Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

Love spell question.

15 views
Skip to first unread message

catherine yronwode

unread,
Feb 29, 2004, 11:02:33 PM2/29/04
to
Mike Foster wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm new here and to magick as well, so please excuse my inexperience.
> While I believe there is more to life than we can see or science can
> explain, I am a little skeptical. I am also desperate and ready to
> take a leap of faith.
>
> I am looking for a spell to make a specific person fall in love with
> me. We are alread fiendly, but as I am a client of hers the
> relationship has been very "professional."
>
> I am looking at sites like www.magic-love-spells.com
> www.calastrology.com and www.spellmaker.com
>
> Does anybody know anything about these sites? Also, given that I do
> have some faith that this is possible, what are my chances that this
> is really going to work? I'm sort of pinning all my hopes to this.
>
> Thanks,
> Mike

If i were you (but i'm not) i would try to work a love spell that
does not require so much expense. Being "desperate" as you say
you are, it is probable that you will not have great success with
your first attempts. In my experience, the best time to begin the
practice of magic is when one is relaxed, confident, and suffused
with a sense of power and strength. Of course, many folks report
that their first successful magical act was born of desperation
-- but i have heard from as many or more who fail at their first
attempts due to being over-anxious and only begin to succeed when
they start to feel confident in their abilities.

The best love spells are often quite simple -- a honey jar, a
pair of lodestones, some of your own spiritual and sexual essence
slipped into a drink offered to the one you wish to attract. I
have used such spells myself, never paying for the "secret," just
working with common herbs and minerals, using well-known
folkloric spells -- and i have had some great successes. Because
such love spells worked well for me, i long ago put together a
web page presenting dozens of such spells. The information is
completely free. The tools may be as simple as a 4" red candle or
a few herbs steeped in wine -- or there may be no "tools" per se,
as in some of the spells from the Chaos Magic and hoodoo
traditions, where a glance or a bit of sexual fluid may be the
entirety of what is needed on the physical plane.

If you want to spend a lot of money at those places, you are
welcome to do so, of course. Meanwhile, the collections of free
love spells collection i have assembled is indexed here:

http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html

In the spirit of full disclosure, i will mention that i do own
and operate a small spiritual supply company, but there is no
obligation to buy from me if you use the free spells i provide at
my site, as most of the ingredients can be found in rock shops,
grocery stores, or local occult shops around the world. Even the
dressing oils mentioned in some of the spells can be home-made,
and there are free recipes online for several popular
love-drawing oils at this web page of mine:

http://www.luckymojo.com/spells.recipes.html

Of all the love spells i have tried in my 56 years, i can
sincerely recommend those performed with sexual fluids,
lodestones, and candles as the strongest in my personal
experience -- and it is safe to say that no one at any of the
companies you listed is going to work with your sexual fluids --
only you can do that.

Good luck.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

catherine yronwode

unread,
Mar 1, 2004, 1:53:32 AM3/1/04
to
Typo correction for a URL:

catherine yronwode wrote:

> there are free recipes online for several popular
> love-drawing oils at this web page of mine:
>
> http://www.luckymojo.com/spells.recipes.html

Should be: http://www.luckymojo.com/spells/recipes.html

Cordially,

cat yronwode

Jim

unread,
Apr 4, 2004, 8:10:14 AM4/4/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4042DFD6...@luckymojo.com...

Jim

unread,
Apr 4, 2004, 8:38:53 AM4/4/04
to
Hi Cat,
Do you have more love spells? I have a tough case here and been struggling
with no success for the apast 8 months. I need help.
Thanks.
Jim

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:4042B7C2...@luckymojo.com...

Mary

unread,
Apr 4, 2004, 5:06:39 PM4/4/04
to
Why can't you all just.. do a spell yourself?
Really?

I mean - wouldn't it make more sense to do it yourself, then to do something
someone already did?

I'm not being judgemental,
I'm just curious

:)


"Jim" <ki...@cbn.net.id> wrote in message news:4070...@news.cbn.net.id...

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 5, 2004, 1:16:16 AM4/5/04
to
Jim wrote:
>
> Hi Cat,
> Do you have more love spells? I have a tough case here and been
> struggling with no success for the apast 8 months. I need help.
> Thanks.
> Jim

Set yourself a time limit for this work and if it does not
conclude satisfactorily in that allotted time, move on. If you
have had no results in 8 months, it is highly likely that the
person you are working on does not want you and is capable of
repelling both magical and physical advances. Remember, magic is
no more guaranteed than prayer or than physical effort are
guaranteed to work.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

Hoodoo in Theory and Practice - http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html

Jim

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 8:17:48 AM4/9/04
to
I'm actually a sceptic and this is maybe it wont work. She's a catholic
fanatic and her room has numerous religious items, this may add to the
"fortress" as one physcic told me. A coercive spell is a way to go if I were
to penerate the defenses. Any comments please?


"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:4070EDAE...@luckymojo.com...

Tom

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 11:03:48 AM4/9/04
to

"Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:4076948d$1...@news.cbn.net.id...

> I'm actually a sceptic and this is maybe it wont work. She's a catholic
> fanatic and her room has numerous religious items, this may add to the
> "fortress" as one physcic told me. A coercive spell is a way to go if I
were
> to penerate the defenses. Any comments please?

Fighting her defenses will get you nowhere. Coopt them. Make her defenses
work for you.

Become a fanatic catholic yourself.

Can you?


Jim

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 12:34:08 PM4/9/04
to
No, not now. But, phycologically you're right.
I'm a born catholic myself but far from fanatic. It is not the road I'd like
to walk now. I'm obessed for 8 months and would like to return the favour.
Out of great curiousity, I'd like to see if black magick coercive
controlling love spell will work, and I'll take the risk of a backfire.
In luckymojo.com there's several spells. I'm defenitely will NOT boil or
harm an animal as suggested in Black cat spell. But "love me or die"
http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#lovemeordiejackball spell is quite
tempting, but indicated as a spell directed for a woman to bind a man. Did I
get it wrong? I'm interested in performing a spell with graveyard
dirt/goofer dust. In fact, I happen to possess a dirt from a local ancient
sacret graveyard dirt, but currently have no idea how to use them properly.
Sprinkle in in her yard where she will step on it? What else?


"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:oXydc.2456$k05....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Rick

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 1:26:38 PM4/9/04
to
Jim wrote:

> I'm defenitely will NOT boil or
> harm an animal as suggested in Black cat spell.

It's always good to set ethical boundaries before doing spells.

> But "love me or die"

> [link deleted] spell is quite
> tempting,

Just so we have this straight, if your spell can't make her love you
you're willing for the spell to kill her? But you won't boil a cat?

That's very interesting.


Rick

Brett

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 1:45:41 PM4/9/04
to
On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 10:26:38 -0700, Rick
<psy...@iopanIsRetired.yahoo.com> muttered intensely:

>
>Just so we have this straight, if your spell can't make her love you
>you're willing for the spell to kill her? But you won't boil a cat?
>

What did the cat ever do to him?

But hey, if she's not willing to love him, then the bitch deserves to
die? Right? <rolls eyes>

(Speaks volumes about what he calls love.)

****
Brett (He's just some guy, you know?)

"Fair" is a Human Ideological Concept.

Jim

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 2:42:01 PM4/9/04
to
> What did the cat ever do to him?
>
> But hey, if she's not willing to love him, then the bitch deserves to
> die? Right? <rolls eyes>

LOL.
Right on.


"Brett" <xxbw...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:fbod701jh1rvc6ijs...@4ax.com...

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 6:29:30 PM4/9/04
to
Jim wrote:
>
> "love me or die"
> http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#lovemeordiejackball
> spell is quite tempting, but indicated as a spell
> directed for a woman to bind a man. Did I
> get it wrong?

That is correct -- it is a spell that a woman performs to
coerce a man. To change the gender, use a Queen Elizabeth
Root instead of a John the Conqueror Root. All other gender
references may then be changed and it would be symbolically
appropriate.

> I'm interested in performing a spell with graveyard
> dirt/goofer dust. In fact, I happen to possess
> a dirt from a local ancient
> sacret graveyard dirt, but currently have
> no idea how to use them properly.
> Sprinkle in in her yard where she will step on it? What else?

No, you do not sprinkle it in her yard but on the person (or
on their clothes or in their shoes). There is a graveyard
dirt love spell online about a third of the way down the
Graveyard Dirt page at

http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html

along with an old blues song describing the spell -- and
another version of it using Goofer Dust (a compound made
with graveyard dirt) can be found as Hyatt spell #659 about
a third of the way down the Goofer Dust page at

http://www.luckymojo.com/gooferdust.html

Cordially,

cat yronwode

Herb and Root Magic --- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodooherbmagic.html

Tom

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 8:39:18 PM4/9/04
to

"Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:4076...@news.cbn.net.id...

> No, not now. But, phycologically you're right.
> I'm a born catholic myself but far from fanatic. It is not the road
> I'd like to walk now. I'm obessed for 8 months and would like
> to return the favour.

You're obsession is a weak one, if something as small as changing your
religious habits is too much to ask of you for the hand of the fair maiden
in question. I'm not sure you can summon enough juice to fire up a really
good love spell if that's the limit of what you're willing to do to get the
girl. To make this sort of thing work, especially in tough cases, you have
to be ready to sacrifice a great deal.

> Out of great curiousity, I'd like to see if black magick coercive
> controlling love spell will work, and I'll take the risk of a backfire.

If she's the submissive type, it might work. It probably won't if she's got
a backbone. If she does, she may be stronger than you. Then you'll be the
one dancing and she'll be the one calling the tune. And if she actively
dislikes you for your attempts to bully and coerce her, a very likely
possibility, the tune could be very disagreeable. That's part of the fun of
black magick. It's dangerous. You could get your ass kicked.

> I'm interested in performing a spell with graveyard
> dirt/goofer dust. In fact, I happen to possess a dirt from a local ancient
> sacret graveyard dirt, but currently have no idea how to use them
properly.
> Sprinkle in in her yard where she will step on it? What else?

You may not need anything else. Try it and see.


Tom

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 8:42:36 PM4/9/04
to

"Rick" <psy...@iopanIsRetired.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c56mcg$brl$1...@daisy.noc.ucla.edu...

>
> Just so we have this straight, if your spell can't make her love you
> you're willing for the spell to kill her? But you won't boil a cat?
>
> That's very interesting.

How about this plan? He tells her, "If you don't make love to me, I'll boil
this cat!" Then, if she refuses him and he does have to boil the cat, he
can blame her.


Jim

unread,
Apr 9, 2004, 7:12:17 PM4/9/04
to
Thanks for the tips.
Quote:"Use the pen knife to carve a slit-shaped hole in the root and wedge
your hair and his hair in there together." Is this potion (woman clit on the
jack the conqueror still necesarry? what to do on the substitute: Queen
Elizabeth Root ?

Regarding the dirt:
Hmm... I don't think I have the audacity to throw anything to her Cat.. :)
but I think I can sneak a tiny amount inside her shoe. Just the graveyard
dirt? What else/rituals/ingridients should I do/mix with the graveyard dirt
to bind her love? This graveyard dirt in no usual dirt. It is over 10 year
old in possesion of one of my staff taken from a really powerful spiritual
grave. (there's a magical story behind the accumulation of it) And I'd like
to be well informed on how to properly make a good use of this dirt for
love.

As an example, my staff has sprinkle some of the dirt to his enemy's shop,
and ask beforehand that the spirit on the dirt to stop any sales coming in
for 3 days. According to him, it work immediately! The shop cannot sell
anything for 3 days straight.

Cat, Do you supply most ingridients of love me or die spells?

Regards,
Jim

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:40772618...@luckymojo.com...

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 1:21:32 AM4/10/04
to
Jim wrote:
>
> Thanks for the tips.
> Quote:"Use the pen knife to carve a slit-shaped hole in the root and wedge
> your hair and his hair in there together." Is this potion (woman clit on the
> jack the conqueror) still necesarry? what to do on the substitute: Queen
> Elizabeth Root ?

Well, that is an interesting question. I learned this spell, as i
explained on the web page, from a woman who told me how to use it
on a man. I would not think that carving a penis-shape on the
Queen Elizabeth root would be appropriate, though, and it would
certainly not provide a place to wedge in the hairs. So i'd go
with the slit on that one too. Remember, you are adapting an old
spell to a new use. It's up to you to work with the materials in
a way that suits your own symbological relationship to them.

> Regarding the dirt:
> Hmm... I don't think I have the audacity to throw anything to her Cat.. :)

You need not throw it -- you could put a light dusting of it on
your hand (by carrying it in your pocket) and then put your hand
on her secretly -- for instance on her shoulder or back -- as you
touch her. You don't want to make a big mess, just get some on
her.

> but I think I can sneak a tiny amount inside her shoe.

Putting such powders in the shoes is an ancient African
technique.

> Just the graveyard dirt? What else/rituals/ingridients
> should I do/mix with the graveyard dirt to bind her love?

One version of the spell, given at my site, specifies adding
Vandal Root powder. The other says just to use the graveyard dirt
plain. But there is more to this form of magical rootwork than
just pantomiming an action. You would pray over the dirt and
state your petition to the spirit whose grave it came from. You
are enlisting that spirit of the dead to help you. This is in
line with ancient African magic spells of many types, in which
the spirits of the dead are contacted through what the British
magician Aleister Crowley called a "magical link" -- the link in
this case being to them through their graveyard dirt. Likewise,
in the root spell, the woman you are working on is contacted
through the magical link of her hair.

> This graveyard dirt in no usual dirt. It is over 10 year
> old in possesion of one of my staff taken from a really powerful spiritual
> grave. (there's a magical story behind the accumulation of it) And I'd like
> to be well informed on how to properly make a good use of this dirt for
> love.
>
> As an example, my staff has sprinkle some of the dirt to his enemy's shop,
> and ask beforehand that the spirit on the dirt to stop any sales coming in
> for 3 days. According to him, it work immediately! The shop cannot sell
> anything for 3 days straight.

The spirits of the dead are said to powerful allies if petitioned
with sincerity and if they agree to do the work asked of them.

> Cat, Do you supply most ingridients of love me or die spells?

You already have the graveyard dirt. The other goods i do carry
in my shop, yes. I sell the vandal root as chips rather than
powder, so you would need to grind it up in a coffee grinder, but
everything else would be suitable for use as it comes. The shop
catalogue is online at
http://www.luckymojo.com/catalogue.html

By the way, i am pleased to see that you are not letting the
group's typical skeptical hecklers and anti-magical nay-sayers
bother you. You seem to understand that magic is no more
guaranteed than anything else is -- and that when folks tell you
to seduce her with sweet talk or some other mundane technique,
they are also offering non-guaranteed advice.

In conclusion, i personally would not perform such a coercive
love spell myself -- i prefer willing love -- and i cannot chance
a guess on whether this work will succeed for you or not, but i
congratulate your determination. Do remember what i said about
setting a time limit for the work, though. Set it now, before you
begin the spell-craft itself. I speak from experience (mine and
that of my friends and customers) when i say that i would not
wish you to become more obsessed than you already are if the
spells fail.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

Jim

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 4:03:47 AM4/10/04
to
Thanks Cat, you and your work has been THE ONLY major source of information
that I've learnt a lot from.

It's very unfortunate that I cannot visit or call you due that I live in
Indonesia. However, I've sent email yesterday to you regarding sales and
freight question for luckymojo.com. Please kindly advice.

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:4077866F...@luckymojo.com...

Jim

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 4:12:09 AM4/10/04
to
It is a tough case physcologically and magickaly speaking Tom and she has a
backbone although she does still have feelings toward me as well another
relationship at hand. The good thing is that I'm not as obsessed as before,
but I got to do this to the best effort I can do. If it still fails, gee...
I've acquired lots of interesting info and new experiences in the process.

"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:WmHdc.3781$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

~Jim

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 5:40:22 AM4/10/04
to
Or should I sales question here, Cat?


Tom

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 9:52:34 AM4/10/04
to

"Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:4077...@news.cbn.net.id...

> Thanks Cat, you and your work has been THE ONLY major
> source of information that I've learnt a lot from.

Some people learn from only a few sources. Others learn from many. It
depends on how closed your mind is.


The Natural Philosopher

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 9:59:32 AM4/10/04
to
Tom wrote:


And very few learn anything of value from Cat, and none at all from Tom.

>


Tom

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 6:53:21 PM4/10/04
to

"The Natural Philosopher" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:4077FDC4.3000503@b.c...

As I say, it depends on how closed your mind is.


catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 6:56:45 PM4/10/04
to
Jim wrote:
>
> Thanks Cat, you and your work has
> been THE ONLY major source of information
> that I've learnt a lot from.

Thanks.

> It's very unfortunate that I cannot
> visit or call you due that I live in
> Indonesia. However, I've sent email
> yesterday to you regarding sales and
> freight question for luckymojo.com.
> Please kindly advice.

I do not handle sales for Lucky Mojo. Address your queries
to Susie or Carin at or...@luckymojo.com. Shipping overseas
can be complicated, so be patient with the process and be
prepared to pay a significant amount for the airmail
shipping of anything heavy in weight.

cat yronwode

Lucky Mojo Curio Co. http://www.luckymojo.com/catalogue.html
Send e-mail with your street address to cata...@luckymojo.com
and receive our free catalogue of hoodoo supplies and amulets

~Jim

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 11:11:04 AM4/10/04
to
So far, it is the only source I can get my hands on.
I'm very open to new sources, especially if it comes from you :) as you seem
to be very knowledgable in your stuff.

"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:C_Sdc.3601$k05...@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

~Jim

unread,
Apr 10, 2004, 4:20:53 PM4/10/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message >
> You need not throw it -- you could put a light dusting of it on
> your hand (by carrying it in your pocket) and then put your hand
> on her secretly -- for instance on her shoulder or back -- as you
> touch her. You don't want to make a big mess, just get some on
> her.

Cat, is this what you're talking about? (sprinkling graveyard dirt)
QUOTE:
http://www.luckymojo.com/gooferdust.html
-------------------
659. (What is goofer dust?)

Dey tell me -- now if -- goofer dust is jes' lak if yo' have loved
somebody -- this is whut they tell me, if yo' loved 'em an' they have died
an' been dead fo' a number of yeahs, then yo' goes to this graveyard where
they's been buried an' yo' dig right down underneath dis bo'd, or undah --
jes' lak it was a rock [tombstone] dere of some kind. Yo' git de dust from
there an' yo' sprinkle it on yo' jes' lak yo'd wanta go fo' somebody {just
like you'd sprinkle a love powder on yourself if you wanted to attract
somebody}. Then yo'd sprinkle it on the next person that chew wanta love.
That will make them fall in love with yo'.

{At this point in the interview, some confusion resulted as Hyatt turned his
machine off prematurely and had to re-ask questions, which seems to have
intimidated the interviewee. I have sharply condensed what follows to avoid
repetition.}

(You goofer them you say. What do you mean by goofer them?...Is that doing
them good or doing them harm?)

Well, yo'd be making them love yo'...Dat means dat chew be in love wit'
me -- jes' lak if ah would wanta make yo' love me, den ah'd have tuh
continue jes' keep it on yo'. {In other words, goofer dust from the grave of
a deceased lover produces thrall-like love, not natural love, and the dust
must be reapplied continually to keep the lover in thrall.}
--------------

To Cat and all, do you know more information on uses of graveyard dirt for
love? To be specific, a spell recipe for coercive love spell casting. Not
from your website, I read em all.

Thanks for the help.


~Jim

unread,
Apr 11, 2004, 12:51:15 AM4/11/04
to
That's a problem.

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:40787DFB...@luckymojo.com...

Tom

unread,
Apr 11, 2004, 11:31:41 AM4/11/04
to

"~Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:40780ee6$1...@news.cbn.net.id...

> So far, it is the only source I can get my hands on.
> I'm very open to new sources, especially if it comes from you :) as you
seem
> to be very knowledgable in your stuff.

The use of graveyard dust for all sorts of purposes is dealt with
extensively in the 5-volume "Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork",
by folklorist Harry Middleton Hyatt. Anything Cat can tell you about it is
likely to be from this set of books or from someone strongly influenced by
them. So get them for yourself and you'll have the definitive collection of
such spells.


catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 11, 2004, 4:29:54 PM4/11/04
to
Tom wrote:

By following a cross-post Tom has escaped my alt.magick
kill-filter, allowing me to supply some information to counter
his false assumptions about me and my work.

> "~Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote:

> > So far, it [luckymojo.com] is the only source I can get my hands on.


> > I'm very open to new sources, especially if it comes from you :)
> > as you seem to be very knowledgable in your stuff.

> The use of graveyard dust for all sorts of purposes is dealt with
> extensively in the 5-volume "Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork",
> by folklorist Harry Middleton Hyatt.

True. You will also find graveyard dirt spells for love,
protection, moving people, and so forth mentioned in some detail
among these books and articles:

[Anon.]. "Folklore and Ethnology" Southern Workmen and Hampton
School Record. Volume 28, March, 1899.

[Anon.]. "Folklore and Ethnology" Southern Workmen and Hampton
School Record. Volume 28, August, 1899.

[Anon.] "The Religious Life of the Negro Slave" Harper's New
Monthly.. September, October, November, 1863.

Bacon, Miss A[lice]. M. "Folklore and Ethnology: Conjuring and
Conjure Doctors in the Southern United States" Southern Workmen
and Hampton School Record. Volume 24, December, 1895.

Chesnutt, Charles Wadell. The Conjure Woman. Houghton, Mifflin &
Co., 1899.

Cullin, Stewart. "Concerning Negro Sorcery in the United States."
Journal of American Folklore. Volume 3, 1890.

Davis, Daniel Webster. "Folklore and Ethnology: Conjuration"
Southern Workmen and Hampton School Record. Volume 27, December, 1898.

Herron, Leonora. "Folklore and Ethnology: Conjuring and Conjure
Doctors in the Southern United States," Southern Workmen and
Hampton School Record. Volume 24 [in two parts], July and
November, 1895.

Herron, Leonora and Bacon, Miss A[lice]. M. "Folklore Scrapbook"
Journal of American Folklore. Volume 9, 1896. [A "reprint in
extenso" of the 1895 three-part "Conjuring and Conjure Doctors in
the Southern United States," by Herron (two parts) and Bacon (one
part); listed here for the sake of completion only.]

Hurston, Zora Neale. Mules and Men. J. B. Lippincott, 1935.
Reprinted, Harper Collins, 1990.
---------. "Hoodoo in America" Journal of American Folklore.
Volume 44, 1931.
---------. The Federal Writers Project in Florida. The Negro in
Florida, 1528-1940. [unpublished incomplete ms.] [n.d., circa 1940.]

Moore, Ruby Andrews. "Superstitions From Georgia" Journal of
American Folklore. Volume 7, 1894.

Norris, Thaddeus. "Negro Superstitions" Lippincott's Magazine.
July 1870.

Owen, Mary Alicia. Voodoo Tales as Told Among the Negroes of the
Southwest, Collected from Original Sources. Putnam, 1893.

Park, Sallie M. "Voodooism in Tennessee" Atlantic Monthly,
September 1889.

Puckett, Newbell Niles. Folk Beliefs of the Southern Negro.
University of North Carolina Press, 1926.

Steiner, Roland. "Observations of the Practice of Conjuring in
Georgia" Journal of American Folklore. Volume 14, 1901.

> Anything Cat can tell you about it is
> likely to be from this set of books or
> from someone strongly influenced by
> them.

False. (1) See the books and magazine articles listed above that
predate (and hence are not "influenced by") Hyatt's collection,
which was first published in 1970-1978. Tom has the cart before
the horse -- by more than one hundred years, in the cases of
Thaddeus Norris and the anonymous author of "The Religious Life
of the Negro Slave."

False. (2) I have been collecting such folkloric magic spells
from practitioners and from antiquarian books since 1962, which
is about a decade before Hyatt's "Hoodoo - Conjuration -
Witchcraft - Rootwork" was published. Hyatt is well-known now --
and deservedly so -- but he was not a source during the first ten
years i spent learning the subject. Tom again has the cart before
the horse.

> So get them for yourself and you'll have the
> definitive collection of such spells.

Semi-True. You will have an astounding collection. I certainly
would call it "definitive" for rural pre-World War II hoodoo, but
it is not "definitive" for the magical system as a whole because
there are many hoodoo spells -- whole CLASSES of spells -- that
have been developed since Hyatt did his field work in the South
in 1936-1940. Hoodoo is a living tradition.

For instance, the "Love Me Or Die" spell utilizing graveyard dirt
or goofer dust that i related on the web page previously cited in
this thread is not found in Hyatt's books -- for i learned it in
Chicago in 1965, not in Mississippi in 1936.

Going beyond graveyard dirt, which represents the oldest layer of
African magic in hoodoo, an example of a major change to hoodoo
that came about after Hyatt's collection cut-off date in 1940
concerns candle spells. Before the publication of Henri Gamache's
"Master Book of Candle Burning" in 1942, there were few if any
"moving candle" spells -- after Gamache wrote about them, they
became extremely popular and new ones were added to the
repertoire rapidly. By the time i was a teenager collecting
spells in the 1960s, Gamache had revolutionized candle-burning
magic among rootwork practitioners and moving candle spells were
everywhere in the community. When Hyatt's 1930s-era research was
finally released in the mid 1970s, i was amazed at the LACK of
such spells in his collection. This led me to pinpoint the
development of the technique to Gamache's book, as "The Master
Book of Candle Burning" laid out all the elements for this type
of spell and had been in print continually since the year it was
first published.

A second major change not chronicled by Hyatt hit hoodoo in the
1970s, with the arrival in the USA of many Cuban immigrants who
brought with them their own African diasporic tradition of
burning glass-encased "novena candles" as part of their rites of
Catholic magical prayers. It was not very long before these
candles -- stripped of all references to or images of Catholic
saints -- were renamed "vigil lights" and decorated with images
taken from traditional hoodoo formulas like Fast Luck, Come To
Me, and Court Case. They then appeared all around the USA,
starting in Chicago, with the Lama Temple's introduction of
silk-screened vigil lights. Because these candles are encased in
glass, new methods for dressing them had to be developed, and a
new system of divination by reading the wax leavings was devised.
None of this existed when Hyatt undertook his massive field work
project, and you will find nothing about it in books on hoodoo
published prior to around 1980.

Hoodoo is a living tradition and can be studied first hand by
anyone willing to talk to African American practitioners about
it. As for Hyatt's "influence" on hoodoo, i will go so far as to
say that until the mid 1990s, when i put the first web page about
Harry Hyatt online, few practitioners had even heard of him and
his books, which had been published 30 years earlier in a limited
edition of 3,000 copies and distributed only among academic
libraries.

The examples given of pre-Hyatt publications and post-Hyatt
developments in hoodoo are not presented in order to dispute
Tom's statement that Hyatt's collection contains a large number
of graveyard dirt spells (for it certainly does) or to diminish
in any way the impact Hyatt has had on academic folklorists, but
simply to set aright the erroneous impression Tom has given to
the public that all of the graveyard dirt (or coercive love)
spells found at my site come from "from this set of [Hyatt's]


books or from someone strongly influenced by them."

Cordially,

Tom

unread,
Apr 11, 2004, 5:17:15 PM4/11/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4079ACD5...@luckymojo.com...

> Tom wrote:
>
> By following a cross-post Tom has escaped my alt.magick
> kill-filter,

And why should this matter to anybody but you? As usual, however, you seem
to think that your private travails are big news.

> allowing me to supply some information to counter
> his false assumptions about me and my work.

By all means, consider yourself allowed. I give you permission justy this
once. Afetr that, you are hereby instructed to stuff even more cotton in
your ears so that you won't have to hear any unpleasant truths.

And lest anyone else make any false assumptions about the accuracy of your
many claims, let me quote from your web site regarding graveyard dust. We
wouldn't want anyone to assume falsely that anything you sell actually does
anything special.

"We do not make any supernatural claims for graveyard dirt, and sell it as a
Curio only."

> > Anything Cat can tell you about it is
> > likely to be from this set of books or
> > from someone strongly influenced by
> > them.
>
> False. (1) See the books and magazine articles listed above that
> predate (and hence are not "influenced by") Hyatt's collection,
> which was first published in 1970-1978. Tom has the cart before
> the horse -- by more than one hundred years, in the cases of
> Thaddeus Norris and the anonymous author of "The Religious Life
> of the Negro Slave."

In your article on graveyard dust (
http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html ), the only academic source you
cite for your information is Harry M. Hyatt. So, despite your intellectual
pretensions, the likely source for anything you have to say about this lore
is from Hyatt. There may be a few small spells, here and there, that aren't
mentioned in Hyatt, but I suspect they're rare. We can exclude any spell
that you made up yourself or adapted because you, my dear, again despite
your intellectual pretensions, have been heavily influenced by Harry M.
Hyatt.

"In the 1930s, Harry M. Hyatt collected information about hoodoo from 1,600
African-American informants, and one of them gave him a variation of the
Graveyard Dirt Love Spell. It is simpler than Baron Blanc's version, in that
it does not include the Vandal Root, but it is also much more direct because
rather than hide the materials under your bed, as Baron Blanc suggests, you
sprinkle the graveyard dirt on yourself when you go to be near the one whom
you wish to attract. This is the way i was told to do it, too."

> False. (2) I have been collecting such folkloric magic spells
> from practitioners and from antiquarian books since 1962, which
> is about a decade before Hyatt's "Hoodoo - Conjuration -
> Witchcraft - Rootwork" was published. Hyatt is well-known now --
> and deservedly so -- but he was not a source during the first ten
> years i spent learning the subject. Tom again has the cart before
> the horse.

Bah. Quite a bit of the stuff from Hyatt's later work came from his
"Folklore From Adams County Illinois", published in 1935. So, by the time
you started your study, Hyatt's information was already available.

> > So get them for yourself and you'll have the
> > definitive collection of such spells.
>
> Semi-True.

As close to true as makes any difference to the guy I was talking to. And
definitely not a "false assumption" on my part.


> You will have an astounding collection. I certainly
> would call it "definitive" for rural pre-World War II hoodoo, but
> it is not "definitive" for the magical system as a whole because
> there are many hoodoo spells -- whole CLASSES of spells -- that
> have been developed since Hyatt did his field work in the South
> in 1936-1940. Hoodoo is a living tradition.

That's correct. You, like everybody else with an ounce of creativity, make
it up as you go along.

> For instance, the "Love Me Or Die" spell utilizing graveyard dirt
> or goofer dust that i related on the web page previously cited in
> this thread is not found in Hyatt's books -- for i learned it in
> Chicago in 1965, not in Mississippi in 1936.

Who have you killed with it? Or is that the part you made up?

> Going beyond graveyard dirt, which represents the oldest layer of
> African magic in hoodoo, an example of a major change to hoodoo
> that came about after Hyatt's collection cut-off date in 1940
> concerns candle spells.

Now, in a further effort to overload the reader with useless and irrelevant
information, you completely leave off any of those "false assumptions" you
claim I made and go blabbering about candle magic.

Go back to hiding behind your killfile, you pretentious, gossip-mongering
huckster. You've failed again.


catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 11, 2004, 6:52:47 PM4/11/04
to
~Jim wrote:
>
> To Cat and all, do you know more information on uses of graveyard dirt for
> love? To be specific, a spell recipe for coercive love spell casting. Not
> from your website, I read em all.
>
> Thanks for the help.

I think you may be seeking complication and multiplicity where
there is no need for any. Using graveyard dirt for coercive love
spells is both simple and widespread in the African American
magical community -- so there is no need to create variations or
fancier spells. It works because of your link to the spirit from
whose grave the dirt was ritually gathered.

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 11, 2004, 8:25:05 PM4/11/04
to
Tom wrote:
>
> "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote
> >
> > Tom wrote

>
> > > Anything Cat can tell you about it is
> > > likely to be from this set of books or
> > > from someone strongly influenced by
> > > them.
> >
> > False. (1) See the books and magazine articles listed above that
> > predate (and hence are not "influenced by") Hyatt's collection,
> > which was first published in 1970-1978. Tom has the cart before
> > the horse -- by more than one hundred years, in the cases of
> > Thaddeus Norris and the anonymous author of "The Religious Life
> > of the Negro Slave."
>
> In your article on graveyard dust
> ( http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html ), the only academic
> source you cite for your information is Harry M. Hyatt.

All of the sources i listed in my previous post and many more,
are cited in full in the bibliography of my book "Hoodoo Herb and
Root Magic."

The table of contents page for "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice"
(of which the graveyard spells page is but one small part) is at
http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html
and there i give a brief bibliographical listing of the books
that will be most readily available through amazon.com and ebay
auctions to the practical rootworker who does not have access to
a university library, namely:

----begin web page extract----

BIBLIOGRAPHY OF PRINTED SOURCES
Albertus Magnus (ascribed), Ancient Egyptian Secrets;
Anonymous, Aunt Sally's Policy Players Dream Book;
Anonymous, 6th & 7th Books of Moses;
De Claremont, Ancient Book of Formulas,
De Claremont, Legends of Incense, Herbs, and Oil Magic;
Gamache/Moses, 8th, 9th, and 10th Books of Moses;
Gamache, Master Book of Candle Burning;
Haskins, Voodoo and Hoodoo;
Herman, Black Hermann;
Hohman, Pow Wows;
Hurston, Mules and Men;
Hyatt, Folk-Lore from Adams County Illinois;
Hyatt, Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork;
Puckett, Folk Beliefs of the Southern Negro;
Randolph, Eulis!;
Selig, Secrets of the Psalms;
Yronwode, Hoodoo herb and Root Magic;
plus
DeLaurence stuff to explain Hyatt's faulty "DeLong" refs, etc.

----end web page extract----

(That cryptic last entry about "DeLaurence stuff to explain
Hyatt's faulty 'DeLong' refs" is explained more fully on the page
i wrote about Harry Hyatt at
http://www.luckymojo.com/hyatt.html )

> the likely source for anything you have to say about this lore
> is from Hyatt.

With respect to the use of graveyard dirt in love spells, Hyatt
gives just that one spell, entry #659 in "Hoodoo - Conjuration -
Witchcraft - Rootwork." The other sources for graveyard dirt
love spells mentioned at my site are the "Love Me Or Die" spell i
was taught by a woman who related it to me at a Chicago candle
shop in 1965 and a quote from an Australian reader of a book
written by "Baron Blanc." Therefore only one of the three
references is to Hyatt. I do not mention this to diminish the
major impact Hyatt has had, merely to set straight the record
concerning sources for graveyard dirt love spells at my web site
and elsewhere.

> Quite a bit of the stuff from Hyatt's later work came from his
> "Folklore From Adams County Illinois", published in 1935.

This is utterly wrong. With the exception of a couple of short
folk tales (not magical spell-craft per se), none of "the stuff


from Hyatt's later work came from his 'Folklore From Adams County
Illinois', published in 1935."

"Folklore From Adams County Illinois" (1935) consists of Hyatt's
brief synopses (in his own words) of rhymes, tales, spell-craft,
weather omens, death omens, riddles, and other folkloric material
he collected among people of British, Irish, German, and African
descent in a small county in Illinois in the upper Midwest. Hyatt
also published a revised 2nd edition of "Folklore From Adams
County Illinois" (1965) which contained an added autobiographical
account of his marriage to Alma Egan Hyatt.

"Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork" consists of
verbatim transcripts of interviews and excerpts from interviews
about spell-craft that Hyatt conducted with African American
people in the South-East and Gulf states.

Hyatt did not use material (and certainly not "quite a bit of the
stuff") from "Folklore From Adams County Illinois" (1935) to
create any "later work" -- which consists of "Descendants of John
Walton of Baltimore Co. Maryland and Harrison Co. Kentucky"
(1950) and "Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork"
(1970-178) or.

Finally, as i mentioned on my web page about Hyatt's books at
http://www.luckymojo.com/hyatt.html
i am quite open in acknowledging ...

-----web page excerpt-----

MY DEBT TO HARRY M. HYATT

Like almost everyone who has followed in Hyatt's shoes, i owe him
a debt for his dedication and perseverance in collecting so much
magical lore and making it available to all. Although i began my
own research into hoodoo in the early 1960s, before the reprint
of FACI or the first volumes of HCWR were published, i found
Hyatt's work invaluable from the time i first read it. I have
made some use of his material to bolster my own presentations,
and, for those who are interested, here is a list of Hoodoo in
Theory and Practice web pages that contain quoted passages from
Harry Hyatt's research:

[links]
Aunt Caroline Dye of Newport, Arkansas
Bluestone and Mexican Blue Anil Balls
Body Fluids: Menstrual Blood, Urine, Semen
Crossroads Rituals
Devil's Shoestring
Foot Track Magic
Goofer Dust
Hoodoo History and Definition of Terms
Hoyt's Cologne
Hyatt's African-American informants
Madam Myrtle Collins of Memphis, Tennessee
Nation Sack
Protection Spells
Salt
Secrets of the Psalms
Silver Dimes

-----end web page exceprt-----

One of the ways i am paying off this debt, by the way, is by
attempting to reconstruct and place online as much of the
biographical information that Hyatt lost when his "Numbers Books"
were misplaced as can be assembled from delving into the internal
evidence that survives in the published pages of "Hoodoo -
Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork." For further details on what
the "Numbers Books" reconstruction project is about, see my web
page on Hyatt's informants at
http://www.luckymojo.com/hyattinformants.html

Cordially,

cat yronwode

This post (c) 2004 catherine yronwode. all rights reserved.

Meltdarok

unread,
Apr 11, 2004, 10:18:57 PM4/11/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:4079E3F5...@luckymojo.com...


> Tom wrote:
> >
> > "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote
> > >
> > > Tom wrote
> >
> > > > Anything Cat can tell you about it is
> > > > likely to be from this set of books or
> > > > from someone strongly influenced by
> > > > them.
> > >
> > > False. (1) See the books and magazine articles listed above that
> > > predate (and hence are not "influenced by") Hyatt's collection,
> > > which was first published in 1970-1978. Tom has the cart before
> > > the horse -- by more than one hundred years, in the cases of
> > > Thaddeus Norris and the anonymous author of "The Religious Life
> > > of the Negro Slave."
> >
> > In your article on graveyard dust
> > ( http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html ), the only academic
> > source you cite for your information is Harry M. Hyatt.
>
> All of the sources i listed in my previous post and many more,
> are cited in full in the bibliography of my book "Hoodoo Herb and
> Root Magic."

So you messed around all day? Happy Easter.

Luke 24:41(KJV)
And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,
Have ye here any meat*?

*brosimos bro'-sim-os
from 1035; eatable:--meat.
Strong's Greek dictionary.

John 21:5(KJV)
Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat*? They answered him,
No.

*prosphagion pros-fag'-ee-on
neuter of a presumed derivative of a compound of 4314 and 5315; something
eaten in addition to bread, i.e. a relish (specially, fish; compare
3795):--meat.
Strong's Greek dictionary.


> Cordially,
>
> cat yronwode
>
> This post (c) 2004 catherine yronwode. all rights reserved.

--
meltdarok
http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/


catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 11, 2004, 11:01:02 PM4/11/04
to
Meltdarok wrote:
>
> "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote:
> > [stuff]

> So you messed around all day? Happy Easter.

Siva and i went to the crossroads for a little sunrise service of
our own (part of a nine-week crossroads ritual) and i did chores
and harvested rose buds and petals to dry, and our friend Don
made us a wonderful dinner of barbequed ribs, baked potatoes, and
fresh asparagus, but other than i've written only the third page
out of a four-page lesson for my students and, yeah, pretty much
messed around all day so far. The sun is just going down. Siva
has poured me some Constant Comment tea. Maybe the caffeine will
propel me into writing faster.

Happy Easter to you too. I hope you had a good time today as
well.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

Tom

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 12:20:01 AM4/12/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:4079E3F5...@luckymojo.com...

> Tom wrote:
> >
> > In your article on graveyard dust
> > ( http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html ), the only academic
> > source you cite for your information is Harry M. Hyatt.
>
> All of the sources i listed in my previous post and many more,
> are cited in full in the bibliography of my book "Hoodoo Herb and
> Root Magic."

How many specific graveyard dust spells do you describe that are not taken
directly from, or are clearly not variants of Hyatt's work? List them.

I don;t give a rat's ass how many works you cite in a general exposition of
hoodoo. That's irrelevant. I was speaking specifically about your spells
involving graveyard dust and here you are trying to confuse the issue, as
usual.

> The table of contents page for "Hoodoo in Theory and Practice"
> (of which the graveyard spells page is but one small part)

It doesn't matter at all what your table of contents says, either.

> > the likely source for anything you have to say about this lore
> > is from Hyatt.
>
> With respect to the use of graveyard dirt in love spells, Hyatt
> gives just that one spell, entry #659 in "Hoodoo - Conjuration -
> Witchcraft - Rootwork." The other sources for graveyard dirt
> love spells mentioned at my site are the "Love Me Or Die" spell i
> was taught by a woman who related it to me at a Chicago candle
> shop in 1965

Yes, that one is particularly heart-warming. Such fine folks practice
hoodoo. Crooks, cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and liars would seem to be
your usual clientele, to judge from the kinds of spells you recommend.
However, they're not very intelligent ones, if they have to rely on your
"curios".

> and a quote from an Australian reader of a book
> written by "Baron Blanc."

Which you sneer at.

> Therefore only one of the three references is to Hyatt.

Let's see, an anonymous person, an e-mail sender you clearly don't respect,
and Hyatt. That makes exactly one reference with any scholarly merit at
all. The other two are trash.

> I do not mention this to diminish the
> major impact Hyatt has had,

Yes you do. However, the only reason you're doing it is because I pointed
it out. Can't have that, now, can we?


~Jim

unread,
Apr 11, 2004, 1:11:43 PM4/11/04
to
Thanks a lot for the info Tom.
Unfortunately I cannot find it in amazon.com and are hoping that someone who
own the book willing to kindly look up for the info I'm looking for. (uses
and applications of graveyard dirt for love binding)

Thanks again in advance.
Jim

"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:xxdec.5568$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

~Jim

unread,
Apr 11, 2004, 11:41:03 PM4/11/04
to
Thanks for clarifying Cat.

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:4079CE55...@luckymojo.com...

Tom

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 12:22:16 AM4/12/04
to

"Meltdarok" <melt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:l0nec.17586$i74.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

>
> So you messed around all day? Happy Easter.

Cat never misses an opportunity to engage in vain pretense, even if it takes
her all day.

That's how she makes her living.


Tom

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 12:23:52 AM4/12/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:407A0884...@luckymojo.com...

> Siva and i went to the crossroads for a little sunrise service of
> our own (part of a nine-week crossroads ritual) and i did chores
> and harvested rose buds and petals to dry, and our friend Don
> made us a wonderful dinner of barbequed ribs, baked potatoes, and
> fresh asparagus,

A result of the "Feed Me or Die" spell, no doubt.


~Jim

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 12:25:50 AM4/12/04
to
Wow, what a list. I wish I live in america.
Here, the interest for reading is SO LOW that I have to import books if I
want them.


"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:4079ACD5...@luckymojo.com...

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 4:22:52 AM4/12/04
to
Tom wrote:

> How many specific graveyard dust spells do you describe that are not taken
> directly from, or are clearly not variants of Hyatt's work?

"Variants of Hyatt's work" makes no sense in the context of this
question. Hyatt collected many graveyard dirt spells, and so did
Puckett, Haskins, Hurston, and even i. All of these spells fall
into a limited set of recognizable "families" (graveyard dirt for
protection, graveyard dirt for coercive love spells, graveyard
dirt to move people away, graveyard dirt to sicken someone, etc.)
because they derive from a very widespread folk tradition that
any folklorist of folk magician can tap into simply by asking
people about it.

To call Puckett's 1926 collection of hoodoo spells "variants of
Hyatt's work" is ludicrous. It is even more ludicrous to refer to
Chesnutt's 1899 text, "The Goophered Grapevine" -- which relates
a graveyard dirt spell -- as a "variant of Hyatt's work."
Likewise, if i collect a spell from someone, it is not a "variant
of Hyatt's work," it is just another example of how popular these
old African graveyard dirt spells still are in the African
American magical community.

> List them.

Attempting to list the graveyard spells i have collected which
Hyatt did not collect is, alas, an impossible task at this time,
for Hyatt published five thousand pages of spells -- with NO
INDEX.

Trying to determine what Hyatt did NOT include would necessitate
creating an index, but to this date, no one has yet produced one
and UCLA, which claims to control the copyrights to "Hoodoo -
Conjuration - Witchcraft - Rootwork," has specifically forbidden
anyone publishing such an index if they were to create it.

I *can* tell you that although i have read Hyatt's five volumes
through many times, i have not found the "Love Me or Die"
jack-ball spell or the "Graveyard Dirt to Lead Someone to Death"
spell (the latter given in my book "Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic"
on page 109) in his collection yet. But i won't be able to state
with certainty that that they are not there in some form or other
until his books are finally indexed.

> Such fine folks practice hoodoo. Crooks,
> cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and liars

Sarcasm and name-calling are an invitation to abandon rational
discourse that holds no appeal to me. Your list of practitioners
left out those who are housewives, factory workers, ministers,
laborers, artists, farmers, teens, executives, florists, cooks,
school teachers, truck drivers, athletes, retirees, lawyers, and
social workers -- basically the same cross-section of people who
practice any other system of magic you might care to name. Hoodoo
is not confined to the criminal segment of the culture in which
it was developed, nor do all hoodoo practitioners engage in
coercive spells such as the one we have been discussing. The
system of magic is larger than your efforts to belittle it, but
that you repeatedly make such attempts tells us a lot about you.

cat yronwode

news:alt.lucky.w -- discussions on folk magic, luck, amulets, charms

Meltdarok

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 4:53:26 AM4/12/04
to
"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:YPoec.6454$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

>
> "Meltdarok" <melt...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:l0nec.17586$i74.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> > So you messed around all day? Happy Easter.
>
> Cat never misses an opportunity to engage in vain pretense, even if it
takes
> her all day.
>

I see nothing wrong with being a real person.

> That's how she makes her living.
>

It seems to me that none of us are mind-numbingly wealthy.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

>

--
meltdarok
http://hometown.aol.com/meltdarok/


Tom

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 10:48:09 AM4/12/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:407A53F0...@luckymojo.com...

> Tom wrote:
>
> > How many specific graveyard dust spells do you describe that are not
taken
> > directly from, or are clearly not variants of Hyatt's work?
>
> "Variants of Hyatt's work" makes no sense in the context of this
> question. Hyatt collected many graveyard dirt spells, and so did
> Puckett, Haskins, Hurston, and even i.

The only academic source you name in your article on graveyard dust is
Hyatt.

> To call Puckett's 1926 collection of hoodoo spells "variants of
> Hyatt's work" is ludicrous.

I made no claim. You're serving up reds herrings again, liar.

> Attempting to list the graveyard spells i have collected which
> Hyatt did not collect is, alas, an impossible task at this time,

Yeah. Right.

> I *can* tell you that although i have read Hyatt's five volumes
> through many times, i have not found the "Love Me or Die"
> jack-ball spell or the "Graveyard Dirt to Lead Someone to Death"
> spell (the latter given in my book "Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic"
> on page 109) in his collection yet.

It's probable that he wasn't the morally bereft jackass you are.

> > Such fine folks practice hoodoo. Crooks,
> > cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and liars
>
> Sarcasm and name-calling are an invitation to abandon rational
> discourse that holds no appeal to me.

Yes, by all means, let's have a rational discussion of "Love Me of Die"
spell. I'll go first. Have you any evidence at all that the result of
performing this spell will be that the victim will be forced to have sex
with you or die? Or is it only a "curio" for which you claim no
supernatural powers? Is it a loving thing to threaten a person with death
if they don't have sex with you? Isn't that rape? Come, let's be rational.

> Your list of practitioners
> left out those who are housewives, factory workers, ministers,
> laborers, artists, farmers, teens, executives, florists, cooks,
> school teachers, truck drivers, athletes, retirees, lawyers, and
> social workers --

There are repulsive and amoral people in many professions. You're trying to
claim that "housewives, factory workers, ministers, laborers, artists,


farmers, teens, executives, florists, cooks, school teachers, truck drivers,

athletes, retirees, lawyers, and social workers" cannot be crooks, cheats,
bullies, psychopaths, and liars, which is absurd. Is that what you consider
"rational discourse"? If so, you're no good at it.

> Hoodoo
> is not confined to the criminal segment of the culture in which
> it was developed, nor do all hoodoo practitioners engage in
> coercive spells such as the one we have been discussing.

But you do. And it's your customers in particular that we're discussing,
despite your attempt to snip that little bit of information from our
"rational discourse". Let's quote my statement in full once more, so that I
can rub your nose in it.

"Crooks, cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and liars would seem to be
your usual clientele, to judge from the kinds of spells you recommend."

Despite your attempt at misrepresentation by cutting out the clear reference
to yourself and the trash you offer, I have not called all hoodoo
practitioners these names. I am commenting on the lack of regard for human
rights and common decency that *you* display and which *your* customers are
supporting by buying your products. I have no doubt that there are good
and decent people who pratice hoodoo. You're not one of them, though.

> The system of magic is larger than your efforts to belittle it, but
> that you repeatedly make such attempts tells us a lot about you.

You can't hide your lack of social responsibility behind a "system of magic"
any more than a Catholic priest can hide his boy-rape behind Mother Church.


Tom

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 10:49:59 AM4/12/04
to

"Meltdarok" <melt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:aOsec.19288$i74.3...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

> "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:YPoec.6454$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > Cat never misses an opportunity to engage in vain pretense,
> > even if it takes her all day.
>
> I see nothing wrong with being a real person.

Is "vain pretense" a necessary condition of being a "real person"?

> > That's how she makes her living.
>
> It seems to me that none of us are mind-numbingly wealthy.
> Correct me if I'm wrong.

One needn't be wealthy to be contemptible.


catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 4:00:15 PM4/12/04
to
Tom wrote:
>
> Have you any evidence at all that the result of
> performing this ["Love Me Or Die"] spell will be that
> the victim will be forced to have sex with you or die?

I cannot provide "evidence" that a coercive magic spell i
personally have never used can produce desired results. If
you are trying to drive this conversation toward the Randy
Challenge, i suggest you seek another partner in debate.

> Or is it only a "curio" for which you claim no
> supernatural powers?

Asking whether a Jack rite is a "curio" is about as
meaningful is asking if the Abramelin operation is a curio.
The Jack rite is generally called "working the Jack ball" or
"operating the Jack" -- and during it, one swings the Jack
back and forth or around and around while enchanting the
object of one's desires.

There is no curio per se, unless the Jack itself is
considered a curio, but it is, more properly speaking, a
tool constructed for use and then used in working a ritual.

The making of the "Love Me Or Die" Jack Ball is a small
ceremony during which one winds a full spool of red thread
around a hard, woody John the Conquer root, in which are
embedded objects symbolic of oneself and the object of one's
desire. Once the root is thus prepared, it is used in a
ritual of spiritual coercion.

What we have been discussing is the rite or spell itself,
not a curio. Perhaps if i explain that there are different
types of Jack spells you will understand the distinction.

For example, another Jack spell, used in a rite of
divination to determine whether an absent person is safe and
healthy, is described in the 19th century Mary Alicia Owens
book i cited earlier -- and the Owens account of this Jack
Ball is also quoted in Charles Leland's "Etruscan Magic"
compilation of the 1890s, because he (Leland) was the
subject upon whom Owens worked the Jack Ball which she had
hired a conjure doctor to make.

A third Jack spell is loosely described in song form at my
"Blues Lyrics and Hoodoo" web site -- the URL is
http://www.luckymojo.com/bluesmojolenoir.html
and the relevant verse, by J. B. Lenoir, is:

I got one Jack, sure is crazy
My aunt forgot to teach me, just how to operate it
I went to a night club, I was squeezing it tight
I believe that's the cause of them people's start to
fight

The cultural in-joke here (the song is a funny one) is that
by operating the Jack improperly -- squeezing it rather than
swinging it -- the singer caused people to fight rather than
to have a good time.

> Is it a loving thing to threaten a person with death
> if they don't have sex with you? Isn't that rape?
> Come, let's be rational.

I personally do not use or advocate coercive spells in love
matters. They seem unloving to me. I make that clear on the
web page in question. However, in writing a book about a
system of traditional magic, i have chosen not to elide
coercive or harmful spells.

> > Hoodoo is not
> > confined to the criminal segment of the culture in which
> > it was developed, nor do all hoodoo practitioners engage in
> > coercive spells such as the one we have been discussing.
>
> But you do.

No, actually i do not engage in coercive spells such as the
one we have been discussing. You've jumped the gun here,
making an assumption that can easily be checked against what
i have written and published on the subject.

> And it's your customers
> in particular that we're discussing,

You are stating that people who buy spiritual supplies from
me are de facto "crooks, cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and
liars". Where's your "evidence" of this, Tom?

And by the way, your impugning my customers' reputations is
not the same as our "discussing" my clients. Name-calling is
not discussion; it is just a form of careless verbal
aggression.

> Let's quote my statement in full once more,
> so that I can rub your nose in it.
>
> "Crooks, cheats, bullies, psychopaths,
> and liars would seem to be your usual
> clientele, to judge from the kinds
> of spells you recommend."

I did not recommend the spell. My only published comments
about it, beyond describing it, are as follows:

"I have never tried such coercive love
spells myself. I am too tender-hearted
and also have had too many offers of
love from willing men to bother to mess
with men who were recalcitrant."

(
http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#lovemeordiejackball )
-- also in "Hoodoo Herb and Root Magic" on page 106.

> Despite your attempt at misrepresentation
> by cutting out the clear reference
> to yourself and the trash you offer,

For the record, what i offer are herbs, many of which i grow
and harvest myself, candles, spiritual supplies such as
herbal oils and incense compounded by hand in our own shop,
and small folkloric amulets and talismans imported from
around the world. Your characterization of the delightfully
fragrant organically grown and home-dried rosebuds i
prepared this weekend as "trash" is just a piece of verbal
aggression; you have never seen my goods.

> I have not called all hoodoo
> practitioners these names. I am
> commenting on the lack of regard for human
> rights and common decency that *you* display
> and which *your* customers are
> supporting by buying your products.
> I have no doubt that there are good
> and decent people who pratice hoodoo.
> You're not one of them, though.

A while ago, you compared me unfavourably to the amateur
folklorist Harry Hyatt. You said that he was moral and i am
not. You allege that Reverend Hyatt was good and "decent"
although he published several hundred coercive spells and
death spells in "Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft -
Rootwork.

Sample:

----- begin sample coercive spell from Hyatt -----

WHIP A FROG AND TELL HIM WHAT YOU WANT DONE -
WHIP FROG TO DEATH AND TIE HIM ON YOUNG HICKORY -
AFTER FROG DRIES VICTIM WILL DRY - TRAVEL ALWAYS

9868. Yo' kin run a frog up tuh yuh do'. An' whip
an' talk tuh 'im. Talk about evah'where he [victim]
stays. He's bad. An' take dat frog den an' care
[carry] him out tuh a hick'ry tree. Take a [young]
hick'ry tree an' beah [bear = bend] it down an' put
dat frog on dat tree. Tied dat frog on dat tree an'
when dat frog dry up, den yo' [victim] will dry up
an' travel. Yo' jes' dry up an' yo' won' have no
mind tuh stay at one place.

(What else do you do with that frog when you are
whipping him? What else do you do to him?)

Jes' talk tuh 'im an' tell 'im whut chew whippin'
'im fo', an' tuh do whut chew want done. Talk jes'
lak, yo' know, lak somebody talkin'. Whip 'im till
yo' kill 'im.

(Well, what if I get the wrong person?)

[I am fishing here to learn whether frog is named
victim or victim's name is called, etc.]

Yo' have tuh talk tuh 'im an' tell 'im whut tuh do.

[Wilson, N. Car., (1503), 2669:11.]

----- end sample coercive spell from Hyatt -----

So, according to your latest logic, not only was Harry Hyatt
immoral, but the universities that purchased Hyatt's volumes
of coercive and death spell magic lore from him demonstrate
a "lack of regard for human rights and common decency."

If publishing such spells is as serious a moral issue as you
claim, what are YOU going to do about the Hyatt Collection
at UCLA, Tom?

Should funds to the university be cut off in the name of
"common decency"?

Should the books be made off-limits to the public?

Should those who buy the books containing the spells be
considered "psychopaths" and their movements monitored?

Please present your plan for dealing with these issues and
rectifying any moral lapses in detail.

> > The system of magic is larger than
> > your efforts to belittle it, but
> > that you repeatedly make such
> > attempts tells us a lot about you.
>
> You can't hide your lack of social
> responsibility behind a "system of magic"
> any more than a Catholic priest can hide
> his boy-rape behind Mother Church.

Harry Hyatt, an Anglican minister, published spells from
interviewees such as these:

#1174 - [-] 9 frogs under bed runs enemy crazy, then kills him
(entry 9884, cylinder 1984:4)

#1209 - [-] frog powder, frog blood, sulphur fed to cause death
(entry 9940, cylinder 2043:4)

#1559 - [-] unnamed female Spiritual medium and candle
worker.
Loading a candle: Death spell: write name backwards,
bore hole in bottom of black candle, place rolled
name-paper inside. To cause heart conditions, burn
candle in a lard bucket and burn lye around it;
stick nine pins and nine needles in candle to cause
angina pains.
(Vol. II; no entry #; cylinders 2839:7 - 2852:3)

According to your logic, by publishing these spells and
offering such material for sale to the public Reverend Hyatt
was "hid[ing] his lack of social responsibility behind a
system of magic" and he could no more escape responsibility


"than a Catholic priest can hide his boy-rape behind Mother Church."

YOU recently recommended that a poster named ~Jim should BUY
the Hyatt books! Do you know where this leaves YOU in terms
of "common decency"?

By your logic, your dastardly book recommendation leaves you
guilty of "hid[ing] your lack of social responsibility
behind a "system of magic" and you can no more escape
responsibility for telling the querent to buy the Hyatt
books "than a Catholic priest can hide his boy-rape behind
Mother Church."

As Shakespeare said, "'Tis the sport to have the engineer
hoisted with his own petard."

Adios, Sport.

cat yronwode

Joseph Bearwalker Wilson

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 4:37:04 PM4/12/04
to

Awww, that's just Tommy. If he can't intimidate people with his
pretense at morally superior scepticism, he calls names and casts
aspersions. Maybe he'll grow up someday.

-
Live in harmony,

Joseph Bearwalker Wilson
http://www.toteg.com
'Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the men of old; seek what they sought.'
Matsuo Basho (1644-1694)

Smoke Wolf

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 4:43:14 PM4/12/04
to
catherine yronwode <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in news:407AF799.B646FF30
@luckymojo.com:

> Tom wrote:
>>
>> Have you any evidence at all[ad nauseum...]


> As Shakespeare said, "'Tis the sport to have the engineer
> hoisted with his own petard."
>
> Adios, Sport.
>
> cat yronwode
>

Cat,

I don't know why anyone argues with this guy, since he's so firmly
esconced in falacious argument and self-serving opinion which he
elevates to universal truth.

Still, your responses are highly informative. Thanks for making the
effort. I've learned from your pearls even as the swine trample them.


Tom

unread,
Apr 12, 2004, 10:12:16 PM4/12/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:407AF799...@luckymojo.com...

> Tom wrote:
> >
> > Have you any evidence at all that the result of
> > performing this ["Love Me Or Die"] spell will be that
> > the victim will be forced to have sex with you or die?
>
> I cannot provide "evidence" that a coercive magic spell i
> personally have never used can produce desired results.

Then we certinly can't have a rational discourse on that subject. All we
have are baseless claims.

Next?

> > Or is it only a "curio" for which you claim no
> > supernatural powers?
>
> Asking whether a Jack rite is a "curio" is about as
> meaningful is asking if the Abramelin operation is a curio.

I see. So it's the actual graveyard dust that you claim to be selling only
as a curio and not as a substance with special magical powers. So, if
someone were to use, say, mullein, in any given "graveyard dust" spell it
would be just as effective. Is that correct?

And you also don't claim that the spell itself has any efficacy, so
rationally it doesn't matter if you call it a "curio" or "utter bullshit".
You're still not making any claim that this spell can do anything at all.

> > Is it a loving thing to threaten a person with death
> > if they don't have sex with you? Isn't that rape?
> > Come, let's be rational.
>
> I personally do not use or advocate coercive spells in love
> matters.

You will sell someone all the necessary (or unnecessary, as the case may be)
and tell them how to use it to victimize someone. They even tell you that
this is what they intend to do. Under those circumstances, it's absurd to
claim that you're not advocating that they do it. What should a flying
instructor do if someone came to him and asked how to fly an airliner into a
big building? Where does the responsibility of the seller end?

> They seem unloving to me. I make that clear on the
> web page in question. However, in writing a book about a
> system of traditional magic, i have chosen not to elide
> coercive or harmful spells.

It's not just in your book. It's on your web site, the same web site where
they can buy the ingredients. This isn't just some abstracted folklore
collection for the intellectual appreciation of scholars. It's clearly
intended for the purpose of instructing people who want to cast spells.

In essence, what you're doing would be morally equivalent to claiming that
you don't advocate child pornography but you'll instruct people in all the
details about how to groom their victims and take their pictures and even
sell them the video equipment to do it. After all, the video equipment has
all sorts of innocent uses and there's no law against telling people how to
seduce kids. Apparently you don't see a moral problem with that.

> > > Hoodoo is not
> > > confined to the criminal segment of the culture in which
> > > it was developed, nor do all hoodoo practitioners engage in
> > > coercive spells such as the one we have been discussing.
> >
> > But you do.
>
> No, actually i do not engage in coercive spells such as the
> one we have been discussing.

You advocate them. You have denied that, too, but, as I just pointed out,
that's a transparent lie.

> > And it's your customers
> > in particular that we're discussing,
>
> You are stating that people who buy spiritual supplies from
> me are de facto "crooks, cheats, bullies, psychopaths, and
> liars". Where's your "evidence" of this, Tom?

You instruct people in methods (which you are careful not to guarantee) to
break laws, cheat, dominate the helpless, and deceive. Then you sell them
the products you recommend for doing just that. You do other stuff, too.
Some of it isn't particularly vile. And some of it is.

Any crook, cheat, bully, psychopath, or liar who was stupid enough to
believe anything you insinuate about these spells, they would consider you
their number one source.

> And by the way, your impugning my customers' reputations is
> not the same as our "discussing" my clients. Name-calling is
> not discussion; it is just a form of careless verbal
> aggression.

If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

> > Let's quote my statement in full once more,
> > so that I can rub your nose in it.
> >
> > "Crooks, cheats, bullies, psychopaths,
> > and liars would seem to be your usual
> > clientele, to judge from the kinds
> > of spells you recommend."
>
> I did not recommend the spell.

We've already exposed that lie.

> > Despite your attempt at misrepresentation
> > by cutting out the clear reference
> > to yourself and the trash you offer,
>
> For the record, what i offer are herbs

Along with very bad advice and gross, deliberate misrepresentations of what
your critics are saying.

> candles, spiritual supplies such as
> herbal oils and incense compounded by hand in our own shop,
> and small folkloric amulets and talismans imported from
> around the world.

Plus dirt from local graveyards, severed animal parts, and bad advice on how
to cheat, deceive, and dominate helpless victims.

> Your characterization of the delightfully
> fragrant organically grown and home-dried rosebuds i
> prepared this weekend as "trash" is just a piece of verbal
> aggression; you have never seen my goods.

I didn't say a word about rosebuds. This is just another of your ridiculous
misrepresentations and one more piece of evidence that you're a cheap,
dishonest huckster.

> A while ago, you compared me unfavourably to the amateur
> folklorist Harry Hyatt.

I compare you unfavorably with maggots.

> You said that he was moral and i am
> not. You allege that Reverend Hyatt was good and "decent"
> although he published several hundred coercive spells and
> death spells in "Hoodoo - Conjuration - Witchcraft -
> Rootwork.

His audience, unlike yours, was not hoodoo practitioners but folkloric
scholars. And he didn't go skulking around graveyards and selling the dirt
to his readers.

> If publishing such spells is as serious a moral issue as you
> claim, what are YOU going to do about the Hyatt Collection
> at UCLA, Tom?

Recommend it to any folklorists who are interested on a scholarly basis and
ignore requests from psychopaths to do their research for them. You, on the
other hand, I will denouce as a morally bankrupt huckster whenever you raise
your nasty head in a newsgroup I read.

> YOU recently recommended that a poster named ~Jim should BUY
> the Hyatt books! Do you know where this leaves YOU in terms
> of "common decency"?

Yes, I said he should do his own research rather than depend on you to chew
his food for him. I'm not going to tell him how to hold some poor woman
down while he rapes her. That's what you have done.

Of course, another difference is that I don't think he has a snowball's
chance in hell of having any effect on her at all by playing around with
dirt he stole from some graveyard, so it doesn't matter what he does. It's
simply not going to work You, on the other hand, devoutly believe in the
power of those spells in the right hands. (Don't you? Despite your
commercially obligatory denials about claims for their supernatural powers?)

~Jim

unread,
Apr 13, 2004, 9:08:14 AM4/13/04
to
> Of course, another difference is that I don't think he has a snowball's
> chance in hell of having any effect on her at all by playing around with
> dirt he stole from some graveyard, so it doesn't matter what he does.
It's
> simply not going to work

Hey, I didnt stole anything from anyone.
FYI, the dirt is in possesion from a staff of mine for 25 years. He took it
with permission, actually encouraged to took the dirt by the grave
caretaker. The caretaker told him that he can use the dirt for ALL wishes.
Some strange weird thing happens related to the dirt. The dirt came from a
grave of a prince - Prabu Kiansantang, who is also responsible for
converting Indonesian to moslem. Son of a very powerful and most famous
ancient Hindu king of Java - King Siliwangi (prabu siliwangi) You can run a
search on the net for that.

The dirt, originally was gathered by 9 people each person receive 2 handful,
magickally shrinked to a handful when taken outside the grave property,
shrunk again after 25 years into only 1/5 of a glass. Given to me as a
present. Just the night before he gave it to me, the voice from an old man
in white robe (presumebly owner of the dirt whom he met in his "vision" 25
years ago) tapped into his shoulder at 1.30am while he's sleeping. Saying
rather roughly,"Sir! Sir! DON'T FORGET THE DIRT!" He woke up and barely
sleep afterward. I met him in the morning and he gave me the dirt in a small
plastic bag.
We assume that the old man quite pissed with him coz he neglected him for 25
years.

There's still many jungle, mountains and places out of reach from human.
Still lot's of mystical fenomena here. All TV station and radio stations run
a weekly coverage on it. Occasionally, a "ghost" was recorded and somebody
would get freaked out live on TV.

Here's an idea which I have learnt as told from my other staff. It was also
on TV on mystical program run weekly here 3 months ago. This is a get rich
quick "program"
I don't think you can do this there (if anyone reading this actually thinkin
g of going to do it)
Get a bird - "crow" (even better, breed em), make a satay out of it like you
would a chicken satay. Build a carriage to sell them (like people do in here
on the street/sidewalk, complete as if you're going to walk around selling
it. Which you do. But instead of pushing your cart to sell it to people on a
busy street, you push it to a hounted house, a dark street a forest/jungle,
anywhere you expect a wondering spirit.

You walk around yelling "crow satay" (local cart custom) As told (supposedly
a real story) lots/some of man/woman (spirit manisfestation) will come and
buy it like a regular customer/human would do. They do not give you the
money, but when they walk away and you sold out all satay, your drawer will
be full packed of $100 bills (or the highest notes of currency here) A man
actually get rich doing this, but he is told as a poor man now since he
cannot bear the pressure of ghost keep knocking on his door when he is not
selling em. So, one of the consequence of getting rich this way is that you
gotta keep selling the spirit crow satay at least once a month on a
specified night, or they will haunt you until you let go all of your money
from the sales. This is just a story as told to me.

Tom

unread,
Apr 13, 2004, 10:57:13 AM4/13/04
to

"~Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:407b...@news.cbn.net.id...

>
> Hey, I didnt stole anything from anyone.
> FYI, the dirt is in possesion from a staff of mine for 25 years. He took
it
> with permission, actually encouraged to took the dirt by the grave
> caretaker. The caretaker told him that he can use the dirt for ALL wishes.

I wonder if the person who's grave was pilfered would feel that your
attempted use of this dirt to commit rape was acceptable. I suspect not.

Is rape an acceptable form of social interaction in Indonesia? Maybe it is.
I don't know. How about for you, personally? Do you think it's OK to rape
a woman if she doesn't want to have sex with you by her own choice?

> This is just a story as told to me.

Yes. You'll find, as you research this sort of thing further, that lots of
people will tell you lots of stories, but none of them will be able to back
them up with anything more than other stories. Cat, for instance, is simply
telling you stories about coercive sex spells ( I won't call them "love
spells" because love has nothing to do with rape). She has no evidence that
they work except for stories that she's been told. She's admitted that she
has never used them personally and states quite clearly on her web site that
she sells hoodoo supplies as "curios", not as substances with actual magical
powers. The only claims she makes for them are based on stories from
sources that can be described as dubious, at best.


~Jim

unread,
Apr 13, 2004, 1:13:24 PM4/13/04
to
I am an asian, man! but I got my eduction overseas. I've got your westerner
mindset and things like this does not make sense to my logical westernized
thinking. One of the reason my spells does not work for 8 months is probably
caused by this sceptic mindset. But it's a different stories and environment
after I spent some time here than in there. Most definately.

About ghost, phenomena and supernatural... I mostly believe them now. I
don't hear stories just from one or two random person. But from friends, and
importantly parents and other family members. I don't think they all plot to
tell bullshit with an actor quality lie. Unlike others who shut down their
mind to new ideas and facts, I'd be eager to experience and find out for
REAL for myself what exist around us. Next time, I hope I'll have STORIES
about a REAL experience.

It is for real, vampires are for real. Mostly here is a different variations
of Djinn and the like, but we have a wide range of it. Victims are rare,
mostly they only scare people, but victim do occur from time to time. For
instance, there is recently several beheaded man found, the strange thing is
there is NO BLOOD on wound and the head is never found. Explain that.
"Coincidently" there is a place nearby the bodies believed to be haunted by
a certain kind of local vampire. Most other "demons" are quite harmless, but
the can scare the HELL out of you. There is "tuyul" or a demon of a victim
of abortion. Look like a small kid... 3 -4 yo. These are harmless, but they
have fang and feed on blood (animal blood only) Some people keep it and
"nurture" it because it serve its master by stealing money. But only one
specific note per houses. Other people other than it's master cannot see it.
There is even one area/vilage that specialize in selling these creatures...
to "buy" it with money and other requirements like fasting.

Some other scary stuff here. You won't find it in the city or crowded place.
Why don't you come here and prove it for yourself. Hopefully afterward you
can accept things and respect what we cannot comprehen now. Or, Look up the
book by kosta danaos, "the magus of java". Some "practical magic" there. I
have access to the man. ( I can make a lot of money just to give out the
contact number, you know LOL )

You know, it take an open minded people to accept things they cannot see and
believe.

"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:ddTec.7515$k05....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Tom

unread,
Apr 13, 2004, 4:21:07 PM4/13/04
to

"~Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:407c...@news.cbn.net.id...

>
> About ghost, phenomena and supernatural... I mostly believe them now. I
> don't hear stories just from one or two random person. But from friends,
and
> importantly parents and other family members.

And none of those people could possibly be mistaken, of course. After all,
you know them. People known to you, especially people you like or who are
related to you, never have false beliefs. Only strangers or people you
don't like could possibly believe something false. Isn't that right?

And we all know that anything that is said more than a couple of times must
be the truth, eh?

> I don't think they all plot to
> tell bullshit with an actor quality lie.

They don't have to be lying. Like you, they can convince themselves of any
number of things that just aren't so. It's not a matter of everybody but
you knowing what's real and all having to lie about it to keep you in the
dark.

> Unlike others who shut down their
> mind to new ideas and facts, I'd be eager to experience and find
> out for REAL for myself what exist around us. Next time, I hope
> I'll have STORIES about a REAL experience.

I'm not interested in stories about how you raped some poor, unsuspecting
woman.

> It is for real, vampires are for real.

There you go believing those silly *stories* again.

> Victims are rare,
> mostly they only scare people, but victim do occur from time to time.

*Stories* of victims do occur.

> For instance, there is recently several beheaded man found,
> the strange thing is there is NO BLOOD on wound and the
> head is never found. Explain that.

It's a *story*, you buffoon. You didn't find any beheaded man. All you did
was believe the story.

> "Coincidently" there is a place nearby the bodies believed to be
> haunted by a certain kind of local vampire.

Another *story*.

> Some other scary stuff here.

If you want to be scared, no one is going to be able to stop you. You're
welcome to be afraid of all the spooks you like, for all the good it'll do
you.

> Why don't you come here and prove it for yourself.

No thanks. I've got better ways to waste my time than chasing after your
superstitions.

> Look up the
> book by kosta danaos, "the magus of java".

*Stories*, Jim! They're *stories*.

> You know, it take an open minded people to accept things
> they cannot see and believe.

No it doesn't. All it takes is a fool.


~Jim

unread,
Apr 13, 2004, 11:26:02 PM4/13/04
to
LMAO to you Tom :)

"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:TYXec.8571$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 14, 2004, 1:44:44 AM4/14/04
to
> thinking of going to do it)

>
> Get a bird - "crow" (even better, breed em), make a satay out of it like you
> would a chicken satay. Build a carriage to sell them (like people do in here
> on the street/sidewalk, complete as if you're going to walk around selling
> it. Which you do. But instead of pushing your cart to sell it to people on a
> busy street, you push it to a hounted house, a dark street a forest/jungle,
> anywhere you expect a wondering spirit.
>
> You walk around yelling "crow satay" (local cart custom) As told (supposedly
> a real story) lots/some of man/woman (spirit manisfestation) will come and
> buy it like a regular customer/human would do. They do not give you the
> money, but when they walk away and you sold out all satay, your drawer will
> be full packed of $100 bills (or the highest notes of currency here) A man
> actually get rich doing this, but he is told as a poor man now since he
> cannot bear the pressure of ghost keep knocking on his door when he is not
> selling em. So, one of the consequence of getting rich this way is that you
> gotta keep selling the spirit crow satay at least once a month on a
> specified night, or they will haunt you until you let go all of your money
> from the sales. This is just a story as told to me.

Thank you, Jim for the detailed description of how graveyard dirt
is collected and used in Indonesia. The story of the crow satay
is wonderful, too. In the USA there are stories about the magical
qualities of crows, ravens, and also buzzards and vultures -- but
i understand what you mean when you say that selling crow satay
here from a cart would not work -- there are not enough
Indonesian spirits over here to buy it! :-)

Magic is often linked to the culture from which it arose -- but
some traditions are found in many cultures. The use of graveyard
dirt from the famous or rich is quite a popular custom here too.
It is ritually "bought" and paid for, as i explained on the web
page you read. I know a man who has graveyard dirt from the grave
of the man who founded the US Navy -- this dirt is powerful for
use in spells of courage and war. I know a man who has dirt from
the grave of a famous (and reportedly friendly and pleasant)
multimillionaire -- which he sprinkles around his shop to attract
customers and wealth.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 14, 2004, 1:45:51 AM4/14/04
to

Thank you Jim for the insightful glimpses into Indonesian magic.
I hope some day you create a web site about this, for it is
entirely unknown to westerners outside of anthropologists, and i
am sure that serious students of magic would like to know about
the magical beliefs and customs of your culture.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

Tom

unread,
Apr 14, 2004, 10:46:23 AM4/14/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:407CD227...@luckymojo.com...

>
> Thank you Jim for the insightful glimpses into Indonesian magic.
> I hope some day you create a web site about this, for it is
> entirely unknown to westerners outside of anthropologists, and i
> am sure that serious students of magic would like to know about
> the magical beliefs and customs of your culture.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/11/1119_031119_tvasmat.html

http://www.putritour.com/about_bali/become_leyak.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/newsarchive/1998/oct/rael-14oct1998-145.htm

http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1249%2C515036247%2C00.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0824816544/inktomi-bkasin-20/ref%3Dnosim/002-2746412-2818422

http://www.hamline.edu/apakabar/basisdata/2001/01/19/0012.html

http://www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/article.877.html

"Entirely unknown", eh? Well, maybe it's entirely unknown to anyone who
doesn't bother to do even a casual inquiry.


~Jim

unread,
Apr 14, 2004, 8:18:20 AM4/14/04
to
> i understand what you mean when you say that selling crow satay
> here from a cart would not work -- there are not enough
> Indonesian spirits over here to buy it! :-)

LOL. Yea, it seems like every country has a different race of ghosts.
I wonder, if the crow story is actually a true story, why the ghost love to
eat crows?
In here, the ghost in one magickal ritual, like to eat an egg (which
actually will become hollow!)

I've seens crows associated with terror in movies, but I was not aware of
the it relations/history?

Just FYI, I just ask a physic friend of mind to inspect the graveyard I
have, well... she cannot tell where it came from or any other information,
but she said that when she hold it in her left hand it felt hot, and cold on
the right hand.

Does taking graveyard dirt around with you is bad luck? (she said so)

~Jim

unread,
Apr 14, 2004, 1:16:06 PM4/14/04
to
Hi Cat,
I think I've sent the mail to or...@luckymojo.com 3 times with no response.
Can you get to it please?

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:40787DFB...@luckymojo.com...
> Jim wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Cat, you and your work has
> > been THE ONLY major source of information
> > that I've learnt a lot from.
>
> Thanks.
>
> > It's very unfortunate that I cannot
> > visit or call you due that I live in
> > Indonesia. However, I've sent email
> > yesterday to you regarding sales and
> > freight question for luckymojo.com.
> > Please kindly advice.
>
> I do not handle sales for Lucky Mojo. Address your queries
> to Susie or Carin at or...@luckymojo.com. Shipping overseas
> can be complicated, so be patient with the process and be
> prepared to pay a significant amount for the airmail
> shipping of anything heavy in weight.
>
> cat yronwode
>
> Lucky Mojo Curio Co. http://www.luckymojo.com/catalogue.html
> Send e-mail with your street address to cata...@luckymojo.com
> and receive our free catalogue of hoodoo supplies and amulets


~Jim

unread,
Apr 14, 2004, 11:28:43 AM4/14/04
to
Good to hear that Tom :)

"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:39cfc.9783$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 12:48:35 AM4/15/04
to
~Jim <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Cat,
> I think I've sent the mail to or...@luckymojo.com
> 3 times with no response.
> Can you get to it please?

That mail goes to Carin's computer. You apparently have the right
email address for her. I will cc this note to her, but i don't do
her job for her.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 1:46:09 AM4/15/04
to
~Jim wrote:

> "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:39cfc.9783$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
> > news:407CD227...@luckymojo.com...
> > >
> > > Thank you Jim for the insightful glimpses into Indonesian magic.
> > > I hope some day you create a web site about this, for it is
> > > entirely unknown to westerners outside of anthropologists, and i
> > > am sure that serious students of magic would like to know about
> > > the magical beliefs and customs of your culture.
>
> Good to hear that Tom :)

Not really ... Tom promises more than he delivers.

> > http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/11/1119_031119_tvasmat.html

"Islanders in Indonesia Fear Plunder of 'Magic' Trees"

This is a National Geographic article about cultural pressures
from outside that are disturbing the Asmat people of New Guinea.
It is not about Indonesian magical practices and beliefs.

> > http://www.putritour.com/about_bali/become_leyak.htm

This is a cut-to-fit-the-search-terms article hosted on a
Balinese tourism and hotel-booking site, written by a Westerner:

"when I first became interested in magic,
my Balinese friends tried to dissuade me,
claiming that unending calamities would
befall me if I persisted."

The article does mention the local belief in werewolves, but
beyond that it is just a piece of "local colour" which contains
no explanations of the Indonesian system of beliefs or any
instruction in magical practices. What ~Jim wrote was ten times
better and more informative.

> > http://www.abc.net.au/ra/newsarchive/1998/oct/rael-14oct1998-145.htm

This is an October 14, 1998 ABC-Australia news story, not an
article on Indonesian magical practices or beliefs.

> > http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1249%2C515036247%2C00.html

"Indonesia may ban cohabiting, black magic."

This is a Utah, USA newspaper article about pending legislation
in Indonesia. It is not about Indonesian magical practices or
beliefs.

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0824816544/inktomi-bkasin-20/ref%3Dno
> sim/002-2746412-2818422

This is an amazon.com listing of a book for sale, hence it is not
a web site on Indonesian magical practices or beliefs.

> > http://www.hamline.edu/apakabar/basisdata/2001/01/19/0012.html

"Disciplined by a mixture of Catholicism
and native lulik or black magic,
Familia Sagrada was a vital link
between the Falintil guerillas in the
mountains and the underground political
resistance in the towns. L7 became
known as a "pastor" of the network,
partly through his mastery of lulik."

This is a news article about the Falintil guerilla fighters in
East Timor. It is not about Indonesian magical practices.

> > http://www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/article.877.html

"Throughout the Malay world, there survives
a belief in the occult, the practice of
which is the peaceful syncretism of local
animism and the less orthodox Islam
brought by Arab traders seven hundred
years ago. Bawean Island practitioners of
magic called dukuns have a reputation for
being particularly skilled. I would have
accepted their supernatural intervention
in avoiding the nine-hour voyage by cargo
ship to get there--a mere speck in the sea
north of Indonesia's eastern Java. "

This is a tour-guide journal entry from Things Asian, written by
a Westerner; the article is about the "nine-hour cargo voyage"
alluded to above, with some history of the area. Nothing about
magical practices at all.

> > "Entirely unknown", eh? Well, maybe it's entirely unknown to anyone who
> > doesn't bother to do even a casual inquiry.

Tom's "casual inquiry" failed to turn up even one
English-language web site (Note: *web site* -- not "random news
article that happens to contain both the keywords "Indonesia" and
"magic") about Indonesian magic or the beliefs upon which it is
predicated. He gave us nothing but news articles on guerilla
fighters, cultural destruction, and tourism, plus an offer of a
book for sale. In short -- nothing useful on the web to the study
of Indonesian magic.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

Real web sites, with many pages of real information:


Hoodoo in Theory and Practice - http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodoo.html

Lucky W Amulet Archive -------- http://www.luckymojo.com/luckyw.html
Karezza and Sacred Sex ----- http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredsex.html
The Sacred Landscape ------ http://www.luckymojo.com/sacredland.html

~Jim

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 2:22:27 AM4/15/04
to
Well well... Here is an list of article that would be of interest
http://www.indotalisman.com/Articles.html

I am in no affiliation to this website, but it is written in English selling
indonesian talisman http://www.indotalisman.com (cat would love it :) ) and
reading it should give you an idea of occult practices in Indonesia.

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:407E23B9...@luckymojo.com...

~Jim

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 2:38:55 AM4/15/04
to
Here is another one, I think it's maintained by the same person living in
Bogor, Indonesia.
http://www.bezoarstones.com/ilmu_khodam.htm

Browse the site, it has similar info as in http://www.indotalisman.com

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 4:44:41 AM4/15/04
to
~Jim wrote:
>
> Well well... Here is an list of article that would be of interest
> http://www.indotalisman.com/Articles.html
>
> I am in no affiliation to this website, but it is written in English selling
> indonesian talisman http://www.indotalisman.com (cat would love it :) ) and
> reading it should give you an idea of occult practices in Indonesia.

Indeed -- i found some interesting articles and some wonderfully
intriguing Indonesian Islamic talismans shown there. This is a
site that should be of interest to anyone interested in Islamic
magic. Thanks for the recommendation.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 4:56:37 AM4/15/04
to

Yes, the articles are by "Luxamore," the same author, and some of
the same items are offered for sale. This second site is easier
to browse for me -- fewer background graphics and faster loading.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

~Jim

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 5:22:30 AM4/15/04
to
Yes, but I would not say it is entirely islamic magick, most of the art is
originally Hindu hundreds of years ago, before converted to Islam as
variation.


"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

news:407E4D91...@luckymojo.com...

Tom

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 10:39:40 AM4/15/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:407E23B9...@luckymojo.com...

> ~Jim wrote:
>
> > "Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:39cfc.9783$A_4....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > >
> > > "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
> > > news:407CD227...@luckymojo.com...
> > > >
> > > > Thank you Jim for the insightful glimpses into Indonesian magic.
> > > > I hope some day you create a web site about this, for it is
> > > > entirely unknown to westerners outside of anthropologists, and i
> > > > am sure that serious students of magic would like to know about
> > > > the magical beliefs and customs of your culture.
> >
> > Good to hear that Tom :)
>
> Not really ... Tom promises more than he delivers.

Talk about a pot calling the kettle black! You make all sorts of false
promises for your various products on your web site but maintain deniability
by calling them "curios" and denying that you're actually making any claims
for them at all. It's *other people* who make all those claims, which lets
you off the hook. That way, you let people believe they're buying powerful
magical items and you have no responsibility at all when the hapless rube
finds out that they don't work as promised at all.

> > >
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/11/1119_031119_tvasmat.html
>
> "Islanders in Indonesia Fear Plunder of 'Magic' Trees"
>
> This is a National Geographic article about cultural pressures
> from outside that are disturbing the Asmat people of New Guinea.
> It is not about Indonesian magical practices and beliefs.

Anyone reading the article will see just what those people believe about
those trees.

I'm snipping the rest of your distorted reviews of those articles and simply
advising anyone who doesn't automatically trust your blather to read them
for themselves and see if they can see any exposition of Indonesian magical
practices and beliefs in them.

And those are just the tip of the iceberg. There are hundreds of articles
available on the subject of Indonesian folk culture and magic by simply
typing "Indonesia magic" into a search engine. Your claim that Indonsian
folk culture is "entirely unknown to Westerners" is nonsense, just like the
rest of your bogus claims for your trinkets and trash.

As for your sneer that some of these articles were written by Westerners, I
might remind you, Cat, that you are not of African American descent. So, if
people outside of the cultural group can't be knowledgeable about the magic
of that group, then you'd better shut down your so-called "hoodoo" trinket
shop, because, by your own standards, you couldn't possibly know anything
about it.


Tom

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 10:54:46 AM4/15/04
to

"~Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:407e...@news.cbn.net.id...

> Well well... Here is an list of article that would be of interest
> http://www.indotalisman.com/Articles.html
>
> I am in no affiliation to this website, but it is written in English
selling
> indonesian talisman http://www.indotalisman.com (cat would love it :) )
and
> reading it should give you an idea of occult practices in Indonesia.

Oh, yes. Cat would love it. It makes a complete mockery of her claim that
nobody in the West knows anything about Indonesian magic. Cat loves being
exposed as a fool.

And here's what this web site has to say about hucksters like Cat:

"Because of the rapid growth of the metaphysical, holistic, and paranormal
fields in recent years there have been many unscrupulous individuals
entering the profession promoting and advertising themselves excessively
hoping to take financial advantage of the public's interest, curiosity,
enthusiasm and ignorance. Most of these people--these frauds--will cheat,
lie, deceive, promise you anything that you will want to hear, and please
you in order to grab your hard-earned cash... If these spiritual con-men
did not involve themselves in the metaphysical field, they would enter any
other field with the same hidden despicable motive of self-aggrandizement
and ego-promotion."
"Con persons will try to impress you as to their holiness by surrounding
themselves with spiritual props. This can take the form of many spiritual
books displayed in their office so you may think how spiritually involved
they may be. Also, they will surround themselves with symbols, works of art,
anything to give the impression of how genuinely spiritual they are. If
challenged, they become enormously defensive--that you would even dare to
challenge their credibility. How dare you! Remember, an honest spiritual
person has nothing to defend against, and therefore, welcomes communication.

"Challenge con persons a little too much and something happens. The true
dark side of their nature surfaces. These people, who you are accustomed to
hearing speak in joyful, flowery terms of light, suddenly threaten you,
becoming the ruthless bastards or bitches they really are. In other words,
if the old two-faced spirituality will no longer work with you, they will
not hesitate to switch to threats, intimidation, and coercion."

Tom

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 11:05:24 AM4/15/04
to

"~Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:407e...@news.cbn.net.id...

> "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
> news:407E4D91...@luckymojo.com...
> >
> > Indeed -- i found some interesting articles and some wonderfully
> > intriguing Indonesian Islamic talismans shown there. This is a
> > site that should be of interest to anyone interested in Islamic
> > magic.
>
> Yes, but I would not say it is entirely islamic magick, most of the art is
> originally Hindu hundreds of years ago, before converted to Islam as
> variation.

Cat is trying to put some false conceptual limits around that site in
the minds of people who then won't bother to check it out for themselves,
since it is a possible competitor for her own business. So, by trying to
misrepresent the site as exclusively concerned with Islamic magic, she can
limit the amount of trade they might siphon from her own crop of potential
customers.

"Welcome to the world of Shamanism, occultism, occult powers, psychicism,
ESP, genies, magickal pearls, psychic projection, astral travel,
clairvoyance, spells, mustikas, telepathy, magical empowerment rituals,
martial-arts powers, knowledge papers - ebooks, talismans, amulets,
familiars,
jinns, occult secrets, invulnerability, invisibility, mind control, love
philters, empowered oils, collector's items, magickal woods & metals,
enchantment, etc.
Catalog of unusual talismans, amulets and magickal powers
of the Indonesian occult Islamic, Shamanic, and Kejawenese traditions."

Doesn't look exclusively Islamic to me.

catherine yronwode

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 11:30:28 PM4/15/04
to
~Jim wrote:
>
> Yes, but I would not say it is entirely islamic magick, most of the art is
> originally Hindu hundreds of years ago, before converted to Islam as
> variation.

I see. Thanks for the further information.

Cordially,

cat yronwode

~Jim

unread,
Apr 15, 2004, 11:36:25 AM4/15/04
to
The Characteristics of a Spiritual Master

We would like to point out some of the qualities of an adept or a true
spiritual Master of Metaphysics. By making this list it is hoped that the
metaphysical student will know a true Master when he meets one and also to
discover the right goals of attainment, the characteristics that should be
acquired in order to reach Mastership; however, we caution the reader not to
superficially adopt these characteristics in order to misrepresent
themselves as Masters.

A Master expresses beauty in everything he/she says, with every physical
movement, with every glance. He is likewise deeply sensitive to beauty in
all forms.

A Master never directs attention to himself. He never indulges in
self-aggrandizement, self-promotion, self-centered thought, self-
centeredness, etc. He is egoless.

A Master has a strong, steady gaze that penetrates the soul. They often seem
to be looking into the infinite distance.

A Master has deep respect for all members of the kingdoms of Nature.

A Master's very presence radiates power.

Unconditional love is a basic quality of a Master. A Master never judges. He
is always impersonal, detached and compassionate.

A true Master is a Master of Wisdom. His understanding of life and Cosmic
laws far exceeds those of the average person.

A Master though possessing some or all spiritual and psychic powers have
renounced their use except for emergencies and urgencies. He, therefore,
will hardly ever reveal to anyone that he has them.

A Master never commands he simply suggest, he never instills fear but
awakens courage. He never makes you feel bad of yourself; on the contrary,
he helps you build self-esteem.

As a rule, a Master never predicts a person's future and he never flatters
the human ego.

A Master will always lead and direct you to the ultimate goal. Though he may
teach the lower laws, truths and forces applicable to the improvement of
mundane life he will not place too much emphasis upon them instructing that
the phenomenal world is nothing but a dream and is illusory from the
absolute perspective. He will direct your attention to more important
matters.

A Master seldom speaks of his past, of himself, of his background, etc.,
unless it is pertinent and useful as illustrations in the conveyance of
spiritual teachings to others.

A Master is detached from the occurrences of mundane life and the effects of
human experience. He would never feel psychological pain should he find
himself in adverse conditions, neither would he feel too overjoyed in times
of prosperity. He is psychologically stable and centered, and is in a
constant state of bliss at all times no matter what the outer circumstance.

A Master is universal and non-sectarian in his attitudes. He sees all men as
an expression of the Supreme regardless of their religious leanings, their
color, race, sex, etc. Though a Master may not be religious, he is deeply
spiritual.

A true Master is creatively original. Being enlightened by his own divine
essence a Master would teach or even write books directly from his heart and
own experience. He would never plagiarize the work of another or teach
things that are outmoded. It should be realized though that most Masters do
not write many books--they leave that to their disciples.

Masters do not argue. They know that no amount of argument would convince
the skeptic, and to those who are true seekers no argument would be
necessary. They also never proclaim or reveal their spiritual status and
speak only when their words are beneficial and cause positive motion.
Masters, are therefore, usually reticent.

A Master embodies most, if not all of the divine virtues.

A Master is sweet, simple, and childlike; but when they focus their
attention upon the problems of humanity they are a fount of wisdom.
A Master is often unpredictable, and his ways are not always understood.

A true spiritual Master never engages or indulges in low psychic activities.
A Master serves by awakening the slumbering soul within man.

Although compassionate, a Master never sympathize with the feelings of the
human ego for he does not recognize imperfection, he is
simply aware of the perfection of God indwelling in the divine spark within
microcosmic man.

A Master has no longer any egoic desires, he no longer functions from the
personality level; he has long given up his human will in favor of the
expression of the Divine Will of God.

A Master never complains, he knows no suffering for he transcends it. He
also knows no death for his consciousness goes way beyond the confines of
time and space.

A true Master does not hasten a student's psychic growth prematurely by any
"transference" of power. He always predominately concentrates upon raising
the consciousness, improving the character, the spirituality, and increasing
the wisdom and the understanding of his students.

A Master never judges the outer person of others but looks into the depths
of their soul for value.

A Master never makes others feel guilty or sinful in any way, however, he
does lead others from darkness into Light.

Although detached, impersonal, and sometimes seemingly aloof, a Master is
full of affection for his chelas (students).

A Master appreciates every small service that is offered to him and the
great work of manifesting the Divine Plan.

Perhaps one of the most outstanding and admirable characteristics of
Spiritual Masters is that they do not consider themselves as Masters. This
is their humility. They know that they still have a considerable amount of
things to master and learn; they are so much aware that they are still
undergoing the learning process and are embarrassed to call themselves
"Masters" or have anyone else call them that.

By explaining the above the writer of this article does not imply in any way
that he's a Spiritual Master--far from it. The road where he is standing
still extends to the unseen distance. In any case, it is not for the human
ego to assert. We emphasize the principle that by the fruits we shall know
the tree. In truth, the human ego is nothing--God everything. In performing
their divine and spiritual duties Spiritual Masters declare: "It is not I
that works but the 'Father' within me."


Tom

unread,
Apr 16, 2004, 10:56:35 AM4/16/04
to

"catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message
news:407F556E...@luckymojo.com...

Apparently, you have been dismissed, Jim. Don't be tiresome, now.


~Jim

unread,
Apr 16, 2004, 11:50:30 AM4/16/04
to
No, I won't be tiresome to posting new info and information, Tom. In fact
I'm not just talking solely to Cat, I want to hear all opinion from all of
you guys. Stop hiding and share your ideas. What are we here for, to flame
each other? I don't think so. I am here to learn new ideas and debate
constructively. RIGHT? :))) Some of my post is still left unreplied, nobody
has any idea what I'm talking about there? :p


"Tom" <danto...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:DuSfc.12776$k05....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Tom

unread,
Apr 17, 2004, 10:39:01 AM4/17/04
to

"~Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:4080...@news.cbn.net.id...

> Stop hiding and share your ideas. What are we here for, to flame
> each other? I don't think so.

"We"? Don't assume that "we" all agree on why "we" post here.

> I am here to learn new ideas and debate
> constructively. RIGHT? :)))

That's better. Speak for yourself, not for others.

> Some of my post is still left unreplied, nobody
> has any idea what I'm talking about there? :p

Probably not. Either that or you don't have any idea why others chose to
ignore some of your posts.


Lindsey Carr

unread,
Apr 17, 2004, 12:53:34 PM4/17/04
to
"Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message news:<4077...@news.cbn.net.id>...
> Thanks for the tips.
> Quote:"Use the pen knife to carve a slit-shaped hole in the root and wedge
> your hair and his hair in there together." Is this potion (woman clit on the
> jack the conqueror still necesarry? what to do on the substitute: Queen
> Elizabeth Root ?
>
> Regarding the dirt:
> Hmm... I don't think I have the audacity to throw anything to her Cat.. :)


You don't have the audacity to throw anything to her, but you can work
up the courage to make her so ill she almost dies? That's pretty
audacious.

They're low tricks and they make you unworthy of her love.

If she ever catches you putting graveyard dirt in her shoe or peeing
on peices of paper with her name on them, she'll think you're a
weirdo, and that'll be the end of it.

> but I think I can sneak a tiny amount inside her shoe. Just the graveyard
> dirt? What else/rituals/ingridients should I do/mix with the graveyard dirt
> to bind her love? This graveyard dirt in no usual dirt. It is over 10 year
> old in possesion of one of my staff taken from a really powerful spiritual
> grave. (there's a magical story behind the accumulation of it) And I'd like
> to be well informed on how to properly make a good use of this dirt for
> love.
>
> As an example, my staff has sprinkle some of the dirt to his enemy's shop,
> and ask beforehand that the spirit on the dirt to stop any sales coming in
> for 3 days. According to him, it work immediately! The shop cannot sell
> anything for 3 days straight.
>
> Cat, Do you supply most ingridients of love me or die spells?
>
> Regards,
> Jim


>
> "catherine yronwode" <c...@luckymojo.com> wrote in message

> news:40772618...@luckymojo.com...
> > Jim wrote:
> > >
> > > "love me or die"
> > > http://www.luckymojo.com/lovespells.html#lovemeordiejackball
> > > spell is quite tempting, but indicated as a spell
> > > directed for a woman to bind a man. Did I
> > > get it wrong?
> >
> > That is correct -- it is a spell that a woman performs to
> > coerce a man. To change the gender, use a Queen Elizabeth
> > Root instead of a John the Conqueror Root. All other gender
> > references may then be changed and it would be symbolically
> > appropriate.
> >
> > > I'm interested in performing a spell with graveyard
> > > dirt/goofer dust. In fact, I happen to possess
> > > a dirt from a local ancient
> > > sacret graveyard dirt, but currently have
> > > no idea how to use them properly.
> > > Sprinkle in in her yard where she will step on it? What else?
> >
> > No, you do not sprinkle it in her yard but on the person (or
> > on their clothes or in their shoes). There is a graveyard
> > dirt love spell online about a third of the way down the
> > Graveyard Dirt page at
> >
> > http://www.luckymojo.com/graveyarddirt.html
> >
> > along with an old blues song describing the spell -- and
> > another version of it using Goofer Dust (a compound made
> > with graveyard dirt) can be found as Hyatt spell #659 about
> > a third of the way down the Goofer Dust page at
> >
> > http://www.luckymojo.com/gooferdust.html
> >
> > Cordially,
> >
> > cat yronwode
> >
> > Herb and Root Magic --- http://www.luckymojo.com/hoodooherbmagic.html

bgumulja1119

unread,
Apr 20, 2004, 11:18:16 PM4/20/04
to
Jim,

have you consider this site?

http://www.bezoarstones.com

products are from Indonesia as well...

ag


"~Jim" <ki...@hotpop.com> wrote in message
news:407d72c7$1...@news.cbn.net.id...

~Jim

unread,
Apr 21, 2004, 6:12:24 AM4/21/04
to
Yes, I'm familar with that.
Thanks.


"bgumulja1119" <bgumul...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:YJlhc.170344$2oI1....@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

0 new messages