The Pleiadian Transcripts
Don_-_...@cup.portal.com
Barbra Marcinack. They have been coming through for over three years and
are mainly on cassette tapes. A friend of mine went to the trouble of
transcribing two evening worth of tapes. The transcripts present an
entirely new concept of god(s) and of humans. I have found them to be
inspiring and uplifting. (Thought provoking:-)) to say the least. For me
they have given answers to many, many areas I could not find answers before.
I offered to send them email to folks about four months ago and 35 net
folks requested them. So now that we have our new fall crop of net folks
I am again making the offer. They consist of six 30k files and a tape list.
I highly recommend that people who are religious do not ask for them as they
do not speak favorably towards religion.
The Pleiadians say they are here to inspire us to the highest degree possible
so we will wake up and start creating our own reality by doing this we will
change our future and thereby change their reality.
Don Showen
Don_-_...@cup.portal.com
In answer to my post above I received the following questions email that I
thought I would post my answers to.
>1. What time period in our future are they from?
They say they come from what we would call our future. They say some are from
1 million years, some from 500,000 years, some from a few hundred years in
what we would call our future. Now I interpret that to mean maybe we as
humans do not have a complete perspective on time. I think they could actually
be a aspect of ourselves that is out of time ie. not in time as we think of it
in the 3D reality we live in.
>2. Do they exist now in our current time? By this I mean, are they created in
the future and travel backwards or could we find some of their ancestors on
Earth today?
One metaphysical theory is that all time is simultaneous. They say there are
earth humans who continually reincarnate on this planet and that there is the
family of light who have come from the future to change this planet. The
family of light has a holographically inserted past so they believe they have
a past. I think that is why some like myself feel a real connection to the
Pleiadians, while others think it is a bunch of bull. They often admit they
are here to trick us, just as they have teachers who trick them. By trick I
think they mean talk us out of our limiting beliefs about reality. For
instance the religious concept of god is a good example. They say god(s) are
much like going into a restaurant and ordering from a menu. That there are
numerous quote gods. And unfortunately they are not all to be trusted. They
use the concept of first cause and say that everything is derived or a spark
from first cause even the gods. Now the problem is there are many who have
forgotten their connection to first cause, even gods. And from my observation
the primary purpose of religion is to convince individuals to forget their
connection and empowerment from first cause and turn it over to an entity
(god).
>3. What are they ? eg. humans, apes or replites after x years of evolution.
This brings up the idea that if it is not physical it does not exist, ie no
body, no credibility. If there is one thing I would like to get across to
people. It is that entities do exist in the non physical as energy. And they
can be intelligent. In fact we each have non physical aspects of ourselves.
One aspect survives death and reincarnates. I have observed this by assisting
individuals to remember their past lives and as importantly to remember the
time after a body died between lives. In all of the over 500 people I have
worked with that remembered a past life they also related information that was
between lives, when they were not in a body. So to me it makes a lot of since
that intelligent entities can exist who are not currently in a body. As you
will see from the transcript we are not evolved, we as humans were created
fully evolved and some entities(gods) scrambled our DNA so we are actually
using only 1/6 of our DNA the other 5/6 is idle. Hence the observation that we
only use 1/10 of our brain. I feel that the exciting thing about the Pleiadian
teachings is that we can fully activate our brain (DNA) and that we can do it
in this lifetime. I think that the reason that our brain is 90% water is that
it is mainly electromagnetic (water holds a charge). The electromagnetic part
holds a template of what we think reality is. Being electrical is is possible
to change it fairly easily if we choose to do so. But that does involve
examining some of our most sacred beliefs. And unfortunately most people would
rather die than change their beliefs. Included in the concept of sacred
beliefs is facts, as I have said in a past posting facts are nothing but
petrified beliefs.
>4. Why do they want us to change the present ? Is it to their benefit or
ours?
Both! By changing our present they mean, taking back our power, our
sovereignty, our connection to and empowerment from first cause. Now that is
tremendously exciting. Because what they are saying is that we are each
empowered by the same first cause energy that everything else is empowered by.
Meaning we do and can create any reality we want to with exactly the same
energy and power first cause uses in creating all that is. We are literally
gods in bodies, nothing less, except what we believe ourselves down to be. So
the Pleiadians say there is a probable future that has tyranny in it. Which
noticing our current reality is not to hard to believe. I have noticed quite a
bit of tyranny currently on this planet. :-) (To say the least). So it makes
sense that it is going to continue into the future unless something is done
about it. The truly exciting thing is that all each of us need to do is wake
up to who we are, stop giving our power away and start creating the reality we
want as sovereign entities. An affirmation or tip that the Pleiadians give is
to repeat the following In joy, saftey, harmony and sexuality I step into the
unknown.
Don Showen
PS I have had at least 12 requests for the transcripts bounce. Now I am not
sure whether it is an email problem, my lack of understanding of email, or
cranks sending me bad addresses. So if you have not received the transcripts
try again. From now on before sending the seven files that may bounce back, I
will send a confirmation email that you will have to acknowledge before I send
the seven files. DS
Spellweaver
a physical body, et cetera, was very nice and informative, but it didn't
answer the question. I would assume from your answer that they are beings
of energy, but I hate to make assumptions on tricky subjects. So, please
re-answer.
Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano
Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly
willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence.
However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be
satisfactory proof.
I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
for me.
In a system of logic, one is required to evaluate a statement of
number theory as True or False. (For example, 1+1=2 is True within the
standard math we're all taught, but one can easily prove the statement 2+2=5
to be demonstrably False within this system.)
Now, there are some statements of number theory that, as of yet, we
have not been able to prove to be either True or False. Such if fermat's Last
Theorem.
Essentially, the statement is this: For integers x,y, and z, there
exists no solution for the following equation if n > 2.
The equation is (x^n) + (y^n) = (z^n).
For example, if n=2, we can find whole numbers for x,y and z that mke
a true statement of number theory, as follows:
(3^2) + (4^2) = (5^2)
9 + 16 = 25
But, if n is gREATER than two, there are apparently no whole numbers
we can plug into x,y or z that make the equation true.
The problem is this; there's no existing proof for this. There may be
integers we haven't tried yet that make the equation work. But we can't
disprove that statement above either.
My question is this: Can the Pleiadians either prove or disprove
that, for integers x,y and z, there exists no soluton for the equation
(x^n)+(y^n)=(z^n) where n>2?
If they can provide a proof, they would be providing us with
knowledge currently unknown by man... but knowledge that _can_ be verified
empirically. And I'd be surprised if a higher intelligence could lower itself
to perform symbolic logic.
Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.)
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
re...@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Renato Ghica
|>
|> Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly
|> willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence.
|> However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be
|> satisfactory proof.
|>
|> I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
|> for me.
|>
|>
|> Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.)
|>
I'd be happy with any S&P 500 quote between tomorrow and the year 2000
(assuming that the math problem is not solved in the future).
:-)
-rg
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
- No disclaimer necessary - No claim made.
Renato Ghica
Bruce Barr
I am interested in the transcripts.
if you have problems with a return to this message (it should be forwarded
to my regular mail box.) try the address included below.
Sorry to waste bandwidth everyone, e-mail just bounces.
Thanks,
BB
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Don_-_...@cup.portal.com
> Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly
>willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence.
>However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be
>satisfactory proof.
> I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
>for me.
> ... more stating the problem
> If they can provide a proof, they would be providing us with
>knowledge currently unknown by man... but knowledge that _can_ be verified
>empirically. And I'd be surprised if a higher intelligence could lower itself
>to perform symbolic logic.
>Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.)
First neither I nor them are looking for converts. Converts give their power
away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution
to that problem? Would you be willing to believe that you come from higher
intelligence? Would you let yourself prove it by accessing your higher
intelligence and solving the problem if you believe there is a solution? This
is the whole point of bringing all of this up. It is basically that we all
can be channels of higher intelligence in whatever area we wish (intend) to. I
feel that there are lots of individuals on this net that are closing their
connection to higher intelligence by limiting beliefs they hold about
themselves and reality. What if you proved that you were connected to
infinite intelligence, first cause, prime creator and you could use that in
whatever way you wanted? So Brian if you believe there is a solution why
don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to
tell you the solution. Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and
hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out. And if you
did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel. The
higher intelligences give away information freely. One other pointer, Tesla
used to hyperventilate to improve his powers of visualization. He would
design, build, and run a motor for a period of time, dismantel it and see
where the parts were worn, all in his head. He actually acknowledged the
assistance he was getting from higher intelligence.
Don Showen
Don_-_...@cup.portal.com
>1. How do Alien beings from another world (another time,place) know of
>english words like "Shenanigans", "busters", and other slang terms when it
>usually takes several years for a foreign person to just 'grasp' the language
>much less learn the 'slang' terms for it? (I don't think just using Barbara's
>mind to do 'automatic' translations could do it, but I am open to any
>explanations.
They do seem to perceive a lot through Barbra's perceptions and mind and the
minds whose energy they read. They also mentioned they wanted Barbara to learn
some math mainly in the area of geometry as they have often mentioned the
language of light or sacred geometry. And I suspect that if Barbara would
learn some geometry that they could go into more detail. I worked with another
channel who could bring through entities of choice. She brought through
Tesla and Einstein, they both commented that she ( the channel) would have to
learn some technical vocabulary before they could go into the juicy technical
stuff. Now this is one of my personal motives for putting all of this on the net.
Instead of teaching a none technical person technical stuff, why not encourage
technical people to channel.
>2. On a more curious level, the transcripts talk about dracos, lizzies, etc.
>Is there anything that elaborates on this?
By anything that elaborates on this, I am not sure whether you mean from the
Pleiadians or else where. Unfortunately most of the UFO information is on
these areas. What I call the negative aspects of alien intelligence. There
are lots of hair raising stories about the dracos, lizzies, greys, etc. Lots
of those at the talk that the transcript came from were friends of mine, we
are into understanding the whole picture. The lizzies are short for
reptilians. There is a reptilian portion of our brain stem (primal brain). The
reptiles think they own the planet, I think it is because they were here as
dinosaurs for so long. Anyway it is fairly common knowledge that we are being
prepared as a culture to be introduced to the lizzies. That is part of the
purpose of the series V, the Ninja turtles, a lot of cartoons, movies, etc. It
is said the the lizzies and/or greys have had treaties with governments and
that soon they will make themselves known, openly. One reason for the govt.
cover up of ufos is that part of the treaty is that the govt. will not expose
them. There is much ufo literature on the lizzies, dracos, greys. I guess
the most important point is that they are highly intelligent with no feeling
center. And they thrive on the emotion of fear, it is actually a food for
them. So being afraid of lizzies is actually feeding them. They are said to
be behind religion, thus the term the fear of god , ie religions were created
so humans would resonate in fear to provide food for their god. Not all
lizzies are bad in fact the Pleiadians mentioned there were three in non
physical form at one of their evenings on the tapes. They were attending to
learn about us humans. They even mention that we have a multidimensional
aspect of ourselves that is lizzie and we will have to come to gripes with as
we go for full enlightenment and integration. There is lots of folklore about
lizzies like the snake that tempted eve. The Pleiadians do not use the term
good and bad, they instead refer to the white shirts and the black shirts.
They further say that earth was created to be a galactic information exchange
for all life. So maybe the bar scene in Star Wars is really how our planet
will be in the future. We thought we had interracial problems, just wait to
see what kind of interspecie problems we are going to have.
Don Showen
Ken Arromdee
>> I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
>>for me.
>away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution
>to that problem?
Mathematicians are certainly trying to find one.
>So Brian if you believe there is a solution why
>don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to
>tell you the solution. Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and
>hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out. And if you
>did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel.
Because there is a difference between a math problem like Fermat's Last Theorem
and the type of information you claim the Pleiadeans give.
If I only believe I am channelling an entity but it's not really there, I can
still talk about lizards, give the names of the nonexistent entities, and
lots of other things. I can pick at vague thoughts that seem to come from
aliens, and "realize" what they "mean" when in fact everything is coming from
my own mind. But I _can't_ do this if it's a math problem. You can't give
a solution to such a problem without actually being able to solve it. If I
just thought I was channeling aliens and everything really came from my own
head, I'd be able to tell you as much as I wanted about the aliens and their
plans, while the "aliens" couldn't solve math problems.
I think most people, even on alt.paranormal, don't believe in your Pleideans.
But this is important other times: whenever there's some paranormal event where
some effects can be attributed to just people and some can't, it seems only
the former effects happen. Yeah, it's always _possible_ that the effects you
are unwilling/unable to create just _happen_ to be the same events that you
can't get in a non-paranormal way, but you can't really blame me for being
skeptical....
--
"Halvah? What kind of fish is that?" --grocer, to my grandfather, many
years ago....
Kenneth Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm;
INTERNET: arro...@cs.jhu.edu)
Scott Drellishak
>
>> Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly
>>willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence.
>>However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be
>>satisfactory proof.
>> I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
>>for me.
>> ... more stating the problem
Which "problem" was Fermat's Conjecture, a famous unproved theorem in
mathematics, which Don apparently didn't recognize. Brian isn't asking
you to do his homework here, Don, he's asking you to provide proof
that the Pleiadians know something we don't.
>> If they can provide a proof, they would be providing us with
>>knowledge currently unknown by man... but knowledge that _can_ be verified
>>empirically. And I'd be surprised if a higher intelligence could lower
>>itself to perform symbolic logic.
>>Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.)
>
>First neither I nor them are looking for converts. Converts give their power
>away to their converter.
No, actually a convert is someone who changes his/her mind. Brian,
being open-minded, was willing to accept the existence of these
Pleiadians if they could provide proof that they were, in fact
inhabiting the body of a human. Surely such advanced beings did not
reach their pinnacle of knowledge by listening to everyone. They
admit (I've read the transcripts all the way through -- scary thought,
huh?) that there are evil forces in the world, so obviously some
statements are lies. Suppose the beings that claim to be our
benefactors are in fact lying? Suppose the woman who claims to be
channelling them is lying? Clearly, we must resolve these doubts.
Brian's challenge should be childishly simple for the Pleiadians to
meet ... and yet they don't. I wonder why?
> So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution
>to that problem? Would you be willing to believe that you come from higher
>intelligence? Would you let yourself prove it by accessing your higher
>intelligence and solving the problem if you believe there is a solution? This
>is the whole point of bringing all of this up. It is basically that we all
>can be channels of higher intelligence in whatever area we wish (intend) to. I
>feel that there are lots of individuals on this net that are closing their
>connection to higher intelligence by limiting beliefs they hold about
>themselves and reality. What if you proved that you were connected to
>infinite intelligence, first cause, prime creator and you could use that in
>whatever way you wanted? So Brian if you believe there is a solution why
>don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to
>tell you the solution. Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and
>hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out. And if you
>did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel. The
>higher intelligences give away information freely.
I just relaxed and tried to listen to the "higher" intelligences, but
I heard nothing. What does this mean, Don? Did I not listen
carefully enough?
Clearly, I'm not skilled in this matter. Don, would you do all of us
who are interested in furthering humanity's knowledge and improving
out lives try it for us? Since you are more experienced in listening
to voices in your head, I assume that you can produce the proof that
Brian requested. Thank you.
> One other pointer, Tesla
>used to hyperventilate to improve his powers of visualization. He would
>design, build, and run a motor for a period of time, dismantel it and see
>where the parts were worn, all in his head. He actually acknowledged the
>assistance he was getting from higher intelligence.
>
>Don Showen
[FLAMES]
When I'm reading the Pleiadian Transcripts, or Don's postings, I like
to do this, and you can do it with me. Clench your teeth (not too
tightly) and open your mouth. Between your thumb and forefinger
(pinching horizontally), grab the flesh of your cheek about halfway
between the corner of your mouth and the muscle which closes your jaw.
Now, with a frequecy of about 5 Hertz, pull the flesh of your cheek
away from your teeth, and push it back. This is the sound of a
bonehead newage-rhymes-with-sewage dupe engaging in intellectual
masturbation. Thank you for your attention.
Flames by email, please.
Scott Drellishak, SFOP
Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano
> First neither I nor them are looking for converts. Converts give their
power
> away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a
solution
> to that problem? Would you be willing to believe that you come from higher
> intelligence? Would you let yourself prove it by accessing your higher
> intelligence and solving the problem if you believe there is a solution?
Thi
blah, blah blah, blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah
> So Brian if you believe there is a solution why
> don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to
> tell you the solution. Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and
> hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out. And if you
> did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel. The
> higher intelligences give away information freely.
Don, you're avoiding my question.
First of all, you posted that Pleiaidian stuff for the express
purpose of cinvincingsome of us that these 'higher intelligences' are out
there, and your friend is in contact with them. Regardless of your reply,
yes, 'converts' are more or less what you want. After all, you wouldn't have
posted the material.
All I want is proof. Why should I expend my time and energy before I
get a good reason to do so? Your friend claimed to be in contact with higher
intelligences-- before I make _any_ commitments, I'd like to see some proof
that your friend is genuine. (Either he's genuine, or deranged.)
The problem may or may not be solvable. All I want is either a
solution, or a lagically supported reason why it's not solvable. Until I get
that, the 'Plieaidian transcripts' are about as useful as line noise.
So, whaddya say? Why don't you do the autotyping and convince me, if
it's so simple? One good logical proof. (And saying "It's notsolable because
our logic/philosophy/science/minds are too limited" is a cop-out.
So there.)
Eric Ant Von Laudermann
In article <47...@cup.portal.com> Don_-_...@cup.portal.com writes:
>Steve - Graziano comments and asks
>
>>2. On a more curious level, the transcripts talk about dracos, lizzies, etc.
>>Is there anything that elaborates on this?
>
>There is a reptilian portion of our brain stem (primal brain).
NNNNnnnnnooooo..... I thought we were mammals. Or does being a "reptile"
imply something besides being cold-blooded and laying eggs?
>Anyway it is fairly common knowledge that we are being
>prepared as a culture to be introduced to the lizzies.
First I've heard of it.
>That is part of the
>purpose of the series V, the Ninja turtles, a lot of cartoons, movies, etc.
The purpose of Ninja Turtles is that two starving artists sat around doodling
one night, and ended up with a parody of "grim-n-gritty" comic books, with an
intentionally stupid-sounding title. The purpose of V was to make money.
--E.V.L. (dr...@wpi.wpi.edu) # "At last! The Pen of the Gods is mine!
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely # I have the power of the printed word, the
devastatingly true, except the bits # most powerful force in the Universe,
that are lies." --Douglas Adams # in my grasp! NOTHING CAN STOP ME NOW!!!
# Uh, anybody got a piece of paper?"
Karen Millar
>In article <47...@cup.portal.com> Don_-_...@cup.portal.com writes:
>>> I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem
>>>for me.
>>First neither I nor them are looking for converts. Converts give their power
>>away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution
>>to that problem?
>>So Brian if you believe there is a solution why
>>don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to
>>tell you the solution. Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and
>>hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out. And if you
>>did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel.
>Because there is a difference between a math problem like Fermat's Last Theorem
>and the type of information you claim the Pleiadeans give.
In my understanding, you have missed the point entirely, Brian.
You *are* yourself hooked up to something that may be referred to as
higher power, or collective unconscious, or god, (not necessarily aliens).
All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your
self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an
easy task, but it is do-able... the information you desire is free for the
taking, if you can but unlock your consciousnes, as Einstein and many
many others have done. It is getting in tune with how the universe works,
and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians
are trying to get across our thick sculls is that
IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP!
--
Love is the answer...
Communication Facilities Designer
Freelance in the Land of Enchantment Albuquerque, NM
kar...@yenta.alb.nm.us (505) 292-3445
Anthony J Stieber
> In my understanding, you have missed the point entirely, Brian.
>You *are* yourself hooked up to something that may be referred to as
>higher power, or collective unconscious, or god, (not necessarily aliens).
>All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your
>self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an
Hmm, you seem to have missed the point as well. What Brian is
interested in is also what mathmaticians have been interested in for
the past 350+ years. They haven't found the general proof to Fermat's
Last Theorem, it seems the Pleiadeans haven't either. While
mathmaticians have found many other proofs, the Pleiadeans haven't
found much of anything, except how to get some humans to think they
exist on really flimsy evidence.
Any study of general beliefs and religion of humans will reveal that
humans will beleive just about anything. The newage movement is merely
the contemporary example.
So, you imply that you are "in tune with that hp" (personally I have a
Psion not a Hewlett-Packard). Have you come up with anything that a
few hundred years of mathmatics (or any other discipline) hasn't?
If not, has anyone else? The Pleiadeans should put up or shut up.
--
<-:(= Anthony Stieber ant...@csd4.csd.uwm.edu uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony
Scott Babb
to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
of years to evolve to our current level? Perhaps living on plasma planets
is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?
--
These are solely the opinions of: Scott L. Babb - ad...@summa4.mv.com
"We didn't inherit the Earth from our parents,
we are borrowing it from our children."
sta...@verga.enet.dec.com
In article <47...@cup.portal.com>, Don_-_...@cup.portal.com writes...
>Steve - Graziano comments and asks
>
>for all life. So maybe the bar scene in Star Wars is really how our planet
>will be in the future. We thought we had interracial problems, just wait to
>see what kind of interspecie problems we are going to have.
>
>Don Showen
Sounds like great fun to me. :-) ... We'll work it out, we always do.
Mary
---
Mary Stanley
(INTERNET,UUCP) sta...@verga.enet.dec.com
(UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley
(INTERNET) stanley%verga...@decwrl.dec.com
---
Don_-_...@cup.portal.com
I want to attempt to clear up a few things. First I want to say this is a lot
of fun, I am getting a lot of laughs, making some new friends and really
enjoying sharing the Pleiadian transcripts with so many ( over 110 of you net
folks have received the transcripts).
I only get to be with Barbra and the Pleiadians once a year when they visit my
area, and I haven t asked them anything yet. Those tricky Pleiadians keep
telepathically reading my mind and answer my questions before I can verbally
ask them. The rest of my contact with them is by listening to their cassette
lectures. Another thing is that the Pleiadians are spiritual, metaphysical
teachers and I consider what they teach to be among the highest quality of
information I have encountered. I consider my spiritual growth and
development to be my highest priority, purpose. I personally would not want
the Pleiadians to waste their or my time talking about earths limited
scientific concepts. Since spirit is not provable and cannot be seen or
measured and since many of you think this is your only lifetime it is a waste
of your time to get involved in these discussions. Let s face it you are not
going to convince me that spirit does not exist and I am not going to convince
you that it does, so why don't you just put showen and pleiadians in your kill
file and let the rest of us have a discussion.
Now maybe I made a mistake bringing in another channels explanations as to why
she could not channel technical stuff, ie. the other channel, btw her name is
Carole. Now somewhere on a floppy I have transcribed what Einstein said
through Carole about why he couldn t bring through technical information
because Carole did not have a technical vocabulary. I could dig it out. But I
don t think that is really necessary because there is an excellent example of
someone who has channeled real hardware.
Nikola Tesla had over 700 patents. He is the man responsible for Alternating
Current and radio being on this planet. He freely admitted he was getting
assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence. Now Tesla did go to
college and studied engineering. In fact when he was in school he presented
his theory of alternating current and the professor spent the whole class
period putting Tesla and the theory down. Now lucky for us that Tesla was not
a Skeptic and more interested in what his peers thought than truth, or we
would be using Edisions DC power with a generating plant every few blocks. So
maybe Tesla only channeled electrical and mechnical devices and not any math,
I doubt it. The point is that maybe those of you who have a solid science
background, have it as a foundation to receive and implement new technologies
from higher intelligence. All I am saying is that there is higher
intelligence out there and maybe you can receive or are receiving it. If only
you would stop screaming and believing - if it can t be seen it does not exist.
Listen!
Don Showen
Don_-_...@cup.portal.com
>Personally, if I went into trance states and channeled "alter intelligences",
>I'd be seriously worried that I was insane, or diseased, and the first thing I
>would do is ask for some simple verification. If none is forthcoming, I'd
>submit myself for pschological/medical tests immediately, to look for presence
>of brain tumors or other disorders.
>Really Don, its highly irresponsible for you to encourage the channeller to
>continue, when this could be the manifestation of some severe mental or
>physical disease that could be treated if caught early enough. It is well
>known that various disorders manifest themselves as hearing voices, having
>vivid hallucinations, etc, all which could be mistaken as some form of
>"contact" with another intelligence, except for the fact that these contacts
>contain no factual information unknown to the reciever.
Barry I really want to express my thanks and gratitude for your confession.
You do the churches, govt., education system and AMA proud! You are
responding precisely the way they programed you. Beautiful!!!! You see
divine inspiration has always been a problem. The churches had to stop divine
inspiration because if one listens to their inner voice they will KNOW their
connection to All That Is and will not be available to follow dogma.
Consequently millions were burned at the stake for listening to their inner
voice (divine inspiration). Well the govts came along and cut a deal with the
church. Basically it was to use education as a way to get individuals afraid
of and/or unconscious of divine inspiration, by getting them to believe if
they couldn t see it it didn t exist. So they would be educated to go to a
doctor if they noticed a inner voice. Now how did doctors get in on the deal?
Well if a person is divinly inspired they don t get sick, so guess who would
be out of business, non other but the AMA. So I am sure the churches, govt.,
schools, and the AMA are proud of you, you are a shining example of their work.
BTW did you take a pay off to write that? I wonder how many times you have
been burned at the stake? Would you be interested in doing some past life
work with me and find out?
Don Showen
Rolf Meier
>and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians
>are trying to get across our thick sculls is that
I realize now what the Pleiadians are trying to tell us: health and
happiness can only be truly realized by rowing.
___________________________________________________________________________
Rolf Meier Mitel Corporation
"Everything You Know Is Wrong"
Bruce Barr
Up until this point you have made a point about pre-conditioning. Not in the
best way possible, but within reasonable limits.
My Comment: I can't SEE a virus, but I can recognize the effects on my body.
If there is a possibility of communications from another higher (note lack
of ' '...) form of life through channeling, then some form of factual
information should be possible to send. If not I question the communications
medium and/or the intellegence of the higher life form. If it is really a
question of lack of terminology, surly a little study of glossaries could be
undertaken. (Sorry for those not following this thread, this is refering to
another post.)
>BTW did you take a pay off to write that? I wonder how many times you have
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Here you have crossed the line. Period.
You have stated that you are not out to 'convert' anybody. I assure you, at
this rate, you will not.
>been burned at the stake? Would you be interested in doing some past life
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>work with me and find out?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Please offer ANY historical evidence of ANY past life uncovered by ANYBODY
that is, of course, not explained by some 'tainting' of the person by
by normal knowledge of the historical events involved. I will accept
any reasonable doubt that no tainting is involved. I am just unaware of
any evidence. Please show me I am wrong.
>
>
>Don Showen
Waiting expectantly,
Bruce Barr
Lucid in the Seventh Dimension
>higher intelligences give away information freely. One other pointer, Tesla
>used to hyperventilate to improve his powers of visualization. He would
>design, build, and run a motor for a period of time, dismantel it and see
>where the parts were worn, all in his head. He actually acknowledged the
>assistance he was getting from higher intelligence.
What spiritual path or belief system did Tesla follow? I remember hearing
about a group that held meetings about Tesla and those beliefs.
Jeffery
--
``May the servants of Empress Wu Hu spend a weekend in your robe.''
--Chinese Good Luck saying
David Wolfe
>Nikola Tesla had over 700 patents. He is the man responsible for Alternating
>Current and radio being on this planet. He freely admitted he was getting
>assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence.
[Tesla life story deleted]
>I doubt it. The point is that maybe those of you who have a solid science
>background, have it as a foundation to receive and implement new technologies
>from higher intelligence. All I am saying is that there is higher
>intelligence out there and maybe you can receive or are receiving it. If only
>you would stop screaming and believing - if it can t be seen it does not exist.
>Listen!
So you deny that any human could have thought of the things Einstein and Tesla
did without alien help? We are so puny and incompetent and our visualisation
capacities so limited we couldn't think of or do any of these things on our
own?
How about great works of art and music? The advent of phsychiatry? Were
Freud and Jung in contact with aliens? Was Andy Warhol Channeling? How
about philosophy, literature or religion? Was Gandhi an alien puppet?
I think you are the one who denies what you cannot understand:
Human creativity, insight and technical capacity.
-DaveW
>Don Showen
Kevin D. Quitt
>teachers and I consider what they teach to be among the highest quality of
>information I have encountered.
Has anything they've presented to you been outside of current human
philsophy? That is, have you learned anything from them that couldn't or
hasn't come from a normal human mind? Would you give some (short)
examples? (email may be preferable)
>Nikola Tesla ... freely admitted he was getting
>assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence.
He did? What's your source?
>when he was in school he presented
>his theory of alternating current and the professor spent the whole class
>period putting Tesla and the theory down.
Where was this documented?
> Now lucky for us that Tesla was not
>a Skeptic and more interested in what his peers thought than truth, or we
>would be using Edisions DC power with a generating plant every few blocks.
Wrongo boy! He *was* a skeptic, and only believed what he had evidence
for. A skeptic is the *one person* who will not be swayed by opinion.
--
_
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%ve...@sr.com
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
Marc Quattromani
>I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim
>to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
>tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
>of years to evolve to our current level? Perhaps living on plasma planets
>is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?
Ah, but it's such a pretty group of stars, one that everyone can
immediately recognize. You wouldn't expect such advanced beings to be
from somthing as dull as a solar system with a dim little star such as
our own, one that's barely visible from adjacent solar systems, would
you?
You bring up a very good point although I believe the age of the stars
is in the tens of millions of years. Still very short but blue stars
don't last very long.
--
Marc Quattromani Convex Computer Corporation
Richardson, Texas
qua...@convex.COM
Joshua Geller
writes:
|>Don_-_...@cup.portal.com writes:
|>>Nikola Tesla had over 700 patents. He is the man responsible for Alternat-
|>>ing Current and radio being on this planet. He freely admitted he was gett-
|>>ing assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence.
|>[Tesla life story deleted]
|>>I doubt it. The point is that maybe those of you who have a solid science
|>>background, have it as a foundation to receive and implement new techno-
|>>logies from higher intelligence. All I am saying is that there is higher
|>>intelligence out there and maybe you can receive or are receiving it. If
|>>only you would stop screaming and believing - if it can t be seen it does
|>>not exist. Listen!
|>So you deny that any human could have thought of the things Einstein and
|>Tesla did without alien help? We are so puny and incompetent and our visual-
|>isation capacities so limited we couldn't think of or do any of these things
|>on our own?
Actually Tesla was a pretty strange guy (that's a compliment from me) and had
some interesting abilities, like designing machines in his head (going into
the shop and telling machinists with dictated specs and simple drawings to
each make such and such a part and putting the parts together into a working
machine) for instance. It's been a while since I read any of his stuff but I
believe he did say he was getting stuff from 'higher levels'. I don't think
ET's were mentioned, and considering my personal prejudices I think it was
more like his HGA or the moral equivalent of same.
What the hell, I am cross posting this into alt.magick, lets get some cross
fermentation going.
josh
Rolf Meier
>period putting Tesla and the theory down. Now lucky for us that Tesla was not
>a Skeptic and more interested in what his peers thought than truth, or we
>would be using Edisions DC power with a generating plant every few blocks. So
Actually, dc transmission suffers from less loss over very long distances
because dc is not affected by line inductance and capacitance. The reason
ac is used is because it is easier to transform to high voltages for long
distance transmission, and low voltages for end use. When dc-to-dc converters
are more efficient than transformers, in the future you may see a return
to dc transmission. This has been made possible by the invention of
semiconductor technology.
Why must you invoke alien intelligence as the mechanism whereby we obtain
the technology that you evidently don't understand?
Don_-_...@cup.portal.com
Bruce Barr says
>Please offer ANY historical evidence of ANY past life uncovered by ANYBODY
>that is, of course, not explained by some 'tainting' of the person by
>by normal knowledge of the historical events involved. I will accept
>any reasonable doubt that no tainting is involved. I am just unaware of
>any evidence. Please show me I am wrong.
A while back Don Allen posted
The Meier Case & Its Spirituality -- By James W. Deardorff
Below is part of that post. I have not read Ian Stevensons work but
he did get a million dollar grant to study reincarnation. So maybe
it will provide a form of proof to those who would like to examine
the possibility of reincarnation.
It is interesting that the concept of reincarnation has arisen from
observations quite independent of any religious teachings. Data have been
accumulating in the files of those psychiatrists who have carefully studied
childhood cases of the "reincarnation type." In these cases, of worldwide
distribution, an occasional child, usually between ages of two and six, will
be noticed by parents or relatives to talk spontaneously at times as if he or
she were actually someone else. Often the child makes enough statements so
that the "someone else" can be identified beyond reasonable doubt as a
particular person who had died some years or months before the birth of the
child in question. Ian Stevenson, author of cases of the Reincarnation Type
(four volumes published between 1975 and 1980), has over a thousand "solved"
cases of this nature in his files, along with a comparable number of unsolved
cases. After the child exceeds an age of from six to ten, the past-life
memories generally fade away.
Joe Mastroianni
One biography of Tesla (Not "Man out of Time", but a longer one written by
a close friend...Ill have to go back to my book boxes and dig it out) states
that Tesla felt he was visited by a spirit/being/presence, that manifested
itself in the form of a dove with radiant eyes. He had such a visitation
on the night his mother died. He was extremely attached to his mother. Her
death was catastrophic for him.
Tesla also is claimed to have an incredibly visual imagination. The author
and Tesla were walking when Tesla invented the synchronous AC motor. The
author claims Tesla shouted something like, "Look, there it is, right in
front of us. Watch the fields rotate. See, its simple. Watch how I can
make it reverse..." This event is presented to the reader in a a way
as to make you believe Tesla expected others to see the images he
conjured in his mind.
Tesla also enjoyed connecting himself to extremely high frequency, high
voltage, low current, power sources. Mark Twain was a guest at one of
Tesla's private parties where he hooked himself up to his lightning
machines. One could see glowing currents flowing over his body. He could
also make lamps light at a distance. It is claimed that he once connected
a tiny box to a load-bearing pillar in his workshop. The box vibrated
at the fundamental frequency of this building housing his workshop. When
bricks began to fall from the building to the street, the police were called
in to force Tesla to turn off his miniature earthquake machine.
Tesla was a genius. I do not believe beings from the Pleiades had anything
to do with his inventions. Anyway, the Pleiades are a group of young stars
still in the process of formation. It is a younger system than ours. The
most advanced life form in that cluster is a protein molecule. We are a
more advanced society than anything which has or is developing there. That is,
unless beings develop in the core of forming stars.
Marconi shut off all the electric lights in Milan with a pocket sized device.
This included battery powered devices. This happened long ago. Now, no one
can be sure Marconi actually did it himself. One day he said something
like, "On October 22 at 7:00 PM Im going to turn off all electricity in
Milan." And at that time, everything stopped working. So, was Marconi
in touch with people from other galaxies or dimensions?
I hope not. I hope we can give some credit to the humans who have through
their own intelligence and creations changed the world for the better.
Humans are pretty incredible creatures too.
Joe
--
Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA
Cadence Design Systems
Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we
j...@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men "
Jim Shaffer
>to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
>tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
>of years to evolve to our current level? Perhaps living on plasma planets
>is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?
I used to mention it every chance I got. Then I got tired of all the
chances :-)
Of course, the Pleiadians might not have bodies. But then, why hang around
any particular star system?
--
* From the disk of: | j...@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now
Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut?
37 Brook Street | jms%va...@amix.commodore.com |
Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750...@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up")
Kevin D. Quitt
>Marconi shut off all the electric lights in Milan with a pocket sized device.
>This included battery powered devices.
Somehow I really doubt this. You have some documentation perhaps?
>So, was Marconi
>in touch with people from other galaxies or dimensions?
Nope, just Tesla's notes.
>I hope we can give some credit to the humans who have through
>their own intelligence and creations changed the world for the better.
>Humans are pretty incredible creatures too.
Can't disagree with you here.
Sildem Gandy
>Please offer ANY historical evidence of ANY past life uncovered by ANYBODY
>that is, of course, not explained by some 'tainting' of the person by
>by normal knowledge of the historical events involved. I will accept
>any reasonable doubt that no tainting is involved. I am just unaware of
>any evidence. Please show me I am wrong.
>
>
>Bruce Barr
Try reading "The girl with blue eyes". I don't remember the author off-hand
but this has a very interesting account of a girl regressed to a previous
life. She remembered a life when her name was "Lishus Faver". And "We took
the gates". Her father tried to find an historical record of this and event-
ually found one of an Aloyisious LeFever who was famed for have taken the
gates of a fort. His daughter had no possibility of knowing this very
obscure bit of history.
Here's another possible tidbit. I am very certain that in my previous
life in the twenties my name was Henry George Witherspoon the third, my
father went by Hank, I went by George, I drove a yellow Stutz Bearcat, I
lived in the New England area (I had a very New England teeth gritting
accent!). I had an accident where I ran into a crowd of people with the
Stutz, I think in about 1926 or so. I died in '27.
Anybody out there want to look up the historical references regarding that?
Or perhaps you know of the family? I think the family owned textile mills.
And my brothers name was Sam.
Sildem Gandy (sga...@peruvian.utah.edu)
Paul Broenen
|> A while back Don Allen posted
|> The Meier Case & Its Spirituality -- By James W. Deardorff
|>
|> Below is part of that post. I have not read Ian Stevensons work but
|> he did get a million dollar grant to study reincarnation. So maybe
|> it will provide a form of proof to those who would like to examine
|> the possibility of reincarnation.
|>
|> It is interesting that the concept of reincarnation has arisen from
|> observations quite independent of any religious teachings. Data have been
|> accumulating in the files of those psychiatrists who have carefully studied
|> childhood cases of the "reincarnation type." In these cases, of worldwide
|> distribution, an occasional child, usually between ages of two and six, will
|> be noticed by parents or relatives to talk spontaneously at times as if he or
|> she were actually someone else. Often the child makes enough statements so
|> that the "someone else" can be identified beyond reasonable doubt as a
|> particular person who had died some years or months before the birth of the
|> child in question. Ian Stevenson, author of cases of the Reincarnation Type
|> (four volumes published between 1975 and 1980), has over a thousand "solved"
|> cases of this nature in his files, along with a comparable number of unsolved
|> cases. After the child exceeds an age of from six to ten, the past-life
|> memories generally fade away.
For what it's worth, about a month ago I read a book entitled:
"The After-life Experience"
(Subtitled: "The Physics of the Non-physical") I don't recall the
author's last name (Wilson?), but he was British and had the same
first name "Ian".
This author mentioned some of Stevenson's most striking cases.
Specifically, two cases of children in India who claimed to be
people other than they currently were. However, the author set
about debunking Stevenson, because [reportedly more thorough]
researchers who followed up with Stevenson's subjects found many
flaws and signs of trickery. The author's claim was that
Stevenson was too eager to find evidence for reincarnation and
hurriedly accepted a lot of 'evidence' on faith.
I don't particularly recommend "The After-life Experience" as a
knowledgeable resource. The author doesn't seem to have the
appropriate background for a book regarding such subjects. Plus,
he shows an obvious bias thoughout his presentation of "facts".
Another word of warning: the subtitle is misleading. There is
only one chapter in the book that even approaches the subject of
Physics and it merely describes a handful of studies that may
have revealed paranormal phenomena (like Einstein's particle
spinning test.)
Paul
Bob Martin
>All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your
>self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an
>easy task, but it is do-able... the information you desire is free for the
>taking, if you can but unlock your consciousnes, as Einstein and many
>many others have done. It is getting in tune with how the universe works,
>and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians
>are trying to get across our thick sculls is that
> IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP!
Why can't we just figure these things out for ourselves.
Why do we have to believe that beings wiser and more
intelligent will tell us all the answers if only we will
listen.
Answers come through hard work, and hard thought and lots
of experience and lots of trial and error. If you want
to find the solutions to your problems, be they math
problems, science problems, personality problems or any
other type of problem, then buckle down and get to work.
Don't wait for some gentler, nobler and wiser intellect
to do it for you. Those who depend on higher intellects
are taking the risk that they will one day drink some
purple koolaid.
I resent the notion that our great men and women of science
and history were really tapped into some deeper center.
Why can't we just give these men and women the credit
they deserve. Not credit for "tapping in" but credit
for working the problems out for themselves.
Phooey! I've wasted enough time in this newsgroup.
--
+---Robert C. Martin---+-RRR---CCC-M-----M-| R.C.M. Consulting |
| rma...@rational.com |-R--R-C----M-M-M-M-| C++/C/Unix Engineering |
| (Uncle Bob.) |-RRR--C----M--M--M-| OOA/OOD/OOP Training |
+----------------------+-R--R--CCC-M-----M-| Product Design & Devel. |
Jim Shaffer
>I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim
>to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
>tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
>of years to evolve to our current level? Perhaps living on plasma planets
>is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?
I used to mention it every chance I got. Then I got tired of all the
chances :-)
Of course, the Pleiadians might not have bodies. But then, why hang around
any particular star system?
--
* From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION: | I'm in a groove now
Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut?
37 Brook Street | jms%va...@cbmvax.commodore.com|
Warren Burstein
.. there are numerous quote gods
Hmm, most religions do not quote their gods. Does this mean that
Pleidians do not evaluate their deities? Why doesn't elisp have a
divine-p predicate?
--
/|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem
|__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot
|warren@ But the farmer
/ worlds.COM is not worried at all.
Warren Burstein
>The Pleiadians say they are here to inspire us to the highest degree possible
>so we will wake up and start creating our own reality
And some people have already created their own reality...
For those of you who are too tired to create your very own reality,
I'll sell you some of mine.
Mark William Hopkins
> All I want is proof. Why should I expend my time and energy before I
>get a good reason to do so? Your friend claimed to be in contact with higher
>intelligences-- before I make _any_ commitments, I'd like to see some proof
>that your friend is genuine. (Either he's genuine, or deranged.)
> The problem may or may not be solvable. All I want is either a
>solution, or a lagically supported reason why it's not solvable. Until I get
>that, the 'Plieaidian transcripts' are about as useful as line noise.
>
> So, whaddya say? Why don't you do the autotyping and convince me, if
>it's so simple? One good logical proof. (And saying "It's notsolable because
>our logic/philosophy/science/minds are too limited" is a cop-out.
>So there.)
I don't you think you realise what you're saying here.
You made an unreasonable demand made not even of any hard science. If you
believe otherwise, then provide a consistency proof of Maxwell's Equations.
In case you're not informed, it's still an open problem. And I'm not referring
to absolute consistency a la Goedel either, but simply consistency based on
set theory.
And the point is that this in no way detracts from Maxwell's Theory's status
as being a perfectly acceptable (as far as it is *Physically* consistent ...
another issue in itself).
Therefore, logical proof is not an acceptable criterion for acceptance of a
theory. This is not an opinion, but simply a fact: what actually is.
Mark William Hopkins
In article <1991Sep28.0...@wpi.WPI.EDU> dr...@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes:
>NNNNnnnnnooooo..... I thought we were mammals. Or does being a "reptile"
>imply something besides being cold-blooded and laying eggs?
The layering in our brain reflects our evolutionary descent, and is one of
many clues relating to our origin.
I hate to tell you, but reptiles are your cousins about a million or so
times removed. You're related to a lizard.
Barrington King
reincarnated into the twentieth century over seventeen times. It must
really be her period.
--
"If you find the Buddha in your [] -WoMbat
directory file, remove him..." [] bk...@athena.cs.uga.edu
-Grinning Bartok [] @aisun1.ai.uga.edu
Mary K. Kuhner
Pleiadians are extraterrestrial entities or projections of their
channelers' subconscious (or something else). They offer moral and
spiritual advice--why not judge them on that? If it's good advice, it's
good advice regardless of origin, and if it isn't--well, I suppose alien
intelligences can be badly mistaken, ignorant or malicious just as well
as we can.
I have not read very many of the transcripts, but Kuthumi's insistence
on "Do not doubt, do not question, skepticism is evil" strikes me as a
very bad thing; and the tone of condescension I hear in the Pleiadian
transcripts also bothers me. Why spend so much time denegrating human
accomplishments? How does this square with the advice to take pride in
ourselves?
I would be very interested in hearing from people who did find useful
insights in this material; I'm open to reconsidering it, if shown a
reason.
Mary Kuhner mkku...@genetics.washington.edu
Kevin D. Quitt
> His daughter had no possibility of knowing this very
>obscure bit of history.
Why is this phrase so popular? Why don't people know that this kind
of statement is false on the face of it?
Pete Ashdown
>Here's another possible tidbit. I am very certain that in my previous
>life in the twenties my name was Henry George Witherspoon the third, my
>father went by Hank, I went by George, I drove a yellow Stutz Bearcat, I
>lived in the New England area (I had a very New England teeth gritting
>accent!). I had an accident where I ran into a crowd of people with the
>Stutz, I think in about 1926 or so. I died in '27.
Yet another tidbit to munch on. I'm very certain that in a previous life, my
name was Jamm Morrisey or something like that. People usually called me
"Lizard King" or "Mofo Fallin". I drove nothing, but liked to wear leather
pants. I also liked whiskey and lots of women. I had an accident where I
exposed myself to a crowd of people while using the whiskey. I died in the
early '70s.
Of course I was born before that time, but I seem to remember passing a dead
drug addict in the bathtub in my early years while my mother was a maid in
Paris. I'm fairly certain that his spirit passed from him to me.
Can anyone back this up with historical fact?
--
TELEVISON! Drug of our nation. Breeder of ignorance and feeder of radiation.
DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer. Keep it that way.
Pete Ashdown pash...@javelin.sim.es.com ...uunet!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown
Eric Ant Von Laudermann
Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
I wouldn't be surprised if I was) but I thought that all life evolved from the
sea. And after air-breathers developed, reptiles and mammals evolved. The
common ancestor of reptiles and mammals could not be considered either (that's
the bit I'm not sure of... am I right or wrong?) and therefore we are not
*descended* from reptiles. And if there are no reptiles in our ancestry, there
cannot possibly be anything reptilian about us.
My point is, there was a split somewhere, and the first reptile appeared
somewhere along one branch -- eventually. and the first mammal appeared
somewhere along the other branch -- eventually. We are derscended from
something that came BEFORE reptiles. Therefore they are not ancestors.
--E.V.L. (dr...@wpi.wpi.edu) # "It'll really cost the net hundreds, if
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely # not thousands, of dollars to post this?
devastatingly true, except the bits # COOL!!"
that are lies." --Douglas Adams # --Me
Jacques Guy
>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
>I wouldn't be surprised if I was) but I thought that all life evolved from the
>sea. And after air-breathers developed, reptiles and mammals evolved. The
>common ancestor of reptiles and mammals could not be considered either (that's
>the bit I'm not sure of... am I right or wrong?) and therefore we are not
>*descended* from reptiles. And if there are no reptiles in our ancestry, there
>cannot possibly be anything reptilian about us.
No-one said we were descended from reptiles (except creationists trying to
argue ab absurdo). I have nephews and nieces (courtesy of my cousins and siblings).
And I am not -- repeat NOT -- descended from them (would you believe?)
And if there are no Anita's and Jean-Luc's et al. in my ancestry, there cannot
possibly be anything Anita-like and Jean-Luc-like about me. Uh? Come again?
Brian Davis
>In article <1991Sep29.2...@summa4.mv.com> ad...@summa4.mv.com (Scott Babb) writes:
>>I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim
>>to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
>>tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
>>of years to evolve to our current level? Perhaps living on plasma planets
>>is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?
>
>Ah, but it's such a pretty group of stars, one that everyone can
>immediately recognize. You wouldn't expect such advanced beings to be
>from somthing as dull as a solar system with a dim little star such as
>our own, one that's barely visible from adjacent solar systems, would
>you?
It's the same way with "past life experiences." Everyone I've ever talked
to who has claimed to have had past lives has related stories of dramatic
exciting lives. I have a distant cousin who claims to know the past lives
of everyone in his family -- even the baby. Of course they were all members
of the roman legions, or nobility or some other character you'd expect to
see in a movie. No one ever seems to say, "I was a stinking serf living in a
stinking disease ridden backwater village in the Dark Ages. I had stumps for
teeth, open sores and I died young."
--
Brian Davis It ain't no sin!
MAI Systems Corp., Tustin, CA Take off your skin,
brian%mbf....@ics.uci.edu And dance around in your bones.
Don Allen
>
>Well if a person is divinly inspired they don t get sick, so guess who would
>be out of business, non other but the AMA. So I am sure the churches, govt.,
>schools, and the AMA are proud of you, you are a shining example of their work.
>BTW did you take a pay off to write that? I wonder how many times you have
>been burned at the stake? Would you be interested in doing some past life
>work with me and find out?
>
>
>Don Showen
God I love it when you get sarcastic :-)
Just rememeber..the flak is usually the heaviest right over the target!
Don
ps...do you suppose any of these wannabe-randi's have ever read any of
Wendelle's books on the Pleiadians, or ever seen the Stevens/Elders
"Contact" video?
"research...duh...whats dat?"
Yuk yuk yuk (BIG GRIN)
--
-* Don Allen *- InterNet: do...@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO!
UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992?
Karen Millar
Gee, Brian, sorry to hear that you are creating such a silly
reality around yourself. I have plenty of people whom I know have had
perfectly real honest experiences in past life regressions. Maybe if
you changed your attitude to one that was more open-minded (not synonymous
with air-head, I assure you!) so that the honest ones didn't immediately
decide upon meeting you that they wanted to be somewhere else, you would
indeed have a different view. You see, if you are judgemental and attack
people for something that they consider a part of themselves, they will
not share with you. You severely limit yourself with your self-righteous
attitude. It's your choice, of course, and always has been, as to whether
you want to be spiritually myopic or not.
--
Love is the answer...
Communication Facilities Designer
Freelance in the Land of Enchantment Albuquerque, NM
kar...@yenta.alb.nm.us (505) 292-3445
Carl J Lydick
> Gee, Brian, sorry to hear that you are creating such a silly
>reality around yourself. I have plenty of people whom I know have had
>perfectly real honest experiences in past life regressions.
Well, since this IS sci.skeptic, I don't think it's inappropriate to ask for
some proof that these were "perfectly real honest experiences in past life
regressions" instead of mere fantasies or memories spontaneously generated as a
result of suggestions by the person supervising the regression. So:
How do you know that these were past life experiences?
>Maybe if you changed your attitude to one that was more open-minded (not
>synonymous with air-head, I assure you!)
What? We're now to take the word of an airhead that her definitions of
open-minded and doesn't correspond with the accepted definition of airhead?
Karen: Are you by any chance a blond?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CA...@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL
Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My
understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So
unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my
organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to
hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it.
BAKER, RICHARD ALAN
>In article <48...@cup.portal.com> Don_-_...@cup.portal.com writes:
>
>>period putting Tesla and the theory down. Now lucky for us that Tesla was not
>>a Skeptic and more interested in what his peers thought than truth, or we
>>would be using Edisions DC power with a generating plant every few blocks. So
>
>Actually, dc transmission suffers from less loss over very long distances
>because dc is not affected by line inductance and capacitance. The reason
>ac is used is because it is easier to transform to high voltages for long
Ac transmission also has the problems of skin depth which dc does not, but
since 60Hz is very low frequency this problem is not too bad.
Dc power is pretty much better in every respect except the fact that
transformation is easier.
Eric Ant Von Laudermann
>
> I have nephews and nieces (courtesy of my cousins and siblings).
>And I am not -- repeat NOT -- descended from them (would you believe?)
>And if there are no Anita's and Jean-Luc's et al. in my ancestry, there cannot
>possibly be anything Anita-like and Jean-Luc-like about me. Uh? Come again?
There is no Anita portion of your brain stem, in the sense that Anita did not
contribute to the physical makeup of your brain. There cannot be a reptilian
portion of my brain stem, because no reptiles were involved in the physical
makeup of my brain.
I don't even have a part of my brother in me, even though we are very alike in
many ways. Of course much of our DNA is the same, but that's a part of
our parents in each of us, not a part of him in me or me in him.
So, I guess the question is, what other way is there of acquiring a reptilian
brain stem, if not descent from reptiles?
>No-one said we were descended from reptiles
Then HOW ELSE would we acquire a reptilian brain stem???
--E.V.L. (dr...@wpi.wpi.edu) #
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely #
devastatingly true, except the bits #
Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano
> In article <1991Oct5.2...@yenta.alb.nm.us>, kar...@yenta.alb.nm.us (K
> > Gee, Brian, sorry to hear that you are creating such a silly
> >reality around yourself. I have plenty of people whom I know have had
> >perfectly real honest experiences in past life regressions.
>
> Well, since this IS sci.skeptic, I don't think it's inappropriate to ask for
> some proof that these were "perfectly real honest experiences in past life
> regressions" instead of mere fantasies or memories spontaneously generated as
> result of suggestions by the person supervising the regression. So:
> How do you know that these were past life experiences?
>
> >Maybe if you changed your attitude to one that was more open-minded (not
> >synonymous with air-head, I assure you!)
>
> What? We're now to take the word of an airhead that her definitions of
> open-minded and doesn't correspond with the accepted definition of airhead?
> Karen: Are you by any chance a blond?
You're forgetting, carl, that we're skeptics-- and to Karen, that
means that we're closed-minded, unspiritual, patehtically mechanically-minded
thuds who'll never experience the inexpressibly joy of past-life regression
or paranormal events. In fact, no matter how open-minded we are, if we raise
even a hint of doubt, to Karen we're just raising doubts because we're
(ahem)_ afraid of the paranormal.
You realize that nothing will ever shake Karen of this belief, so why
even bother arguing?
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics
Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding
re...@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire
""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
Jacques Guy
>>No-one said we were descended from reptiles
> Then HOW ELSE would we acquire a reptilian brain stem???
1. By being descended from a common ancestor,
2. by convergent evolution.
Sorry, I was about to forget:
3. By basking in the sun (or rather, if it was 6000 years ago, Saturn, see
talk.origins) in the proximity of the Great Pyramid.
Chris Malcolm
>ca...@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick) writes:
>
>> In article <1991Oct5.2...@yenta.alb.nm.us>, kar...@yenta.alb.nm.us (K
>> > Gee, Brian, sorry to hear that you are creating such a silly
>> >reality around yourself. I have plenty of people whom I know have had
>> >perfectly real honest experiences in past life regressions.
>> How do you know that these were past life experiences?
>> >Maybe if you changed your attitude to one that was more open-minded (not
>> >synonymous with air-head, I assure you!)
>> What? We're now to take the word of an airhead that her definitions of
>> open-minded and doesn't correspond with the accepted definition of airhead?
>> Karen: Are you by any chance a blond?
> You're forgetting, carl, that we're skeptics-- and to Karen, that
>means that we're closed-minded, unspiritual, patehtically mechanically-minded
>thuds who'll never experience the inexpressibly joy of past-life regression
> You realize that nothing will ever shake Karen of this belief, so why
>even bother arguing?
This is getting very silly, and oddly enough :-) it is the skeptics who
are being silly.
Some skeptic first wondered why all past life claims were of star
quality instead of simply ordinary.
Karen then pointed out, quite correctly, that this claim was nonsense,
i.e., that most of those who believe themselves to have had past life
experiences cite rather ordinary lives. If you don't personally know any
such people, then this fact can easily be verified by looking at any of
the many investigative compendia of such experiences. There does often
tend to be a dramatic element, since there is a tendency for the death
to be remembered (if remembering is what is going on here), and deaths
are often dramatic, but most of them are ordinary lives of ordinary
folk, as you would expect.
Karen also pointed out the relevant fact that only fools and air-heads
are likely to proffer their experiences to people liable to sneer at
them.
This is quite independent of whether these experiences are *really* of
past lives or not.
Completely ignoring this proper, logical, and factual rebuttal of an
ignorant skeptic's silly attempt to sneer, a bunch of other skeptics
then pile in to add further ad hominem insults to Karen, whom they have
concluded is fair game and an air-head because she believes in past
lives. What a bunch of prats!
It is true that some of those who believe in past lives, just like some
of those who believe in ghosts, are gullible air-heads. There are also
some who believe in these things because of very convincing personal
experiences, the kind of experiences which would convince anyone who had
them. Naturally these experiences have no more than the status of
anecdotes to anyone else, and skeptics, before being convinced, quite
properly call for more examples, instructions for giving themselves the
experience, etc.. This, however, does not alter the properly convincing
nature of the experience to the experiencer, and it is illogical and
insulting to suppose that because *you* have not had, and cannot have, a
certain experience, this means that *she* must be an idiot for taking
her experience seriously. Of course, she might be an air-head -- but you
don't know that, and to conclude it is illogical and insulting.
I'm actually a professional scientist, but I refuse to call myself a
skeptic because I do not want to be associted with the adolescent and
ignorant sneering prats who call themselves skeptics in this newsgroup,
many of whom quite clearly don't even have a decent scientific education
and are just posturing.
On the basis of the arguments so far put out in this thread, I have to
say that so far Karen comes out as rational, and her skeptical
detractors a bunch of dough-heads pretending to be rational scientists.
--
Chris Malcolm c...@uk.ac.ed.aipna +44 (0)31 667 1011 x2550
Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
Steve Lamont
>After considerable study, I have discovered that Cleopatra has been
>reincarnated into the twentieth century over seventeen times. It must
>really be her period.
... well, every 28 millennia she does get a mite irritable.
spl (the p stands for
Pre-Millennial Syndrome)
--
Steve Lamont, SciViGuy -- (619) 534-7968 -- s...@dim.ucsd.edu
UCSD Microscopy and Imaging Resource/UCSD Med School/La Jolla, CA 92093-0608
"Water for people, not landscaping"
- Bumper sticker seen in Southern California
Steve Timpson
In article <1991Sep29.2...@summa4.mv.com> ad...@summa4.mv.com (Scott Babb) writes:
>I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim
>to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well,
>tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions
>of years to evolve to our current level? Perhaps living on plasma planets
>is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution?
Wrong! The Pleadies Star Cluster albeit young is on the order of
millions of years old. If you would like I will find out exactly
how old and post it here.
Steve
Josh N. Vander Berg
>
>It is true that some of those who believe in past lives, just like some
>of those who believe in ghosts, are gullible air-heads. There are also
>some who believe in these things because of very convincing personal
>experiences, the kind of experiences which would convince anyone who had
>them. Naturally these experiences have no more than the status of
I beg your pardon???? "Convince anyone"??? I am very skeptical of my
personal experiences, and even more skeptical of personal interpretations
of said experiences. I have had visions before. I have had some VERY
"wacked out" experiences. But do I jump to the conclusions that others
seem all too willing to jump to? NO. I am convinced that the human
mind is quite capable of generating any experience it wants to. If I
wanted to, yes, I could believe in God, the Pleidians, Santa, and a whole
mess of other things, all substantiated by very REAL personal experience.
I do not question the validity of the personal experience these people have
had - I am sure that they have had these experiences, and believe them to
be real, but I question the supposition that somehow these PERSONAL
experience should be taken as validation of their beliefs to OTHERS.
>anecdotes to anyone else, and skeptics, before being convinced, quite
>properly call for more examples, instructions for giving themselves the
>experience, etc.. This, however, does not alter the properly convincing
>nature of the experience to the experiencer, and it is illogical and
>insulting to suppose that because *you* have not had, and cannot have, a
>certain experience, this means that *she* must be an idiot for taking
>her experience seriously. Of course, she might be an air-head -- but you
>don't know that, and to conclude it is illogical and insulting.
I would claim that anyone who thinks that all the experiences they have
are based in reality, is, for lack of a better word, an "air-head". I have
not read much, if any of what Karen has had to say so I will not judge
her, I doubt very much that she thinks that all of her experiences are
"real", at least I would hope not. Oh, and I am sure I could share her
experiences, but this would in NO way validate her beliefs to me.
Here you tell us what you are:
>I'm actually a professional scientist, but I refuse to call myself a
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Then later:
>detractors a bunch of dough-heads pretending to be rational scientists.
^^^^^^^^^^^
"dough-heads"??? My, such scientific terminology. If you wish to claim
the moral high ground here, please step out of the muck yourself, and stop
mudslinging.
Josh Vander Berg.
Pete Hardie
>reincarnated into the twentieth century over seventeen times. It must
>really be her period.
Not to mention the 3 simutaneous incarnations of Rhiannon I've seen claimed
in the local psychic classified ads.
--
Pete Hardie ...!emory!nastar!phardie
Digital Transmission Systems, Inc. (voice) (404) 497-0101
Carl J Lydick
>ignorant skeptic's silly attempt to sneer, a bunch of other skeptics
>then pile in to add further ad hominem insults to Karen, whom they have
>concluded is fair game and an air-head because she believes in past
>lives. What a bunch of prats!
Well, if she hadn't apparently credulously accepted the claim of an
acquaintance to have had a REAL past-life regression, these responses wouldn't
have occurred. She's been participating in sci.skeptic long enough to know
that unsubstantiated claims just don't cut it. But did she offer any reason
for believing that the acquaintance's experience actually had anything to do
with a past life? Of course not.
>It is true that some of those who believe in past lives, just like some
>of those who believe in ghosts, are gullible air-heads. There are also
>some who believe in these things because of very convincing personal
>experiences, the kind of experiences which would convince anyone who had
>them.
I, for one, believe I'd be unlikely to be convinced by anything short of
finding out something previously unknown to ANYONE currently alive, and later
finding evidence that what I'd found out was true; e.g., if I were to
experience the death of, say, Ambrose Bierce, and thus find out where he
disappeared to and how he died, and later his remains were found where my
experience told me they should be. But those claiming the validity of
past-life experienced DO NOT ask for that sort of evidence. They're satisfied
with the fact that the experience "felt" real. Or that they learned something
of which they had not previously been CONSCIOUSLY aware. Suppose you put your
keys down and forgot where you put them. You looked all over for them, but
couldn't find them. The next night, you have a dream in which you learn where
the keys are. The next day, you look there and find them. Would you REALLY
consider this to be a psychic experience? I have yet to see a claim of
past-life experiences that shows any evidence for being valid that is stronger
than this evidence that your dream was a psychic experience.
>Naturally these experiences have no more than the status of
>anecdotes to anyone else, and skeptics, before being convinced, quite
>properly call for more examples, instructions for giving themselves the
>experience, etc..
Why "naturally?" Why hasn't anybody had a past-life experience involving the
owner of the Lost Dutchman Mine? Why is it that no past-life experiences give
the person who experiences them information that the person could not have
acquired elsewhere?
>This, however, does not alter the properly convincing
>nature of the experience to the experiencer, and it is illogical and
>insulting to suppose that because *you* have not had, and cannot have, a
>certain experience, this means that *she* must be an idiot for taking
>her experience seriously.
We're commenting on the very low definition that she and you use for "properly
convincing". I can show you line-drawings that, by the criteria you're using
show that one line is longer than another, when, in fact, if you measure the
lines, the first is SHORTER. Subjective impressions without supporting
evidence are not persuasive.
>Of course, she might be an air-head -- but you
>don't know that, and to conclude it is illogical and insulting.
She sure talks like one, as do you.
>I'm actually a professional scientist, but I refuse to call myself a
>skeptic because I do not want to be associted with the adolescent and
>ignorant sneering prats who call themselves skeptics in this newsgroup,
>many of whom quite clearly don't even have a decent scientific education
>and are just posturing.
Given your apparent field of endeavor, I'd think that your profession is more
along the lines of engineering than science.
>On the basis of the arguments so far put out in this thread, I have to
>say that so far Karen comes out as rational, and her skeptical
>detractors a bunch of dough-heads pretending to be rational scientists.
She comes out as credulous. She asserted the validity of past-life
experiences, citing as evidence ONLY the fact that acquaintances thought that
their past-life regressions were valid. Hey, here's one for you:
There are these two guys, Pons and Fleischman, who claim that their
experiments in electrochemistry produce cold fusion! No, I didn't ask
for proof. After all, they're working at reputable universities, and
they say they've produced cold fusion, so they must have. We don't
need no stinkin' proof.
If rational scientists accepted this level of proof, we'd still be using
Aristotelian Physics.
>Chris Malcolm c...@uk.ac.ed.aipna +44 (0)31 667 1011 x2550
>Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University
>5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205
Maybe this explains why there are still no working artificial intelligence
systems. It's asking a bit much for the invention to be more capable than the
inventor.
Eric Shafto
> Completely ignoring this proper, logical, and factual rebuttal of an
> ignorant skeptic's silly attempt to sneer, a bunch of other skeptics
> then pile in to add further ad hominem insults to Karen, whom they have
> concluded is fair game and an air-head because she believes in past
> lives. What a bunch of prats!
I don't remember who started the ad hominems on Karen in this thread,
but the first one I saw was completely uncalled for. The "Are you by
any chance blonde?" was repulsive, and the specific argument being
attacked was a sound one.
However, Karen IS an airhead, or at least, that is the strong impression
I have gathered from reading a lot of her posts. Particularly
the ones about crop circles. OK, so it is an insult, but I am
not using it to attack her arguments, so it is not an ad hominem,
merely a denigrating observation. Sorry, Karen, but that's the
face you have shown here on sci.skeptic.
--
*Eric Shafto * Of course, without having consulted the great *
*Institute for the * SHAFTO on the subject, the man cannot be *
* Learning Sciences * assumed to be speaking with full authority... *
*Northwestern University * -Ted Holden *
Eric Ant Von Laudermann
>
>>>No-one said we were descended from reptiles
>
>> Then HOW ELSE would we acquire a reptilian brain stem???
>
>1. By being descended from a common ancestor,
I agree that this can be true (in fact, I think that this IS true), but that
doesn't make the brain stem "reptilian". You might as well call a reptile's
brain stem "mammalian".
>2. by convergent evolution.
Once again, this doesn't make it "reptilian".
The original poster was talking
about alien reptiles from the 8th dimension or something, and then says that
part of our brain is reptilian. Seems to me he was implying a deeper
connection; that reptiles had some part in developing our brain.
>Sorry, I was about to forget:
>
>3. By basking in the sun (or rather, if it was 6000 years ago, Saturn, see
> talk.origins) in the proximity of the Great Pyramid.
Hey... you're right! That *would* work, wouldn't it? :-)
--E.V.L. (dr...@wpi.wpi.edu) # But what I *really* want is to direct.
Kevin D. Quitt
>I have plenty of people whom I know have had
>perfectly real honest experiences in past life regressions.
An experience can be a "perfectly real honest experience" without
actually having happened. This is why hypnosis is not longer recognized
in the courts - people create memories which are indistinguishable from
actual memories.
--
_
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq k...@3D.com
99700000
In article <1991Oct4.1...@athena.cs.uga.edu> bk...@athena.cs.uga.edu (Barrington King) writes:
>After considerable study, I have discovered that Cleopatra has been
>reincarnated into the twentieth century over seventeen times. It must
>really be her period.
Did you include Mehitabel the cat, in the archy and mehitabel stories by
Don Marquis?
--
hay...@cats.ucsc.edu
hay...@ucsccats.bitnet
"Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an Art."
Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Jacques Guy
>I agree that this can be true (in fact, I think that this IS true), but
>that doesn't make the brain stem "reptilian". You might as well call a
>reptile's brain stem "mammalian".
Right. So it was only a quarrel of words. Think: "reptilian" was coined originally to label
animals that *crawled* on their bellies. Then applied to bipedal dinosaurians, and *flying*
pterosaurs of all things! That you call your backside an ass doesn't mean that it's because
you sit on
a pair of long ears.
>The original poster was talking about alien reptiles from the 8th
>dimension or something, and then says that part of our brain is
>reptilian. *Seems to me he was implying a deeper connection*; that
>reptiles had some part in developing our brain.
Well *that* wouldn't surprise me, *that* = a nut implying deep connections on the strength on
a false analogy. Have you ever worn a Mickey Mouse
hat? Yes? So mice had some part in developing Walt Disney. QED.
Chris Malcolm
>>Completely ignoring this proper, logical, and factual rebuttal of an
>>ignorant skeptic's silly attempt to sneer, a bunch of other skeptics
>>then pile in to add further ad hominem insults to Karen, whom they have
>>concluded is fair game and an air-head because she believes in past
>>lives. What a bunch of prats!
>Well, if she hadn't apparently credulously accepted the claim of an
>acquaintance to have had a REAL past-life regression, these responses wouldn't
>have occurred. She's been participating in sci.skeptic long enough to know
>that unsubstantiated claims just don't cut it. But did she offer any reason
>for believing that the acquaintance's experience actually had anything to do
>with a past life? Of course not.
What you seem to be incapable of understanding is that that particular
point happened to be irrelevant to the argument that was going on. What
seems to have happened is that one your sceptical prejudices got excited
by some phrase, and you piled into the argument completely disregarding
the context.
>I, for one, believe I'd be unlikely to be convinced by anything short of
>finding out something previously unknown to ANYONE currently alive, and later
>finding evidence that what I'd found out was true;
There have been such cases. A recent much publicised example was the
woman who had been regressed and "experienced" being killed in a
medieval anti-semitic riot in the crypt of a church in York. On careful
investigation this church proved to have no crypt, and there were no
records of its ever having had a crypt. Considerable effort was put into
this investigation since it was part of a BBC TV investigation, and if
the crypt was found to tally with her description, then this would be a
good case of coming to know something which nobody alive knew. Alas to
no avail. The program was repeated some years after it was made. In the
meantime the church had had some building work done, the crypt was
found, and it tallied with the woman's description. The woman concerned
found this a convincing experience.
>But those claiming the validity of
>past-life experienced DO NOT ask for that sort of evidence. They're satisfied
>with the fact that the experience "felt" real.
Lots of them do, it is true, but you are quite wrong to suggest that
*all* do. Some have higher standards. The gullibility of the majority is
neither here nor there. After all, most people believe what medical
doctors tell them for completely silly reasons, and are quite incapable
of assessing a scientific case, but the fact that there are thousands of
gullible believers in medicine does not tarnish its scientific status.
>>Naturally these experiences have no more than the status of
>>anecdotes to anyone else, and skeptics, before being convinced, quite
>>properly call for more examples, instructions for giving themselves the
>>experience, etc..
>Why "naturally?" Why hasn't anybody had a past-life experience involving the
>owner of the Lost Dutchman Mine?
Very few people have such experiences. It's the same problem as with
fossils: you can't get the ones you want, you have to make do with the
ones that turn up. I'm astonished that you can't work out the obvious
silliness of your arguments for yourself.
>Why is it that no past-life experiences give
>the person who experiences them information that the person could not have
>acquired elsewhere?
But there are such cases. They are naturally very rare, but they do
exist, and if you haven't come across any then I suggest you spend some
time in a good library.
>>This, however, does not alter the properly convincing
>>nature of the experience to the experiencer, and it is illogical and
>>insulting to suppose that because *you* have not had, and cannot have, a
>>certain experience, this means that *she* must be an idiot for taking
>>her experience seriously.
>We're commenting on the very low definition that she and you use for "properly
>convincing".
You are making a fool of yourself. I have said nothing about my
standards for "properly convincing", and in the posting under
discussion neither did Karen. They did not happen to be relevant to the
argument, which was about the kind of past lives most commonly
"experienced".
>I can show you line-drawings that, by the criteria you're using
I challenge you to quote my criteria back to me. You are simply
projecting your own prejudices without checking the facts -- in this
case, what I wrote.
>>Of course, she might be an air-head -- but you
>>don't know that, and to conclude it is illogical and insulting.
>She sure talks like one, as do you.
Unless you can substantiate your accusations by quotations from my
postings it is *you* who are inacapable of conducting a rational
argument because your prejudices blind you to the facts -- in this case,
what was actually written.
>>I'm actually a professional scientist, but I refuse to call myself a
>>skeptic because I do not want to be associted with the adolescent and
>>ignorant sneering prats who call themselves skeptics in this newsgroup,
>>many of whom quite clearly don't even have a decent scientific education
>>and are just posturing.
>Given your apparent field of endeavor, I'd think that your profession is more
>along the lines of engineering than science.
The business of engineers is to make useful things which work well. The
business of scientists is to discover the general principles underlying
the phenomena in question. According to that distinction artificial
intelligence research is science. Do you have a different understanding?
>>On the basis of the arguments so far put out in this thread, I have to
>>say that so far Karen comes out as rational, and her skeptical
>>detractors a bunch of dough-heads pretending to be rational scientists.
>She comes out as credulous. She asserted the validity of past-life
>experiences, citing as evidence ONLY the fact that acquaintances thought that
>their past-life regressions were valid.
That's your interpretation of her words. There is another one which fits
equally well which does not seem to have occurred to you, namely that as
a matter of policy she accepts what others believe as provisionally true
unless she has evidence to the contrary. She called that policy being
open-minded. As she pointed out, and as any psychologist knows, when
the data are people's personal experiences you get far better results by
using this approach than by being firmly sceptical, and you do not
thereby commit any sins of scientific method. You will of course find
yourself in the position of having to revise as false something which
you had previously accepted as provisionally true much more often than
the sceptic, but you gain by having much richer data to work on, and so
make better progress.
>Maybe this explains why there are still no working artificial intelligence
>systems. It's asking a bit much for the invention to be more capable than the
>inventor.
I do not wish to be labelled a "skeptic" in the sense of this group
precisely because they use this very silly & childish sort of argument.
1. There are working AI systems.
2. This is a silly ad hominem sneer, since you know nothing of
my capabilities, and the progress of a science does not depend
on the quality of of any individual scientist.
3. There are many cases of inventions being *very* much more
capable than the inventor. Evolution, for example.
In a two line attempted sneer you manage to display ignorance of three
things crucial to your "argument". That's what I mean by not even having
enough of a scientific education to justify your sceptical posturings.
--
Alan Filipski
>but this has a very interesting account of a girl regressed to a previous
>life. She remembered a life when her name was "Lishus Faver". And "We took
>the gates". Her father tried to find an historical record of this and event-
>ually found one of an Aloyisious LeFever who was famed for have taken the
>gates of a fort. His daughter had no possibility of knowing this very
>obscure bit of history.
Why not? if this LeFever was so famous, maybe one of the girls teachers
or acquaintances knew about him and told her the story. Maybe she saw
an allusion to him in a book. Please explain why she had "no
possibility of knowing" this, but her father did. Did the father
discover information known to no one else? How could he even know
that no one else had this information?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
( Alan Filipski, GTX Corp, 8836 N. 23rd Avenue, Phoenix, Arizona 85021, USA )
( {decvax,hplabs,uunet!amdahl,nsc}!sun!sunburn!gtx!al (602)870-1696 )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Warren Burstein
>Now somewhere on a floppy I have transcribed what Einstein said
>through Carole about why he couldn t bring through technical information
>because Carole did not have a technical vocabulary.
OK, let Einstein or any of your other channel-broadcasters do the
following:
1) Write a mathematical proof or plans for a device
2) Turn each word in the above document into a sentence that sort of
makes sense using words, each of which starts with a letter of the word.
3) Channel these sentences.
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
.. ich bin in einem dusenjet ins jahr 53 vor chr...
ich lande im antiken Rom... einige gladiatoren spielen scrabble...
ich rieche PIZZA...
Warren Burstein
>Barry I really want to express my thanks and gratitude for your confession.
>You do the churches, govt., education system and AMA proud! You are
>responding precisely the way they programed you. Beautiful!!!!
Don, why do you think that the government, if it behaves the way you
claim it does, allows you to continue posting? Why haven't they
burned you at the stake or lobotomized you? Perhaps the government
faked the Pleiadian Transcripts in order to discredit true channelers,
and you are their unwitting dupe?
--
I'll leave you with this saying:
I'm young.. I'm HEALTHY.. I can HIKE THRU CAPT GROGAN'S LUMBAR REGIONS!
Crunchy Frog
>In article <1991Oct3.1...@hellgate.utah.edu> sgandy%peruvian...@cs.utah.edu (Sildem Gandy) writes:
>>Try reading "The girl with blue eyes". I don't remember the author off-hand
>>but this has a very interesting account of a girl regressed to a previous
>>life. She remembered a life when her name was "Lishus Faver". And "We took
>>the gates". Her father tried to find an historical record of this and event-
>>ually found one of an Aloyisious LeFever who was famed for have taken the
>>gates of a fort. His daughter had no possibility of knowing this very
>>obscure bit of history.
>
>Why not? if this LeFever was so famous, maybe one of the girls teachers
>or acquaintances knew about him and told her the story. Maybe she saw
>an allusion to him in a book. Please explain why she had "no
>possibility of knowing" this, but her father did. Did the father
>discover information known to no one else? How could he even know
>that no one else had this information?
>
Even this doesn't cover it. Notice that the daughter did not say 'Aloyisious
LeFever' she said Lishus Faver. The father made a connection based on the
fact that the names sounded similar. The daughter could have given the names
Al Lefev, Lish Fever, Lish Faver, Al Fever, Al Faver, Lish Lefev, Aloyish
Le, Al Fev, Lishus Fev, etc. and all these would have matched.
There are a lot of people who have lived and they did a lot of things. If we
are given a random name and are allowed to interpret it in any of a hundred
ways it is unsurprising that we can find someone who 'had' that name.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions above are not mine. I stole them all from the person sitting next
to me. If you don't like them, I can get you his address and you can kill him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan "Long live the Goon Show" Morgan | "You rotton swine, you!" - Bluebottle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Watch out! This gun is loaded and so am I." - Major Denis Bloodnok
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karen Millar
>In article <1991Oct7.1...@cco.caltech.edu> ca...@sol1.gps.caltech.edu writes:
>>Well, if she hadn't apparently credulously accepted the claim of an
>>acquaintance to have had a REAL past-life regression, these responses wouldn't
>>have occurred. She's been participating in sci.skeptic long enough to know
>>that unsubstantiated claims just don't cut it. But did she offer any reason
>>for believing that the acquaintance's experience actually had anything to do
>>with a past life? Of course not.
to share some of YOUR experiences here, instead of always attacking others.
I have had a series of past life regressions myself! and lo! and behold!
I am in the process of checking one of them out right now. When I have \
smething to report, I will, you can be sure of it. I will however not
crosspost it to sci.skeptix so you skeptics will have to watch carefully.
>>I, for one, believe I'd be unlikely to be convinced by anything short of
>>finding out something previously unknown to ANYONE currently alive, and later
>>finding evidence that what I'd found out was true;
I guess that I'd have to say the same thing, in the end. When I had
those past life regressions, I took the attitude that even if linear or
simultaneous lives was not a reality, that I had learned some valuable
things about my underlying psyche. I do not *know* that I lived before.
I only *know* that the experiences I had in that class were valid in
one way or another for me. Other possiblilties might explain the
experiences that people have in such classes... perhaps we could discuss
those in the paranormal and trna newsgroups... I would be happy to
welcome skeptics into the discussion if they would only contribute something
and be discerning, not attack and be judgemental.
Rolf Meier
>I agree that this can be true (in fact, I think that this IS true), but that
>doesn't make the brain stem "reptilian". You might as well call a reptile's
>brain stem "mammalian".
The accepted term for describing the brainstem is indeed "reptilian", due to
the resemblence of that part of the brain to a reptile's brain. This
part of the brain is responsible for the basic life forces, finding food
and reproduction.
Whether or not the use of that term has a basis in the evolution of the
brain is a moot point; that's the correct term.
For a good layman's description of the brain read Carl Sagan's
"The Dragons of Eden". The title conjures up quite well the theme of the book.
______________________________________________________________________________
Rolf Meier Mitel Corporation
"His ancestors came from the Dog Star millions of years ago to rule the earth."
Joe Barger
>In article <1991Oct7.0...@aifh.ed.ac.uk> c...@aifh.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes:
>>
> I am convinced that the human
>mind is quite capable of generating any experience it wants to.
So how about experiencing what is in that office you know
the 3x3 numbers!
just a thought
joe@otto
Eric Shafto
> Oh well, if you insist, but I really think that it would behoove you
> to share some of YOUR experiences here, instead of always attacking others.
> I have had a series of past life regressions myself! and lo! and behold!
> I am in the process of checking one of them out right now. When I have \
> smething to report, I will, you can be sure of it. I will however not
> crosspost it to sci.skeptix so you skeptics will have to watch carefully.
Oh, of course, you wouldn't post something TESTABLE to sci.skeptic.
You will post the most inane drivel here, why not let us know how
the search went, whether you find something to report or not. If you
did, you might find criticism of your research methods, or of your
criteria for deciding that your regressions and some historical
facts matched, but you would not be in for the "airhead" label. I
think the personal attacks would stop immediately if people here
saw that you were interested in investigating the phenomenon, as
opposed to merely believing that your experiences could not be
wrong.
> I guess that I'd have to say the same thing, in the end. When I had
> those past life regressions, I took the attitude that even if linear or
> simultaneous lives was not a reality, that I had learned some valuable
> things about my underlying psyche. I do not *know* that I lived before.
> I only *know* that the experiences I had in that class were valid in
> one way or another for me. Other possiblilties might explain the
> experiences that people have in such classes... perhaps we could discuss
> those in the paranormal and trna newsgroups... I would be happy to
> welcome skeptics into the discussion if they would only contribute something
> and be discerning, not attack and be judgemental.
I could not ask for a better attitude. I apologize for my recent
insulting assessment of your character. I find it difficult to
reconcile what you say here with so much that I have seen you post
in the past, though, where discernment seemed to be the last thing
you were interested in. You seem more willing to see your own
beliefs questioned than those of others. Admirable in the abstract, but
it leaves you defending some godawful stuff.
Of course, being a skeptic, I should point out that I haven't SEEN
you act on this philosophy. Your actions up to now would indicate
that you don't hold it. I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong
about this, though. Please do post your findings, positive or
negative, here on sci.skeptic. Amid the flames and noise, you will
find resources that will help you in your investigation that you
might not find on alt.paranormal. I don't mean people who know
a lot about history, although you will find those here, too. I mean
people interested in serious, hard inquiry. I look forward to your
post.
RM...@psuvm.psu.edu
Laudermann) says:
>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
>I wouldn't be surprised if I was) but I thought that all life evolved from the
>sea. And after air-breathers developed, reptiles and mammals evolved. The
>common ancestor of reptiles and mammals could not be considered either (that's
>the bit I'm not sure of... am I right or wrong?) and therefore we are not
>*descended* from reptiles. And if there are no reptiles in our ancestry,
>there
>cannot possibly be anything reptilian about us.
This is, as I understand it, one of those cases where one lineage
truly did evolve _from_ another. In the cases of the mammals, we've been
traced back pretty conclusively to the Therapsid reptiles. The origin of
reptiles pre-dating the Therapsids by a significant span. Similar story,
though more recent, for the avians. I don't recall their ancestor.
The sequence goes:
Fish -> Amphibians -> Reptiles -> Mammals
Reptiles -> Birds
(Sequence in terms of who is derived from whom at this level, doesn't
tell you if that frog is your umpteenth ancestor since it leaves out
species and genus.)
(Don't ask about insects. There's too many is all I know.)
Bob Grumbine
Mike Brady
>things about my underlying psyche. I do not *know* that I lived before.
>I only *know* that the experiences I had in that class were valid in
>one way or another for me. Other possiblilties might explain the
>experiences that people have in such classes... perhaps we could discuss
>those in the paranormal and trna newsgroups... I would be happy to
>welcome skeptics into the discussion if they would only contribute something
>and be discerning, not attack and be judgemental.
An experience I had which may be of interest follows. I have
posted it to alt.dreams before so it may be strangely familiar
...
I had a dream in which I was chased through a battle field by
two men with bows and arrows. I sought refuge in a tower on a
hill, but was pursued by the bowmen who fired arrows at me as I
climbed the tower. The arrows hit me and I died. After I died
I saw a stone plaque on the ground with the words Henry VI on
it. This upset me greatly and I tried to pull the plaque off
the floor but couldn't.
When I woke up I remembered all the details of the dream
clearly. I told some friends about it and remarked I would find
out how Henry VI died. He doesn't receive much of a write up in
the history books, but what I found staggered me. He had been
captured in a battle, one in the War of the Roses. He was
ransomed, but later in life was put in the Tower of London and
executed! Okay, my dream didn't exactly tie up but I found the
resemblances quite amazing.
But what this information also brought to mind was a few weeks
before I had been in York and visited the Castle Museum. There
I had skip-read a board which contained information on the War
of the Roses. I wasn't that interested and the information
didn't really register, but it mentioned Henry VI and must have
contained the information which was later encrypted in my dream.
In this case it was easy for me to make the connection between
what appeared to be evidence of a past life and where the
information had come from (reading 'War of the Roses' immediately
made me cast my mind back to my visit to York). I don't remember
reading all the details of Henry, but I do remember his biography
was on that board. Given a little more time to forget, or
someone less obviously connected with a past experience of mine
and I could have convinced myself I had lived before.
For those of you that think it isn't possible to dream your own
death look at alt.dreams for plenty of other examples refuting
that myth.
Mike.
///////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
//// It was me, not the company, although I was there.\\\\
// I may be a germ up Gods nose having the most \\
//// unusual dream or else ... shshsh ... WOW ... it's real !!
///////////////////////////////\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
Homer Smith
> Karen: Are you by any chance a blond?
> You're forgetting, carl, that we're skeptics-- and to Karen, that
>means that we're closed-minded, unspiritual, patehtically mechanically-minded
>thuds who'll never experience the inexpressibly joy of past-life regression
>or paranormal events. In fact, no matter how open-minded we are, if we raise
>even a hint of doubt, to Karen we're just raising doubts because we're
>(ahem)_ afraid of the paranormal.
> You realize that nothing will ever shake Karen of this belief, so why
>even bother arguing?
This is stupid and insulting. In the first place to denigrate Karen's
state of{mind as BELIEF is over stepping your own knowledge of the
situation as Karen may very well have perfect CERTAINTY of her own
memory. It has become socially fashionable amoung the really decadent
and degraded to consider all memory questionable. But if you are
sure that you ate breakfast this morning, you can also be sure
you ate breakfast 1000 years ago.
The main problem with remembering your own past lives and deaths,
is not remembering all the great people you were or all the horrible things
that others did to you, but remembering what YOU DID that you regretted
and wished had never happened. This is the only reason, IMHO, that
anyone has any trouble with past lives, mainly they have a few confessions
to make. People who can only remember being burned at the stake are
using it as a justification for having invented the process in the first
place. You see if they can complain about all the horrible things done
to them, they dont have to feel so bad about all the horrible things
they did to others BEFORE AND AFTER.
The end result of regret life after life is becoming a mortal
with no memory at all. Its a cop out. Most of them know it.
THEY DON'T WANT TO BE IMMORTAL and in the words of Percival,
during the inbetween lives experience where everyone has to
confront and feel all the pain they have ever caused to another
being, most people would rather be in Hell forever rather than face the
light of beauty that reminds them how far they have fallen.
So let's ask why these mortals are so loud in their denials and
demands for proof. It is only because they are afraid that you might
actually have some. They know you are immortal, they want you to
think you arn't. Perhaps they have fallen for their own game, but
its mainly a game of denying past track guilt.
For example perhaps you can't remember that breakfast you ate 1000 years
ago because you ate your mother.
Homer Wilson Smith
'Class is an attitude, that ALL should live forever and be my friend.'
'Cool is the ability to maintain Class.'
cc...@cc.newcastle.edu.au
(Karen Millar) writes:>
> In my understanding, you have missed the point entirely, Brian.
> You *are* yourself hooked up to something that may be referred to as
> higher power, or collective unconscious, or god, (not necessarily aliens).
> All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your
> self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an
> easy task, but it is do-able... the information you desire is free for the
> taking, if you can but unlock your consciousnes, as Einstein and many
> many others have done. It is getting in tune with how the universe works,
> and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians
> are trying to get across our thick sculls is that
>
> IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP!
>
>
> --
> Love is the answer...
> Communication Facilities Designer
> Freelance in the Land of Enchantment Albuquerque, NM
> kar...@yenta.alb.nm.us (505) 292-3445
This is getting beyong a joke. Time to move on....
Hey Karen, how many *blondes* does it take to:
- make a "perfectly real honest experience"?
- make a past life? or should that be vice-versa??
Karen Millar
>In article <1991Sep28....@yenta.alb.nm.us>, kar...@yenta.alb.nm.us
> (Karen Millar) writes:>
>> In my understanding, you have missed the point entirely, Brian.
>> You *are* yourself hooked up to something that may be referred to as
>> higher power, or collective unconscious, or god, (not necessarily aliens).
>> All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your
>> self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an
>> easy task, but it is do-able... the information you desire is free for the
>> taking, if you can but unlock your consciousnes, as Einstein and many
>> many others have done. It is getting in tune with how the universe works,
>> and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians
>> are trying to get across our thick sculls is that
>>
>> IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP!
>>
>This is getting beyong a joke. Time to move on....
^^^^^^
does this guy have a code in his node??
>Hey Karen, how many *blondes* does it take to:
> - make a "perfectly real honest experience"?
> - make a past life? or should that be vice-versa??
Who *IS* this guy??
Pete Hardie
> This is stupid and insulting. In the first place to denigrate Karen's
>state of{mind as BELIEF is over stepping your own knowledge of the
>situation as Karen may very well have perfect CERTAINTY of her own
>memory. It has become socially fashionable amoung the really decadent
>and degraded to consider all memory questionable. But if you are
>sure that you ate breakfast this morning, you can also be sure
>you ate breakfast 1000 years ago.
I guess I am 'really decadent and degraded', since I have memories that I
*know* are false - notably, I 'remembered' kissing a certain girl at a
party during high school; I knew it happened. Then I tried to remember
when exactly that party had been, and I realized that there was *never*
such a party, and I had dreamed the whole incident.
A man in Atlanta 'knew' that alien voices were telling him to kill people
who were trying to control him - he bought a pistol and opened fire in
a shopping mall. Are you willing to accept that he is telling the truth
and there are aliens doing these things?
> The main problem with remembering your own past lives and deaths,
>is not remembering all the great people you were or all the horrible things
>that others did to you, but remembering what YOU DID that you regretted
>and wished had never happened. This is the only reason, IMHO, that
>anyone has any trouble with past lives, mainly they have a few confessions
>to make. People who can only remember being burned at the stake are
>using it as a justification for having invented the process in the first
>place. You see if they can complain about all the horrible things done
>to them, they dont have to feel so bad about all the horrible things
>they did to others BEFORE AND AFTER.
What about those people who have no trouble admitting their sins for this
lise? Why are they reluctant to admit those of a previous life, especially
if they are no worse? I doubt that those living in Europe in the Middle
Ages were as a rule more likely to do horrible things than the current
crop of people.
> So let's ask why these mortals are so loud in their denials and
>demands for proof. It is only because they are afraid that you might
>actually have some. They know you are immortal, they want you to
>think you arn't. Perhaps they have fallen for their own game, but
>its mainly a game of denying past track guilt.
How about this reason: we want something more certain than personal
testimony, which is known to be unreliable. I once *knew* I heard a
person clear their throat while standing outside my second-story bedroom
window that had *no* place for someone to stand. Of course, there was
no person, and the noise was a motorcycle engine.
Eric Ant Von Laudermann
>demands for proof. It is only because they are afraid that you might
>actually have some. They know you are immortal, they want you to
>think you arn't. Perhaps they have fallen for their own game, but
>its mainly a game of denying past track guilt.
Gee, someone is asking for proof. I wonder why he's asking for proof.
Could it be that he wants proof? Naawwwwww. If he wanted proof, he
wouldn't demand it. He must NOT want proof! Yeah, that's it! He
really DOES know that the paranormal exists, he really DOES "know you
are immortal", he just likes to PRETEND! NOBODY is out of touch with his
past lives! NOBODY is completely ignorant of the paranormal! NOBODY
wants to see first-hand evidence of the paranormal! NOBODY is left in
the dark, they're just trying to TRICK you into disbelieving yourself!
There is NO SUCH THING as a person who needs HELP getting in touch
with paranormal phenomena!!! There is NO SUCH THING as a person who HONESTLY
DOESN'T BELIEVE in reincarnation!!!
BULLSHIT!!!
Reality check:
Has it ever occured to you that there ARE people who DON'T "know you are
immortal"? Has it ever occured to you that the reason some people demand
proof is that THEY WANT PROOF? How can you possibly not realize this most
OBVIOUS concept? Why do the PSI-people think that all doubt is a conspiracy?
It's just DOUBT!!! REAL doubt! We're not trying to trick you into anything!
In fact, most of the time we ask for proof because we think YOU'RE trying to
trick US!
I've been looking for evidence of the paranormal all my life, and even with my
recent intensive search, I have come up with zilch. This search, this quest,
is now the main goal in my life. To find definite, concrete, first-hand
evidence. Because I WANT to find the evidence. Not because I want to make
sure there isn't any. (I hope you realized that what you said was really
stupid. If I was afraid of getting proof, why would I ask for it?)
This goal is a huge weight constantly on my mind. To put it mildly, I would
like to have the problem solved. I WANT to believe in PSI. How can I convince
you (psychic and paranormal practitioners, as a group) of this? What else do I
have to do? And it never occurs to you that someone could be asking for
proof because they WANT it? Are you really that pig-headed? Are you so proud
of the priveleged group you belong to -- the "believers" -- that you REFUSE
TO HELP OTHERS GET IN? Are my efforts being BLOCKED? Did one of you put a
HEX on me or something? Just what the fuck is your problem?
I've tried calmly discussing these things with you people. Even when I flame,
and that's very rare, I try to keep calm. But now I find out that the PSI-
people are JUST AS CYNICAL AS THE CYNICS, and are INTENTIONALLY HIDING THE
TRUTH. Hey, even if we really ARE afraid of real proof, GIVE IT TO US!!!
Shut us up!!! Get us fucking annoying assholes off your backs!!! Make us
look like the brainless idiots we are!!!
You call us MORTALS? Because we are out of touch with our immortal side?
You'd rather INSULT than HELP? Some higher mental plane! I'd rather BE
mortal than lose my COMPASSION and HUMANITY like you arrogant Elvis-
channeling supreme-being wanna-bes!
There are people here who are honestly looking for information and knowledge,
and if you're not going to HELP people like the human beings you are
descended from, either go back to your fucking alternate dimension and leave
us alone or squash us like the insects we are and get it over with. I'd rather
BE dead -- body AND soul -- than continue chasing after something you're
waving in my face and yanking away every time I get too close.
--E.V.L. (dr...@wpi.wpi.edu) # No amusing and witty quote today, folks.
Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely # I'm pissed.
ed...@verifone.com
>
> Hey Karen, how many *blondes* does it take to:
> - make a "perfectly real honest experience"?
> - make a past life? or should that be vice-versa??
Well, bigotry lives! I had no doubt. Anyone got any good Aussie jokes?
SInce we are going to judge people on hair color, skin, color, religion,
belief systems, gender, language and genetic background, we might as well
include place of residence.
Gee, in fact, culture may be the best reason of all to discriminate!
Perhaps some of you think that bigotry is a joke. You've just been on the
wrong end of it. THings change, remember.
--
===========================================================================
= Ed L'Esperance - P.O. Box 4635, Kane`ohe, Hawai`i 96744 U.S.A. Earth =
= Anthropologist, Writer, Editor, etc. -*- UUCP%"Ed...@VeriFone.Com" =
= DISCLAIMER: Opinions Copyright 1991 Ed L'Esperance. All Rights Reserved =
===========================================================================
Carl J Lydick
>In article <1991Oct10.1...@cc.newcastle.edu.au>, cc...@cc.newcastle.edu.au writes:
>
>>
>> Hey Karen, how many *blondes* does it take to:
>> - make a "perfectly real honest experience"?
>> - make a past life? or should that be vice-versa??
>
>Well, bigotry lives! I had no doubt. Anyone got any good Aussie jokes?
>SInce we are going to judge people on hair color, skin, color, religion,
>belief systems, gender, language and genetic background, we might as well
>include place of residence.
>
>Gee, in fact, culture may be the best reason of all to discriminate!
>
>Perhaps some of you think that bigotry is a joke. You've just been on the
>wrong end of it. THings change, remember.
Is pointing out to someone who sounds like a stereotypical blonde that she
sounds like a stereotypical blonde bigotry?
cc...@cc.newcastle.edu.au
(Karen Millar)
flames:
> cc...@cc.newcastle.edu.au writes:
>
>>In article <1991Sep28....@yenta.alb.nm.us>, kar...@yenta.alb.nm.us
>> (Karen Millar) writes:>
>>> ......stuff deleted....The main issue that the Pleiadians
>>> are trying to get across our thick sculls is that
>>>
>>> IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP!
>>>
>
>>This is getting beyong a joke. Time to move on....
> ^^^^^^
> does this guy have a code in his node??
Why, do I sound a bit nasal? Actually I haven't had a cold in my nose for
quite a while. As for code in my node, my server wouldn't work without some
code, so I guess I must have. :-)
>
>>Hey Karen, how many *blondes* does it take to:
>> - make a "perfectly real honest experience"?
>> - make a past life? or should that be vice-versa??
>
> Who *IS* this guy??
(Mail me)
I'm not the type to have a fancy .sig or a smart love message at the end.
But that's no reason to jump to the conclusion that I'm a guy! Your prejudices
are showing. Hope you don't do all your research that way.
>
>
> --
> Love is the answer...
> Communication Facilities Designer
> Freelance in the Land of Enchantment Albuquerque, NM
> kar...@yenta.alb.nm.us (505) 292-3445
BTW, You didn't answer the blonde questions that you assumed were jokes!
I still say the PT's are boring.
The Technicolour Throw-up
> Well, bigotry lives! I had no doubt. Anyone got any good Aussie jokes?
Q: Why are Irish jokes always so simple?
A: So that Australians can understand them!
> include place of residence.
Why not? Australian jokes are quite popular here in NZ. Its my
understanding that kiwi jokes are equally popular in Australia.
--
Just my two rubber ningis worth.
Name: Michael Chisnall email: chis...@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz
cc...@cc.newcastle.edu.au
>
> Well, bigotry lives! I had no doubt. Anyone got any good Aussie jokes?
> SInce we are going to judge people on hair color, skin, color, religion,
> belief systems, gender, language and genetic background, we might as well
> include place of residence.
>
> Gee, in fact, culture may be the best reason of all to discriminate!
>
> Perhaps some of you think that bigotry is a joke. You've just been on the
> wrong end of it. THings change, remember.
>
Well, my WorPerfect Thesaurus defines bigot as racist, sexist, crank, chauvinist
BUT hair colour doesn't fit any of these - remember males are blondes, and also
blondes can be made from a bottle. Australia's EEO &AA laws are very strict, but
don't preclude blonde jokes - which are taking the country by storm at the
moment. What about *bald* jokes? What about calling aliens GREYS!!! or
environmentalists Greens!!!
As for the rest of the list I agree with you, but I won't flame you if you tell
an aussie joke, as long as it is funny.:-)
The point was that Karen is too serious. Chill out man.
ed...@verifone.com
> Is pointing out to someone who sounds like a stereotypical blonde that she
> sounds like a stereotypical blonde bigotry?
IMHO, having and holding such a stereotype is bigotry. Not only will it
maky you act differently toward people whom you perceive to fit the
stereotype, it will condition the perceptions of others.
Many other anthropologists and many sociologists share that same humble
opinion; we have seen it in action. (Probably even a few psychologists,
too!)
Don_-_...@cup.portal.com
read the article though. Don
Deep inside your brain there exists a small but powerful primeval center that
is every bit as violent and reptilian in nature as the brain of a lizard or
crocodile.
quoted from an article called Ritual and Deceit by Mary
Long Science Digest Nov/Dec 1980
Kevin D. Quitt
Puh-lease. This has nothing to do with a reptilian brain-stem. The
brain-stem is "reptilian" because phisiologically and functionally it is
(almost) identical to the brain-stem found in reptiles. This has nothing
whatsoever to do with "a small but powerful primeval center..."
--
_
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq k...@3D.com
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
Karen Millar
>In article <1991Oct5.0...@trl.oz.au> j...@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) writes:
>>>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
>You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
The theories of evolution are being challenged even as we speak.
Check out the October issue of OMNI magazine for some hints and references
to the research that is going on. From there you should be able to
contact people, or be referred to scientific journals that will give
you a more complete picture of the evolving science of evolution :-)
Your favorite blond and mine, Karen.
Erik F. Andersen
>
>
>
>>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
>>sea. And after air-breathers developed, reptiles and mammals evolved. The
>>common ancestor of reptiles and mammals could not be considered either (that's
>>the bit I'm not sure of... am I right or wrong?) and therefore we are not
>>*descended* from reptiles. And if there are no reptiles in our ancestry, there
>>cannot possibly be anything reptilian about us.
>
>argue ab absurdo). I have nephews and nieces (courtesy of my cousins and siblings).
>And I am not -- repeat NOT -- descended from them (would you believe?)
>And if there are no Anita's and Jean-Luc's et al. in my ancestry, there cannot
>possibly be anything Anita-like and Jean-Luc-like about me. Uh? Come again?
You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
The arguments against them (Post-Darwin) are *very* strong
indeed. In my opinion even strong enough to totally dismissing them as
an attempt to replace religion with science.
I do not claim to be an expert in this field (because I am not), but
you should try to do some research on your own. I think you would
be very surprised of what you find - or rather of all the questions
you find.
Erik F. Andersen, Denmark
E-mail : e...@iesd.auc.dk
Daniel A Ashlock
(Karen Millar) writes:
> e...@iesd.auc.dk (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>
> >In article <1991Oct5.0...@trl.oz.au> j...@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques
Guy) writes:
> >>>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
>
> >You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
>
> The theories of evolution are being challenged even as we speak.
> Check out the October issue of OMNI magazine for some hints and references
> to the research that is going on. From there you should be able to
> contact people, or be referred to scientific journals that will give
> you a more complete picture of the evolving science of evolution :-)
>
> Your favorite blond and mine, Karen.
>
Omni? Mff Mff Mff (gurgl gurgl) -wheeze-
What _did_ they say?
Lawrence C. Foard
>In article <1991Oct5.0...@trl.oz.au> j...@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) writes:
>>No-one said we were descended from reptiles (except creationists trying to
>>argue ab absurdo). I have nephews and nieces (courtesy of my cousins and siblings).
>>And I am not -- repeat NOT -- descended from them (would you believe?)
>>And if there are no Anita's and Jean-Luc's et al. in my ancestry, there cannot
>>possibly be anything Anita-like and Jean-Luc-like about me. Uh? Come again?
>
>You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
Anyone can be wrong. Of course creationist won't admit that they can be wrong.
>The arguments against them (Post-Darwin) are *very* strong
>indeed. In my opinion even strong enough to totally dismissing them as
>an attempt to replace religion with science.
What arguments? The only argument I ever see is "the bible says so" sorry this
doesn't cut it. I can't believe that we are arguing about mythology vs.
science on a network that would not exist if it were not for science. What has
mythology achieved (other than death and destruction).
>I do not claim to be an expert in this field (because I am not), but
>you should try to do some research on your own. I think you would
>be very surprised of what you find - or rather of all the questions
>you find.
Try computer simulated evolution, you will be surprised with the results it
can achieve in 8 hours of run time.
--
Disclaimer: Opinions are based on logic rather than biblical "fact". ------
Hackers do it for fun. | First they came for the drug users, I said \ /
"Profesionals" do it for money. | nothing, then they came for hackers, \ /
Managers have others do it for them. | I said nothing... STOP W.O.D. \/
Kevin D. Quitt
>e...@iesd.auc.dk (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>
>>In article <1991Oct5.0...@trl.oz.au> j...@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) writes:
>>>>Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and
>
>>You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
>
> The theories of evolution are being challenged even as we speak.
>Check out the October issue of OMNI magazine for some hints and references
>to the research that is going on. From there you should be able to
>contact people, or be referred to scientific journals that will give
>you a more complete picture of the evolving science of evolution :-)
>
This article does nothing to refute evolution. What it states is
that some single-celled creatures have the ability to mutate in response
to a lack of nutrition in their surroundings.
The only thing this challenges is the idea that the growth of a new
colony capable of feeding from the new environment comes from a few
individuals that had that capability to begin with, and the new colony
consist of their descendents. This idea is certainly true in higher
(i.e. multi-cellular) organisms, but apparently not in single-cells.
The idea actually makes a great deal of sense. "Hey - there's no food
out there - I'll starve - maybe if I mix up some of my genes, I can find
a way to eat something out there (repeat until there's food out there)"
Donald Yett
>In article <1991Oct18....@yenta.alb.nm.us> kar...@yenta.alb.nm.us (Karen Millar) writes:
>>e...@iesd.auc.dk (Erik F. Andersen) writes:
>>
>>>In article <1991Oct5.0...@trl.oz.au> j...@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) writes:
[Nested quotes concerning Omni article removed]
>
> This article does nothing to refute evolution. What it states is
>that some single-celled creatures have the ability to mutate in response
>to a lack of nutrition in their surroundings.
True, it should be obvious, if proper nutrition isn't maintained, cells will
degenerate...
> The idea actually makes a great deal of sense. "Hey - there's no food
>out there - I'll starve - maybe if I mix up some of my genes, I can find
>a way to eat something out there (repeat until there's food out there)"
A cell will use itself for food before it looks for it... If it doesn't die
first...
But then again, that is just layman's common-sense... I am no expert in the
field of microbiology..
> 96.37% of all statistics are made up.
how true.. Or twisted to fit.. If you try hard enough, a square peg will
fit into a round hole [grabbing sledgehammer]
--
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
| dy...@phad.hsc.usc.edu | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed,
| Just my opinions! | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner
+-------------------------+------------------------------------------------
cc...@cc.newcastle.edu.au
>
> You could easely be wrong in beleaving the theories of evolution.
> The arguments against them (Post-Darwin) are *very* strong
> indeed. In my opinion even strong enough to totally dismissing them as
> an attempt to replace religion with science.
>
> I do not claim to be an expert in this field (because I am not), but
> you should try to do some research on your own. I think you would
> be very surprised of what you find - or rather of all the questions
> you find.
>
> Erik F. Andersen, Denmark
REALLY?
Compare these comments to the article I posted, titled EVOLUTION v2 !!!
BTW how do you know the arguments against Post-Darwinism are very strong indeed
if you are not an expert in the field ???
Jason Haines
>What arguments? The only argument I ever see is "the bible says so" sorry this
>doesn't cut it. I can't believe that we are arguing about mythology vs.
>science on a network that would not exist if it were not for science. What has
>mythology achieved (other than death and destruction).
Hey Larry, I think science has done more for death and destruction than
mythology, all the weapons of the last six thousand years are the product of
scientific procedures - plenty have been killed by slings, catapults, woomeras,
arrows, boiling oil, bullets, thermonuclear warheads, propane bombs - all
tested in the field... but originated in the laboratory of the mind.
Maybe gravity lenses and dark matter seem a little like 'science fantasy',
but the human race could be obliterated by the application of these ideas
by an intelligence capable of acting upon such. Asteroids could be used to
kick the shit out of us, without resorting to petty fission-fusing devices
that couldn't deflect one by more than a degree of arc.
The bible has to be left behind as old mythology, but only once it has been
comprehensively analysed by the scientific community, and explained to the
greater public in common terms, not jargon. It's easy to translate one form
of jargon into another, a real talent lies in rationalising an entire work
steeped in literary devices and religious metaphors into something more
useful to modern man. Leaving it up to undisciplined interpretation only
serves those who gain from the ignorance of the common man.
--
Jason Haines, aka Baron
INTERNET:ja...@runxtsa.runx.oz.au UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason
ACSNet: ja...@runxtsa.runx.oz
_______________________________________________________________________
dhaley
>>In article <1991Oct5.0...@trl.oz.au> j...@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) writes:
>>The arguments against them (Post-Darwin) are *very* strong
>>indeed. In my opinion even strong enough to totally dismissing them as
>>an attempt to replace religion with science.
>
>What arguments? The only argument I ever see is "the bible says so" sorry this
>doesn't cut it. I can't believe that we are arguing about mythology vs.
>science on a network that would not exist if it were not for science. What has
>mythology achieved (other than death and destruction).
I have seen a few of these arguments put out by religous organisations claiming
To scientifically disprove evolution. They mostly follow the lines that because
something dealing with evolution has since been proved to be untrue, then the
whole concept of evolution must also be untrue. The ones I have so far read are
properganderish. What has this to do with alt.alien.visitors? I must have missed
a few posts?
I think I'll borrow this disclaimer...
Erik F. Andersen
I am not myself arguing against the evolution-theories; that I'm not
qualified to do. I create an opinion based on what experts have to say
(obviously someone arguing against the orthodox ideas may not be regarded
as an expert by other scientists).
In the original posting, I reacted to the statement that we
are descendants from fish (reptiles!!!). I do not beleave that this
is proven, and as long as there are sound arguments against it, I won't
beleave it. In laboratories, experiments are made with flies and mice
where they are exposed to huge amounts of x-rays - but what does
it prove? - that less than 1% of all mutations are to the better, and
that the species are very stabile (not likely to changes). We have
yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat. Of course
one could always argue, that the enourmous amount of time it took
before man appered could have accomplished anything; but isn't that
a matter of belief?
If it is accepted that the universe was once only a seed, why then,
must everything else be logical?
wolv...@pontryagin.aa.washington.edu
|> The bible has to be left behind as old mythology, but only once it has been
|> comprehensively analysed by the scientific community, and explained to the
|> greater public in common terms, not jargon. It's easy to translate one form
|> of jargon into another, a real talent lies in rationalising an entire work
|> steeped in literary devices and religious metaphors into something more
|> useful to modern man. Leaving it up to undisciplined interpretation only
|> serves those who gain from the ignorance of the common man.
Dear Mr. Haines,
Beautifully stated, but extremely wrong. You put far to much faith into the 'scientific community.' They don't have a monopoly on truth, furthermore there business doesn't even deal with truth. Additionally, the 'real talent' lies in using intelligence, through an objective window, in order to gain knowledge and properly direct one's faith. Anyone can rationalize anything; there is no foundation here.
GB, Hagen
Kevin D. Quitt
> In the original posting, I reacted to the statement that we
>are descendants from fish (reptiles!!!). I do not beleave that this
>is proven, and as long as there are sound arguments against it, I won't
>beleave it.
What kind of "proof" do you require?
> In laboratories, experiments are made with flies and mice
>where they are exposed to huge amounts of x-rays - but what does
>it prove? - that less than 1% of all mutations are to the better,
Probably much less than this. So what? Mutation isn't the only
source of evolutionary change, merely the fastest.
> and
>that the species are very stabile (not likely to changes).
This is false, and based on word-games. The way to define a species
is by its characteristics, and whether it can breed with other groups
with similar characteristics. Once a species has been defined this way,
the definition isn't going to change. On the other hand, the animals
are free to adapt (and they do), eventually eventually some not matching
the original definition very well. Some still will match the original
definition, so it appears that the original definition for the species
is still correct; hence your 'stability'.
This is the same fallacy as considering a sports team to be the same
team year after year. It isn't, although characteristics will carry
over and take time to change. (Yes, I know this is a pretty weak
analogy, but it *does* make the point).
> We have
>yet to see a mouse being turned into a rat.
True, but we have seen some species of animals produce other
species, as defined by the fact that they can't interbreed. Same for a
number of plant species.
Part of *this* fallacy is the idea that one species *turns into*
another species. This is not what happens. The new species splinters
off from the original, because of geological or metabolic isolation. If
the speciation is a reult of change in the environment, the original
species may die off, but it didn't "change into" the new species.
> If it is accepted that the universe was once only a seed, why then,
>must everything else be logical?
Who accepts this? And who accepts that the universe is logical?
--
_
Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq k...@3D.com
3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355
VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200
96.37% of all statistics are made up.
Crunchy Frog
Another point, you (Erik) say that some of the arguments against evolution
are strong. What exactly do you mean by evolution? If you mean that the
theory as laid out by Darwin is not specifically accurate then you won't
surprise many people here. Darwin's theory of evolution has been enhanced,
modified, and extended to take into account new knowlege. A number of people
I know use this to mean that "Evolution is no longer taken seriously by
scientists". Stephen J Gould is himself a proponent of punctuated
equilibrium, and not of "*Darwinian* evolution", but he doesn't believe that
evolution is invalid.
If you mean the general theory of evolution, the whole concept, is under fire
and has some valid arguments against it, I would really like to see them.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions above are not mine. I stole them all from the person sitting next
to me. If you don't like them, I can get you his address and you can kill him.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan "Long live the Goon Show" Morgan | "You rotton swine, you!" - Bluebottle
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Watch out! This gun is loaded and so am I." - Major Denis Bloodnok
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-Yakaboo!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------