Water, water, everywhere...
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
impersonation of Jericho. A year of delays, excuses and sur-
prises, most of the latter being of the "Oh, what now?" variety.
During the course of The Exercise Of Reconstruction there were
two main unavoidable delays, both of which owed their existence
to water sodden wood which required much time and many electric
fans to dry out. (The other delays are the fault of retailers and my
own inertia.) The first of these occurred right after the rubble
of the former walls, tiles, shower doors and shower basin had
been carted away. Inspection of the now exposed interior of
said walls indicated that use of the term "damp" was a forlorn
hope and it was replaced with the more accurate (and aggravating)
"saturated". A problem exacerbated by the fact that the leaky mixer
valve was still running at a trickle because the only way to shut it
down was to shut down water to the entire house. Attempts to
shut off the water and bleed off the valve, for some reason, didn't
work, the trickle returned as soon as the water was turned back
on.
Peeve: Inspection also showed a rather large and dormant nest
of black ants that in the exterior wall that were Less Than
Thrilled with being disturbed. Extreme prejudice was deemed
to be the Only Solution.
Tarps and buckets were employed until the Those Of The Plumbing
Persuasion arrived to deal with it. The buckets needed emptying
thrice daily and, as can be expected, there were time when, despite
best intentions, they overflowed. The Pipe Jockeys were *sup-
posed* to arrive on a Tuesday...instead, I received a phone call
rescheduling for Thursday. I accepted this with bad grace and
promptly called every other firm in the phone book only to discover
no one else could make it out before then. Okay, so it's not as
Dramatic an emergency as water geysering to the ceiling, still
if I was willing to pay Emergency Rates, why wouldn't anyone
appear? I think plumbers that advertise "24 hour service" and
actually deliver on that advertisement are as rare as hen's teeth.
Thursday dawned and the phone rang again. Claims of another
"unavoidable delay" were put forth and the sound of a homeowner
living on her last nerve was the result. The vitriol I spewed in
return should have been sufficient to sweat the pipes without
the use of acetylene.
!Peeve: The Pipe Jockeys, to their dismay, were to be found in
my master bath at 8PM fixing what they had promised to
fix two days earlier.
Once the cascade had ended, there was still the problem of "Water,
Water, Everywhere." Even at my thickest, I know better than to
build on, over or with wet wood. My on-call Rent-A-Guy, who was
replacing the walls, came over to look...and shook his head. Not
this week, probably not next week, maybe not even this month.
He was over a lot during the next 60 days to take the pulse of
drying timbers. Fans and heaters were set up to speed things
along...I'm not sure they speeded up the dry out, but they certainly
gave the electric metre a run for my money.
There came a day, about 45 days into the dry-out, when it was
decided that the subfloor under where the new shower basin would
reside was dry enough to seal. Since the opportunity to replace
shower basins rarely comes (and a Damned Good Thing that is, too),
I took advantage of it to install a larger one...something which
would have been impossible had I still been working within the
confines of the walls of the previous enclosure. No more banging
elbows on walls. I was pleased with the prospect until I started
wrestling with the new one. As I have an aversion to plastic (a
fact I'd be hard pressed to defend given the workout my VISA card
during the process of my labours) the new basin was some sort
of processed stone. Durable, attractive and Heavy As Hell. I
managed to get it halfway down the corridor before it won. The
only thing left to do was call my Rent-A-Guy.
"How much will you charge me to help get this basin in?"
"I'm cheaper than hernia repair."
"Good point. You might as well hook up the drain while you're
here..."
"Oh, shit. I hate your crawl space..."
"That makes two of us, but the building code is pretty
emphatic that the exiting water needs to go down a drain..."
"You're shorter. You can walk down there more easily."
"You're stronger. You can fight the pipes better."
"You're the homeowner..."
"I'm signing the cheque...."
<deep sigh> "You win...but it's going to be a healthy cheque."
"When hasn't it been?"
!Peeve: The thing I like best about this guy is that he usually shows
up within hours rather than days or weeks.
By the time I collapsed on my bed that night, the basin was installed
and plumbed. Silly me, I figured having the two Big Pipe-Related
Things done meant that the rest would be easy. One of these days
I'm going to Know Better.
A fortnight passed and the holidays loomed. In the midst of the
hustle and bustle of the season, it was decreed that the wall studs
were Dry Enough to permit the replacement of the walls. Having
already had one Bad Experience with sheetrock walls, I opted to go
for cementboard. Like the basin, it's durable and Heavy As Sin,
fortunately, a four by four foot sheet of the stuff is within my
ability to, at least, remove from the van. Getting it up and attached
to the walls was the bailiwick of Rent-A-Guy, but how hard can it
be? Put it up there, screw it to the wall studs and Let There Be
Walls.
Hah.
The existing studs weren't strong enough by themselves to handle
the weight. Larger ones had to be sistered in next to them between
the sills. A one day job swiftly became a two day job as I was
pressed into service as a gopher between my home and Home Despot.
Armed with a list and instructions to "Take no shit from them." I
sallied forth in search of timbers and sundry other items. Ob-
streperous sales droids were allowed to speak to the detonating
contractor on the other end of my cell phone and in the fullness of
time, I returned triumphant. At the end of two days, the boards
were up. I had forgotten (I was probably in denial by that point)
that merely getting the wallboard up didn't mean the walls were
finished. They had to be sanded...a week before the holidays found
me and my entire household covered in a cloying grey dust.
?Peeve: Having gotten that far, I was content to rest on my laurels
until after the New Year.
New Year's Day came and went...I decided to get the tiles. The
white Brazilian ones (the main colour) were in stock. No problem
getting five hundred of them. The smaller, blue-green, glass ones
that were the accents were out-of-stock. Wouldn't be in until Feb-
ruary at the earliest. I could have been upset, but found I was
actually grateful for the unanticipated reprieve. I placed the entire
order on hold pending the arrival of the glass accents.
Would that it had actually *been* a reprieve. Somewhere in my
DNA lurks a Type A personality. Since I had a month to wait, I
decided to paint. Once that was done, I determined I hated the
vanity. Out it went and a new one arrived. The old vanity top
looked worn atop the spanking-new vanity, so it too, ended up in
the rubbish. The new top was white (like the vanity), compressed
stone, durable and Heavy...a state of affairs that I was beginning
to accept as the Story Of My Life. Fortunately, I was able to manage
the lifting of it...and, since the plumbing to it was upstairs rather
than under the house, I elected to Do It Myself. Broken fingernails
and blue language ensued, but the drain was eventually connected.
One look at the faucet and I binned it. In for a penny, in for a pound.
The new one was installed with little trouble...assuming that one
regards a broken shut off valve as "little trouble" which, given the
number I've had to replace, I do.
Peeve: During this time I remembered I'd forgotten to order bull-
nosed tiles and had to call to have them added to the order.
This little manoeuvre added another fortnight to the wait.
A month passed. The month became two months. April arrived and
daily phone calls to the Place O' Tiles became routine. After two
solid weeks of calling, arguing and kvetching, the tiles arrived and
I scrambled to pick them up. I suppose, at this point, it goes
without saying that they were Heavy.
Despite having to use a tile cutter, a tool personally designed by
Satan as far as I'm concerned, the operation proceeded smoothly
with no hitches. Within a week, I had the tiles up, grouted and
sealed. Six months from disaster to working shower. Ya-hoo!
Having endured a four month wait for the wall tiles, I figured I'd
better get my order for the floor tiles in *now*. I wanted small
mosaic ones for a number of reasons, the main one being that
they're more forgiving of uneven floors. Who knew that small
mosaic tiles were Out Of Fashion? I finally located a supplier...an
*expensive* supplier who, at least, told me up front that I was
looking at a three to four month wait. I chose the ones I wanted...
the colour was (is) vaguely reminiscent of clover honey. I'm not
crazy enough to put white *anything* on the floor.
The summer passed and I covered the broken, loose existing tiles
with a a throw rug. Out-of-sight, out-of-mind was the order of
business for the summer and I gratefully went with the flow...as
long as the flow wasn't water.
ObReality: Not quite true since I replaced the master bedroom
floor in the interim. What can I say? I get bored easily.
Two weeks ago, I received a call from ObExpensiveTileEmporium
telling me my order was expected within two weeks. Time to rip
out the existing floor, check the underlayment and Prep The Area.
I started out with a glad heart because in the months between
ordering and The Call, I hadn't seen anything untoward.
First thing to go was the vanity and I cursed my competence as
I fought to loosen the drain and water lines. Then the toilet...
relatively easy, once the tank was emptied. Both were (wo)man-
handled out onto the (covered) bedroom floor and I began the task
of removing the remaining floor tiles. It wasn't a particularly
difficult job since most of them were already loose. I did notice
some water spotting on the underlayment around the toilet, but
figured that could be laid at the feet of a tired wax ring. As I
continued, I noticed the spotting was somewhat more extensive
than I had originally thought...in fact, it went all the way under
the vanity to the bedroom wall. Cleaning the broken tiles and
dust away pointed to the culprit. Not the wax ring (oh, no,
nothing *that* easy), but rather the toilet flange itself.
Water damage over who know how long had rotted it away. I
decided to pull up the underlayment before I panicked.
The wet underlayment came away in pieces revealing a wet sub-
floor. Okay, wet isn't Good, but is it delaminating or can it be
dried out? No way to tell without finishing the job, so I plugged
away. Completion showed that the wet subfloor was a trifle
spongy in the soaked areas, but in reasonably good shape otherwise.
Obviously a call to Rent-A-Guy was in order.
"Hi. I have a rotted toilet flange..."
"Oh, Christ, not under the house *again*."
"Hey, the last job was fixing the roof, I don't *only* have
crawl space problems. Anyway, the main concern is the
subfloor..."
"What sort of concern?"
"Concern like 'Will it give way?'"
"I'll be there in a few hours..."
The final determination was that the subfloor, once dry, would
be fine. Of course, the flange had to be replaced. Since it was
getting late and no one wanted to go under the house, it was
decided that the repair could wait until I had all the necessary
materials in hand. The next day found me at Home Despot armed
with a list and I returned with flange, collar, soil pipe. I was
so concerned with the Leaky Loo that I completely forgot about
purchasing new underlayment. A minor problem since, once
again, the wood had to dry out. Once again, fans were pressed
into service and once again, my electric metre is doing a
financial tarantella.
The repair of said flange is scheduled for Monday as is the
replacement of the underlayment. I went over yesterday and
picked up the floor tiles which, surprise, actually arrived as
scheduled. I also managed to remember to get the adhesive
and grout. (I still have to get the underlayment...that's to-
morrow's task) If all goes well, within a fortnight, I will
have a completely functioning master bathroom...and if it doesn't
go well, at the very least, I'm going to get the damned toilet
out of my bedroom. One year, almost to the day, from when
All Hell Broke Loose At 2AM.
?Peeve: The dog seems confused that she can't drink out of
it at the moment.
Yours, waterlogged from homeowner hell,
Deirdre
Terry Austin
<Toilet flange>
> Since it was
>getting late and no one wanted to go under the house,
WFT? Toilet flanges are not installed from the bottom. They're installed
from the top. Especially the new kind, with the rubber seal. Even if the ell
is shot, the floor's up anyway. There's no reason to go under the house. It
can't be *done* from underneath.
--
Terry Austin <tau...@hyperbooks.com>
http://www.hyperbooks.com/
Metacreator character software now available
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
Terry Austin wrote:
>
> Deirdre Sholto-Douglas <fi...@enteract.com> wrote:
>
> <Toilet flange>
>
> > Since it was
> >getting late and no one wanted to go under the house,
>
> WFT? Toilet flanges are not installed from the bottom. They're installed
> from the top. Especially the new kind, with the rubber seal. Even if the ell
> is shot, the floor's up anyway. There's no reason to go under the house. It
> can't be *done* from underneath.
The floor *isn't* up...the underlayment is up (and out) but the
subfloor is still firmly attached to its (steel) joists. That's
the main reason I was so concerned about the delamination
state of that 1" thick bit of plywood...pulling it up and trying
to re-anchor wood to steel is a bitch. Been there, done that
and I'm never doing it again if it can be avoided.
I don't know about toilet flanges on the Left Coast, but the one
in this house is the metal ring (the flange itself) which is attached
(permanently, one hopes) to a PVC collar about two inches in
length which, ultimately, fits over the soil pipe. The problem,
of course, is that there is no way to easily remove the *old*
flange setup without also removing the little bit of pipe that
the new collar slips over...Black Swan PCV cement being some-
what on the tenacious side, a hacksaw is usually the only way
to manage it.
Everything except the metal ring of the flange itself is under the
house and since cutting the pipe shortens it, it's easier by far to
shorten the soil pipe by six inches and patch in a new piece of
3 inch PVC pipe between two collars (the one on the flange and
a new $0.97 from Home Despot). It's a lot of work dealing with
the stacks and drains in this house compliments of how the
builder originally cut corners and, I suspect, what's common
practice for this area. When this is completed, both soil pipes
will have been replumbed and, since I had all the drain pipes
replaced last April (meaning I replumbed everything on *my*
side of the main waste outlet which is why I'm so well ac-
quainted with PVC cement), I should be in the clear, plumbing-
wise, for a decade or so.
!Peeve: The drains are plumbed in a very efficient manner
which is probably one of the only things the Builder
From Hell did right. The last house, since it was old
and used steam radiators, was a plumbing nightmare.
?Peeve: Today I cut the hole in the underlayment for said soil
pipes...with a damned drywall saw since it was the only
one small enough to fit in and cut a circular hole. It
probably goes without saying that the blade now needs
replacement.
Peeve: Santa is ignoring my request (for three years) for a
sabre saw or a Saz-all or something of that ilk. If I
get small kitchen appliances instead of power tools
this year, something other than a turkey is going to
be gutted and roasted.
Deirdre
Robert Sneddon
<fi...@enteract.com> writes
>
>Peeve: Santa is ignoring my request (for three years) for a
> sabre saw or a Saz-all or something of that ilk. If I
> get small kitchen appliances instead of power tools
> this year, something other than a turkey is going to
> be gutted and roasted.
Your power tools collection will only be complete just after you have
finished all the jobs that you really really needed said power tools
for. And not before. It's in the Constitution or summat.
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
Robert Sneddon wrote:
>
> In article <3D85434F...@enteract.com>, Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
> <fi...@enteract.com> writes
> >
> >Peeve: Santa is ignoring my request (for three years) for a
> > sabre saw or a Saz-all or something of that ilk. If I
> > get small kitchen appliances instead of power tools
> > this year, something other than a turkey is going to
> > be gutted and roasted.
>
> Your power tools collection will only be complete just after you have
> finished all the jobs that you really really needed said power tools
> for. And not before. It's in the Constitution or summat.
Meaning my final power tool is going to be the backhoe which
digs my grave? I'll *never* be finished with all the jobs around
here...just about the time one is completed, six others crop up.
And I've yet to start *any* project that didn't become a) more
complicated b) more expensive and c) more time consuming
than the initial plans indicated...this usually translates into:
"New tools for every project".
Peeve: Needing a gizmo so specialised that the likelihood of
ever using it again on a different project is all but nil.
Of course, those sorts of tools are always the most
expensive.
Deirdre
Ernest J. King
>Peeve: Needing a gizmo so specialised that the likelihood of
> ever using it again on a different project is all but nil.
> Of course, those sorts of tools are always the most
> expensive.
Most people rent those types of tools. Look into renting
the expensive tools you might need once every blue moon instead of
buying them.
- Ernest
Steve Daniels
<fi...@enteract.com> wrote:
>Peeve: Needing a gizmo so specialised that the likelihood of
> ever using it again on a different project is all but nil.
> Of course, those sorts of tools are always the most
> expensive.
Contractors rent them; you can too.
Nate Nagel
You're not serious, are you?
nate
(a man is measured not by the size of his bank account, but by the
size of his toolbox!)
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
No one, that I know of, rents oddball spanners.
Deirdre
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
> There's a Tool Shop recipro-saw on sale for $40 at Menards. A steal. Give
> it to yourself for Christmas if nobody else will.
>
> Everybody I know who lives in your town has the same complaints about
> plumbing. Something about the lax building codes and inspectors in your
> neck of the woods.
I suspect a lot of the plumbing complaints may actually be
water quality complaints. The 'burb has (had) two water
suppliers. Those of us on the east side were on the village
wells and had fairly decent quality, those on the west had
Citizen's Utilities and were constantly dealing with smell
and rust. For the past couple years everyone has been on
lake water which means that the overall quality is good,
but the folks on the west side, compliments years of crappy
water running through their pipes, are having to replace
plumbing because good water through bad pipes equals bad
water. Since I've always had good water, my lines in are
clear, the reason for replumbing all the drains last spring
was because one had clogged by the main stack under the
house and it was just as easy to do all as to do one.
Most of the water problems I've encountered owe their
existence to simple Age Of Components and 1970's work-
manship on the part of manufacturers. A middle of the
road mixer valve made during that period is going to have
a shorter life span than a middle quality one made in the
1950's (or 1920's since that's how old the plumbing was
on the old place). And I suspect even the upper end products
of today are less durable than the mid quality stuff of 30
years ago.
The pipes, overall, in this place are of fairly good quality
and both the copper lines in and the PVC lines out were
installed by someone who knew what he was doing...un-
fortunately craftmanship in installation can't compensate
for workmanship in manufacture. That little detail is
being rectified by me.
The electrical, otoh, is a different story...
Deirdre
Steve Daniels
<fi...@enteract.com> wrote:
>
>
>Steve Daniels wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 04:12:43 -0500, Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
>> <fi...@enteract.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Peeve: Needing a gizmo so specialised that the likelihood of
>> > ever using it again on a different project is all but nil.
>> > Of course, those sorts of tools are always the most
>> > expensive.
>>
>> Contractors rent them; you can too.
>
>No one, that I know of, rents oddball spanners.
Oh, I'm sorry. I had no idea your oddball was out of adjustment. It
could be that replacing it will be less expensive than adjusting it.
After all, there are so may oddballs.
Terry Austin
>
>
>Terry Austin wrote:
>>
>> Deirdre Sholto-Douglas <fi...@enteract.com> wrote:
>>
>> <Toilet flange>
>>
>> > Since it was
>> >getting late and no one wanted to go under the house,
>>
>> WFT? Toilet flanges are not installed from the bottom. They're installed
>> from the top. Especially the new kind, with the rubber seal. Even if the ell
>> is shot, the floor's up anyway. There's no reason to go under the house. It
>> can't be *done* from underneath.
>
>The floor *isn't* up...the underlayment is up (and out) but the
>subfloor is still firmly attached to its (steel) joists. That's
>the main reason I was so concerned about the delamination
>state of that 1" thick bit of plywood...pulling it up and trying
>to re-anchor wood to steel is a bitch. Been there, done that
>and I'm never doing it again if it can be avoided.
Nevertheless, toilet flanges are installed from the top, not the bottom. And
always have been, from the days of lead and Oakum(tm), a hundred years ago.
They *can't* be installed from underneath.
>
>I don't know about toilet flanges on the Left Coast, but the one
>in this house is the metal ring (the flange itself) which is attached
>(permanently, one hopes) to a PVC collar
Ah. That explains it. Plastic drain pipe. And here, I thought I'd put that
concept permanently out of my mind forever. You'll burn in hell forever for
reminding me it exists.
I withdraw my comment.
Free advice, and remember, I've done professional plumbing: Do *not* put in
a plastic flange that glues on. Spend the extra $15 and buy a cast iron one,
the kind with a rubber seal that compresses in with several bolts. It'll
last forever, and if it doesn't, it can be changed from the top.
> about two inches in
>length which, ultimately, fits over the soil pipe. The problem,
>of course, is that there is no way to easily remove the *old*
>flange setup without also removing the little bit of pipe that
>the new collar slips over...Black Swan PCV cement being some-
>what on the tenacious side, a hacksaw is usually the only way
>to manage it.
Yes. You are correct. If it's ABS (black pipe), it can be removed with a
chisel, in pieces as wide as the chisel blade at a time, but that will
easily take several times as long as changing out the ell. If it's actual
PVC (white pipe, usually, I think - it's not allowed on the left coast for
DWV, Drain Waste and Vent, use), then it's one solid piece of pipe.
>
>Everything except the metal ring of the flange itself is under the
>house and since cutting the pipe shortens it, it's easier by far to
>shorten the soil pipe by six inches and patch in a new piece of
>3 inch PVC pipe between two collars (the one on the flange and
>a new $0.97 from Home Despot).
If you plan to be in the house more than a few years, no, no, no, no, do
*not* do it this way. Replace the piece of pipe that comes through the floor
entirely - if it's the actual ell, replace it anyway. Then buy the
compression-style, cast iron flange. Do it once, do it right, and your
grandchildren will thank you when they finally have to change it.
If you're not going to be in the house much longer, cover the floor with
epoxy, and bolt the toilet directly to it and say to hell with it. (I've
seen basically that done, BTW. Worked for a number of years.)
>It's a lot of work dealing with
>the stacks and drains in this house compliments of how the
>builder originally cut corners and, I suspect, what's common
>practice for this area.
If it's anything like around here, possession of a contractor's license is
absolute proof of both corruption and incompetence. Does your county have a
history of manslaughter convictions from workmanship so shoddy it kills
people?
>When this is completed, both soil pipes
>will have been replumbed and, since I had all the drain pipes
>replaced last April (meaning I replumbed everything on *my*
>side of the main waste outlet which is why I'm so well ac-
>quainted with PVC cement), I should be in the clear, plumbing-
>wise, for a decade or so.
Just avoid plastic toilet flanges. I've seen them last only a few years. The
ones with sheet metal are worse.
>
>!Peeve: The drains are plumbed in a very efficient manner
> which is probably one of the only things the Builder
> From Hell did right. The last house, since it was old
> and used steam radiators, was a plumbing nightmare.
That helps.
>
>?Peeve: Today I cut the hole in the underlayment for said soil
> pipes...with a damned drywall saw since it was the only
> one small enough to fit in and cut a circular hole. It
> probably goes without saying that the blade now needs
> replacement.
They're cheap. Far cheaper than a contractor with a sawzall.
>
>Peeve: Santa is ignoring my request (for three years) for a
> sabre saw or a Saz-all or something of that ilk.
Be *very* careful with a sawzall. That 6" reciprocating blade has a real
taste for human flesh. I've met a disturbing number of plumbers missing all
their left little finger, the ring finger on the same hand to the first
knuckle, and the middle finger to the second knuckle. They use those on
Junkyard Wars to cut cars apart for a reason.
>If I
> get small kitchen appliances instead of power tools
> this year, something other than a turkey is going to
> be gutted and roasted.
>
Remind me to be cautious about accepting dinner invitations.
Terry Austin
>
>
>Robert Sneddon wrote:
>>
>> In article <3D85434F...@enteract.com>, Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
>> <fi...@enteract.com> writes
>> >
>> >Peeve: Santa is ignoring my request (for three years) for a
>> > sabre saw or a Saz-all or something of that ilk. If I
>> > get small kitchen appliances instead of power tools
>> > this year, something other than a turkey is going to
>> > be gutted and roasted.
>>
>> Your power tools collection will only be complete just after you have
>> finished all the jobs that you really really needed said power tools
>> for. And not before. It's in the Constitution or summat.
>
>Meaning my final power tool is going to be the backhoe which
>digs my grave? I'll *never* be finished with all the jobs around
>here...just about the time one is completed, six others crop up.
>And I've yet to start *any* project that didn't become a) more
>complicated b) more expensive and c) more time consuming
>than the initial plans indicated...this usually translates into:
>"New tools for every project".
Not everyone would consider that a peeve. I think it's a guy thing.
>
>Peeve: Needing a gizmo so specialised that the likelihood of
> ever using it again on a different project is all but nil.
> Of course, those sorts of tools are always the most
> expensive.
Cost/benefit analysis: Is it more expensive than a contractor who already
has one?
Terry Austin
>On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 04:12:43 -0500, Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
><fi...@enteract.com> wrote:
>
>>Meaning my final power tool is going to be the backhoe which
>>digs my grave? I'll *never* be finished with all the jobs around
>>here...just about the time one is completed, six others crop up.
>
>It's called "being a homeowner". There's no such thing as a simple
>project, despite what the Bob Vila's of the world would have you think.
>Any maintenance performed on a house should be considered "provocative".
>Either you will discover 3 new things that need to be fixed, or dealing
>with one problem will aggravate several others.
>
>Plumbing is the canonical example of this. There's absolutely,
>positively NO SUCH THING as a SIMPLE plumbing job outside of changing
>those silly little aerator gadgets.
I've seen that turn into a nightmarish hell, too. They're usually made of
very thing metal, with threads machined in to them. If the threads snap off
from corrosion - and they will - you're looking at replacing the faucet.
>If you actually touch pipe, it's
>gonna get ugly.
Yes. The alternative, however, is generally worse.
>
>Peeve: Round here, the water supply lines are at least 50 years old, of
>unlined black iron. What does this mean to me? Even though almost
>every piece of galvanized pipe inside the house has been replaced with
>copper, I still can't keep cold-water shutoffs from deteriorating to the
>point of non-functionality within six months. They all accrete a layer
>of rust in the internals and the soft brass bits corrode. I might as
>well not bother installing them any longer, as none of them will
>actually fully shut off within 6-8 months after they're installed.
Two thoughts: First, dig up the line in the yard, and put in a dielectric
fitting of some sort. The best one is at least six inches of red brass pipe,
but a dielectric union is a passable substitute. This will eliminate
electrolysis, which will produce what you describe.
Second, check into the new all plastic, quarter turn shutoff valves. You
have to be careful installing them, but they are not prone to what you
describe.
Alternately, just say fuck it, and buy a water meter key. If that don't
work, you don't have to pay for fixing it.
>
>Peeve*2: Not finding this out until you've disconnected the compression
>fitting on the outflow side of the shutoff, and having to run from the
>top floor to the basement to cut the main supply.
That certainly sucks.
Terry Austin
Try a specialty retailer. If it's a plumbing tool, try a plumbing store.
They'll have things that rental yards never wood. If that doesn't work, try
a neighborhood Ace Hardware.
Citizen Ted
<fi...@enteract.com> wrote:
>It's been almost a year since my master bath walls did their
>impersonation of Jericho. A year of delays, excuses and sur-
>prises, most of the latter being of the "Oh, what now?" variety.
<snip water damage tale of woe>
It just so happens that I am employed by the world's premier
manufacturer of restorative drying equipment. We wrote the book -
literally - on structural drying. I am certified by the IICRC as an
expert in Applied Structural Drying.
I'm sorry you had to suffer fools before getting relief.
You'll be sadder to know that 90% of your problems could have been
avoided.
Though it's too late to give Diedre much helpful advice, it
may one day prove beneficial to someone here for me to wax pedantic
about my knowledge on the subject...
First off: Class 1 water damage is fixable! The most
troublesome aspect of a Class 1 damage is mold remediation. The key is
SPEED. As soon as you find a water damage, call a water restoration
team IMMEDIATELY. The first 24 hours are critical. Don't take "no" for
an answer. Call until someone comes. A good restorer will get up at
2am and come inspect your place. (Yes, I know folks who do this!)
You need to start extracting and drying all affected areas
immediately. This is done by creating a "whirlwind" of air movement in
the affected area. Dehumidifiers should always be used to remove the
moisture being sent aloft by evaporation. The temp should be elevated
so the air will hold more moisture and the dehu's will operate more
efficiently. (Don't argue with me inre heat = mold; I will smite you
mightily!).
Believe it or not, in most Class 1 water damages, most
materials can be dried in-place with very little intrusive
reconstruction required. Drywall will dry up and often leave no marks.
Crowned or cupped hardwood flooring will lay back down when dried
properly. Areas of insulation behind walls can be effectively dried
and freed of mold. Carpet and even carpet padding can be dried without
being "floated". Furniture and sundries can be similarly dried - in
place!
Of course, some things will be lost - saturated particle board
furniture, some vinyl floors and some carpet pads are a definite loss
every time. But I have seen with my own eyes the value of fast,
aggressive drying in a water loss. If you act very quickly and get a
handle on the problem right away, you can save thousands of dollars
and weeks of inconvenience.
- TR
BTW: I don't just work for the company; I use its products,
too! Two months ago, the flat upstairs had a bad fitting on the tub
drain, resulting in a warm rain in my livingroom. I caught it
immediately, acted immediately and lost NOTHING - everything dried
in-place with no loss. After a touch-up paint job on the ceiling, I'm
right as...rain.
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
Terry Austin wrote:
>
> Deirdre Sholto-Douglas <fi...@enteract.com> wrote:
> >The floor *isn't* up...the underlayment is up (and out) but the
> >subfloor is still firmly attached to its (steel) joists. That's
> >the main reason I was so concerned about the delamination
> >state of that 1" thick bit of plywood...pulling it up and trying
> >to re-anchor wood to steel is a bitch. Been there, done that
> >and I'm never doing it again if it can be avoided.
> Nevertheless, toilet flanges are installed from the top, not the bottom. And
> always have been, from the days of lead and Oakum(tm), a hundred years ago.
> They *can't* be installed from underneath.
Conceded the actual round part of the flange is above the
subfloor/underlayment, but the pipe to which it connects
is not, hence my comment that installing a toilet flange
requires a trip under the house.
> Ah. That explains it. Plastic drain pipe. And here, I thought I'd put that
> concept permanently out of my mind forever. You'll burn in hell forever for
> reminding me it exists.
I assure you, I'll be burning for much more interesting reasons
than that.
> Free advice, and remember, I've done professional plumbing: Do *not* put in
> a plastic flange that glues on. Spend the extra $15 and buy a cast iron one,
> the kind with a rubber seal that compresses in with several bolts. It'll
> last forever, and if it doesn't, it can be changed from the top.
<boggle> Plastic? I saw one of those in the store and was astonished
that anyone would be dense enough to consider it. The replacement
is iron, enameled iron, for what that's worth (I figured it might slow
down rusting) and has what appears to be (but probably isn't) butyl
rubber for a seal.
> Yes. You are correct. If it's ABS (black pipe), it can be removed with a
> chisel, in pieces as wide as the chisel blade at a time, but that will
> easily take several times as long as changing out the ell. If it's actual
> PVC (white pipe, usually, I think - it's not allowed on the left coast for
> DWV, Drain Waste and Vent, use), then it's one solid piece of pipe.
White pipe it is and I suspect the reason that it's more common
here is that things in the crawl space freeze. A clogged drain
pipe that freezes and bursts is a disaster whenever it happens,
but it's a real nightmare if it isn't something that can be replaced
quickly and economically. The incoming water lines, which are
copper, run parallel to the furnace ductwork so baring a furnace
failure, the water lines are unlikely to freeze and subsequently
burst.
The waste stack, however, owing to where the village ran the
sewer lines to the house, is in a spot which necessitates
drain pipes running in areas where there's no radiant heat to
compensate for January temperatures. Frozen drains are
not uncommon in this neighbourhood but, so far, diligent
maintenance has spared me the hassle of dealing with grey
or waste water flooding spewing all over the crawlspace
when it's -20F.
> If you plan to be in the house more than a few years, no, no, no, no, do
Hell, I plan to pay off the mortgage and be buried in the
back garden.
> *not* do it this way. Replace the piece of pipe that comes through the floor
> entirely - if it's the actual ell, replace it anyway. Then buy the
> compression-style, cast iron flange. Do it once, do it right, and your
> grandchildren will thank you when they finally have to change it.
Maybe so, but proper repair can wait until spring when there's
more time to deal with it. Right now, I need a working toilet
in that room and to get the floor tiles in, grouted and sealed
so I can forget about leaks and draughts for a while. And the
reason getting it done rapidly is such a major issue is owing
to a chimney flashing in need of attention, firewood in need
of stacking, weatherstripping that wants replacing, storm
windows that need to go up (screens that need to come down),
gutters full of maple leaves that have to be purged so they
don't form ice dams and a minor, albeit awkward-balance-on-
a-ladder, board repair on the north gable.
I've got a lot to accomplish before the weather turns bad and
almost all of it is outdoors.
> If it's anything like around here, possession of a contractor's license is
> absolute proof of both corruption and incompetence. Does your county have a
> history of manslaughter convictions from workmanship so shoddy it kills
> people?
Not that I'm aware of. Nor does it have convictions from home-
owners killing builders, although I'm sure that there are many
people who would love to throttle the bastards if only they
could get their hands on them.
I'm fortunate, I've been here long enough to have repaired most
of the larger problems. The roof decking was replaced, the
insulation increased, wiring redone, furnace and A/C replaced,
appliances, with the exception of the 'fridge, replaced, wooden
garage door replaced with a steel insulated one, drains replumbed
and now, master bath and bedroom redone. I still have to con-
tend with the peeling paint on the soffits and eaves and should
probably replace the shutters as well as paint the exterior, but
that's waited this long, it can wait a bit longer. I don't feel like
scraping paint. Eventually I'll have to replace the windows, but
if I wait long enough I might get lucky and have a tornado drop
by just long enough to have that done on the insurance company's
dime.
> >Peeve: Santa is ignoring my request (for three years) for a
> > sabre saw or a Saz-all or something of that ilk.
> Be *very* careful with a sawzall. That 6" reciprocating blade has a real
> taste for human flesh. I've met a disturbing number of plumbers missing all
I expect so, but I have the dubious distinction of being
extremely careful when I work (compliments of spending my
professional hours in a lab full of mean, nasty things that
would love to either melt me, poison me or dismember me)
I've never even hit my thumb with a hammer while driving
in a nail.
> get small kitchen appliances instead of power tools
> > this year, something other than a turkey is going to
> > be gutted and roasted.
> Remind me to be cautious about accepting dinner invitations.
Just come bearing power tools and you'll be perfectly safe.
Deirdre
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
Citizen Ted wrote:
I'm sorry you had to suffer fools before getting relief.
> You'll be sadder to know that 90% of your problems could have been
> avoided.
Probably, but the leak apparently popped while I was sunning
myself down in the Keys...by the time I got home the damage
was done and the weight of the tiles pulled down the walls.
And, since it was all occurring behind the walls, there was
nothing obvious from my side...I might have notice a drip
when I went down later that month to close the cellar vents
for the winter, but the walls had a different schedule.
A pain in the arse, to be sure, but a better excuse for getting
rid of tiles one hates (off white with silver-grey speckles)
and a horrid, acrylic shower basin has yet to be invented.
Deirdre
E Varden
>
>
> No one, that I know of, rents oddball spanners.
>
> Deirdre
Watch late-night teevee and see ads for one-size does-all wrenches and
twisty gizmos. ("And if you roder within the next fifteen seconds,
we'll also include...")
Alan Gore
> Believe it or not, in most Class 1 water damages, most
>materials can be dried in-place with very little intrusive
>reconstruction required. Drywall will dry up and often leave no marks.
>Crowned or cupped hardwood flooring will lay back down when dried
>properly. Areas of insulation behind walls can be effectively dried
>and freed of mold. Carpet and even carpet padding can be dried without
>being "floated". Furniture and sundries can be similarly dried - in
>place!
You're right about the air movement, but when our place was flooded
out in March, 2001, when a faucet suply pipe in one bathroom split
while we were out of town, the restorers - at the insistance of the
insurance company - were somewhat more radical in their approach. The
first 24 hours was spent pumping out the 3-10" of water in the house).
They removed all carpet, then removed all drywall in the house up to
waist height (the cats loved actually being able to walk through the
walls). Then followed ten days of dryout with a houseful of
iundustrial-size fans. That was followed by redrywalling and
repainting, new floors, and a houseful of new furniture. Total bill,
including six weeks at a Marriott for us: $65K.
ag...@qwest.net | "Giving money and power to the government
Alan Gore | is like giving whiskey and car keys
Software For PC's, Inc. | to teenaged boys" - P. J. O'Rourke
http://www.alangore.com
Kevin S. Wilson
<tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
<snip>
>Free advice, and remember, I've done professional plumbing:
<snip some more to get to the heart of the matter>
>If it's anything like around here, possession of a contractor's license is
>absolute proof of both corruption and incompetence.
So is your contractor's license still current, Terry?
--
Kevin S. Wilson
Tech Writer at a University Somewhere in Idaho
"You can safely ignore Kevin in order to
maximise life's experience." --A. Loon, in alt.religion.kibology
Terry Austin
> On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 18:33:53 -0700, Terry Austin
> <tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Free advice, and remember, I've done professional plumbing:
>
> <snip some more to get to the heart of the matter>
>
>> If it's anything like around here, possession of a contractor's
>> license is absolute proof of both corruption and incompetence.
>
> So is your contractor's license still current, Terry?
Never got a license. Wasn't willing to pay the bribes.
Terry Austin
Terry Austin
>> Ah. That explains it. Plastic drain pipe. And here, I thought I'd
>> put that concept permanently out of my mind forever. You'll burn in
>> hell forever for reminding me it exists.
>
> I assure you, I'll be burning for much more interesting reasons
> than that.
All things considered, I'll conced the point. While you may not succeed
in proving it, the mere thought of the attempt is sufficient for me to
make a hasty withdrawal.
>
>> Free advice, and remember, I've done professional plumbing: Do *not*
>> put in a plastic flange that glues on. Spend the extra $15 and buy a
>> cast iron one, the kind with a rubber seal that compresses in with
>> several bolts. It'll last forever, and if it doesn't, it can be
>> changed from the top.
>
> <boggle> Plastic? I saw one of those in the store and was astonished
> that anyone would be dense enough to consider it. The replacement
> is iron, enameled iron, for what that's worth (I figured it might slow
> down rusting) and has what appears to be (but probably isn't) butyl
> rubber for a seal.
That's the one you want. I'm assuming by "iron" you mean "cast
iron" (or something that looks like it, anyway), and not thin, cheesy
sheet metal.
>
>> Yes. You are correct. If it's ABS (black pipe), it can be removed
>> with a chisel, in pieces as wide as the chisel blade at a time, but
>> that will easily take several times as long as changing out the ell.
>> If it's actual PVC (white pipe, usually, I think - it's not allowed
>> on the left coast for DWV, Drain Waste and Vent, use), then it's one
>> solid piece of pipe.
>
> White pipe it is and I suspect the reason that it's more common
> here is that things in the crawl space freeze. A clogged drain
> pipe that freezes and bursts is a disaster whenever it happens,
> but it's a real nightmare if it isn't something that can be replaced
> quickly and economically.
ABS is significantly cheaper than PVC. It's a foamed interior
to the pipe wall, and not nearly as strong. Can't be used for
pressure pipe at all, which is probably why it's used where
freezing might be an issue. I suspect it's not allowed in
DWV here because of simple color coding. Southern
California seems to like color coding.
>The incoming water lines, which are
> copper, run parallel to the furnace ductwork so baring a furnace
> failure, the water lines are unlikely to freeze and subsequently
> burst.
>
> The waste stack, however, owing to where the village ran the
> sewer lines to the house, is in a spot which necessitates
> drain pipes running in areas where there's no radiant heat to
> compensate for January temperatures. Frozen drains are
> not uncommon in this neighbourhood but, so far, diligent
> maintenance has spared me the hassle of dealing with grey
> or waste water flooding spewing all over the crawlspace
> when it's -20F.
Count your blessings. Waste leaks are not pleasant. You
do not wate a three foot high piles of seweag in the back
yard.
>
>> If you plan to be in the house more than a few years, no, no, no,
>> no, do
>
> Hell, I plan to pay off the mortgage and be buried in the
> back garden.
Nothing wrong with that. 'Prolly piss the city off royally,
which is a worthy goal in and of itself.
>
>> *not* do it this way. Replace the piece of pipe that comes through
>> the floor entirely - if it's the actual ell, replace it anyway. Then
>> buy the compression-style, cast iron flange. Do it once, do it
>> right, and your grandchildren will thank you when they finally have
>> to change it.
>
> Maybe so, but proper repair can wait until spring when there's
> more time to deal with it.
I guess I have a pathological hatred of doing the same job
twice.
> Right now, I need a working toilet
> in that room and to get the floor tiles in, grouted and sealed
> so I can forget about leaks and draughts for a while.
Note that doing a toilet flange repair wrong is guaranteed
to involve taking the flooring up again later. But it sounds like
you're doing it right anyway.
>And the
> reason getting it done rapidly is such a major issue is owing
> to a chimney flashing in need of attention, firewood in need
> of stacking, weatherstripping that wants replacing, storm
> windows that need to go up (screens that need to come down),
> gutters full of maple leaves that have to be purged so they
> don't form ice dams and a minor, albeit awkward-balance-on-
> a-ladder, board repair on the north gable.
Life's a bitch, and homeowning is living hell. But you knew that.
>
> I've got a lot to accomplish before the weather turns bad and
> almost all of it is outdoors.
I sometimes forget that other parts of the world have more than
one season.
>
>> If it's anything like around here, possession of a contractor's
>> license is absolute proof of both corruption and incompetence. Does
>> your county have a history of manslaughter convictions from
>> workmanship so shoddy it kills people?
>
> Not that I'm aware of.
OC does.
>Nor does it have convictions from home-
> owners killing builders, although I'm sure that there are many
> people who would love to throttle the bastards if only they
> could get their hands on them.
Heh. Try to find 'em around here. I'm convinced that most
of them skipped the country with the money a week after
the bribe checks to the building inspectors cleared the bank.
>
> I'm fortunate, I've been here long enough to have repaired most
> of the larger problems. The roof decking was replaced, the
> insulation increased, wiring redone, furnace and A/C replaced,
> appliances, with the exception of the 'fridge, replaced, wooden
> garage door replaced with a steel insulated one, drains replumbed
> and now, master bath and bedroom redone. I still have to con-
> tend with the peeling paint on the soffits and eaves and should
> probably replace the shutters as well as paint the exterior, but
> that's waited this long, it can wait a bit longer. I don't feel like
> scraping paint. Eventually I'll have to replace the windows, but
> if I wait long enough I might get lucky and have a tornado drop
> by just long enough to have that done on the insurance company's
> dime.
Oddly enough, that's not the first time I've heard someone
pine whistfully for a tornado.
>
>>> Peeve: Santa is ignoring my request (for three years) for a
>>> sabre saw or a Saz-all or something of that ilk.
>> Be *very* careful with a sawzall. That 6" reciprocating blade has a
>> real taste for human flesh. I've met a disturbing number of plumbers
>> missing all
>
> I expect so, but I have the dubious distinction of being
> extremely careful when I work (compliments of spending my
> professional hours in a lab full of mean, nasty things that
> would love to either melt me, poison me or dismember me)
I'll conceed that point, as well.
> I've never even hit my thumb with a hammer while driving
> in a nail.
Impressive. Nevertheless, one can never be too careful with
a sawzall. Overconfidence is rarely forgiven, and all.
>
> > get small kitchen appliances instead of power tools
>>> this year, something other than a turkey is going to
>>> be gutted and roasted.
>> Remind me to be cautious about accepting dinner invitations.
>
> Just come bearing power tools and you'll be perfectly safe.
>
Heh. I got in to computer work to get away from power tools,
and the sort of people who typically like to play with them.
Terry Austin
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
Terry Austin wrote:
> Deirdre Sholto-Douglas wrote:
> > I assure you, I'll be burning for much more interesting reasons
> > than that.
> All things considered, I'll conced the point. While you may not succeed
> in proving it, the mere thought of the attempt is sufficient for me to
> make a hasty withdrawal.
If you talk to my neighbourhood bible-thumpers, I'm already
well on the way.
> That's the one you want. I'm assuming by "iron" you mean "cast
> iron" (or something that looks like it, anyway), and not thin, cheesy
> sheet metal.
I presume it's cast. It's heavy and has a texture that is
probably what my iron frying pans would look like if someone
took the time to paint enamel over their surface.
> Count your blessings. Waste leaks are not pleasant. You
> do not wate a three foot high piles of seweag in the back
> yard.
Truthfully, I don't want human waste, even in small piles,
anywhere near my property. As a microbiologist the oral-
fecal route of transmission is one of the few things that
gives me creeping horrors.
> > Hell, I plan to pay off the mortgage and be buried in the
> > back garden.
> Nothing wrong with that. 'Prolly piss the city off royally,
> which is a worthy goal in and of itself.
Not to mention that the garden will probably appreciate
the shot of trace elements.
> > Maybe so, but proper repair can wait until spring when there's
> > more time to deal with it.
> I guess I have a pathological hatred of doing the same job
> twice.
As do I, but right now I have a worse aversion to finishing the
last of the outdoor chores in the snow/ice/wind.
> > I've got a lot to accomplish before the weather turns bad and
> > almost all of it is outdoors.
> I sometimes forget that other parts of the world have more than
> one season.
Well, Chicago has two: Hot/humid and cold/wet. I quite like
the extremes as long as I'm reasonably prepared to endure them.
Nothing pisses me off worse than having to do a large repair
because of I missed doing something small. Gutters, ice dams
and ceiling repairs come to mine fairly readily.
> OC does.
OC? Orange County?
> Oddly enough, that's not the first time I've heard someone
> pine whistfully for a tornado.
I've been wishing for one ever since the one that took the
roof left the sliding door with the broken seal (hence moisture)
between the panes intact. I was hoping when I had the patio
jack hammered out that a piece of rubble would fly and the
contractor's insurance would cover it. Hell, the board
supporting it rotted through, it ended up on a 20 degree cant
and all the repair guy did was levre it up, replace the board
and set it back into place...it suspect that blasted door is
going to outlive me.
Peeve: Not replacing it because I'm not yet certain if the
door is going to remain in that spot or, ultimately,
be moved to where the dining room windows currently
reside. Whatever happens, the next set of doors are
*not* going to be on runners.
> > I've never even hit my thumb with a hammer while driving
> > in a nail.
> Impressive. Nevertheless, one can never be too careful with
> a sawzall. Overconfidence is rarely forgiven, and all.
At the rate Santa is listening, the likelihood of getting one
is slim anyway.
> Heh. I got in to computer work to get away from power tools,
> and the sort of people who typically like to play with them.
I quite like power tools...particularly of the scientific variety.
X-ray diffractometres, inductively coupled plasma atomic
emission spectra analysers and synchrotrons are some of the
neatest power tools on earth.
Peeve: Having to update my radiation training cert. Not hard,
just a nuisance to accomplish during a period at work
when I'm pressed for time.
Giga!Peeve: Magnetotactic bacteria. These guys are *fun* to
play with.
Deirdre
Citizen Ted
>enoi...@dumpthisattbi.com (Citizen Ted) wrote:
>
>> Believe it or not, in most Class 1 water damages, most
>>materials can be dried in-place with very little intrusive
>>reconstruction required. Drywall will dry up and often leave no marks.
>>Crowned or cupped hardwood flooring will lay back down when dried
>>properly. Areas of insulation behind walls can be effectively dried
>>and freed of mold. Carpet and even carpet padding can be dried without
>>being "floated". Furniture and sundries can be similarly dried - in
>>place!
>
>You're right about the air movement, but when our place was flooded
>out in March, 2001, when a faucet suply pipe in one bathroom split
>while we were out of town, the restorers - at the insistance of the
>insurance company - were somewhat more radical in their approach. The
>first 24 hours was spent pumping out the 3-10" of water in the house).
>They removed all carpet, then removed all drywall in the house up to
>waist height (the cats loved actually being able to walk through the
>walls). Then followed ten days of dryout with a houseful of
>iundustrial-size fans. That was followed by redrywalling and
>repainting, new floors, and a houseful of new furniture. Total bill,
>including six weeks at a Marriott for us: $65K.
Your insurance company did what they thought was prudent and
went for the slash-and-burn approach in an attempt to stave off any
mold claims you may make in the future. Mold is a serious problem
after water damage. Left uncontrolled, it will literally consume your
house. In the case of Class 3 (sewage) mold infestation, the only
positive fix is to burn the place to the ground.
Insurance companies are becoming increasingly aware of
in-place drying techniques. They tend to balk at this technique,
usually because it requires so much hardware. The drying must be fast,
so you need assloads of turbodryers (we prefer not to use the F word
[fan]), many dehumidifiers and constant monitoring and control of the
environment (via something called psychrometry). That's where I come
on: I'm the company's thermohygrometry and moisture detection whiz.
There are several training facilities in North America that
instruct restorers on this technique. I attended a 3-day course where
we flooded a 1500 square foot house with 1,000 gallons of water. The
place was utterly saturated, right through to the crawlspace, which
was swimming.
Using in-place drying techniques, we dried that house to near
completion in 3 days. It was fully dry and ready for habitation in
five days at a total cost of about $5,000-$7,000. There was no loss.
Even the stuffed furniture and stuffed animals came out A-OK.
I'm not criticizing what Alan's insurer and restorer did -
they covered their asses and returned his house to a pre-loss
condition. That's the goal. I'm just saying there are faster, cheaper,
less intrusive ways to dry out water losses.
And thus ends my boring work-related diatribe.
Back to Counter-Strike.
- TR
- The only 38-year-old CS champ on Earth. I think.
Terry Austin
>
>
>Terry Austin wrote:
>> Deirdre Sholto-Douglas wrote:
>
>> > I assure you, I'll be burning for much more interesting reasons
>> > than that.
>> All things considered, I'll conced the point. While you may not succeed
>> in proving it, the mere thought of the attempt is sufficient for me to
>> make a hasty withdrawal.
>
>If you talk to my neighbourhood bible-thumpers, I'm already
>well on the way.
I'm beginning to like you.
>
>> That's the one you want. I'm assuming by "iron" you mean "cast
>> iron" (or something that looks like it, anyway), and not thin, cheesy
>> sheet metal.
>
>I presume it's cast. It's heavy and has a texture that is
>probably what my iron frying pans would look like if someone
>took the time to paint enamel over their surface.
Bingo.
>
>> Count your blessings. Waste leaks are not pleasant. You
>> do not wate a three foot high piles of seweag in the back
>> yard.
>
>Truthfully, I don't want human waste, even in small piles,
>anywhere near my property.
Smart.
>As a microbiologist the oral-
>fecal route of transmission is one of the few things that
>gives me creeping horrors.
As a former (sort of) plumber, I agree.
>
>> > Hell, I plan to pay off the mortgage and be buried in the
>> > back garden.
>> Nothing wrong with that. 'Prolly piss the city off royally,
>> which is a worthy goal in and of itself.
>
>Not to mention that the garden will probably appreciate
>the shot of trace elements.
With your fiery disposition? Hell, you'll probably kill the neighbor's
grass.
>
>> > Maybe so, but proper repair can wait until spring when there's
>> > more time to deal with it.
>> I guess I have a pathological hatred of doing the same job
>> twice.
>
>As do I, but right now I have a worse aversion to finishing the
>last of the outdoor chores in the snow/ice/wind.
Understandable, having lived in Nebraska myself.
>
>> > I've got a lot to accomplish before the weather turns bad and
>> > almost all of it is outdoors.
>> I sometimes forget that other parts of the world have more than
>> one season.
>
>Well, Chicago has two: Hot/humid and cold/wet.
Truthfully, (southern) California has two, as well: summer, and wet summer.
The latter is normally very short, the former is sometimes called "drought".
> I quite like
>the extremes as long as I'm reasonably prepared to endure them.
>Nothing pisses me off worse than having to do a large repair
>because of I missed doing something small. Gutters, ice dams
>and ceiling repairs come to mine fairly readily.
I *really* don't miss the midwest.
>
>> OC does.
>
>OC? Orange County?
Yep. California, that is. Home of Dismaland, the Tragic Condom.
>
>> Oddly enough, that's not the first time I've heard someone
>> pine whistfully for a tornado.
>
>I've been wishing for one ever since the one that took the
>roof left the sliding door with the broken seal (hence moisture)
>between the panes intact. I was hoping when I had the patio
>jack hammered out that a piece of rubble would fly and the
>contractor's insurance would cover it. Hell, the board
>supporting it rotted through, it ended up on a 20 degree cant
>and all the repair guy did was levre it up, replace the board
>and set it back into place...it suspect that blasted door is
>going to outlive me.
Sometimes, even ca strophe won't cooperate with you.
>
>Peeve: Not replacing it because I'm not yet certain if the
> door is going to remain in that spot or, ultimately,
> be moved to where the dining room windows currently
> reside. Whatever happens, the next set of doors are
> *not* going to be on runners.
So you're not actually complaining *too* much.
>
>> > I've never even hit my thumb with a hammer while driving
>> > in a nail.
>> Impressive. Nevertheless, one can never be too careful with
>> a sawzall. Overconfidence is rarely forgiven, and all.
>
>At the rate Santa is listening, the likelihood of getting one
>is slim anyway.
I'd offer you my employee discount - I but at cost - but the markup is so
low on power tools the shipping charge would make it a losing game.
>
>> Heh. I got in to computer work to get away from power tools,
>> and the sort of people who typically like to play with them.
>
>I quite like power tools
Personally, I do, too. It's the sort of people who usually hang out with
them that frighten me. But I live in Yuppie Country, where having to operate
a door knob can be grounds for an ADA claim.
>...particularly of the scientific variety.
Some people have all the fun.
>X-ray diffractometres, inductively coupled plasma atomic
>emission spectra analysers and synchrotrons are some of the
>neatest power tools on earth.
>
>Peeve: Having to update my radiation training cert. Not hard,
> just a nuisance to accomplish during a period at work
> when I'm pressed for time.
>
>Giga!Peeve: Magnetotactic bacteria. These guys are *fun* to
> play with.
>
I'm sure I'd be impressed if I had any clue what you're talking about.
Kevin S. Wilson
Ted) wrote:
> There are several training facilities in North America that
>instruct restorers on this technique. I attended a 3-day course where
>we flooded a 1500 square foot house with 1,000 gallons of water. The
>place was utterly saturated, right through to the crawlspace, which
>was swimming.
>
> Using in-place drying techniques, we dried that house to near
>completion in 3 days. It was fully dry and ready for habitation in
>five days at a total cost of about $5,000-$7,000. There was no loss.
>Even the stuffed furniture and stuffed animals came out A-OK.
>
Did the training outfit own the house? I've heard of movie studios
renting houses short-term for filming, but I might balk if someone
approached me and said, "Here's a few bucks. We want to dump 1,000
gallons of water in your house."
Ad absurdum per aspera
hadn't used a wax ring. Instead he used great heaps of some kind of
putty or mortar instead, conscientiously cramming it into every nook
and cranny. Over the subsequent 40 years, what it gained in stoniness
it lost in its sealing properties. Thus did a very straightforward
15-minute job get sidetracked by the need to remove this stonelike
substance from those little yinyang slots in the waste flange just to
get the T-bolts out and the new ones in.
!Peeve: Having a Dremel tool and a wide assortment of those scary
little bits to go in it. This won't make it exactly *pleasant* to
kneel on the bathroom floor and remove putty that's been hardening
away, despite occasional soakings in toilet effluent, since the
Kennedy Administration, but at least you get done faster...
--Joe
Citizen Ted
wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 03:47:29 GMT, enoi...@dumpthisattbi.com (Citizen
>Ted) wrote:
>> Using in-place drying techniques, we dried that house to near
>>completion in 3 days. It was fully dry and ready for habitation in
>>five days at a total cost of about $5,000-$7,000. There was no loss.
>>Even the stuffed furniture and stuffed animals came out A-OK.
>>
>Did the training outfit own the house? I've heard of movie studios
>renting houses short-term for filming, but I might balk if someone
>approached me and said, "Here's a few bucks. We want to dump 1,000
>gallons of water in your house."
Yeah, the company built the house (inside a warehouse). It was
a typical 1500 sq ft rambler, but atypical in that inside they
installed every type of carpet, pad, flooring, drywall, hardwood and
molding known to man. It was a maze-like hodgepodge of building
material.
They soak the place via sprinklers installed in the ceilings.
The house has been completely flooded over 100 times then dried out.
Most of the interior is original, including the bed and furniture.
- TR
ObPeeve: people who call me up demanding SPECIFIC information
about their device, but waffle when I ask for a model number. Maybe
I'm just "special", but whenever I call for technical assisstance, I
have the model, serial and pertinent history ready to go before I dial
the fucking number.
I guess I'm a freak.
Nosy
In the course of solving problems at Someone Else's House
that involve mysterious leaks of either water line or
sewer line origin (or both...) that will require tunneling
under the house like unto that involved in the Great Escape,
one fact has achieved crystal clarity in what I modestly call
my "mind", to wit:
Slab-on-grade construction is a tool of Satan.
Yes, I know, it is easier for the building contractor,
and yes, I know it's become the de facto standard in
these here United States, but special interests and
argumentum ad populum cut no ice with me anymore.
Embedding plumbing, be it cast iron, copper pipe,
galvanized pipe or any of the modern plastics, into
and under a 4" to 6" (100 mm to 150 mm, more or less)
sheet of cement is making a sizeable deposit of trouble
in the Bank of The Future. Someone gets to withdraw that,
with interest added.
Burying said plumbing, and a gas line or two, on top of a
layer of clay some 3 to 4 feet deep (a meter or more) that is
notorious for heaving up and down like a bath toy in the tub
with a 2-year old, every time a heavy dew is followed by
a moderately sunny day, is simply insane.
ObGeology-Geography-peeve: Guess what kind of soil is underneath
more than one of Austintacious's better neighborhoods?
Yeah, I know, pier-and-beam has its problems, too, but
at least one can get under the structure to see and
fix them, without burrowing in the ground like a demented
mole. And the outside weather is rarely going to be a factor,
but let's face it: no plumber is going to really want to
dig a tunnel under a house when enough rain is pouring
down to fill said tunnel up in short time with muddy water.
But wiat, there's more! Even if the plumbing doesn't go bad
too soon, there is always the joy of pavement adjacent to said slab
heaving up in such a way as to act like a funnel, slucing
water into diverse portions of said house such as the pantry,
the garage, etc. and etc.
It's Satanic! Slab-on-grade is just plain Satanic!
ObPeeve: Now that I've writted this, Mr. Murphy will no doubt
see to it that the next Chateau Nosy is slab-on-grade,
with any number of horrible secrets buried underneath.
Paul Austin
"Nosy" <no...@eskimo.com> wrote in message
news:ywmnbs6n...@eskimo.com...
You're some lucky. Up in Dallas, the dimensionally unstable clay
caused the contractors to put the plumbing up in the ceiling. Now
remember back to the Winter of '84 when Dallas went over 30 days
without getting above freezing. And remember that the Big Freeze
happened over the Christmas holidays where half the city had left to
visit Mom and Them in Port Lavaca. And turned the heat off. Picture
the kitchen when the homeowner walks in the door: Winter wonderland,
complete with sheets of ice down the wall.
--
Eat a live toad in the morning
and nothing worse will happen to you all day.
Paul F Austin
pfau...@bellsouth.net
Ad absurdum per aspera
> heaving up in such a way as to act like a funnel
Of course, you don't need ranch-on-a-slab archicture or particularly
motile soil to achieve that effect. No matter how much engineering
horsepower an organization has, there's usually one guy who thinks
water runs uphill.
*Really* seeing this corrolary of Murphy's law in all its glory takes
a large flat roof, though. Some years ago I used to look down at a
particularly egregious example from my office window -- water would
pond there for *days* after a rainstorm, except where the leaks were.
--Joe
E Varden
>
.
.
.
>
> You're some lucky. Up in Dallas, the dimensionally unstable clay
> caused the contractors to put the plumbing up in the ceiling. Now
> remember back to the Winter of '84 when Dallas went over 30 days
> without getting above freezing. And remember that the Big Freeze
> happened over the Christmas holidays where half the city had left to
> visit Mom and Them in Port Lavaca. And turned the heat off. Picture
> the kitchen when the homeowner walks in the door: Winter wonderland,
> complete with sheets of ice down the wall.
Coulda rented it as a set for Dr Zhivago Redux, hein?
Tim Mefford
> Slab-on-grade construction is a tool of Satan.
I've noticed that this group is frequented by a number of people who
really enjoy working on old cars. People who appreciate and enjoy
the design and workmanship of years past. I'll bet many of these
people would enjoy a chance to examine the workings of more great
WWII vintage workmanship and would love to employ that same craft
themselves in saving that work from the ravages of time. Besides
cars, where else could they do this? Why, a 1940s era house!!
I happen to know of one that needs a little bit of work, and, nosy
would be glad to know, it's not on a grade. What do you say,
everyone, sounds fun, doesn't it? Hey, c'mon, the feel of sledge
and punch in your hands, it would be great. Everybody? It could
be a great couple of weekends. Hello?
OK, fine.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Of such mighty importance every man is to himself, and ready to
think he is so to others; without once making this easy and obvious
reflection, that his affairs can have no more weight with other men
than theirs have with him; and how little that is, he is sensible
enough." -- Jonathan Swift
___Tim_Mefford___________...@aracnet.com________
Dan Evans
"Tim Mefford" <t...@shell1.aracnet.com> wrote in message
news:amsvf...@enews3.newsguy.com...
> In article <ywmnbs6n...@eskimo.com>, Nosy <no...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>
> > Slab-on-grade construction is a tool of Satan.
>
> I've noticed that this group is frequented by a number of people who
> really enjoy working on old cars. People who appreciate and enjoy
> the design and workmanship of years past. I'll bet many of these
> people would enjoy a chance to examine the workings of more great
> WWII vintage workmanship and would love to employ that same craft
> themselves in saving that work from the ravages of time. Besides
> cars, where else could they do this? Why, a 1940s era house!!
> I happen to know of one that needs a little bit of work, and, nosy
> would be glad to know, it's not on a grade. What do you say,
> everyone, sounds fun, doesn't it? Hey, c'mon, the feel of sledge
> and punch in your hands, it would be great. Everybody? It could
> be a great couple of weekends. Hello?
>
I'd love to, where is it? I can be bought if you pay the trip.
Dan
Tim Mefford
Dan Evans <mailer.dae...@danevans.com> wrote:
>I'd love to, where is it? I can be bought if you pay the trip.
Did I mention the septic tank?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Tim Mefford | "vidi, veni"
t...@aracnet.com | -Julius Caesar on Cleopatra
________________________________________________________________
Dan Evans
> In article <3d920950$0$29902$45be...@newscene.com>,
> Dan Evans <mailer.dae...@danevans.com> wrote:
>
> >I'd love to, where is it? I can be bought if you pay the trip.
>
> Did I mention the septic tank?
Just sorted mine out a couple of weeks ago. Sense of smell still hasn't
returned, so not a problem.
Dan
Peter Stickney
Nosy <no...@eskimo.com> writes:
>
> In the course of solving problems at Someone Else's House
> that involve mysterious leaks of either water line or
> sewer line origin (or both...) that will require tunneling
> under the house like unto that involved in the Great Escape,
> one fact has achieved crystal clarity in what I modestly call
> my "mind", to wit:
>
> Slab-on-grade construction is a tool of Satan.
Slab-on-Grade for residences is an Abomination, of those who tout it,
let their name be Anathema.
>
> Yes, I know, it is easier for the building contractor,
> and yes, I know it's become the de facto standard in
> these here United States, but special interests and
> argumentum ad populum cut no ice with me anymore.
Well, maybe so down in your part, but up hyar where the Very Ground
Itself Freezes, we don't do that.
Although I did do a Slab for the Wife's Shep/Studio. But I done did
it right. The soil morphology required that, for the thing to survive
the freeze-thaw cycles, part of teh footings ended up with a depth of
4 ft. (1.33 M) Oh, and that's 4 ft through a shallow skim of loam,
than a lot of clay, liberally seasoned with bits of Granite ranging
from pea-sized to about half a cow. They don't call it the Granite
State for nawthin'. After the crushed stone & gravel, it took 7 1/2
yards of concrete, and 150' of rebar to finish off. (What can I say,
when all you know how to build are Bridge Abutments and Bomb Shelters,
everything you build will be a Bridge Abutment or Bomb Shelter.) It's
stood up well, though, with only one small surface crack. (But by
that point, it would have been easier to just dig a celler for the
Godfrey-Danieled thing.)
> Embedding plumbing, be it cast iron, copper pipe,
> galvanized pipe or any of the modern plastics, into
> and under a 4" to 6" (100 mm to 150 mm, more or less)
> sheet of cement is making a sizeable deposit of trouble
> in the Bank of The Future. Someone gets to withdraw that,
> with interest added.
I've been eyeing a solenoid-driven Electrical Jack Hammer for some
time. Sounds like just the thing for the Southern Handyman's tool
kit.
> Yeah, I know, pier-and-beam has its problems, too, but
> at least one can get under the structure to see and
> fix them, without burrowing in the ground like a demented
> mole. And the outside weather is rarely going to be a factor,
> but let's face it: no plumber is going to really want to
> dig a tunnel under a house when enough rain is pouring
> down to fill said tunnel up in short time with muddy water.
>
> But wiat, there's more! Even if the plumbing doesn't go bad
> too soon, there is always the joy of pavement adjacent to said slab
> heaving up in such a way as to act like a funnel, slucing
> water into diverse portions of said house such as the pantry,
> the garage, etc. and etc.
>
> It's Satanic! Slab-on-grade is just plain Satanic!
> ObPeeve: Now that I've writted this, Mr. Murphy will no doubt
> see to it that the next Chateau Nosy is slab-on-grade,
> with any number of horrible secrets buried underneath.
Well, since, after all, this is the Granite State, and we've been
living here a while, it's not at all uncommon to encounter cellars
built with dry-fitted fieldstone. If you don't fuck with it, it's
strong enough, but it does have the disadvantage of having the same
qualities of holding back water as your average window screen. As many
of the people who upfitted their Colonial-type cellars with zippy
modrun Concrete Floors have discovered.
Ma? Do furnaces float?
--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
Ad absurdum per aspera
> at least one can get under the structure to see and fix them
A place where I used to live had pier-and-beam with a lateral
reinforcement that ran the entire length of the crawlspace and most of
the way up to the floor joists... between the only access hatch and
the floor furnace. I'm not sure whether it was original or
retrofitted. At some point, somebody had noticed the wee oversight
and sent in an equally wee worker to sledgehammer away several inches
off the top in a certain place.
This was no skin off my back, figuratively or literally, until the day
the thermostat for the floor furnace packed it in. I put on
coveralls and gloves and verified my hunch that there was no way I
could get my shoulders through said "opening," at least not without
crossing even my unusually high Let The Landlord Deal With This One
threshold. A few phone calls elicited an appropriately skinny
heating repairman, who spent the next two hours doing half an hour's
work in an hour and a half's worth of godawful location.
--Joe
Ayse Sercan
>Of course, you don't need ranch-on-a-slab archicture or particularly
>motile soil to achieve that effect. No matter how much engineering
>horsepower an organization has, there's usually one guy who thinks
>water runs uphill.
Or, in the case of my house, smoke falls. Who on earth would pitch a
chimney run *downward*, anyway?
(Probably the same genius who repaired a gas leak by tying plastic bags
around the pipes with twine.)
--
ay...@idiom.com
"Give me a sledgehammer and I can uninstall *anything*."
--Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
Ayse Sercan wrote:
>
> jtc...@california.com (Ad absurdum per aspera) wrote:
> >Of course, you don't need ranch-on-a-slab archicture or particularly
> >motile soil to achieve that effect. No matter how much engineering
> >horsepower an organization has, there's usually one guy who thinks
> >water runs uphill.
>
> Or, in the case of my house, smoke falls. Who on earth would pitch a
> chimney run *downward*, anyway?
I guess it depends on one's perspective...a chimney that goes up from
a room, by default, has to go down from somewhere else, generally
the roof.
Are you sure you haven't just got a lazy flue? Sometimes the
downward plume of smoke can be warded off by heating the
chimney with a newspaper "tree" while the fire is still in the
relatively smokeless kindling phase. It heats the air inside
the masonry and gets it moving upward at a time when the fire
itself isn't really hot enough to do so.
GigaPeeve: Chimney fires. Once was enough. I've never had
one here and, hopefully, by dint of yearly cleaning and
inspection, I never will.
Peeve: Chimney pots or the lack thereof. There aren't that many
old houses around here and the few that are tend to be in fairly
good, recently refurbished, shape, but no one ever seems to
finish the job by installing chimney pots up top.
?Peeve: I should install one on my ranch house simply to annoy
the neighbours.
> (Probably the same genius who repaired a gas leak by tying plastic bags
> around the pipes with twine.)
Cripes, don't let my gas company on to that little trick, they'd
probably start employing it on behalf of the stockholders' dividend
cheques.
Deirdre
LeGrandeRaoul
> GigaPeeve: Chimney fires. Once was enough. I've never had
> one here and, hopefully, by dint of yearly cleaning and
> inspection, I never will.
Interesting. My Mother tells me that, when she was a kid in victoria,
BC in the 1920's, they both heated and cooked with wood. (In a sawmill
city, it was cheap.) every six months or so, my grandfather would light
the chimney on fire to clean it out. Made a horrible noise for awhile
but soon went out. House never burned down- was finally pushed down
for a lumberyard in the 60's.
Jeff
JimG
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas <fi...@enteract.com> wrote:
Sometimes the
> downward plume of smoke can be warded off by heating the
> chimney with a newspaper "tree" while the fire is still in the
> relatively smokeless kindling phase. It heats the air inside
> the masonry and gets it moving upward at a time when the fire
> itself isn't really hot enough to do so.
Log lighters are quite the nifty appliance for this exact purpose.
>
> Peeve: Chimney pots or the lack thereof. There aren't that many
> old houses around here and the few that are tend to be in fairly
> good, recently refurbished, shape, but no one ever seems to
> finish the job by installing chimney pots up top.
We did that during the ObRenovation being the First! On! Our!
Block! to do so. Of course then everyone *had* to have them.
Peeve: Seeing really nice chimney pots used as plant holders
or garden table tops.
GigaPeeve: Finding that the ObSqueddels have moved into the
one inoperable pot on the chimney.
JimG
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
I imagine there are a number of variables here, not the least of
which would be roof composition. The one chimney fire I
experienced was in a house with a wooden (cedar, perhaps?)
roof. Seeing flames shoot out of a chimney and watching
embers landing on all that wood (which may have been fire
retardant treated, I don't know) was enough to decide me
that once was Quite Enough. I might have felt differently
if the roof had been slate.
Additionally, you have the By Intent vs. By Surprise aspect
of it. Lighting something intentionally means (hopefully)
that you've removed all potential hazards, waited for a
non-windy day, know that the masonry is intact as it runs
through the house and have some means of containing things
should they get out of hand...you'd also be prepared for the
noise which, I must admit, is one of the more frightening
aspects of it. Chimneys are *not* supposed to sound like
that.
I'm currently in a frame house with an asphalt shingle
roof. I know the masonry and lining of the chimney itself
are in good shape, but I don't want to contend with burning
embers drifting onto fuel sources. <shrug> Maybe it's
just me, but I'd rather prevent a fire than put one out.
Deirdre
John Kimball
not a good idea; on Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:26:37 -0500 Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
<fi...@enteract.com> blew their wad in Message id:
<3D9B486C...@enteract.com>:
>I know the masonry and lining of the chimney itself
>are in good shape,
It doesn't matter whether it's in good shape, a chimney fire will likely
crack a ceramic liner. Especially likely if the fire has just been
started, and the liner is still relatively cool.
--
begin trash harddisk.vbs
I'm a signature virus. Copy me! Look here why:
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q265/2/30.ASP
end
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
John Kimball wrote:
>
> Proof that mixing large quantities of alcohol and Thorazine together is
> not a good idea; on Wed, 02 Oct 2002 14:26:37 -0500 Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
> <fi...@enteract.com> blew their wad in Message id:
> <3D9B486C...@enteract.com>:
>
> >I know the masonry and lining of the chimney itself
> >are in good shape,
>
> It doesn't matter whether it's in good shape, a chimney fire will likely
> crack a ceramic liner. Especially likely if the fire has just been
> started, and the liner is still relatively cool.
Are you also suggesting it's going to crack the brick and
mortar surrounding the liner? Seems to me, the state
of the chimney matters...particularly if it's on fire and
there's a potential for flames gouting through cracks in
the mortar into the attic.
Deirdre
Dan Drake
<fi...@enteract.com> wrote:
<chimney fire>
>Are you also suggesting it's going to crack the brick and
>mortar surrounding the liner? Seems to me, the state
>of the chimney matters...particularly if it's on fire and
>there's a potential for flames gouting through cracks in
>the mortar into the attic.
I've seen a few chimney fires. Once they get going, they are like jet
engines, with a howling blue conical exhaust flame (*just* like a jet
engine exhaust) exiting the chimney. The thermodynamics of a chimney
fire are not like must people imagine them to be - maybe a few lazy,
smoky flames licking out of the chimney pot. You are dealing with a
very fierce chemical reaction that will sustain high temperatures for
long enough to do more damage, and spread further than your intuition
might tell you.
Have the fucking chimney swept at least once a year, especially if you
burn wood. I do.
--
Dan Drake
Alan Gore
>I've seen a few chimney fires. Once they get going, they are like jet
>engines, with a howling blue conical exhaust flame (*just* like a jet
>engine exhaust) exiting the chimney.
Years ago in Canada, we had a chimney fire from the coal stove of the
old Victorian house. From the stove, a great length of stovepipe
(heavy sheet iron - ask Grandpa) ran laterally just under the high
ceilings from the kitchen to the chimney. I remember helping move
furniture out from under the stovepipe as it glowed red along its
entire length.
Fortunately, in those days the gaskets that supported the pipe as it
passed through each wall were pure asbestos.
ag...@qwest.net | "Giving money and power to the government
Alan Gore | is like giving whiskey and car keys
Software For PC's, Inc. | to teenaged boys" - P. J. O'Rourke
http://www.alangore.com
Paul Austin
"Alan Gore" wrote
> Dan Drake wrote:
>
> >I've seen a few chimney fires. Once they get going, they are like
jet
> >engines, with a howling blue conical exhaust flame (*just* like a
jet
> >engine exhaust) exiting the chimney.
>
> Years ago in Canada, we had a chimney fire from the coal stove of
the
> old Victorian house. From the stove, a great length of stovepipe
> (heavy sheet iron - ask Grandpa) ran laterally just under the high
> ceilings from the kitchen to the chimney. I remember helping move
> furniture out from under the stovepipe as it glowed red along its
> entire length.
>
> Fortunately, in those days the gaskets that supported the pipe as it
> passed through each wall were pure asbestos.
Al, you need to find an alligator ^H litigator to represent you in the
Great Asbestos Lottery and Shakedown. I'm waiting for the Three
Thousand Dead from the WTC to file (posthumous) claims for asbestos
exposure from the collapsing building.
--
"I don't wonder that so many men are wicked.
I do wonder that so many are unashamed"
Paul F Austin
pfau...@bellsouth.net
Ayse Sercan
>
>Ayse Sercan wrote:
>>
>> Or, in the case of my house, smoke falls. Who on earth would pitch a
>> chimney run *downward*, anyway?
>
>I guess it depends on one's perspective...a chimney that goes up from
>a room, by default, has to go down from somewhere else, generally
>the roof.
One would think. But apparently the home improvement genius who owned the
house before us felt otherwise. At any rate, there's a chimney at the
back of the house which goes up from the source, makes a 100 degree turn
and heads downward and out the wall for three feet, then turns upward
again and ends just below the fascia.
Our plumber calls it a fire-starter.
>Are you sure you haven't just got a lazy flue?
Well, it's not a wood fireplace that's attached to the chimney, but a gas
water heater. I suspect the thing draws just fine, but it seems to me
that having a serious downward cant to the chimney is likely to do bad
things to the quality of the combustion.
Apropos of fireplaces, it's always funny to watch somebody light a wood
fire in a coal fireplace. This house was built in the Golden Age of Coal,
so the original fireplaces were all those tiny coal-burning ones.
Apparently, the previous owners were miffed at how badly they drew when
wood fires were lit (which is: not at all), so they walled them over and
replaced them with a big square gas furnace in the middle of the living
room. One of my tasks for this fall is figuring out how to remove that
monstrocity and still heat the house all winter.
--
ay...@idiom.com
"Anyone who willingly engages in a battle of wits
with a fish is at best evenly matched." -- Pete Young
E Varden
>
> John Kimball wrote:
> >
> > >I know the masonry and lining of the chimney itself
> > >are in good shape,
> >
> > It doesn't matter whether it's in good shape, a chimney fire will likely
> > crack a ceramic liner. Especially likely if the fire has just been
> > started, and the liner is still relatively cool.
>
> Are you also suggesting it's going to crack the brick and
> mortar surrounding the liner? Seems to me, the state
> of the chimney matters...particularly if it's on fire and
> there's a potential for flames gouting through cracks in
> the mortar into the attic.
Check this out:
http://www.csia.org/home/chimfire.html
Seems the Greens and their hearth-heater glass-doored prissies are the
most likely to burn down the house.
(At least the eucalyptus smelled good at the time).
John Kimball
>John Kimball wrote:
[...]
>>
>> It doesn't matter whether it's in good shape, a chimney fire will likely
>> crack a ceramic liner. Especially likely if the fire has just been
>> started, and the liner is still relatively cool.
>
>Are you also suggesting it's going to crack the brick and
>mortar surrounding the liner?
Quite possible, yes. The liner breaks down, and then the mortar holding
the bricks together is next. It all depends on how much creosote build up
there is for the fire to feed on. http://www.csia.org/home/chimfire.html
>Seems to me, the state
>of the chimney matters...particularly if it's on fire and
>there's a potential for flames gouting through cracks in
>the mortar into the attic.
Well, sure. You'll have that much more time to call 911 and evacuate the
house before it catches on fire. From what you originally wrote, it seemed
as though you were saying you had nothing to worry about.
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
John Kimball wrote:
>> It doesn't matter whether it's in good shape, a chimney fire will likely
> >> crack a ceramic liner. Especially likely if the fire has just been
> >> started, and the liner is still relatively cool.
> >Are you also suggesting it's going to crack the brick and
> >mortar surrounding the liner?
> Quite possible, yes. The liner breaks down, and then the mortar holding
> the bricks together is next. It all depends on how much creosote build up
> there is for the fire to feed on. http://www.csia.org/home/chimfire.html
In my case, there is *no* creosote. The chimney is cleaned and
inspected each and every year without fail. The former task
is done by a licensed sweep and the latter is a service which is
provided by my village fire brigade (ObUS: department).
> >Seems to me, the state
> >of the chimney matters...particularly if it's on fire and
> >there's a potential for flames gouting through cracks in
> >the mortar into the attic.
> Well, sure. You'll have that much more time to call 911 and evacuate the
> house before it catches on fire. From what you originally wrote, it seemed
> as though you were saying you had nothing to worry about.
I don't have anything to worry about because The State Of The
Chimney Matters and it is maintained. If a fire *does* start for
reasons unpredicted, the liner and the masonry are in good
enough shape that it will not spread through the walls or attic,
it will have to spread by sending lit embers down onto the roof
shingles...which will probably not ignite because the minute I
hear that roar which says "chimney fire" I'm going to be outside
soaking down the roof with a hose.
ObNote: Whenever there's no snow on the roof there is always
a hose connected to a spigot so that the roof can be wet down
quickly...mind you, the reason for that is owing to the proximity of
my neighbour's house, not because I have a chimney. Their roof sits
higher than mine and should their house ignite, a wind in the right
direction could easily blow sparks or embers on to my roof.
Deirdre
Peter Stickney
ag...@qwest.net (Alan Gore) writes:
> Dan Drake <ddr...@NOTTHIS.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>I've seen a few chimney fires. Once they get going, they are like jet
>>engines, with a howling blue conical exhaust flame (*just* like a jet
>>engine exhaust) exiting the chimney.
>
> Years ago in Canada, we had a chimney fire from the coal stove of the
> old Victorian house. From the stove, a great length of stovepipe
> (heavy sheet iron - ask Grandpa) ran laterally just under the high
> ceilings from the kitchen to the chimney. I remember helping move
> furniture out from under the stovepipe as it glowed red along its
> entire length.
>
> Fortunately, in those days the gaskets that supported the pipe as it
> passed through each wall were pure asbestos.
Don't necessarily need a chimney fire for that. Back during the Early
1970's Energy Crisis (As opposed to the 1913 Energy Crisis, or the
upcoming 1930's Energy Crisis, or the Late '70s Energy Crisis, or the
Upsoming Heat Death of the Universe (or even the soon-to-arrive
civilizatio-killing Giant Meteor that turned out to be Apollo 12's
spent Saturn V Third Stage)) The family decided to heat with wood,
since wood we got. We obtained a rather zippy airtight wood furnace,
all thermostatic dampers and proper grates, which we plumbed into the
forced hot air ducting of the existing Dinosaur Consuming system, all,
of course, engineered to the optimum in terms of placement, bedding,
ductwork, and draght. Worked pretty danged well, too. Except that
one day, I noticed a slight glow in the flue pipe running to the uptake
chimney. In and of itself that's not too unusual, but I had about 10
100 Watt lights on at the time. Lights off, the uptake was Yellow
Hot. Opening the door to the firebox was something like the scene in
"Forbidden Planet" when Morbius showd Cdr. Adams the innards of one of
the Krell Core Taps. ("Man may not look upon th eface of the Gorgon
and live", and all that) By using good hardwood (Ash, in this case),
and by setting up the proper arrangement of aerodynamic slots among
the logs in the firebox, we'd managed to get a good-old Hamburg type
Firestorm going. We scrammed the furnace of course, & pulled a full
inspection. The furnace was O.K., but the uptake pipe was now of a
teardrop cross-section. We ended up rewriting the limitations in the
Operator's Handbook, and finding Stainless Steel uptake pipe. (Sinve
you can't get Iconel in the scrapyard.
Creosote fires can be a lot nastier than you think, especially in a
chimney. Once it starts generating its own airflow, you've got a
pretty serious blowtorch going on. We end up with a rash of 'em every
year, mostly City-folk who don't understand that burning Pine is a Bad
Thing.
Julian Macassey
<p-sti...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Creosote fires can be a lot nastier than you think, especially in a
> chimney. Once it starts generating its own airflow, you've got a
> pretty serious blowtorch going on.
> We end up with a rash of 'em every
> year, mostly City-folk who don't understand that burning Pine is a Bad
> Thing.
ObScaniwegia: What do you burn in Norway?
I keep hearing that hardwood is the thing to burn and I
concur. It burns longer, gives good heat and produces less smoke.
But, you can't find it everywhere.
I once spent time in the mountains of Norway with a
norwegian that preferred to burn green pine as it burnt longer.
He wasn't impressed when I pointed out that it produced more
smoke, more soot and less heat.
--
Get over my being a witch. I have much more important things to
do. - momm...@mail.baymoon.com
Peter Stickney
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas <fi...@enteract.com> writes:
> I don't have anything to worry about because The State Of The
> Chimney Matters and it is maintained. If a fire *does* start for
> reasons unpredicted, the liner and the masonry are in good
> enough shape that it will not spread through the walls or attic,
> it will have to spread by sending lit embers down onto the roof
> shingles...which will probably not ignite because the minute I
> hear that roar which says "chimney fire" I'm going to be outside
> soaking down the roof with a hose.
Hopefully having closed the damper on the flue before exiting the
house. Yeah, it makes it smoky inside, but starving teh
self-sustaining fire in the chimney is a Good Thing.
Alan Gore
>Hopefully having closed the damper on the flue before exiting the
>house.
I was wondering how long it was going to be before someone mentioned
this obvious step.
Deirdre Sholto-Douglas
Peter Stickney wrote:
>
> In article <3D9E067E...@enteract.com>,
> Deirdre Sholto-Douglas <fi...@enteract.com> writes:
>
> > I don't have anything to worry about because The State Of The
> > Chimney Matters and it is maintained. If a fire *does* start for
> > reasons unpredicted, the liner and the masonry are in good
> > enough shape that it will not spread through the walls or attic,
> > it will have to spread by sending lit embers down onto the roof
> > shingles...which will probably not ignite because the minute I
> > hear that roar which says "chimney fire" I'm going to be outside
> > soaking down the roof with a hose.
>
> Hopefully having closed the damper on the flue before exiting the
> house. Yeah, it makes it smoky inside, but starving teh
> self-sustaining fire in the chimney is a Good Thing.
*That* goes without saying...I just wish there were a way to
construct a chimney cap which, at a certain temperature,
collapsed on its supports and closed it off at the top. During
the one chimney fire I experienced, I remember looking up at
it (whilst awaiting people with Big Hoses and Yellow Trucks)
and thinking "If it could be capped like a burning oil well, it
could be starved before it does too much damage." A search
undertaken after the fact netted me the knowledge that no
such thing exists...admittedly, I've not looked recently since
my current MO is to prevent the fire from even starting.
Peeve: Birds which (somehow) get past the mesh and into the
chimney. The last one managed to get into the house
owing to the fact that it fell all the way through and
was banging around on the topside of the damper. And,
of course, it *would* be a starling that had gorged itself
on mulberries prior to its descent.
PeeveII: Six cats and the only one with sense enough to go
after said bird was 24 years old at the time and he
thought he was in trouble for catching it because he'd
been told for two decades "Mice good, birds bad." and
had (pretty much) abided by the rules.
?Peeve: The look of utter bewilderment on his face when
he caught a bat. Is it a bird with fur or a mouse that
flies? Since bats can be useful to have around, I didn't
know what to tell him either, fortunately he never
managed to catch a second one.
Deirdre
Peter Stickney
jul...@tele.com (Julian Macassey) writes:
> On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:03:53 GMT, Peter Stickney
> <p-sti...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>> Creosote fires can be a lot nastier than you think, especially in a
>> chimney. Once it starts generating its own airflow, you've got a
>> pretty serious blowtorch going on.
>
>> We end up with a rash of 'em every
>> year, mostly City-folk who don't understand that burning Pine is a Bad
>> Thing.
>
> ObScaniwegia: What do you burn in Norway?
ObMaineiac: Birch, Poplar, Maple, sometimes a bit of Apple, when it's
pruning time at th' Orchahds. Pine's kinda useful for kindling,
though.
If you open your Road Atlas, you'll find that Norway, ME is on Rt 26,
between Gray (Exit 11 on the Maine Turnpike) and Paris, whilst on the
way to Bethel) Oddly enough, there are a lot of Scandihoovian types up
there, ;casue they were participants in the early days of eth skiing
industry. Also a lot of Bavarians, too. (Seems that there was a POW
Camp outside of Berlin, NH, where a lot of the Afrika Korps types,
meny of whom were from Bavaria and Schwabia were interned. Finding
that the countryside was a lot like the old country, but not quite so
high, and it just plain being a friendlier place, many came back after
reptriation.
>
> I keep hearing that hardwood is the thing to burn and I
> concur. It burns longer, gives good heat and produces less smoke.
> But, you can't find it everywhere.
Ask the Irish. One definition of an Irishman is that he's a Briton
who's morally convinced that that can burn dirt. And procedds to do
so. (For those who think I'm slighting the Irish, might I point out
that one of their growing Craft Industries is exporting Peat to teh
U.S. for people who've never been cloder to Ireland that A Street in
S. Boston to burn all on their very own. So not only will they burn
dirt, but they can find willing customeers who'll pay to have them
ship it to them.)
> I once spent time in the mountains of Norway with a
> norwegian that preferred to burn green pine as it burnt longer.
> He wasn't impressed when I pointed out that it produced more
> smoke, more soot and less heat.
But less trips to the woodpile. It's all a question of priorities.
Roy G. Ovrebo
> On Sat, 05 Oct 2002 00:03:53 GMT, Peter Stickney
><p-sti...@adelphia.net> wrote:
>> Creosote fires can be a lot nastier than you think, especially in a
>> chimney. Once it starts generating its own airflow, you've got a
>> pretty serious blowtorch going on.
>
>> We end up with a rash of 'em every
>> year, mostly City-folk who don't understand that burning Pine is a Bad
>> Thing.
>
> ObScaniwegia: What do you burn in Norway?
Fir, pine, junkmail.
But then again, chimney sweeping and inspection is a biannual affair,
care of the local council.
> I keep hearing that hardwood is the thing to burn and I
> concur. It burns longer, gives good heat and produces less smoke.
> But, you can't find it everywhere.
>
> I once spent time in the mountains of Norway with a
> norwegian that preferred to burn green pine as it burnt longer.
> He wasn't impressed when I pointed out that it produced more
> smoke, more soot and less heat.
Yeah, the wood should lie in storage to dry out.
--
Roy G. Ovrebo
Brian Pickrell
> p-sti...@adelphia.net (Peter Stickney) wrote:
>
> >Hopefully having closed the damper on the flue before exiting the
> >house.
>
> I was wondering how long it was going to be before someone mentioned
> this obvious step.
>
Reaching in there and closing it may be easier said than done when the
chimney's on fire.
Alan Gore
>Reaching in there and closing it may be easier said than done when the
>chimney's on fire.
Not if you have the new type that operates from the outside of the
fireplace, or the old type with a hole in the damper lever, allowing
it to be operated with the poker.
Peter Stickney
Uhm, I don;t know what things are like in your cave, but around here,
the dampers are controlled by cranks on the outside of the fireplace.
The same goes, of course, for the dampers in stove flues. The one
exception I can think of, the converrted early 19th Century forge in
my folks house, has a handy lever with a loophole at teh end to stick
the poker into to manipulate it. Having a damper control that
requires you to reach in past the fire is, at best, foolish.
Peter Stickney
A good idea, although I see problems wrt weather actig on anything at
the top end. A burn-though link down the chimney that holds up a
normally closed flap at the bottom, though...
> Peeve: Birds which (somehow) get past the mesh and into the
> chimney. The last one managed to get into the house
> owing to the fact that it fell all the way through and
> was banging around on the topside of the damper. And,
> of course, it *would* be a starling that had gorged itself
> on mulberries prior to its descent.
That's been a problem since Og the Firemaker came up with a hole n the
cave roof. What's been more pussling to us have been the occasional
birds that have gotten inside the folk's house with no apparent route.
I suspect that the cats are inviting them in, but I've no proof.
> PeeveII: Six cats and the only one with sense enough to go
> after said bird was 24 years old at the time and he
> thought he was in trouble for catching it because he'd
> been told for two decades "Mice good, birds bad." and
> had (pretty much) abided by the rules.
It's hard to double-clutch a paradigm shift.
> ?Peeve: The look of utter bewilderment on his face when
> he caught a bat. Is it a bird with fur or a mouse that
> flies? Since bats can be useful to have around, I didn't
> know what to tell him either, fortunately he never
> managed to catch a second one.
The problem is finding half a bat. Tank Boy managed to do this, and,
since Bats do not generally receive Rabies shots, both he and the cats
ended up on the quarantine list for 3 months.
(Turned out to be a great pick-up line. "Hi. Don't let me bite you.")
Robert Sneddon
Pickrell <bobth...@brandx.net> writes
Another of these Left-Pondian vs. Right-Pondian dichotomies here...
I was brought up in a house heated exclusively by coal fires (my father
was a miner and got seven tons of coal a year free as a concesssion). We
had chimney fires occasionally (maybe three times as I recall). All we
did was pour water on the coals to put out the grate fire and wait a
couple of minutes. Without the support of the fire at the bottom the
soot fire in the chimney soon goes out. Another trick was to close all
the windows and doors to the room, choking the fire somewhat as well.
Of course we were living in a brick house with fireclay-lined chimneys
and tile rooves so the chance of sparks etc. setting fire to the house
was minimal. Chip-fat fires and smoking in bed were the usual sources of
house fire in the UK.
--
Robert Sneddon nojay (at) nojay (dot) fsnet (dot) co (dot) uk
Steve Daniels
say:
> I was brought up in a house heated exclusively by coal fires (my father
>was a miner and got seven tons of coal a year free as a concesssion).
Was that enough? It sounds like a lot of coal to me, but I've
only dealt with it a few pounds at a time, and then only once.
Robert Sneddon
<sdan...@gorge.net> writes
For a Scottish climate, it was about right (fires lit about eight or
nine months a year). The allowance dropped to five tons when my father
retired and we burned some wood then to supplement the heating (old
pallets and an occasional van-load of pine felled in the farm wood).
There was a canopy boiler in the back of the main living-room fireplace
that supplied hot water to radiators through the rest of the house, plus
a coil in a water tank to provide hot tap water. Before this was put in
(mid-70s) both bedrooms had their own small fireplace -- in late evening
we'd take a shovel full of hot ashes from the living-room fire and start
a fire in the bedroom grates that way.
We got the chimney swept about once every two years. There were
chemical briquettes you could buy to burn in the grate which promised to
remove soot without sweeping, but they were of dubious efficacy.
A mate who lives a couple of miles away has a small pot stove in his
living room in which he burns wood, but that is mainly for religious
reasons. Other friends live on a boat in West London and the primary
source of heating for that is an anthracite stove in the main cabin.
Peter Stickney
Robert Sneddon <no...@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes:
> In article <eed75299.02100...@posting.google.com>, Brian
> Pickrell <bobth...@brandx.net> writes
>>ag...@qwest.net (Alan Gore) wrote in message news:<3d9e721f....@news.qwest
>>.net>...
>>> p-sti...@adelphia.net (Peter Stickney) wrote:
>>>
>>> >Hopefully having closed the damper on the flue before exiting the
>>> >house.
>>>
>>> I was wondering how long it was going to be before someone mentioned
>>> this obvious step.
>>>
>>
>>Reaching in there and closing it may be easier said than done when the
>>chimney's on fire.
>
> Another of these Left-Pondian vs. Right-Pondian dichotomies here...
It's as much as anything else, a measure ot what we're combusting.
Since trees haven;t been avaialbel as firewood in Olde Blighty
for a handful of centruies or so, that's understandable.
> I was brought up in a house heated exclusively by coal fires (my father
> was a miner and got seven tons of coal a year free as a concesssion). We
> had chimney fires occasionally (maybe three times as I recall). All we
> did was pour water on the coals to put out the grate fire and wait a
> couple of minutes. Without the support of the fire at the bottom the
> soot fire in the chimney soon goes out. Another trick was to close all
> the windows and doors to the room, choking the fire somewhat as well.
Coal, of course, unless you're talking about that Russian
Self-Igniting Brown Lignite, in genreal burns cleaner than most
softwoods. Pitchy stuff, like Pine, Spruce, Cedar and the like, tend
to have lots & lots of volatile hydrocarbons contained within, which
don;t all burn off, and can accrete on the innards of the flue. At
some point, when the stack gas temperature gets high enough, it will
ignite, and, with a normal chimney, start sucking in air at a
prodigious rate, making for a pretty serious blowtorch. This is quite
self-sustaining, if teh chimney linings have acquired a Critical Mess
of creosote.
> Of course we were living in a brick house with fireclay-lined chimneys
> and tile rooves so the chance of sparks etc. setting fire to the house
> was minimal. Chip-fat fires and smoking in bed were the usual sources of
> house fire in the UK.
The biggest fear with chimney fires isn't so much sparks emanated, as
it is damage or ignition of the internal structure of the house by
either the potentially red hot chimney, or the escape of hot gas
through a flaw in the flue.
E Varden
>
>
>
> > I once spent time in the mountains of Norway with a
> > norwegian that preferred to burn green pine as it burnt longer.
> > He wasn't impressed when I pointed out that it produced more
> > smoke, more soot and less heat.
>
> But less trips to the woodpile. It's all a question of priorities.
>
Or uUntil his fucking chimbly burns the hogan down.
(Or have I been misreading this thread?)
E Varden
>
>
>
> > I once spent time in the mountains of Norway with a
> > norwegian that preferred to burn green pine as it burnt longer.
> > He wasn't impressed when I pointed out that it produced more
> > smoke, more soot and less heat.
>
> But less trips to the woodpile. It's all a question of priorities.
>