This whole breastfeeding issue
D.Chenier
comments, the majority of which from the bottle-feeders and the majority of
which taken slightly out of context.
The thing is that while those who posted in reply to mine took the point of
view that BF'ers are against bottle-feeders, almost no one, except for
Josie and Sue, responded to the main point of my post, which was whether or
not doctors should be more pro-active in encouraging BF'ing. And even when
they did respond to that point, they did it from the point of view that
they have the right to bottle-feed, not from the point of view of what was
right for the baby.
I'm still amazed at how much bottle-feeding is the norm, even when faced
with the benefits of breastfeeding.
I guess we are still far away from a world where breastfeeding will be the
norm and bottle-feeding will be for those who truly can't breastfeed,
whether it be because of a low supply, the baby's inability to get to the
milk or the logistic of work and breastfeeding (ye, that is, unfortunately,
a point to consider, especially in those areas where there is, per se, no
maternity leave).
Furthermore, I would like to re-iterate that I DON'T judge those who opt to
bottle-feed, even though I don't understand it.
--
Danielle,
Maman to Marc-Andre - May 22, 1991 and Genevieve - Dec. 18, 1995 and
recently weaned
Writing from Canada
Visit my new web-page, view new pics of the kids, and, please, sign my
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wyn
I give up - you really don't get it, do you???
This is *not* a health issue. It never has been. I'm not even sure it's
really a cultural issue.
Pure and simple, it's an ****ECONOMIC**** issue.
We live in a two-income society. Women work. This is not the 1950s
anymore.
The MAJORITY of women do not work for progressive companies. 80% of the
businesses today are SMALL businesses, with no means for onsite day
care, or flexible work schedules.
Breastfeeding is inconvenient and unrealistic for today's working mom.
I believe it comes down to weighing the advantages/disadvantages, and
when you have to go back to work after 6 weeks or so, breastfeeding's
disadvantages really do tip the scale in favor of bottle feeding.
Who in their right mind would put up with the pain and stress of trying
to breastfeed for even one week, if they knew they were going to
transition over to a bottle anyway?
jen
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D.Chenier
<08335b66...@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com>...
> Danielle,
>
> I give up - you really don't get it, do you???
>
> This is *not* a health issue. It never has been. I'm not even sure it's
> really a cultural issue.
>
Jen, it IS an health issue: breastmilk is healthier than formula. Formula
was engineered as a breastmilk replacement. Formula companies are forever
trying to mimick breastmilk in their product, but they haven't succeeded.
For one thing, the components of breastmilk constantly change, in response
to baby's needs, even DURING a feeding. In the winter, when it's cold, it
contains more fat, in the Summer, when it's hot, it contains more water,
the hind milk is different from the fore milk, the milk produced in the
early days, colostrum, is then replaced by a milk containing nutrients for
an older baby and the milk produced for a toddler is in no way comparable
to the milk produced for an infant!!! There is NO WAY that formula could
adapt in this matter!!!
> Pure and simple, it's an ****ECONOMIC**** issue.
>
Breast milk is free. Formula is so expensive that, around here, bottle
feeding mothers are putting 3 months old on cow's milk!!! How's THAT for
economics?
> We live in a two-income society. Women work. This is not the 1950s
> anymore.
>
It's been demonstrated that it is possible to work AND nurse. Even if you
don't, nursing for the first few weeks would still be a possibility!!!
>
> Breastfeeding is inconvenient and unrealistic for today's working mom.
> I believe it comes down to weighing the advantages/disadvantages, and
> when you have to go back to work after 6 weeks or so, breastfeeding's
> disadvantages really do tip the scale in favor of bottle feeding.
>
Even when you have to back to work after 6 weeks, you can still breastfeed
for a month or so!!
> Who in their right mind would put up with the pain and stress of trying
> to breastfeed for even one week, if they knew they were going to
> transition over to a bottle anyway?
I know many women who give up breastfeeding after 2 weeks!!!
Josephea L. Payne
<danielle...@pwgsc.gc.ca> writes:
>
>The thing is that while those who posted in reply to mine took the point of
>view that BF'ers are against bottle-feeders, almost no one, except for
>Josie and Sue, responded to the main point of my post, which was whether or
>not doctors should be more pro-active in encouraging BF'ing. And even when
>they did respond to that point, they did it from the point of view that
>they have the right to bottle-feed, not from the point of view of what was
>right for the baby.
>
I'd like to go on record right now as saying that I DO think that that doctors
ought to promote BFing. ALL mine did.......I just would prefer that they not go
so far in the direction of BFing that they make their patients feel the way my
doctors made me feel. I think that your very last sentence says it all really.
That you can post that sentence without even understanding just how rotten it
would make mothers like myself actually feel says even more. The fact is that I
DO have a right to bottle-feed..........WITHOUT being made to feel that I am
not making the `RIGHT` choice for my baby. In my opinion.........what is right
for me and MY baby.......IS what's right. Take a good, long, hard look at your
very last sentence. Picture it reversed.......and imagine how you would feel.
Any way that you want to cut it, Danielle...........you BF'ers get to sit back
and bask in the supposed knowledge that you've done what's `right`.......while
we bottle-feeders get to sit back and be made to feel guilty as hell.
Josie
wyn
playing "point-counterpoint"! ;-)
Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.
Sue
Ferberize or not to Ferberize issues have come up, this is long I know, read
a line or two a day,he-he. :)
Danielle, I understand where you are coming from. You are trying to "change
the world" and the world is not ready to be told what they have to do. It
probably comes down to rebellion in some, I am not going to do it because
"they" say I have to attitude.
I have done both. I have bottle-fed two, breast-fed one for a month. Between
the two, I will take bottle feeding over and over because that is what I
prefer. May be I will start out with bf, maybe I won't. When my children
have children and provided I can still have a memory at that time, I will
tell them the benefits of bf. You stated something about my children having
children, so that's what I assume you meant. That's taking on a pro-bf
attitude. If they don't want to, that is still there decision and I will
support them. As for the doctors, I don't know, maybe that is an issue you
would like to pursue. As for me, I think that putting some time into a
pregnancy shelter and teaching teenagers to be good parents would be better
served by you or how about a Lactation Consultant, there you go Danielle,
and I mean this nicely because you want so bad to help and your probably
very good at it.
It is still up to the parents, and I agree with everyone who has said that
we need to support one another, because this is lonely. I have stayed home 7
years now. I have worked on and off, but only with the help of my mom. Now
she is gone and I work at home. Other than seeing a few parents here and
there at school, and talking with my family a little here and there, I don't
talk to anyone. This newsgroup and a handful of friends and hubby of course,
but he works too, this is it. So lets support each other.
Okay, a little more.
Quickly, Ferberize not to Ferberize. I have never read his books or seen
too much of him on TV. My firstborn was probably a year at this point and
due to many health problems, did not know how to fall asleep on her own. She
did not want to sleep with us, but she was the type of child that really did
better when she could cry for a few minutes and go to sleep. She was still
taking a bottle to bed, again many health issues here at stake. I had to
break some habits because she was one year old. Dr. Ferber was on Oprah one
day and heard a brief stent on how to get them to sleep on their own. I had
to modify what he said to do, and that is the point that I am trying to
make, I took his advice and I modified it to my family's needs and it
worked. She needed to cry it out so she could relax and in five grueling
days, of no sleep because I was right there outside her door watching to
make sure she was not too upset, but she really would just go to sleep and
really was a more pleasant baby to be around. The other two children, I
didn't have to do that persay, but they did sleep in their own beds and when
they were not an infant they went to bed awake. So, why get so nasty. Ferber
and all of the other educated people are no different than our own mothers
telling us their opinion how to raise children. Everyone does it different
and for the most part, it sounds like we are doing a pretty good job. Some
of you are pretty uptight. I am not, I am more laid back and I am trying
very hard to understand my children's personality and trying to adapt to
that. Okay, sorry that is enough. My 2 cents take for what it is worth.
Sue B.
Lynne Murnane
But you can't reverse Danielle's last sentence. No one can legitimately
argue that they have a right to breastfeed, even if it's not quite as
good as bottle feeding, and that they shouldn't feel guilty about it.
That's what breastfeeding is for, and it will always be best except in
some select cases. If you truly feel that you have done the best for
your baby and that there is really no difference between breast and
bottle, then you shouldn't feel guilty about it, should you? Of course,
you also have the right to start the baby right out on watered-down
milk if you wish, although I doubt many people would argue that it's
best.
I agree with Danielle: it's unfortunate that so many women don't even
try. I just listened to a new mother explain how they had been trying
one formula after another because their daughter had so many digestive
problems. She was laughing because the most expensive formula seemed to
agree with her daughter the best. Obviously nursing, even for a month,
hadn't even occurred to her (and no, I didn't criticize; it seems as
though hardly any of these young women breastfeed at all.)
Lynne
wyn
And where does it stop, anyway... there are a whole lot of things that
could be considered health hazards that parents could be called
accountable for, with this line of thinking:
- circumcision
- a high fat/low fiber diet of red meat and Wonder bread
- radon in your house
- lead paint on your walls (huge issue for children under age 4....
have you had your house tested?)
- having a child even though you've got a genetic history for certain
disorders/diseases
- drugging a child with Ritalin instead of trying therapy or
homeschooling first ;-)
Get the picture? ***LIFE**** is risky. We do our best to balance out
the risks by making choices, trade-offs and reasoned decisions
according to our individual comfort levels.
Yes, breastfeeding is healthier. But I personally think that decades of
bottle-fed babies have proven that you CAN raise a perfectly healthy
and happy child on formula. It's been proven and time-tested. The
advantages are not significant enough to warrant massive legislation.
Frankly, if you're really concerned about your child's health, I'd be
more worried about lead paint than bottle-feeding. Now THERE's a health
issue for you.... how dare these parents choose to live in a pre '60s
house, knowing the risk of lead paint leading to stunted intellectual
growth??? (just kidding... although it is a very serious and real
health issue, with much more potential damage than, say,
bottlefeeding.). I hope you all have had your children lead-tested!
jen
Josephea L. Payne
<shinypenn...@webtv.net.invalid> writes:
>
>The MAJORITY of women do not work for progressive companies. 80% of the
>businesses today are SMALL businesses, with no means for onsite day
>care, or flexible work schedules.
>
I know that this was case for me. I have worked at many restaurants in 15
years.......but only at one that was a chain one. All the others were
independently owned and operated.........with no time for people with `issues`,
such as BFing, or anything else of a personal nature. Not to say that my
managers/owners were not supportive or sympathetic........it's just that they
had a business to run........and had better things to do than worry about each
employee's personal choices and problems.
Josie
Seth Jackson
:The thing is that while those who posted in reply to mine took the point of
:view that BF'ers are against bottle-feeders, almost no one, except for
:Josie and Sue, responded to the main point of my post, which was whether or
:not doctors should be more pro-active in encouraging BF'ing. And even when
:they did respond to that point, they did it from the point of view that
:they have the right to bottle-feed, not from the point of view of what was
:right for the baby.
FWIW, the hospital where our babies were born is very pro-breastfeeding. The
routine there is to send a lactation specialist in within hours after delivery
to get the breastfeeding process started.
Their attitude gave me the impression that all hospitals do this. I guess
that's incorrect.
- Seth Jackson
Get "Speak Up!", the new CD by Loudspeaker including the Top Ten hit "Leave Me Alone" at http://www.mp3.com/loudspeaker.
Seth Jackson
:Even when you have to back to work after 6 weeks, you can still breastfeed
:for a month or so!!
Question: is there any health benefit to breastfeeding for 6 weeks before
switching to formula? What about other time intervals, such as 3 months or 6
months? More generally, is there a minimum amount of time for breatfeeding
before the babies will realize a health benefit?
In our case, we had twins, and although my wife and I had every intention of
breastfeeding, she could not physically handle breastfeeding two babies. We
made a practical decision to feed each baby 50% breast milk and 50% formula for
3 months until my wife went back to work. Now, the babies are getting about
30-40% of their feeding via breast milk.
I'm wondering how much benefit our babies are getting from this, and if there's
a significant health benefit in continuing this limited breastfeeding for 6
months or beyond.
hamilton
<hitme...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On 20 Jan 2000 21:00:09 GMT, "D.Chenier" <danielle...@pwgsc.gc.ca> wrote:
>
> :Even when you have to back to work after 6 weeks, you can still breastfeed
> :for a month or so!!
>
> Question: is there any health benefit to breastfeeding for 6 weeks before
> switching to formula? What about other time intervals, such as 3 months or 6
> months? More generally, is there a minimum amount of time for breatfeeding
> before the babies will realize a health benefit?
>
> In our case, we had twins, and although my wife and I had every intention of
> breastfeeding, she could not physically handle breastfeeding two babies. We
> made a practical decision to feed each baby 50% breast milk and 50%
formula for
> 3 months until my wife went back to work. Now, the babies are getting about
> 30-40% of their feeding via breast milk.
>
> I'm wondering how much benefit our babies are getting from this, and if
there's
> a significant health benefit in continuing this limited breastfeeding for 6
> months or beyond.
>
> - Seth Jackson
there are fatty acids not available in formula that contribute to brain
develo-pment -- so partial or short term bf while not ideal -- is good for
babies. Many women can bf even after going to work if they supplement
with
formula during the day [others of course can manage pumping -- but it doesn;'t
work for everyone] Your twins are better off with some mother's milk with
its antibodies and brain enhancing nutrition. And since twins are more
vulnerable to early death and illness -- it is especially important for
them.
wyn
I'm sorry to hear you feel so isolated. I had a hard time with that
myself when I was a SAHM (for five years). I knew I was doing what I
wanted to do, but still it was rough.... I like people, and daily
contact. We're all social creatures, but unfortunately modern society
just doesn't seem to be designed for the SAHP. I wish it were different.
Thanks for your post.
wyn
What may seem like an uncaring attitude is actually probably more
complex than you think.
When I got pregnant with my first, I was working in a 40-member
company, and was the first and only professional woman. When I
announced I would not be returning, the owner confided in me his
frustration about being scared to hire women of childbearing age. He
was an honest, caring, pro-family, and religious man - he gave me 3
months PAID leave even though he didn't have to by state law - he was
also a very consciencious business man. He explained he just couldn't
afford to hire, train, pay out leave, only to have the employee resign
for motherhood. I can't say I blame him in this. He had 40 other people
he had to worry about - if the company was financially strapped due to
his generosity, everyone would suffer.
I proposed a plan to open an onsite daycare - we had the space, and he
was very willing to do this and even offered to hire a full-time
caregiver. It seemed like the ideal solution. But when we explored it
farther, the deal got killed due to exorbitant liability insurance.
Tampamom
Most of us have said that our doctors DID promote breastfeeding. She just
doesn't want to hear it because it doesn't fit with her agenda.
Marion-----Tampamom to Louis(6) and Erica(2)
"Keep your chin up...it gives the rest of your body a better chance at
fighting gravity"
Josephea L. Payne wrote in message
<20000120162815...@nso-fa.aol.com>...
>In article <01bf637d$03424600$5dd8e28e@DanielleChenier>, "D.Chenier"
><danielle...@pwgsc.gc.ca> writes:
>
>>
>>The thing is that while those who posted in reply to mine took the point
of
>>view that BF'ers are against bottle-feeders, almost no one, except for
>>Josie and Sue, responded to the main point of my post, which was whether
or
>>not doctors should be more pro-active in encouraging BF'ing. And even when
>>they did respond to that point, they did it from the point of view that
>>they have the right to bottle-feed, not from the point of view of what was
>>right for the baby.
>>
>
jennifer
wyn wrote:
> Danielle,
>
> I give up - you really don't get it, do you???
>
> This is *not* a health issue. It never has been. I'm not even sure it's
> really a cultural issue.
>
> Pure and simple, it's an ****ECONOMIC**** issue.
>
> We live in a two-income society. Women work. This is not the 1950s
> anymore.
>
Actually the 50's was where formula started to take off, wasn't it?
>
> The MAJORITY of women do not work for progressive companies. 80% of the
> businesses today are SMALL businesses, with no means for onsite day
> care, or flexible work schedules.
>
> Breastfeeding is inconvenient and unrealistic for today's working mom.
> I believe it comes down to weighing the advantages/disadvantages, and
> when you have to go back to work after 6 weeks or so, breastfeeding's
> disadvantages really do tip the scale in favor of bottle feeding.
>
In SOME cases. I went back to school full time and managed to still nurse my
daughter. No i didn't pump. I managed.
>
> Who in their right mind would put up with the pain and stress of trying
> to breastfeed for even one week, if they knew they were going to
> transition over to a bottle anyway?
>
Call me crazy.
Kendra
>But you can't reverse Danielle's last sentence. No one can legitimately
>argue that they have a right to breastfeed,
Tell that to the State of California. We had to have the issue actually go to
court to confirm that women have the right to breastfeed in public.
> even if it's not quite as
>good as bottle feeding, and that they shouldn't feel guilty about it.
>That's what breastfeeding is for, and it will always be best except in
>some select cases.
Perhaps "put yourself in my shoes" would have been better.
>I agree with Danielle: it's unfortunate that so many women don't even
>try. I just listened to a new mother explain how they had been trying
>one formula after another because their daughter had so many digestive
>problems. She was laughing because the most expensive formula seemed to
>agree with her daughter the best. Obviously nursing, even for a month,
>hadn't even occurred to her (and no, I didn't criticize; it seems as
>though hardly any of these young women breastfeed at all.)
>
Do you know for sure that she didn't want to even try?
I didn't get involved with the more recent thread so I don't know the comments
that were made, etc. I take comments about bottle feeding personally at times
because most of the time pro-bfd'ing people don't acknowledge that there are
bottle feeders out there, or reading their posts, who physically can't bfd.
Those who feel there wasn't a choice will take offense, etc at such posts.
(and then there are those who will tell us that we just didn't know what we
were doing and refuse to listen) This isn't directed at Danielle, the original
poster in this thread. This has just been my experience on Usenet in the past
two years.
That said, Breastfeeding *is* a health issue. I hate seeing a formula
commercial the way they are portrayed now. What they *should* do is promote
formula as a last resort when mom has physical problems with breastfeeding. (as
opposed to their vague 'Breast is Best, but....') In bottle commercials it
would be nice to see a breast pump in the background.
I didn't have to be at work after having my daughter but I did work. Even
though I wasn't punching someone else's clock (I owned the time clock) I
didn't stay home. I tried like hell to bfd and that included supplementing at
the breast every other feeding with a plastic syringe and pumping every chance
I got and took herbs. It's not difficult to hide under a blanket. I pumped in
the car, at the restaurant, next to the lake, behind the counter at work, etc.
With my son we used the supplemental thing that hangs around your neck.
I know I'll get flamed to hell and back for this, but breastfeeding should be
the first consideration. If I could do what I did to stretch what little milk
I had to 3 months of breastfeeding, then I don't see how someone who has a full
supply couldn't at the very least, pump under a blanket and the public opinion
be damned.
AND..... never assume that someone you know nothing about is bottle feeding by
choice.
(off my box, fire away)
Kendra
~*~
Y2 KINGS!
Bench Mob Rules.
Josephea L. Payne
<hitme...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>FWIW, the hospital where our babies were born is very pro-breastfeeding. The
>routine there is to send a lactation specialist in within hours after
>delivery
>to get the breastfeeding process started.
>
>Their attitude gave me the impression that all hospitals do this. I guess
>that's incorrect.
>
I don't think it's incorrect for everywhere. I know that the hospitals I gave
birth at had them coming into each mom's room to help
Josephea L. Payne
<murnane...@my-dejanews.com.invalid> writes:
>
>But you can't reverse Danielle's last sentence. No one can legitimately
>argue that they have a right to breastfeed, even if it's not quite as
>good as bottle feeding, and that they shouldn't feel guilty about it.
>That's what breastfeeding is for, and it will always be best except in
>some select cases. If you truly feel that you have done the best for
>your baby and that there is really no difference between breast and
>bottle, then you shouldn't feel guilty about it, should you?
Yes, you can reverse the last sentence. I was referring to the part about
what's `right` for baby. In my opinion...if Mommy is miserable because she is
breastfeeding for WHATEVER reason, or if she just chooses not to for her own
reasons.................then it's not right for her baby. Besides, as I
said.....there was a time in this country when ALL the doctors thought and
believed that bottle-feeding WAS the ONLY way, the best way, the right way. I'm
sure that many mommies of that day felt like saying and arguing that it was
their `right` to breastfeed. And by the way.......I do NOT feel guilty about
bottle-feeding my children. I merely resent GREATLY the attempt to make me feel
so.
Josie
wyn
the room, they also held 3-night classes in BFing as part of birth
preparation. After discharge, each new mom got the phone number of an
LC they could call, any hour round the clock (I took advantage of that).
I remember, too, that in the hospital the nurses made a point of asking
you whether you wanted to feed on demand, so they would bring the
infant in when it cried during the night, or not - in which case they
gave a bottle and let you sleep.
Lesa
>
> FWIW, the hospital where our babies were born is very pro-breastfeeding.
The
> routine there is to send a lactation specialist in within hours after
delivery
> to get the breastfeeding process started.
>
> Their attitude gave me the impression that all hospitals do this. I guess
> that's incorrect.
>
>
The hospital where my 2nd was born had an LC right there in the delivery
room, insisting that you must BF immediatly after birth since it will help
reduce your utures faster. I told her to buzz off--I have an "ineffective
uturine contractions" and labor had gone on for 6 days--I new she didn't
need food at that time and had no energy or desire to BF at that time. I
got a lecture.
I also got a lecture about bonding when I told them I wanted her cleaned up
before I saw her and demanded that she be removed from my abdomen
immediately after birth.
Lesa
Lynne Murnane
ken...@aol.comhairle (Kendra) wrote:
Lynne wrote:
> >I agree with Danielle: it's unfortunate that so many women don't
> even
> >try. I just listened to a new mother explain how they had been
> trying
> >one formula after another because their daughter had so many
> digestive
> >problems. She was laughing because the most expensive formula
> seemed to
> >agree with her daughter the best. Obviously nursing, even for a
> month,
> >hadn't even occurred to her (and no, I didn't criticize; it seems
> as
> >though hardly any of these young women breastfeed at all.)
> >
> Do you know for sure that she didn't want to even try?
Yes, I do, by the way, and I have also heard plenty of young women just
discussing formula when they are pregnant, just as they compare prices
for disposables (I did cloth) -- it is quite obvious that breastfeeding
is out of the question. I also know plenty of people who say
breastfeeding is disgusting and that they would be appalled if their
daughter tried it.
Hey, people need to do what they need to do, but believe me, there are
plenty of women who will not even consider breastfeeding (and no, I
don't think it makes them bad mothers or that they are evil, just that
bf is preferable, and I wish family situations were more geared to
women staying home for awhile so they can enjoy their babies instead of
returning to work immediately). I can and do make general comments
about people, but the above refer to people I actually know.
Lynne
Lynne
Lynne Murnane
comment about guilt because you brought it up; when I do something I
really feel strongly about (like not having television) I don't feel
anything about other people's opinions. I don't resent them telling me
about all the good stuff that's on television; I just really don't care
what they do (I don't mean that I don't care about them as people, just
that they can do as they please). And I do realize that deflecting
other people's opinions on some things doesn't necessarily make me
right, but I certainly don't take it as trying to make me feel guilty.
D.Chenier
<c58f8s4h7ia3hssvp...@4ax.com>...
> On 20 Jan 2000 21:00:09 GMT, "D.Chenier" <danielle...@pwgsc.gc.ca>
wrote:
>
> :Even when you have to back to work after 6 weeks, you can still
breastfeed
> :for a month or so!!
>
> Question: is there any health benefit to breastfeeding for 6 weeks before
> switching to formula?
Answer: YES, YES, YES. Every feed of breast milk that you give is
beneficial, especially in the initial weeks, where the breastmilk contains
all those antibodies to help the newborn survive life out of the womb.
What about other time intervals, such as 3 months or 6
> months? More generally, is there a minimum amount of time for
breatfeeding
> before the babies will realize a health benefit?
>
As far as I know there is no minimum or maximum of time for breastfeeding,
because every feeding counts. The longer you breastfeed, the more
beneficial, because the more likely the baby will be equipped to fight off
infections. Furthermore, the baby's digestive system also matures
gradually, therefore, the closer you are to the end of the first 6 months
or, preferably, of the first year, before you introduce either formula or
cow's milk, the more likely the baby will be able to digest it.
> In our case, we had twins, and although my wife and I had every intention
of
> breastfeeding, she could not physically handle breastfeeding two babies.
We
> made a practical decision to feed each baby 50% breast milk and 50%
formula for
> 3 months until my wife went back to work. Now, the babies are getting
about
> 30-40% of their feeding via breast milk.
>
That's an excellent decision and your babies are benefitting from it.
> I'm wondering how much benefit our babies are getting from this, and if
there's
> a significant health benefit in continuing this limited breastfeeding for
6
> months or beyond.
By the time I returned to work, my daughter was 6 months and she continued
to breastfeed until she was 3.5 yo. From the time I returned to work, she
was receiving a mix of breastmilk, solids and formula/cow's milk. Even
then, she was a whole lot more likely to not get all those little germies
her older brother took home from school, and, when she did, she was whole
lot more likely to recover quickly.
If your wife can handle it, you can be sure the babies are benefitting from
it.
D.Chenier
of
> :view that BF'ers are against bottle-feeders, almost no one, except for
> :Josie and Sue, responded to the main point of my post, which was whether
or
> :not doctors should be more pro-active in encouraging BF'ing. And even
when
> :they did respond to that point, they did it from the point of view that
> :they have the right to bottle-feed, not from the point of view of what
was
> :right for the baby.
>
The
> routine there is to send a lactation specialist in within hours after
delivery
> to get the breastfeeding process started.
>
You were very lucky. Where my kids were born, the hospital staff still
assumes that a breastfeeding mother wants to rest at night, and will give
bottles without even asking the mom. MOM has to tell them not to give
bottles. And they still give pacifiers. And they still do not have the
services of lactation consultants. One of the things that lead to
breastfeeding failure when my son was born was that I was instructed by the
nursery staff to nurse for 20 minutes on one side and 10 minutes on the
other side. Later on, much later on, I found that breaking the latch in
this way may lead to improper latch. It is much better to let baby set the
pace and let him/her nurse for as long as they want before switching sides.
> Their attitude gave me the impression that all hospitals do this. I
guess
> that's incorrect.
>
>
Unfortunately, you were incorrect.
Barchet
<shinypenn...@webtv.net.invalid> writes:
>Frankly, if you're really concerned about your child's health, I'd be
>more worried about lead paint than bottle-feeding. Now THERE's a health
>issue for you.... how dare these parents choose to live in a pre '60s
>house, knowing the risk of lead paint leading to stunted intellectual
>growth??? (just kidding... although it is a very serious and real
>health issue, with much more potential damage than, say,
>bottlefeeding.). I hope you all have had your children lead-tested!
>
>jen
In my area, with my HMO (Kaiser), not only is breastfeeding promoted, ALL
children are tested for lead poisoning at their 1-year check up. And possibly
their 2-year.
Denise
...who did manage to nurse her kids while working. Had to educate a lot of
people, though. (I'm stubborn, too. <G>)...
To e-mail me directly, remember an object at rest tends to stay at rest...
D.Chenier
> room, insisting that you must BF immediatly after birth since it will
help
> reduce your utures faster. I told her to buzz off--I have an
"ineffective
> uturine contractions" and labor had gone on for 6 days--I new she didn't
> need food at that time and had no energy or desire to BF at that time. I
> got a lecture.
>
Actually, the LC was right: the sooner after birth the baby nurses, the
most likely you are to succeed at breastfeeding. Immediately after birth,
baby and mom are both especially allert to each other, much so than later
on in the first few days of life.
> I also got a lecture about bonding when I told them I wanted her cleaned
up
> before I saw her and demanded that she be removed from my abdomen
> immediately after birth.
That's strange. Most moms insist on bonding immediately after baby is born,
and the nursing staff are the ones wanting to clean up the baby.
Georgia Pritchett
Kendra wrote in message <20000120213007...@ng-ch1.aol.com>...
>Do you know for sure that she didn't want to even try?
>
>I didn't get involved with the more recent thread so I don't know the
comments
>that were made, etc. I take comments about bottle feeding personally at
times
>because most of the time pro-bfd'ing people don't acknowledge that there
are
>bottle feeders out there, or reading their posts, who physically can't bfd.
>Those who feel there wasn't a choice will take offense, etc at such posts.
>(and then there are those who will tell us that we just didn't know what we
>were doing and refuse to listen) This isn't directed at Danielle, the
original
>poster in this thread. This has just been my experience on Usenet in the
past
>two years.
Well, it's been my experience for more than 11 years. It was like this back
in
1988 when my son was born (and news groups were kinder and gentler then,
yeah right :-)
>
>AND..... never assume that someone you know nothing about is bottle
feeding by
>choice.
And, never assume you know more than their doctor or every lactation
consultant they saw so that you have to pick apart their comments and
say "Well, I don't know where you got that idea. If you would have just
tried harder, it would have worked" or my personal favorite "You must
not have REALLY wanted to breastfeed."
I am a firm believer in breastfeeding. I encourage everyone I know to
try it. I have to wonder about the comments about doctors and hospitals
not doing enough because both Ohio State University Hospital in Columbus, OH
and Salinas Valley Memorial in Salinas, CA had classes available and
lactation consultants there. Since I chose not to try to breastfeed
Corinne based on my horrible experience with Chris, I had to say to
at least every single nurse I saw for the 2 days I was in the hospital
"No, I'm not breastfeeding her. Yes, I know breast is best but I have
my reasons." No, I didn't explain them--why should I have to. I
did discuss it with my doctor and we talked about migraine triggers
being funny things. I had no migraines while pregnant with Chris
and constant ones while pregnant with Corinne (a horror I would
not wish on my worst enemy). I was so physically exhausted after
9 months of straight migraines with no relief (except the occasional
demerol shot to knock me out) that I wanted to go straight onto
preventatives to try and break the cycle.
I will defend to my dying breath the right of any woman to breastfeed.
I will encourage it. But, I will tell any woman suffering from an
increase in migraine activity while breastfeeding, that, contrary to
what most lactation consultants tell you, breastfeeding CAN trigger
migraines. And I will be sensitive to any woman who says she
has problems breastfeeding whatever those problems may be.
I don't live in their skin and it isn't my right to judge them.
Georgia
D.Chenier
<20000120162815...@nso-fa.aol.com>...
> In article <01bf637d$03424600$5dd8e28e@DanielleChenier>, "D.Chenier"
> <danielle...@pwgsc.gc.ca> writes:
>
> >
of
> >view that BF'ers are against bottle-feeders, almost no one, except for
> >Josie and Sue, responded to the main point of my post, which was whether
or
> >not doctors should be more pro-active in encouraging BF'ing. And even
when
> >they did respond to that point, they did it from the point of view that
> >they have the right to bottle-feed, not from the point of view of what
was
> >right for the baby.
> >
>
doctors
> ought to promote BFing. ALL mine did.......I just would prefer that they
not go
> so far in the direction of BFing that they make their patients feel the
way my
> doctors made me feel.
I agree with you. Being pro-active, especially for a medical person, is not
insulting those who don't agree. It's trying to convince them through
giving them proper information.
I think that your very last sentence says it all really.
> That you can post that sentence without even understanding just how
rotten it
> would make mothers like myself actually feel says even more.
Well, most of those who replied to gist of my post said that they don't
think that doctors should encourage or enforce breastfeeding because
bottlefeeding is more convenient. So far, no one even attempted to say
that, at least, formula is second best to breastfeeding.
D.Chenier
<03e6ae67...@usw-ex0102-010.remarq.com>...
Thank you Lynne, because your experience is very much the same as mine:
most women I know DO NOT attempt breastfeeding. They'd rather pay those
exhorbitant formula prices, and switch formulas, even switch a 3 mo to
cow's milk, rather than attempt BF'ing.
THAT's what I don't understand.
D.Chenier
<ASLh4.4940$nb5....@news.rdc2.mi.home.com>...
As for the doctors, I don't know, maybe that is an issue you
> would like to pursue. As for me, I think that putting some time into a
> pregnancy shelter and teaching teenagers to be good parents would be
better
> served by you or how about a Lactation Consultant, there you go Danielle,
> and I mean this nicely because you want so bad to help and your probably
> very good at it.
>
Unfortunately, right now, I don't have time to spend on advocating this
issue any other place than in my own doctor's office, where I have been
known to question all the free samples they hand out and the fact that he
not any more pro-bf than he is, because I have to advocate for Special
Needs children in my area in order to ensure that my son obtains all the
accommodations he requires. One of those campaigns is more than enough,
believe me!!
wyn
bar...@aol.commotion (Barchet) wrote:
> In article <0dab8567...@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com>, wyn
> <shinypenn...@webtv.net.invalid> writes:
> >Frankly, if you're really concerned about your child's health,
> I'd be
> >more worried about lead paint than bottle-feeding. Now THERE's a
> health
> >issue for you.... how dare these parents choose to live in a pre
> '60s
> >house, knowing the risk of lead paint leading to stunted
> intellectual
> >growth??? (just kidding... although it is a very serious and real
> >health issue, with much more potential damage than, say,
> >bottlefeeding.). I hope you all have had your children
> lead-tested!
> >
> >jen
> In my area, with my HMO (Kaiser), not only is breastfeeding
> promoted, ALL
> children are tested for lead poisoning at their 1-year check up.
> And possibly
> their 2-year.
> Denise
Good - and same here. I think it's a law in the states, to test yearly
until age 4 or 5.
It does amaze me, though, how little parents know about the lead paint
issue. I hope everyone knows how dangerous it is to do renovations or
scrape off old paint when you have a child under age 5. This apparently
is how most kids get lead into their systems.
A common misperception is that only inner city kids who are neglected
end up with lead poisoning - it's just not true. I'm in the most
progressive state on this issue - we lead the way with legislation. If
you look at the stats, it's actually the kids in the wealthiest homes
that are most likely to get poisoned! Why? Because they have a higher
rate of renovations. Lead dust gets all over the place and the child is
endangered.
jen
D.Chenier
<0dab8567...@usw-ex0102-015.remarq.com>...
>
> And where does it stop, anyway... there are a whole lot of things that
> could be considered health hazards that parents could be called
> accountable for, with this line of thinking:
>
> - circumcision
>
> - a high fat/low fiber diet of red meat and Wonder bread
>
> - radon in your house
>
> - lead paint on your walls (huge issue for children under age 4....
> have you had your house tested?)
>
> - having a child even though you've got a genetic history for certain
> disorders/diseases
>
> - drugging a child with Ritalin instead of trying therapy or
> homeschooling first ;-)
>
Jen, you already know that I am advocating for the rights of special needs
children and I'm on the band wagon about many health issues, including
eliminating ciragette smoke around young children. I don't know where it
stops. All I know, is can't stop caring.
D.Chenier
> more worried about lead paint than bottle-feeding. Now THERE's a health
> issue for you.... how dare these parents choose to live in a pre '60s
> house, knowing the risk of lead paint leading to stunted intellectual
> growth??? (just kidding... although it is a very serious and real
> health issue, with much more potential damage than, say,
> bottlefeeding.). I hope you all have had your children lead-tested!
FWIW, my husband is a painter by trade and always makes it a must to
re-paint every room whenever we move into a new place. Yes, we are well
aware of the risks of lead paint: he's been exposed himself and is very
concerned with the possibility of cancer and other conditions from all the
chemicals he's been in contacts with.
D.Chenier
<8686kh$3t8$1...@news.laserlink.net>...
> Josie,
>
> Most of us have said that our doctors DID promote breastfeeding. She
just
> doesn't want to hear it because it doesn't fit with her agenda.
O please, I don't have an agenda, just a question I'd like to be
answered!!! My experience with doctors is not only consitent with others'
experience in my own area, it is consistent with what others post on
breastfeeding support groups. And these posts are from around the world.
Yes, some states seem to have more BF conscious doctors and hospitals, most
don't. And Canada certainly doesn't.
mai...@webtv.net
I'm with you. I do think that Dr.' and other care givers should by all
means encourage BF more than most do. I know with my first, as soon as I
hit a snag, my Dr. strongly suggested I switch to a bottle. It would be
so much easier and my daughter already had some benefits from the BF I
did. I had no one else to talk to about it. My mom and MIL never
breastfed. None of my friends did then either. I never even heard of the
La Leche League and support was never offered. With each child I had, I
BF longer but still received no support to speak of when I was on the
fence about when to stop. I was actually encouraged to stop. If I ever
have anymore children, you can be sure I won't quit as soon as I did.
When I know better, I do better.
I usually stay out of this issue because of the anger that develops. But
here goes anyway. I do believe it should be an issue of what is best for
the baby. I do wholeheartedly believe all women should breastfeed. At
least for the first three months. Some women will hate it no matter
what. It won't be a matter of the baby, it will concern them or work or
time and convenience. Something I also don't believe in.
My husband and I, if I worked, could certainly have a bigger home, two
cars and family vacations. We choose not to. I stay home with the kids
and we have only one vehicle and a small house and have taken one family
vacation in 10 years. I never thought we could do it but we have just
fine. We are a very happy family with very happy kids. Nothing has
suffered because of less money, in spite of it, we have all thrived.
Now I am not saying that people with more money can not be happy and
thriving, I'm just saying it is a matter of priorities. I know plenty of
single mothers who breastfeed, work with no financial support and even
homeschool as well. It's not easy, but very possible. It's a matter of
what is really important to you.
Mainmom to
Tara (14) Joseph (5) Sierra (4)
Marie
D.Chenier wrote in message
<01bf642c$b810a360$5dd8e28e@DanielleChenier>...
immediately after baby is born,
>and the nursing staff are the ones wanting to clean up
the baby.
Most women I know also wanted their babies as soon as
they were born. I didn't care about mine being clean. I
wanted to hold her lovingly and look into her eyes and
talk to her before anyone else took her away.
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
D.Chenier
<oT1i4.18645$pb2.1...@tw11.nn.bcandid.com>...
>
> D.Chenier wrote in message
> <01bf642c$b810a360$5dd8e28e@DanielleChenier>...
> they were born. I didn't care about mine being clean. I
> wanted to hold her lovingly and look into her eyes and
> talk to her before anyone else took her away.
> Marie
> http://go.to/mommydowis
In my case, I especially wanted to make sure that my baby was ok. After
all, especially with the second, I was so "old"!! (I was almost 35 when my
1st was born and 39 when my second was born!!!)
However, like you, I didn't care whether or not they were washed. Actually,
where they were born, they don't wash them until their body heat has had a
chance to stabilize a little. It is a common practice to proceed this way
around here.
D.Chenier
<6191-38...@storefull-127.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
> My husband and I, if I worked, could certainly have a bigger home, two
> cars and family vacations. We choose not to. I stay home with the kids
> and we have only one vehicle and a small house and have taken one family
> vacation in 10 years. I never thought we could do it but we have just
> fine. We are a very happy family with very happy kids. Nothing has
> suffered because of less money, in spite of it, we have all thrived.
> Now I am not saying that people with more money can not be happy and
> thriving, I'm just saying it is a matter of priorities. I know plenty of
> single mothers who breastfeed, work with no financial support and even
> homeschool as well. It's not easy, but very possible. It's a matter of
> what is really important to you.
>
In our case, as it is the case with most dual income families, it is not
really a matter of financial ease. It is a matter of survival. We simply
would not be able to make ends meet if I didn't work: I have the highest
income and the most stable job. It is not a matter of a small house or a
bigger house, it is a matter of a two bedroom appartment in a bad district,
or a rented semi-detached in a reasonable district. It is not a matter of
one care or two, it is a matter of having a car at all.
Not everyone's husband earns enough to adequately support a whole family.
Furthermore, with my nature and my children's nature, I'm not a good SAH
candidate. I tried it, was miserable and made everyone around me miserable.
I enjoy the company of other adults and the satisfaction of my job. It is
also a matter of ensuring our future: in my field, a 5 year sabaticaly
would mean not being able to work. Starting back at entry level is not only
bad for your ego, it is also bad economically and it is not always
feasible: employers are weary of over-qualified employees.
Not everyone has it in them to be a SAHM.
It doesn't mean we are not as caring for our families and that we have the
wrong priorities. It simply means our priorities are different.
Burnette
children shouldn't really be a choice?
Josephea L. Payne
mai...@webtv.net writes:
>It won't be a matter of the baby, it will concern them or work or
>time and convenience. Something I also don't believe in.
So you obviously don't believe in the adage that if mommy is happy......baby is
happy? BTW, not everyone can just chuck work for the sake of baby. For some of
us out here, it's the work that enabled us to be able to afford to have baby to
begin with. I know that when we started our family.....dh was still finishing
college and I WAS the main breadwinner......working full time until about 5
years ago just to make ends meet. What should I have done?
>
>My husband and I, if I worked, could certainly have a bigger home, two
>cars and family vacations. We choose not to. I stay home with the kids
>and we have only one vehicle and a small house and have taken one family
>vacation in 10 years. I never thought we could do it but we have just
>fine. We are a very happy family with very happy kids. Nothing has
>suffered because of less money, in spite of it, we have all thrived.
>Now I am not saying that people with more money can not be happy and
>thriving, I'm just saying it is a matter of priorities. I know plenty of
>single mothers who breastfeed, work with no financial support and even
>homeschool as well. It's not easy, but very possible.
ANYTHING is possible. Doesn't mean that we ALL have to or even should choose
this if it isn't what we want out of life. I'm the last one on earth to say
that money is the end-all.....it's clearly not. Some of us out here though DO
work because we need to. I just recently stopped working, due to extended
family occurances and the fact that my mother now longer feels up to watching
my youngest......so we will have to watch expenses much more closely than
before. However, during the majority of the time that we've been
married.......and especially early on, when we first began having
children.....my income WAS needed badly.
It's a matter of
>what is really important to you.
Once again......the ever so subtle implication that if only our priorities were
`right` and if only we knew what was `really` important........we'd surely just
stay home and breastfeed.
Josie
Josephea L. Payne
<murnane...@my-dejanews.com.invalid> writes:
>You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I made the
>comment about guilt because you brought it up; when I do something I
>really feel strongly about (like not having television) I don't feel
>anything about other people's opinions. I don't resent them telling me
>about all the good stuff that's on television; I just really don't care
>what they do (I don't mean that I don't care about them as people, just
>that they can do as they please). And I do realize that deflecting
>other people's opinions on some things doesn't necessarily make me
>right, but I certainly don't take it as trying to make me feel guilty.
You're right in what you say. But I don't ever feel guilty either because I'm
doing something that I made a choice to do and others comment on. But
commenting on it........such as your example of tv..........is completely
different. I wouldn't feel that they were trying to make me feel guilty if they
started telling me what good shows there were that were on.........but I would
think/feel that they were trying to make me feel guilty if they said things
like allowing my children to watch tv was THE only way to go.......that I
couldn't really bond with my children if I didn't let them watch tv......that I
couldn't really care about their health unless I let them watch tv.......that I
was doing them a major disservice by not letting them watch tv...... that I was
depriving them of a healthy start in life if I didn't let them watch
tv........and constantly asking me just why I chose not to let them watch tv,
because after all.......everyone KNOWS that watching tv is the only healthy or
wise way to raise children etc....etc....I think that you might change your
tune about their motives, much less about how you'd actually feel.....if this
were the case with your tv analogy.
Josie
D.Chenier
<3888C6D5...@mindspring.com>...
> Now how would you feel there a thread saying Staying Home with your
> children shouldn't really be a choice?
>
There's been threads like these, especially on the breastfeeding forums,
numerous times. What it boils down to is that studies show that there is,
in fact, very little difference in the outcome of children, whether they
were by SAH parents or by WOH parents, in day cares.
While the ones who have SAHM may have stronger bonds, they are often not as
well equipped to face the institutions of school. They haven't been used to
taking orders or being directed by others than members in their family.
However, as they grow, and as all children get used to school, the gap
narrows to nothing.
The issue is different where breastfeeding is concerned: statistically
(this is to leave out anecdotal reports), breastfed children are healthier
than bottle fed children.
TwinMom
year. It was not some mother earth mother-child bonding thing for me, I did
it Solely for health reasons. (In truth, I felt like Bessy-the-cow for a
while there - 20+ ounce pumpings!!) Everything I read (and I read alot!!!!)
told me that it was better because of the fatty acids, immuno agents, brain
enzymes, muscle development of the jaw, yada yada - there was so much info.
Also, on the economic side, I can't begin to tell you how much $$ we saved
by BFing. And convenience?? - no warming bottles, no on-the-road
sterilization issues. We made a firm commitment to the boys to the one year
mark, I had read that the benefits declined from 6 months to one year and
after one year, they should be on more solid food anyway so the benes really
went down. I did go back to work outside the home when the boys were 6-12
months old, and we rented a professional pump, so their caretaker did have
to warm some bottles, but the cost of the pump was Nothing compared to
formula! Did they get any health benes?? I couldn't tell you absolutely, but
I can tell you that my boys are Very Smart, have very few colds, and only 1
ear infection between the 2 in 4 years.
Danielle, re: the docs - we dumped ours when the boys were 2 months old
because he did Not support my choice to BF, told me it was impossible to
nourish 2 babes and recommended formula. That's why it's important to have
multiple sources of info 'cause the local twins club & a lactation
consultant helped me get and stay on track with my decision.
That's just IMHO folks. :L
"Seth Jackson" <hitme...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:c58f8s4h7ia3hssvp...@4ax.com...
> On 20 Jan 2000 21:00:09 GMT, "D.Chenier" <danielle...@pwgsc.gc.ca>
wrote:
>
> :Even when you have to back to work after 6 weeks, you can still
breastfeed
> :for a month or so!!
>
> Question: is there any health benefit to breastfeeding for 6 weeks before
or 6
> months? More generally, is there a minimum amount of time for breatfeeding
> before the babies will realize a health benefit?
>
of
> breastfeeding, she could not physically handle breastfeeding two babies.
We
> made a practical decision to feed each baby 50% breast milk and 50%
formula for
> 3 months until my wife went back to work. Now, the babies are getting
about
> 30-40% of their feeding via breast milk.
>
there's
> a significant health benefit in continuing this limited breastfeeding for
6
> months or beyond.
>
>
> Get "Speak Up!", the new CD by Loudspeaker including the Top Ten hit
"Leave Me Alone" at http://www.mp3.com/loudspeaker.
EmmaAnne
> Not everyone has it in them to be a SAHM.
>
> It doesn't mean we are not as caring for our families and that we have the
> wrong priorities. It simply means our priorities are different.
And not everyone has it in them to breastfeed.
Tampamom
D.Chenier wrote in message <01bf6434$3da713e0$5dd8e28e@DanielleChenier>...
>O please, I don't have an agenda, just a question I'd like to be
>answered!!! My experience with doctors is not only consitent with others'
>experience in my own area, it is consistent with what others post on
>breastfeeding support groups
But it isn't consistent with what's been posted HERE!
Marion-----Tampamom to Louis(6) and Erica(2)
"Keep your chin up...it gives the rest of your body a better chance at
fighting gravity"
Josephea L. Payne
<liz...@telepath.com> writes:
>
>Yes, it should be encouraged more... but trying to enforce
>breastfeeding? I don't think that would work. There will always
>be someone wanting the other option for whatever reason.
>Besides... how would you "enforce" breastfeeding?
Don't be silly. All the BF'ers really want is to install a group of their
radicals into the police force in every city and town......knock on doors and
give citations to those caught with bottles in the house. They would call it
the "The Boob Patrol". When it went to court......if ya couldn't squirt some
milk out of your boobs........off to the boobey hatch you would go. Twenty
years to life.
Josie............
it's a joke, guys, okay?
Tampamom
>I remember, too, that in the hospital the nurses made a point of asking
>you whether you wanted to feed on demand, so they would bring the
>infant in when it cried during the night, or not - in which case they
>gave a bottle and let you sleep.
>
>jen
>
The hospital I gave birth at does not even have a nursery except for the
NICU. All babies are expected to room-in with mom. If you do not want the
baby in your room at night, they keep it at the nurses station!
Marion----Tampamom to Louis(6) and Erica(2)
Tampamom
out of the recovery room!
Marion-----Tampamom to Louis(6) and Erica (2)
"Keep your chin up...it gives the rest of your body a better chance at
fighting gravity"
Josephea L. Payne wrote in message
<20000121003554...@nso-fp.aol.com>...
>In article <vs7f8sg8ufho96k9s...@4ax.com>, Seth Jackson
><hitme...@mindspring.com> writes:
>
>>
>>FWIW, the hospital where our babies were born is very pro-breastfeeding.
The
>>routine there is to send a lactation specialist in within hours after
>>delivery
>>to get the breastfeeding process started.
>>
>>Their attitude gave me the impression that all hospitals do this. I guess
>>that's incorrect.
>>
>
>I don't think it's incorrect for everywhere. I know that the hospitals I
gave
>birth at had them coming into each mom's room to help
>
>
>
Tampamom
Marie wrote in message ...
>Most women I know also wanted their babies as soon as
>they were born. I didn't care about mine being clean. I
>wanted to hold her lovingly and look into her eyes and
>talk to her before anyone else took her away.
>Marie
>http://go.to/mommydowis
I did, but couldn't do it. Because of the C section, I had one arm
strapped down with the IV and the other arm strapped down with the blood
pressure monitor. They put the kids on me, but my DH had to hold them in
place...what a nightmare.
Marion----Tampamom to Louis(6) and Erica (2)
"Keep your chin up...it gives your body a better chance at fighting gravity"
MariMc25
>routine there is to send a lactation specialist in within hours after
>delivery
>to get the breastfeeding process started.
I wish the hospital I had my second son had been like that. Instead, it seemed
they were trying to sabatoge my bfing efforts. First, they feed my son a
bottle the day after he was born. He was born by C-section, and I spent a long
time in the recovery room and was kind of out of it when I tried to first bf
him, so I woke up the next morning looking forward to trying again. I kept
asking for my son, but they said they were waiting for the ped to see him. I
guess he got hungry while they were waiting so they fed him 3.5oz of formula.
They didn't tell me this, but it was on his chart that was hanging from his
bassinet. Needless to say, he was not hungry for hours after that. When I
finally had him semi-awake, and was trying to get him interested in bf, in
comes the nurse and says they have to take him back to the nursery and put him
under the bili lights because of jaundice. I pleaded for thirty more minutes,
but they hinted that if he didn't go right then, he might not be able to go
home with me. I was very upset and one of the other nurses came to try and
calm me down, but I know that thirty minutes would not have made a big
difference on his bilirubin level. Anyway, later that day, they told me that I
couldn't bf for the next 48 hours because that would make the jaundice worse.
I was new to bfing, and didn't even know what a pump was and the nurses didn't
offer me one during that time frame. I would have never gotten one at all if
one of the aides hadn't mentioned it.
I did end up bfing my son, but my milk supply was low and I had to supplement
with formula. After two months, I gave up.
I am pregnant now, and I'm much wiser about bfing. My unborn child has a 50/50
chance of being jaundiced again because of a hereditary blood disorder, but
this time I will make sure that they allow me to bf the baby even if it is
jaundiced.
Maybe in the eleven years since my second son, the hospital will have become
enlightened about bfing.
Mary
HodgePodge:info on Homeschooling, Hereditary Spherocytosis and Fanfiction:
http://hometown.aol.com/marimc25/index.html
Seth Jackson
:The hospital I gave birth at does not even have a nursery except for the
:NICU. All babies are expected to room-in with mom. If you do not want the
:baby in your room at night, they keep it at the nurses station!
Same at our hospital.
Mette Sabram
guilty when breastfeeding women are talking about right choices?
You know what is right. Even formula makers say that breast is best (because
they have to). So you KNOW. But you made a choice because you have a "right"
to bottlefeed.
So you feeling guilty is no ones fault but your own. If you don't want to
feel guilty, then make the right choices.
And quite frankly..."what is right for ME and my baby is right" doesn't hold
true.
If I started feeding my baby cereal at week 1 because I had a "right" to and
because I thought it was right for me and my baby" that still would't be the
best choice.
Because it has been scientificially proven otherwise. Now if I did it anyway
I would have to accept to guilt concept of not doing the best thing for my
child.
Josephea L. Payne wrote in message
<20000120162815...@nso-fa.aol.com>...
>In article <01bf637d$03424600$5dd8e28e@DanielleChenier>, "D.Chenier"
><danielle...@pwgsc.gc.ca> writes:
>
>>
>>The thing is that while those who posted in reply to mine took the point
of
>>view that BF'ers are against bottle-feeders, almost no one, except for
>>Josie and Sue, responded to the main point of my post, which was whether
or
>>not doctors should be more pro-active in encouraging BF'ing. And even when
>>they did respond to that point, they did it from the point of view that
>>they have the right to bottle-feed, not from the point of view of what was
>>right for the baby.
>>
>
>I'd like to go on record right now as saying that I DO think that that
doctors
>ought to promote BFing. ALL mine did.......I just would prefer that they
not go
>so far in the direction of BFing that they make their patients feel the way
my
>doctors made me feel. I think that your very last sentence says it all
really.
>That you can post that sentence without even understanding just how rotten
it
>would make mothers like myself actually feel says even more. The fact is
that I
>DO have a right to bottle-feed..........WITHOUT being made to feel that I
am
>not making the `RIGHT` choice for my baby. In my opinion.........what is
right
>for me and MY baby.......IS what's right. Take a good, long, hard look at
your
>very last sentence. Picture it reversed.......and imagine how you would
feel.
>Any way that you want to cut it, Danielle...........you BF'ers get to sit
back
>and bask in the supposed knowledge that you've done what's
`right`.......while
>we bottle-feeders get to sit back and be made to feel guilty as hell.
>
>Josie
>
>
>
>
>
Seth Jackson
:
:> Their attitude gave me the impression that all hospitals do this. I
:guess
:> that's incorrect.
:Unfortunately, you were incorrect.
I should add, before the babies were born, the hospital gave a parenting class.
In the class, the instructor emphasized breastfeeding to the point where it
seemed that BF was a foregone conclusion.
Seth Jackson
:So you obviously don't believe in the adage that if mommy is happy......baby is
:happy? BTW, not everyone can just chuck work for the sake of baby. For some of
:us out here, it's the work that enabled us to be able to afford to have baby to
:begin with. I know that when we started our family.....dh was still finishing
:college and I WAS the main breadwinner......working full time until about 5
:years ago just to make ends meet. What should I have done?
We have twins, and are feeding them a combination of breast milk and formula.
My wife went back to work at 3 months. She pumps in the morning before leaving
for work, and she pumps during lunch break. If she gets a chance, she pumps one
additional time during the day.
This leaves 2 or 3 bottles of breast milk, each containing 4-6 oz. One baby
gets breast milk in the morning, the other gets formula. If there's not enough
breast milk to satisfy the baby, the difference is made up with formula.
Both babies get formula during the afternoon. If my wife gets home in time for
the next feeding, one baby gets expressed milk, the other gets breast fed.
Otherwise, both get formula again. If this happens, there will be extra breast
milk for the following day.
For the last feeding at night, one baby gets breast fed and the other gets
formula or expressed milk, if there's any still left.
So far, it's working pretty well. Incidentally, my wife uses a manual pump. It
turns out that she can pump a lot faster by hand than she would be able to with
even a double electric pump! It takes her about 5 minutes to express 4 oz.
Georgia Pritchett
Mette Sabram wrote in message ...
>But if you have a right to bottle feed, why do you accept the guilt and
feel
>guilty when breastfeeding women are talking about right choices?
>
>You know what is right. Even formula makers say that breast is best
(because
>they have to). So you KNOW. But you made a choice because you have a
"right"
>to bottlefeed.
>So you feeling guilty is no ones fault but your own. If you don't want to
>feel guilty, then make the right choices.
>
>And quite frankly..."what is right for ME and my baby is right" doesn't
hold
>true.
>
>If I started feeding my baby cereal at week 1 because I had a "right" to
and
>because I thought it was right for me and my baby" that still would't be
the
>best choice.
>Because it has been scientificially proven otherwise. Now if I did it
anyway
>I would have to accept to guilt concept of not doing the best thing for my
>child.
This is EXACTLY what I was told over and over again by many breastfeeding
woman and exactly what those of us who could not or choose not to
breastfeeding are talking about. I couldn't breastfeed and my choice to
stop rather than spend any more time getting uncontrolled migraines
was automatically:
1. Wrong because breastfeeding never causes migraines.
2. Wrong because I just needed to wait it out (for how long, exactly).
3. Wrong because I obviously was getting migraines because I
secretly didn't want to breastfeed.
But no one was trying to make me feel guilty. I did that to myself.
Well, you are right. I no longer feel guilty. I just feel disgusted with
sanctimonious people like you. And I feel saddened by the number
of times people say "I'm not trying to make you feel bad but what
you are doing is so obviously bad that you deserve the guilt you
are giving yourself" (but mean no offense by it)
Georgia
Lynne Murnane
> because I'm
> doing something that I made a choice to do and others comment on.
> But
> commenting on it........such as your example of tv..........is
> completely
I *do* understand your point, and fully realize that people don't get
so worked up over tv, but I have indeed gotten comments like you
describe. I have had people assure me that they don't know what they'd
do without it, ask me what on earth we do, wonder if my children are
all right, start telling me about shows I really must watch, and so on.
And I realize that there so few non-television viewers that we are just
a weird category unto ourselves, lol.
Interestingly enough, many people tend to get kind of defensive when I
tell them that we don't have tv; they nearly always start out with,
"well, we hardly watch it at all," and comments like that. (In fact, I
often don't reveal this because the reactions are so similar.) I've
always wondered why-- I'm not rebuking them or criticizing them, but
for some reason it definitely makes them uncomfortable. I don't let it
bother me. If my children have missed something wonderful by growing up
without tv, I'm perfectly willing to take the heat for it. So they
can't answer questions about tv shows on Jeopardy.....
Lynne
Marie
Tampamom wrote in message
<86aksf$bn$1...@news.laserlink.net>...
>
>Marie wrote in message ...
>>Most women I know also wanted their babies as soon as
>>they were born. I didn't care about mine being clean.
I
>>wanted to hold her lovingly and look into her eyes
and
>>talk to her before anyone else took her away.
>>Marie
>>http://go.to/mommydowis
>
>
>I did, but couldn't do it. Because of the C section,
I had one arm
>strapped down with the IV and the other arm strapped
down with the blood
>pressure monitor. They put the kids on me, but my DH
had to hold them in
>place...what a nightmare.
That would be a nightmare. I've always been scared that
something would happen during labor and I wouldn't be
able to hold my babies.
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
Josephea L. Payne
<des...@sabram.com> writes:
>
>But if you have a right to bottle feed, why do you accept the guilt and feel
>guilty when breastfeeding women are talking about right choices?
I'm really getting so sick of saying this. I do NOT feel guilty for my choice
in bottle-feeding. I merely get very upset and downright pissed at the attempt
to make me feel so.
>
>You know what is right. Even formula makers say that breast is best (because
>they have to). So you KNOW. But you made a choice because you have a "right"
>to bottlefeed.
>So you feeling guilty is no ones fault but your own. If you don't want to
>feel guilty, then make the right choices.
THIS is exactly what I mean. "You know what is right."......"So you
KNOW."......."If you don't want to feel guilty, then make the `right` choices."
Do you actually expect people to believe that these remarks are not intended as
an attempt to make us feel guilty? Even if they are not intended as
such.......are you actually so far gone intellectually that you cannot see how
they would make bottle-feeding mothers feel?
>
>And quite frankly..."what is right for ME and my baby is right" doesn't hold
>true.
Bullshit.
>
>If I started feeding my baby cereal at week 1 because I had a "right" to and
>because I thought it was right for me and my baby" that still would't be the
>best choice.
>Because it has been scientificially proven otherwise. Now if I did it anyway
>I would have to accept to guilt concept of not doing the best thing for my
>child.
Bullshit again. What I or any mom choose to do when it comes to feeding or
clothing our babies IS what's right for us and our baby. Now......if you were
talking about beating your child to death, I could understand. But feeding and
clothing and things like that are and should remain personal choices and
everyone else should just stay out of it. Science means nothing to the mother
who needs to work.......Science means nothing to the mother who is so unhappy
breast-feeding that her baby senses it daily........Science means nothing to
the mother who for medical or physical reasons simply cannot
breast-feed........Science means nothing to the mother who for personal reasons
of her own does not want to breast-feed.........I might also add that science
means nothing to the mother who is so desperate for sleep that she believes
that her baby just might sleep better at night if fed alittle cereal at 1 or 2
weeks of age........or who is just so curious as to try foods at this age to
see baby's reaction and finds that baby likes it. I think that BF'ers would do
everyone a favor if they just accepted the fact that we are ALL mothers trying
our best........that we ALL love our children.......that we ALL deserve the
right to make these choices without being made to feel bad for making them. I'm
through repling to this thread.......as it's getting ridiculous. You BF'ers
really ought to lighten up some though and TRY to walk through life with just
alittle bit less of a superior attitude on your shoulders. As far as I'm
concerned.......you guys can take your guilt trips and shove them up somebody
else's ass for awhile.
Josie
m...@worldfoundry.org
thought you meant to use the pump on you.
BG :-D
BCham...@Erols.com wrote in message <388924bf...@news.erols.com>...
>snip<
I don't want to miss out on the experience either so
>we'll buy a pump.
> snip>
J.B.Chamberlin
>ICQ# 1269371
>
Mette Sabram
breastfeed (migraines, bleeding nipples that will not heal, no supply).
I am talking about the women who choose not to because it is their right.
I feel it is a woman's right to choose for is best for the child.
Now, I don't think bottle feeders are bad moms (I never saw a nipple in my
life and my mom has been the best!!!! mom)
But when I hear stuff like "you make me feel guilty" I say "No, you make
yourself feel guilty because you made an informed choice to feed your baby
the second best, which is not neccesarily BAAAD, but not the best".
Georgia Pritchett wrote in message <3888e...@ci.salinas.ca.us>...
>
>Mette Sabram wrote in message ...
>>But if you have a right to bottle feed, why do you accept the guilt and
>feel
>>guilty when breastfeeding women are talking about right choices?
>>
>>You know what is right. Even formula makers say that breast is best
>(because
>>they have to). So you KNOW. But you made a choice because you have a
>"right"
>>to bottlefeed.
>>So you feeling guilty is no ones fault but your own. If you don't want to
>>feel guilty, then make the right choices.
>>
>>And quite frankly..."what is right for ME and my baby is right" doesn't
>hold
>>true.
>>
>>If I started feeding my baby cereal at week 1 because I had a "right" to
>and
>>because I thought it was right for me and my baby" that still would't be
>the
>>best choice.
>>Because it has been scientificially proven otherwise. Now if I did it
>anyway
>>I would have to accept to guilt concept of not doing the best thing for my
>>child.
>
>
Mette Sabram
If that makes you feel guilty, or if you think I am trying to make you feel
guilty because of that, well, that is something you have to work out for
yourself.
The truth is that I see no reason to encourage what I truly believe is such
a shame (formula feeding with no consideration to breastfeeding).
If you feel guilty, well...too bad.
But you made a choice and you should be proud of it then.
Josephea L. Payne wrote in message
<20000121184646...@nso-bh.aol.com>...
>In article <s8hn8id...@corp.supernews.com>, "Mette Sabram"
><des...@sabram.com> writes:
>
>>
>>But if you have a right to bottle feed, why do you accept the guilt and
feel
>>guilty when breastfeeding women are talking about right choices?
>
>I'm really getting so sick of saying this. I do NOT feel guilty for my
choice
>in bottle-feeding. I merely get very upset and downright pissed at the
attempt
>to make me feel so.
>
>
>>
>>You know what is right. Even formula makers say that breast is best
(because
>>they have to). So you KNOW. But you made a choice because you have a
"right"
>>to bottlefeed.
>>So you feeling guilty is no ones fault but your own. If you don't want to
>>feel guilty, then make the right choices.
>
>THIS is exactly what I mean. "You know what is right."......"So you
>KNOW."......."If you don't want to feel guilty, then make the `right`
choices."
>Do you actually expect people to believe that these remarks are not
intended as
>an attempt to make us feel guilty? Even if they are not intended as
>such.......are you actually so far gone intellectually that you cannot see
how
>they would make bottle-feeding mothers feel?
>
>>
>>And quite frankly..."what is right for ME and my baby is right" doesn't
hold
>>true.
>
>Bullshit.
>
>>
>>If I started feeding my baby cereal at week 1 because I had a "right" to
and
>>because I thought it was right for me and my baby" that still would't be
the
>>best choice.
>>Because it has been scientificially proven otherwise. Now if I did it
anyway
>>I would have to accept to guilt concept of not doing the best thing for my
>>child.
>
Mette Sabram
Cathlynnnn wrote in message
<20000121194737...@ng-co1.aol.com>...
>I made the *right* choice to NOT bf and never once looked back. The whole
thing
>never appealed to me. I think it is great for others, but not me.
But it may have been right for your baby. It was after all what your breast
were made for.
Mette Sabram
Mette Sabram
My daughter came home, but was re-admitted on her third day of life for
jaundice and that stupid ped put a HUGE IV into my tiny daughters arm and
told me no bf for 2 days!!!!!!
That was the day my milk came in, so I had to pump and pump, while my
daughter was laying all alone with catheter and IV...
MariMc25 wrote in message <20000121172347...@ng-cg1.aol.com>...
Cathlynnnn
>
>But if you have a right to bottle feed, why do you accept the guilt and feel
>guilty when breastfeeding women are talking about right choices?
Been silent on this too long.....this will be my debut....
It isn't that we *feel* guilty...never have I once felt guilty...it is that
they assume that we should.
>
>You know what is right. Even formula makers say that breast is best (because
>they have to). So you KNOW. But you made a choice because you have a "right"
>to bottlefeed.
>So you feeling guilty is no ones fault but your own. If you don't want to
>feel guilty, then make the right choices.
Right choices? That is pretty rich. What is right for one may not necessarily
be right for all...in every circumstance.
I made the *right* choice to NOT bf and never once looked back. The whole thing
never appealed to me. I think it is great for others, but not me.
>
>And quite frankly..."what is right for ME and my baby is right" doesn't hold
>true.
Sure it does...ever heard of some babies re-acting to some meds and not others,
ever heard of some babies sleeping through the night from what one mom does and
not others, ever heard of mothers that are sick and can not breastfeed, ever
hear of mastitis, ever hear of the psychological walls that some have with it?
These are all good reasons in and of themselves to NOT bf.
>
>If I started feeding my baby cereal at week 1 because I had a "right" to and
>because I thought it was right for me and my baby" that still would't be the
>best choice.
Guess what..did this at 2 weeks. Mine were eating like hogs...and my doctor
told me that if I was bfing, I would never be sleeping.
>Because it has been scientificially proven otherwise. Now if I did it anyway
>I would have to accept to guilt concept of not doing the best thing for my
>child.
>
Don't feel a bit guilty....and (knock on wood) have two very healthy children!
I have always felt I was doing what was best for *MY* child. If my doctor told
me to jump off a bridge with them because a study said that they could float
and gain great knowledge from it, I would still go with *my* instincts for *my*
child.
___________________________________________________________________
Cathy
Mom to Taylor 6, & Tiffany 4.
"To handle yourself, use your head...To handle others, use your heart!"
http://hometown.aol.com/cathlynnnn/myhomepage/index.html
Michelle Haines
<geo...@ci.salinas.ca.us> wrote:
>I am a firm believer in breastfeeding. I encourage everyone I know to
>try it. I have to wonder about the comments about doctors and hospitals
>not doing enough because both Ohio State University Hospital in Columbus, OH
>and Salinas Valley Memorial in Salinas, CA had classes available and
>lactation consultants there.
A recent survey/study (it's referenced in a Salon article about
breastfeeding, which I can go and dig up if you like) found that 45%
of doctors see no difference between breastfeeding and formula. Our
daughter's first doctor (not to mention my husband's family) really
pressured me to wean her at six months, which I did end up doing. I
don't really feel guilty about it because I was making the choice with
the information I had at the time, and with the overwhelmed feelings I
was having at the time, but I wouldn't make that choice again.
When my son was sick I had CONSTANT battles with his ICU doctors about
breastfeeding. First they wanted me to stop because my milk was too
salty (it wasn't, the lab had the wrong setting for the first test),
then he didn't want me to breastfeed because of the medication I take,
even though the neurologist said it wasn't a concern. When I talked
to the lactation consultant at that hospital, she said they had
repeated problems with this doctor and breastfeeding and when his wife
had a baby he was getting formula for her before she had even left the
hospital because she was having a hard time nursing. The two other
female doctors in that practice weren't any better. It got to the
point that I told them I didn't want to talk to them about it any
more, I wanted to talk to a doctor outside the practice that was
female and had nursed her children. He couldn't find one, so sent in
a nurse instead.
Of course, I couldn't actually nurse my son for a long time, because
he wasn't strong enough. He had to be bottle and tube fed, with some
ineffective nursing occasionally. Unfortunately, by the last week of
his life I had to switch entirely to formula and banked milk because
both my nipples were severely cracked from the pump. Of course, by
then, it really didn't matter.
So, you can definitely run into doctors who aren't breastfeeding
supportive. Actually, the pediatric neurologist said that the ICU
doctors were falling back on that old standby that if they couldn't
diagnose the exact problem, blame the mother and tell her to stop
breastfeeding. Funny guy, Dr. Miller.
Michelle
Flutist
Kendra
>I am pregnant now, and I'm much wiser about bfing. My unborn child has a
>50/50
>chance of being jaundiced again because of a hereditary blood disorder, but
>this time I will make sure that they allow me to bf the baby even if it is
>jaundiced.
Take a pump with you just in case. I bought the Avent pump after trying
several. It's small, quiet, and easy although it's manual. Let them know in
advance that you expect to breastfeed and absolutely do not want your baby
given a bottle without your consent. Then if there's a period of time that you
can't nurse, you can pump and at least give your child breastmilk.
Something else I liked about Avent are that the bottles don't cause nipple
confusion like other bottles do. When I was going to the LC at our hospital
after my son (4 years ago) they said "no bottles". With my daughter we had the
same problem (very low supply) and the same office said the Avent bottles are
as close to "breast like" as a bottle can be.
I hope it works out better this time. :-)
Kendra
~*~
Y2 KINGS!
Bench Mob Rules.
Kendra
>But if you have a right to bottle feed, why do you accept the guilt and feel
>guilty when breastfeeding women are talking about right choices?
Well, for one thing, quite a few don't consider all the facts or bother to
listen to those of us who did try and couldn't bf. I've read posts, and I'm
going back over the last 2 + years, where bottle feeders were lumped together
(ie, those who chose and those who HAD to) and preached to.
I've posted my problems with breastfeeding several times and *I've* been told
that I didn't try hard enough, that I wasn't given correct information, etc.
They know nothing about what I did to try to bf. So I, personally, get angry
when I feel like I'm being lumped into a category that I don't fit into.
>So you feeling guilty is no ones fault but your own. If you don't want to
>feel guilty, then make the right choices.
>
It sure would be nice if more people recognized the fact that bf was not
physically possible for some of us.
My son was only bf for 2 weeks. I had next to nothing. I pumped and pumped
and nursed and nursed and still nothing. We saw the LC several times a week
and I went through hell. I've been told that I should have stuck it out
longer. I've been told, after discussing (here on usenet) my problem in detail,
that I did have enough and just didn't try hard enough. I've been told that
it's so rare that there's no way I could have had a low supply. Emotionally
I was a wreck at the thought that my son could starve if I didn't supplement.
I had my own guilt and didn't need any extra from a newsgroup.
>And quite frankly..."what is right for ME and my baby is right" doesn't hold
>true.
Actually it does. What was right for my baby was to switch to bottle.
Marie
>
>>
>>But if you have a right to bottle feed, why do you
accept the guilt and feel
>>guilty when breastfeeding women are talking about
right choices?
>
debut....
>It isn't that we *feel* guilty...never have I once
felt guilty...it is that
>they assume that we should.
>
>>
>>You know what is right. Even formula makers say that
breast is best (because
>>they have to). So you KNOW. But you made a choice
>>to bottlefeed.
>>So you feeling guilty is no ones fault but your own.
If you don't want to
>>feel guilty, then make the right choices.
>
one may not necessarily
>be right for all...in every circumstance.
>I made the *right* choice to NOT bf and never once
looked back. The whole thing
>never appealed to me. I think it is great for others,
but not me.
>
>>
is right" doesn't hold
>>true.
>
some meds and not others,
>ever heard of some babies sleeping through the night
from what one mom does and
>not others, ever heard of mothers that are sick and
can not breastfeed, ever
>hear of mastitis,
Just wondering why you think mastitis is a reason to
not breastfeed?
Marie
Cathlynnnn
>From: "Marie"
>
>Just wondering why you think mastitis is a reason to
>not breastfeed?
If the *mom* is in pain from mastitis, you think she should still breastfeed
the child? Sure, you can still nurse with mastitis; the child supposedly will
not incur the infection since they are likely the originator. But this is most
painful in lots of cases and would not be a bonding, enjoyable experience for
mother (from pain) and baby (from obvious tension).
___________________________________________________________________
Marie
it in both breasts at the same time. It is extremely
painful (like having the flu, plus breast pain also)
but once I got antibiotics for it I was fine. I don't
see it as a reason not to BF because it's not
permanent.
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
Cathlynnnn wrote in message
<20000121210750...@ng-cl1.aol.com>...
Cathlynnnn
>
>If you get it treated, it doesn't last long. I've had
>it in both breasts at the same time. It is extremely
>painful (like having the flu, plus breast pain also)
>but once I got antibiotics for it I was fine. I don't
>see it as a reason not to BF because it's not permanent.
I commend you for that Marie...but not everyone shares your point of view. My
best friend wanted nothing more than to bf, but it was just too painful for her
even during the antibiotics.
I think that if bf'ing was your choice and worked wonderfully, then that is
great. I, however, would never condemn a new mother for not.
Not directed towards you specifically, but anyone who would *try* to make a new
mom feel guilty for doing what she thinks is best when they are going thru the
most exciting and confusing process of their life is thoughtless.
___________________________________________________________________
Grub~67
were at very good hospitals in Ottawa. I had everybody & their sister asking
me b4 hand if I was going to bf. I didn't understand why it was their
concern. However come delivery day {both times at different H's} I had
nothing but excellent, supportive & knowledgeable staff that encouraged bf.
I had a very painful & frustrating go of it w/ my first, the H sent a
lactation expert to my home where she came as often as I needed her &
diligently stayed by my side til I was in the swing of things. All in all
they were both great experiences.
I was also impressed with the # of places I could go that accomodated bf
mothers. I didn't have any bad experiences with people or places. I have
also moved 3 times having different fam docs & clinics, all were pro bf,
very supportive.
Until I discovered *computer world* & ng's I had no idea there was a big
controversy over bf & ff. I assumed everyone bf b/c that's mostly I have
witnessed. All my friends did it. Our baby well clinics were packed w/ bf
mothers. So I am niave but my point is the education & support is out there
if needed, as I stated in another ng 'We do the best we can with what we
know, everyone has the best interest of their child at heart'. Well I do &
I'm grateful that I live in a country that supports my choices as a mom &
allows me 9 months maternity leave to be a home w/ my babies so I can bf.
Some parents don't have those choices. JMHO,
Ginny~ proud mommy of Daniel James Ryan & Sarah Jessica born 04/16/96 &
04/25/98
"Some people think that we put our life on hold to raise a child but we know
that to hold a child is life."
"D.Chenier" <danielle...@pwgsc.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:01bf6434$3da713e0$5dd8e28e@DanielleChenier...
> Tampamom <ben...@gateway.net> wrote in article
> <8686kh$3t8$1...@news.laserlink.net>...
> > Josie,
> >
> > Most of us have said that our doctors DID promote breastfeeding. She
> just
> > doesn't want to hear it because it doesn't fit with her agenda.
>
> O please, I don't have an agenda, just a question I'd like to be
> answered!!! My experience with doctors is not only consitent with others'
> experience in my own area, it is consistent with what others post on
> breastfeeding support groups. And these posts are from around the world.
> Yes, some states seem to have more BF conscious doctors and hospitals,
most
> don't. And Canada certainly doesn't.
>
>
> --
> Danielle,
> Maman to Marc-Andre - May 22, 1991 and Genevieve - Dec. 18, 1995 and
> recently weaned
> Writing from Canada
> Visit my new web-page, view new pics of the kids, and, please, sign my
> guest-book!! http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/home.html
> My ICQ # is 6463692
> Canadian Special Education Chat Room -
> http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/canspec.html
> &canspec ICQ # 33710657
Grub~67
friends whether they were bf or bf??
Will it be a prerequisite to attend a club?
When they attend church will they be asked?
When they are sick with the flu at 13 will the doctor ask them?
Will their first boyfriend or girlfriend ask them b4 they receive their
first kiss?
Will it be on their resume?
Ginny~ proud mommy of Daniel James Ryan & Sarah Jessica born 04/16/96 &
04/25/98~ Who (for the record) does not group mothers as bf or ff.
Michelle Haines
>When our kids attend University do you think they will be asked by their
>friends whether they were bf or bf??
>Will it be a prerequisite to attend a club?
>When they attend church will they be asked?
>When they are sick with the flu at 13 will the doctor ask them?
>Will their first boyfriend or girlfriend ask them b4 they receive their
>first kiss?
>Will it be on their resume?
Could you possibly make a more irrelevant argument?
Michelle
Flutist
BCham...@erols.com
I couldn't tell if she was for or against it. My wife has been
thinking about this issue as our first child should be here around
July. We've both been reading up on the subject and while it seems
that breast feeding could have only possitve effects on the baby, you
should only do it if you are comfortable doing so. I told her she
should at least try it. If it doesn't work then it doesn't work. At
least we'll try. I don't want to miss out on the experience either so
we'll buy a pump. I told her at any time if it becomes too much of a
problem or if she just can't do it (as some women can't) then we
won't. I don't want her feeling that it's her total responsibility to
get up all night. I'll do what I can.
J.B.Chamberlin
ICQ# 1269371
Josephea L. Payne
(Michelle Haines) writes:
>On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:29:00 GMT, "Grub~67" <gen...@home.com> wrote:
>
>>When our kids attend University do you think they will be asked by their
>>friends whether they were bf or bf??
>>Will it be a prerequisite to attend a club?
>>When they attend church will they be asked?
>>When they are sick with the flu at 13 will the doctor ask them?
>>Will their first boyfriend or girlfriend ask them b4 they receive their
>>first kiss?
>>Will it be on their resume?
>
>Could you possibly make a more irrelevant argument?
>
If she felt like saying it, she ought to be able to, no? Besides.....I'd hardly
call it irrevelant. All she was trying to get across was that in the grand
scheme of life, after all is said and done......so long as our children are
raised with love......it's not gonna amount to a hill of beans whether or not
we breastfed or bottlefed. And she's right.
Josie
Cathlynnnn
>(Michelle Haines) writes:
>
>>On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:29:00 GMT, "Grub~67" <gen...@home.com> wrote:
>>
>>>When our kids attend University do you think they will be asked by their
>>>friends whether they were bf or bf??
>>>Will it be a prerequisite to attend a club?
>>>When they attend church will they be asked?
>>>When they are sick with the flu at 13 will the doctor ask them?
>>>Will their first boyfriend or girlfriend ask them b4 they receive their
>>>first kiss?
>>>Will it be on their resume?
>>
>>Could you possibly make a more irrelevant argument?
I actually thought it was the first one to make sense so far.
Lots0kids3
<snip>
>I did, but couldn't do it. Because of the C section, I had one arm
>strapped down with the IV and the other arm strapped down with the blood
>pressure monitor. They put the kids on me, but my DH had to hold them in
>place...what a nightmare.
>
>
Although I love my girls passionately, after having my c-sections, I didn't
want to hold them immediately. I was afraid I would drop them since I was
still under the effects of the epidural. I waited until I was out of recovery
before I attempted to hold them by myself. So trying to bf on the "delivery"
table was totally out of the question!
JMO,
Ruthie, mom of 3
Lots0kids3
first instinct was to wean the baby. I was in serious pain; she had bitten me
*hard* and the last thing I wanted was her little jaws on my tender breast
again. It was only with the help and encouragement of my sister that I let her
nurse again. It did help cure the mastitis (with antibiotics), but I can
certainly understand why someone would consider it a reason to abandon bfing.
JMO,
Ruthie, mom of 3
"Marie" wrote:
>If you get it treated, it doesn't last long. I've had
>it in both breasts at the same time. It is extremely
>painful (like having the flu, plus breast pain also)
>but once I got antibiotics for it I was fine. I don't
>see it as a reason not to BF because it's not
>permanent.
>Marie
>http://go.to/mommydowis
>
Barchet
<gen...@home.com> writes:
>When our kids attend University do you think they will be asked by their
>friends whether they were bf or bf??
>Will it be a prerequisite to attend a club?
>When they attend church will they be asked?
>When they are sick with the flu at 13 will the doctor ask them?
>Will their first boyfriend or girlfriend ask them b4 they receive their
>first kiss?
>Will it be on their resume?
>
>Ginny~
From what I have read, when a child enter elementary school in Japan, the form
asks if they were bf'd and for how long. (However, Japanese doctors schedule
their deliveries so the birth is convenient for them. Their argument is "You
don't want me (the doctor) to be too tired to give you good care, do you?" So
most labor is induced.)
Denise
...who is a wicked "Jeopardy" player...
To e-mail me directly, remember an object at rest tends to stay at rest...
Barchet
>I don't want her feeling that it's her total responsibility to
>get up all night. I'll do what I can.
>J.B.Chamberlin
I brought the infant to bed with me and learned to doze while nursing. DH
learned to sleep with a small body in the bed (he now encourages the cat to
share our bed). DH was really good about getting up and changing the infant in
the middle of the night if s/he needed it. He did a lot of little things--and
a lot of cooking--which made my life as a nursing mom ~much~ easier!
Denise
...now he handles discipline of children who are over 5' 5" tall <G>...
Barchet
(Cathlynnnn) writes:
>>From: "Marie"
>
>>
>>Just wondering why you think mastitis is a reason to
>>not breastfeed?
>
>If the *mom* is in pain from mastitis, you think she should still breastfeed
>the child? Sure, you can still nurse with mastitis; the child supposedly will
>not incur the infection since they are likely the originator. But this is
>most
>painful in lots of cases and would not be a bonding, enjoyable experience for
>mother (from pain) and baby (from obvious tension).
>___________________________________________________________________
>Cathy
Been there, done that, kept on nursing b/c it was less painful to nurse than to
let the milk build up and the infection rage. Fortunately, my worst case of
mastitis (actually got antibiotics from my OB) was with child #2. I was quite
comfortable with nursing. I also had the support of a friend of mine who
happens to be a LC. And child #2 threw up anything other than breast milk, so
I had extra motivation to continue nursing. (I mean, I could have searched for
an expensive formula that she could tolerate, but why? My body was making the
perfect food for free.) Subsequently, I learned to tell when a duct was
getting plugged and how to relieve it.
My friend the LC and I discussed why mastitis seems to happen with later
babies, and we speculated that maybe we just didn't sit and let the baby nurse
long enough to completely empty the milk ducts.
Denise
...these boobs are made for milking, that's what they're going to do. One of
these days these boobs are going to milk all over you... (Well, maybe not any
more. <G>)
Barchet
dieuvo...@aol.com (Josephea L. Payne) writes:
>You BF'ers
>really ought to lighten up some though and TRY to walk through life with just
>alittle bit less of a superior attitude on your shoulders. As far as I'm
>concerned.......you guys can take your guilt trips and shove them up somebody
>else's ass for awhile.
>
>Josie
>
Aw, c'mon, Josie, tell us how you ~really~ feel! <G>
Denise
...one of those GD supercilious BF'ers who is passing out guilt trips like they
were free... <G>
Marie
baby because of mastitis.
And the biting!? I know that can be hard with some
babies. My daughter bit me when her 3rd and 4th teeth
were coming in. It lasted for 2 days at each feeding
then it stopped.
What about when they get to looking around but forget
to let go of your nipple? lol
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
Lots0kids3 wrote in message
<20000122015957...@ng-cm1.aol.com>...
Marie
only had 2 kids and both times I was scared(nervous)
something would happen that I'd need a C-section or
medication. I hear scary stories about epidurals. Are
they true (about paralysis) or just myths?
I've been lucky so far.
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
Lots0kids3 wrote in message
<20000122015325...@ng-cm1.aol.com>...
Lesa
place if not begun immediatly after birth. Human babies are not birds or
other lower order animals and do not imprint on the first image they see.
Human bonding takes place over several days, even weeks. Three is
absolutley no reason to insist that a sore, tied mother have a just newborn
baby placed on her abdomen, even before the cord has been cut or the child
has been washed and examined--it will not inpeed the bonding process one
bit. Nor is there any reason to demand that a mother nurse immediately
after birth.Milk let down occurs much better when the mother is in a
relaxed, comfortable position. I do not feel that the devliery table
immediatly after birth is either relaxing or comfortable--and it is not
necessary for bonding. Since the baby has no need for nourishment
immediatly after birth, nursing can most certainly wait a few minutes.
D.Chenier <danielle...@pwgsc.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:01bf642c$b810a360$5dd8e28e@DanielleChenier...
> > The hospital where my 2nd was born had an LC right there in the delivery
> > room, insisting that you must BF immediatly after birth since it will
> help
> > reduce your utures faster. I told her to buzz off--I have an
> "ineffective
> > uturine contractions" and labor had gone on for 6 days--I new she
didn't
> > need food at that time and had no energy or desire to BF at that time.
I
> > got a lecture.
> >
>
> Actually, the LC was right: the sooner after birth the baby nurses, the
> most likely you are to succeed at breastfeeding. Immediately after birth,
> baby and mom are both especially allert to each other, much so than later
> on in the first few days of life.
>
> > I also got a lecture about bonding when I told them I wanted her cleaned
> up
> > before I saw her and demanded that she be removed from my abdomen
> > immediately after birth.
>
> That's strange. Most moms insist on bonding immediately after baby is
born,
> and the nursing staff are the ones wanting to clean up the baby.
Cathlynnnn
>
>Cathlynnnn wrote in message
><20000121194737...@ng-co1.aol.com>...
>>I made the *right* choice to NOT bf and never once looked back. The whole
>thing
>>never appealed to me. I think it is great for others, but not me.
>
>But it may have been right for your baby. It was after all what your breast
>were made for.
>
"May have been" is the key phrase there. It "may have been" right for my baby
had I not had her natural......but I did while every other mother had spinals
and demerol.....another natural method, it "may have been" better for my second
baby had I not been induced, but at 3 weeks late and sicker than a dog and a
baby a little bigger than a watermelon, my doctor felt for both of our safety,
the unnatural way was best. The "may have been better's" could last forever. It
all boils down to personal choice, and I *know* I made the *right* one for me.
I'll go as far as to say in some situations, it "may have been better" for the
baby had certain parents never conceived at all unfortunately. I think that
natural is almost always the best way....but sometimes it is not the only way.
Besides your feet were made for walking and I am all but sure you have been in
a car before, no?
Marie
Marie
http://go.to/mommydowis
Barchet wrote in message
<20000122020930...@nso-fi.aol.com>...
>Denise
>...these boobs are made for milking, that's what
they're going to do. One of
>these days these boobs are going to milk all over
you... (Well, maybe not any
>more. <G>)
>
>
Josephea L. Payne
<lsch...@nospam.nycap.rr.com> writes:
>absolutley no reason to insist that a sore, tied mother have a just newborn
>baby placed on her abdomen,
Damn doctors nowdays. Somebody really ought to do something about this business
of tying up all these sore mothers.
Josie
mai...@webtv.net
<<Once again......the ever so subtle implication that if only our
priorities were `right` and if only we knew what was `really`
important........we´d surely just stay home and breastfeed.>>
You thought it was implied, that's not what I meant. I meant that it is
a matter of what's important to you as far as what's right for your
family.
Many people who say they could never stay home with their children
because they need their income aren't exactly being honest. They "could"
do it but they choose not to so as not to give up what is important to
them. Bigger house, newer cars, etc.
Many people who say that yes indeed do mean they "need" the extra money.
I don't believe that every woman should stay home with their children or
that every woman should breastfeed. But I do believe it should at least
be given some thought and possibly tried. I do think this society now
encourages women to get right back out there as soon as possible and
think nothing of even considering BF and being a SAHM.
Breasfeeding is not going to make every woman happy. I do think one
should try for the sake of the baby though.
Being a SAHM is not for every woman. Homeschooling is not for every
family. I do feel passionately about these topics but certanily don't
want anyone to think I'm trying to make someone feel guilty because they
don't do them. Same goes with vaccinations and all kinds of decisions we
make for our children in the name of "what we feel is best."
Mainmom to
Tara (14) Joseph (5) Sierra (4)
Lesa
Josephea L. Payne <dieuvo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000122124605...@nso-fp.aol.com...
All right....that should have been "tired"--which seems to be my chronic
state lately. thanks for the laugh Josie.
Grub~67
extremely articulate. "This whole bf issue" could handle it's own ng.
That's my opinion. As for the one who couldn't tell what I support, I
support good parents making the best choices for their children. Who am I to
judge.
Outa here,
Ginny~ proud mommy of Daniel James Ryan & Sarah Jessica born 04/16/96 &
04/25/98
that to hold a child is life."
"Josephea L. Payne" <dieuvo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000122000440...@nso-bk.aol.com...
> In article <38892514....@news.uswest.net>, mha...@oshconsulting.com
> (Michelle Haines) writes:
>
> >On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:29:00 GMT, "Grub~67" <gen...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >>When our kids attend University do you think they will be asked by their
> >>friends whether they were bf or bf??
> >>Will it be a prerequisite to attend a club?
> >>When they attend church will they be asked?
> >>When they are sick with the flu at 13 will the doctor ask them?
> >>Will their first boyfriend or girlfriend ask them b4 they receive their
> >>first kiss?
> >>Will it be on their resume?
> >
> >Could you possibly make a more irrelevant argument?
> >
>
EmmaAnne
> In article <DAji4.7733$U5.3...@typhoon.nyroc.rr.com>, "Lesa"
> <lsch...@nospam.nycap.rr.com> writes:
>
> >absolutley no reason to insist that a sore, tied mother have a just
> >newborn baby placed on her abdomen,
>
> Damn doctors nowdays. Somebody really ought to do something about this
> business of tying up all these sore mothers.
>
> Josie
My mom really was tied down (her wrists were strapped) during birth.
Yikes!!
--
"Watch me. I have many skills"
Xena: Warrior Princess
Steve
>
> On Sat, 22 Jan 2000 03:33:57 GMT, mha...@oshconsulting.com (Michelle
> Haines) wrote:
>
>
> I couldn't tell if she was for or against it. My wife has been
> thinking about this issue as our first child should be here around
> July. We've both been reading up on the subject and while it seems
> that breast feeding could have only possitve effects on the baby, you
> should only do it if you are comfortable doing so. I told her she
> should at least try it. If it doesn't work then it doesn't work. At
> least we'll try. I don't want to miss out on the experience either so
> we'll buy a pump. I told her at any time if it becomes too much of a
> problem or if she just can't do it (as some women can't) then we
> get up all night. I'll do what I can.
> J.B.Chamberlin
---------------------------------------
Breastfeeding is better for the baby and for the mother. Reasons given
not to breastfeed come from prudery, embarrassment, or plain stupidity.
Yes, people are free to be stupid. But why? ALL women can breastfeed!
Reasons given like mastitis, inverted nipples, wakefulness, feeling
sexual pleasure etc. are crap born of other ulterior motives usually
revolving around some kind of sexual embarrassment by the mother or
pressure from the father to get rid of the kid so you can fuck.
We took him into bed with us and breast-fed and had sex at the same
time, and raised our infant in a crib in the same room where we had sex.
He just got an early education and he was better for it. If he cried he
came in bed with us, simple. He hardly ever cried. He knew he didn't
need to. He slept through the night after 6 months.
And for those who imagine such an easy time of it demotivates a child
listen:
--
He was a head taller than others in his class and we're both short!
He read his first book and did algebra at age 3 and 4 respectively, and
he was bumped to first grade after two days in kindergarten. They wanted
to bump him another and we said no.
He's now a 26 y/o retail sales manager in San Francisco making $45K.
He also owns half interest in a $150K audio remastering studio.
He also had NONE of the childhood ailments that my wife and I had as
kids back in the fifties because we were bottle-fed and had none of the
antibodies of human milk!
Most humans on earth breastfeed children till age two. Only the west is
weird about it at all! We breast-fed him till he was two, and I did all
the diapers and ran errands for her to compensate. Cloth diapers,
continually dumped, washed and dried by these hands so she needed only
eat for herself and feed him. She gained zero weight after breastfeeding
and never dieted!! Breastfeeding does the trick, girls!!
He learned to shit and wipe himself before he was fully weaned. He's now
huge and built like an olympic athlete and he's 26 years old and has
barely been ill at all! He looks like "Arnold" and does spin-kicks in
mid air and writes software as a hobby.
Looking back on our colic and tonsilitis and measles and bronchitis and
penumonia and croup and digestive ailments because we didn't get
breast-fed in either of our childhood families of 3 and 4 siblings
respectively, and him having none of those problems at ALL with our same
genetics, I'd recommend we make a law against bottles and formula!!
You're a criminal and/or a moron if you don't breast feed, because it's
terribly easy by comparison, and the mother is even more protected
against breast cancer in later life!!
Breastfeeeding is SO worth it both for the child and the mother and for
the help in health costs and total cost of raising a child that if it
doesn't work it pays hugely to goddamned fucking well MAKE it work!!
Check out La Leche League. They know it can work for everyone! Let her
stay home for the first couple years anyway. You'll never regret it and
she won't blame you. I guarantee it.
Steve
jennifer
materity hospital where I was told I wasn't even in labour. Then after telling
them I had to push, twelve hours later they finally decide I'm not going to have
this baby naturallly.
Then they assumed I'd be Bottlefeeding. My mother literally had to grab the
bottle out of there hands. Yep, I'm moving your way!
Jenn
Grub~67 wrote:
> I'll just jump in here if I may. Danielle I've given birth 2 times, both
> were at very good hospitals in Ottawa. I had everybody & their sister asking
> me b4 hand if I was going to bf. I didn't understand why it was their
> concern. However come delivery day {both times at different H's} I had
> nothing but excellent, supportive & knowledgeable staff that encouraged bf.
> I had a very painful & frustrating go of it w/ my first, the H sent a
> lactation expert to my home where she came as often as I needed her &
> diligently stayed by my side til I was in the swing of things. All in all
> they were both great experiences.
> I was also impressed with the # of places I could go that accomodated bf
> mothers. I didn't have any bad experiences with people or places. I have
> also moved 3 times having different fam docs & clinics, all were pro bf,
> very supportive.
> Until I discovered *computer world* & ng's I had no idea there was a big
> controversy over bf & ff. I assumed everyone bf b/c that's mostly I have
> witnessed. All my friends did it. Our baby well clinics were packed w/ bf
> mothers. So I am niave but my point is the education & support is out there
> if needed, as I stated in another ng 'We do the best we can with what we
> know, everyone has the best interest of their child at heart'. Well I do &
> I'm grateful that I live in a country that supports my choices as a mom &
> allows me 9 months maternity leave to be a home w/ my babies so I can bf.
> Some parents don't have those choices. JMHO,
> Ginny~ proud mommy of Daniel James Ryan & Sarah Jessica born 04/16/96 &
> 04/25/98
> "Some people think that we put our life on hold to raise a child but we know
> that to hold a child is life."
>
> "D.Chenier" <danielle...@pwgsc.gc.ca> wrote in message
> news:01bf6434$3da713e0$5dd8e28e@DanielleChenier...
> > Tampamom <ben...@gateway.net> wrote in article
> > <8686kh$3t8$1...@news.laserlink.net>...
> > > Josie,
> > >
> > > Most of us have said that our doctors DID promote breastfeeding. She
> > just
> > > doesn't want to hear it because it doesn't fit with her agenda.
> >
> > O please, I don't have an agenda, just a question I'd like to be
> > answered!!! My experience with doctors is not only consitent with others'
> > experience in my own area, it is consistent with what others post on
> > breastfeeding support groups. And these posts are from around the world.
> > Yes, some states seem to have more BF conscious doctors and hospitals,
> most
> > don't. And Canada certainly doesn't.
> >
> >
jennifer
though, from my mom.
Tampamom wrote:
> Marie wrote in message ...
> >Most women I know also wanted their babies as soon as
> >they were born. I didn't care about mine being clean. I
> >wanted to hold her lovingly and look into her eyes and
> >talk to her before anyone else took her away.
> >Marie
> >http://go.to/mommydowis
>
> I did, but couldn't do it. Because of the C section, I had one arm
> strapped down with the IV and the other arm strapped down with the blood
> pressure monitor. They put the kids on me, but my DH had to hold them in
> place...what a nightmare.
>
> Marion----Tampamom to Louis(6) and Erica (2)
>
> "Keep your chin up...it gives your body a better chance at fighting gravity"
Marie
Lots0kids3
I've had 3 c-sections. I've had 2 epidurals and 1 spinal. The spinal totally
numbed me from the chest down while the epidurals allowed some sensation (the
books say "tugging" and "pulling") but no pain. I actually preferred the
epidural because I didn't like the totally zoned-out feeling I had with the
spinal (Dr told me that it was the result of an anti-nausea drug they added to
the IV since I had thrown up before surgery). ANYWAY, I prefer epidurals since
I like to have some feeling and know what is going on.
But I had no horrible side effects from either and wouldn't hesitate to have
another c-section should the situation warrant it. But I would make sure that
I picked a good hospital and that the anethesiologist was well-trained.
I'm sure that there some theoretical risk to any kind of anesthesia, but there
are risks to everything we do including trying to deliver a big baby through a
very small pelvis. :)
JMO,
Ruthie, mom of 3