I have been watching this group debate over if obe is real or not. Well Janice I know you have a book out & your a long time lucid dreamer. However I must disagree with your conclusions. How about the brain dead who are revived to life? Don't say noone has been brain dead and come back. A man in my home town was brain dead over 30 minutes, its on record. Both police & doctors say it happened. No heart beat & brain dead, yet he described the same near death scene that all nde'rs claim, except he saw the God of the bible not all seem to do that. He is not the first to be brain dead and come back to tell of the other side. As for myself I have astral projected for over 25 years & thousands of times. I have not always been able to verify my exp, however many times I have. I have touched a person while oob & they felt it. Scared them half to death. But the big one is I have been seen by others while oob, in an exact place where I was in the exact time. I have also verified many many scenes I saw while oob. So I can never deny it is real. I will also say this, I have had lucid dreams many times, they are similar but not exact to obe. I feel all dreams take place on some level of the astral.
Got a question for ya? How about Bradley Burrows ? He was BORN without sight, he never saw anything for his mind to make up. Yet while having a near death exp he saw for the first time while out of body, explain this?
> I have been watching this group debate over if obe is real or not. > Well Janice I know you have a book out & your a long time lucid dreamer. > However I must disagree with your conclusions. > How about the brain dead who are revived to life? Don't say noone has > been brain dead and come back. A man in my home town was brain dead > over 30 minutes, its on record. Both police & doctors say it happened. > No heart beat & brain dead, yet he described the same near death scene > that all nde'rs claim, except he saw the God of the bible not all seem > to do that. He is not the first to be brain dead and come back to tell > of the other side. As for myself I have astral projected for over 25 > years & thousands of times. I have not always been able to verify my > exp, however many times I have. I have touched a person while oob & > they felt it. Scared them half to death. But the big one is I have > been seen by others while oob, in an exact place where I was in the > exact time. I have also verified many many scenes I saw while oob. > So I can never deny it is real. > I will also say this, I have had lucid dreams many times, they are > similar but not exact to obe. I feel all dreams take place on some > level of the astral.
The term "brain-dead" is a little misleading since death, by definition, is something you don't recover from. All we can say is that any activity in a brain in that state is below the level which can be detected by current technology.
The other problem with OBEs or near-death experiences reported while in this state is that they could have occured during the periods of unconsciousness immediately before and after the state of "brain-death".
> Got a question for ya? How about Bradley Burrows ? He was BORN without > sight, he never saw anything for his mind to make up. > Yet while having a near death exp he saw for the first time while out of > body, explain this?
Blind people are able to build up a remarkably detailed picture of the world around them based on information from the other senses. In the case of things they reported "seeing" while OBE, the test would be to see if they saw something they couldn't have picked up any other way like accurately describing the colours of things.
In article <8954-3ED1B218-...@storefull-2238.public.lawson.webtv.net>, ELthe...@webtv.net says...
>I have been watching this group debate over if obe is real or not. >Well Janice I know you have a book out & your a long time lucid dreamer. >However I must disagree with your conclusions.
That's fine with me. Disagreement is a good thing. :-)
>How about the brain dead who are revived to life? Don't say noone has >been brain dead and come back. A man in my home town was brain dead >over 30 minutes, its on record. Both police & doctors say it happened. >No heart beat & brain dead, yet he described the same near death scene >that all nde'rs claim, except he saw the God of the bible not all seem >to do that. He is not the first to be brain dead and come back to tell >of the other side. As for myself I have astral projected for over 25 >years & thousands of times. I have not always been able to verify my >exp, however many times I have. I have touched a person while oob & >they felt it. Scared them half to death. But the big one is I have >been seen by others while oob, in an exact place where I was in the >exact time. I have also verified many many scenes I saw while oob. >So I can never deny it is real.
Then you'll understand that since I haven't been able to verify any, in the course of countless OBEs, I don't have any basis for assuming it is real.
>I will also say this, I have had lucid dreams many times, they are >similar but not exact to obe.
For you that may be the case. For others they are virtually identical except for the means of induction.
>I feel all dreams take place on some >level of the astral.
>Got a question for ya? How about Bradley Burrows ? He was BORN without >sight, he never saw anything for his mind to make up. >Yet while having a near death exp he saw for the first time while out of >body, explain this?
In article <8954-3ED1B218-...@storefull-2238.public.lawson.webtv.net>, ELthe...@webtv.net (Gary Wayne) wrote:
> A man in my home town was brain dead > over 30 minutes, its on record. Both police & doctors say it happened. > No heart beat & brain dead, yet he described the same near death scene
No, I'm sorry, I don't believe you.
Without a heartbeat for 30 minutes, and without artifical means of sustaining life, there would have been profound and widespread cell death and the onset of decay. Revivification would have been impossible.
Even if this were possible, the duration of the 'death' is irrelevant. NDEs are imaginary constructs created by the brain during the transition into consciousness or unconsciousness.
> Got a question for ya? How about Bradley Burrows ? He was BORN without > sight, he never saw anything for his mind to make up. > Yet while having a near death exp he saw for the first time while out of > body, explain this?
> Conclusion OBE IS REAL
> GW
Is there a link with this story of Bradley Burrows? I like to read on NDE's of the blind and especially children. To me, reading young children's experiences in NDE's and OOBE's are examples, proof positive, in the fact of oobes, afterlife, etc. They have no reason to lie. They are not preprogrammed with any information of heaven, hell, or what an OOBE is, or is not, yet they experience them consistently in the same way they have been experienced by all.
And in regards to your other post, it does seem really fishy for someone to say they've experienced OBE and still doubt its reality. The experience itself is by far enough to prove its reality.
In article <14b6a4e3.0305260836.21af4...@posting.google.com>, Celestial_Sound...@hotmail.com says...
>And in regards to your other post, it does seem really fishy for >someone to say they've experienced OBE and still doubt its reality. >The experience itself is by far enough to prove its reality.
Only if you get one that you can verify in some way. Not everyone does.
You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death. The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God. I don't really care if you believe me. Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in God so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of body group if you don't believe in it?
In article <14219-3ED25515-...@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net>, ELthe...@webtv.net (Gary Wayne) wrote:
> PZ,
> You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a > miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death. > The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God.
Oy. What a loon.
> I don't really care if you believe me. > Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police > reports that your calling liars not me.
OK, maybe they were lying, and you aren't; you're just dim enough to believe a ridiculous lie.
> But I doubt you believe in God
I definitely do not.
> so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of > body group if you don't believe in it?
I've been through *this* nonsense before. Did you think you had to swear an oath to only defend one point of view before you are allowed to post here?
>>And in regards to your other post, it does seem really fishy for >>someone to say they've experienced OBE and still doubt its reality. >>The experience itself is by far enough to prove its reality.
>Only if you get one that you can verify in some way. Not everyone does.
When I was a teenager, I assumed that my OBEs were literal separations simply because they felt like they were and because I had heard of such things. It was only after I got brave enough to actually explore during them and critically minded enough to question my assumptions that I changed my mind. So experience is a very personal thing! :-)
In article <14219-3ED25515-...@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net>, ELthe...@webtv.net says...
>Why be on an out of body group if you don't believe in it?
Why not? It's interesting to learn about other people's points of view, and I for one enjoy OBEs as much as anyone else regardless of how I happen to interpret them or what aspect of them I decide to focus on.
> You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a > miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death. > The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God. > I don't really care if you believe me. > Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police > reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in God > so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of > body group if you don't believe in it?
> GW
Just checking in here to see a few old friends .........
GW, In the state of mind I'm in right now you can take those Christian beliefs and stuff them. I've just spent 10 months working for a small company of Christian fundamentalists. They sure do know how to make a person's life hell if you're not the joiner.
Not as if this is relevent to the topic of OBEs ... but I really don't care.
Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
> In article <14219-3ED25515-...@storefull-2233.public.lawson.webtv.net>, > ELthe...@webtv.net says...
> >Why be on an out of body group if you don't believe in it?
> Why not? It's interesting to learn about other people's points of view, > and I for one enjoy OBEs as much as anyone else regardless of how I > happen to interpret them or what aspect of them I decide to focus on.
Seriously! What the hell ... is there only one opinion allowed in here now? LOL
BTW ... Hi Janice! I received that Hannibal link you sent over. Thanks. : ) A bunch of people on my serial killer message board had a field day with it.
In article <udBAa.17509$rO.1581...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, spiritof9pla...@earthlink.net says...
>BTW ... Hi Janice! I received that Hannibal link you sent over. Thanks. > : ) A bunch of people on my serial killer message board had a field day >with it.
> And in regards to your other post, it does seem really fishy for > someone to say they've experienced OBE and still doubt its reality. > The experience itself is by far enough to prove its reality.
> Take care.
> Celestial > (Darryl E. Berry Jr.)
*coughbullsh*tcough*
What's fishy is that someone would simply accept the experience without questioning what is going on.
In article <pxBAa.17527$rO.1584...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, spiritof9pla...@earthlink.net says...
>So what's been going on around these parts? Any specifically interesting >threads? Point me in the right direction.
Hmm, there's the "old hag syndrome" thread, and the "Accidental OBE" thread, and "Question for All," and "OOB Experiences, didn't know what to call them."
> > You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a > > miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death. > > The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God. > > I don't really care if you believe me. > > Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police > > reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in God > > so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of > > body group if you don't believe in it?
> > GW
> Just checking in here to see a few old friends .........
> GW, In the state of mind I'm in right now you can take those Christian > beliefs and stuff them. I've just spent 10 months working for a small > company of Christian fundamentalists. They sure do know how to make a > person's life hell if you're not the joiner.
It's interesting that the more fundamentalist they become the less "Christian" they are.
> Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
What else? It's a bit like the trench warfare of World War One.
Welcome back, anyway, Trish! The old group has been through a bit of a lean spell recently.
> In article <8954-3ED1B218-...@storefull-2238.public.lawson.webtv.net>, > ELthe...@webtv.net says... > >I have been watching this group debate over if obe is real or not. > >Well Janice I know you have a book out & your a long time lucid dreamer. > >However I must disagree with your conclusions.
> That's fine with me. Disagreement is a good thing. :-)
> >How about the brain dead who are revived to life? Don't say noone has > >been brain dead and come back. A man in my home town was brain dead > >over 30 minutes, its on record. Both police & doctors say it happened. > >No heart beat & brain dead, yet he described the same near death scene > >that all nde'rs claim, except he saw the God of the bible not all seem > >to do that. He is not the first to be brain dead and come back to tell > >of the other side. As for myself I have astral projected for over 25 > >years & thousands of times. I have not always been able to verify my > >exp, however many times I have. I have touched a person while oob & > >they felt it. Scared them half to death. But the big one is I have > >been seen by others while oob, in an exact place where I was in the > >exact time. I have also verified many many scenes I saw while oob. > >So I can never deny it is real.
> Then you'll understand that since I haven't been able to verify any, in > the course of countless OBEs, I don't have any basis for assuming it is > real.
I thought you have had some small verifications, Janice... no?
> >I will also say this, I have had lucid dreams many times, they are > >similar but not exact to obe.
> For you that may be the case. For others they are virtually identical > except for the means of induction.
I have heard quite a few including myself and Richard for two that have made the claim that OBE and LD are much different experiences.
> >I feel all dreams take place on some > >level of the astral.
> >Got a question for ya? How about Bradley Burrows ? He was BORN without > >sight, he never saw anything for his mind to make up. > >Yet while having a near death exp he saw for the first time while out of > >body, explain this?
> > Conclusion OBE IS REAL
> How about:
> *Some* OBEs may be real. :-)
Oh great. Now what am I supposed to do with that? Do you *really* believe some OBE's are real? As in literal?
> > You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a > > miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death. > > The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God. > > I don't really care if you believe me. > > Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police > > reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in God > > so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of > > body group if you don't believe in it?
> > GW
> Just checking in here to see a few old friends .........
> GW, In the state of mind I'm in right now you can take those Christian > beliefs and stuff them. I've just spent 10 months working for a small > company of Christian fundamentalists. They sure do know how to make a > person's life hell if you're not the joiner.
I'm not a religious fanatic nor do I even believe in organized religion but I think the true "science only" believers can make a person's life hell too ;)
> Not as if this is relevent to the topic of OBEs ... but I really don't care.
> Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
Yeh, it hasn't evolved into much of anything yet ;) Good to see you Trish!
> And in regards to your other post, it does seem really fishy for > someone to say they've experienced OBE and still doubt its reality. > The experience itself is by far enough to prove its reality.
Oh not true at all. One of the biggest problems I see here is everyone pushing their belief of their experience on others. I have had countless OOBE experiences. All spontanious since childhood. Because I have doubts of what exactly this experience is does not hardly negate my experience nor make me fishy and I take great offense at your insinuation. The experience itself does prove the reality of the experience only. It has not proved to me one way or the other exactly what it is. If it has for you then that's wonderful but don't offend me by saying my questioning of my experiences as "fishy"
I can say at least the skeptics have pointed me to scientific explanations and theorys to ponder. I would love for some of the true believers of literal OBE to be able to assure me of what my experiences ar rather than just stating that they are OBE's.
I'll probably be on the fence on this forever. If I ever do prove it to myself I don't think I would try to make others believe it but would honestly look for ways to provide evidence for it.
> > > You are right but wrong to, I left out the fact that it was a > > > miracle from God , his Christian wife prayed for his return from death. > > > The bible does say Christians can raise the dead if its the will of God. > > > I don't really care if you believe me. > > > Its the doctors the man , the video that was taken and the police > > > reports that your calling liars not me. But I doubt you believe in God > > > so ill not answer you again, it would be no use. Why be on an out of > > > body group if you don't believe in it?
> > > GW
> > Just checking in here to see a few old friends .........
> > GW, In the state of mind I'm in right now you can take those Christian > > beliefs and stuff them. I've just spent 10 months working for a small > > company of Christian fundamentalists. They sure do know how to make a > > person's life hell if you're not the joiner.
> It's interesting that the more fundamentalist they become the > less "Christian" they are.
Oh so true.
> > Anyway ... looks like the skeptic vs believer debate is still going on.
> What else? It's a bit like the trench warfare of World War One.
> Welcome back, anyway, Trish! The old group has been through a > bit of a lean spell recently.
> Ian
Good "seeing" you Ian! Maybe I can litter the place up a bit. Give it that "lived-in" look again. ; )
