Garrison
Kathy Philipps
Unless you have experienced being out of your body, you have no idea
how to comprehend what these people are saying.I realize you are
enjoying yourself and I'm enjoying reading your responses. Continue
playing your game so you can receive the attention you obviously crave.
kathy philipps
John M Price PhD
: No, we can't prove any of this and you can't prove it hasn't happened.
Why are you using the word 'prove'? The point is evidence, not
necessarily proof, though evidence does go a long way.
And yes, with proper controls, the evidence can fall either way. For
instance, say a group of honest folk get together, put something into a
safe, and the OBEer says they went there and saw the bearded guard at the
safe, went through the walls, and say a painting of a seascape.
OK so far. Having taped the report for later transcription, we all travel
to the safe together, the witnesses having been called to meet at the
safe. There we have the cute young female guard open the safe, and find
within only a silly little blow up sheep doll, and of course the sealed,
dated, and notarized envelopes of the group of people witnessing the
event. All the sealed statements state that a blow-up sheep doll was
locked in the safe, only that and the statements.
The OBEer meets the witnesses for the first time, all have coffee to
discuss the report which all listen to together. We review the guards at
the safe, they are all (two - there was one shift change) female. Their
supervisor does not have a beard.
How would you rate this evidence?
How would you rate it if a seascape painting was found?
Would you discount one event, and not the other, WRT your understanding of
the OOBE?
--
John M. Price, PhD jmp...@calweb.com
Life: Chemistry, but with feeling! | PGP Key on request or FTP!
Email responses to my Usenet articles will be posted at my discretion.
Comoderator: sci.psychology.psychotherapy.moderated Atheist# 683
Syndicate Section III - Number 1
It is wrong always, everywhere and for anyone, to believe anything upon
insufficient evidence.
- W. K. Clifford
Mark Baron
wonder about OBEs in general. Why is it that we always assume an OBE is in
"real-time." What I mean is this. One does an OBE for,say, 30 minutes. They
make their observations, then return. We assume that an OBE is like getting
into a car, going to the grocery store, and coming back. You go, it takes X
number of minutes, then you come back. What if it's not like that? As an
example, the movie "Contact" touched on this. They built a machine that was
supposed to send this capsule to another world. They dropped the capsule
into the machine and it feel right through it. To the observers on the
outside, nothing happened. But to Elly, the person in the capsule, the ride
took 18 hours. And she had the experience of going to another world.
So what if, after a little investigation, we find out that 3 months before
the experiment took place a bearded guard worked at the bank? What if we
also learned that a painting of a seascape was stored in that safe at about
the same time the guard was working there? So what do you have now? The
experiment was a complete miss. But now you have this other information.
What does it prove? It makes for an interesting anecdote but would it be
evidence?
If you go back in time, it could be said the information was available to
the test subject and proves nothing. If you go forward in time, the reported
scenario could have been setup by the test subject or coincidence and again
nothing is proven.
What would be left? An interesting anecdote that would be of great interest
to one who believes in OBEs, and a failed scientific experiment.
My main point is that an OBE may not be a real-time event.
---
Mark Baron
"Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you are a mile away from them
and you have their shoes."
----------
In article <38519...@news.calweb.com>, John M Price PhD
John Garrison
Not a failed scientific experiment, just a scientific experiment that
those stupid enough to try such a simple measure for such an obviously
complex phenomenon could never hope to interpret.
See what I mean, go here http://www.msnbc.com/news/341850.asp and read
the article, I am talking to you mister John PHd and Mister professional
skeptic Garrison.
What you are saying Mark ties in perfectly with my ERP bridge theory,
that we can mentally cross over to the other dimensions that our entire
bodies are connected to at the quanta level. It would be perfectly
feasible under this theory that the reality you are seeing while
projecting is one that has already happened. But the skeptics don't want
an answer because then they wouldn't have anything to do with their
lives. It must be a sad sad life when all you have to do is run around
calling people liars.
--
http://www.scinomaly.org : Science outside the norm.
Mark Baron
doll (blow-up sheep doll?!? I feel a good joke coming on, but let's not go
there) and the sealed statements. But the subject sees something else. A
vortex of some kind is forming next to the safe. Something is coming out.
It's Micky Mouse. And he has a book. It's Mien Kampf. He opens it and begins
to recite from it. Nonsense? Maybe. But how would that be received? The test
subject might even be embarrassed about the whole Micky Mouse thing and not
even report it! But maybe it was information that would have been meaningful
upon further investigation.
I think it is important that if we have an OBE and want to share it, we
report the whole thing. Warts and all.
John Garrison
>
> Or what if this happened. The test subject OBEs, reports the blow-up sheep
> doll (blow-up sheep doll?!? I feel a good joke coming on, but let's not go
> there) and the sealed statements. But the subject sees something else. A
> vortex of some kind is forming next to the safe. Something is coming out.
> It's Micky Mouse. And he has a book. It's Mien Kampf. He opens it and begins
> to recite from it. Nonsense? Maybe. But how would that be received? The test
> subject might even be embarrassed about the whole Micky Mouse thing and not
> even report it! But maybe it was information that would have been meaningful
> upon further investigation.
>
> I think it is important that if we have an OBE and want to share it, we
> report the whole thing. Warts and all.
>
This is part of the reason why skepticism hold back science so much.
Galileo was convicted of heresy for siding with Copernicus' theories. Of
course none of us here are going to be convicted of heresy, but we will
be laughed at and ridiculed by the same skeptics that claim to be
looking for the truth.
I have heard far too many stories of the paranormal for them not to be
true. Most scientists I think realize that they are not capable of
finding the answer and thus call such activities "impossible". This
causes the people that are experiencing the stuff to not want to
cooperate to the fullest extent with said scientists, as per your above
example.
Bellerophon
> I have heard far too many stories of the paranormal for them not to be
> true.
I have heard countless stories of all types myself.
I still view them as stories, and regardless of the myriad of tales about
Santa Claus, well, I still find myself going to the toy store and tiptoeing
around in the wee hours of a xmas morn....
******************************************************
Bellerophon | 'There ain't nothin' you
mor...@channel1.com | shouldn't do to a god.'
******* http://www.channel1.com/users/morbius/ *******
John Garrison
>
> In article <3852617D...@visi.net>, John Garrison <j...@visi.net> wrote:
>
> > I have heard far too many stories of the paranormal for them not to be
> > true.
>
> I have heard countless stories of all types myself.
>
> I still view them as stories, and regardless of the myriad of tales about
> Santa Claus, well, I still find myself going to the toy store and tiptoeing
> around in the wee hours of a xmas morn....
How is this a good analogy? The kids are TOLD santa is real, the adults
EXPERIENCE the paranormal.
Jerry Adams
and then they must be destroyed. Those signs are there for a reason!
Ranger Bob
John Garrison wrote in message <38536F8F...@visi.net>...