Questions about 11.2 and KDE4
jamesromeongmail.com
pager?
And how do I turn OFF desktop switching with the mouse?
2) Is there a way to turn off transparency in Folder View?
3) Video setup using sax2 seems to have disappeared off of Yast2. What
has replaced it?
4) Inside of Yast2, lots of the help files seem to be missing. How do
I install them?
5) I get lots of X11 errors like:
Xlib: extension "Generic Event Extension" missing on display ":
1000.0".
How do I fix this?
Thanks,
Jim
Paul J Gans
I dunno. But I'm sure there is a way somehow.
What I object very strongly to is the Microsoftization of openSUSE.
Windows is a reasonable OS for folks who want to have everything
set up for them and are willing to live with the result.
Most of us use linux because we want to set things up our way.
11.2 seems to make it very hard to do anything your own way.
I have no idea why this was done. I may be alone, but I don't
run linux to look at the eye candy on the screen. I run it to
get work done. KDE4 seems to do things in a different way
simply to be different, not because it is more useful.
Yes, I've tried 11.2 via the live CD. I'm staying with 11.1 for
another year, by which time it should be nearing end of life.
At that point the then current openSUSE will be useful or I'll
be looking for another distro. I started with SLS and have been
through Slackware and Red Hat (and Ubuntu for laptops) and am
not afraid to move on.
--
--- Paul J. Gans
Baron
Hi Paul,
I can sympathise with you and agree KDE4 is just not intuitive !
I'm sticking with KDE3.5 until it dies.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
Paul J Gans
Thanks.
I don't want anyone to think that I object to pretty or cute. They
are fine. But not at the expense of functionality.
I'm at a KDE 3.5 Konsole window right now. I've got a menu bar at
the top with lots of tools I can and do use. Where did they go
in 4.3? They are probably around somewhere, but I'd really rather
they defaulted to the menu bar at the top of the window.
Sax2 is missing from YAST. Probably one should use randr (or whatever
it is called) instead. It could have been set up so that it was
called from YAST in addition to being available from the command line.
I think we'd all gotten used to the old setup. Change for the
sake of change is annoying.
And on and on. But what have we gained from this change?
felmon
> I'm at a KDE 3.5 Konsole window right now.
how does one install kde 3.5 in OpenSUSE 11.1?
I installed OpenSUSE 11.2 yesterday and I am a bit discontent. it is
partly because I am not sure I have got the best visual setup - the
resolution seems correct but the screen or maybe it's the fonts seem
indistinct (compared to Debian Lenny on the same system without much
tinkering).
but I am also a bit put off by kde 4.x. I can get used to it, I am sure,
but for now kde 3.5 is much better for me.
I would like at go at OpenSuse 11.1 with kde 3.5 if that's doable.
otherwise I'll probably hang at Debian Lenny still. Suse used to be my
main distribution but no longer.
Felmon
Will Honea
I think you represent a lot of us there, Paul. Change for the sake of
change is the best reason I know for doing NOTHING. A computer is a tool,
an operating system is a an attribute of the tool. Like a hammer - and
when one hammer isn't doing the best job for me I have no qualms about
changing to one that does. Isn't that why there are multiple tools that fit
the generic description of "hammer"? Rather than fight 11.2 I'm using the
time to investigate the other hammers out there - including other DE's -
just in case.
--
Will Honea
Darklight
I had a feeling some thing like this was going to happen when microsoft
brought into suse. Now lets see how long it takes to port kde to microsoft.
that is having a workable desk top for windows.
Darklight
to do resolution go to personal settings and then display.
EOS
> 1) Is there any way to set keyboard shortcuts to switch desktops in
> pager?
not that i know
> And how do I turn OFF desktop switching with the mouse?
not possible as far as i know
> 2) Is there a way to turn off transparency in Folder View?
can you give us a screenshot?
> 3) Video setup using sax2 seems to have disappeared off of Yast2. What
> has replaced it?
It's not replaced ;-)
there is no link in yast anymore (shame)
you can find it under "kmenu - system - configuration - sax2"
or just start it with "alt+F2" --> sax2
You also check the app under KDE4 for that
"kmenu - systemsettings - monitor"
> 4) Inside of Yast2, lots of the help files seem to be missing. How do
> I install them?
Hum, is it possible that yast is in "default EN"
check "yast2-trans-??"
> 5) I get lots of X11 errors like:
> Xlib: extension "Generic Event Extension" missing on display ":
> 1000.0".
> How do I fix this?
check the setting of you're monitor
I believe that you are using KDE4 ;-)
"kmenu - systemsettings - monitor"
--
EOS
www.photo-memories.be
Running KDE 4.3.3 / openSUSE 11.2
EOS
> There seems to be a lot of people who have an issue with KDE 4.x. To me
> that looks as if it might be a KDE thing and not so much an openSUSE
> thing.
that's true
openSUSE is not the fault of the "slow" development of KDE4
And i believe that openSUSE is the best distro to use KDE4 at the moment.
Baron
When you installed 11.1 you were offered a choice "Gnome, KDE4 and
Other" Choose "Other" and KDE3.5 is there. You can install it from
YAST as well.
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
EOS
> When you installed 11.1 you were offered a choice "Gnome, KDE4 and
> Other" Choose "Other" and KDE3.5 is there. You can install it from
> YAST as well.
adding KDE3 repo into openSUSE 11.2 works also
http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.2
jamesromeongmail.com
Thanks for actually trying to answer this and not to flame KDE4 (which
may deserve it). I have a logitech VXRevolution mouse, and the scroll
wheel seems to be changing the desktops. Because I have the mouse
wheel set to free wheel, moving the mouse quickly can change the
desktop. So I think the real question is "how do you set the mouse
wheel to only do a middle-click, and not a search, desktop switch, or
anything else?"
I do not know how to post a picture from Google, but the Folder View
widget has a transparent background. I hate transparency on anything.
I have another problem with the Application launcher. I removed old
versions of Netbeans, and their icons still remain in the launcher.
How does one remove them? KDE4 is so unintuitive. One would think that
a right-click menu would have a remove option?
On kmenu (which I believe is the Application Launcher), I do not have
"kmenu - systemsettings - monitor" . There is System, Configuration,
Sax2, but I am actually using a remote desktop, so the monitor is
different. But I see these X11 errors on the real monitor as well.
And surely there is a keystroke setting to change desktops?
Thanks,
Jim
Will Honea
> There seems to be a lot of people who have an issue with KDE 4.x. To me
> that looks as if it might be a KDE thing and not so much an openSUSE
> thing.
>
> If people think that is wrong, start using KDE 4.x on an other
> distribution.
I think you have the gist of the whole topic - either KDE 4 or the openSUSE
implementation are causing a lot of heartburn. Since the desktop
environment is the visible face of the distribution the crap flows downhill
from there and the whole distro gets slammed.
I know you don't use KDE so you may be missing the impact KDE 4 is having -
no way am I going to subject users to this mess when I finally got them
comfortable with KDE 3. I may have to pass on 11.2 regardless of the
improvements behind the desktop - and these improvements are appreciable.
Life is too short and too much work needs to get done to screw around with
extended beta testing of a upgraded component that offers no discernable
improvement/efficiency from the users.
--
Will Honea
Darklight
> houghi wrote:
>
>> There seems to be a lot of people who have an issue with KDE 4.x. To me
>> that looks as if it might be a KDE thing and not so much an openSUSE
>> thing.
>
>
> that's true
> openSUSE is not the fault of the "slow" development of KDE4
>
> And i believe that openSUSE is the best distro to use KDE4 at the moment.
I use 10.3 and will keep it for some time because it works and i can mess
about with it.
I installed 11.2 on my laptop and yes i am impressed but i think i would
miss sax2.
I did have a fear that opensuse or linux for that matter would become like
windows. i guess it would go that way as they want more people to use it.
i think linux users will just have to get used to it or go to another
distro.
There is one thing i did not try when installing 11.2 was manual config that
might bring back sax2.
The question people should be asking is sax2 still available in gnome?
Vahis
<snip>
> I installed 11.2 on my laptop and yes i am impressed but i think i would
> miss sax2.
You don't need to, it's there.
Just go to init 3 and run it as root, like always.
>
> I did have a fear that opensuse or linux for that matter would become like
> windows. i guess it would go that way as they want more people to use it.
> i think linux users will just have to get used to it or go to another
> distro.
>
> There is one thing i did not try when installing 11.2 was manual config that
> might bring back sax2.
Sax2 is there.
>
> The question people should be asking is sax2 still available in gnome?
Use CLI
Vahis
--
"Sunrise 8:41am (EET), sunset 3:31pm (EET) at Espoo, Finland (6:49 hours daylight)"
http://waxborg.servepics.com
Linux 2.6.25.20-0.5-default #1 SMP 2009-08-14 01:48:11 +0200 x86_64
8:22pm up 24 days 1:23, 11 users, load average: 0.25, 0.19, 0.21
EOS
> I installed 11.2 on my laptop and yes i am impressed but i think i would
> miss sax2.
there is sax2 in openSUSE 11.2 .........
http://users.telenet.be/photo-memories/img/sax2_on_openSUSE112.png
EOS
> I do not know how to post a picture from Google, but the Folder View
> widget has a transparent background. I hate transparency on anything.
>
You mean the plasma ;-)
i try it also, but no luck.
> I have another problem with the Application launcher. I removed old
> versions of Netbeans, and their icons still remain in the launcher.
> How does one remove them? KDE4 is so unintuitive. One would think that
> a right-click menu would have a remove option?
Do you mean "kmenu classic" for Application launcher
or "kickoff menu" (default)
on the icon right-click to change
1) just run "menu editor"
2) logout and login the user.
3) or find it in
"~/.local/share/applications"
"/usr/share/applications"
Baron
> Baron wrote:
>
>> When you installed 11.1 you were offered a choice "Gnome, KDE4 and
>> Other" Choose "Other" and KDE3.5 is there. You can install it from
>> YAST as well.
>
> adding KDE3 repo into openSUSE 11.2 works also
> http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.2
>
> http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3
Hey thanks for that tip !
--
Best Regards:
Baron.
David Bailey
> 1) Is there any way to set keyboard shortcuts to switch desktops in
> pager?
> And how do I turn OFF desktop switching with the mouse?
Start -> Personal Settings -> Keyboard & Mouse -> Global Keyboard
Shortcuts
Select "KWin" KDE component
Scroll down to "Switch to Next Desktop" and click on it.
Set the desired custom key combination (I use <CTRL> <ALT> Right)
Repeat for "Switch to Previous Desktop" two items below
Apply
--
Regards,
David Bailey
david _AT_ bailey _dot_ id _dot_ au
Paul J Gans
At installation of 11.1 from the DVD (not a CD) you are given
the choice of version.
Paul J Gans
I don't think it has anything to do with Microsoft. Many other
distributions are headed in this direction. For example Ubuntu
is far down this road. BUT Ubuntu has some simple tools for
configuring the system, all gathered together in two different
programs.
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> another year, by which time it should be nearing end of life.
>> At that point the then current openSUSE will be useful or I'll
>> be looking for another distro. I started with SLS and have been
>> through Slackware and Red Hat (and Ubuntu for laptops) and am
>> not afraid to move on.
>Neither am I. But I am also not blaming the OS for the DE. I just change
>the DE to something I like.
I'm not blaming teh OS either. It is a KDE problem and I thought
I'd made that clear. That said, openSUSE is largely tuned for
KDE even though they do make other DE's available.
Paul J Gans
>Baron wrote:
>> When you installed 11.1 you were offered a choice "Gnome, KDE4 and
>> Other" Choose "Other" and KDE3.5 is there. You can install it from
>> YAST as well.
>adding KDE3 repo into openSUSE 11.2 works also
>http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.2
But for how long will KDE3 be supported?
I'm set for the next year or so. I'm looking to see where I
go *after* that.
Paul J Gans
>Darklight wrote:
>> I installed 11.2 on my laptop and yes i am impressed but i think i would
>> miss sax2.
>there is sax2 in openSUSE 11.2 .........
>http://users.telenet.be/photo-memories/img/sax2_on_openSUSE112.png
Good to know. But why was it removed from YAST? Just to annoy
old users of openSUSE?
Paul J Gans
>Will Honea wrote:
>> I think you have the gist of the whole topic - either KDE 4 or the openSUSE
>> implementation are causing a lot of heartburn. Since the desktop
>> environment is the visible face of the distribution the crap flows downhill
>> from there and the whole distro gets slammed.
>It might be that the desktop is the visible face. However KDE is NOT the
>only option.
>> I know you don't use KDE so you may be missing the impact KDE 4 is having -
>> no way am I going to subject users to this mess when I finally got them
>> comfortable with KDE 3.
>And this is what I am talking about. People obly look at KDE 3 and KDE
>4. There is also GNOME and other stuff. My idea is that the reason
>people do not look at other things is that how things look are importand
>for them. Otherwise they would look at other, much uglier desktops that
>not have all the wistles and stuff like Copitz and what not.
>That is all great and dandy if that is what people want. The downside is
>that developers will be spending time on that and suddenly the voice
>comes up that people are concerned about functionality.
>So what the developers hear is that people want new functionality, but
>they do not functionality to change.
>Also it is my believe is that the drive to KDE is driven by people who
>came from Windows. They want something that is not too different. Very
>understandable. People do not like change in general.
>For me Linux has always been about choice. I have the choice. If I do
>not like one thing, I use something else that does what I like. If I do
>not like KDE, I use GNOME or XDFE or Windowmaker or IceWM or ...
>What I AM concerned about is that things are not so much Linux anymore,
>but are purely GUI driven. You no longer run Linux with X and on top KDE
>or GNOME. You run KDE with a Linux kernel or GNOME. It starts to ignore
>many of the underlying tools. To me that is a step backwards and can be
>seen all over the Linux community. Sucks.
I don't quite agree. What I've seen is that functionality
has been hidden. That isn't giving the user more control.
The user is getting less.
I wrote about the situation in console windows. I do almost
everything in a konsole window. I run programs I've written,
I write documents, I run system programs. I run math programs,
etc., etc. And I like the controls I get in a konsole window.
If I have to open a second window to change the default font
size in my first window, well, then that change is not increasing
functionality.
There's no objection on my part to adding new functionality
or to adding new eye candy as long as they don't take old
functionality away.
stan
Seems like KDE is really heading in a different direction than many
want. I realize other wm are possible but it's simply a shame to watch
KDE drag SUSE down the road with it. It's really a shame that the new
short life cycles force one to upgrade or deal with an increasingly
stale system. I was very content but each new release seems to head in
a direction that isn't compatible with my use. Seems like each release
is tuned to lure windows user over. I left windows for a reason and as
KDE goes in that direction it becomes more unpalatable.
I find it interesting that no one in my house from 6 to 60 likes the
new KDE4. Doesn't mean it's bad, I just thought maybe it was me. I
spend the vast majority of my time at a command line and touch the
mouse rarely, but my grandchildren grew up with gui's and they don't
get it either.
I don't intend this as a whine, it's simply a statement about a choice
I don't agree with and maybe this will be another data point to let
the developers know what the masses are experiencing. I'm not going to
11.2 and this will probably be my last SUSE distribution.
I've been around linux for a long time and I know how to get around
under the hood. I know that I can simply drop the parts that annoy and
fix my problems. I'm sure many will do just that and be happy. I won't
put that effort into fixing SUSE to meet my needs. I don't know what
distro better fits my needs and maybe it's time to simply go from
scratch.
For the record, my preferences notwithstanding, KDE4 doesn't really
feel completely ready for prime time yet. I don't really know why, but
I suspect that maybe it resources. There simply aren't enough
developers to maintain 3.5 and move 4 forward so they cut 3.5 loose
and decided to drop 4 as trial by fire. My primary concerns are more
general than actual growing pains, I don't agree with the direction. I
could probably sort through most difficulties as most are doing now. I
don't see any real show stoppers, just annoyances and time sink's. For
me its at a point where I spend more time than its worth to get
something that really isn't enjoyable in the end.
Oh well, I'm sure there are many who couldn't be happier and I wish
them well.
felmon
> When you installed 11.1 you were offered a choice "Gnome, KDE4 and
> Other" Choose "Other" and KDE3.5 is there. You can install it from YAST
> as well.
well, I installed 11.2 but subsequent posts suggest it is possible still
to install kd3. I'll investigate the next time I boot in.
Felmon
felmon
>> When you installed 11.1 you were offered a choice "Gnome, KDE4 and
>> Other" Choose "Other" and KDE3.5 is there. You can install it from
>> YAST as well.
>
> adding KDE3 repo into openSUSE 11.2 works also
> http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/KDE:/KDE3/openSUSE_11.2
>
> http://en.opensuse.org/KDE3
thank you. I will have a look at this. Felmon
Ulick Magee
> I had a feeling some thing like this was going to happen when microsoft
> brought into suse.
You are either trolling or are just repeating a line you heard about
issues you clearly do not understand.
Microsoft did not buy into SUSE or Novell.
Changes to KDE are as a result of decisions made by the KDE project.
Switching distros may buy you some more time, but KDE3 is going to die
off sooner or later.
If you don't like KDE4 then use a different desktop environment,
openSUSE supports more than most other distros.
> Now lets see how long it takes to port kde to microsoft.
> that is having a workable desk top for windows.
Anyone can port KDE or any free software to anything they like, provided
they comply with the appropriate licences.
Mac OSX is a proprietary OS largely based on BSD. Microsoft have used
BSD TCP/IP code previously (and maybe still do.)
--
Ulick Magee
Free software and free formats for free information for free people.
Open Office for Windows/OSX/Linux: http://www.openoffice.org
openSUSE Linux: http://en.opensuse.org
Peter Köhlmann
> Paul J Gans wrote:
>> Good to know. But why was it removed from YAST? Just to annoy
>> old users of openSUSE?
>
> As explained in the Release Notes, xorg.conf does not exist anymore. As
> that is not there anymore, why would it be needed in YaST?
>
> houghi
This is wrong
xorg.conf is not present by default, it still is needed if
a) X detects something wrong
b) you need to configure things which are not autodetected
And please remove your "reply.t...@your.provider.invalid"
The only thing you achieve with that is annyoing posters who want to
answer your post
--
Microsoft: The company that made email dangerous
And web browsing. And viewing pictures. And...
Ulick Magee
>
> And please remove your "reply.t...@your.provider.invalid"
>
> The only thing you achieve with that is annyoing posters who want to
> answer your post
Is this a Knode issue? it's not a problem in Thunderbird.
Peter Köhlmann
> Peter Köhlmann wrote:
>>
>> And please remove your "reply.t...@your.provider.invalid"
>>
>> The only thing you achieve with that is annyoing posters who want to
>> answer your post
>
> Is this a Knode issue? it's not a problem in Thunderbird.
>
No, KNode is doing the correct thing. It tries to answer in the group
*and* by email as requested by houghi (Mail-Copies-to in the header)
It would be bad enough if the email address is valid. It is totally
unacceptable to supply such shite as above adress.
And it is reason to report him to abuse if he does not stop it. He is
forcing posters to send invalid emails. A complete No-No
--
Support bacteria -- it's the only culture some people have!
David Bolt
houghi painted this mural:
> I am not forcing you to do anything <points the gun at the bambi> admit
> it or the deer gets it.
Don't hang about, just shoot it. It'll make a change from just puppies
and kittens being killed.
And, as a knode user, the only "issue" the header has for me is it I
have to remember to toggle the "Send Email" off. Not exactly a lot of
hard work to do.
Regards,
David Bolt
--
Team Acorn: www.distributed.net OGR-NG @ ~100Mnodes RC5-72 @ ~1Mkeys/s
openSUSE 10.3 32b | openSUSE 11.0 32b | | openSUSE 11.2 32b
openSUSE 10.3 64b | openSUSE 11.0 64b | openSUSE 11.1 64b |
RISC OS 4.02 | RISC OS 3.11 | openSUSE 11.1 PPC | TOS 4.02
David Bolt
houghi painted this mural:
> Paul J Gans wrote:
>> I don't quite agree. What I've seen is that functionality
>> has been hidden. That isn't giving the user more control.
>> The user is getting less.
>
> So you agree, not disagree with me. ;-)
> <snip>
I would agree about the user getting less control, but only in some
areas. And for those using 4.1, get 4.3 installed. It's more stable and
there's more control in 4.3 than there was in 4.1. I've been using
KDE4.3 full time on my 11.1 system for quite a while now, and while it
may not be exactly like 3.5, it's still comfortable to use. There are
still some niggles with it, and the ones that bug me the most already
have open bug reports so no point in me opening new ones.
>> There's no objection on my part to adding new functionality
>> or to adding new eye candy as long as they don't take old
>> functionality away.
>
> And what do the KDE developers say about that?
That it an interesting question to ask, especially since I rarely see
anyone complaining about KDE4 actually make reference to any dialogue
they've had with a developer.
> The only thing we can do
> here is applaud, discuss or moan about what is going on, but we are like
> a forrest where nobody will hear the tree fall.
Every time I hear/see that, I start suffering from the Lumberjack song
running through my head.
David Bolt
Ulick Magee painted this mural:
> Darklight wrote:
>
>> I had a feeling some thing like this was going to happen when microsoft
>> brought into suse.
>
> You are either trolling or are just repeating a line you heard about
> issues you clearly do not understand.
On this point, and the "how long it takes to port kde to microsoft"
point, certainly feels like trolling to me.
> Changes to KDE are as a result of decisions made by the KDE project.
And which were to do with maintenance and development of the code. It
was broken from the developers viewpoint, and so they fixed it by
rewriting it. It's a major pity that the distros jumped on the
"oooh, shiny and new" but "not really for public release" version of
KDE and foisted it upon their users. If they'd waited until KDE 4.2 or
4.3, there would probably have been less complaints[0]. Unfortunately,
the distros are in competition and everyone wants to be the first to
have the "shiny and new" stuff, even if it's .
> Switching distros may buy you some more time, but KDE3 is going to die
> off sooner or later.
As far as KDE is concerned, it's dead. As for future development,
that's up to the distros and those users that can maintain it. The
distros are already close to dropping it, and I think that some may
have already done so. The number of users that feel they can maintain
it is going to drop over time, and so it will end up suffering a slow
death.
> If you don't like KDE4 then use a different desktop environment,
> openSUSE supports more than most other distros.
XFCE is a nice one. I think it looks a little like KDE2, but it's fast
and lighter weight than either Gnome or KDE.
There's also Gnome, which I don't like. It seems like it is designed to
hide a lot of the configuration options from the user, making it pretty
good for newbies. As it's also pretty similar to KDE in looks, thanks
to the various efforts to provide a standardised look, so it may even
be good for those users that don't like to get into the nitty gritty
and tweak every single thing they can.
WindowMaker, IceWM and others are even lighter weight but are very
different from KDE, Gnome and XFCE in looks. Still, they are usable, as
there are at least a few people using these desktops and that post
here.
>> Now lets see how long it takes to port kde to microsoft.
>> that is having a workable desk top for windows.
>
> Anyone can port KDE or any free software to anything they like, provided
> they comply with the appropriate licences.
Darklight is a bit late in asking how long it will take for KDE to be
ported to Windows. There's been a project to do just that, hosted by
kde.org[1], that's been running for over a year. It's still on KDE4.3.0
so it's just a little bit behind the main development releases.
> Mac OSX is a proprietary OS largely based on BSD. Microsoft have used
> BSD TCP/IP code previously (and maybe still do.)
And you'd never know either way.
[0] I hated KDE4.0 and immediately went back to 3.5. With KDE4.1, I
still didn't like it and kept using 3.5. It wasn't until I discovered
that some issues I'd had were (supposedly) fixed in 4.2 that I searched
again. I found 4.3 was available and, while those issues that were
supposedly fixed aren't quite, it's much more customisable and I now
have it behaving similarly to how my 3.5 desktop behaved.
jamesromeongmail.com
> On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 11:45:24 -0800, jamesromeongmail.com wrote:
> > 1) Is there any way to set keyboard shortcuts to switch desktops in
> > pager?
> > And how do I turn OFF desktop switching with the mouse?
>
> Shortcuts
>
> Select "KWin" KDE component
>
> Scroll down to "Switch to Next Desktop" and click on it.
> Set the desired custom key combination (I use <CTRL> <ALT> Right)
>
> Repeat for "Switch to Previous Desktop" two items below
>
> Apply
>
> --
> Regards,
> David Bailey
> david _AT_ bailey _dot_ id _dot_ au
Thanks! That was obscure. Now all I need to do is to turn off
switching with the mouse.
stan
>
>
> stan wrote:
>> I find it interesting that no one in my house from 6 to 60 likes the
>> new KDE4. Doesn't mean it's bad, I just thought maybe it was me. I
>> spend the vast majority of my time at a command line and touch the
>> mouse rarely, but my grandchildren grew up with gui's and they don't
>> get it either.
>
> or do not hear about this enough. LET THEM KNOW. There are KDE meetings
> at openSUSE that you can join over IRC. LET THEM KNOW.
I have talked to KDE developers; we disagree on the future.
>> I don't intend this as a whine, it's simply a statement about a choice
>> I don't agree with and maybe this will be another data point to let
>> the developers know what the masses are experiencing. I'm not going to
>> 11.2 and this will probably be my last SUSE distribution.
>
> Not here. This group is about helping people who have problems.
> Developers do not read this group. That said, every time I speak with
> developers, what they want to have is feedback.
As you well know, KDE is not SUSE. openSUSE isn't under a gun to willy
nilly accept whatever comes from KDE. Maybe if a couple of
distributions refused to upgrade at least for awhile, then KDE would
feel some pressure to listen. I don't know, but as long as everyone
goes along like lemmings, then I don't see anything changing.
The current growing pains will probably subside and many who are
displeased now will grow to accept this direction. I realize I'm in a
minority and I can live with that and I'm sure SUSE will get along
just fine even if I'm not around any more.
On another point, the KDE side cites their usability studies to
justify much of the current direction. The thing is that I can't
actually find one person that agrees with their studies. Maybe my
world is small or completely different than the one they are
studying. Every new release brings higher traffic, but the KDE4 based
releases seem to be causing some fundamental noise. I won't call the
developers liars, but it seems like maybe they are working on a line
where people either love or hate the current interface and their
studies are missing something. You would think that at a large
university I would be able to find one geek who approves of the
interface, but a survey two months ago unanimously panned KDE4. Maybe
I just need to get out more?
I don't think I would be really comfortable in their shoes;
but then again that's why I don't program user interfaces if I can
possibly find a way to avoid it. It's a very hard job and you will
never make everyone satisfied.
Your point is well taken though that most people would do better
directly talking to developers. I did that, made my case, and
lost. Although it's really annoying when people don't agree, you have
to know when to pick your battles :)
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> old users of openSUSE?
>As explained in the Release Notes, xorg.conf does not exist anymore. As
>that is not there anymore, why would it be needed in YaST?
We are talking about a tool to fix color depth and screen resolution.
That has traditionally been located in YAST. Why move it out of
YAST? Just to be difficult?
That's what I don't understand.
It has nothing to do with xorg.conf. It has nothing to do with
anything except a desire to be different.
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> has been hidden. That isn't giving the user more control.
>> The user is getting less.
>So you agree, not disagree with me. ;-)
><snip>
>> There's no objection on my part to adding new functionality
>> or to adding new eye candy as long as they don't take old
>> functionality away.
>And what do the KDE developers say about that? The only thing we can do
>here is applaud, discuss or moan about what is going on, but we are like
>a forrest where nobody will hear the tree fall.
You've always been on a different track than many of us. You
have to understand that I USE linux every day all the time.
My one "recreation" is to read this and a few other newsgroups.
All linux distributions are based on linux. All use gcc, provide
emacs and vi, and dozens of other tools. What makes distributions
different is their look and feel. One expects a certain kind of
continuity between editions of a distribution. Most of the popular
ones have maintained a look and feel because their users have almost
no learning curve in using them.
OpenSUSE is of course free to do what it wants. But with 11.2 they
seem to have broken the look and feel in a rather drastic manner.
I assume that they had a reason for doing this. I have reasons
for not liking it very much. And it isn't so much the look, it
is the feel.
And that is going to be somewhat independent of what desktop
manager you use. I'm used to certain things being done in
YAST. And I'm used to other things being controlled by
fairly easy to find configuration files in /etc.
I am particularly used to the convention that says that a left
mouse click activates what one is clicking on, and a right mouse
click gives a menu of options for whata one is clicking on. I
right click on the KDE desktop and I get a list of sensible
options for the desktop. I right click on the menu bar at the
bottom of the display and I get a list of sensible options for
the menu bar. This is what I mean by the "feel" of a system.
KDE4 seems to have changed all that.
I can learn all the new things in the new feel. But if I'm going
to do that, I might as well look at other distributions to see if
I like their "feel" better.
No problem there.
What I don't understand is why the KDE folks found it so necessary
to change the feel -- and why openSUSE found it so necessary to
follow them.
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> go *after* that.
>As you (and many others) seem so focussed on KDE3, perhaps back to
>Windows? No, this is not trolling.
I cannot do in Windows what I need to do on a computer. Period.
>It is as if KDE3 is the only thing that exists out there, is the only
>good thing and nothing else matters.
No. See my recent post about the "feel" of a distribution.
>If that is the case, why is it not yet forked? Fork it and if you
>desire, call it something different. I am not talking to a person
>individually. I am talking to all people who seem to be moaning how bad
>KDE4 is and how great KDE3 is.
>For all I know you are right with that. Then start doing something about
>it. Untill then, KDE3 will be dropped, there will be only KDE4 that you
>won't like and a good alternative might be back to Windows.
Houghi, when I retire, I might do that. Right now I have no time.
I need to get things done.
And no, you don't want my rant on Windows. Windows is a device to
keep the user from actually USING the computer. It lets you play,
and it lets you run canned packages. Some folks can actually do
productive work on such a machine. But they are often acting
like data entry people and not at all being creative.
That's the start of the rant. You don't want the rest.
Paul J Gans
>stan wrote:
>> I find it interesting that no one in my house from 6 to 60 likes the
>> new KDE4. Doesn't mean it's bad, I just thought maybe it was me. I
>> spend the vast majority of my time at a command line and touch the
>> mouse rarely, but my grandchildren grew up with gui's and they don't
>> get it either.
>I find it interesting that apparently the KDE developers do not listen
>or do not hear about this enough. LET THEM KNOW. There are KDE meetings
>at openSUSE that you can join over IRC. LET THEM KNOW.
>> I don't intend this as a whine, it's simply a statement about a choice
>> I don't agree with and maybe this will be another data point to let
>> the developers know what the masses are experiencing. I'm not going to
>> 11.2 and this will probably be my last SUSE distribution.
>Not here. This group is about helping people who have problems.
>Developers do not read this group. That said, every time I speak with
>developers, what they want to have is feedback.
Then perhaps they ought to spend a few minutes of their precious time
(and it is precious) reading this group?
Paul J Gans
>On Tuesday 24 Nov 2009 11:34, while playing with a tin of spray paint,
>Ulick Magee painted this mural:
[snip]
>On this point, and the "how long it takes to port kde to microsoft"
>point, certainly feels like trolling to me.
>> Changes to KDE are as a result of decisions made by the KDE project.
>And which were to do with maintenance and development of the code. It
>was broken from the developers viewpoint, and so they fixed it by
>rewriting it. It's a major pity that the distros jumped on the
>"oooh, shiny and new" but "not really for public release" version of
>KDE and foisted it upon their users. If they'd waited until KDE 4.2 or
>4.3, there would probably have been less complaints[0]. Unfortunately,
>the distros are in competition and everyone wants to be the first to
>have the "shiny and new" stuff, even if it's .
>> Switching distros may buy you some more time, but KDE3 is going to die
>> off sooner or later.
>As far as KDE is concerned, it's dead. As for future development,
>that's up to the distros and those users that can maintain it. The
>distros are already close to dropping it, and I think that some may
>have already done so. The number of users that feel they can maintain
>it is going to drop over time, and so it will end up suffering a slow
>death.
>> If you don't like KDE4 then use a different desktop environment,
>> openSUSE supports more than most other distros.
>XFCE is a nice one. I think it looks a little like KDE2, but it's fast
>and lighter weight than either Gnome or KDE.
I shall have to try it.
>There's also Gnome, which I don't like. It seems like it is designed to
>hide a lot of the configuration options from the user, making it pretty
>good for newbies. As it's also pretty similar to KDE in looks, thanks
>to the various efforts to provide a standardised look, so it may even
>be good for those users that don't like to get into the nitty gritty
>and tweak every single thing they can.
Yes.
>WindowMaker, IceWM and others are even lighter weight but are very
>different from KDE, Gnome and XFCE in looks. Still, they are usable, as
>there are at least a few people using these desktops and that post
>here.
I'll check out XFCE and perhaps IceWM. If they suit my needs,
fine.
And thanks for the post.
Paul J Gans
>The reasoning behind it is that e.g. nividia-setup will take care of it
>and in general it is not needed. I understand that you might disagree.
You and I both know that there is NO automatic hardware setup that
will work on all machines. And video setup, like sound, is one
of the areas with the most difficulty. So why hide the YAST entry
to fix it?
So you see that you are right. I don't agree.
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> OpenSUSE is of course free to do what it wants. But with 11.2 they
>> seem to have broken the look and feel in a rather drastic manner.
>> What I don't understand is why the KDE folks found it so necessary
>> to change the feel -- and why openSUSE found it so necessary to
>> follow them.
>So on one side you are talking about openSUSE and the you start talking
>about KDE. To me it is a KDE issue, not an openSUSE issue.
Not at all.
1) I don't understand why the KDE folks found it necessary to
change the FEEL. I have no problem with them changing the
look.
2) So when openSUSE adopted KDE4, openSUSE was, in fact, changing
the FEEL of openSUSE, at least in the default installation.
You are free to feel differently.
felmon
> That's the start of the rant. You don't want the rest.
some of us do! tell us a story!
also, does your rant include Windows 7?
I probably don't think Windows is quite as bad as you do but such
judgments depend a lot on the kind and style of work one does.
(I have myself never been a Windows user. I transited to Linux from OS/2
some yrs ago.)
Felmon
David Bolt
houghi painted this mural:
> David Bolt wrote:
>> That it an interesting question to ask, especially since I rarely see
>> anyone complaining about KDE4 actually make reference to any dialogue
>> they've had with a developer.
>
> The only person that seems to make a bit of noise about things changing
> in the developers mailinglist does not even use KDE.
I haven't made any noise because I don't expect it to be the same as
KDE3. It's a complete rewrite and so I expected it to be different. And
it's not like it's that hard to work with as most things are fairly
similar to the previous major version. Locations of some (a lot of?)
the configuration options have changed, some items have gone and some
new ones have appeared, and it may need getting used to the changes.
>> Every time I hear/see that, I start suffering from the Lumberjack song
>> running through my head.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiVOG199X2c Or is that not the version
> you suffer from?
That's the one. At least I haven't started thinking about the Spanish
Inquisition and being tortured with the comfy cushions.
Paul J Gans
>On Tue, 24 Nov 2009 22:26:52 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:
>> That's the start of the rant. You don't want the rest.
>some of us do! tell us a story!
Too off topic even for me.
>also, does your rant include Windows 7?
I've never used Windows 7.
>I probably don't think Windows is quite as bad as you do but such
>judgments depend a lot on the kind and style of work one does.
That's the point. I frequently write technical stuff using
TeX (Latex, actually). In openSUSE, thanks to KDE, I have
one screen open with a long window (a simple wheel-click on the
fullsize icon at the upper right) and one open normally. The
current file being edited or written is in the long window. I
do "compiles" in the small window.
On a second screen I keep a copy of gv open displaying the
results of the composition.
On a third screen I keep open a copy of an earlier edition of the
manuscript I'm working on and a window containing an instance of
ispell.
On a fourth screen I have a window showing my current e-mail.
On a fifth one I usually have a browser for whatever needs.
I always assign these things to more or less standard screens
so they are all one click away. Try doing that in Windows.
>(I have myself never been a Windows user. I transited to Linux from OS/2
>some yrs ago.)
--
--- Paul J. Gans
Paul J Gans
>You keep asking questions here as if there were developers here to
>answer them. They are not here.
>So all I can do is try to imagine why they would do it and say that.
>That does not mean I agree with them. I just try to explain.
>If you are really interested, ask the developers themselves.
>> So you see that you are right. I don't agree.
>For all you know, perhaps I don't either. So now what?
Now what? Well...
I've learned some more about 11.2 from other folks here,
I've learned where some of the configuration files are, and
I've learned that others have similar feelings.
The result is that I feel better about 11.2 although I'm
not yet about to switch to it.
houghi
> The result is that I feel better about 11.2 although I'm
> not yet about to switch to it.
Look at XFCE. It will take some time to configure if you are not
familiar with it, but I am amazed. Last time I looked at it, it was
unfinished, now it is done.
--
houghi
> The businessworld is like prison and M$ made everybody their bitch.
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> The result is that I feel better about 11.2 although I'm
>> not yet about to switch to it.
>Look at XFCE. It will take some time to configure if you are not
>familiar with it, but I am amazed. Last time I looked at it, it was
>unfinished, now it is done.
Well now, that is good advice.
Do I have to tell the developers?
Ulick Magee
> In openSUSE, thanks to KDE, I have
> one screen open with a long window (a simple wheel-click on the
> fullsize icon at the upper right) and one open normally.
I've been using KDE for years, I never knew you could do that...
--
Ulick Magee
Free software and free formats for free information for free people.
Open Office for Windows/OSX/Linux: http://www.openoffice.org
openSUSE Linux: http://en.opensuse.org
Will Honea
> Houghi, when I retire, I might do that. Right now I have no time.
> I need to get things done.
Listen to your elders, Paul: retirement ain't all it's cracked up to be.
The fact that you are retired simply implies that you have "free time".
Everyone you know (and a lot that you don't) are attracted by the "time"
part - the "free" part simply eggs them on. They all seem bound and
determined to fill that void for you (especially the wife, kids, and
grandkids).
> And no, you don't want my rant on Windows. Windows is a device to
> keep the user from actually USING the computer. It lets you play,
> and it lets you run canned packages. Some folks can actually do
> productive work on such a machine. But they are often acting
> like data entry people and not at all being creative.
These same people also view you as a boundless resource, ready to drop
whatever you might actually be doing in favor of their "crisis". Long
before I retired I developed a curmudgeon persona which has stood me in
good stead for several years already. ;-)
--
Will Honea
Will Honea
> On Mon, 23 Nov 2009 10:56:05 +0000, Baron wrote:
>
>
>> When you installed 11.1 you were offered a choice "Gnome, KDE4 and
>> Other" Choose "Other" and KDE3.5 is there. You can install it from YAST
>> as well.
>
> well, I installed 11.2 but subsequent posts suggest it is possible still
> to install kd3. I'll investigate the next time I boot in.
I'm wandering down that road myself.
First pass was a simple upgrade install. Result: KDE4 and a mess of files
just hanging around.
Second effort was a clean install selecting XFCE as the DE then using YAST
to add the 3.5 repo and installing from there. Marginally better but some
stuff is still not quite right.
Next step will be a fresh install of a command line system only. About as
clean as you can get the system. From that, I'll use zypper (or cmd line
yast) to add the 3.5 repo and get as clean of a 3.5 install as I can. From
there I can evaluate the componets - my 11.1 system is already so
bastardized from the inital upgrade from 11.0 to 11.1 back when (before I
knew better) that I have a reall kludge of KDE 3 and KDE 4 apps running.
My best guess is that the final result will be a KDE 3 desktop with a bunch
of KDE 4 components since there are some nice improvements in some of the
apps. May you live in interesting times!
--
Will Honea
Paul J Gans
>As a matter of fact, yes. They would love to get ANY feedback, so also
>positive feedback or just a tank you or telling them you use it.
Good. I'll be glad to do that. Do you have an e-mail address
or a URL. I generally find the openSUSE web site to be unnavigatable.
Will Honea
> As explained in the Release Notes, xorg.conf does not exist anymore. As
> that is not there anymore, why would it be needed in YaST?
Maybe so that those who need the extra control of detail it affords could
put xorg.conf back to do what needs doing. I see a lot of older video
cards that require considerable TLC (via xorg.conf) in order to obtain
optimal performance. Since xorg.conf - if present - supercedes the
the "approved solution" why make it so damned obscure to use? The ones who
don't need it will ignore anyway.
--
Will Honea
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> In openSUSE, thanks to KDE, I have
>> one screen open with a long window (a simple wheel-click on the
>> fullsize icon at the upper right) and one open normally.
>I've been using KDE for years, I never knew you could do that...
It is very useful. A left click makes the window full screen (as
it should). A center click extends the window to the bottom of
the screen. A right click extends the window sideways to fill
the screen.
The center click is excellent for reading code or any ascii document.
The right click is excellent for looking at log files and the like
without any wrapping.
I don't know where I found out about this. In general the documentation
is TERRIBLE. But that's because folks would rather write code. So
would I, so I can't blame them for it.
None of this seems to work in KDE4.3, which is too bad.
Paul J Gans
>Paul J Gans wrote:
>> Houghi, when I retire, I might do that. Right now I have no time.
>> I need to get things done.
>Listen to your elders, Paul: retirement ain't all it's cracked up to be.
>The fact that you are retired simply implies that you have "free time".
>Everyone you know (and a lot that you don't) are attracted by the "time"
>part - the "free" part simply eggs them on. They all seem bound and
>determined to fill that void for you (especially the wife, kids, and
>grandkids).
<grin>
Yes, I'm aware of that. My wife is quite understanding and is
willing to let me continue to work on a number of my own projects.
>> And no, you don't want my rant on Windows. Windows is a device to
>> keep the user from actually USING the computer. It lets you play,
>> and it lets you run canned packages. Some folks can actually do
>> productive work on such a machine. But they are often acting
>> like data entry people and not at all being creative.
>These same people also view you as a boundless resource, ready to drop
>whatever you might actually be doing in favor of their "crisis". Long
>before I retired I developed a curmudgeon persona which has stood me in
>good stead for several years already. ;-)
I stopped giving advice on Macs when I could not find where
iPhoto stores its files. A fascistic operating system at its
best. And I don't give much advice on Windows because i hardly
use it any more and what I know comes from XP, now Vista or Win7.
So I'm left with giving advice on openSUSE, which nobody I know
socially uses, so I'm in the clear there. ;-)
Eef Hartman
> For all I know you are right with that. Then start doing something about
> it. Untill then, KDE3 will be dropped,
KDE 3 has already been dropped, both by the KDE development team
(there will be no updates/bug-fixes/security-patches for 3.5.10
anymore) and by most of the newer releases of the major distributions
like Slackware 13.0, openSUSE 11.2, kubuntu 9.10, Fedora 12 and
probably others). Even SLED 11 doesn't supply KDE 3 anymore.
OK, CentOS 5.4 still does, but of course they follow RHEL 5 and
Red Hat won't be switching until RHEL 6 is released (it is not
known yet when that will be).
--
*******************************************************************
** Eef Hartman, Delft University of Technology, dept. SSC/ICT **
** e-mail: E.J.M....@tudelft.nl - phone: +31-15-278 82525 **
*******************************************************************
felmon
> I always assign these things to more or less standard screens so they
> are all one click away. Try doing that in Windows.
you're right about my going off-topic but just another remark about
styles of work. what you described would drive our secretary or my wife
(very smart folks) bonkers. both of them shut down one application when
they start another! (probably with the exception of the browser.) of
course, using Windows they don't know about this desktop magic but I
doubt they would use it because it still would feel 'cluttered'.
I seldom use it myself. old dog. not sure it would help me much in my
work either.
frankly and to be fair, what I need to do is research what kde4.x gains
me that I don't have with kde3.x (aside from a later eol).
Felmon
Will Honea
> Will Honea wrote:
>> Second effort was a clean install selecting XFCE as the DE
>
> You should have stopped there. ;-)
Believe me, I thought long and hard about it! The crux of my problem
(beyond the uneasiness over flakey/missing functions) are the users. For
the organizations I support (on a volunteer basis as I am also on most of
their boards) by far the majority of the users are barely able to turn the
computer on. They are, in general, quite competent at their specific tasks
but their comfort range is very small; moving an icon on the desktop upsets
their whole routine. That means that XFCE presents essentially the same
problems as does KDE 4. In point of fact, if I can manage to strip KDE 4 to
a bare minimum and essentially cover it with a skin that looks and
essentially acts like KDE 3 I will consider it much more favorably.
(as an aside - I'm not sure which I prefer to work with: the know-it-all or
the helpless; the latter takes a lot of time, the former is downright
dangerous)
--
Will Honea
Paul J Gans
True.
But in fact I suspect that sooner or later (I hope later for me)
we will just have to get used to KDE4 -- OR find another window
manager we like better.
Will Honea
> You will always have this, unless you decide to build stuff yourself.
> So if you want to be sure that you can use KDE3 in the future, download
> the sources and build it yourself.
> That will probably be way to much time.
>
> Another thing I would look at with those users is longlivety. openSUSE
> is 18 months. There now is zypper dup, but that can still mean icons get
> changed and what not. So I would go for something else.
Since the object of this circle jerk is to minimize my effort and (slowly
but surely) turn things over to the younger generation - custom compilation
is not a viable option. That's also the primary rationale behind keeping
the KDE3 DE - less hassle and re-training cost/effort.
At this point, I've decided that my best option is to make use of that 18
month window as much as possible and stay with 11.1 for the time being. I
may migrate the text-mode server to 11.2 - maybe and I'll keep
watching/playing with 11.2/KDE4 but right now it just isn't ready for prime
time (KDE4, that is) in my application. Maybe someone will get the message:
eye candy is nice but ONLY as an option.
For now, it ain't broke, so...
Thanks for the discussion.
--
Will Honea
madscientist159
> houghi <hou...@houghi.org.invalid> wrote:
> >Paul J Gans wrote:
> >> go *after* that.
> >As you (and many others) seem so focussed on KDE3, perhaps back to
> >Windows? No, this is not trolling.
>
> I cannot do in Windows what I need to do on a computer. Period.
>
> >It is as if KDE3 is the only thing that exists out there, is the only
> >good thing and nothing else matters.
>
> No. See my recent post about the "feel" of a distribution.
>
> >If that is the case, why is it not yet forked? Fork it and if you
> >desire, call it something different. I am not talking to a person
> >individually. I am talking to all people who seem to be moaning how bad
> >KDE4 is and how great KDE3 is.
> >For all I know you are right with that. Then start doing something about
> >won't like and a good alternative might be back to Windows.
>
> Houghi, when I retire, I might do that. Right now I have no time.
> I need to get things done.
>
> keep the user from actually USING the computer. It lets you play,
> and it lets you run canned packages. Some folks can actually do
> productive work on such a machine. But they are often acting
> like data entry people and not at all being creative.
>
>
> --- Paul J. Gans
Yes, it has been forked. I have a website up at http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net
(it's down at the moment for maintenance, but will be back in a couple
of days) that details the new Trinity project. Basically, for the
past year or so I had been maintaining and significantly enhancing
KDE3.5 for Ubuntu systems, and I recently decided that I had
accumulated enough altered code to justify a true fork. I am looking
for other developers who would like to assist; just like the original
KDE, you don't need to write code to help; even helping with the UI
design or artwork is much appreciated. If you are interested in
helping, please contact me at kb9...@pearsoncomputing.net. Offical
SVN is here at the moment; as you can see, changes are already being
checked in: http://websvn.kde.org/branches/trinity/
Long live the (efficient) KDE3.5 interface :-)
Timothy Pearson
Trinity Developer