It is amazing the types of posts and replies I received in answer to my
comments, the majority of which from the bottle-feeders and the majority of
which taken slightly out of context.

The thing is that while those who posted in reply to mine took the point of
view that BF'ers are against bottle-feeders, almost no one, except for
Josie and Sue, responded to the main point of my post, which was whether or
not doctors should be more pro-active in encouraging BF'ing. And even when
they did respond to that point, they did it from the point of view that
they have the right to bottle-feed, not from the point of view of what was
right for the baby.

I'm still amazed at how much bottle-feeding is the norm, even when faced
with the benefits of breastfeeding.

I guess we are still far away from a world where breastfeeding will be the
norm and bottle-feeding will be for those who truly can't breastfeed,
whether it be because of a low supply, the baby's inability to get to the
milk or the logistic of work and breastfeeding (ye, that is, unfortunately,
a point to consider, especially in those areas where there is, per se, no
maternity leave).

Furthermore, I would like to re-iterate that I DON'T judge those who opt to
bottle-feed, even though I don't understand it.

--
Danielle,
Maman to Marc-Andre - May 22, 1991 and Genevieve - Dec. 18, 1995 and
recently weaned
Writing from Canada
Visit my new web-page, view new pics of the kids, and, please, sign my
guest-book!! http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/home.html
My ICQ # is 6463692
Canadian Special Education Chat Room -
http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/canspec.html
&canspec ICQ # 33710657

Danielle,

I give up - you really don't get it, do you???

This is *not* a health issue. It never has been. I'm not even sure it's
really a cultural issue.

Pure and simple, it's an ****ECONOMIC**** issue.

We live in a two-income society. Women work. This is not the 1950s
anymore.

The MAJORITY of women do not work for progressive companies. 80% of the
businesses today are SMALL businesses, with no means for onsite day
care, or flexible work schedules.

Breastfeeding is inconvenient and unrealistic for today's working mom.
I believe it comes down to weighing the advantages/disadvantages, and
when you have to go back to work after 6 weeks or so, breastfeeding's
disadvantages really do tip the scale in favor of bottle feeding.

Who in their right mind would put up with the pain and stress of trying
to breastfeed for even one week, if they knew they were going to
transition over to a bottle anyway?

jen

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wyn <shinypennyNOshS...@webtv.net.invalid> wrote in article
<08335b66.03b45...@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com>...

Jen, it IS an health issue: breastmilk is healthier than formula. Formula
was engineered as a breastmilk replacement. Formula companies are forever
trying to mimick breastmilk in their product, but they haven't succeeded.

For one thing, the components of breastmilk constantly change, in response
to baby's needs, even DURING a feeding. In the winter, when it's cold, it
contains more fat, in the Summer, when it's hot, it contains more water,
the hind milk is different from the fore milk, the milk produced in the
early days, colostrum, is then replaced by a milk containing nutrients for
an older baby and the milk produced for a toddler is in no way comparable
to the milk produced for an infant!!! There is NO WAY that formula could
adapt in this matter!!!

Breast milk is free. Formula is so expensive that, around here, bottle
feeding mothers are putting 3 months old on cow's milk!!! How's THAT for
economics?

It's been demonstrated that it is possible to work AND nurse. Even if you
don't, nursing for the first few weeks would still be a possibility!!!

Even when you have to back to work after 6 weeks, you can still breastfeed
for a month or so!!

I know many women who give up breastfeeding after 2 weeks!!!

--
Danielle,
Maman to Marc-Andre - May 22, 1991 and Genevieve - Dec. 18, 1995 and
recently weaned
Writing from Canada
Visit my new web-page, view new pics of the kids, and, please, sign my
guest-book!! http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/home.html
My ICQ # is 6463692
Canadian Special Education Chat Room -
http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/canspec.html
&canspec ICQ # 33710657

In article <01bf637d$03424600$5dd8e28e@DanielleChenier>, "D.Chenier"

I'd like to go on record right now as saying that I DO think that that doctors
ought to promote BFing. ALL mine did.......I just would prefer that they not go
so far in the direction of BFing that they make their patients feel the way my
doctors made me feel. I think that your very last sentence says it all really.
That you can post that sentence without even understanding just how rotten it
would make mothers like myself actually feel says even more. The fact is that I
DO have a right to bottle-feed..........WITHOUT being made to feel that I am
not making the `RIGHT` choice for my baby. In my opinion.........what is right
for me and MY baby.......IS what's right. Take a good, long, hard look at your
very last sentence. Picture it reversed.......and imagine how you would feel.
Any way that you want to cut it, Danielle...........you BF'ers get to sit back
and bask in the supposed knowledge that you've done what's `right`.......while
we bottle-feeders get to sit back and be made to feel guilty as hell.

Josie

Hey Danielle, this is almost getting comical - I feel like we're
playing "point-counterpoint"! ;-)

Let's just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

jen

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Okay, some thoughts that I have been pondering since the bf- ff and
Ferberize or not to Ferberize issues have come up, this is long I know, read
a line or two a day,he-he. :)

Danielle, I understand where you are coming from. You are trying to "change
the world" and the world is not ready to be told what they have to do. It
probably comes down to rebellion in some, I am not going to do it because
"they" say I have to attitude.

I have done both. I have bottle-fed two, breast-fed one for a month. Between
the two, I will take bottle feeding over and over because that is what I
prefer. May be I will start out with bf,  maybe I won't. When my children
have children and provided I can still have a memory at that time, I will
tell them the benefits of bf. You stated something about my children having
children, so that's what I assume you meant. That's taking on a pro-bf
attitude. If they don't want to, that is still there decision and I will
support them. As for the doctors, I don't know, maybe that is an issue you
would like to pursue. As for me, I think that putting some time into a
pregnancy shelter and teaching teenagers to be good parents would be better
served by you or how about a Lactation Consultant, there you go Danielle,
and I mean this nicely because you want so bad to help and your probably
very good at it.

It is still up to the parents, and I agree with everyone who has said that
we need to support one another, because this is lonely. I have stayed home 7
years now. I have worked on and off, but only with the help of my mom. Now
she is gone and I work at home. Other than seeing a few  parents here and
there at school, and talking with my family a little here and there, I don't
talk to anyone. This newsgroup and a handful of friends and hubby of course,
but he works too, this is it. So lets support each other.

Okay, a little more.

Quickly, Ferberize not to Ferberize.  I have never read his books or seen
too much of him on TV. My firstborn was probably a year at this point and
due to many health problems, did not know how to fall asleep on her own. She
did not want to sleep with us, but she was the type of child that really did
better when she could cry for a few minutes and go to sleep. She was still
taking a bottle to bed, again  many health issues here at stake. I had to
break some habits because she was one year old. Dr.  Ferber was on Oprah one
day and heard a brief stent on how to get them to sleep on their own. I had
to modify what he said to do, and that is the point that I am trying to
make, I took his advice and I modified it to my family's needs and it
worked. She needed to cry it out so she could relax and in five grueling
days, of no sleep because I was right there outside her door watching to
make sure she was not too upset, but she really would just go to sleep and
really was a more pleasant baby to be around.  The other two children, I
didn't have to do that persay, but they did sleep in their own beds and when
they were not an infant they went to bed awake. So, why get so nasty. Ferber
and all of the other educated people are no different than our own mothers
telling us their opinion how to raise children. Everyone does it different
and for the most part, it sounds like we are doing a pretty good job. Some
of you are pretty uptight. I am not, I am more laid back and I am trying
very hard to understand my children's personality and trying to adapt to
that. Okay, sorry that is enough.  My 2 cents take for what it is worth.

Sue B.

In article <20000120162815.02609.00000...@nso-fa.aol.com>,
dieuvousga...@aol.com (Josephea L. Payne) wrote:

But you can't reverse Danielle's last sentence. No one can legitimately
argue that they have a right to breastfeed, even if it's not quite as
good as bottle feeding, and that they shouldn't feel guilty about it.
That's what breastfeeding is for, and it will always be best except in
some select cases. If you truly feel that you have done the best for
your baby and that there is really no difference between breast and
bottle, then you shouldn't feel guilty about it, should you? Of course,
you also have the right to start the baby right out on watered-down
milk if you wish, although I doubt many people would argue that it's
best.

I agree with Danielle: it's unfortunate that so many women don't even
try. I just listened to a new mother explain how they had been trying
one formula after another because their daughter had so many digestive
problems. She was laughing because the most expensive formula seemed to
agree with her daughter the best. Obviously nursing, even for a month,
hadn't even occurred to her (and no, I didn't criticize; it seems as
though hardly any of these young women breastfeed at all.)

Lynne

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And where does it stop, anyway... there are a whole lot of things that
could be considered health hazards that parents could be called
accountable for, with this line of thinking:

- circumcision

- a high fat/low fiber diet of red meat and Wonder bread

- radon in your house

- lead paint on your walls (huge issue for children under age 4....
have you had your house tested?)

- having a child even though you've got a genetic history for certain
disorders/diseases

- drugging a child with Ritalin instead of trying therapy or
homeschooling first ;-)

Get the picture? ***LIFE**** is risky. We do our best to balance out
the risks by making choices, trade-offs and reasoned decisions
according to our individual comfort levels.

Yes, breastfeeding is healthier. But I personally think that decades of
bottle-fed babies have proven that you CAN raise a perfectly healthy
and happy child on formula. It's been proven and time-tested. The
advantages are not significant enough to warrant massive legislation.

Frankly, if you're really concerned about your child's health, I'd be
more worried about lead paint than bottle-feeding. Now THERE's a health
issue for you.... how dare these parents choose to live in a pre '60s
house, knowing the risk of lead paint leading to stunted intellectual
growth??? (just kidding... although it is a very serious and real
health issue, with much more potential damage than, say,
bottlefeeding.).  I hope you all have had your children lead-tested!

jen

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In article <08335b66.03b45...@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com>, wyn

I know that this was case for me. I have worked at many restaurants in 15
years.......but only at one that was a chain one. All the others were
independently owned and operated.........with no time for people with `issues`,
such as BFing, or anything else of a personal nature. Not to say that my
managers/owners were not supportive or sympathetic........it's just that they
had a business to run........and had better things to do than worry about each
employee's personal choices and problems.

Josie

On 20 Jan 2000 19:31:59 GMT, "D.Chenier" <danielle.chen...@pwgsc.gc.ca> wrote:
:The thing is that while those who posted in reply to mine took the point of
:view that BF'ers are against bottle-feeders, almost no one, except for
:Josie and Sue, responded to the main point of my post, which was whether or
:not doctors should be more pro-active in encouraging BF'ing. And even when
:they did respond to that point, they did it from the point of view that
:they have the right to bottle-feed, not from the point of view of what was
:right for the baby.

FWIW, the hospital where our babies were born is very pro-breastfeeding.  The
routine there is to send a lactation specialist in within hours after delivery
to get the breastfeeding process started.  

Their attitude gave me the impression that all hospitals do this.  I guess
that's incorrect.

        - Seth Jackson

Get "Speak Up!", the new CD by Loudspeaker including the Top Ten hit "Leave Me Alone" at http://www.mp3.com/loudspeaker.

On 20 Jan 2000 21:00:09 GMT, "D.Chenier" <danielle.chen...@pwgsc.gc.ca> wrote:

:Even when you have to back to work after 6 weeks, you can still breastfeed
:for a month or so!!

Question: is there any health benefit to breastfeeding for 6 weeks before
switching to formula?  What about other time intervals, such as 3 months or 6
months? More generally, is there a minimum amount of time for breatfeeding
before the babies will realize a health benefit?  

In our case, we had twins, and although my wife and I had every intention of
breastfeeding, she could not physically handle breastfeeding two babies.  We
made a practical decision to feed each baby 50% breast milk and 50% formula for
3 months until my wife went back to work.  Now, the babies are getting about
30-40% of their feeding via breast milk.

I'm wondering how much benefit our babies are getting from this, and if there's
a significant health benefit in continuing this limited breastfeeding for 6
months or beyond.  

        - Seth Jackson

Get "Speak Up!", the new CD by Loudspeaker including the Top Ten hit "Leave Me Alone" at http://www.mp3.com/loudspeaker.

In article <c58f8s4h7ia3hssvpci00m22g7hodqa...@4ax.com>, Seth Jackson

there are fatty acids not available in formula that contribute to brain
develo-pment -- so partial or short term bf while not ideal -- is good for
babies.  Many women can bf even after going to work if they supplement
with
formula during the day [others of course can manage  pumping -- but it doesn;'t
work for everyone]  Your twins are better off with some mother's milk with
its antibodies and brain enhancing nutrition.  And since twins are more
vulnerable to early death and illness -- it is especially important for
them.

Sue,

I'm sorry to hear you feel so isolated. I had a hard time with that
myself when I was a SAHM (for five years). I knew I was doing what I
wanted to do, but still it was rough.... I like people, and daily
contact. We're all social creatures, but unfortunately modern society
just doesn't seem to be designed for the SAHP. I wish it were different.

Thanks for your post.

jen

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In article <20000120181012.01549.00000...@nso-fj.aol.com>,
dieuvousga...@aol.com (Josephea L. Payne) wrote:

What may seem like an uncaring attitude is actually probably more
complex than you think.

When I got pregnant with my first, I was working in a 40-member
company, and was the first and only professional woman. When I
announced I would not be returning, the owner confided in me his
frustration about being scared to hire women of childbearing age. He
was an honest, caring, pro-family, and religious man - he gave me 3
months PAID leave even though he didn't have to by state law - he was
also a very consciencious business man. He explained he just couldn't
afford to hire, train, pay out leave, only to have the employee resign
for motherhood. I can't say I blame him in this. He had 40 other people
he had to worry about - if the company was financially strapped due to
his generosity, everyone would suffer.

I proposed a plan to open an onsite daycare - we had the space, and he
was very willing to do this and even offered to hire a full-time
caregiver. It seemed like the ideal solution. But when we explored it
farther, the deal got killed due to exorbitant liability insurance.

jen

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Josie,

Most of us have said that our doctors DID promote breastfeeding.  She just
doesn't want to hear it because it doesn't fit with her agenda.

Marion-----Tampamom to Louis(6) and Erica(2)
"Keep your chin up...it gives the rest of your body a better chance at
fighting gravity"

<20000120162815.02609.00000...@nso-fa.aol.com>...

Actually the 50's was where formula started to take off, wasn't it?

In SOME cases. I went back to school full time and managed to still nurse my
daughter. No i didn't pump. I managed.

Call me crazy.

Tell that to the State of California.  We had to have the issue actually go to
court to confirm that women have the right to breastfeed in public.

Perhaps "put yourself in my shoes" would have been better.

Do you know for sure that she didn't want to even try?

I didn't get involved with the more recent thread so I don't know the comments
that were made, etc.   I take comments about bottle feeding personally at times
because most of the time pro-bfd'ing people don't acknowledge that there are
bottle feeders out there, or reading their posts, who physically can't bfd.
Those who feel there wasn't a choice will take offense, etc at such posts.
(and then there are those who will tell us that we just didn't know what we
were doing and refuse to listen) This isn't directed at Danielle, the original
poster in this thread.  This has just been my experience on Usenet in the past
two years.

That said, Breastfeeding *is* a health issue.  I hate seeing a formula
commercial the way they are portrayed now.  What they *should* do is promote
formula as a last resort when mom has physical problems with breastfeeding. (as
opposed to their vague 'Breast is Best, but....')  In bottle commercials it
would be nice to see a breast pump in the background.

I didn't have to be at work after having my daughter but I did work.  Even
though I wasn't punching someone else's clock (I owned the time clock)  I
didn't stay home.  I tried like hell to bfd and that included supplementing at
the breast  every other feeding with a plastic syringe and pumping every chance
I got and took herbs.  It's not difficult to hide under a blanket.  I pumped in
the car, at the restaurant, next to the lake, behind the counter at work, etc.
With my son we used the supplemental thing that hangs around your neck.  

I know I'll get flamed to hell and back for this, but breastfeeding should be
the first consideration.  If I could do what I did to stretch what little milk
I had to 3 months of breastfeeding, then I don't see how someone who has a full
supply couldn't at the very least, pump under a blanket and the public opinion
be damned.  

AND.....  never assume that someone you know nothing about is bottle feeding by
choice.

(off my box, fire away)

Kendra
~*~
Y2 KINGS!
Bench Mob Rules.

In article <vs7f8sg8ufho96k9so8it0fgkjbja60...@4ax.com>, Seth Jackson

I don't think it's incorrect for everywhere. I know that the hospitals I gave
birth at had them coming into each mom's room to help

In article <00844d40.1761f...@usw-ex0102-010.remarq.com>, Lynne Murnane

Yes, you can reverse the last sentence. I was referring to the part about
what's `right` for baby. In my opinion...if Mommy is miserable because she is
breastfeeding for WHATEVER reason, or if she just chooses not to for her own
reasons.................then it's not right for her baby. Besides, as I
said.....there was a time in this country when ALL the doctors thought and
believed that bottle-feeding WAS the ONLY way, the best way, the right way. I'm
sure that many mommies of that day felt like saying and arguing that it was
their `right` to breastfeed. And by the way.......I do NOT feel guilty about
bottle-feeding my children. I merely resent GREATLY the attempt to make me feel
so.

Josie

Both hospitals I went to (separate states) not only had a LC come into
the room, they also held 3-night classes in BFing as part of birth
preparation. After discharge, each new mom got the phone number of an
LC they could call, any hour round the clock (I took advantage of that).

I remember, too, that in the hospital the nurses made a point of asking
you whether you wanted to feed on demand, so they would bring the
infant in when it cried during the night, or not - in which case they
gave a bottle and let you sleep.

jen

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The hospital where my 2nd was born had an LC right there in the delivery
room, insisting that you must BF immediatly after birth since it will help
reduce your utures faster.  I told her to buzz off--I have an "ineffective
uturine contractions"  and labor had gone on for 6 days--I new she didn't
need food at that time and had no energy or desire to BF at that time.  I
got a lecture.

I also got a lecture about bonding when I told them I wanted her cleaned up
before I saw her and demanded that she be removed from my abdomen
immediately after birth.

Lesa

In article <20000120213007.07140.00000...@ng-ch1.aol.com>,

Yes, I do, by the way, and I have also heard plenty of young women just
discussing formula when they are pregnant, just as they compare prices
for disposables (I did cloth) -- it is quite obvious that breastfeeding
is out of the question. I also know plenty of people who say
breastfeeding is disgusting and that they would be appalled if their
daughter tried it.

Hey, people need to do what they need to do, but believe me, there are
plenty of women who will not even consider breastfeeding (and no, I
don't think it makes them bad mothers or that they are evil, just that
bf is preferable, and I wish family situations were more geared to
women staying home for awhile so they can enjoy their babies instead of
returning to work immediately). I can and do make general comments
about people, but the above refer to people I actually know.

Lynne

Lynne

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In article <20000121003600.02746.00000...@nso-fp.aol.com>,
dieuvousga...@aol.com (Josephea L. Payne) wrote:

 You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I made the
comment about guilt because you brought it up; when I do something I
really feel strongly about (like not having television) I don't feel
anything about other people's opinions. I don't resent them telling me
about all the good stuff that's on television; I just really don't care
what they do (I don't mean that I don't care about them as people, just
that they can do as they please). And I do realize that deflecting
other people's opinions on some things doesn't necessarily make me
right, but I certainly don't take it as trying to make me feel guilty.

Lynne

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Seth Jackson <hitmeis...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<c58f8s4h7ia3hssvpci00m22g7hodqa...@4ax.com>...

Answer: YES, YES, YES. Every feed of breast milk that you give is
beneficial, especially in the initial weeks, where the breastmilk contains
all those antibodies to help the newborn survive life out of the womb.

  What about other time intervals, such as 3 months or 6

As far as I know there is no minimum or maximum of time for breastfeeding,
because every feeding counts. The longer you breastfeed, the more
beneficial, because the more likely the baby will be equipped to fight off
infections. Furthermore, the baby's digestive system also matures
gradually, therefore, the closer you are to the end of the first 6 months
or, preferably, of the first year, before you introduce either formula or
cow's milk, the more likely the baby will be able to digest it.

That's an excellent decision and your babies are benefitting from it.

By the time I returned to work, my daughter was 6 months and she continued
to breastfeed until she was 3.5 yo. From the time I returned to work, she
was receiving a mix of breastmilk, solids and formula/cow's milk. Even
then, she was a whole lot more likely to not get all those little germies
her older brother took home from school, and, when she did, she was whole
lot more likely to recover quickly.

If your wife can handle it, you can be sure the babies are benefitting from
it.

--
Danielle,
Maman to Marc-Andre - May 22, 1991 and Genevieve - Dec. 18, 1995 and
recently weaned
Writing from Canada
Visit my new web-page, view new pics of the kids, and, please, sign my
guest-book!! http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/home.html
My ICQ # is 6463692
Canadian Special Education Chat Room -
http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/canspec.html
&canspec ICQ # 33710657

Seth Jackson <hitmeis...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<vs7f8sg8ufho96k9so8it0fgkjbja60...@4ax.com>...

You were very lucky. Where my kids were born, the hospital staff still
assumes that a breastfeeding mother wants to rest at night, and will give
bottles without even asking the mom. MOM has to tell them not to give
bottles. And they still give pacifiers. And they still do not have the
services of lactation consultants. One of the things that lead to
breastfeeding failure when my son was born was that I was instructed by the
nursery staff to nurse for 20 minutes on one side and 10 minutes on the
other side. Later on, much later on, I found that breaking the latch in
this way may lead to improper latch. It is much better to let baby set the
pace and let him/her nurse for as long as they want before switching sides.

Unfortunately, you were incorrect.

--
Danielle,
Maman to Marc-Andre - May 22, 1991 and Genevieve - Dec. 18, 1995 and
recently weaned
Writing from Canada
Visit my new web-page, view new pics of the kids, and, please, sign my
guest-book!! http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/home.html
My ICQ # is 6463692
Canadian Special Education Chat Room -
http://members.tripod.com/~dchenier/canspec.html
&canspec ICQ # 33710657