Calling all religious/NDE/OBE kooks
Andres64
I heard a story on BBC today about an extensive investigation into
Near Death Experiences (NDE) and Out of Body Experiences (OBE). The
researchers are going to put images into emergency/operating rooms.
These images are not going to be visible at ground level, but anybody
claiming to have had an OBE and floating above their body should be
able to tell what the image is.
Care to make any bets as to the excuses for why they can't?
Therion Ware
Sue Blackmore (of Meme machine fame, et al) did some very interesting
research into this some years ago ran a very similar set of
experiments. Oddly enough no one was ever able to accurately describe
the picture on her bedroom wall. Though many tried, using varying
methodologies...
See <http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/si91nde.html>
for a start.
And I know, because I was one of her subjects! I think I was around
20 something at the time...
FWIW: IMO An OBE seems to the person undergoing it to be real, though
in my experience there are considerable volitional differences from
what we (... well what "I"...) laughingly call real life, and when
one attempts to verify previously unknown knowledge or information
one has obtained during an OBE it mostly doesn't pan out and certainly
not above chance levels.
I think the OBE experience has a certain value (and anyone can learn
how to do it), say a value on a par with psychodrama, and useful in
the same sense.
But the interesting question to my mind (such as it is) is what are
the brain structures and mechanisms that allow this experience?
YMMV.
MarkA
I've listened to Dr.B interviewed on "Point of Inquiry". She is very
interesting. It's cool that you were one of her subjects.
It appears that there is a brain function that is responsible for
connecting your sense of your own self to your physical body. When that
center is disrupted, you "feel" unconnected from your body, though you are
unable to actually see things in remote locations.
It is one more example of how subjective experience is completely
unreliable as a guide to what is really going on. If a few milliamps of
electric current to a particular spot on your cerebral cortex is enough to
make you feel like you are floating above your body, looking down on the
scene, or gives you a feeling of euphoric connection to the entire
Universe, what hope is there that any such experiences can provide
information about anything beyond the unusual subjective experiences that
brain chemistry can provoke?
--
MarkA
Keeper of Things Put There Only Just The Night Before
About eight o'clock
neo
Because that way, OBE people can enter in privacy of other people or
steal nuke technology to destroy world.
And separate neuroscience from religion. OBE got nothing to do with
religion.
BTW, when somebody is experiencing OBE, what if that person is killed
or his 'real' body is stolen?
Uncle Vic
>
> Andres64 wrote:
>> Better start thinking of your excuses now.
>>
>> I heard a story on BBC today about an extensive investigation into
>> Near Death Experiences (NDE) and Out of Body Experiences (OBE). The
>> researchers are going to put images into emergency/operating rooms.
>> These images are not going to be visible at ground level, but anybody
>> claiming to have had an OBE and floating above their body should be
>> able to tell what the image is.
>>
>> Care to make any bets as to the excuses for why they can't?
>
> Because that way, OBE people can enter in privacy of other people or
> steal nuke technology to destroy world.
>
> And separate neuroscience from religion. OBE got nothing to do with
> religion.
What are you talking about? NDE and OBE are commonly used to "prove" there
is life after death.
>
> BTW, when somebody is experiencing OBE, what if that person is killed
> or his 'real' body is stolen?
>
I would imagine it would be as if he died for real.
--
Uncle Vic
aa Atheist #2011
Separator of Church and Reason.
Convicted by Earthquack.
Nosterill
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 03:19:13 -0700 (PDT), Andres64
>
> >Better start thinking of your excuses now.
>
> >I heard a story on BBC today about an extensive investigation into
> >Near Death Experiences (NDE) and Out of Body Experiences (OBE). The
> >researchers are going to put images into emergency/operating rooms.
> >These images are not going to be visible at ground level, but anybody
> >claiming to have had an OBE and floating above their body should be
> >able to tell what the image is.
>
> >Care to make any bets as to the excuses for why they can't?
>
> Sue Blackmore (of Meme machine fame, et al) did some very interesting
> research into this some years ago ran a very similar set of
> experiments. Oddly enough no one was ever able to accurately describe
> the picture on her bedroom wall. Though many tried, using varying
> methodologies...
People were having near death experiences in her bedroom??? Scary
woman!
Cary Kittrell
> On Sep 18, 12:39=A0pm, Therion Ware <autodel...@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 03:19:13 -0700 (PDT), Andres64
> >
> > <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
> > >Better start thinking of your excuses now.
> >
> > >I heard a story on BBC today about an extensive investigation into
> > >researchers are going to put images into emergency/operating rooms.
> > >These images are not going to be visible at ground level, but anybody
> > >claiming to have had an OBE and floating above their body should be
> > >able to tell what the image is.
> >
> > >Care to make any bets as to the excuses for why they can't?
> >
> > Sue Blackmore (of Meme machine fame, et al) did some very interesting
> > research into this some years ago ran a very similar set of
> > experiments. Oddly enough no one was ever able to accurately describe
> > the picture on her bedroom wall. Though many tried, using varying
> > methodologies...
>
> People were having near death experiences in her bedroom??? Scary
> woman!
Oh, Susan's a hot little number, of at least that was the
impression I got from reading her books describing her
earlier career as a psi researcher. Left me with a
pronounced crush on her.
I recommend these books. She spent many years struggling to
find out why she so consistently failed to get positive
results from her experiments, and even got negative
results when trying to replicate the successful experiments
of other resesarchers.
Bottom line: turns out she was doing better science. But it took
her more than a little time, effort, and emotional struggle
to come to this realization.
-- cary
martin
>
> Oh, Susan's a hot little number, of at least that was the
> impression I got from reading her books describing her
> earlier career as a psi researcher.
She still is :) Saw her do a presentation in London during the summer, I
hope she is ready to carry on her research again soon. She's a good
scientist.
Cary Kittrell
You did? Cool! What color -- wait, that would have been a
silly question -- what colors was her hair at that point?
-- cary
Therion Ware
Dr. Sue discovered that Dr. Carl Sargent faked his results. I have
something to say about this, in due course.
In the meantime, here's the link:
<http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/Articles/JSPR%201987.htm>
At the time I knew Carl well and the then Professor of Experimental
Psychology at the University of Cambridge [England] ( O. L. Zangwill
at the time, who I knew better ) had always maintained that he would
allow a parapsychology Ph.D project providing whoever wanted to do it
had a Cambridge first.
IIRC Carl had a double first.
Which just goes to show.
The guy I really felt sorry for was the guy Carl was supervising.
neo
Uncle Vic wrote:
> One fine day in alt.atheism, neo <The...@live.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Andres64 wrote:
> >> Better start thinking of your excuses now.
> >>
> >> I heard a story on BBC today about an extensive investigation into
> >> Near Death Experiences (NDE) and Out of Body Experiences (OBE). The
> >> researchers are going to put images into emergency/operating rooms.
> >> These images are not going to be visible at ground level, but anybody
> >> claiming to have had an OBE and floating above their body should be
> >> able to tell what the image is.
> >>
> >> Care to make any bets as to the excuses for why they can't?
> >
> > Because that way, OBE people can enter in privacy of other people or
> > steal nuke technology to destroy world.
> >
> > And separate neuroscience from religion. OBE got nothing to do with
> > religion.
>
> What are you talking about? NDE and OBE are commonly used to "prove" there
> is life after death.
Quantum double slit experiment is used by buddhist to support buddha
that this universe is creation of mind. Hence quantum mechanics is
religious and physicists are kooks!
Cary Kittrell
Or, to reformulate that in Julia Sweeny's terminology: "DEEPAK CHOPRA IS FULL OF SHIT!"
-- cary
Cary Kittrell
I did download, and read that. Very interesting. Thanks for that.
-- cary
Iain
> Better start thinking of your excuses now.
>
> claiming to have had an OBE and floating above their body should be
> able to tell what the image is.
Why? Are you denying the experience itself exists?
> Care to make any bets as to the excuses for why they can't?
Erm, because OBEs are a hallucination?
What's your point?
~Iain
Andres64
> On Sep 18, 10:19 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> > Better start thinking of your excuses now.
>
> > but anybody
> > claiming to have had an OBE and floating above their body should be
> > able to tell what the image is.
>
> Why? Are you denying the experience itself exists?
Yes.
> > Care to make any bets as to the excuses for why they can't?
>
> Erm, because OBEs are a hallucination?
Yes.
> What's your point?
That they are kooks.
Iain
> > Why? Are you denying the experience itself exists?
>
> Yes.
This isn't an issue. I've had the experience. It's a brute fact.
~Iain
Iain
Andres64
No.
Andres64
No. It's your claim which is unsubstantiated.
Iain
But you don't ask for further substantiation when someone complains of
feeling faint. Why do you have misgivings about this particular
experience?
~Iain
David Mitchell
And, more to the point, how would you substantiate the claim?
If you're not willing to accept the word of people who've had the
experience what proof would you need?
I can fully understand that you might not accept their interpretation of
their experience, as I, generally, do not; but that many people have had
an experience which, to them, could be described as seeming to be outside
of their physical body, is not really in doubt.
--
=======================================================================
= David --- If you use Microsoft products, you will, inevitably, get
= Mitchell --- viruses, so please don't add me to your address book.
=======================================================================
Andres64
Lack of evidence.
Andres64
wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:10:33 -0800, Iain wrote:
> > On Nov 8, 12:32 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
> >> On Nov 7, 5:35 pm, Iain <iain_inks...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > On Nov 7, 7:18 pm, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > Why? Are you denying the experience itself exists?
>
> >> > > Yes.
>
> >> > This isn't an issue. I've had the experience. It's a brute fact.
>
> >> No. It's your claim which is unsubstantiated.
>
> > But you don't ask for further substantiation when someone complains of
> > feeling faint. Why do you have misgivings about this particular
> > experience?
>
> > ~Iain
>
> And, more to the point, how would you substantiate the claim?
By knowing things that one having had an OBE would be able to know;
such as described in the experiment above.
> If you're not willing to accept the word of people who've had the
> experience what proof would you need?
See above.
> I can fully understand that you might not accept their interpretation of
> their experience, as I, generally, do not; but that many people have had
> an experience which, to them, could be described as seeming to be outside
> of their physical body, is not really in doubt.
I'm not disputing that they had some experience; just that they had a
*real* OBE.
David Mitchell
> On Nov 10, 6:53 am, David Mitchell <da...@edenroad.demon.clo.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:10:33 -0800, Iain wrote:
>> > On Nov 8, 12:32 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
>> >> On Nov 7, 5:35 pm, Iain <iain_inks...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > On Nov 7, 7:18 pm, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> > > > Why? Are you denying the experience itself exists?
>>
>> >> > > Yes.
>>
>> >> > This isn't an issue. I've had the experience. It's a brute fact.
>>
>> >> No. It's your claim which is unsubstantiated.
>
>> I can fully understand that you might not accept their interpretation
>> of their experience, as I, generally, do not; but that many people have
>> had an experience which, to them, could be described as seeming to be
>> outside of their physical body, is not really in doubt.
>
> I'm not disputing that they had some experience; just that they had a
> *real* OBE.
Ah, I see. My mistake, I clearly came into this thread too late (my ISP
has been having Newsgroup problems).
From the above, it looked like you were denying that the experience
existed at all; which I'd dispute 'cos I've had one or two.
FWIW I don't believe they're anything paranormal either - I've been
"resident sceptic" in this NG for years, (to the disgust of many :-), and
I've been asking anyone who claims to have had a "real" one to test
themselves to see whether it's objectively real or not.
So far, not one has been willing to subject themselves to even that tiny
level of scrutiny; which rather suggests, to me, that deep down they know
it's not real; but they'd rather pretend to themselves that it is.
As to the mechanism, there's some evidence that it's associated with
Temporal Lobe Hallucinations - in particular see the work of Michael
Persinger.
David Mitchell
> FWIW I don't believe they're anything paranormal either - I've been
> "resident sceptic" in this NG for years, (to the disgust of many :-),
To clarify, the newsgroup I'm referring to is alt.out-of-body.
Iain
So if a person says they feel faint, but can't provide evidence, you
don't believe them?
Remember I'm talking about the experience itself.
~Iain
Iain
wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:27:43 -0800, Andres64 wrote:
> > On Nov 10, 6:53 am, David Mitchell <da...@edenroad.demon.clo.uk> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 10 Nov 2008 00:10:33 -0800, Iain wrote:
> >> > On Nov 8, 12:32 am, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
> >> >> On Nov 7, 5:35 pm, Iain <iain_inks...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> > On Nov 7, 7:18 pm, Andres64 <andres...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >> >> > > > Why? Are you denying the experience itself exists?
>
> >> >> > > Yes.
>
> >> >> > This isn't an issue. I've had the experience. It's a brute fact.
>
> >> >> No. It's your claim which is unsubstantiated.
>
> >> I can fully understand that you might not accept their interpretation
> >> of their experience, as I, generally, do not; but that many people have
> >> had an experience which, to them, could be described as seeming to be
> >> outside of their physical body, is not really in doubt.
>
> > I'm not disputing that they had some experience; just that they had a
> > *real* OBE.
>
> Ah, I see. My mistake, I clearly came into this thread too late (my ISP
> has been having Newsgroup problems).
>
> From the above, it looked like you were denying that the experience
> existed at all; which I'd dispute 'cos I've had one or two.
Andres64 was denying even that. I emphasised the distinction and he
still denied it.
~Iain
Iain
I said.......
> > > > Why? Are you denying the experience itself exists?
You said......
> > > Yes.
>
> > > > > Care to make any bets as to the excuses for why they can't?
>
> > > > Erm, because OBEs are a hallucination?
>
> > > Yes.
>
> > Didn't you just contradict yourself?
>
> No.
Yes you did.
You said
-That you deny the experience exists.
-That you believe the experience is a hallucination.
~Iain
Andres64
Do I deny that they had an experience of some sort? No. Do I deny
that they were actually out of their body? Yes.
Andres64
Exactly. They were not, in fact, actually out of their body as
claimed.
Iain
And in addition, you also said the experience itself doesn't exist.
Take more care next time.
~Iain
Andres64
Nope.
> Take more care next time.
Bite me.
chilli...@gmail.com
>
> BTW, when somebody is experiencing OBE, what if that person is killed
> or his 'real' body is stolen?
How would anyone know??? We're not going to see in a post
tomorrow...."Something took over my body last night and now I can't
get back in.....or Jane Doe died while she was having an obe....."
There are people who will swear up and down that none of this is
possible, but how do you really know?? Seriously. I have been having
spontaneous obes for over 17 years, have don't a lot of "reasearch" on
the Web, had thousands of obes, some of them really different than
others. I initially joined this group many years ago in hopes of
finding a "cure" to stop the obes. However, I haven't come across any
and I have learned to accept this part of my life, also due in part to
a "mentor" that came to my rescue during the early part of my obe life
and showed me how to use it, accecpt it, ect...thank you, Richard, if
you are still here.
Crystal
Yamato
wrote:
ok...
this is my first time to post here.. i think!!
the thing is i have been trying to have OBE for a long time.. and
couldnt!!
but lately i came very close to doing it.. as i believe.. it was like
my body is vibrating and thousands of sparks under my skin.. was i
that close?!
and what was i suppose to do to get over that part and have an OBE..
please?!!!
David Mitchell
> ok...
> this is my first time to post here.. i think!! the thing is i have been
> trying to have OBE for a long time.. and couldnt!!
> but lately i came very close to doing it.. as i believe.. it was like my
> body is vibrating and thousands of sparks under my skin.. was i that
> close?!
> and what was i suppose to do to get over that part and have an OBE..
> please?!!!
There are certainly lots of people who believe that the "Vibrations" are
connected with OBE's.
One of the most well-known is the late Robert Monroe, and I'd certainly
recommend that you read his books: "Journeys out of the Body" and "Far
Journeys". Especially the first.
He suggests the following:
http://www.margaretwendt.net/id22.html
chilli...@gmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Most times before an OBE you go through different "stages" before you
have one and this is one of them, at least one that I have experienced
many times. Sometimes I feel as though there is an energy (for lack
of a better word) that sweeps up and down my body and its intensity
varies....sometimes I can even control the intensity. Not everyone
goes through the same "stages" or any "stages" at all before an OBE.
I've been having them for 17 years, and have gone through many
different phases before reaching an OBE sometimes it seems like I go
through all of them, sometimes new ones, and as time passed sometimes
I would feel it coming and the next thing I know, I'm out. But
remember, my OBEs are spontaneous, I don't try for them or ask for
them, they just happen.
Crystal