Does Dell think every buyer is a moron??
Jori Remington
All I want is a single machine with Linux... I do some weekend
consulting work and may end up referring people to buy from Dell, but
would not do the purchasing myself due to tax issues.
Problem: When I call up the Home-office division, they DON'T offer
Linux. The salesman who answered the phone did not know what Linux
was. He asked me what it was and why I wanted it. I told him that what
I wanted to do is have a machine set up so that I could do weekend
development work for clients - things like word processing, internet
connections, etc. - typical home & business use which is what my
clientele wants. He told me that Windows has all that. I also told him
that Linux is free. To which he replied, "Windows is free, too." NO IT
ISN'T. I end up paying for it in the price of the machine. Besides
that, Windows98 is full of glitches that are driving users batty:
Just one example -
"http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9809/09/winglitches.idg/".
And why on an 8 Gig hard drive, do I only have 6.55 Gig free (this was
on a new HP machine my
Mother-in-law bought) with nothing installed except what came with the
machine?
Linux in my experience is much more stable and makes it easier to sell
to
customers (once I set it up for them).
That is why I want Linux, NOT Windows. I don't need the usual clap trap
about Windows being the best ever. I certainly don't appreciate being
lied to - MS-Windows IS NOT FREE.
It appears to me that the CEO of Dell is making an insincere attempt to
cover his butt after lying to Congress about why he doesn't sell
machines with other OSs besides Windows. The usual buyer won't buy 50
machines in a quarter.
I guess the reason why Dell doesn't offer Linux on a single machine
basis is that
the whole world would wonder why the price is not less even without the
cost of
a OS. Having Linux (which is free) should bring the price down over
machines with
Windows95/98. But in Dell's case it won't. Why? Such a situation
gives further indirect
evidence that Micro$oft is still charging manufacturers for each machine
sold, EVEN
if it does NOT have a M$ operating system (which is illegal - aka
'business as usual' for M$).
As you can see, I am posting this feedback on the internet usegroups.
Perhaps, maybe, you people at Dell will someday decide to do business in
an ethical manner.
Does anyone have an email address for the Department of Justice?
Darren
Mark
to the other's benefit. They give lip service to Linux and that is it. They
are like any huge business..they couldn't give a rat's ass about you after
they get your money, and to answer your question..yes, not unlike
politicians, bankers, and big corporations, they consider "Joe Public" --
anyone but themselves ) to be absolute idiots...and in most cases, judging
by sales figures...they are correct.
Jori Remington wrote in message <35F7BFC4...@bellsouth.net>...
Bill House
salesperson on the other end of the line. Heck, you might even manage to
get him reprimanded, if you write them a nice email. <g>
Jori Remington wrote in message <35F7BFC4...@bellsouth.net>...
>I just read that Dell is now offering the option of pre-loading Linux...
>
>All I want is a single machine with Linux... I do some weekend
>consulting work and may end up referring people to buy from Dell, but
>would not do the purchasing myself due to tax issues.
>
>Problem: When I call up the Home-office division, they DON'T offer
>Linux. The salesman who answered the phone did not know what Linux
>was. He asked me what it was and why I wanted it. I told him that what
>I wanted to do is have a machine set up so that I could do weekend
>development work for clients - things like word processing, internet
>connections, etc. - typical home & business use which is what my
>clientele wants. He told me that Windows has all that. I also told him
>that Linux is free. To which he replied, "Windows is free, too." NO IT
>ISN'T. I end up paying for it in the price of the machine. Besides
>that, Windows98 is full of glitches that are driving users batty:
>
>[snip]
>
>
>Darren
>
>
>
>
Bojan Zdravkovic
I have an experience to share about DELL customer support/salespeople.
Namely I was trying to purchase a computer from them, since "they will
build mine to do something" as their advertising campaign states. I can
write a 5000 word essay of what went on and how many times I was
listening to the HOLD jingle (my call was transferred 7 times) because I
wanted them to build me a dual-P2 233Mhz to use at home. Their first
answer was "sir the computer can hold only one motherboard at a time"
I politely told them that they are (relatively) correct, but that there
is a big difference between a motherboard and a CPU. They grasped the
concept with a little discussion, and transfered my call. Then through a
series of transfers I finally got through to an expert. The first
question that this expert asked was:
"Why you need a dual motherboard?"
I told him (although it was none of his business) that I wanted it to do
some graphics rendering and use it as a server that will be able to
withstand a WWW, mail, FTP, and telnet. And he went "uh-huh" with me
along the way and told me that I cannot do that with Win95. I told him
not to worry, I have the means to do it. I didn't even want to mention
UNIces to him, he was pretty defensive already. Not to mention his tone
of voice was "you think you know more than me, huh? huh?"
So he skipped that part and asked me "what I would like inside." I told
him specs for everything, the RAM, the hard drive, the CD rom, and so
on.
Then he told me to hold for a while. After a minute or so, he tells me
that would cost approx $8000 + tax.
I almost burst out laughing, because the same deal was $3000 from the
other clone manufacturers. I asked him if he was sure thats the price.
He was so convinced that the price was right, I gave up. I asked him to
fax me the estimate with the prices of the various components on them
and wished him a good day.
That fax never came in.
So, its not "incompetent salesperson" as Bill mentioned, its
"incompetent salespeople". I will never, ever have anything to do with
DELL again. Their sales and customer support staff is rude, and mine was
a very bad experience. So, yes, something is definitely wrong with DELL
if you go beyond the boundries of normal system requirements and ask for
something special. DELL must do something about it, if they care about
their customers, cause they already lost one here.
Hope that was amusing,
Bojan Zdravkovic
bzdr...@nt.com
bzdr...@nortel.ca
PS: Got a DELL story? Please share it with us.
Sean Bowers
Pentium II processor with MMX technology, 256MB of 100MHz SDRAM, and a 16GB
hard drive". I've been quite happy with it. It's a hell of a lot quicker than
my P100 (damn that kernel compiles fast)!
I noticed the strange hard drive sizes also, but it seems (at least with that
model) that Dell has a partition set aside that holds a funky compressed mirror
of the factory contents of the hard drive. Well, the hell with it. I did the
logical thing and fdisk'ed that puppy and put Linux on it. Of course I had to
have a wee tiny partition for Win98 since Linux doesn't yet support the playing
of DVD movies and my neural network simulator is Win95/NT only.
The only gripe I have so far is that DVD doesn't work, my Turtle Beach Montego
sound card doesn't have drivers (still trying to get the SB emulation working),
and I think my ATI Rage Pro II AGP 8MB video card isn't being worked to its
potential. But all in all things are peachy. The way I figure it, the
computer is thousands of dollars, Win98 is only $89-130. The amount isn't all
that disgusting so I ate that worm!
Cheers,
Sean
Eric Peterson
I, too, have a DELL story.
A couple of years ago I was looking for a new system. P133 was top of
the line back then, so I called DELL and asked for a quote. They promptly
replied, but I had a couple of questions regarding the specs on the
components. I e-mailed them with a request for the specs I wanted to see
(after all, it's hard to compare quotes without knowing the details). I
never heard back from them, even after I followed up with several phone
calls.
From what I have heard from other people, DELL is more than happy to send
you one of their "off the shelf" quotes and take your money, but if you
want anything beyond that, they can't be bothered. My opinion is that if
they can't be bothered to talk to me when I have money to spend, what will
they be like if I have a problem and need support? Pretty bad, I would
think.
Needless to say, I bought elsewhere.
Eric F. Peterson
Bojan Zdravkovic <.spam-da...@ngfc.com> wrote in article
<35F80F60...@ngfc.com>...
Sean Bowers
My experience is quite different. I just did an online configuration of a new
PII 400 from Dell (I have a post in this tread with details) and it allowed me
to modify hardware and such to my liking. So I knew of the specs as I "built"
the thing. But, I grant you: all of the online config setting assume you want
to run Win98 or NT and the hardware is "optimized" for these platforms.
However, the system I got was "approved" for NT and I didn't experience any
problems setting up Linux (except the DVD and sound card). I hope this means
that Dell wised (at least a little) up to the advanced demands of power users.
Don't sign their obituary just yet! :-) Sorry this isn't meant as a
commercial.
Cheers,
Sean
Craig Kelley
Bojan Zdravkovic <.spam-da...@ngfc.com> wrote:
->I will never, ever have anything to do with
->DELL again. Their sales and customer support staff is rude, and mine was
->a very bad experience. So, yes, something is definitely wrong with DELL
->if you go beyond the boundries of normal system requirements and ask for
->something special. DELL must do something about it, if they care about
->their customers, cause they already lost one here.
Just to provide some positive Dell support:
I am a Linux user and have found that the Dell Dimension line has
always worked out-of-the-box with Linux. They are well-built and
nicely equipped machines with plenty of room to grow (the tower
variety suites me most). Stay the hell away from the OptiPlex line,
because it is none of the above.
Nobody should expect the big-name vendors to be able to build machines
to exact specs, even if their advertisments calim otherwise. That is
why you have your trusted Joe PC-maker down the street, he is willing
to do these things for you at a nice price.
Whenever we have to buy contract machines (if I want to use local
people it has to go out to bid), I always stick with Dell Dimensions
and HP Vectras (series 6 and above). They always work with Linux and I
haven't had any problems with any of them.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kell...@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger i...@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
gippah
>
> I just read that Dell is now offering the option of pre-loading Linux...
>
> All I want is a single machine with Linux... I do some weekend
> consulting work and may end up referring people to buy from Dell, but
> would not do the purchasing myself due to tax issues.
>
> Problem: When I call up the Home-office division, they DON'T offer
> Linux. The salesman who answered the phone did not know what Linux
> was.
Actually, people at Dell are very much "in the know" about Linux. True,
they hesitated to put Linux on their home computers. Here's why.
Dell is growing at a phenomenal rate. 50% of the growth in the computer
industry is at Dell. Dell now the #1 computer manufacturer in the US,
#2 in the world.
But on top of all this, Dell offers *lifetime* tech support for every
computer it sells, for free. To accomodate the growth of the company,
this means that they are hiring somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 new
tech support people every month (of course a few leave the company too).
Since they are just barely able to keep ahead of the support demand just
for DOS/Windows/NT, it makes sense that they would be hesitant to have
to teach their entire work force Unix as well.
Now bear in mind that if you are a corporation they will put any OS on
there that you want, they always have and always will.
> It appears to me that the CEO of Dell is making an insincere attempt to
> cover his butt after lying to Congress about why he doesn't sell
> machines with other OSs besides Windows. The usual buyer won't buy 50
> machines in a quarter.
I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Dell custom-builds every
machine :after: the customer orders it, and other OS's other than
windows have certainly been shipped.
And in all fairness, the person you talked to in Dell sales wasn't the
CEO of Dell. Honestly the CEO of Dell would have given you what you
wanted if he had to do it himself.
> I guess the reason why Dell doesn't offer Linux on a single machine
> basis is that
> the whole world would wonder why the price is not less even without the
> cost of
> a OS. Having Linux (which is free) should bring the price down over
> machines with
> Windows95/98. But in Dell's case it won't. Why? Such a situation
> gives further indirect
> evidence that Micro$oft is still charging manufacturers for each machine
> sold, EVEN
> if it does NOT have a M$ operating system (which is illegal - aka
> 'business as usual' for M$).
>
> As you can see, I am posting this feedback on the internet usegroups.
> Perhaps, maybe, you people at Dell will someday decide to do business in
> an ethical manner.
Hm... You're upset about a salesman not knowing how to handle your
questions about Linux -- even though that was probably the first time
anyone had ever asked him about it. I'd hardly call this unethical.
Just buy a damn linux CD and put it on yourself.
gippah
> Then he told me to hold for a while. After a minute or so, he tells me
> that would cost approx $8000 + tax.
> I almost burst out laughing, because the same deal was $3000 from the
> other clone manufacturers. I asked him if he was sure thats the price.
> He was so convinced that the price was right, I gave up. I asked him to
> fax me the estimate with the prices of the various components on them
> and wished him a good day.
If you didn't figure out that Dell is expensive by looking at their web
site, you are a bit crazy. They never claim to be "cheap", it's *easy*
to find computers that are 25% cheaper (or more) than what they offer.
Dell is the company to go to if you want customer service and support
and a computer that's going to outlive you.
gippah
>
> Hi,
> I, too, have a DELL story.
>
> A couple of years ago I was looking for a new system. P133 was top of
> the line back then, so I called DELL and asked for a quote. They promptly
> replied, but I had a couple of questions regarding the specs on the
> components. I e-mailed them with a request for the specs I wanted to see
> (after all, it's hard to compare quotes without knowing the details). I
> never heard back from them, even after I followed up with several phone
> calls.
The full specs of every system they sell is available on the WWW.
> From what I have heard from other people, DELL is more than happy to send
> you one of their "off the shelf" quotes and take your money, but if you
> want anything beyond that, they can't be bothered.
They don't have any "off the shelf" quotes, because they don't have any
"off the shelf" computers. You order it, they make it.
> My opinion is that if
> they can't be bothered to talk to me when I have money to spend, what will
> they be like if I have a problem and need support? Pretty bad, I would
> think.
> Needless to say, I bought elsewhere.
Actually their support has been rated #1 by PC magazine for the past 3
or 4 years in a row.
Donovan Rebbechi
>
> Actually their support has been rated #1 by PC magazine for the past 3
> or 4 years in a row.
Yes, their support is pretty good. I'd recommend them to an NT or Win95
customer.
But their linux support is non existent.
Their systems are quite good, but not that cheap.
Someone wanting a PC for the purpose of running linux is probably better
off taking their money to somewhere that is both cheaper and more linux
friendly.
--
Donovan Rebbechi <elf...@pegasus.rutgers.edu>
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
Web designer for Independence -- Linux for the Masses
http://www.independence.seul.org/
Donovan Rebbechi
[ snip ]
Typical phone droid , huh ? I've had experiences with having the sales
people think I was nuts when I told them I had to reboot to get into
windows (-;
> I guess the reason why Dell doesn't offer Linux on a single machine
> basis is that
> the whole world would wonder why the price is not less even without the
> cost of
> a OS.
No, the reason is that they want to see the money before they start
preloading linux. They are not willing to bank on the existence of a
large market for pre installed linux on home machines. Why ? because the
market for preloaded linux systems is small (since most linux users
don't want it preloaded)
> evidence that Micro$oft is still charging manufacturers for each machine
> sold, EVEN
bullshit. This is unsubstantiated conspiracy theory mongering.
> Does anyone have an email address for the Department of Justice?
Nope. Here's the web addresses of some shops who'll preload linux though
...
http://www.oemcomputers.com (cheapest)
http://www.varesearch.com
http://www.asl.com
http://www.promox.com
http://www.swt.com
Bojan Zdravkovic
customers!
"Hello, my monitor just turned blue and there are
some...*click*...*dialtone*..."
I agree 100%! Maybe we need to write the DELL-System-Purchase-HOWTO and
include these 5 tactics:
1) Keep pressing 0's to get to a live customer representative and avoid
those "touchtone service loops."
2) Meditation techniques thru on-hold jingles.
3) Avoiding the mention of U*IX, use of alternate names that don't cause
panic and fear.
4) Blast course on operating fax machines for the CSR's.
5) A diversity awareness seminars for the DELL CSR's on how OS'es other
than Win95 do exist, and how they should be treated as equals and not
discriminated against.
Oh well, I have vay too much free time on my hands.
Cheers,
Bojan Zdravkovic
bzdr...@nt.com
bzdr...@nortel.ca
PS: How about that HOWTO???
root
Windows FREE, so why did I still want Linux.
Ohhh I don't know: better stability, more reliable dial-up to my ISP, a word
processor that doesn't keep giving my wife the "Word has performed an illegal
operation ->Close" messages.
And in reality, it shouldn't matter to the sales guy WHY I don't want
Windows. Dell promises to make the machine the way I want it, and as long as
the hardware is within their capability, that's all that should matter to
them. As Windows is NOT free and Linux is, I should at least see a
difference in single unit cost of at least $89. But when you are talking
about a $1600 price tag, that is 5%. And it adds up.
I wanted to try Dell cuz of the ratings in PC Magazine. I keep telling
myself that Ziff-Davis is not to be trusted, and here is one more case. I
have heard some good things about Dell, but as you can see from this thread,
I have heard some pretty disturbing things too. Based on talks with
colleagues & family & friends, the stories run about 2/3 anti-Dell.
gippah wrote:
> > I guess the reason why Dell doesn't offer Linux on a single machine
> > basis is that
> > the whole world would wonder why the price is not less even without the
> > cost of
> > a OS. Having Linux (which is free) should bring the price down over
> > machines with
> > Windows95/98. But in Dell's case it won't. Why? Such a situation
> > gives further indirect
> > evidence that Micro$oft is still charging manufacturers for each machine
> > sold, EVEN
Eric Peterson
>
> The full specs of every system they sell is available on the WWW.
>
Not true at the time I was speaking to them. I wanted detailed info on CD
access times, and other info regarding components. It simply wasn't on the
web when I looked for it. They wouldn't even tell me every brand and model
# for the components used.
> > From what I have heard from other people, DELL is more than happy to
send
> > you one of their "off the shelf" quotes and take your money, but if you
> > want anything beyond that, they can't be bothered.
>
> They don't have any "off the shelf" quotes, because they don't have any
> "off the shelf" computers. You order it, they make it.
>
True - sort of. By "off the shelf" I mean they have a list of components
you can mix and match from. You can say "I want a 12x CD-ROM" or "I want a
2.5gig Hard drive" but getting more specific as to brand names or
performance specs can throw them for a loop.
> > My opinion is that if
> > they can't be bothered to talk to me when I have money to spend, what
will
> > they be like if I have a problem and need support? Pretty bad, I would
> > think.
> > Needless to say, I bought elsewhere.
>
> Actually their support has been rated #1 by PC magazine for the past 3
> or 4 years in a row.
>
This is pretty meaningless if all PC support is of low quality, which has
been my experience.
Andrew
>customer.
>
>But their linux support is non existent.
Yup, this is likely due to the market share that Linux occupies currently.
Should companies support every home-built OS that crawls out from under a
rock? Of course not.
Linux is a good OS and its usage is growing. Something tells me that
support will come soon. Think about it, 5 years ago where was Linux? Where
is it now... Have patience.
Andrew
{hearing ghostly voice from Field of Dreams}
gippah
> Not true at the time I was speaking to them. I wanted detailed info on CD
> access times, and other info regarding components. It simply wasn't on the
> web when I looked for it. They wouldn't even tell me every brand and model
> # for the components used.
This doesn't seem believable. I've seen the Dell intranet and what
information the employees have available to them. Employees there are
to use any means at their disposal to find the specs on the systems and
its components, including going out on the internet to find them if
needed.
> True - sort of. By "off the shelf" I mean they have a list of components
> you can mix and match from. You can say "I want a 12x CD-ROM" or "I want a
> 2.5gig Hard drive" but getting more specific as to brand names or
> performance specs can throw them for a loop.
Again I'd dispute this. Then again, you seem to live in Canada, which
is a completely seperate division. What you are descibing is very
unlikely to happen in the U.S.
> This is pretty meaningless if all PC support is of low quality, which has
> been my experience.
Again, if you're Canadian, that very well might be true. Not true in
the U.S.
Arnab Das
i bought a dell recently as well. true, it took the salesperson a while to
realize
what linux is. but, in my opinion, it is unfair to criticize them for it. if
they knew
everything, they surely would be doing something else. if i wanted to make
home PCs, i would also have salesreps who could handle the average joe who
phones in to buy a home PC. dell probably does have people who know/install
linux (they may be in the business-sales section??), but you just got the
wrong
guy. i dont think any of us know everything about anything and it is indeed
harsh
to expect so from others.
my 2c,
arnab.
Eric Peterson
>
> > Not true at the time I was speaking to them. I wanted detailed info on
CD
> > access times, and other info regarding components. It simply wasn't on
the
> > web when I looked for it. They wouldn't even tell me every brand and
model
> > # for the components used.
>
> This doesn't seem believable. I've seen the Dell intranet and what
> information the employees have available to them. Employees there are
> to use any means at their disposal to find the specs on the systems and
> its components, including going out on the internet to find them if
> needed.
>
That may be true now, or in the USA, or both. As I said in my first post,
this was several years ago when P133 was the best chip out there. Not even
MMX.
> > True - sort of. By "off the shelf" I mean they have a list of
components
> > you can mix and match from. You can say "I want a 12x CD-ROM" or "I
want a
> > 2.5gig Hard drive" but getting more specific as to brand names or
> > performance specs can throw them for a loop.
>
> Again I'd dispute this. Then again, you seem to live in Canada, which
> is a completely seperate division. What you are descibing is very
> unlikely to happen in the U.S.
>
Again, things change over time. However, judging by other posts in this
thread, they may not have changed all that much. My experience with
computer vendors in general is that as long as you want a more or less
"standard" system, you have few or no problems. As soon as you ask for the
unusual (which may include more detail on the components), things go
haywire.
> > This is pretty meaningless if all PC support is of low quality, which
has
> > been my experience.
>
> Again, if you're Canadian, that very well might be true. Not true in
> the U.S.
>
I would dispute that claim. I have had extreme difficulty in even reaching
tech support for many US companies. Problems such as:
1) Long hold times, but no toll-free number, so I end up paying for
waiting.
2) Automated e-mail reply systems that don't work, so e-mail never reaches
a human who can help.
3) On the rare occasions when the automated e-mail reply system functions,
it just sends out copies of the faqs which I have already checked out on
the company's web site. Follow-ups using the instructions to reach a human
in tech support rarely work.
When I finally get hold of someone in tech support, they can help me only
about 50% of the time. The other 50% I am told that my hardware/software
is unsupported, or that my other system hardware must be at fault (even
after I have done everything tech support asked me to do to verify that my
system is working properly!)
Sorry, but all these experiences have been with company offices in the USA.
Donovan Rebbechi
> Should companies support every home-built OS that crawls out from under a
> rock? Of course not.
Should users support companies that aren't prepared to give them
hardware that will work with their OS of choice ? Of course not.
Andrew
>> rock? Of course not.
>
>Should users support companies that aren't prepared to give them
>hardware that will work with their OS of choice ? Of course not.
Agreed, but what you do to yourself if you are one of the few people running
an obscure OS is ensure:
a) you have no computer.
b) you re-evaluate your choice of OS.
c) you build or modify your own hardware.
d) you take your chances with an unsupported product.
e) wait until more people use the OS and then companies support it.
f) find some company willing to support it.
At any rate, Linux is past this point so no worries.
Andrew
Marc Reichman
>
> Andrew wrote:
>
> > Should companies support every home-built OS that crawls out from under a
> > rock? Of course not.
>
> Should users support companies that aren't prepared to give them
> hardware that will work with their OS of choice ? Of course not.
>
who ever mentioned anything about non-linux-loving hardware? my dell
system functions flawlessly under linux (all peripherals). we're
talking about pre-packaged and installed systems here.
-marc
Donovan Rebbechi
>
> who ever mentioned anything about non-linux-loving hardware? my dell
> system functions flawlessly under linux (all peripherals).
good for you. But if they didn't , would you be able to do anything
about it ? Do Dell offer you any re-assurance that their stuff will work
with linux ?
cheers,
Bojan Zdravkovic
I had bad experiences with US companies as well, one time I got
transfered to this NEC "special" division in the US because my CD-ROM
was behaving in a weird manner. I went through hell trying to get to a
live person, and when I finally got there they told me I need to change
the CDROM or otherwise it won't work with Linux.
The only people I have had good experience with was Compaq. Back in
1994, I phoned them about how to configure my CDROM in Linux. They said
they did not support it, but my call got transfered to someone who knew
how to do that and he helped me. So yes, it CAN be done as long as the
CSR's are willing to help a person.
Another example was when I called Interlog (a local ISP) to ask a
question about connecting to their servers with Linux. They told me they
don't support it, but the person tried everything to help me out, even
asked around the room if someone knew how to configure PPP on Linux.
Despite that I ended figuring it out myself, those guys were willing to
help.
So without labeling Canadian or US customer support I would say that the
DELL customer support people cannot (or don't want to) help a person in
need, especially if he asks something out of the ordinary.
Thats my share,
Bojan Zdravkovic
bzdr...@nt.com
bzdr...@nortel.ca
gippah
>
> Marc Reichman wrote:
> >
> > who ever mentioned anything about non-linux-loving hardware? my dell
> > system functions flawlessly under linux (all peripherals).
>
> good for you. But if they didn't , would you be able to do anything
> about it ? Do Dell offer you any re-assurance that their stuff will work
> with linux ?
I dunno. Why don't you call and ask first instead of spewing weird b.s.
on the newsgroups.
Donovan Rebbechi
>
> > good for you. But if they didn't , would you be able to do anything
> > about it ? Do Dell offer you any re-assurance that their stuff will work
> > with linux ?
>
> I dunno. Why don't you call and ask first instead of spewing weird b.s.
> on the newsgroups.
It's a rhetorical question. Hint: they don't.
They offer two OSs. Win95 and NT. People interested in linux have to
check on their own.
gippah
>
> gippah wrote:
> >
> > > good for you. But if they didn't , would you be able to do anything
> > > about it ? Do Dell offer you any re-assurance that their stuff will work
> > > with linux ?
> >
> > I dunno. Why don't you call and ask first instead of spewing weird b.s.
> > on the newsgroups.
>
> It's a rhetorical question. Hint: they don't.
>
> They offer two OSs. Win95 and NT. People interested in linux have to
> check on their own.
Actually no. They do not offer Win95 (try 98), and they offer DOS.
I'd like to hear any stories of any PC's out there that can't run Linux,
though. I never even considered calling and asking a manufacturer if I
could run Linux on it, because the answer there is of course I can.
But hey, if to prove your point you have to turn the conversation into
something ridiculous, then go ahead.....
Donovan Rebbechi
>
> I'd like to hear any stories of any PC's out there that can't run Linux,
> though.
Usually, the video cards are the biggest problem, closely followed by
the modems. This isn't a huge set back, but it'll still cost you if you
want to replace the video/modem. Of course, these issues don't outright
prevent you from running linux, but they make it a somewhat less
pleasent experience.
gippah
>
> gippah wrote:
> >
> > I'd like to hear any stories of any PC's out there that can't run Linux,
> > though.
>
> Usually, the video cards are the biggest problem, closely followed by
> the modems. This isn't a huge set back, but it'll still cost you if you
> want to replace the video/modem. Of course, these issues don't outright
> prevent you from running linux, but they make it a somewhat less
> pleasent experience.
Dell is able and perfectly willing to give information regarding what
video cards and what modems are in their systems.
Steven W. Mentzer
I am a senior programmer/analyst for a large consulting firm on downtown LA,
and we are COMPLETELY 100% DELL.
What you just experienced is a severe limitation of a company who's home
services are directed at the low-mid intellegence user.
The quote you asked for was indeed "in the ballpark". I would need to see a
complete spec sheet, and it is highly likely that the quote that was provided
was reasonable.
What you were propably quoted was the following:
Dell PowerEdge 2200 (Dual PII 233Mhz processor)
256MB RAM
Dual Seagate Cheetah 9.1GB Hard Disks
Backoffice 2.5 Suite
Adaptec 2940UW2/2 SCSI controller
3 Year warrantee
Intel Powerdesk/LanDesk software
Next Day On Site Service
shall I go on?
What you were trying to build goes WAY beyond the normal "Everyday Joe" user
who calls customer service. Next time call corporate sales, and you might get a
better response.
The moral of this story: Dont go to a gas station and expect the attendant to
recite shakespeare. And dont think he is a complete idiot when he cant. Go to a
library.
gippah
Very true. Also note that the tech support people are supposed to
answer these types of questions as well, so you could try there too for
more in-depth questions.
Phil Hunt
elf...@pegasus.rutgers.edu "Donovan Rebbechi" writes:
> gippah wrote:
> > I'd like to hear any stories of any PC's out there that can't run Linux,
> > though.
>
> Usually, the video cards are the biggest problem, closely followed by
> the modems.
Modems are not a problem if you have an external one. If you have
a WinModem, you will not be able to use it with Linux. WinModems
are a bad idea: you shouldn't use one with windows if you can afford
to upgrade to a proper modem. The reason is that a WinModem is made
cheap by removing most of the modem circuitry and letting the
computer's processor do all the work. This means that when you surf
the web with a winmodem, everything will run slooooooooooooooowly.
--
Phil Hunt
"Dreaming something won't make it happen,
but not dreaming something will make it not happen"
Thandor
>Modems are not a problem if you have an external one. If you have
>a WinModem, you will not be able to use it with Linux. WinModems
>are a bad idea: you shouldn't use one with windows if you can afford
>to upgrade to a proper modem. The reason is that a WinModem is made
>cheap by removing most of the modem circuitry and letting the
>computer's processor do all the work. This means that when you surf
>the web with a winmodem, everything will run slooooooooooooooowly.
This is true, but I get the feeling this is more a demonstration of how
poor the OS is rather than the winmodem being the root of all evil.
Winmodems have been around for several years, so clearly they shouldn't be
sucking the life out of today's processors if the could run on the
technology back then. Also, the chips that are actually in a modem are
nothing compared to the power of a cpu...
I think the main problem with winmodem performance is the fact that windows
(especially 3.1/9x which the winmodems are designed to run under) can't
handle multitasking in any fasion that is worth speaking of. Just like the
system slows to a crawl when formatting a disk (And an XT or 286 can format
a disk, so there's no reason a pentium should be crippled by the job if the
OS knows how to multi-task).
--
- Thandor, of Donuts Inc:
Through emulation of Homer Simpson we shall attain perfection.
Linux: Everybody's talking about the GNU kid in town. :)
The Appleman
My Dell Experience by Henry
Well around March '98 I decided that I needed a faster computer and so I
did some research. Of course I heard good things about Dell like
everyone else did and I didn't like the Gateway machines I played with
before. I went to their online store and configured the computer that I
wanted. Then I clicked on a button to have email sent with more
detailed specs on the machine. At least that's what the button said.
So I receive a automated response that I've been assigned to blah blah
salesrep. Then I receive a message with the "Configuration Details".
Funny, it was an order form listing the components I chose asking for
my credit card and stuff. In addition it was UUENCODED so I had to
check out a website and download the program to UUDECODE it (I was using
a Lotus Notes mail client which doesn't automatically convert UUENCODEd
files). It was pretty annoying. So I mail my salesrep asking for
detailed specs such as HD access speed, # of RAM slots, # of ISA/PCI
slots, Monitor specs, etc, etc. Well this goes on for about 3 emails
with no response. So I went on the website and sent feedback
complaining about my inresponsive salesrep (I tried calling and got her
mailbox). Well my feedback accomplished absolutely nothing -- I
received another automatic response telling me that my salesrep was
someone else. So now I had TWO salesrep who were unresponsive. It felt
like I was spamming these salesreps with the amount of emails I sent (of
course it was over a longer period of time) but I was basically saying
the same thing and getting no response. Eventually I sent another
feedback venting my frustration and someone got back to me saying how
sorry they were (in email) and to ask him any questions. He answered
them fine, but the whole incident was annoying as hell. I guess the
sales reps can only do one thing 'make sales' because from my experience
these people are dumb as rocks. If this is the customer support I get
before I make the purchase, I could only imagine it after they had my
money. Needless to say I ended up building my own machine which was
cheaper and had better components that matched my picky specifications.
Sorry, Dell might be #1 in PC satisfaction but if you get calls from
people asking "How do I change my Display Properties in Windows?" it's
not that hard to give them answers. Try asking something just a little
bit more indepth and you can expect to find many morons at the tech help
desk. It's all relative.
Anyway, Dell can be lumped in with all the other corporate computer
makers. They care only for the big sales with major corporations. If
you're a small time home fry, better look else where for help -- better
yet force yourself to be your own tech.
Henry
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please reply to sko...@primenet.com
by removing NOSPAM from the address!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thandor
>Anyway, Dell can be lumped in with all the other corporate computer
>makers. They care only for the big sales with major corporations. If
>you're a small time home fry, better look else where for help -- better
>yet force yourself to be your own tech.
My perspective is that if anyone is stupid enough to pay the premium for
their machine just so it will say dell, or gateway, or compaq or whatever,
they deserve whatever they get. You can always get a better deal elsewhere,
even if you don't want to have to put the parts together for yourself, than
by buying one of these "name" brands.
But of course, there'll always be some people who think paying hundreds of
dollars just for a Compaq logo on your computer is good value. Heck, they
think Microshaft is good value in software, so why should they have any
more sense with hardware?
Tim Smith
>My perspective is that if anyone is stupid enough to pay the premium for
>their machine just so it will say dell, or gateway, or compaq or whatever,
>they deserve whatever they get. You can always get a better deal elsewhere,
The Gateway we bought for me at work a couple of months ago was less
expensive than any comparable quality machine I was able to price at
local shops, both pre-built, built-to-order, and "buy all the parts
myself and put it together". (And Linux works fine on it).
--Tim Smith
Bojan Zdravkovic
I don't expect a gas station worker to recite Shakespeare, but I do
expect him to know what a book is.
I have never, ever mentioned the word "idiot", nor hinted to it. That
was your add-on. The focus of my comments was not on CS knowledge of
hardware or operating systems, but more of their inability to direct a
call to the appropriate person.
Best regards,
Bojan Zdravkovic
bzdr...@nt.com
bzdr...@nortel.ca
Phil Hunt
homer_j...@my-dejanews.com "Thandor" writes:
> Phil Hunt <ph...@vision25.demon.co.uk> spake thusly:
> >Modems are not a problem if you have an external one. If you have
> >a WinModem, you will not be able to use it with Linux. WinModems
> >are a bad idea: you shouldn't use one with windows if you can afford
> >to upgrade to a proper modem. The reason is that a WinModem is made
> >cheap by removing most of the modem circuitry and letting the
> >computer's processor do all the work. This means that when you surf
> >the web with a winmodem, everything will run slooooooooooooooowly.
>
> This is true, but I get the feeling this is more a demonstration of how
> poor the OS is rather than the winmodem being the root of all evil.
> Winmodems have been around for several years, so clearly they shouldn't be
> sucking the life out of today's processors if the could run on the
> technology back then. Also, the chips that are actually in a modem are
> nothing compared to the power of a cpu...
>
> I think the main problem with winmodem performance is the fact that windows
> (especially 3.1/9x which the winmodems are designed to run under) can't
> handle multitasking in any fasion that is worth speaking of.
This is true, particularly with 3.1. The multitasking got better
with 95.
Guy Yasko
>> Again, if you're Canadian, that very well might be true. Not true
>> in the U.S.
>>
EP> I would dispute that claim. I have had extreme difficulty in even
EP> reaching tech support for many US companies. Problems such as:
EP> Sorry, but all these experiences have been with company offices in
EP> the USA.
in general, i'd agree that computer service/support is universally
terrible, but i've had very good support from ibm canada. some of the
support people even run linux.
g.y.
--
Guy Yasko -- gya...@po-box.zzzik.mcgill.ca [remove noise]
Gibble, Gobble, we ACCEPT YOU ...
psyc...@my-dejanews.com
How many shops did you check? And are you sure the specs were exactly the
same and by that I dont only mean the processor speed and the amount of ram.
I mean type and manufacturer of matherboard type of RAM and the transfer rate
and speed of the hd and all of the other parts of the system. From the
research I did when I bought mine computers from big companies like Dell and
Gateway might seem like cheaper than systems from local smaller stores but
many times they use tricks to keep the costs down like use cheap motherboards
or even winmodems and they can get away with it since most people think that
haw fast the system is is determined only by the processor the memory and the
size of the hd. Like most of you already know I have found that building your
own system is probably the cheapest way to get a computer. -- NEVER
concentrate too hard on finding an answer. Eventually like any other stroke
of genius a valid answer will find its way into your brain.
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Isaac-Lew
>
> Good, so I am not alone.
>
> I have an experience to share about DELL customer support/salespeople.
>
> Namely I was trying to purchase a computer from them, since "they will
> build mine to do something" as their advertising campaign states. I can
> write a 5000 word essay of what went on and how many times I was
> listening to the HOLD jingle (my call was transferred 7 times) because I
> wanted them to build me a dual-P2 233Mhz to use at home. Their first
> answer was "sir the computer can hold only one motherboard at a time"
> I politely told them that they are (relatively) correct, but that there
> is a big difference between a motherboard and a CPU. They grasped the
> concept with a little discussion, and transfered my call. Then through a
> series of transfers I finally got through to an expert. The first
> question that this expert asked was:
> "Why you need a dual motherboard?"
You'd think that if you're spending $$ on a computer, you should have
the ability to get whatever you want.
> I told him (although it was none of his business) that I wanted it to do
> some graphics rendering and use it as a server that will be able to
> withstand a WWW, mail, FTP, and telnet. And he went "uh-huh" with me
> along the way and told me that I cannot do that with Win95. I told him
> not to worry, I have the means to do it. I didn't even want to mention
> UNIces to him, he was pretty defensive already. Not to mention his tone
> of voice was "you think you know more than me, huh? huh?"
>
Bwahahahaha!
I'd have said I was using it for World Dominition (true, if you were
putting a flavor of Linux on it).
> So he skipped that part and asked me "what I would like inside." I told
> him specs for everything, the RAM, the hard drive, the CD rom, and so
> on.
>
> Then he told me to hold for a while. After a minute or so, he tells me
> that would cost approx $8000 + tax.
> I almost burst out laughing, because the same deal was $3000 from the
> other clone manufacturers. I asked him if he was sure thats the price.
> He was so convinced that the price was right, I gave up. I asked him to
> fax me the estimate with the prices of the various components on them
> and wished him a good day.
Did you call VA Research and/or Penguin Computing? If so, how were
their salespeople?
>
> That fax never came in.
>
> So, its not "incompetent salesperson" as Bill mentioned, its
> "incompetent salespeople". I will never, ever have anything to do with
> DELL again. Their sales and customer support staff is rude, and mine was
> a very bad experience. So, yes, something is definitely wrong with DELL
> if you go beyond the boundries of normal system requirements and ask for
> something special. DELL must do something about it, if they care about
> their customers, cause they already lost one here.
>
For a home workstation, it's probably best to build it yourself (if you
have the time and patience, & you have reliable components).
> Hope that was amusing,
>
> Bojan Zdravkovic
> bzdr...@nt.com
> bzdr...@nortel.ca
>
> PS: Got a DELL story? Please share it with us.
No, but if you're in the DC area, I know a shop that you may want to
avoid (can't name names, but they're located in Sterling, VA). They're
NT (or, at least claim to be).
--
Isaac-Lew
real email: ise at hotmail dot com
DJSystem
>
> I don't expect a gas station worker to recite Shakespeare, but I do
> expect him to know what a book is.
You don't drive a car do you *grin*
DJSystem
was slow as hell. My 166 ran circles around it. Low budget video, low
budget harddisk, slowass Intel mainboard, the only good thing was the P-II 300,
which was severely choked by the rest of the system. In other words, Gateway
sucks.
Michael George
>You gotta be kidding me. I had a Gateway 300 Mhz here about 4 weeks ago,and it
>was slow as hell. My 166 ran circles around it. Low budget video, low
>budget harddisk, slowass Intel mainboard, the only good thing was the P-II 300,
>which was severely choked by the rest of the system. In other words, Gateway
>sucks.
Hmm, I have here a standard GW2k P5-100, and it works fine. Everything works
(except the sound, but I haven't really tried too hard on that) just fine and
the machine is pretty quick. I don't know what might have changed from this
model to the 300MHz you got.
I've run Linux on a 486-66, P5-60, P5-100, and I've installed it and run it a
bit on the local high school's P5-166. All were pretty straightforward.
Having said that, I will still probably get my next machine from a Linux
assembler because I want *everything* to work, I don't really want to
patronize M$ suck-ups, and I think they deserve the business. Even if it
costs more...
-Michael
--
To reply to me, remove the "nospam" from the return address.
--
No, my friend, the way to have good and safe government, is not to trust it
all to one, but to divide it among the many, distributing to every one exactly
the functions he is competent to. It is by dividing and subdividing these
republics from the national one down through all its subordinations, until it
ends in the administration of every man's farm by himself; by placing under
every one what his own eye may superintend, that all will be done for the
best.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Joseph Cabell, 1816
Bojan Zdravkovic
Alexander Samad
but corporate sales are good. Again were I work, we are 100% dell apart from the
servers (old decision) and I have had no problems with them with Win95, WinNT &
Linux. Again we are satisfied with the out the box config. We have Optiplex &
Latitude & Workstation 400's 410's
Different courses for different horses. Dell fits our bill, but if is I was
building my whizz bang home PC then I would build it from components.
AlexS
Steven W. Mentzer wrote:
> I am a senior programmer/analyst for a large consulting firm on downtown LA,
> and we are COMPLETELY 100% DELL.
>
> What you just experienced is a severe limitation of a company who's home
> services are directed at the low-mid intellegence user.
>
> The quote you asked for was indeed "in the ballpark". I would need to see a
> complete spec sheet, and it is highly likely that the quote that was provided
> was reasonable.
>
> What you were propably quoted was the following:
>
> Dell PowerEdge 2200 (Dual PII 233Mhz processor)
> 256MB RAM
> Dual Seagate Cheetah 9.1GB Hard Disks
> Backoffice 2.5 Suite
> Adaptec 2940UW2/2 SCSI controller
> 3 Year warrantee
> Intel Powerdesk/LanDesk software
> Next Day On Site Service
>
> shall I go on?
>
> What you were trying to build goes WAY beyond the normal "Everyday Joe" user
> who calls customer service. Next time call corporate sales, and you might get a
> better response.
>
> The moral of this story: Dont go to a gas station and expect the attendant to
> recite shakespeare. And dont think he is a complete idiot when he cant. Go to a
> library.
>
Paul Somm
make so much more than NT or Netware admins? You think a company is going
to pay double to triple for phone support techs just to support an OS that
has less than a tenth of the installed base market share?
On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
> gippah wrote:
> >
> > Actually their support has been rated #1 by PC magazine for the past 3
> > or 4 years in a row.
>
> Yes, their support is pretty good. I'd recommend them to an NT or Win95
> customer.
>
> But their linux support is non existent.
>
> Their systems are quite good, but not that cheap.
>
> Someone wanting a PC for the purpose of running linux is probably better
> off taking their money to somewhere that is both cheaper and more linux
> friendly.
>
> --
> Donovan Rebbechi <elf...@pegasus.rutgers.edu>
> http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/
> Web designer for Independence -- Linux for the Masses
> http://www.independence.seul.org/
>
>
===========================================
paul...@panix.com | kiwi.elleu.net
^ ^ ------------------------------------
O O Your mouse cursor has moved.
| ? NT must be restarted for this change
o to take effect. Restart now? [ OK ]
Paul Somm
On 11 Sep 1998, Eric Peterson wrote:
>
> >
> > The full specs of every system they sell is available on the WWW.
> >
>
> Not true at the time I was speaking to them. I wanted detailed info on CD
> access times, and other info regarding components. It simply wasn't on the
> web when I looked for it. They wouldn't even tell me every brand and model
> # for the components used.
>
> > > From what I have heard from other people, DELL is more than happy to
> send
> > > you one of their "off the shelf" quotes and take your money, but if you
> > > want anything beyond that, they can't be bothered.
> >
> > They don't have any "off the shelf" quotes, because they don't have any
> > "off the shelf" computers. You order it, they make it.
> >
>
> True - sort of. By "off the shelf" I mean they have a list of components
> you can mix and match from. You can say "I want a 12x CD-ROM" or "I want a
> 2.5gig Hard drive" but getting more specific as to brand names or
> performance specs can throw them for a loop.
>
> > > My opinion is that if
> > > they can't be bothered to talk to me when I have money to spend, what
> will
> > > they be like if I have a problem and need support? Pretty bad, I would
> > > think.
> > > Needless to say, I bought elsewhere.
> >
> > Actually their support has been rated #1 by PC magazine for the past 3
> > or 4 years in a row.
> >
>
> This is pretty meaningless if all PC support is of low quality, which has
> been my experience.
Craig Kelley
Paul Somm <paul...@panix.com> wrote:
->Keep in mind, Unix support is EXPENSIVE. Why do you think Unix Admins
->make so much more than NT or Netware admins? You think a company is going
->to pay double to triple for phone support techs just to support an OS that
->has less than a tenth of the installed base market share?
Because if the UNIX box goes down, everything falls apart.
If the Windows box goes down, who cares? Reboot and Re-install.
--
The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead.
Craig Kelley -- kell...@isu.edu
http://www.isu.edu/~kellcrai finger i...@inconnu.isu.edu for PGP block
Keith Peterson
Donovan Rebbechi wrote in message <35F97EDC...@pegasus.rutgers.edu>...
>Marc Reichman wrote:
>>
>> who ever mentioned anything about non-linux-loving hardware? my dell
>> system functions flawlessly under linux (all peripherals).
>
Alas, depends on the age of your system. I just purchased a new one, and I
have yet to find a Linux driver for the Turtle Beach Montego A3D card that
shipped with it... And SUSE 5.3 lists the 3C905-TX that came with it as
supported, but problematic.
gippah
> The problem is that UNIX support is *perceived* as being substantially
> more expensive than support for Windows NT or Netware.
Not really. What's perceived as being expensive is training a 2,000
member workforce how to troubleshoot Unix in a few days and expecting
any quality to come out of it.
BMT
Jori Remington wrote in message <35F7BFC4...@bellsouth.net>...
>I just read that Dell is now offering the option of pre-loading Linux...
On servers.
<snip>
>
>It appears to me that the CEO of Dell is making an insincere attempt to
>cover his butt after lying to Congress about why he doesn't sell
>machines with other OSs besides Windows. The usual buyer won't buy 50
>machines in a quarter.
Again, it's servers. Not the "usual buyer". If you bought one PC, I assume
if you want Linux on the machine that's custom built, you'd pay extra to
have them do it.
Why don't you just put it on yourself?
jedi
No real OS should require such a thing. If that 2000 member
figure is anything other than a really large MIS staff,
your 'cheap OS' is costing you immeasurably more than any
more difficult but more reliable system.
--
Hardly. Microsoft has brought the microcomputer OS to
the point where it is more bloated than even OSes from |||
what was previously larger classes of machines altogether. / | \
This is perhaps Bill's single greatest accomplishment.
In search of sane PPP docs? Try http://penguin.lvcm.com
Tracy R Reed
>shipped with it... And SUSE 5.3 lists the 3C905-TX that came with it as
>supported, but problematic.
For the record, I have been using a 3c905-TX card for the last 9
months or so with no problems and excellent performance.
--
Tracy Reed http://www.ultraviolet.org
http://www.linux.org - Escape the Gates of Hell
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough [to break modern encryption]
would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers."
-- Bill Gates from "The Road Ahead," p. 265.
Christopher Browne
>On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
>> gippah wrote:
>> >
>> > or 4 years in a row.
>>
>> customer.
>>
>> But their linux support is non existent.
>>
>> Their systems are quite good, but not that cheap.
>>
>> Someone wanting a PC for the purpose of running linux is probably better
>> off taking their money to somewhere that is both cheaper and more linux
>> friendly.
>
The problem is that UNIX support is *perceived* as being substantially
more expensive than support for Windows NT or Netware.
This generally occurs because the applications deployed on UNIX have a
greater deal of complexity than those deployed on NT/Netware.
NT/Netware are reasonable solutions to the problem: "I need to have a
server where shared files can reside." That's a simple problem that's
simple to support.
But if you need an "application" server, you'll find that getting
NT/Netware to support this will require a level of support that's about
as expensive as the cost of UNIX support, with the difference that (at
least with NT) you're liable to have those "cheaper techs" coming in
more often at night to reboot systems.
--
"I once went to a shrink. He told me to speak freely. I did. The damn
fool tried to charge me $90 an hour." -- ji...@qis.net (Jim Moore Jr)
cbbr...@ntlug.org- <http//www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
Zach and Ravanell Cummings
>On Sat, 12 Sep 1998 14:39:11 -0500, gippah <gip...@spyvspy.com> wrote:
>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>>
>> gippah wrote:
>> >
>> > > good for you. But if they didn't , would you be able to do anything
>> > > about it ? Do Dell offer you any re-assurance that their stuff will work
>> > > with linux ?
>> >
>> > I dunno. Why don't you call and ask first instead of spewing weird b.s.
>> > on the newsgroups.
>>
>> It's a rhetorical question. Hint: they don't.
>>
>> They offer two OSs. Win95 and NT. People interested in linux have to
>> check on their own.
>
>Actually no. They do not offer Win95 (try 98), and they offer DOS.
>
>I'd like to hear any stories of any PC's out there that can't run Linux,
>though. I never even considered calling and asking a manufacturer if I
>could run Linux on it, because the answer there is of course I can.
>
>But hey, if to prove your point you have to turn the conversation into
>something ridiculous, then go ahead.....
Unless you're a large company willing to spend $millions on computers,
you only have two operating systems on desktop pc's from
Dell-- Win98 or Windows NT. You can't get straight Dos or Win95 from
them.
Z
gippah
>
> On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:47:47 -0500, gippah <gip...@spyvspy.com> wrote:
> >Christopher Browne wrote:
> >
> >> more expensive than support for Windows NT or Netware.
> >
> >member workforce how to troubleshoot Unix in a few days and expecting
> >any quality to come out of it.
>
> No real OS should require such a thing. If that 2000 member
> figure is anything other than a really large MIS staff,
> your 'cheap OS' is costing you immeasurably more than any
> more difficult but more reliable system.
You're forgetting something about tech support. Most of the calls are
related to problems with the user messing something up or not
understanding something. Now be honest--how many consumers understand
unix?
jedi
...about as many as really understand windows...
That's the real catch. The ease in Windows is really
quite superficial. Scratch below the surface and you'll
be using up quite a bit of 'ye ole free techsupport'.
Besides which, the tech support people can administer the
machines themselves if that's really an issue. Just have
the machines preconfigured to call Dell's PPP server.
Christopher B. Browne
>jedi wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:47:47 -0500, gippah <gip...@spyvspy.com> wrote:
>> >Christopher Browne wrote:
>> >
>> >> The problem is that UNIX support is *perceived* as being substantially
>> >> more expensive than support for Windows NT or Netware.
>> >
>> >Not really. What's perceived as being expensive is training a 2,000
>> >member workforce how to troubleshoot Unix in a few days and expecting
>> >any quality to come out of it.
>>
>> No real OS should require such a thing. If that 2000 member
>> figure is anything other than a really large MIS staff,
>> your 'cheap OS' is costing you immeasurably more than any
>> more difficult but more reliable system.
>
>You're forgetting something about tech support. Most of the calls are
>related to problems with the user messing something up or not
>understanding something. Now be honest--how many consumers understand
>unix?
Have you ever done technical support with "consumers" relating to
MS Windows?
They don't understand Windows, and commonly mess up due to not
understanding it.
If UNIX isn't supportable due to a lack of user understanding, Windows has
an equal set of problems to which you can add the further issues that:
- There isn't a population of people out there that have been involved
with implementing Windows-like systems that therefore have a good
understanding of the overall architecture.
There is a generation of CS people that have built UNIX-like systems,
and with the goodly hundred UNIX implementations that have come and
gone over the last 20 years, UNIX is certainly a well-understood system.
Windows? We know it GPF's regularly, because it's not real robust.
Further details are largely restricted to Microsoft staff...
- Windows, by its inextricable intertwining of OS, APIs, and GUI, makes
it real difficult to do remote connections that could allow a skilled
person to usefully diagnose problems.
UNIX offers various "hooks" to allow remote access that is a *really
useful thing.*
If you have to pick up and create some support infrastructure from
scratch, it is surely a tough task that may well be infeasible to do
all at once. But suggesting that Windows somehow is fundamentally
more readily supported than UNIX is simply ludicrous.
--
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
-- Henry Spencer <http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/lsf.html>
cbbr...@hex.net - "What have you contributed to Linux today?..."
Mike A. Schwab
Jori Remington wrote:
>
> I just read that Dell is now offering the option of pre-loading Linux...
>
> (snip)
> Having Linux (which is free) should bring the price down over
> machines with
> Windows95/98. But in Dell's case it won't. Why? Such a situation
> gives further indirect
> evidence that Micro$oft is still charging manufacturers for each machine
> sold, EVEN
> if it does NOT have a M$ operating system (which is illegal - aka
> 'business as usual' for M$).
>
> As you can see, I am posting this feedback on the internet usegroups.
> Perhaps, maybe, you people at Dell will someday decide to do business in
>
> an ethical manner.
>
> Does anyone have an email address for the Department of Justice?
>
> Darren
--
Mike A. Schwab. Remove periods from: M.A.S...@WamUsa.com.