3yr olds embarassing comments, Help!
cr...@my-dejanews.com
Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never taught her
about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
"Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarassed when this happens. I dont know
what to do. I usually just pretend I didnt hear the comment and rush out of
where I am. Yesterday when my daughter said it in the post office I told her
that it wasnt nice to say, and we left. Once we are out of range I explain to
Katherine that it hurts peoples feelings when she says things like that, but
she doesnt understand why. Is there any way to get the point across to her in
a way that she will understand? Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word
"fat" which would be worse. Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr old who
is just learning things. Help! -Cindy (Mommy to Katherine 1-19-95)
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Mar...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6m0frc$nun$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never taught her
> about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
> "Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarassed when this happens. I dont know
> what to do. I usually just pretend I didnt hear the comment and rush out of
> where I am. Yesterday when my daughter said it in the post office I told her
> that it wasnt nice to say, and we left. Once we are out of range I explain to
> Katherine that it hurts peoples feelings when she says things like that, but
> she doesnt understand why. Is there any way to get the point across to her in
> a way that she will understand? Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word
> "fat" which would be worse. Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
> is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr old who
> is just learning things. Help! -Cindy (Mommy to Katherine 1-19-95)
>
I'm not sure there is much you can do - at the age of 3, she doesn't yet have
the advanced notion that there is something bad about being fat or thin or
old or having a big nose or strange clothes or an artificial leg or WHATEVER
- to her, she is interested in the differences between people and just proud
that she is able to recognize a physical characteristic and tell you about
it!!!
Even my 7 year old still does it occasionally ("Look Mom, that man has a
dirty face!" in a loud voice as we pass a derelict). We have talked a lot
about making personal comments about appearance, and trying to understand
things that older people find embarrassing - but I suspect tincture of time
is the real cure for this behaviour. It is a very subtle concept that
feelings can sometimes be hurt by statements of fact.
Mary G. Red faced mother of three (7, 4 and 5 1/2 months) Whose 4 1/2 year
old asked me in a loud voice as we passed a senior "Is that an old, old lady,
Mom? Is she going to DIE soon??"
Jenn
At that age, my son saw a very big person walking our direction in a store. He
screamed and ran behind me saying, "I thought that fat guy was going to step on
me and squash me!" You can imagine my embarassment. I've never found anything
better than what you're doing. It takes a while. Just keep in mind that she's
not doing it maliciously; it's just observation...
However, any more ideas would be great. Does electric shock therapy work? :)
(I'm JOKING, BTW)...
-Jenn
cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never taught her
> about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
> "Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarassed when this happens. I dont know
> what to do. I usually just pretend I didnt hear the comment and rush out of
> where I am. Yesterday when my daughter said it in the post office I told her
> that it wasnt nice to say, and we left. Once we are out of range I explain to
> Katherine that it hurts peoples feelings when she says things like that, but
> she doesnt understand why. Is there any way to get the point across to her in
> a way that she will understand? Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word
> "fat" which would be worse. Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
> is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr old who
> is just learning things. Help! -Cindy (Mommy to Katherine 1-19-95)
>
DJudge6453
1. I have explained to my daughter that when/if she wants/needs to make a
comment about soemone, that it is inappropriate to say it outloud. She is
finally learning to whisper it softly into my ear....we have discussed the
differences in people and how ALL people have feelings and blablabla.
2. There is a book in the library....sorry but I can't think of the name of
it....It has a picture of a person with a very large nose. The book is very
visual and shows big and small, black and white, etc. It gets out in the open
(which I feel is quite important) how we are all different...it shows it to the
child...it is covert. I think that when we hush our children and discourage
them from talking about it (and keep it covert) we are almost encouraging
problems.
It is amazing what kids understand and can learn at early ages...
Debra
Glen Appleby
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 06:57:32 -0700, Jenn <je...@u.washington.edu>
wrote:
>At that age, my son saw a very big person walking our direction in a store. He
>screamed and ran behind me saying, "I thought that fat guy was going to step on
>me and squash me!" You can imagine my embarassment. I've never found anything
>better than what you're doing. It takes a while. Just keep in mind that she's
>not doing it maliciously; it's just observation...
I *think* that most people who are the "target" of such comments
recognize that there is no malicious intent when the comment is
made by such a young person.
My perception is that it is the child's parent who is most
troubled by the comment because they fear that, because the child
is expressing honestly and without mallice, the parent should do
something to stop it.
I like to turn such experiences into something fun.
Some years ago, a little kid came up to me and asked if I was
really old. I kneeled down and said "Yes I am. You see that
women over there?" (pointing at my wife who is 5 months older
than I am, but who dies her hair and looks much younger than I
do) "She's even older than Santa Claus."
He ran and told his mother, quite excitedly and she had a good
laugh.
My wife, OTOH, gave me The Look(tm).
That's OK. I'm used to it -- but I still have fun.
>However, any more ideas would be great. Does electric shock therapy work? :)
It could -- for the embarassed parents.
>(I'm JOKING, BTW)...
Obviously I am too. It rather peeves me that we must actually
state the obvious, here.
--
Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss's job.
It is your job to find ways around your boss's roadblocks.
______________________________________________________________
Glen Appleby gl...@mtnweb.com <http://www.armory.com/~glena/>
DJudge6453
Oh...and one more thing that I do....especially when my daughter is just
"staring" for instance at a a wheel chair...we go over, introduce ourselves and
say hi, how are you. This breaks the ice and is a wonderful learning
opportunity!
Debra
Ken&Alisha Price
As a big Lady myself, I don't see anything wrong when a child this small
says something like this. They're just learning the differences in people.
I do suggest that the parent not just ignore the comment though, and tell
the child that everyone comes in different shapes and sizes.
cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article <6m0frc$nun$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Annette M. Stroud
>saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never taught her
>about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
>"Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarassed when this happens. I dont know
>what to do. I usually just pretend I didnt hear the comment and rush out of
>where I am. Yesterday when my daughter said it in the post office I told her
>that it wasnt nice to say, and we left. Once we are out of range I explain to
>Katherine that it hurts peoples feelings when she says things like that, but
>she doesnt understand why. Is there any way to get the point across to her in
>a way that she will understand? Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word
>"fat" which would be worse. Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
>is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr old who
>is just learning things. Help! -Cindy (Mommy to Katherine 1-19-95)
I am a fat woman. How you are handling it now sort of bothers me because
the child is being descriptive, not judgmental, and you are sending her
the message that there is something really wrong with being fat and that
fat people are defective.
I have no idea whether the people she's commenting about can take it or
not. That would vary a great deal.
I've forgotten the name of the book, but it's [somebody]'s Garden and it
discusses the fact that humans come in different shapes and sizes.
Announcing someone's size is, however, a personal comment. You might tell
her that sometimes (often) making personal comments makes people
uncomfortable. Tell her that unkind people in the world often torment and
tease people who are different, and her comments might remind them of
painful experiences. See if you can get her to postpone her observations
for a later time so that you can discuss it privately. If she can get
this message, it will save you a world of embarassment when your child
encounters wheelchairs, mustachioed women, pierced teens, white canes,
people of other races, strong perfume, crooked teeth, prosthetic devices,
cross dressers, short statured people, scars and bad toupees.
Annette
HyperMommy
I don't think anyone thinks that you're teaching her that or even that you're not
trying to teach her the right way to do. I look at it like this.... I just try
very hard to teach my kids to be considerate of other people's feelings. When
they slip (they're 4 and 2 and they're bound to slip) then I realize that either
1) the person in question has kids and has been through this or 2) they don't
have kids but understand that kids have to learn and don't expect them to be
little adults or 3) they just don't understand kids... in which case their
opinion isn't terribly important to me anyway.
cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never taught her
> about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Captain Denise Duggan (HyperMommy to Jimmy (10/93) & Joey (9/95))
USS Khai Tam, Tallahassee, Florida
Chief Medical Officer and Extraneous Brass
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cynthia A. Sorrels
One day in a mall, a little girl ran up to me and yelled, "You're FAT!"
It's no lie, I am.
My reply: "So? You've got BROWN hair!" :D
That would work for parents too, btw...
livin' large,
Cindy
--
Cynthia A. Sorrels
Kids Domain
http://www.kidsdomain.com where kids and games RULE!
Lane Browning
cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never taught her
> about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
Why do you get embarrassed? Those people surely know that they are
"big," so it's not news to them. And three year-olds are not too
evolved about social strictures. You'd as soon be embarrassed by a
trout's swimming down a river.
I think you should tell K that it's not nice to talk about people
within their hearing, period. She should address her comments TO them.
I don't think you'd be embarrassed if she said "That woman has a blue
shirt" or "That man has a moustache," so don't give her the idea that
largeness is something icky or taboo. You can say, "Yes, I suppose so"
or "Oh, really? I hadn't noticed."
I like the other poster's comment about "Yes, and you have brown hair."
Observations are natural, it's how we TAINT them that matters. Children
will invariably notice that one person has lighter or darker skin, or a
bigger nose, or no hair...but so what. It's the judgments we need to
look out for.
I think the most important thing, worldwide, for all people of all ages,
is tolerance. Not necessarily acceptance or endorsement, but tolerance.
More easily said than done, of course, but if we could manage it there'd
be a lot fewer wars.
And of course I realize I'm not advancing an original point of view
here! :-)
I dont know
> what to do. I usually just pretend I didnt hear the comment and rush out of
> where I am.
Don't rush, try, instead, "Let's say hello to her."
Or "Oh, and look what a neat purse she has" (if indeed you must
continue talking about other people).
Yesterday when my daughter said it in the post office I told her
> that it wasnt nice to say, and we left.
Perhaps the "big" person your daughter saw is proud of being big and
loves being big. Who's to decide it's not "nice" to notice bigness?
Once we are out of range I explain to
> Katherine that it hurts peoples feelings when she says things like that
Why not tell her the truth, that it embarrasses you and you wish she
wouldn't do it? You can't know how it makes the other people feel,
after all.
,
> "fat" which would be worse.
Lots of people embrace that word. And 55% of the people in this
country, supposedly, are now officially fat. So tell your daughter that
fatness is the norm!
:-)
ALISON_SHEEHAN
I have no real advice except to say that every young child does this -
did you by chance see the recent previous postings here on the subject? -
and that you should just continue telling your daughter that is isn't nice
to talk about the way people look or act in front of them. It will take
awhile before she is old enough to really understand. Anyone with kids
will not blame you for your daughter's remarks - they know how kids can
embarrass their parents with these comments!
cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote in article <6m0frc$nun$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
Tarkaan
cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
> what to do. I usually just pretend I didnt hear the comment and rush out of
> that it wasnt nice to say, and we left. Once we are out of range I explain to
> Katherine that it hurts peoples feelings when she says things like that, but
> she doesnt understand why. Is there any way to get the point across to her in
> a way that she will understand? Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word
> "fat" which would be worse. Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
> is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr old who
> is just learning things. Help! -Cindy (Mommy to Katherine 1-19-95)
Okay, I'll give you a real response. When a little kid says "why is
that man black (fat, bald, old, wearing a dress, etc) don't act shocked
or embarrassed or surprised. Just say "so? There are a lot of black
(fat, bald, old, transvestite) people in the world, what difference does
it make? Why do you care?" and then wait for an answer. You have to
honestly and truely ask "what difference does it make to you or me that
there is a fat man here?" Discuss it. Having the kid think about it
will make them realize that other people's business is none of anyone
else's.
-- Brian Ream Kalamazoo Michigan
-- mailto:osi...@net-link.net http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
Tarkaan
Glen Appleby wrote:
>
> I *think* that most people who are the "target" of such comments
> recognize that there is no malicious intent when the comment is
> made by such a young person.
I am a fat man myself. I've never heard a little kid say things like
that in public, but I've heard *of* it. I don't think of it as an
insult from the child, I think of it as an insult from the parent.
R Beasley
Tarkaan <osi...@net-link.net> wrote:
>cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>>
>> Hello. I'm hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
>> saying embarrassing things about other people in public. I've never taught her
>> about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
>> "Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarrassed when this happens. I dont know
>> what to do. <snip> I'm also wondering if the person that my daughter
>> is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr old who
>> is just learning things. Help! -Cindy (Mommy to Katherine 1-19-95)
Don't be embarrassed. Just like your mother probably taught you
it was impolite to point, and you don't chew with your mouth
open, or put your feet on the furniture, or whatever the rules
are in your house, just tell her that she is not to make remarks
about people. Then tell her if she has a question, you'll talk
about it in the car, or outside, or whatever.
>Okay, I'll give you a real response. When a little kid says "why is
>that man black (fat, bald, old, wearing a dress, etc) don't act shocked
>or embarrassed or surprised. Just say "so? There are a lot of black
>(fat, bald, old, transvestite) people in the world, what difference does
>it make? Why do you care?" and then wait for an answer.
>-- Brian Ream Kalamazoo Michigan
>-- mailto:osi...@net-link.net http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
Well I think this is a little advanced for 3. Most 3yos do not
have a good enough command of the language to be able to respond
why they care, plus it is probably just a discovery comment i.e.
they don't really *care* about it, but are remarking in the same
way they'd say "What a tall building", or "Look there's a white
horse", or similar type observations. I am now also fat, but I
wouldn't blame the kid. I would however want the parent to deal
with it in a way so that it doesn't escalate or get louder and
louder.
grandma Rosalie
Jenn
Tarkaan wrote:
> Glen Appleby wrote:
> >
> > I *think* that most people who are the "target" of such comments
> > recognize that there is no malicious intent when the comment is
> > made by such a young person.
>
> I am a fat man myself. I've never heard a little kid say things like
> that in public, but I've heard *of* it. I don't think of it as an
> insult from the child, I think of it as an insult from the parent.
>
> -- Brian Ream Kalamazoo Michigan
> -- mailto:osi...@net-link.net http://www.net-link.net/~osiris
Then do you have any suggestions? I personally would never have taught my
child to say those things to someone. It's definitely not an insult from me
when he does it, but I don't want to PUNISH him for it because he's not
doing it to hurt anyone...
I used to be very big myself. I used to get comments sometimes and they
hurt even though they weren't malicious. I would never condone Tyler
hurting another human being. So, if you have any suggestions as to how I
could handle this tactfully and teach him, that would be great--but please
don't blame me for it--you don't know me at all.
-Jenn
Jenn
Very good suggestions! Thanks, Annette!
Annette M. Stroud wrote:
> In article <6m0frc$nun$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, <cr...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> >Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> >saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never taught her
> >about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
> >"Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarassed when this happens. I dont know
> >what to do. I usually just pretend I didnt hear the comment and rush out of
> >where I am. Yesterday when my daughter said it in the post office I told her
> >that it wasnt nice to say, and we left. Once we are out of range I explain to
> >Katherine that it hurts peoples feelings when she says things like that, but
> >she doesnt understand why. Is there any way to get the point across to her in
> >a way that she will understand? Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word
> >"fat" which would be worse. Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
> >is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr old who
> >is just learning things. Help! -Cindy (Mommy to Katherine 1-19-95)
>
cindy inness
THERe was a great comment on here by someone when this came up awhile
ago..It went something like this (I am assuming she was "Fat" as to the
tone and content)...."THe worst thing is when kids point out the obvious
and speak the truth as in "she's fat/ he's big/ she's little/He's black/"
and their parents SHUSH them up or pull them away, because this plants the
seed in the childs mind that that person is different or bad, etc..Tell it
like it is "Yes, People exist in all sizes..that is the way it is" in a
perfunctory way, no big deal...
I thought this was really good...From my own experience, I used to get
embarrased as my daughter would yell out "hey, he's dark brown!" I would
be MORTIFIED!! thinking this guy or gal is thinking we are KKK on the
move..THen I realized my overcompensatory stupidity as I was smiling
absurdly at the guy making the "Oh, no I love all people" all eyes..
NOW< I just say..Yeah, he is and you are pink, my love and that is
the end of it!! CHeers, C.
On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never taught her
> about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
> "Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarassed when this happens. I dont know
> what to do. I usually just pretend I didnt hear the comment and rush out of
> where I am. Yesterday when my daughter said it in the post office I told her
> that it wasnt nice to say, and we left. Once we are out of range I explain to
> Katherine that it hurts peoples feelings when she says things like that, but
> she doesnt understand why. Is there any way to get the point across to her in
> a way that she will understand? Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word
> "fat" which would be worse. Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
> is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr old who
> is just learning things. Help! -Cindy (Mommy to Katherine 1-19-95)
>
Lane Browning
Perfectly said, Leah. It's not what we say but what we MEAN by what we say...
Leah Adezio wrote:
>
> cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> >
> > Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> > saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never taught her
> > about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
> > "Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarassed when this happens. I dont know
> > what to do. I usually just pretend I didnt hear the comment and rush out of
> > where I am. Yesterday when my daughter said it in the post office I told her
> > that it wasnt nice to say, and we left. Once we are out of range I explain to
> > Katherine that it hurts peoples feelings when she says things like that, but
> > she doesnt understand why.
>
> Actually, it hurts their feelings more when you do what you're currently
> doing -- making her feel ashamed for pointing out a physical difference.
> What you *might* say if she points out a large person is, "Yes, sweetie.
> People come in all shapes and sizes, and that's a good thing, otherwise
> we'd all look alike and we'd be boring."
>
> You're attaching emotional value to an adjective that could create
> baggage for your child.
>
> > Is there any way to get the point across to her in
> > a way that she will understand? Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word
> > "fat" which would be worse.
>
> The word 'fat' by itself isn't bad. It's the negative connotation that
> *you* attach to it. That creates baggage.
>
> > Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
> > is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr old who
> > is just learning things.
>
> As a large woman, I do understand this about children. What I don't
> understand is the *parents* who do what you're doing, attaching negative
> motivations and insights to observations that don't have any in the first
> place.
>
> Leah
Lane Browning
Jennifer Guy wrote:
>
>a
> Sadly, my own girth has increased to an unfortunate size as of this
> summer's new shorts. There's a wonderful book at the library in the
> juvenile nonfiction section about junk food. I read that with my 5 yo
> and he's very conscious of eating the right things now. He's been able
> to understand for a very long time that people get fat from eating too
> much of the wrong things and not excercising enough.
>
> > I thought this was really good...From my own experience, I used to get
> >embarrased as my daughter would yell out "hey, he's dark brown!" I would
> >be MORTIFIED!! thinking this guy or gal is thinking we are KKK on the
> >move..THen I realized my overcompensatory stupidity as I was smiling
> >absurdly at the guy making the "Oh, no I love all people" all eyes..
> > NOW< I just say..Yeah, he is and you are pink, my love and that is
> >the end of it!! CHeers, C.
> >
> "Cookie Monster is blue."
And Barney is fat, and Cookie Monster eats the wrong foods! :-)
Leah Adezio
Jennifer Guy
>THERe was a great comment on here by someone when this came up awhile
>ago..It went something like this (I am assuming she was "Fat" as to the
>tone and content)...."THe worst thing is when kids point out the obvious
>and speak the truth as in "she's fat/ he's big/ she's little/He's black/"
>and their parents SHUSH them up or pull them away, because this plants the
>seed in the childs mind that that person is different or bad, etc..Tell it
>like it is "Yes, People exist in all sizes..that is the way it is" in a
>perfunctory way, no big deal...
Sadly, my own girth has increased to an unfortunate size as of this
Julie Misa
cindy inness wrote in message ...
>THERe was a great comment on here by someone when this came up awhile
>ago..It went something like this (I am assuming she was "Fat" as to the
>tone and content)...."THe worst thing is when kids point out the obvious
>and speak the truth as in "she's fat/ he's big/ she's little/He's black/"
>and their parents SHUSH them up or pull them away, because this plants the
>seed in the childs mind that that person is different or bad, etc..Tell it
>like it is "Yes, People exist in all sizes..that is the way it is" in a
>perfunctory way, no big deal...
[snip]
I posted here a while ago on the very same topic. While shopping, my then
3-year old daughter said, "Mommy, that lady's FAT!!!!!!". I was embarrassed
and later told her that it's not polite to comment on other people's bodies.
When I posted here, several folks responded that they too are heavy, and
they understand that little children make such observations. They also
pointed out that they are far more bothered by the parent's reaction of
embarrassment. So, I was all ready when this happened again, not to long
ago. Again, I was shopping with my daughter who is now 4. There was a very
obese (I assume) mother and son shopping. My daughter once again said,
"Mom, that lady is fat!" I started to say, "You know what?" intending to
finish off with "all people come in different shapes and sizes". But my
daughter butted right in and said, "Yes, I know, she has a baby in her
tummy!" *groan*
This same daughter is always intrigued by people in wheelchairs, and wants
to know why that person can't walk. I also remember my first daughter
making the observation, "Mom, that man is brown!" upon seeing the cashier at
the supermarket. In these cases, I just reacted with a pretty
straightforward acknowledgement of the situation. I guess that the "fat"
observation threw me for a loop, seeing as "fat" can be viewed as such a
negative thing in the weight-obsessed USofA.
Julie
aMAZon
cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never
> taught her
> about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she
> announces
> "Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarassed when this happens. I dont
> know
> what to do.
I'll echo the other posters and say "You're very observant, and isn't it
neat that we all look different." There's no harm in speaking the
truth.
One thing you can use for when she gets older is this: you can comment
on someone's appearance, IF it's something that could easily and
immediately be corrected. Like, "you've got spinach on your teeth",
"your slip is showing", "your fly is open", etc. Something that would
take more effort is best not commented on.
> Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word "fat" which would be
> worse.
Why? It's a perfectly descriptive word, and need not have negative
connotations. Unless it's automatically paired with "big, lazy slob",
as some folks do.
> Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
> is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr
> old who
> is just learning things.
Hey, about comments like that from a little one, some folks can be very
tolerant.
--
aMAZon
zesz...@worldnet.att.net
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood."
Allan and Liz MacDonald
>This same daughter is always intrigued by people in wheelchairs, and wants
>to know why that person can't walk.
Ann, age 2.5, and I were at the clinic the other day, waiting for my
appointment. She's a social butterfly, and people always smile or start a
conversation with her. An elderly gentleman near us caught her eye, and she
went over to visit. She announced to him, "Man in wheelbarrow!" and cracked
up the entire waiting room.
Liz
Tarkaan
Jenn wrote:
>
> Then do you have any suggestions? I personally would never have taught my
> child to say those things to someone. It's definitely not an insult from me
> when he does it, but I don't want to PUNISH him for it because he's not
> doing it to hurt anyone...
See, I really don't think that's relevant. It doesn't really matter if
the kid meant to do it or not. The kid needs to think about what he
says. Maybe that's a little too advanced for the average three year
old, but I think "don't say that, it embarrasses me" is easily
comprehended.
Tarkaan
Jennifer Guy wrote:
>
> Sadly, my own girth has increased to an unfortunate size as of this
> summer's new shorts. There's a wonderful book at the library in the
> juvenile nonfiction section about junk food. I read that with my 5 yo
> and he's very conscious of eating the right things now. He's been able
> to understand for a very long time that people get fat from eating too
> much of the wrong things and not excercising enough.
Is that so? Is that why people get fat? I wonder - see, if some people
who don't exercise at all and eat everything in sight stay very thin,
and some people exercise every day and still stay very fat, how can you
just say that junk food and lack of exercise is the way people get fat?
It's *one* way people get fat - a major cause, but not the only cause.
Laurie
Tarkaan wrote:
>
> Jenn wrote:
> >
> > Then do you have any suggestions? I personally would never have taught my
> > child to say those things to someone. It's definitely not an insult from me
> > when he does it, but I don't want to PUNISH him for it because he's not
> > doing it to hurt anyone...
>
> See, I really don't think that's relevant. It doesn't really matter if
> the kid meant to do it or not. The kid needs to think about what he
> says. Maybe that's a little too advanced for the average three year
> old, but I think "don't say that, it embarrasses me" is easily
> comprehended.
>
No Brian, actually it's not that easily understood by a three year old
who has no concept of what embarrasment is. They have no frame of
reference, they are innocents who speak their minds. We can teach them,
but there may be some embarrassing comments coming from them before
we've really gotten the point across. To automatically blame the parent
is wrong - it's prejudicial.
A thoughtful comment like "we don't make comments like that to people -
it might hurt their feelings" will probably get the point across, but
how can you say something like that until you're put in the position of
needing to say it? After all, warning a child ahead of time isn't
productive, and may get you exactly the action your trying to guard
against.
Laurie
Marie Houck
In article <6m0frc$nun$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never taught her
> about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she announces
> "Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarassed when this happens. I dont know
> what to do. I usually just pretend I didnt hear the comment and rush out of
> where I am. Yesterday when my daughter said it in the post office I told her
> that it wasnt nice to say, and we left. Once we are out of range I explain to
> Katherine that it hurts peoples feelings when she says things like that, but
> she doesnt understand why. Is there any way to get the point across to her in
> a way that she will understand? Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word
> "fat" which would be worse. Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
> is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr old who
> is just learning things. Help! -Cindy (Mommy to Katherine 1-19-95)
>
Other's have already said it, but I want to reinforce this:
As a woman of substantial size, I am never bothered when a child notices
or comments. I *am* large. Why should it bother me that people notice
that fact? If the child says it to me, I'm perfectly comfortable with
saying something like, "Yes, I am a large person." or even, if the child
uses the word, "Yes, I'm pretty fat." But when a parent sushes them or
rushes them out of the area in embarrassment, I *do* feel embarrassed:
the parent has pointed out, quite clearly, that there is something much of
our curent culture finds "wrong" with me, something that needs to be
ignored or overlooked for politeness sake.
For those of you who are teaching your children that it is "only" a matter
of calories and exercize: the reality is considerably more complex,
involving some medical conditions and some complex psychological issues.
For instance, did you know that a VERY high percentage of adult survivors
of childhood sexual abuse are obese?
--the implication you are giving your children is that I am large because
I am lazy, or lack willpower. I know that is what some people think, but
if you are using those words, I'd like you to be certain that you INTEND
to be teaching your children something negative about those of us who are
large.
Marie Houck
Pas87
>From my own experience, I used to get
>embarrased as my daughter would yell out "hey, he's dark brown!" I would
>be MORTIFIED!! thinking this guy or gal is thinking we are KKK on the
>move..THen I realized my overcompensatory stupidity as I was smiling
>absurdly at the guy making the "Oh, no I love all people" all eyes..
> NOW< I just say..Yeah, he is and you are pink, my love and that is
>the end of it!! CHeers, C.
I liked what you had to say here. I think the fact that you realized you had
been overcompensating and then changed how you acted in this area speaks for
alot of people, myself included. The point is that you meant no harm. On the
contrary, you meant
only good.
I think it's important not to come down on parents who don't handle this kind
of situation in the best way. Most people are only
trying to be as kind as possible and that should be remembered.
LS
Cuth...@web-emp.com
When I was 7 months pregnant, I was helping run a haunted house, so I
was constantly getting comments on my stomach from little kids. Most
of the parents explained that I had a baby in my tummy, and that was
the end of the conversation.
About halfway through the second night, a man and his wife, and their
3 or 4 year old son came through. The little boy asked me why I was so
fat, and the dad said, "She's going to have a baby just like your
mommy". The boy looked at his mom, then back at me, and said, "but
mommy's not fat like that." The mom then said, "Her baby is bigger
than mine" Suddenly a look of understanding passed over the little
boy's eyes, then he turned to his father and said, with awe in his
voice, "You're fat too daddy, does that mean YOU are going to have a
baby?"
Guinevere
Jennifer Guy
On 15 Jun 1998 17:07:49 GMT, meh...@netgate.net (Marie Houck) wrote:
>For those of you who are teaching your children that it is "only" a matter
>of calories and exercize: the reality is considerably more complex,
>involving some medical conditions and some complex psychological issues.
>For instance, did you know that a VERY high percentage of adult survivors
>of childhood sexual abuse are obese?
>
>--the implication you are giving your children is that I am large because
^^^^^^^^
Subject to interpretation.
>I am lazy, or lack willpower. I know that is what some people think, but
>if you are using those words, I'd like you to be certain that you INTEND
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Consider this.
>to be teaching your children something negative about those of us who are
>large.
>
>Marie Houck
We're teaching our eldest (5 yo) about some other medical conditions
he comes into contact with on a regular basis (Grandpa's rheumatoid
arthritis, Uncle's debilitating migraines) which he has some notice of
and has an interest in. He's learning about sex as things come up in
books or situations or life. I'm telling him that certain areas of the
body are only for him, or Mom & Dad to wash in the bath, or for the
doctor to check. I will explain as much as he wants when he asks
specifics or I think there's something additional that will further
his understanding of a subject.
So I'm gonna take the easy way out on this one. I am not telling him,
"Dave, people get fat from eating junk food, not excercising enough,
and/or medical and psychological problems, one of which might be
surviving childhood sexual abuse." That's just too much complication
for a little kid. Sorry, Marie, but I don't see that I'm giving David
any negative connotations about large-ness. I'm explaining the most
common reasons if he's interested, and if it's an oversight in not
explaining all the possible reasons, I certainly don't say, "You're
right, sweetie! What a fat, lazy slob!" (Not to give organizationally
challenged people or activity-level-challenged people a bad
connotation by associating them with those who are weight-challenged!)
Lane Browning
bananas wrote:
>
>
> But actually they probably just watch too much TV. Four hours a day,
> looking at nothing but people who are so slender they could be imported
> from the future race of insects that will inherit the earth and evolve into
> humanoid form. And all with noses as straight as an insect's beak :)
You've watched "Friends?" Always surprised me that four of those six actors, who
have money and incentive (i.e., Hollywood pressure/stereotyping) did not get nose
jobs. Only two of the six have nice noses; the others have eyesore noses, by the
traditional Hollywood standard," which dictates certain proportions and shapes.
Schwimmer's is monstrous, Perry's is deformed, Aniston's is a bulb, and Kudrow's is
some kind of winged flared sneer thing...
Actually there are a lot of what I'd call ugly noses on television. :-)
Nah, I'm not really a shallow person, you brought it up! I just thought I'd mention
it because most people seem to think the stars of "Friends" are gorgeous; so it
proves you can have a huge or ugly nose and still be considered a babe.
Not that there's anything wrong with that...:-)
Jenn
I just wanted to thank everyone for their insights on how to handle these
situations. Even though I wasn't the original poster, I've gained a lot
from other opinions. In fact, I even braved taking my kids out to the
mall--fully expecting to be able to use my new-found tactics.
Un(?)fortunately, I didn't have to use them. :) (Yes, that's a GOOD thing,
but I wanted to try it out!)
-Jenn
aMAZon wrote:
> cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> > My 3 yr old daughter recently started
> > saying embarassing things about other people in public. Ive never
> > taught her
> > about "thin" and "fat", but when she sees a heavy person, she
> > announces
> > "Look, a big Lady/Man". I get so embarassed when this happens. I dont
> > know
> > what to do.
>
> I'll echo the other posters and say "You're very observant, and isn't it
> neat that we all look different." There's no harm in speaking the
> truth.
>
> One thing you can use for when she gets older is this: you can comment
> on someone's appearance, IF it's something that could easily and
> immediately be corrected. Like, "you've got spinach on your teeth",
> "your slip is showing", "your fly is open", etc. Something that would
> take more effort is best not commented on.
>
> > Im just thankful that she doesnt use the word "fat" which would be
> > worse.
>
> Why? It's a perfectly descriptive word, and need not have negative
> connotations. Unless it's automatically paired with "big, lazy slob",
> as some folks do.
>
> > Im also wondering if the person that my daughter
> > is commenting on blames me, or if they understand that this is a 3 yr
> > old who
> > is just learning things.
>
cindy inness
"Is that so? Is that why people get fat? I wonder - see, if some people
who don't exercise at all and eat everything in sight stay very thin,
and some people exercise every day and still stay very fat, how can you
just say that junk food and lack of exercise is the way people get fat?"
I wouldn't be so defensive here...No judgement but yes, this is a MAJOR
cause, the MAJOR cause of obesity in N. AMerica, the continent that has a
serious lack of exercise/obesity/junk food problem..Yeah, there are is a
slim percentage (no pun) of people who have medical problems, but I don't
think there is anything wrong with this poster referring to the
MAJORITY..C.
Theresa & William
cr...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message <6m0frc$nun$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>Hello. Im hoping to get some advice. My 3 yr old daughter recently started
>saying embarassing things about other people in public. {{snipped}}
My brother-in-law had the same problem with his 3y/o daughter. His wife's
solution - something she could relate to:
"Jenni, remember when fell on the rock and it hurt so much you cried and
needed a band-aid? Well, words can hurt too and when people get hurt from
words, there aren't band-aids to make them feel better."
I'm paraphrasing, but that's pretty much what was said to my niece. It
worked, too, because right after her little chat with mommy, she returned to
the person she insulted and apologized.
And she hasn't done it since (unless when referring to her 6y/o brother who
enjoys terrorizing her...but that's a different problem altogether).
Theresa
Emma Heffernan
>
> > just like "ugly" does. There is
> > > no reason for either to, but they do.
> >
> > No reason at all?
>
> No, why should "ugly" have a negative connotation any more than "fat"
> does? They are just descriptions of physical properties.
Maybe it's more that the term `fat' describes a physical condition, the
same as `tall', or `blond', but `ugly' is a subjective term, a social
construct rather than evident fact.
>
Pas87
>>I wonder if it might be a good idea for the mother, when asked
>>one of these questions by a child, to say "Gee, I don't know for
>>sure. How about if you go ask the person if they would mind
>>telling you the answer?"
>>
This doesn't settle well with me but maybe it's just me. If one of my
children comments to me about a person in a wheel chair, I don't need to tell
him that I don't know why he needs a wheel chair because I *do* know. The
person is unable to walk without the
assistance of a wheel chair. If a person is overweight and my child
asks why that person is overweight, I *do* know the answer.
Because people come in all shapes and sizes.
I don't think many people said they *love it* when children make remarks about
their weight or whatever but rather, they expressed how they wished people
would act once the comment had been made. Maybe I misunderstood though.
LS
cat@visi
that...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Perfectly said, Leah. It's not what we say but what we MEAN by what we say...
>
> Not true. IMHO, the kid should be taught that what was said is rude. Period.
> It is considered rude in this society to point to people and talk about them,
> especially to call them big or fat.
So am I to understand that you would consider it rude for a three year
old to point and say "look at that lady, she's wearing a red dress"
Isn't that pointing and talking?
Three year olds are constantly gathering data about their world - almost
everything is new and special to them. If a parent shushes them about
using the word big or fat they soon learn that big or fat is bad while
wearing a red dress isn't.
Given a three year old's limited vocabulary, what word could they use to
describe someone who is big?
Three year olds merely observe they do not ordinarily make value
judgements concerning their observations. It takes a fair amount of
conditioning to evaluate what is or isn't considered ugly and a three
year old simply hasn't that much experience. They do, however, have a
vague concept of what is big....
or maybe not. Case in point.
I was at the park with my soon to be three year old grand daughter and
there was a woman sitting on the bench wriggling her toes in the sand.
My grand daughter said "look gramma, she's big like you". What she
actually meant was she's grown-up like you but I could see a look of
horror pass over the woman's face. That woman is probably doing overtime
at a gym as we speak. :-)
Cathi
Rhonda Burke-Irvine
Earlier this winter, I had a bouncing twelve pound baby boy. You can
imagine what a baby that size and the subsequent caesarian delivery did to
my already large belly. One day as I was drying after a shower, my 2 1/2
year old son came into my room. He said some cute, funny little thing which
made me laugh, setting my very "squishy" belly into motion. He thought this
was wonderful and said, pointing at my middle "Mommy, you look just like
Santa". I thought it was hilarious.
mj...@yahoo.com wrote in article <6m5ksa$r4b$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
> In article <3584AE...@nac.net>,
> Leah Adezio <slad...@nac.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > As a large woman, I do understand this about children. What I don't
> > understand is the *parents* who do what you're doing, attaching
negative
> > motivations and insights to observations that don't have any in the
first
> > place.
> >
> > Leah
> >
>
>
> Hello: Whenever I see a thread such as this I am reminded of something
that
> occured to me several years back. I often babysat for a friends son...at
> this time about 2 years old. He would often come up to me if I were
sitting
> down, crawl up next to me, or in my lap, give me a hug and say "I love
your
> big tummy". I would not verballt respond..but would just give him a big
hug
> right back..and allow him to "cuddle" as much as he wanted!! Marie
*beauty
> comes in all sizes" http://www.thirdage.com/cgi-bin/pp.cgi?v+marie56
Glen Appleby
On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:32:05 GMT, jen...@home.com (Jennifer Guy)
wrote:
>Glen,
>
>Good idea.
<blink>
<looking around warily>
OK, what's going on, here? *Nobody* ever agrees with me here.
I must have done *something* wrong. I just have to find out what
it is and correct it before I get agreement again. I feel
awfully uneasy about this agreement .... or is it only APPARENT
agreement, used to suck me in so that you can *really* rip me
appart?
I'm on to you, Jennifer.
--
Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss's job.
It is your job to find ways around your boss's roadblocks.
______________________________________________________________
Glen Appleby gl...@mtnweb.com <http://www.armory.com/~glena/>
Glen Appleby
On 16 Jun 1998 14:56:39 -0700, da...@hotmail.com wrote:
>Oh, I don't know. I think it is not less rude for a child to inquire about
>someone's body size (or other personal attributes) than it is for an adult to do
>so. It's just that we make more allowances for children because they don't know
>the rules yet.
>
>So, if the child is encouraged by the adult to ask the individual, isn't the
>adult teaching the child to be rude, rather than to be considerate?
I saw it as teaching the child to try to understand -- something
that the kids are born trying to do and this action on the part
of the parent will add to that, rather than to teach the child
that they shouldn't ask, but should pretend to ignore, instead.
>I think
>this is a tricky situation, because you want to teach your kids not to hurt or
>embarrass others, but you don't want to give them negative messages about body
>size at the same time.
I agree that it can be tricky, but young kids seem to handle this
sort of thing pretty well. They tend to ask this sort of
question in total innosence.
> Soooo...let's cut through to what really is the problem
>here. Is it that one is calling attention to the person being fat? I don't
>think so. I think it is just as rude to say "Gee, that woman over there has a
>great body!" It's intrusive, it's inappropriate and it's rude.
Boy -- this takes it to a whole different level -- from one where
a child makes a discovery and comments on it, to one where
sexuality or sensuality come into play.
Are we still talking about a 3 year old, here?
>So here's what we teach our kids: We don't talk about people's bodies in public.
Yikes! Why?
>That is something personal, and it is rude and embarrassing to have one's body
>scrutinized and commented on publicly.
Ah -- using blinders is somehow better?
It sorta sounds as if you would prefer that children are born
without curosity.
Jet Silverman
cat@visi wrote:
>
>
> So am I to understand that you would consider it rude for a three year
> old to point and say "look at that lady, she's wearing a red dress"
> Isn't that pointing and talking?
> Three year olds are constantly gathering data about their world - almost
> everything is new and special to them. If a parent shushes them about
> using the word big or fat they soon learn that big or fat is bad while
> wearing a red dress isn't.
Nonsense. The three year old should be taught what is considered rude
and what is not. It has nothing to do with what is bad or not.
I don't see why this isn't simple and clear.
J
--
Remove the X to email me.
Jet Silverman
Sini Makela wrote:
>
> In soc.support.fat-acceptance Jet Silverman <jet...@earthlink.netX> wrote:
>
> : No, why should "ugly" have a negative connotation any more than "fat"
> : does? They are just descriptions of physical properties.
>
> of physical properties like fat is. what somebody thinks look beutiful
> (or normal) could look ugly to somebody else.
A person who looks fat to one person could not look fat to another, so
your point is?
Actaully, what is considered beautiful and what is considered ugly is
rather universal, and crosses cultures and ages.
da...@hotmail.com
In article <6m7j1d$f...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
Lane Browning <rain...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> da...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >I can imagine the worst reaction to this being the the person
> > >being asked would be gruff and rude to the child -- something
> > >that I have difficulty imagining when faced with the cuteness of
> > >a 3 year old.
>
> You need to stretch your imagination--there are lots of child haters out
> there..and by that I mean not just people who really dislike humans of a
> certain age (and who refer to their parents as, ugh, "breeders), but
> people who for one reason or another resent being "bothered" by children
> in a public place (you remember what W.C. Fields said). Many
> people (and this has been addressed in this group) don't want young
> children in restaurants or at musical events. And even
> child-accepting people are sometimes just crabby or tired and find
> any small-person inquiry to be an intrusion.
>
> At any rate, there are many many people who are powerfully
> resistant to the charms of a typical three year-old. And as we know
> from this group, too, many people love their OWN but don't want to be
> inconvenienced by someone ELSE's! :-)
>
> >
>
> -Laney
> >
>
Please watch your attributions. I did not say what you quoted me as saying. I
merely responded to it.
Thanks
Dale Rosenberg
Bernadette Bosky
In article <6m7j1r$f...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
Lane Browning <rain...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>I was thinking about "big" as in tall...would these same queasy parents also shush a
>child who said "Look, that woman is really tall." Possibly; but so many people in
>this thread have contended that fatness is not a CHOICE, so how does it differ from
>tallness?
>
The answer to the last sentence seems obvious to me, when tall
executives earn more (see *The Height of Your Life*) and fat people earn
less (see Wooley et. al.) for the same work. Some people might not want
attention called to unusual height (especially women), but many, many more
would not want attention called to their fat.
This discussion has been very interesting to me, since I have
always been on the side of "it's just a characteristic; don't stigmatize
it by hiding it" argument. The one time that a child remarked on my size
in public, the mother hushed the child in a way that made it impossible
for me to respond, and I felt cheated.... On the other hand, I agree with
the point that part of growing up is learning not to say out loud
everything you are thinking, too. BAck on the same hand, many times the
"hushing" seems like more of a public nuisance than the original remark.
I dunno. Maybe the best thing is just to say, "Yes, that's nice
dear," to one's child at the time, and later explain that some people like
being fat and others don't, so it's better to be quiet about it. I'm no
parent--but kids could understand something liek that, couldn't they?
As the person receiving the comment, I'd certainly say, "Yes, I
am," with a big smile. If I get the chance.
Bernadette Bosky
--
"Why can't they let a girl marry three men, or as many as want her, and
save all this trouble?"
--Lucy Westenra, _Dracula_ by Bram Stoker (1897)
da...@hotmail.com
In article <358716c0...@news.mtnweb.com>, gl...@mtnweb.com says...
>
>
>
>>So here's what we teach our kids: We don't talk about people's bodies in public.
>
>Yikes! Why?
>
>>That is something personal, and it is rude and embarrassing to have one's body
>>scrutinized and commented on publicly.
>
>Ah -- using blinders is somehow better?
>
>It sorta sounds as if you would prefer that children are born
>without curosity.
>
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Glen Appleby gl...@mtnweb.com <http://www.armory.com/~glena/>
Not at all. Only that they learn when and where to exercise that curiosity.
And that they learn to respect others' privacy. And, as I said, allowances are
made for their youth and lack of knowledge of rules of privacy. But it's my job
as a parent to teach them.
Dale
------------------
Spam free Usenet news http://www.newsguy.com
R Beasley
Jet Silverman <jet...@earthlink.netX> wrote:
>Sini Makela wrote:
>>
>> In soc.support.fat-acceptance Jet Silverman <jet...@earthlink.netX> wrote:
>>
>> : No, why should "ugly" have a negative connotation any more than "fat"
>> : does? They are just descriptions of physical properties.
>>
>> really jet.. surely you understand "ugly" isn't simply description
>> of physical properties like fat is. what somebody thinks look beutiful
>> (or normal) could look ugly to somebody else.
>
>A person who looks fat to one person could not look fat to another, so
>your point is?
>
>Actually, what is considered beautiful and what is considered ugly is
>rather universal, and crosses cultures and ages.
No it isn't. In many cultures, I would be considered a fine
figure of a woman (I weigh about 240 lbs). I have a friend in
the West Indies who considers that she is not thin enough (she is
about 5'10" and weighs maybe 180 - not fat, but certainly not
skinny) and she gets admiring comments from the West Indians
(lookin' good). This is not sarcasm. They consider that she
should, if anything, be heavier.
The Mayans considered crossed eyes and a flat back-of-the head to
be beautiful and tied babies heads to boards so that they would
have this beautiful head shape. The Chinese considered that
small feet were beautiful in women and bound girl babies feet so
they would be small.
grandma Rosalie
rob jones
Jet Silverman wrote in message <35870D5E...@earthlink.netX>...
<snip>
>Please, when a kid yells, "She's fat!" it has nothing to do with
>clinical definitions.
True.
>And beauty is not as subjective as you may think,
>there are universal standards of beauty which can be measured, such as
>symetry and waist to hip ratio.
From a man's point of view... This is ridiculous! Universal standards of
beauty? Waist to hip ratio? At best, these are artificial inventions of
some person who thinks they know better than anyone else. A myth
perpetuated by the beauty industry. Beauty is entirely and completely
subjective. My wife is beautiful - 5'8" hourglass (sort of) figure - size
8. I've also seen women who were twice as "fat" as her who I thought were
stunning. In any case, beauty has far more to do with the way a woman
carries herself & acts than it does her waist to hip ratio.
>In any case, you are avoiding the real issue.
>
>J
>
Rob Jones
Jennifer Guy
On Tuesday, I wrote:
>>Glen,
>>Good idea.
On Wednesday, gl...@mtnweb.com (Glen Appleby) wrote:
><blink>
>
><looking around warily>
>
>OK, what's going on, here? *Nobody* ever agrees with me here.
>
Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think you're one of the most
well-grounded and common-sensed people on the ng. When you've already
posted, I usually don't feel it necessary to comment on a point. In
this case, I deleted basically the same idea from my earlier post. It
wasn't too concise, and I figure nobody reads to the end of my posts
anyway.
>I must have done *something* wrong. I just have to find out what
>it is and correct it before I get agreement again. I feel
>awfully uneasy about this agreement .... or is it only APPARENT
>agreement, used to suck me in so that you can *really* rip me
>appart?
>
>I'm on to you, Jennifer.
Just don't let your wife know, and I won't tell DH!
DJudge6453
Is this thread about fat and beauty or is it about teaching our children how to
get along on this planet? I view my role ( one of them anyway) as a parent,
as having a responsibility to teach my daughter that it is improper to point at
someone and make a comment since we DON"T know what might hurt a person's
feelings. It is best that if she needs to comment on someone that she whispers
it in my ear and shares it with me that way. I also ask her not to point. She
is 3.5 and doesn't fully understand what I am teaching her but she will get it
soon and she is much better at whispering comments.
The key here is.....we cannot assume that what we think/say will compliment or
hurt another. We all have different realities....such as all of the examples
about what is fat to one, is not fat to another. An ugly nose to one is a
beautiful one to someone else. It is all irrelevent if the issue is teaching
children manners, empathy, understanding and kindness. If that isn't our job
to teach, then whose job is it?
Debra
Pas87
>Is this thread about fat and beauty or is it about teaching our children how
>to
>get along on this planet?
>or
>hurt another. We all have different realities...
I agree with you, Debra. Thanks for saying it so well!
LS
gmt
In article <35856393...@news.web-emp.com> Cuth...@web-emp.com writes:
>When I was 7 months pregnant, I was helping run a haunted house, so I
cut
>
>Guinevere
Thanks to newsgroups I thought I had got my head round most
American-English phrases but this one has me stumped. Here
in the UK it means a house with ghosts in. People are less
likely to run one than run away from one! Is 'a haunted house'
some sort of game? Some kind of fairground entertainment?
Thanks
Jill
Elizabeth Gardner
The latter. Schools, churches and charities frequently set them up around
Halloween time, and charge a small admission fee as a fundraiser. They're
usually a "twisty maze" with ghosts and skeletons and whatnot popping out
unexpectedly, and sometimes you get to put your hands into yucky stuff
like peeled grapes and cold spaghetti (billed respectively as eyeballs and
intestines).
Amusement parks sometimes have glossier versions of them.
Glen Appleby
>You need to stretch your imagination--there are lots of child haters out
>there..and by that I mean not just people who really dislike humans of a
>certain age (and who refer to their parents as, ugh, "breeders), but
>people who for one reason or another resent being "bothered" by children
>in a public place (you remember what W.C. Fields said). Many
>people (and this has been addressed in this group) don't want young
>children in restaurants or at musical events. And even
>child-accepting people are sometimes just crabby or tired and find
>any small-person inquiry to be an intrusion.
>
>At any rate, there are many many people who are powerfully
>resistant to the charms of a typical three year-old. And as we know
>from this group, too, many people love their OWN but don't want to be
>inconvenienced by someone ELSE's! :-)
Yep -- while that's true enough, that's why it's a good idea for
the parent to hang close and snatch the child away if the person
is not receptive.
Sure, the parent will have to explain about *that*, but I have
seen the Grinches as being quite minimal.
--
Do not underestimate your abilities. That is your boss's job.
It is your job to find ways around your boss's roadblocks.
Elaine Gallegos
> <358f8317.35038084@news> <358688...@net-link.net>
<35868c5c...@news.mtnweb.com> <3586bc2c.13457629@news> <3586dd8f...@news.mtnweb.com> <6m6pmn$6...@drn.newsguy.com> <6m7j1d$f...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>:
Distribution:
Lane Browning (rain...@worldnet.att.net) wrote:
: da...@hotmail.com wrote:
: >
: > >
: > >I can imagine the worst reaction to this being the the person
: > >being asked would be gruff and rude to the child -- something
: > >that I have difficulty imagining when faced with the cuteness of
: > >a 3 year old.
: You need to stretch your imagination--there are lots of child haters out
: there..
People get embarassed, and angry. Sometimes they do or say unkind things
that they normally would not if they had not been so upset.
and by that I mean not just people who really dislike humans of a
: certain age (and who refer to their parents as, ugh, "breeders), but
: people who for one reason or another resent being "bothered" by children
: in a public place (you remember what W.C. Fields said). Many
: people (and this has been addressed in this group) don't want young
: children in restaurants or at musical events. And even
: child-accepting people are sometimes just crabby or tired and find
: any small-person inquiry to be an intrusion.
: At any rate, there are many many people who are powerfully
: resistant to the charms of a typical three year-old. And as we know
: from this group, too, many people love their OWN but don't want to be
: inconvenienced by someone ELSE's! :-)
: >
: > > That is something personal, and it is rude and embarrassing to have one's body
: > scrutinized and commented on publicly.
: I wonder. I like to hear "I just wanted you to know you have really
: beautiful legs" or "Do you mind my asking what you do to stay in shape?"
: And I like to SAY "Your hair is just gorgeous" (I say this a lot to
: people with gray/white hair, I can't help it) or "What an amazing
: smile you have!"
: Maybe it goes back to what Thumper's mother said...don't say mean
: things, but it's OK to say nice things (within certain guidelines).
: It's curious, isn't it, that talking about "bodies" is considered "rude
: and embarrassing." I wonder why that is. They're just carbon and
: water! :-)
: -Laney
: >
: > Dale Rosenberg, mother of three
: >
: > ------------------
Catherine Hedlin
Jennifer Guy wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:08:40 GMT, gl...@mtnweb.com (Glen Appleby)
> wrote:
> >Wondering about a third option. There have been some posts,
> >here, where larger people have been asked directly about their
> >size and have been comfortable giving some explaination that
> >seems to satisfy the child, the mother and the person in
> >question.
> >I wonder if it might be a good idea for the mother, when asked
> >one of these questions by a child, to say "Gee, I don't know for
> >sure. How about if you go ask the person if they would mind
> >telling you the answer?"
> Glen,
> Good idea.
Nope. I think this is a bad idea. (You can relax now, Glen,
knowing I'm not setting you up to tear you down later, I'll
just take my stabs now.)
Most people would not like to have to go around explaining
why they are so big, so short, so tall, so skinny, so pimply,
whatever, to any curious person. Not even a cute little 3 year old.
Training a child in good manners means teaching them not to
make personal comments on a person's looks, except as a compliment.
If they think a very large person looks terrific, they are
certainly allowed to say so, but not to ask why they got that
way. I'll have to consult Miss Manners' "Guide to Raising Perfect
Children", but I'm pretty sure she'd back me up on this one.
Catherine
Glen Appleby
>Nope. I think this is a bad idea. (You can relax now, Glen,
>knowing I'm not setting you up to tear you down later, I'll
>just take my stabs now.)
<wshew> I am quite liking the idea of feeling like a pincushion
with all of the knives that get thrust through my ribs.
>Most people would not like to have to go around explaining
>why they are so big, so short, so tall, so skinny, so pimply,
>whatever, to any curious person. Not even a cute little 3 year old.
This given the choice between a parent shushing a kid (leaving
all to think that something *terrible* had transpired) or
suggesting that the kid simply go ask?
See, the kids *are* going to make the comments. That's one of
the main jobs of kids -- honesty.
>Training a child in good manners means teaching them not to
>make personal comments on a person's looks, except as a compliment.
>If they think a very large person looks terrific, they are
>certainly allowed to say so, but not to ask why they got that
>way.
If a kid finds an adult to be strange, they should be embarassed
into saying nothing. If the kid finds an adult to be attractive,
though, they are allowed to comment on the attractiveness, but
they are not allowed to discover how *they* can become that
attractive.
Are you *trying* to make all kids into psych cases?
> I'll have to consult Miss Manners' "Guide to Raising Perfect
>Children", but I'm pretty sure she'd back me up on this one.
Forgive me, but if good manners requires teaching kids to not
seek out honesty and teaches kids that they should distrust
themselves, then any book that Miss Manners may have written
would be most suitable as a replacement for toilet paper.
Glen Appleby
On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:18:51 GMT, jen...@home.com (Jennifer Guy)
wrote:
>On Wednesday, gl...@mtnweb.com (Glen Appleby) wrote:
>><blink>
>>
>><looking around warily>
>>
>>OK, what's going on, here? *Nobody* ever agrees with me here.
>>
>Sorry to burst your bubble, but I think you're one of the most
>well-grounded and common-sensed people on the ng.
Oh, DARN! Then I am doing it all wrong. I'm gonna have to go
back and re-take that class in terrorist training. It is clear
that I have overlooked *something* in the training.
> When you've already
>posted, I usually don't feel it necessary to comment on a point. In
>this case, I deleted basically the same idea from my earlier post. It
>wasn't too concise, and I figure nobody reads to the end of my posts
>anyway.
Try putting some sort of test in at the end.
>>I'm on to you, Jennifer.
>
>Just don't let your wife know, and I won't tell DH!
Uh, oh -- that's it! Yer gonna blackmail me with Kathy, huh?
Kim Murrell
In article <3594e276.23261641@news>, jen...@home.com (Jennifer Guy) wrote:
>On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:08:40 GMT, gl...@mtnweb.com (Glen Appleby)
>wrote:
>>one of these questions by a child, to say "Gee, I don't know for
>>sure. How about if you go ask the person if they would mind
>>telling you the answer?"
I don't know if that is a good idea. Some people are very comfortable
being big, others aren't and might be embarassed. The age of the
person should also be taken into account. I battled a weight problem
all through my teens and I would have been mortified if anyone - even
a child - had walked up and asked , "Why are you fat?"
I think the best solution has already been given in this thread (many
times in fact, but I'll repeat it again). Just tell the child that
people come in all different sizes.
Kim
--
Kim's Homepage has moved again!
http://www.warped.com/~murrell/kim
Catherine Hedlin
Glen Appleby wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:55:09 -0700, Catherine Hedlin
> <cdh@eos_nospam_.ucsd.edu> wrote:
> <wshew> I am quite liking the idea of feeling like a pincushion
> with all of the knives that get thrust through my ribs.
Good, I'll do it again.
> >Most people would not like to have to go around explaining
> >why they are so big, so short, so tall, so skinny, so pimply,
> >whatever, to any curious person. Not even a cute little 3 year old.
> This given the choice between a parent shushing a kid (leaving
> all to think that something *terrible* had transpired) or
> suggesting that the kid simply go ask
Most people know that when a parent shushes a child, it has nothing
to do with something terrible transpiring.
There's always the solution of getting the kid to speak quietly
in public so that any questions are heard by the parent and
not by the general assembly. I don't mean turning the kid into
a passive, mousy kind of creature, but one who doesn't shout out
questions, thoughts, or observations in public places.
> If a kid finds an adult to be strange, they should be embarassed
> into saying nothing.
Well, I didn't say embarrassed. I'm not sure what age you're
talking about, but I think it's reasonable to expect a 3yo
to be understanding and compassionate enough not to point and
stare at everyone they find strange. I guess I should qualify
that. Someone here wrote that a boy came up to her(him?) and
told her that she had a monster nose and that a nose was supposed
to look his. That is the sort of observation that should be
nipped in the bud. I don't think that the kid was trying to be
dishonest about his opinion, but should have known that honesty
should be tempered by kindness.
> > I'll have to consult Miss Manners' "Guide to Raising Perfect
> >Children", but I'm pretty sure she'd back me up on this one.
> Forgive me, but if good manners requires teaching kids to not
> seek out honesty and teaches kids that they should distrust
> themselves, then any book that Miss Manners may have written
> would be most suitable as a replacement for toilet paper.
Youch, I don't think I'll try that, thanks.
Catherine
Marie Houck
> In article <35856393...@news.web-emp.com> Cuth...@web-emp.com writes:
> >When I was 7 months pregnant, I was helping run a haunted house, so I
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> cut
> >
> >Guinevere
>
> Thanks to newsgroups I thought I had got my head round most
> American-English phrases but this one has me stumped. Here
> in the UK it means a house with ghosts in. People are less
> likely to run one than run away from one! Is 'a haunted house'
> some sort of game? Some kind of fairground entertainment?
>
> Thanks
>
> Jill
Both, sort of. People tend to make up fake houses with ghosts and goblins
and such scary stuff, and invite other people in for Halloween.
Frequently, these are done as fund raisers: my kids' school used to do
this. The teachers got into makeup as witches and goblins and ghosties,
there was a fake coffin with a lid that would unexpectedly--and loudly!--
pop open, and a corpse would come out. They did such a good job that my
younger ones couldn't stand it -- they got REALLY scared -- until they
were about 7.
Marie Houck
Jet Silverman
rob jones wrote:
>
> From a man's point of view... This is ridiculous! Universal standards of
> beauty? Waist to hip ratio? At best, these are artificial inventions of
> some person who thinks they know better than anyone else. A myth
> perpetuated by the beauty industry.
LOL! These standards pre-date money, let alone the "beauty industry".
My wife is beautiful - 5'8" hourglass (sort of) figure - size
> 8.
Thanks for helping to prove my point.
Jet Silverman
R Beasley wrote:
>
> Jet Silverman <jet...@earthlink.netX> wrote:
>
>
> No it isn't. In many cultures, I would be considered a fine
> figure of a woman (I weigh about 240 lbs). I have a friend in
> the West Indies who considers that she is not thin enough (she is
> about 5'10" and weighs maybe 180 - not fat, but certainly not
> skinny) and she gets admiring comments from the West Indians
> (lookin' good). This is not sarcasm. They consider that she
> should, if anything, be heavier.
All your little arguments will not change all of human history. There is
a universal standard of beauty, I never said it had anything to do with
wight.
>
> The Mayans considered crossed eyes and a flat back-of-the head to
> be beautiful and tied babies heads to boards so that they would
> have this beautiful head shape. The Chinese considered that
> small feet were beautiful in women and bound girl babies feet so
> they would be small.
>
Again, has nothing to do with the universal standard of beauty.
savonarola2
They all do it and it's always an embarrassment
Smile, wryly, as we all do, and pray for sufferance as we all do....keep
talking, it goes
away!
savonarola2
When I was a kid I always wondered why my
Mother was so interested in my playmates.
Fortunately I lived in a neighborhood where
all the Parents disciplined all the kids; that
was just the way we got along. Down the block
lived a Family who wanted their small Daughter
to speak German. When her whistle blew she
had to go home because she was learning too
much English from us. One day her Mother
asked why we teased her so unmercifully about
the whistle. We told her Mom she wanted to
speak English. We never again heard the whistle.
Miche and Dave
In article <3588493A...@earthlink.netX>, Jet Silverman
<jet...@earthlink.netX> wrote:
> rob jones wrote:
> >
>
> > From a man's point of view... This is ridiculous! Universal standards of
> > beauty? Waist to hip ratio? At best, these are artificial inventions of
> > some person who thinks they know better than anyone else. A myth
> > perpetuated by the beauty industry.
>
> LOL! These standards pre-date money, let alone the "beauty industry".
He didn't say 'invented by,' he said 'perpetuated by.'
Miche
--
dhmec at albatross dot co dot nz
You say Chaos like it's a _bad_ thing!
savonarola2
Children are honest without knowing what
Honesty is; that's why they're so charming.
They don't lose this innocense until they're
taught otherwise. Naturally it's NEVER at
home; it's always the fault of the scapegoat!
So.......from wherever this deportment was
learned, it must be neutralized by making a
choice. Separation of Child & source is solu-
tion A. Solution B is altering the source. Your
options are few.
savonarola2
Jet has the cart way out in front of the horse,
here. A 3-yr. old's behavior doesn't need to be
chastized by you for not knowing what it means
to be rude. If you ever taught a 3-yr. old the
meaning of rudeness you did it with a whip and
a chair. Shame on you for such churlishness!
cindy inness
"The Mayans considered crossed eyes and a flat back-of-the head to
> be beautiful and tied babies heads to boards so that they would
> have this beautiful head shape. The Chinese considered that
> small feet were beautiful in women and bound girl babies feet so
> they would be small.
>
Again, has nothing to do with the universal standard of beauty.
J"
ARe you understanding what "universal" and "standard" mean?????
Carol Elaine Cyr
Jet Silverman wrote:
> rob jones wrote:
> >
>
> > From a man's point of view... This is ridiculous! Universal standards of
> > beauty? Waist to hip ratio? At best, these are artificial inventions of
> > some person who thinks they know better than anyone else. A myth
> > perpetuated by the beauty industry.
>
> LOL! These standards pre-date money, let alone the "beauty industry".
> My wife is beautiful - 5'8" hourglass (sort of) figure - size
> > 8.
>
> Thanks for helping to prove my point.
Well, sure, you make it look like Rob is "proving your point" when you cut out
the rest of his paragraph:
>>I've also seen women who were twice as "fat" as her who I thought were
>>stunning. In any case, beauty has far more to do with the way a woman
>>carries herself & acts than it does her waist to hip ratio.Now does the rest
of the paragraph also prove your point?
Carol :-D
--
********************************************************
To reply, replace "spam-me-not" with "geocities".
Francaise's Strand O' Vanity:
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/8790
It's not much, but it's home!
"I'm worried about the Tick. I don't think falling 4,000 feet
and getting hit by a subway train did him any good."
Arthur - The Tick
********************************************************
Jet Silverman
Miche and Dave wrote:
>
>
> > LOL! These standards pre-date money, let alone the "beauty industry".
>
I know, I think it is funny and stupid, and paranoid. Beauty industry or
no, we would still have the universal standard of beauty. It is like
saying the food industry perpetuates the desrie to eat.
Theresa & William
Rhonda Maguire wrote in message <53ra0oy...@love.m.enhanced.com>...
>A story that comes to mind that you may be familiar with is where
>Christ and His disciples were walking along a dirt path and saw a dead
>dog on the side of the road...while everyone remarked how ugly and
>disgusting the dead dog looked...Christ said, "Look, he has such clean
>white teeth!"
Not to start any Biblical debates, but I'm quite curious as to where you
found this story.
I've never seen it in my Bible or even heard of it before.
Just curious,
Theresa
Jet Silverman
--
Remove the X to email me.
C
> > Thanks for helping to prove my point.
>
> Well, sure, you make it look like Rob is "proving your point" when you cut out
> the rest of his paragraph:
>
> >>I've also seen women who were twice as "fat" as her who I thought were
> >>stunning. In any case, beauty has far more to do with the way a woman
> >>carries herself & acts than it does her waist to hip ratio.
Now does the rest
> of the paragraph also prove your point?
>
My point was that a small waist to hip ratio is universally considered
beautiful, he said his wife is beautiful and then said she has a small
waist to hip ratio. Weight has nothing to do with waist to hip ratio.
J
Glen Appleby
On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:20:57 -0700, Catherine Hedlin
<cdh@eos_nospam_.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>Glen Appleby wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:55:09 -0700, Catherine Hedlin
>> <cdh@eos_nospam_.ucsd.edu> wrote:
>
>> <wshew> I am quite liking the idea of feeling like a pincushion
>> with all of the knives that get thrust through my ribs.
>
>Good, I'll do it again.
Should I consider having a rib surgically removed so that you
might be able to accomplish this more readily?
I don't mind -- I'd just like to know in advance. There is
nothing worse than being a pincushion for the occasional knife,
then being yelled at because my ribs are dulling the knives.
>> >Most people would not like to have to go around explaining
>> >why they are so big, so short, so tall, so skinny, so pimply,
>> >whatever, to any curious person. Not even a cute little 3 year old.
>
>> This given the choice between a parent shushing a kid (leaving
>> all to think that something *terrible* had transpired) or
>> suggesting that the kid simply go ask
>
>Most people know that when a parent shushes a child, it has nothing
>to do with something terrible transpiring.
Ah, but what about the kid? I am somewhat less concerned with
the parents than I am with the kids.
After all, if a parent has some sort of emotional problem, they
have the freedom to work out that problem. The kid usually
doesn't have that choice until they are 18.
>There's always the solution of getting the kid to speak quietly
>in public so that any questions are heard by the parent and
>not by the general assembly. I don't mean turning the kid into
>a passive, mousy kind of creature, but one who doesn't shout out
>questions, thoughts, or observations in public places.
Ya know -- I kinda figure that, if left to their own devices in a
non-judgemental setting, most kids will come to that pretty
quickly.
>> If a kid finds an adult to be strange, they should be embarassed
>> into saying nothing.
>
>Well, I didn't say embarrassed. I'm not sure what age you're
>talking about, but I think it's reasonable to expect a 3yo
>to be understanding and compassionate enough not to point and
>stare at everyone they find strange.
I expect that understand and compassion are things that people
learn about naturally. We tend to see in others what we feel
about ourselves.
Perhaps I should say more about that, but I am assuming that most
readers will think about that and see the implications. If the
implications are not readily apparent, I'll be happy to go into
it in more depth.
> I guess I should qualify
>that. Someone here wrote that a boy came up to her(him?) and
>told her that she had a monster nose and that a nose was supposed
>to look his. That is the sort of observation that should be
>nipped in the bud. I don't think that the kid was trying to be
>dishonest about his opinion, but should have known that honesty
>should be tempered by kindness.
I assume that the kid would come to that eventually and that this
is a stage that the kid is going through in the process of
understanding himself and others.
Yes, it can be something of an inconvenience to others, much like
a crying baby can be an inconvenience to others. I sure as heck
hope that nobody would suggest that a crying baby be muffled so
as not to disturb others.
I think that most people are understanding of some of the
inconveniences that can be caused by young kids.
Kristin Satterlee
Well...it does. A lot of the point of all that bright happy
packaging and all those exciting "NEW! NOW TASTIER!!" kinds of food is to
tempt you to eat whether you're hungry or not.
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Jet Silverman wrote:
>
> I know, I think it is funny and stupid, and paranoid. Beauty industry or
> no, we would still have the universal standard of beauty. It is like
> saying the food industry perpetuates the desrie to eat.
>
> J
>
> --
>
>
> Remove the X to email me.
>
>
-Kristin Satterlee
********************************************************
"Sex is not a soccer game. The use of hands is permitted."
Carol Wade
K. Parsons
If that has nothing to do with a universal standard of beauty, I would
submit there is none. That would require all or most cultures to have
similiar standards. You just disproved your own argument.
In article
<Pine.BSF.3.96.98061...@callisto.uwinnipeg.ca>, cindy
Elizabeth Gardner
In article <kparsons-180...@tiffany.berkeley.edu>,
kpar...@uclink4.berkeley.edu (K. Parsons) wrote:
Jet keeps reiterating that there is one, but won't actually describe it.
Perhaps instead of saying that people's counter examples have nothing to
do with it, you could explain what the universal standard of beauty is so
that we know what you're talking about.
Lane Browning
cindy inness wrote:
>
> "The Mayans considered crossed eyes and a flat back-of-the head to
> > be beautiful and tied babies heads to boards so that they would
> > have this beautiful head shape. The Chinese considered that
> > small feet were beautiful in women and bound girl babies feet so
> > they would be small.
> >
>
> Again, has nothing to do with the universal standard of beauty.
>
> J"
>
> ARe you understanding what "universal" and "standard" mean?????
exist any "universals" about beauty.
Lane Browning
Jet Silverman wrote:
>
> --
>
>
>
> My point was that a small waist to hip ratio is universally considered
> beautiful, he said his wife is beautiful and then said she has a small
>
> JNo, this is simply not true. Maybe you mean "majority," but "universal" just
doesn't work in this discussion.
O Kathie o
In article <3588C6F6...@earthlink.net>, Jet Silverman
<jet...@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>My point was that a small waist to hip ratio is universally considered
>beautiful, he said his wife is beautiful and then said she has a small
>waist to hip ratio. Weight has nothing to do with waist to hip ratio.
>
>J
>
>
There's this saying: You can dance and sing with a pig all day and you can try
to make the pig sing with you, but by the end of the day, all you've done is
make the pig angry and you've gotten dirty. Interesting that I recall that
saying at a moment like this.....
K. Leung
kle...@earthling.net
okat...@aol.com
cindy inness
I think you misunderstood here..I was referencing two separate posters
here...THe first one I agreed with, the second (J) made no sense...What
you stated was what I was agreeing with, not disagreeing!.Cheers< C.
Lane Browning
Rupa K. Bose wrote:
>
> Elizabeth Gardner wrote:
> >
>
> > Jet keeps reiterating that there is one, but won't actually describe it.
> > Perhaps instead of saying that people's counter examples have nothing to
> > do with it, you could explain what the universal standard of beauty is so
> > that we know what you're talking about.
>
> 'universal standards' -- or at least standards that the researchers
> found were accepted by whichever bits of their universe they tried. The
> most important, it seems, was symmetry: the more symmetrical a face (and
> presumably a body) the more beautiful a person was judged to be. This
> applied to men and women alike. The second was a waist:hip ratio of (I
> think) 80% or less; I may have got the number wrong. This applied only
> to women. The absolute size of the woman, and her height, were not
> universals, but this ratio was.
I think I saw this study. The cover of either NEWSWEEK or TIME. It was
not conducted in China, which is where most humans live, so how can it
aspire to anything remotely close to "universal"?
I think the symmetry part is persuasive, though, because that applies to
all life forms. The reason--symmetry often connotes health/competence
(two legs the same length, eyes at same height, matching arms, etc.).
So creatures deselect assymetrical mates because said candidates might
not be able to procreate, hunt, nurture, whatever.
Symmetrical faces are extremely rare, by the way, and many people prefer
"quirky" faces with "flaws." I'm sure you know that, I was just
throwing it in. Myself, if I were picking, would "deselect" that mole
Cindy Crawford insists on keeping! :-)
Rupa K. Bose
Elizabeth Gardner wrote:
>
> Jet keeps reiterating that there is one, but won't actually describe it.
> Perhaps instead of saying that people's counter examples have nothing to
> do with it, you could explain what the universal standard of beauty is so
> that we know what you're talking about.
Apparently the latest research into beauty indicates that there are some
'universal standards' -- or at least standards that the researchers
found were accepted by whichever bits of their universe they tried. The
most important, it seems, was symmetry: the more symmetrical a face (and
presumably a body) the more beautiful a person was judged to be. This
applied to men and women alike. The second was a waist:hip ratio of (I
think) 80% or less; I may have got the number wrong. This applied only
to women. The absolute size of the woman, and her height, were not
universals, but this ratio was.
Incidentally, by universal, it didn't mean that *every* person in the
sample agreed, it was just that a substantial majority did, universally
across the cultures studied.
Apparently, the researchers found these criteria tied into 'reproductive
fitness.'
Incidentally, if you were a peahen, the universal criteria of beauty
would be the size and number of the 'eyes' in the tail of the peacock.
Apparently the peacocks with numerous, larger eyes have larger
offspring, which helps when you're a ground-nesting bird.
Rupa
Jet Silverman
Lane Browning wrote:
>
> > I think this poster IS understanding, and she is refuting the idea that there
> exist any "universals" about beauty.
Then she does not know what she is talking about. It's that simple.
J
--
Sometimes I think my brain has a mind of its own.
Jet Silverman
K. Parsons wrote:
>
> If that has nothing to do with a universal standard of beauty, I would
> submit there is none.
That only shows that you are cluless.
That would require all or most cultures to have
> similiar standards.
No, it would not, it would only require that there are some important
common elements to what is considered beautiful in all or most cultures.
Jet Silverman
Kristin Satterlee wrote:
>
> Well...it does. A lot of the point of all that bright happy
> packaging and all those exciting "NEW! NOW TASTIER!!" kinds of food is to
> tempt you to eat whether you're hungry or not.
>
Again, thanks for helping me prove my point about how funny the concept
is. The desire to eat would exist with or with out a food industry.
Jet Silverman
Lane Browning wrote:
>
> Jet Silverman wrote:
>
> > JNo, this is simply not true. Maybe you mean "majority," but "universal" just
> doesn't work in this discussion.
Why are you playing word games?
Kate Jeffery
In article <35872A...@visi.com>, "cat@visi" <cat...@visi.com> writes:
> that...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > Not true. IMHO, the kid should be taught that what was said is rude. Period.
> > It is considered rude in this society to point to people and talk about them,
> > especially to call them big or fat.
>
> So am I to understand that you would consider it rude for a three year
> old to point and say "look at that lady, she's wearing a red dress"
> Isn't that pointing and talking?
In the UK that's certainly true! Even to indicate that you *saw* someone else is
to badly contravene accepted social protocol. It's quite funny to watch
passengers on a crowded commuter train whose glances accidentally meet.
Even funnier how 300 people can stand in a small space and not be touching each
other.
Seriously, though, I have been struck by the cultural aspect of this thread.
Over here, to talk about someone else in public is *rude* regardless of what
you said about them. If my daughter says anything about anybody she's met
with a "We don't talk about people in front of them" and if she asks why I
say "because it's embarrassing to be talked about". Yes, that's stifling a
4 yr old's natural curiosity but it's also trying to shape them to fit into
their social world. So, if a child said "Why is that person so big?" you
would *never* say "Why don't you go and ask them". The poor person would die
on the spot!
So, I wonder how many of the differences of opinion expressed here stem from
regional variations in accepted protocol.
Cheers,
Kate
R Beasley
Jet Silverman <jet...@earthlink.netX> wrote:
>Lane Browning wrote:
>>
>> > I think this poster IS understanding, and she is refuting the idea that there
>> exist any "universals" about beauty.
>
>Then she does not know what she is talking about. It's that simple.
>
>J
No you are the person who does not know what you are talking
about, - don't know anything and cannot express it well in the
bargain. To the killfile with you.
grandma Rosalie
rob jones
Kristin,
Apparently Jet is incapable of recognizing when an argument has been
logically & obviously refuted.
Rob
Jet Silverman wrote in message <358A4772...@earthlink.netX>...
>Kristin Satterlee wrote:
>>
>> Well...it does. A lot of the point of all that bright happy
>> packaging and all those exciting "NEW! NOW TASTIER!!" kinds of food is to
>> tempt you to eat whether you're hungry or not.
>>
>
>Again, thanks for helping me prove my point about how funny the concept
>is. The desire to eat would exist with or with out a food industry.
>
Jennifer Guy
>In article <35872A...@visi.com>, "cat@visi" <cat...@visi.com> writes:
>> that...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> > Not true. IMHO, the kid should be taught that what was said is rude. Period.
>> > It is considered rude in this society to point to people and talk about them,
>> > especially to call them big or fat.
>>
>> So am I to understand that you would consider it rude for a three year
>> old to point and say "look at that lady, she's wearing a red dress"
>> Isn't that pointing and talking?
>
>In the UK that's certainly true! Even to indicate that you *saw* someone else is
>to badly contravene accepted social protocol. It's quite funny to watch
>passengers on a crowded commuter train whose glances accidentally meet.
>Even funnier how 300 people can stand in a small space and not be touching each
>other.
>
>Seriously, though, I have been struck by the cultural aspect of this thread.
>Over here, to talk about someone else in public is *rude* regardless of what
>you said about them. If my daughter says anything about anybody she's met
>with a "We don't talk about people in front of them" and if she asks why I
That leaves open the option of talking about people behind their
backs....
rob jones
Thank you. Actually posting something that may have a reasonable scientific
basis. I'd like to read that. Do you happen to have a reference? A little
supporting evidence isn't too much to ask for. :)
Rob Jones
Rupa K. Bose wrote in message <358A4F...@pacific.net.sg>...
Glen Appleby
>Seriously, though, I have been struck by the cultural aspect of this thread.
>Over here, to talk about someone else in public is *rude* regardless of what
>you said about them. If my daughter says anything about anybody she's met
>with a "We don't talk about people in front of them" and if she asks why I
>say "because it's embarrassing to be talked about".
This is interesting because, over here, talking about somebody
behind their back is considered to be gossip -- a Bad Thing(tm).
> Yes, that's stifling a
>4 yr old's natural curiosity but it's also trying to shape them to fit into
>their social world. So, if a child said "Why is that person so big?" you
>would *never* say "Why don't you go and ask them". The poor person would die
>on the spot!
Ouch! I'm getting the impression that British culture has many
of the same restrictive/denial aspects that the Japaneese culture
seems to have.
Too bad, too, because I had *just* discovered the joys of
Twinings Earl Grey tea.
Seriously though, a guy that I worked with is married to a
Japaneese woman. They had gone back to Japan many times to
visit. He told me about one time when they had gotten into a row
boat and were going down this river. His wife and mother in law
were going on about how beautiful the river was. He made mention
of all of the garbage strewn on the banks. His wife and MIL
looked at the banks and didn't even see the garbage and denied
that it was there, even after it was pointed out to them.
>So, I wonder how many of the differences of opinion expressed here stem from
>regional variations in accepted protocol.
This makes me wonder how many regional variations in accepted
protocol have caused people to spend major portions of their
adult lives in therapy.
Jennifer Guy
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 14:24:47 GMT, gl...@mtnweb.com (Glen Appleby)
wrote:
>On Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:38:45 GMT, ka...@anatomy.ucl.ac.uk (Kate
>Jeffery) wrote:
>
>>Seriously, though, I have been struck by the cultural aspect of this thread.
>>Over here, to talk about someone else in public is *rude* regardless of what
>>you said about them. If my daughter says anything about anybody she's met
>>with a "We don't talk about people in front of them" and if she asks why I
>>say "because it's embarrassing to be talked about".
>
>This is interesting because, over here, talking about somebody
>behind their back is considered to be gossip -- a Bad Thing(tm).
>
>> Yes, that's stifling a
>>4 yr old's natural curiosity but it's also trying to shape them to fit into
>>their social world. So, if a child said "Why is that person so big?" you
>>would *never* say "Why don't you go and ask them". The poor person would die
>>on the spot!
>
>Ouch! I'm getting the impression that British culture has many
>of the same restrictive/denial aspects that the Japaneese culture
>seems to have.
>
>Too bad, too, because I had *just* discovered the joys of
>Twinings Earl Grey tea.
>
>Seriously though, a guy that I worked with is married to a
>Japanese woman. They had gone back to Japan many times to
>visit. He told me about one time when they had gotten into a row
>boat and were going down this river. His wife and mother in law
>were going on about how beautiful the river was. He made mention
>of all of the garbage strewn on the banks. His wife and MIL
>looked at the banks and didn't even see the garbage and denied
>that it was there, even after it was pointed out to them.
See the female lawyer in Richard Gere's latest (On home video now, in
stores near you!)
Glen Appleby
>Symmetrical faces are extremely rare, by the way, and many people prefer
>"quirky" faces with "flaws." I'm sure you know that, I was just
>throwing it in. Myself, if I were picking, would "deselect" that mole
>Cindy Crawford insists on keeping! :-)
Geeze -- we are in agreement, here.
I would find myself staring at that mole thinking "Should I *do*
something with it?"
Marie Houck
> Seriously, though, I have been struck by the cultural aspect of this thread.
> Over here, to talk about someone else in public is *rude* regardless of what
> you said about them. If my daughter says anything about anybody she's met
> with a "We don't talk about people in front of them" and if she asks why I
> say "because it's embarrassing to be talked about". Yes, that's stifling a
> 4 yr old's natural curiosity but it's also trying to shape them to fit into
> their social world. So, if a child said "Why is that person so big?" you
> would *never* say "Why don't you go and ask them". The poor person would die
> on the spot!
>
> So, I wonder how many of the differences of opinion expressed here stem from
> regional variations in accepted protocol.
>
I suspect there is a great deal of truth to this. I've lived in the
mid-West (Wisconsin and Minnesota) , New England (Massachusetts, north of
Boston) and now California (San Jose). The difference in what is
acceptable public behavior caught me quite off guard, espeically the first
move! The most dramatic examples (for me) occurred when strangers were
stuck in relatively close proximity for some period of time. Here, casual
chatting is common, but silence is OK, too. In the mid-west, you could
hear someone's life story in a grocery store line, and silence was nearly
unheard of. In New England, one simply did NOT talk to strangers. I did
anyway, but got some very odd looks. I once was in a jury waiting room
for about 4 hours with a large group of people (about 25 or 30, I think)
with nothing to do but see if we'd get called to a jury. I decided to NOT
start a conversation, to see what would happen. There was NO conversation
in the room for over 2 hours! It helped me understand why I so often felt
out of place there.
OTOH, in the culture of my father's family (Anishanabe), it is considered
extremely rude to point with your fingers, at darned near anything. My
father points with his chin, or nods in a direction. While I have become
comfortable pointing at THINGS, I still never point with my fingers at
people, even when it might be appropriate (as in, "your mommie's over
there")
So, yes, I suspect a large part of the differences are, indeed cultural.
Marie Houck
Nancy Lebovitz
In article <mehouck-1906...@pm3-25.netgate.net>,
Marie Houck <meh...@netgate.net> wrote:
>
>OTOH, in the culture of my father's family (Anishanabe), it is considered
>extremely rude to point with your fingers, at darned near anything. My
>father points with his chin, or nods in a direction. While I have become
>comfortable pointing at THINGS, I still never point with my fingers at
>people, even when it might be appropriate (as in, "your mommie's over
>there")
>
--
Nancy Lebovitz (nan...@universe.digex.net)
May '98 calligraphic button catalogue available by email!
Kristin Satterlee
Jet, stop being so freaking smug and twisting everyone's meanings
around. You cannot for a second actually believe I meant that people
wouldn't want to eat if it weren't for advertising. Duh. But advertising
does make people want to eat *more* *than* *they* *otherwise* *would*.
Is that clear enough for you? Sheesh.
-Kristin
On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Jet Silverman wrote:
> Kristin Satterlee wrote:
> >
> > Well...it does. A lot of the point of all that bright happy
> > packaging and all those exciting "NEW! NOW TASTIER!!" kinds of food is to
> > tempt you to eat whether you're hungry or not.
> >
>
> Again, thanks for helping me prove my point about how funny the concept
> is. The desire to eat would exist with or with out a food industry.
>
> J
>
>
> --
> Sometimes I think my brain has a mind of its own.
>
> Remove the X to email me.
>
>