ATTN:::UNCLE THEODORE
Circuit Breaker
I'm a curious bastard, would you mind telling me what the hell "XY#
BO#HE!" means???
Thanks,
Circuit Breaker
(feels the laughter building far away)
--
All views expressed in this message are the opinions of the author and
do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any business or
organization with which this idiot may be affiliated.
patrick_darcy
> Got a question for ya...
>
> I'm a curious bastard, would you mind telling me what the hell "XY#
> BO#HE!" means???
>
> Thanks,
>
> Circuit Breaker
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (feels the laughter building far away)
and while u are at it would u mind posting
your cat proc file, so i see how my computer
compares with yours.
thank u :)
--
*LOVE* is all u need.
Zbigniew A.
> Got a question for ya...
>
> I'm a curious bastard, would you mind telling me what the hell "XY#
> BO#HE!" means???
>
> Thanks,
>
> Circuit Breaker
You wouldn't want to know...
> (feels the laughter building far away)
You're American, right? You'll be sorry when he tells ya.
Yours Virtually, Zbigniew A.
(feels a long and winding OT thread building far away...)
--
Uncle Theodore
> Got a question for ya...
>
> I'm a curious bastard, would you mind telling me what the hell "XY#
> BO#HE!" means???
>
> Thanks,
>
> Circuit Breaker
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> (feels the laughter building far away)
If you have to ask. On February 25 Russian group TATU was performing live
on NBC's "Tonight Show" with Jay Leno (I have a clip of that performance
as a proof if you wonder). The girls (Lena and Yulia) were in white
T-shirts with big black Russian letters, "XY# BO#HE". "XY#" means "Dick",
a very derogatory term, "BO#HA" is "War". I use "#" to denote a Russian
letter that is pronounced as "i" in "poison". Now you know.
I don't feel like talking about that right now (as well as about the
speed of my computer to patrick). Today Americans opened fire on Russian
diplomates leaving Baghdad, three Embassy workers are wounded. It was no
mistake in case you wonder. It's four and a half months until my current
contract ends and I can go home to Russia. I can't wait.
UT
Eric Yeoh
And George W Bush is making a fool of himself by associating his war
against the Iraqis as a crusade against evil.
What a redneck!!!
Eric
Peter T. Breuer
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 10:36:31 -0500, Circuit Breaker wrote:
> speed of my computer to patrick). Today Americans opened fire on Russian
> diplomates leaving Baghdad, three Embassy workers are wounded. It was no
CNN seems unsure who did it. It was in iraqi territory and it was small
arms fire. That would point one way. But CNN still seems to be hedging
its bets. I wonder what the BBC says ...
> mistake in case you wonder. It's four and a half months until my current
But whose "no mistake"? And was it ordered or was it someones bright
idea? I believe in the stupidity theory of human planning.
Peter
Scotty
Aren't those the 2 girls who said in an interview that they have
sex with each other several times a day? Gotta love 'em!
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/11/1044927596048.html
--
, ,
("\''/").___..--''"`-._
`9_ 9 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' .'
(il).-'' ((i).' ((!.-' meow...
bye for now :^)
Scotty
Peter T. Breuer
> speed of my computer to patrick). Today Americans opened fire on Russian
> diplomates leaving Baghdad, three Embassy workers are wounded. It was no
The bbc has this ..
A convoy of Russian diplomatic cars shot at while leaving Baghdad was
caught in crossfire between US and Iraqi forces, a Russian TV
journalist travelling with the convoy has said.
Alexander Minakov, speaking from the Iraqi-Jordanian border, said the
convoy was passing Iraqi positions on the edge of the city when it
came under heavy fire.
He said the Iraqis were shelled by coalition forces and returned
fire.
It is not clear whether the shots that hit the convoy came from US or
Iraqi forces, but Russian media reported that two bullets from the
stomach of one victim came from an M-16 semi-automatic assault rifle,
used by US marines.
Seems to be the marines taking their own opportunities. If you believe
the media. Either journalists are better at removing and identifying bullets
than me, or they got to a surgeon real fast. This happened about an
hour ago, no?
> mistake in case you wonder. It's four and a half months until my current
> contract ends and I can go home to Russia. I can't wait.
Cnn has this:
MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Five people were injured Sunday when a convoy
of vehicles with 25 Russian diplomats and journalists trying to flee
Iraq was attacked as it headed for the Syrian border, a Russian
Foreign Ministry spokesman said.
The attack occurred shortly before noon (4 a.m. EDT) about 19 miles
(30 kilometers) outside Baghdad, a Russian official in Syria said.
The Russian Foreign Ministry said the injuries were minor. The five
were expected to receive treatment and would spend the night in the
Iraqi town of Felujah before pressing on Monday to Damascus, Syria.
The Russian Emergency Ministry said it was preparing to send a plane
with doctors and medical equipment to Syria to evacuate the group.
Vladimir Titorenko, Russia's ambassador to Iraq, was one of those who
suffered minor injuries, a spokesman said.
The lead correspondent for RTR, a Russian state-run television
station, also was in the convoy, officials said. It was unclear if he
was hurt.
A spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Moscow told CNN that U.S.
officials have been "in close contact" with the Russian government
but had not determined who carried out the attack on the motorcade.
The spokesman said the United States is "trying to establish direct
contact between the Russian convoy and the U.S. military on the
ground so that they may provide any help needed."
U.S. Central Command had been informed of the convoy's departure from
Baghdad and the route it planned to follow, officials said.
Central Command said Sunday the convoy came under attack in territory
controlled by the Iraqi government. U.S. officials also said no
coalition forces were in the area at the time.
U.S. Army officials told CNN's Walter Rodgers that the convoy turned
around and headed back to Baghdad. The Russian Foreign Ministry
spokesman denied that was the case.
Army officials said coalition soldiers did not fire on the convoy and
that the shooters were probably from the Iraqi paramilitary group
Fedayeen Saddam, according to CNN's Rodgers, who is embedded with the
3rd Squadron, 7th Cavalry of the 3rd Infantry Division.
U.S. and Russian officials are trying to confirm details, including
the location of the attack and the identity of the attacker,
spokesmen for the Russian Foreign Ministry and U.S. Embassy in Moscow
said.
Russian President Vladimir Putin was informed of the attack,
officials said.
The ambassadors to Russia from the United States and Iraq were
summoned to the Russian Foreign Ministry and told Moscow wants the
matter investigated and those responsible punished. Moscow also urged
both sides to protect the safety of Russians in Iraq.
Peter
Uncle Theodore
The cars (with Russian flags on them) were under fire twice. An
eyewitness is sure both times it was Americans (I'm reading a Russian
press-release), when surgery was performed on one wounded diplomat, two
M-16 bullets were taken out. The second time, the cars stopped when they
saw Jeeps nearby, and one car with a big Russian flag went to inform the
people in Jeeps who they were. The car was fired upom from automatic
weapons.
Russian Foreign Ministry had informed both sides about the time and the
route of the Embassy evacuation. American Ambasador threatened Russian
diplomats before, after Russians refused to expell the Iraqi Ambassador
from Moscow.
As to stupidity, American version of it seems to be a little too
convinient, just like with the Chinese Embassy bombing last time they
were bringing Freedom (tm) to the rest of the world.
Good Luck,
UT
--
XY# BO#HE!
Bradley Reed
Uncle Theodore <unclet...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The cars (with Russian flags on them) were under fire twice. An
> eyewitness is sure both times it was Americans (I'm reading a Russian
> press-release), when surgery was performed on one wounded diplomat,
> two M-16 bullets were taken out. The second time, the cars stopped
> when they saw Jeeps nearby, and one car with a big Russian flag went
> to inform the people in Jeeps who they were. The car was fired upom
> from automatic weapons.
>
> Russian Foreign Ministry had informed both sides about the time and
> the route of the Embassy evacuation. American Ambasador threatened
> Russian diplomats before, after Russians refused to expell the Iraqi
> Ambassador from Moscow.
>
> As to stupidity, American version of it seems to be a little too
> convinient, just like with the Chinese Embassy bombing last time they
> were bringing Freedom (tm) to the rest of the world.
>
Now, I obviously have no proof one way or the other regarding who shot
the Russian vehicles, but the US military hasn't used Jeeps in a long
time. They were all replaced with HUMVEEs and other more modern
vehicles. M-16 bullets are simply 5.56mm rounds, I wouldn't be surprised
if all parties in Iraq were firing them. They are very common and US
ammo tends to get around...
My apologies regardless though.
Brad
Uncle Theodore
> Uncle Theodore <unclet...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> speed of my computer to patrick). Today Americans opened fire on
>> Russian diplomates leaving Baghdad, three Embassy workers are wounded.
>> It was no
>
> The bbc has this ..
>
> A convoy of Russian diplomatic cars shot at while leaving Baghdad was
> caught in crossfire between US and Iraqi forces, a Russian TV
> journalist travelling with the convoy has said.
>
> Alexander Minakov, speaking from the Iraqi-Jordanian border, said the
> convoy was passing Iraqi positions on the edge of the city when it
> came under heavy fire.
It was the first time they were fired upon. They got into cross-fire
between Americans and Iraqis 8 km from Baghdad (with no Americans
apparently present in the area according to Pentagon), had to leave
one car, but peolpe had only minor injuries. It was the second attack on
a car under Russian flag, going to negociate, that resulted in wounding 3
or 4 people.
Russian Ambassador wasn't apparently injured. As to the M-16 bullets,
have you seen them? They are quite distinguishable...
Uncle Theodore
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 20:34:55 GMT
> Uncle Theodore <unclet...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The cars (with Russian flags on them) were under fire twice. An
>> eyewitness is sure both times it was Americans (I'm reading a Russian
>> press-release), when surgery was performed on one wounded diplomat, two
>> M-16 bullets were taken out. The second time, the cars stopped when
>> they saw Jeeps nearby, and one car with a big Russian flag went to
>> inform the people in Jeeps who they were. The car was fired upom from
>> automatic weapons.
>>
>> Russian Foreign Ministry had informed both sides about the time and the
>> route of the Embassy evacuation. American Ambasador threatened Russian
>> diplomats before, after Russians refused to expell the Iraqi Ambassador
>> from Moscow.
>>
>> As to stupidity, American version of it seems to be a little too
>> convinient, just like with the Chinese Embassy bombing last time they
>> were bringing Freedom (tm) to the rest of the world.
>>
>>
> Now, I obviously have no proof one way or the other regarding who shot
> the Russian vehicles, but the US military hasn't used Jeeps in a long
> time. They were all replaced with HUMVEEs and other more modern
> vehicles.
Yes, but you should understand that for Russians about any American
military vehicle is a Jeep, HUMVEE included. It's like a general term, I've
seen phrases like "Jeep HUMVEE" in Russian press.
> M-16 bullets are simply 5.56mm rounds,
Exactly. AK(M)-47 uses 7.62 ammo and AK-74 is 5.45mm, the American rifle
is non-standard in this respect.
> I wouldn't be surprised
> if all parties in Iraq were firing them. They are very common and US
> ammo tends to get around...
For Iraqis to fire 5.56mm ammo, they need to use a 5.56 gun, preferably
M-16. There's no way to stick a 5.56 round into a Kalashnikov without a
hammer.
> My apologies regardless though.
OK, there's a small chance that it was Iraqis on old American vehicles
with American guns, Pentagon said several times Saddam uses this kind of
disguise for his troops. But somehow Americans seem to be a bit more
likely to pull something like that.
Circuit Breaker
Zbigniew A. once enlightened a small village with this song:
> Circuit Breaker wrote:
>> Got a question for ya...
>>
>> I'm a curious bastard, would you mind telling me what the hell "XY#
>> BO#HE!" means???
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Circuit Breaker
>
> You wouldn't want to know...
>
>> (feels the laughter building far away)
>
> You're American, right? You'll be sorry when he tells ya.
Ay! I wasn't sorry for asking, but almost wish I'd've used lowercase
letters in the subject line and perhaps sent an e-mail instead of asking
publicly...
>
> Yours Virtually, Zbigniew A.
> (feels a long and winding OT thread building far away...)
Yep... sure enough, you can call 'em ;-) Wasn't my intent to start
anything - I just figured it was some sort of '1337-741k having to do
with "got root?" or something....
hmmm....
--
oops...
nino
Over the years I've grown to really appreciate your help and still do
so but I'm not sure that your views on this shooting are totally
accurate. I love the conspiracy theories myself but it could be an
accident. I'm not a soldier and have no way imagine what it would be
like in warfare but over the past few weeks, it appears that American
soldiers have killed just as many soldiers as the Iraqis have. This
isn't right but nonetheless it is a mistake. These soldiers are trained
as best they can be but you have to remember that the vast majority of
them are 18-24. I was a knucklehead at that age.
Just today the US bombed a Kurd-US convoy. Anyhow, accidents happen,
war stinks and people will be debating the whole French-German-Russia
vs. US-Britain-Spain stance for years. I've heard issues regarding both
sides and it is pretty obvious that Iraq has paid sums to France,
Germany, and Russia over the years and the theories abound about the US
interest and I'm sure there is truth in it all but this REALLY could be
an accident.
Whether the information gets to the individual holding the M-16 is
another thing to wonder. I'd be suspicious of anyone traveling out of
the country myself and sure wouldn't want to be the one inspecting the
cars (due to the car bombs).
Just the other day we shot an American inspecting an Iraqi tank
because we thought he was an Iraqi. These things happen in war and I
don't think I'd jump to conclusions.
In short the facts suggest that there are a lot of mistakes made and
I'd lean that way before believing conspiracy theories, although
oftentimes that is much more entertaining.
Whatever the reasons of the war, I have to believe that the world
would be more stable after the war. I just look at what happened to
Japan and Germany after WWII. I don't suggest that this is due to the
US but that "maybe" we really aren't interested in occupying and owning
anything but safety. Paranoid, maybe.
Uncle Theodore
> Aren't those the 2 girls who said in an interview that they have sex
> with each other several times a day? Gotta love 'em!
>
> http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/02/11/1044927596048.html
Yup. They also say they don't really care if their partners are males or
females. :-) I liked the way their producer promissed to cure the
Brittish public and the BBC reporter from paedophilia, as a former
doctor. There's a Russian saying that roughly translates to "Everybody
talks the most about their own illnesses" -- "U kogo chego bolit, tot o
tom i govorit"... :-) And that's given that Brittish had never seen the
Russian clip where Yulia masturbates before the camera, or the one for
"30 minutes" where they blow up a carouselle with dynomite. Anglo-Sacks
are so bo-o-o-oring!! :-)
I must say, the English translation of their lyrics is incredibly lame.
In Russian it's real poetry, in English it's the standard chewing gum
"You've left and it's raining". They will reperesent Russia on the next
Eurovision competition, I already have the mp3 of the song they're gonna
perform (tss! Big Secret!! :-)
Uncle Theodore
> Once upon a time, in a faraway land, a great soothsayer by the name of
> Zbigniew A. once enlightened a small village with this song:
>
>> Circuit Breaker wrote:
>>> Got a question for ya...
>>>
>>> I'm a curious bastard, would you mind telling me what the hell "XY#
>>> BO#HE!" means???
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Circuit Breaker
>>
>> You wouldn't want to know...
>>
>>> (feels the laughter building far away)
>>
>> You're American, right? You'll be sorry when he tells ya.
>
> Ay! I wasn't sorry for asking, but almost wish I'd've used lowercase
> letters in the subject line and perhaps sent an e-mail instead of asking
> publicly...
He-he... You wouldn't get an answer if you e-mailed me, though. The
address is real, but it's a spam trap, I go there only when I suddenly
wish to enlarge my cock by 12 inches. :-)
>> Yours Virtually, Zbigniew A.
>> (feels a long and winding OT thread building far away...)
>
> Yep... sure enough, you can call 'em ;-) Wasn't my intent to start
> anything - I just figured it was some sort of '1337-741k having to do
> with "got root?" or something....
>
> hmmm....
Shit happens, doesn't it? In Russian we say "Ask, but remember, not every
question leads to ultimate good", an equivalent of "Let the sleeping dog
lie" in English...
Peter T. Breuer
> war stinks and people will be debating the whole French-German-Russia
> vs. US-Britain-Spain stance for years. I've heard issues regarding both
> sides and it is pretty obvious that Iraq has paid sums to France,
> Germany, and Russia over the years and the theories abound about the US
Just get used to the idea that everyone in france germamy russia (AND
the uk) thinks that there is no excuse for starting a war against
someone who hasn't attacked you or anyone you know, no matter how nasty
evil smelly or whatever you think they are. And they particularly don't
like thinking of a reason afterwards.
The end does NOT justify the means. Never. Law is all about that.
> interest and I'm sure there is truth in it all but this REALLY could be
> an accident.
I agree. It's pretty certain that it is, unless some cowboy took it
upon themselves to believe the pentagons propaganda about iraq sending
"sums to france, germany, and russia over the years".
> Whether the information gets to the individual holding the M-16 is
> another thing to wonder. I'd be suspicious of anyone traveling out of
> the country myself and sure wouldn't want to be the one inspecting the
> cars (due to the car bombs).
I myself suspect that they fired on an important looking convoy
supposing it to contain important IRAQIS. But then I don't believe
those were M16 bullets - the reason why? Well, bullets get squashed
when they hit people. Bullets don't get looked at by reporters - not in
people anyway. Bullets are hard to measure to within a milimetre by
reporters. So reporters didn't do the measuring and didn't do the
surgery (who DID?). And the whole case rests on those being US bullets.
Whenever a case hangs on one thing, you ought to be pretty damn sure
about it. And I can easily imagine someone imagining it and someone
else broadcasting it. And personally I would have thought that the
person shot would have recognized who shot at him - he did go and
negotiate with them, after all. He should have more evidence than a
bullet. The americans wear white helmets and body armor. Iraqis don't.
Americans have huge humvees and tanks and planes. Iraqis don't. Etc.
> Just the other day we shot an American inspecting an Iraqi tank
You also shot up a british tank thinking it was iraqi. There are some
people in your army who need glasses.
Peter
Scotty
I heard they called about 10 of the Iraqi Government Saddam
impersonators into a special meeting. They were told there was
good news and bad news. The good news was that their glorious
president had survived the bombing of his bunker. The bad news
was that he had lost an arm...
Counterspy
>>snip<<
>
> But whose "no mistake"? And was it ordered or was it someones bright
> idea? I believe in the stupidity theory of human planning.
>
> Peter
Every knowledgeable person shoul read the document at this site:
http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:pakEMRlDO7sC:www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf++%22Bush+doctrine%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
for a clear understanding of why whis war came about and why it was
so widely opposed.
It is the American vision of the new world order and the real fight
will start after the war.
In the meantime, I and most of my compatriots wish an early end of
the war with as few
casualties as possible and the soldiers of nations involved return
safely home.
Counterspy
Uncle Theodore
> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
> >>snip<<
>>
>> But whose "no mistake"? And was it ordered or was it someones bright
>> idea? I believe in the stupidity theory of human planning.
>>
>> Peter
>
> Every knowledgeable person shoul read the document at this site:
> http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:pakEMRlDO7sC:www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf++%22Bush+doctrine%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
> for a clear understanding of why whis war came about and why it was so
> widely opposed.
> It is the American vision of the new world order and the real fight will
> start after the war.
Almost as good as Mein Kampf, much more destructive though. Imposes the
vision of Good and Evil held in the country that got rich by
systematically robbing other countries of their wealth, that never saw
enemy on its land and that forced its own people into perpetual idiocy by
destroying the national education system and overideologizing the
society. The country that kills its own people by hundreds every year and
invents new crimes every month to put people in prison for tens of years.
The country of hypocrits and laywers, big corporations and loudmouth
ochlocrats. The Ancient Rome of modern times, impotent but loud,
mindlessly agressive and populistic, where the voice of the crowd, "Bread
and a show!" covers the voice of reason. The Ancient Rome was destroyed
by a bunch of "barbarians", something for you to think about.
> In the meantime, I and most of my compatriots wish an early end of the
> war with as few
> casualties as possible and the soldiers of nations involved return
> safely home.
I wish Americans lose their fight as soon as possible, after the war or
in this war. It would be better for them and everybody else. That's the
view of 74% percent of MY compatriots, though my government "tends to
disagree" with them.
UT
--
Democracy is the political system where the most important issues are
decided by the least qualified people.
naci
> Almost as good as Mein Kampf, much more destructive though. Imposes the
> vision of Good and Evil held in the country that got rich by
> systematically robbing other countries of their wealth, that never saw
> enemy on its land and that forced its own people into perpetual idiocy by
> destroying the national education system and overideologizing the
> society.
The hyprocrite opens the orifice that passes for a mouth again......
Again I ask, if you have such serious concerns about the country that took
your sorry ass in and allowed you to work and enjoy its feedoms, something
your native country Russia has never enjoyed, why don't you make a
principled stand and just go home? Is russia so bad that you are willing to
suffer living in the USofA rather than lead a vodka fueled drunken
existance in utopian russia?
Uncle Fuckhead, I again ask, do you support the invasion of Chechnia by your
peace loving russian comrades? Remember don't lie, you have already stated
your position on this subject and it is not consistant with your present
stand.
patrick_darcy
dont forget :) me. dont forget to answer my question too
Tux
> Democracy is the political system where the most important issues are
> decided by the least qualified people.
But the US is NOT a democracy, it is a republic with a representative form
of government. Democracy is mob rule.
Uncle Theodore
> Uncle Theodore wrote:
>
>> Almost as good as Mein Kampf, much more destructive though. Imposes the
>> vision of Good and Evil held in the country that got rich by
>> systematically robbing other countries of their wealth, that never saw
>> enemy on its land and that forced its own people into perpetual idiocy
>> by destroying the national education system and overideologizing the
>> society.
>
>
>
> The hyprocrite opens the orifice that passes for a mouth again......
>
>
> Again I ask, if you have such serious concerns about the country that
> took your sorry ass in and allowed you to work and enjoy its feedoms,
> something your native country Russia has never enjoyed, why don't you
> make a principled stand and just go home? Is russia so bad that you are
> willing to suffer living in the USofA rather than lead a vodka fueled
> drunken existance in utopian russia?
I will go home on the day my current contract ends, that's August 19.
I will never set foot on American soil again and I will never be
associated with the crimes of your nation. Happy now? Enjoy your
imaginary freedoms yourself, idiot. I'm very sorry I had to come here to
teach your children think for themselves for a change. It's hopeless
anyway.
> Uncle Fuckhead, I again ask, do you support the invasion of Chechnia by
> your peace loving russian comrades? Remember don't lie, you have already
> stated your position on this subject and it is not consistant with your
> present stand.
If I answered you once, why do you ask again? Didn't understand the first
time around, moron? L-i-s-t-e-n. Ch-e-ch-n-i-a is a p-a-r-t of
R-u-s-s-i-a. It was g-i-v-e-n the f-r-e-e-d-o-m it w-a-n-t-e-d, the
freedom to hang adulturous wives and support i-n-t-e-r-n-a-t-i-o-n-a-l
t-e-r-r-o-r-i-s-m. Got it? No? Read again. T-h-e-y i-n-v-d-e-d
D-a-g-e-s-t-a-n, you moron, another p-a-r-t of R-u-s-s-i-a, and were
d-e-s-t-r-o-y-e-d, unlike Iraq that your murderous government i-v-i-d-e-d
for the heck of it.
I don't need to lie to you, fuckwit. You are unable to comprehend even
simplest words of truth, punk. I support Russian actions in Chechnia, go
hang yourself, moron, before the International Tribunal got to you and
your President.
UT
--
XY# BO#HE!
Uncle Theodore
> Uncle Fuckhead, I again ask, do you support the invasion of Chechnia by
> your peace loving russian comrades? Remember don't lie, you have already
> stated your position on this subject and it is not consistant with your
> present stand.
For those who's so much interested in current events in Chechnia, they
had a referendum at the end of March. The referendum was judged as
legitimate by international observers and claimed Checnia as a part of
Russia and also adopted the new Constitution of Checnia. Go fuck yourself
if you don't like it.
UT
--
XY# BO#HE!
Uncle Theodore
>> and while u are at it would u mind posting your cat proc file, so i see
>> how my computer compares with yours.
>>
>> thank u :)
>>
>>
> dont forget :) me. dont forget to answer my question too
Oh, boy! My main machine is an Athlon T-bird 1.4G, 768M RAM, I assembled
it myself over a year ago. What are you so much ineterested in?
kot@17:26:12~$ cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0
vendor_id : AuthenticAMD
cpu family : 6
model : 4
model name : AMD Athlon(tm) Processor
stepping : 4
cpu MHz : 1410.334
cache size : 256 KB
fdiv_bug : no
hlt_bug : no
f00f_bug : no
coma_bug : no
fpu : yes
fpu_exception : yes
cpuid level : 1
wp : yes
flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36 mmx fxsr syscall mmxext 3dnowext 3dnow
bogomips : 2811.49
I'm not so much of a hardware guy, never overclocked anything...
patrick_darcy
i was just wondering
Philip Callan
>> On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 21:57:12 -0500, patrick_darcy wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> and while u are at it would u mind posting your cat proc file, so i see
>>>> how my computer compares with yours.
>>>>
>>>> thank u :)
Oooh, I've been wanting to do this!
[philip@aphbox philip]$ cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0
vendor_id : GenuineIntel
cpu family : 15
model : 1
model name : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 1.80GHz
stepping : 2
cpu MHz : 1816.203
cache size : 256 KB
fdiv_bug : no
hlt_bug : no
f00f_bug : no
coma_bug : no
fpu : yes
fpu_exception : yes
cpuid level : 2
wp : yes
flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 sep mtrr pge mca cmov
pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm
bogomips : 3617.58
P4-Willamette 1.8Ghz on a AOpen AX45-V w/ 512MB DDR333
GeForce4-MX440 64MB DDR running NVIDIA 43.49 drivers
2.4.21-0.13mdkenterprise kernel Mandrake 9.1
Rich
> nino <ni...@purdue.edu> wrote:
>> war stinks and people will be debating the whole French-German-Russia
>> vs. US-Britain-Spain stance for years. I've heard issues regarding both
>> sides and it is pretty obvious that Iraq has paid sums to France,
>> Germany, and Russia over the years and the theories abound about the US
>
> Just get used to the idea that everyone in france germamy russia (AND
> the uk) thinks that there is no excuse for starting a war against
> someone who hasn't attacked you or anyone you know, no matter how nasty
> evil smelly or whatever you think they are. And they particularly don't
> like thinking of a reason afterwards.
Oh and you will thank us when its over
>
> The end does NOT justify the means. Never. Law is all about that.
>
>> interest and I'm sure there is truth in it all but this REALLY could be
>> an accident.
>
> I agree. It's pretty certain that it is, unless some cowboy took it
> upon themselves to believe the pentagons propaganda about iraq sending
> "sums to france, germany, and russia over the years".
>
>> Whether the information gets to the individual holding the M-16 is
>> another thing to wonder. I'd be suspicious of anyone traveling out of
>> the country myself and sure wouldn't want to be the one inspecting the
>> cars (due to the car bombs).
>
> I myself suspect that they fired on an important looking convoy
> supposing it to contain important IRAQIS. But then I don't believe
> those were M16 bullets - the reason why? Well, bullets get squashed
> when they hit people. Bullets don't get looked at by reporters - not in
> people anyway. Bullets are hard to measure to within a milimetre by
> reporters. So reporters didn't do the measuring and didn't do the
> surgery (who DID?). And the whole case rests on those being US bullets.
> Whenever a case hangs on one thing, you ought to be pretty damn sure
> about it. And I can easily imagine someone imagining it and someone
> else broadcasting it. And personally I would have thought that the
> person shot would have recognized who shot at him - he did go and
> negotiate with them, after all. He should have more evidence than a
> bullet. The americans wear white helmets and body armor. Iraqis don't.
> Americans have huge humvees and tanks and planes. Iraqis don't. Etc.
>
White helmets, since when? Hey, don't blame us for being better prepared
than the Iraqis, blame Sadamned. He's the idiot sending his robots to their
death, while he and his physco generals play chess in a 16 story bunker.
>> Just the other day we shot an American inspecting an Iraqi tank
>
> You also shot up a british tank thinking it was iraqi. There are some
> people in your army who need glasses.
They do they're called Night Vision Glasses!!!!
>
> Peter
--
"You can lead them to Linux
but you can't make them Think"
Remove DOT to email
Rich
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 10:36:31 -0500, Circuit Breaker wrote:
>
>> Got a question for ya...
>>
>> I'm a curious bastard, would you mind telling me what the hell "XY#
>> BO#HE!" means???
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Circuit Breaker
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> (feels the laughter building far away)
>
> If you have to ask. On February 25 Russian group TATU was performing live
> on NBC's "Tonight Show" with Jay Leno (I have a clip of that performance
> as a proof if you wonder). The girls (Lena and Yulia) were in white
> T-shirts with big black Russian letters, "XY# BO#HE". "XY#" means "Dick",
> a very derogatory term, "BO#HA" is "War". I use "#" to denote a Russian
> letter that is pronounced as "i" in "poison". Now you know.
>
> I don't feel like talking about that right now (as well as about the
> speed of my computer to patrick). Today Americans opened fire on Russian
> diplomates leaving Baghdad, three Embassy workers are wounded. It was no
> mistake in case you wonder. It's four and a half months until my current
> contract ends and I can go home to Russia. I can't wait.
>
> UT
Listen UT, I respect you and you have helped me many times. I'm an American
(US) and feel strong about my support for this war and I have my reasons,
which I will not go into. If it was the US that fired on that convoy
believe me they could have killed everyone in it without much trouble. It's
my hope everyone survives and recovers soon from their wounds.
Rich
Timbuk
> OK, there's a small chance that it was Iraqis on old American vehicles
> with American guns, Pentagon said several times Saddam uses this kind of
> disguise for his troops. But somehow Americans seem to be a bit more
> likely to pull something like that.
For what purpose?
Timbuk
Rich
Why? The American Troops can go anywhere they want, When they want. Why
would they disguise themselves? Have you heard of the A-1 Abrams Tank?
Nothing the Iraqis have can harm it except of course the Anti Tank Round
the RUSSIAN'S SOLD THEM!!!
Peter T. Breuer
> Timbuk wrote:
>> Uncle Theodore wrote:
>>> OK, there's a small chance that it was Iraqis on old American vehicles
>>> with American guns, Pentagon said several times Saddam uses this kind of
>>> disguise for his troops. But somehow Americans seem to be a bit more
>>> likely to pull something like that.
>>
>> For what purpose?
> Why?
For what purpose WHY? What do you mean?
> The American Troops can go anywhere they want, When they want. Why
> would they disguise themselves?
Has anybody said they disguised themselves? Are you taking lessons in
inflation too? Can anybody here read (apart from UT and me)? The
assertion is that americans in jeeps (generic word for green vehicles
with large wheels and no or canvas top) shot at russian convoy. The
evidence is that the the bullets are of american rifle caliber, not
used by iraqis.
Fine. Now one checks the evidence and seeks more.
As to a reason why americans might be in jeeps in Iraq and shooting at
people in official looking convoys ... weelll.
> Have you heard of the A-1 Abrams Tank?
Wasn't that M-1?
> Nothing the Iraqis have can harm it except of course the Anti Tank Round
> the RUSSIAN'S SOLD THEM!!!
Uh, plenty can harm it. Try letting it run over a land mine and see how
well the people inside cook ... anyway, I am not prepared to believe
that the CIA or the specials or whoever deliberately shot at russians.
I am prepared to believe they did it by the standard method - through
monumental cock-up.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> White helmets, since when? Hey, don't blame us for being better prepared
All the US troops I have seen on TV have had white helmets. I'm looking
at pix of them wandering around the republican palace now. What color
do you think it is? I'm perplexed.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
>> the uk) thinks that there is no excuse for starting a war against
>> someone who hasn't attacked you or anyone you know, no matter how nasty
>> evil smelly or whatever you think they are. And they particularly don't
>> like thinking of a reason afterwards.
> Oh and you will thank us when its over
No - we won't. The people who stand to gain from the result will thank
you, but the people who stand to lose by the /process/ will not. And
that includes you -- ends do not justify means. You cannot hang a
murderer without evidence or process of law. Anyway ..
.. this makes a laughing stock of the Gun lobby in the USA. Every
Iraqi has a gun, and it protects them from the government not at all,
nor from any invading army.
Peter
Rich
> Rich <drv.t...@verizondot.net> wrote:
>> Timbuk wrote:
>>> Uncle Theodore wrote:
>>>> OK, there's a small chance that it was Iraqis on old American vehicles
>>>> with American guns, Pentagon said several times Saddam uses this kind
>>>> of disguise for his troops. But somehow Americans seem to be a bit more
>>>> likely to pull something like that.
>>>
>>> For what purpose?
>
>> Why?
>
> For what purpose WHY? What do you mean?
>
>> The American Troops can go anywhere they want, When they want. Why
>> would they disguise themselves?
>
> Has anybody said they disguised themselves? Are you taking lessons in
> inflation too? Can anybody here read (apart from UT and me)? The
> assertion is that americans in jeeps (generic word for green vehicles
> with large wheels and no or canvas top) shot at russian convoy. The
> evidence is that the the bullets are of american rifle caliber, not
> used by iraqis.
Looks like I miss read that.
>
> Fine. Now one checks the evidence and seeks more.
>
> As to a reason why americans might be in jeeps in Iraq and shooting at
> people in official looking convoys ... weelll.
>
>> Have you heard of the A-1 Abrams Tank?
>
> Wasn't that M-1?
That was the old model, the new one is the M1A1 known to most as the A1. The
new model is the M1A2.
M1A1 link
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m1.htm
>
>> Nothing the Iraqis have can harm it except of course the Anti Tank Round
>> the RUSSIAN'S SOLD THEM!!!
>
> Uh, plenty can harm it. Try letting it run over a land mine and see how
> well the people inside cook ... anyway, I am not prepared to believe
> that the CIA or the specials or whoever deliberately shot at russians.
> I am prepared to believe they did it by the standard method - through
> monumental cock-up.
Not really, it's belly is fortified and unlike Russian tanks the crew is
protected in an armored shell and it usually travels with a mine sweeping
M1A1. Like most tanks the tracks are its weakest link.
If the US did shoot at the Russians, they should feel lucky to be alive. If
the group was wounded then its likely it was Iraq. Those idiots couldnt hit
a bulls eye 3' from the end of a barrel.
Rich
> Rich <drv.t...@verizondot.net> wrote:
>> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>>> Just get used to the idea that everyone in france germamy russia (AND
>>> the uk) thinks that there is no excuse for starting a war against
>>> someone who hasn't attacked you or anyone you know, no matter how nasty
>>> evil smelly or whatever you think they are. And they particularly don't
>>> like thinking of a reason afterwards.
>
>> Oh and you will thank us when its over
>
> No - we won't. The people who stand to gain from the result will thank
> you, but the people who stand to lose by the /process/ will not. And
> that includes you -- ends do not justify means. You cannot hang a
> murderer without evidence or process of law. Anyway ..
Well it wont be France, Germany and Russia, thats a givin.
Believe Kuwait and the Iraq people would have a good argument. Chemical Ali
got his didnt he. If the Butcher of Baghdad was thrown to the wolfs how
long do you think he would last?
>
> .. this makes a laughing stock of the Gun lobby in the USA. Every
> Iraqi has a gun, and it protects them from the government not at all,
> nor from any invading army.
What gun lobby? I think Sadamn saw to the gun problem long ago. Only the
thugs on his payroll have them.
Rich
Rich
Believe its Sand brown. The UN are the only ones that wear white. Easier to
pick them off!
Rich
Uncle Theodore
> Listen UT, I respect you and you have helped me many times. I'm an
> American (US) and feel strong about my support for this war and I have
> my reasons, which I will not go into. If it was the US that fired on
> that convoy believe me they could have killed everyone in it without
> much trouble. It's my hope everyone survives and recovers soon from
> their wounds.
To kill Russian diplomats is bad politics. To shoot at Russian diplomats,
to show who's the boss and what will happen to other peeps who won't help
Yanks achieve world domination, is good politics. It's just like yelling
and spitting at somebody you can't fight yet. And the fact that whoever
did it didn't finish the job, tells that to show off *was* the original
goal.
As you can probably see, I feel strongly about this war too. So? What
should I listen to?
Circuit Breaker
The desktop:
[cb@ip-one cb]$ cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0
vendor_id : AuthenticAMD
cpu family : 5
model : 8
model name : AMD-K6(tm) 3D processor
stepping : 12
cpu MHz : 350.797 <-- 300MHz chip. Couldn't get 400 out of it.
cache size : 64 KB
cheque size : 3 by 6
credit size : nul
fdiv_bug : no
love_bug : yes
hlt_bug : no
f00f_bug : no
coma_bug : no
bed_bug : no
fpu : yes
fpu_exception : yes
cpuid level : 1 - CPU cannot drink until 21
wp : yes
flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr mce cx8 pge
mmx syscall 3dnow k6_mtrr
banners : star-spangled
bogomips : 699.59 <-- ;-)
====================================
The laptop:
[cb@ip-two cb]$ cat /proc/cpuinfo
processor : 0
vendor_id : GenuineIntel
cpu family : 6
model : 8
model name : Cindy Crawford
CPU model name : Pentium III (Coppermine)
stepping : 10
cpu MHz : 697.896
cache size : 256 KB
cheque size : nul
credit size : nul
fdiv_bug : no
hlt_bug : no
love_bug : yes
f00f_bug : no
coma_bug : no
bed_bug : no
fpu : yes
fpu_exception : yes
cpuid level : 2 - CPU cannot drink until 21
wp : yes
flags : fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8
sep mtrr pge mca cmov pat pse36
mmx fxsr sse
bogomips : 1392.64
--
All views expressed in this message are the opinions of the author and
do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of any business or
organization with which this idiot may be affiliated.
Uncle Theodore
> I don't feel like talking about that right now (as well as about the
> speed of my computer to patrick). Today Americans opened fire on Russian
> diplomates leaving Baghdad, three Embassy workers are wounded. It was no
> mistake in case you wonder. It's four and a half months until my current
> contract ends and I can go home to Russia. I can't wait.
>
> UT
Well, to finish off the shooting business, the Russian Ambassador to Iraq
(wounded too, but not seriously) said today that it was *Americans* who
*deliberately* fired on the Russian diplomats several times, wounded several
people and tried to serach the vehicles (unsuccessfully). He was there, he
isn't a reporter or some other unreliable source, he's a government
official, so I believe him. Well, that should've been expected. Thank
you, the Knights of American Freedom (tm). You have certainly shown us
your wonderful values.
UT
--
XY# BO#HE!
Rich
> To kill Russian diplomats is bad politics. To shoot at Russian diplomats,
> to show who's the boss and what will happen to other peeps who won't help
> Yanks achieve world domination, is good politics. It's just like yelling
> and spitting at somebody you can't fight yet. And the fact that whoever
> did it didn't finish the job, tells that to show off *was* the original
> goal.
>
> As you can probably see, I feel strongly about this war too. So? What
> should I listen to?
>
> Good Luck,
> UT
>
> --
> XY# BO#HE!
Well before I make any conclusions, I would like to read, see or hear more
on the situation. One thing is for sure, when one is in a war zone you're
best to expect the unexpected. Diplomatic Immunity does not exempt one from
stopping. Why were these guys still there? It was my understanding all
diplomats had left Baghdad the day before the bombs started dropping?
Peter T. Breuer
> On Mon, 07 Apr 2003 00:49:44 -0500, Rich wrote:
>> Listen UT, I respect you and you have helped me many times. I'm an
>> American (US) and feel strong about my support for this war and I have
>> my reasons, which I will not go into. If it was the US that fired on
>> that convoy believe me they could have killed everyone in it without
>> much trouble. It's my hope everyone survives and recovers soon from
>> their wounds.
> To kill Russian diplomats is bad politics. To shoot at Russian diplomats,
> to show who's the boss and what will happen to other peeps who won't help
> Yanks achieve world domination, is good politics. It's just like yelling
You are certanly mistaken about this. A bullet passed between driver
and ambassador. Two bullets hit one driver in the stomach. If they
didn't try and kill the diplomat, they came too dangerously close for
me to believe they had orders not to. If they did try and kill the
diplomat, they missed with 1000 bullets and hit with three, which
is very very bad shooting, considering they don't seem to have trouble
hitting cars approaching them in general. Therefore any sane person
would conclude there were no orders to kill and no orders not to kill.
Ergo there were no orders.
> and spitting at somebody you can't fight yet. And the fact that whoever
> did it didn't finish the job, tells that to show off *was* the original
> goal.
This is nonsense. The cia does not do that (executive order). The marines
do not do that (they're ordinary soldiers and they speak to the press).
Special services forces DO do that, but not against a russian diplomat
because he is not a terrorist, and that's the only exception for the
executive order against assassinations. The president would have to
issue a finding that they can shoot at the diplomat. And I don't
believe he has!
Only bush has ever issued findings allowing any sort of assassination
in recent decades - and his order is published. It does not include
russian diplomats.
> As you can probably see, I feel strongly about this war too. So? What
> should I listen to?
Sense. There is no sense in beieving in consiracy theories until
every other avenue is exhausted. You should know perfectly well that
the US publishes its secrets everywhere - if anyone gave an order to
shoot at a russian diplomat it would be all over west point, the
nearest barracks bar, and then the newspapers in short order.
Peter
nino
HEY UT, this just released... Not saying that we did the right thing
but it DOES LOOK SUSPICIOUS and it is war. Check once, shoot, then
check again :-) If 2 Iraqi vehicles were leading, I'd be suspicious too
and especially if they were firing, and that's from a Russian. You have
to believe some of the flack is political and that none of us are ever
going to find out the truth from reading about it.
Before leaving Iraq, Titorenko had told the Saudi-owned Al-Arabiya
satellite channel, "The economic counselor tried to signal to let them
know we were foreigners but they fired at him and now he is suffering
wounds to the head."
A Rossia television journalist who was in the convoy, Alexander Minakov,
said Sunday that it was caught in crossfire while passing Iraqi
positions near Baghdad's outskirts and might have been hit by both U.S.
and Iraqi forces.
Minakov gave a somewhat different account Monday, saying on Rossia that
"it was clear, concrete fire at the cars." However, he also said that
two Iraqi vehicles were in front of the convoy, and reiterated that
there was firing from both sides.
A Foreign Ministry spokesman said Russia had not yet received official
information from either the United States or the Iraqis.
Peter T. Breuer
> Well, to finish off the shooting business, the Russian Ambassador to Iraq
> (wounded too, but not seriously) said today that it was *Americans* who
Show where the account is published. How come the reporters with this
convoy didn't mention that they were fired on by "americans who tried
(unsuccessfully) to search the vehicles"? Why do we wait for the
ambassador (who was not wounded, but hurt by flying glass in the reports
I've seen) to speak? What stopped him or his party speaking yesterday?
And how can one TRY to search a vehicle, and do it unsuccessfully? I
can believe that they DIDN'T search the vehicle, but that they wished
to, and were refused. I can further believe that the convoy refused to
stop and be searched, and that therefore the americans fired on it -
obviously they suspected SH was in the boot.
> *deliberately* fired on the Russian diplomats several times, wounded several
And WAS SH in the boot?
> people and tried to serach the vehicles (unsuccessfully). He was there, he
> isn't a reporter or some other unreliable source, he's a government
> official, so I believe him. Well, that should've been expected. Thank
And what was his reason for not stopping and being searched? He doesn't
have diplomatic immunity for the americans. He should have stopped, and
called Putin on the cell phone and Putin shoudl have called Bush and
Bush should have called the soldiers on the ground and told them to let
him through. Obviously the soldiers were told to stop and search the
convoy.
> you, the Knights of American Freedom (tm). You have certainly shown us
> your wonderful values.
I don't get your point of view. The Russian ambassador has no
particular right to not be searched by an invading army, as far as I
know (and I may be wrong). If HE attempts to force his way through a
roadblock, he may well be fired upon! It sounds like he failed to use
diplomacy, exactly when he should have. I suspect that either his ego
refused to let himself be searched, or he had something to protect,
or his cell phone to moscow was not working. He obviously placed his
life at risk knowing that the soldiers would NOT kill him. Simply
a poker game. Both sides pushed. I think the ambassador won. They
shot the driver. Who drove out? I bet it was the ambassador.
Peter
Uncle Theodore
> Uncle Theodore <unclet...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, to finish off the shooting business, the Russian Ambassador to
>> Iraq (wounded too, but not seriously) said today that it was
>> *Americans* who
>
> Show where the account is published. How come the reporters with this
> convoy didn't mention that they were fired on by "americans who tried
> (unsuccessfully) to search the vehicles"? Why do we wait for the
> ambassador (who was not wounded, but hurt by flying glass in the reports
> I've seen) to speak? What stopped him or his party speaking yesterday?
I tried to find an English source, I read Russian press, obviously...
> And how can one TRY to search a vehicle, and do it unsuccessfully? I can
> believe that they DIDN'T search the vehicle, but that they wished to,
> and were refused. I can further believe that the convoy refused to stop
> and be searched, and that therefore the americans fired on it -
> obviously they suspected SH was in the boot.
>
>> *deliberately* fired on the Russian diplomats several times, wounded
>> several
>
> And WAS SH in the boot?
How should I know? :-)
Hm... You gave me something to think about. I'm not a big fan of the
Russian government, but sometimes they pull funniest tricks (like with
the Kosovo airport last time Yanks showed their love of somebody else's
freedom). What exactly prompted Titorenko to leave Baghdad at this
particular time, leaving 12 Embassy workers behing? If he stole SH from
under Yankee's noses, it's huge! Such a slap on Bushes face! And it's the
same day Condoleeza came to Putin with peace offerings! I like my people,
we are smart! :-)
Well. On the other hand, what on Earth would Putin need Saddam for? And
if Yanks found SH on board a Russian diplomatic car, that would be a big
scandal in the family...
Teddy
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 20:23:16 -0500, Counterspy wrote:
>
>> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>> >>snip<<
>>>
>>> But whose "no mistake"? And was it ordered or was it someones bright
>>> idea? I believe in the stupidity theory of human planning.
>>>
>>> Peter
>>
>> Every knowledgeable person shoul read the document at this site:
>>
http://www.google.ca/search?q=cache:pakEMRlDO7sC:www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.pdf++%22Bush+doctrine%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
>> for a clear understanding of why whis war came about and why it was so
>> widely opposed.
>> It is the American vision of the new world order and the real fight will
>> start after the war.
>
> Almost as good as Mein Kampf, much more destructive though. Imposes the
> vision of Good and Evil held in the country that got rich by
> systematically robbing other countries of their wealth, that never saw
> enemy on its land and that forced its own people into perpetual idiocy by
> destroying the national education system and overideologizing the
> society. The country that kills its own people by hundreds every year and
> invents new crimes every month to put people in prison for tens of years.
> The country of hypocrits and laywers, big corporations and loudmouth
> ochlocrats. The Ancient Rome of modern times, impotent but loud,
> mindlessly agressive and populistic, where the voice of the crowd, "Bread
> and a show!" covers the voice of reason. The Ancient Rome was destroyed
> by a bunch of "barbarians", something for you to think about.
>
>> In the meantime, I and most of my compatriots wish an early end of the
>> war with as few
>> casualties as possible and the soldiers of nations involved return
>> safely home.
>
> I wish Americans lose their fight as soon as possible, after the war or
> in this war. It would be better for them and everybody else. That's the
> view of 74% percent of MY compatriots, though my government "tends to
> disagree" with them.
>
>
> UT
>
> --
> Democracy is the political system where the most important issues are
> decided by the least qualified people.
UT, the Russians have NEVER been worried about honoring a
contract or UN embargos(selling Iraq weapons for the last
12 years). So, don't worry about your 4 1/2 month contract.
Leave NOW.
Uncle Theodore
>
> UT, the Russians have NEVER been worried about honoring a contract or UN
> embargos(selling Iraq weapons for the last 12 years).
And you can prove it? Surely your George the Conqueror honored the UN
resolutions by killing Iraqi children, the proof is on TV.
> So, don't worry
> about your 4 1/2 month contract. Leave NOW.
As soon as you get your burning asses from Iraq.
UT
--
XY# BO#HE!
Peter T. Breuer
> Well. On the other hand, what on Earth would Putin need Saddam for? And
> if Yanks found SH on board a Russian diplomatic car, that would be a big
> scandal in the family...
Some details are beginning to filter out. The americans say that they
were expecting the convoy on highway 10 at midday, according to the
route agreed, and they had a list of the occupants, all by
prearrangement, and had alerted their people along the planned route.
But they say the convoy never showed up on highway 10. Apparently they
took some more northerly route out. Possibly detouring to avoid
something, they don't know.
Anyway, initial reports from command hq that the americans had nobody
in the area were because they thought the russians were talking about
highway 10. They did have a whole division (or whatever a large
military formation is called) further north, coming into the city and
"destroying" one of the iraqi mechanized divisions that had previously
not been touched. That sounds just like what the russian convoy ran
into.
As to the rest of the searching or not searching, there is nothing more
on that yet. To me it sounds like there was confusion all round, and
quite possibly suspicious american soldiers plus one irate russian
ambassador, plus lots of scared people, a recipe for all kinds of
misinterpretations.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>> Rich <drv.t...@verizondot.net> wrote:
>> Has anybody said they disguised themselves? Are you taking lessons in
>> inflation too? Can anybody here read (apart from UT and me)? The
>> assertion is that americans in jeeps (generic word for green vehicles
>> with large wheels and no or canvas top) shot at russian convoy. The
>> evidence is that the the bullets are of american rifle caliber, not
>> used by iraqis.
> Looks like I miss read that.
Who's the miss? I suspect you misread it. Anyway, here's the latest
from the bbc ..
Russian television journalist Alexander Minakov, who was with them,
said they were passing Iraqi positions on the edge of the city when
they came under heavy fire.
He said the Iraqis were shelled by coalition forces and returned
fire.
Russian media are reporting that two bullets from the stomach of one
victim came from an M-16 semi-automatic assault rifle, used by US
marines.
US Central Command in Qatar said "initial reports" indicated there
were no US or British troops nearby.
But in Washington, General Peter Pace, deputy head of the Joint
Chiefs of Staff, said the Pentagon was investigating.
"There was no reporting by any ground unit of the coalition of any
kind of contact" with the motorcade, he said.
Apparently, if I read the bbc report right, the driver was the only one
hit, and the only one operated on, and that was by iraqis. If he was
driving, how was he hit in the stomach? He can't have been driving at
the time, surely.
Russian diplomats injured as they left Baghdad on Sunday have
resumed their journey to Syria, leaving two people behind at a
hospital in the city of Falluja.
One of them, said to be a driver, has been operated on by Iraqi
surgeons.
The other has stayed to help him, as a translator.
I deduce the bullet type was determined through the iraqis. I doubt the
/surgeons/ diagnosed the bullet. There would be some suspicion about the
veracity of the report, therefore. Could be true. Could be false.
Unless your spies know something our spies don't, it looks like a
simple case of mass confusion ;).
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> I deduce the bullet type was determined through the iraqis. I doubt the
> /surgeons/ diagnosed the bullet. There would be some suspicion about the
> veracity of the report, therefore. Could be true. Could be false.
Cnn is now passing to the equivocal. They don't know. I guess it will
turn out to have been a firefight between advanced special forces and
iraqis, while the special forces were trying to take out iraqi artillery
by sneaking up close to them (as spotters?), while long distance
artillery shelled them.
There were conflicting reports about how many people were hurt, who
was responsible, and whether the convoy was attacked or accidentally
caught in crossfire between Iraqi and coalition troops.
U.S. Central Command said the convoy was attacked in territory
controlled by the Iraqi government, and that no coalition forces were
operating in the area at the time of the incident.
U.S. Army officials with the 3-7th Cavalry said coalition soldiers
did not fire on the convoy and that the shooters were probably from
Saddam Fedayeen, fighters loyal to Saddam Hussein.
A journalist traveling in the convoy, however, reported they were
caught in crossfire.
Alexander Minakov, who works with Rossiya TV (formerly RTR), said in
a telephone report that he was in one of eight cars that set off from
Baghdad at 11:30 a.m. (3:30 a.m. ET), bound for the Syrian border.
The vehicles carried 25 Russian diplomats, including Russia's
ambassador to Iraq, and journalists who were trying to flee the
country.
The journalists included a three-man crew from Rossiya, a crew from
First Channel (ORT), and a crew from TVS.
Around noon, about 30 km outside the capital, as the convoy passed a
group of Iraqi tanks and artillery, U.S. forces opened fire, Minakov
said.
An Iraqi tank about 150 meters from the convoy was hit, and shells
exploded near the convoy. The journalists heard automatic fire, he
said.
The Iraqis then responded with their own fire, and the Russian convoy
was caught in the middle, Minakov said.
A bullet pierced the window of Ambassador Vladimir Titorenko's car,
passing between him and the driver, he said. Three people were
wounded -- one with a "pretty serious" stomach wound, Minakov said.
But the Russian Foreign Ministry said there were five injuries, all
of them minor, including Titorenko's, a spokesman said.
In a statement, U.S. Central Command said initial reports revealed no
coalition forces operating in the area at the time.
"Based on the reported location, the incident is believed to have
taken place in territory controlled by the Iraqi regime," Central
Command said. "The inquiry into this incident continues and more
details will be made available as soon as possible."
Peter T. Breuer
> Well. On the other hand, what on Earth would Putin need Saddam for? And
> if Yanks found SH on board a Russian diplomatic car, that would be a big
> scandal in the family...
Nobody could possibly distinguish SH from about 1 million other iraqi
men, as far as I can see. Do the babies have moustaches too? Exactly
how cheap is a body double in iraq?
Well.. OK, that's over the top. What I mean is that the american
soldiers don't speak russian or iraqi, so one person in the car who
doesn't speak english and has a russian passport and all-of-a-sudden no
moustache might very well be anyone, just anyone. Would anyone
recognize SH without a moustache and a palace? Would he recognize
himself ...
Peter
Circuit Breaker
Peter T. Breuer once enlightened a small village with this song:
> on that yet. To me it sounds like there was confusion all round, and
> quite possibly suspicious american soldiers plus one irate russian
> ambassador, plus lots of scared people, a recipe for all kinds of
> misinterpretations.
>
> Peter
I think you forgot the oregano and basil.
Rich
> Teddy <t.t....@nospam.charter.net> wrote:
>> UT, the Russians have NEVER been worried about honoring a
>> contract or UN embargos(selling Iraq weapons for the last
>
> There's nothing wrong with selling things to Iraq. Including weapons,
> as far as I know! If you think there is, why don't you tell us what it
> is? Remember that _weapons of mass destruction_ are what the UN forbad
> Iraq to have. And remember that the US doesn't seem to want to obey the
> will of the UN ...
I believe there is Peter. Don't believe there is a Weapons for Food clause
in any resolution drawn up for Iraq.
>
>> 12 years). So, don't worry about your 4 1/2 month contract.
>> Leave NOW.
That wasn't very nice! This whole mess with the Russian Embassy needs
further investigation. Until then its all speculation and doubt the truth
will ever come out. What is ridiculous is that Information Ministry
claiming the US is not in Baghdad and for his rag tag units to continue
fighting. Give up and end the thing already instead of continuing the
suffering.
Rich
--
"You can lead them to Linux
but you can't make them Think"
Remove DOT to email
Rich
>
>> Looks like I miss read that.
>
> Who's the miss? I suspect you misread it. Anyway, here's the latest
> from the bbc ..
Geeez Peter, would you like me to go back to all your posts and pick out all
your mistakes and typos? Other than that good post.
Its pretty obvious to me this is an unfortunate accident and doubt the true
story will ever come out. The fact most troops have had little sleep, itchy
trigger fingers, snipers and the enemy shedding their uniforms and fighting
in civilian clothes may have something to do with it. How would you, UT or
I react to any of the situations that have taken place so far in Iraq? Put
youself in any situation in Iraq and tell me you would not make a mistake
or bad decision?
Peter T. Breuer
> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>>> Looks like I miss read that.
>>
>> Who's the miss? I suspect you misread it. Anyway, here's the latest
>> from the bbc ..
> Geeez Peter, would you like me to go back to all your posts and pick out all
> your mistakes and typos? Other than that good post.
It's clearly not a typo :-)! Perhaps you had "read" on the brain ;0.
> Its pretty obvious to me this is an unfortunate accident and doubt the true
Yeah, fingers slipped.
> story will ever come out. The fact most troops have had little sleep, itchy
> trigger fingers, snipers and the enemy shedding their uniforms and fighting
> in civilian clothes may have something to do with it. How would you, UT or
> I react to any of the situations that have taken place so far in Iraq? Put
> youself in any situation in Iraq and tell me you would not make a mistake
> or bad decision?
I agree. I doubt there is any sinister intent. Merely confusion and
conflict, and people shooting at each other ...
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>> Teddy <t.t....@nospam.charter.net> wrote:
>>> UT, the Russians have NEVER been worried about honoring a
>>> contract or UN embargos(selling Iraq weapons for the last
>>
>> There's nothing wrong with selling things to Iraq. Including weapons,
>> as far as I know! If you think there is, why don't you tell us what it
>> is? Remember that _weapons of mass destruction_ are what the UN forbad
>> Iraq to have. And remember that the US doesn't seem to want to obey the
>> will of the UN ...
> I believe there is Peter. Don't believe there is a Weapons for Food clause
> in any resolution drawn up for Iraq.
They can buy anything that's not proscribed and I believe that only
things that can be used to make WMD are on the list. Pistols and
handguns and kalashnikovs and helicopters and .. are not. I'm willing
to be corrected on this, so perhaps you'll point me to your source?
Here's what the CIA factbook says:
In August 1990 Iraq seized Kuwait, but was expelled by US-led, UN
coalition forces during January-February 1991. The victors did not
occupy Iraq, however, thus allowing the regime to stay in control.
Following Kuwait's liberation, the UN Security Council (UNSC)
required Iraq to scrap all weapons of mass destruction and
long-range missiles and to allow UN verification inspections. UN
trade sanctions remain in effect due to incomplete Iraqi compliance
with relevant UNSC resolutions.
...
Iraq's seizure of Kuwait in August 1990, subsequent international
economic sanctions, and damage from military action by an
international coalition beginning in January 1991 drastically
reduced economic activity. Although government policies supporting
large military and internal security forces and allocating resources
to key supporters of the regime have hurt the economy,
implementation of the UN's oil-for-food program in December 1996 has
helped improve conditions for the average Iraqi citizen. For the
first six, six-month phases of the program, Iraq was allowed to
export limited amounts of oil in exchange for food, medicine, and
some infrastructure spare parts. In December 1999 the UN Security
Council authorized Iraq to export under the program as much oil as
required to meet humanitarian needs.
So any proscription would have to be under the heading "trade
sanctions". What can google tell us? ...
# August 6, 1990: United Nations Security Council passes Resolution
661, placing sanctions on Iraq to "restore the authority of the
legitimate government of Kuwait."
(For U.N. resolutions, see:
gopher://gopher.undp.org/11/undocs/scd/scouncil)
# April 3, 1991: U.N. Security Council passes Resolution 687 which
states that upon "the completion by Iraq of all actions contemplated
in" specific paragraphs of the resolution, "the prohibitions against
financial transactions ... shall have no further force or effect."
The paragraphs cited have to do with weapons inspections. Other
paragraphs in the resolution have to do with "return of all Kuwaiti
property seized by Iraq" and Iraqi liability for losses and damage
resulting from Iraq's occupation of Kuwait.
# April 5, 1991: U.N. Security Council passes Resolution 688 that
"demands that Iraq" end its repression "of all Iraqi citizens."
...
So I think it's 661 you mean. But they exited iraq, so I don't see how
those sanctions can still be valid. Oh well.
You can look up resolution 661 for yourself.
>>> 12 years). So, don't worry about your 4 1/2 month contract.
>>> Leave NOW.
> That wasn't very nice! This whole mess with the Russian Embassy needs
> further investigation. Until then its all speculation and doubt the truth
> will ever come out. What is ridiculous is that Information Ministry
> claiming the US is not in Baghdad and for his rag tag units to continue
> fighting. Give up and end the thing already instead of continuing the
> suffering.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> Once upon a time, in a faraway land, a great soothsayer by the name of
> Peter T. Breuer once enlightened a small village with this song:
>> on that yet. To me it sounds like there was confusion all round, and
>> quite possibly suspicious american soldiers plus one irate russian
>> ambassador, plus lots of scared people, a recipe for all kinds of
>> misinterpretations.
> I think you forgot the oregano and basil.
That reminds me - is there a shorter straw that you can draw than being
appointed ambassador to Iraq?
Don't answer that. I guess ambassador to Wales would beat it. CLosely
followed by Upper Gondwanaland and the Pangeaen Islands.
Peter
Rich
> Rich <drv.t...@verizondot.net> wrote:
>> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>>> There's nothing wrong with selling things to Iraq. Including weapons,
>>> as far as I know! If you think there is, why don't you tell us what it
>>> is? Remember that _weapons of mass destruction_ are what the UN forbad
>>> Iraq to have. And remember that the US doesn't seem to want to obey the
>>> will of the UN ...
>
>> I believe there is Peter. Don't believe there is a Weapons for Food
>> clause in any resolution drawn up for Iraq.
>
> They can buy anything that's not proscribed and I believe that only
> things that can be used to make WMD are on the list. Pistols and
> handguns and kalashnikovs and helicopters and .. are not. I'm willing
> to be corrected on this, so perhaps you'll point me to your source?
> Peter
Peter looks like you may be right about the Guns for Food program. I did go
and search for any kind of Arms other than the ones sited in the UN
Resolutions, 17 I believe, I'm sure you will correct me if wrong, and I
couldn't find anything other than the WMD issue.
I could have sworn there was some kind of mention about other weapons in
there. Guess then you could turn it into a moral issue. But since when has
an Arms Dealer had any morals, except money. The next argument could be the
US is guilty of the same moral issues with the US selling Iraq chemicals
during the Iran war. Hoping we learned are lessons on that huge mistake.
I could go into how many countries like France, Germany, Russia, and China
are guilty of the same behavior but I won't.
My hope first, is a fast end to the war, second, once the WMD is found and I
believe it will be, its destroyed, and third, the people in Iraq will have
some sort of freedoms whether it's a democracy or whatever. Its sad to
think that the third highest oil producing country in the world is
squandering its wealth on WMD, 50+ Presidential Palaces and Sadamns
fanatical ideas of Middle East Domination, while the masses are forced to
live in poverty and tortured if they don't agree. At least I can walk down
the street in America and if I want, (and I would not ) wave a banner,
?Bush is an Idiot.?
I do believe the US and UK will do what is right and let the Iraqis run
their county and get humanitarian aid to them asap. God, help us if the UN
has anything to do with it. People will starve while the UN sits in
committee arguing who should get help. France would probably veto it.
Just some thoughts on a contriversal subject.
Circuit Breaker
Peter T. Breuer once enlightened a small village with this song:
> Apparently, if I read the bbc report right, the driver was the only one
> hit, and the only one operated on, and that was by iraqis. If he was
> driving, how was he hit in the stomach? He can't have been driving at
> the time, surely.
Ricochet? Possible, yes. Likely? Who knows?
> Unless your spies know something our spies don't, it looks like a simple
> case of mass confusion ;).
Agreed.
> Peter
Circuit
Peter T. Breuer
> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>> Rich <drv.t...@verizondot.net> wrote:
>>> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>>>> There's nothing wrong with selling things to Iraq. Including weapons,
>>>> as far as I know! If you think there is, why don't you tell us what it
>>>> is? Remember that _weapons of mass destruction_ are what the UN forbad
>>>> Iraq to have. And remember that the US doesn't seem to want to obey the
>>>> will of the UN ...
>>
>>> I believe there is Peter. Don't believe there is a Weapons for Food
>>> clause in any resolution drawn up for Iraq.
>>
>> They can buy anything that's not proscribed and I believe that only
>> things that can be used to make WMD are on the list. Pistols and
>> handguns and kalashnikovs and helicopters and .. are not. I'm willing
>> to be corrected on this, so perhaps you'll point me to your source?
> Peter looks like you may be right about the Guns for Food program. I did go
That accuracy.org site was interesting. Seems like propaganda has a lot
of people off-balance.
> and search for any kind of Arms other than the ones sited in the UN
> Resolutions, 17 I believe, I'm sure you will correct me if wrong, and I
> couldn't find anything other than the WMD issue.
> I could have sworn there was some kind of mention about other weapons in
> there. Guess then you could turn it into a moral issue. But since when has
> an Arms Dealer had any morals, except money. The next argument could be the
Nations have a perfect right to have an army and defend themselves, and
they need arms to do that. In case you hadn't noticed, Iraq has at
least one neighbour, Iran, that I believe that they kind of like to go
to war with. And then there are the Kurds. And maybe the shiites would
get uppity too. But the tanks and so on are to defend themselves as a
nation. But in any case it's their decision what they spend their money on
- if the people don't like the govt spending all their money on arms
instead of social welfare or beefing up the econonmy, they can always
rebel.
Oh. I forgot. You have to suffer until the next presidential elections.
> US is guilty of the same moral issues with the US selling Iraq chemicals
> during the Iran war. Hoping we learned are lessons on that huge mistake.
US firms have been selling Iraq everything that is not proscribed and
that the US govt allows them to, "too". Nobody anywhere is selling much
of anything that is proscribed, as far as anyone has been able to
determine. The question is whether they have been able to obtain
precursor items for chemical warfare or not. Having read Blix's report
I am pretty sure that they have not, with about 90% certainty, and nor
are they interested in doing so. I am also pretty sure with more
certainty still that they still have binary sarin from the late 1980s -
mainly because the components are stable and nigh on impossible to get
rid of. Moreover, there were enough bombed factories and burned up
account books in the 1st gulf war to leave considerable doubt over how
much they had then and how much they used.
But there are no signs of large scale weaponization (or any).
> I could go into how many countries like France, Germany, Russia, and China
> are guilty of the same behavior but I won't.
> My hope first, is a fast end to the war, second, once the WMD is found and I
> believe it will be, its destroyed, and third, the people in Iraq will have
Forget it! Get used to the idea that this is just an excuse! There
certainly are drums of 1990 vintage left over dross from the iran/iraq
war floating about beneath the sands somewhere. But it's useless to
Iraq - they're not fighting wars against Iran any longer, so they
don't have to deal with human wave attacks by fanatics eager to meet
their god as martyrs. Hence the army has no use for such stuff. It's
much more dangerous to their own troops than anything else! You try
throwing a sarin grenade! Or filling it! These things can't stay stable
one activated for more than 20 days, as I recall. They'd kill their
store clerks, then the troops they issued them to, etc.
This whole nonsense arose because the feeble mind of dubya, while
searching for a leitmotif to his presidency, hit on the idea of
a crusade against evil. In his mind, things are evil or good. Once
the cia and rumsfeld and co had given him enough daily briefings
of the nastiness of the Iraqis regime, they were evil. Then all
the team had to do was find a reason to explain why. They tried
"support of terrorism". Then they tried "threat to the US". Then
"danger to the region". Then "nasty to its own people". Etc. But
it's really not quite that at all.
> some sort of freedoms whether it's a democracy or whatever. Its sad to
> think that the third highest oil producing country in the world is
> squandering its wealth on WMD, 50+ Presidential Palaces and Sadamns
Pathetic. No, it's not sad, it's none of your business. Go find somebody
else to feel sanctimonious about, someone with less money. No, wasting
money is not a crime. No, WMD don't cost money (quite the opposite -
they'd generate jobs in industry). No, they don't exist, because if
they did they'd cost money (;-) and be visible in the nations accounts.
> fanatical ideas of Middle East Domination, while the masses are forced to
> live in poverty and tortured if they don't agree. At least I can walk down
> the street in America and if I want, (and I would not ) wave a banner,
No you cannot. Try standing up in a basketball court and saying you
don't agree with killing thousands of people in Iraq in order to
depose a dictator who provides work to his people building public
palaces for them. See if you keep your job.
> ?Bush is an Idiot.?
Yep. Manifestly so. Ask any world leader. There are a lot of them, you
know. Heard any of them say "Bush is an intelligent man"?
The most you will get out of Blair is something like "Bush is a man of
vision" (translate: delusional religious simpleton).
> I do believe the US and UK will do what is right and let the Iraqis run
> their county and get humanitarian aid to them asap. God, help us if the UN
What's stopping them? Devote a couple of thousand plumbers to setting
up water pipes and I'm sure 2 days, not 2 weeks, will be the timescale!
> has anything to do with it. People will starve while the UN sits in
> committee arguing who should get help. France would probably veto it.
Nonsense. The UN votes FOR help. It's the US that offers them war
instead of help.
> Just some thoughts on a contriversal subject.
Except that thinking instead of swallowing tall stories seems to be
what you are about.
Peter
Circuit Breaker
> Circuit Breaker wrote:
<...>
>> would you mind telling me what ... "XY# BO#HE!" means???
To which, Zbigniew A. countered:
<...>
> You wouldn't want to know...
> You're American, right? You'll be sorry when he tells ya.
<...>
> (feels a long and winding OT thread building far away...)
¡Ay, Dios! If I'da had a clue...
Rich
Think they tried that about 12 years ago and one group was gassed and the
others were murdered in the streets.
>
> Oh. I forgot. You have to suffer until the next presidential elections.
I'm fine, not suffering in the least. Matter of fact my company may have a
chance to rebuild the telecommunications in Iraq
>
>> US is guilty of the same moral issues with the US selling Iraq chemicals
>> during the Iran war. Hoping we learned are lessons on that huge mistake.
>
> US firms have been selling Iraq everything that is not proscribed and
> that the US govt allows them to, "too". Nobody anywhere is selling much
> of anything that is proscribed, as far as anyone has been able to
> determine. The question is whether they have been able to obtain
> precursor items for chemical warfare or not. Having read Blix's report
> I am pretty sure that they have not, with about 90% certainty, and nor
> are they interested in doing so. I am also pretty sure with more
> certainty still that they still have binary sarin from the late 1980s -
> mainly because the components are stable and nigh on impossible to get
> rid of. Moreover, there were enough bombed factories and burned up
> account books in the 1st gulf war to leave considerable doubt over how
> much they had then and how much they used.
>
> But there are no signs of large scale weaponization (or any).
Thats not what many prior weapons inspectors have said.
>
>> I could go into how many countries like France, Germany, Russia, and
>> China are guilty of the same behavior but I won't.
>
>> My hope first, is a fast end to the war, second, once the WMD is found
>> and I believe it will be, its destroyed, and third, the people in Iraq
>> will have
>
> Forget it! Get used to the idea that this is just an excuse! There
> certainly are drums of 1990 vintage left over dross from the iran/iraq
> war floating about beneath the sands somewhere. But it's useless to
> Iraq - they're not fighting wars against Iran any longer, so they
> don't have to deal with human wave attacks by fanatics eager to meet
> their god as martyrs.
Seems Iraq has no problem now recruiting them from all over the Middle East.
Wonder why the change in policy. As fast as they arrive in town, they die
even faster!
Hence the army has no use for such stuff. It's
> much more dangerous to their own troops than anything else! You try
> throwing a sarin grenade! Or filling it! These things can't stay stable
> one activated for more than 20 days, as I recall. They'd kill their
> store clerks, then the troops they issued them to, etc.
Well its never stopped them/him in the past. Your telling me Sadamn has any
regard for his soldiers and citizens? What planet have you been living on?
>
> This whole nonsense arose because the feeble mind of dubya, while
> searching for a leitmotif to his presidency, hit on the idea of
> a crusade against evil. In his mind, things are evil or good. Once
> the cia and rumsfeld and co had given him enough daily briefings
> of the nastiness of the Iraqis regime, they were evil. Then all
> the team had to do was find a reason to explain why. They tried
> "support of terrorism". Then they tried "threat to the US". Then
> "danger to the region". Then "nasty to its own people". Etc. But
> it's really not quite that at all.
Answer is? (D) all the above
>
>> some sort of freedoms whether it's a democracy or whatever. Its sad to
>> think that the third highest oil producing country in the world is
>> squandering its wealth on WMD, 50+ Presidential Palaces and Sadamns
>
> Pathetic. No, it's not sad, it's none of your business. Go find somebody
> else to feel sanctimonious about, someone with less money. No, wasting
> money is not a crime. No, WMD don't cost money (quite the opposite -
> they'd generate jobs in industry). No, they don't exist, because if
> they did they'd cost money (;-) and be visible in the nations accounts.
No it is the USA's business, havent you heard we're the Worlds Policemen.
Watch out, Syria may be next, if they don't straighten their act up. Bet
that would really piss you off???
>
>> fanatical ideas of Middle East Domination, while the masses are forced to
>> live in poverty and tortured if they don't agree. At least I can walk
>> down the street in America and if I want, (and I would not ) wave a
>> banner,
>
> No you cannot. Try standing up in a basketball court and saying you
> don't agree with killing thousands of people in Iraq in order to
> depose a dictator who provides work to his people building public
> palaces for them. See if you keep your job.
I'm sure I would. I own my own business. I'm not a basketball fan. Now if
you're talking about Hockey thats another story. But that wouldn't be my
style.
>
>> ?Bush is an Idiot.?
>
> Yep. Manifestly so. Ask any world leader. There are a lot of them, you
> know. Heard any of them say "Bush is an intelligent man"?
>
> The most you will get out of Blair is something like "Bush is a man of
> vision" (translate: delusional religious simpleton).
Another one of your talents, reading minds. Who told you that?
>
>
>> I do believe the US and UK will do what is right and let the Iraqis run
>> their county and get humanitarian aid to them asap. God, help us if the
>> UN
>
> What's stopping them? Devote a couple of thousand plumbers to setting
> up water pipes and I'm sure 2 days, not 2 weeks, will be the timescale!
>
>> has anything to do with it. People will starve while the UN sits in
>> committee arguing who should get help. France would probably veto it.
>
> Nonsense. The UN votes FOR help. It's the US that offers them war
> instead of help.
12 years of help. With that kind of help who needs the UN? The UN is
USELESS! Can't even pay their parking tickets in New York. How could you
ever expect them to manage the rebuilding of a country. What a joke and a
pipe dream.
>
>> Just some thoughts on a contriversal subject.
>
> Except that thinking instead of swallowing tall stories seems to be
> what you are about.
>
> Peter
Nice try, time will tell who was right, and besides I'd rather be on the
winning team! Go USA !!! Go Colorado Avalanche. France, Germany, Russia,
and China take a hike!
Now you know my true thoughts on the subject, boy did you fall into that
trap!
naci
>>
>> There's nothing wrong with selling things to Iraq. Including weapons,
>> as far as I know! If you think there is, why don't you tell us what it
>> is? Remember that _weapons of mass destruction_ are what the UN forbad
>> Iraq to have. And remember that the US doesn't seem to want to obey the
>> will of the UN ...
>
> I believe there is Peter. Don't believe there is a Weapons for Food
> clause in any resolution drawn up for Iraq.
>
>>
>>> 12 years). So, don't worry about your 4 1/2 month contract.
>>> Leave NOW.
>
> That wasn't very nice! This whole mess with the Russian Embassy needs
> further investigation. Until then its all speculation and doubt the truth
> will ever come out. What is ridiculous is that Information Ministry
> claiming the US is not in Baghdad and for his rag tag units to continue
> fighting. Give up and end the thing already instead of continuing the
> suffering.
>
> Rich
UT and PT could give the Iraq misinformation minister a run for his money
with the garbage they spit out. But then UT is a hypocrite and PT is an
overbearing ass kisser (russian and french ass kisser to be more specific)
I can't figure out why the hell have they have not hit the chinese embassy
as yet as well.........it is a tradition ;)
naci
>
> They can buy anything that's not proscribed and I believe that only
> things that can be used to make WMD are on the list. Pistols and
> handguns and kalashnikovs and helicopters and .. are not. I'm willing
> to be corrected on this, so perhaps you'll point me to your sourc
It is now a mute point idiot. The debating excerise is over (bend over
france, now back to your richly deserved irrelevance), saddam is history.
We have taken care of business again and all the rats are busy abondoning
ship. Now lets carve up the spoils, none for the frogs, squareheads or the
warmed over commies.
Here, my iraqi friend, let me help you but that rope around the neck of that
statue of Saddam............if the French had their way, everyone would
still be debating, with "inspectors" running all over the place on a wild
goose chase. Be gone tin pot dictator.
naci
> France would probably veto it.
Time to reorganize the UN. France is just an overblown backwater. Toss them
out of the security council.
naci
>
> Nations have a perfect right to have an army and defend themselves,
Hey dummy, Saddam has used his army for every purpose but defending Iraq.
> and
> they need arms to do that. In case you hadn't noticed, Iraq has at
> least one neighbour, Iran, that I believe that they kind of like to go
> to war with.
well payback is a bitch. It was saddam who invaded them when he though they
were venerable
>And then there are the Kurds.
I guess gassing thier women and children has nothing to do with the kurds
hating them.
> And maybe the shiites would
Butchering 10s of thousands of them can induce problems...
> get uppity too. But the tanks and so on are to defend themselves as a
> nation. But in any case it's their decision what they spend their money on
> - if the people don't like the govt spending all their money on arms
> instead of social welfare or beefing up the econonmy, they can always
> rebel.
Well hard to do when one of the main purpose of the army, when not attacking
neighours, is repressing the people. Add to that support from russians and
french hypocrites and you have a recipe for continued repression with no
end.
Peter for iraqi "information" sminister. I spit in your face........
naci
> Nice try, time will tell who was right, and besides I'd rather be on the
> winning team! Go USA !!! Go Colorado Avalanche. France, Germany, Russia,
> and China take a hike!
>
> Now you know my true thoughts on the subject, boy did you fall into that
> trap!
I am shocked you took the dynamic duo of PT and UT seriously for this long.
Both are former reporters for Pravda.
naci
>
> It truly must be eating their insides right now with the
> dancing in the streets, flowers being handed to soldiers
> walking into town and the sign held by Iraqis telling the
> human shields to "Go Home, Wankers" I think that about sums
> it up.
Not UT, he has his hypocrital ass firmly plant in the US, enjoying its
feedoms, while voraciouly supporting the status quo in iraq and comparing
Bush to stalin and hitler, well actually saying he is worse.
Peter T. Breuer
Hey, I wouldn't take that rag's money! I'm paid directly by al quiada,
the saddam fedayeen, the north koreans, the iranian clergy, the syrian
baathists, and the society for free hindu beef. Let's not mention the
cia. OK, we won't. How about the chinese communists? Don't they have
any weapons of mass destruction? I think they really ought to.
Why stop at Irak?
But then why start at Irak in the first place? I don't mind an honest
statement of why. But this cack about WMD, terrorists, threats, and
so on makes me puke. No government who either can't or won't provide
a coherent explanation of why they declare war on someone (have they?)
is to be trusted.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>>
>> They can buy anything that's not proscribed and I believe that only
>> things that can be used to make WMD are on the list. Pistols and
>> handguns and kalashnikovs and helicopters and .. are not. I'm willing
>> to be corrected on this, so perhaps you'll point me to your sourc
> It is now a mute point idiot. The debating excerise is over (bend over
MOOT point, idiot. No, it is not moot. The question is whether the US
wants to abide by the rule of law, or not. If not, it's illegal.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> Rich wrote:
>> France would probably veto it.
> Time to reorganize the UN. France is just an overblown backwater. Toss them
You have never been to france. You would find it is one of the worlds
more advanced countries, in all senses of the world.
But it's clear your ideas come from comics and rightist pamphlets.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> Peter T. Breuer vomited
>> Nations have a perfect right to have an army and defend themselves,
> Hey dummy, Saddam has used his army for every purpose but defending Iraq.
Like what? Keeping order? Putting down rebellions? Atatcking foreign
countries? All those are perfectly allowable. Dummy.
>> they need arms to do that. In case you hadn't noticed, Iraq has at
>> least one neighbour, Iran, that I believe that they kind of like to go
>> to war with.
>
> well payback is a bitch. It was saddam who invaded them when he though they
> were venerable
Ah yes. When you are venerable. Are you sure you don't mean venereal?
How lucky that
>>And then there are the Kurds.
> I guess gassing thier women and children has nothing to do with the kurds
> hating them.
I don't believe they do! And no, it doesn't.
>> And maybe the shiites would
> Butchering 10s of thousands of them can induce problems...
And how many men did you butcher in the sands of iraq? Was it half a
million? Do you know? Do you even care to find out? Would you mind
looking up the demographics of Irak and explaining why nearly half the
population is under the age of 15? What happened to the older folks?
Care to tell me?
>> get uppity too. But the tanks and so on are to defend themselves as a
>> nation. But in any case it's their decision what they spend their money on
>> - if the people don't like the govt spending all their money on arms
>> instead of social welfare or beefing up the econonmy, they can always
>> rebel.
> Well hard to do when one of the main purpose of the army, when not attacking
> neighours, is repressing the people. Add to that support from russians and
The army's job is indeed to keep civil order when there are mass civil
disturbances. Whether you think that is repression depends whether you
are part of the repressed people or the repressing people.
Grow a sense. Of perspective. Learn to see. The other side.
> french hypocrites and you have a recipe for continued repression with no
The french are most certainly NOT hypocrites. They quite vehemently
express their disgust at warmongerers and aggressors of any kind, be
it Saddam Hussein or YOU. Be it their friends or enemies. They say what
they think and they followed it up. If you can confuse honesty and
morality with hypocrisy, then you are in a bad way.
But it's clear you, like many americans, have a problem thinking, or
just being aware that there are other things in the world besides the
states. There are plenty of ways to topple a regime like saddam
husseins. The problem is that you chose to invent a fake pretext and go
to war in order to do it. That sticks in any honest man's craw. It's
indefensible in its own context. You can't just make up excuses and go
invading foreign countries, just because YOU think it's OK. That's
medieval. The civilised world and civilised peoples are rightly
disgusted with your regime.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> sleazy rider wrote:
>> It truly must be eating their insides right now with the
>> dancing in the streets, flowers being handed to soldiers
>> walking into town and the sign held by Iraqis telling the
>> human shields to "Go Home, Wankers" I think that about sums
>> it up.
> Not UT, he has his hypocrital ass firmly plant in the US, enjoying its
> feedoms, while voraciouly supporting the status quo in iraq and comparing
Stop making up your idiocies. NOBODY supports saddam hussein. I don't!
And *I* don't support the US's illegal actions and attitudes for the
same reason as I don't support SH's actions and attitudes.
> Bush to stalin and hitler, well actually saying he is worse.
Nobody has said that. Your diseased brain once again walks its way back
to its false illusions and beliefs, no matter how many times you are
corrected. Show the quote. Read it.
Peter
Philip Callan
"Rich" <drv.t...@verizonDOT.net> wrote
> 12 years of help. With that kind of help who needs the UN? The UN is
> USELESS! Can't even pay their parking tickets in New York. How could you
> ever expect them to manage the rebuilding of a country. What a joke and a
> pipe dream.
'The United States remained the UN's largest debtor (followed by Japan and
the
Russian Federation), owing $1.6 billion in past and present dues as of
February 1, 1997'
Yeah, well, when the US has *NEVER* paid their dues, and owe in excess of
75% of the
UN's debt, maybe if the US paid their dues, they could do their jobs a lot
better.
See, the US (just like in NAFTA) looked for a loophole to screw other
countries with,
since thats your governments preference.
-> The charter of the United Nations allows for the voting
rights of a nation to be suspended should they not
pay all dues.
This is where the loophole and Security Council Reform comes into effect.
The United States is
a permament member of the Security Council,with veto powers. Unfortunately,
should the General
Assembly pass a resolution in support of suspending the US voting rights, it
would have to also pass
through the Security Council. Now, where did the US have veto power?
And in case you didnt know, the UN has far less red tape in its operations
than say NYC, with less
beurocracy (sp) and a cleaner operations budget. Partially in part that
Clinton said 'Sure, we'll start
paying our back dues, but first you have to change this, this, and this. And
then (big suprise) they went
back on their promises, and havent paid a dime. Typcial American (Gov)
behavior, get all close to
someone, be their 'best friend' sure sure, we'll let you have this and this
and this, oh we just want one little
thing from ya, then *BAM* before you know it, the American Gov is grinning
and doing their zipper up,
and your left used and abused.
Oh and lets not forget, most times a country got the s*** end of the stick
finacially from the US, it was because
they were persuaded to sign a trade agreement THE US AUTHORED, which
invariably, gives them the right to
exploit you in perpetuity. The US is the worlds largest consumer, and to
make sure you all can keep consuming
at the rate you are, your government is willing to set aside political,
ethical, enviromental, and economic consideration
for others. Who cares if some 3rd world country goes under because your Gov
has been buying their exports at
1/2 of their world market value and has locked them into agreements which
ALWAYS gives the US first chance to
grab it all.
Face it, American people, as a general rule, are great, I've been down on
vacation, and visiting relatives in the US quite
often, and for me at least (living in Alberta) most of the americans I've
spoke with were pretty much just like us, cept they
talk funny.
It's too bad their shackled with a huge government, which has long been
stumbling under its own weight, filled with cronies
and back door dealers. A lot of the US Gov. stupid actions, start with these
doddering old fools who have held their job for
40 years, and remember the 'good old days' when you could beat protesters or
troublemakers with the good stuff, beatsticks and
firehoses, none of this rubber bullet crap.C'mon lets stuff 5-10 SARS
infected people into Congress, lock the doors, and start fresh?
better yet, how about 'term-limits' oh wait, they'd have to approve that
themselves wouldnt they........
bleh, I'm gonna stop ranting, point is, the american people are fine, their
goverment blows chunks.
Rich
Does 17 UN Resolutions Ring a Bell, moron? Now stick your unbridled support
for a dictator and pride UP YOUR ASS!!!! I was waiting for this moment for
weeks, bitting my tongue, listenning to the bullshit from UT and Peter. I
guess you wont be getting checks from the dictator anymore, unemployment is
a bitch. Time to find another cause and murderer to work for.
Good Luck,
Peter T. Breuer
> Does 17 UN Resolutions Ring a Bell, moron? Now stick your unbridled support
Please OBEY them. As far as we know, Iraq has. And kindly point to
these. Starting with 661, which I believe is sanctions on iraq unless
tehy get out of kuwait (which I also believe they did!).
> for a dictator and pride UP YOUR ASS!!!! I was waiting for this moment for
I have no support whatsoever for that dictator. Are you an idiot or
WHAT? Stick yourself up your own "arse" and wipe your tongue with it.
What kind of a nitwit does it take to not understand that other people
have different value systems than you? No, other people do NOT think it
is better to go to war than to apply sanctions. No, other people do not
think that killing iraqis is good. No, other people do not think that
shooting your way into baghdad is brilliant diplomacy. And neither has
any US govt until your present idiot and his right wing perverts.
Neither do all the peoples of europe and asia and the whole rest of the
world, more or less.
> weeks, bitting my tongue, listenning to the bullshit from UT and Peter. I
> guess you wont be getting checks from the dictator anymore, unemployment is
> a bitch. Time to find another cause and murderer to work for.
Go jump in a puddle of your own shit. Look at an iraqi child with both
its arms blown off. "you" did that. If somebody else did that, you can
blame them. If YOU did that, then you have to blame yourself. You
cannot say to yourself that a lot of people are dancing in the streets
and ignore that child YOU maimed. Ask the Pope.
Peter
Tux
You need to go to the UN and Read res 1441 and the other 16 before that
Iraq Has been told to Dis Arm What has been Being sold by the Russian States
are Items that can be used in the manufuacture of Weapons of mass
distruction. Also things like Fuels for Missiles got from France and China.
But if you would listen too real sources and looked things up on your own
you would know that But no you would rather listen to Anti American Media.
before you state things you know nothing about you should really look
farther into it. RES 1441 gave the authorization for force. the colition
only went back to the un to help Tony Blair with His own Party in England.
Once France said they would block any other resulation it made that a MOOT
point. So unless you agree with allowing a Sidistic Dictator to manfacture
weapons of mass distruction to be given or sold to terriost groups then
maybe you should stand behind this action. or learn to speek Iraqi.
Rich
Sorry Peter, I have been there and I couldn't wait to get out. The French
are the nastiest and condescending people I ever had the pleasure of
meeting. Yes Peter you fit right in no wonder you enjoy the culture I
would have much rather spent the time I wasted there, (one week) in
Germany, Italy and Greece. And their wine is overpriced and it sucks!
Eight weeks total in Europe, 1 week too long in France!
Qui s'excuse' s'accuse (translate: a guilty conscience needs no accuser)
Andreas Paasch
Before getting facts wrong about who sold what to saddam, I'd suggest
everyone go watch "Bowling for Columbine" as that does contain a lot of
fact of american governments interaction globally whereby Iraq is only a
minor hurdle.
US sold arms to Iraq, US sold chemical warfare gases to Iraq ... even told
by your own good old Michael Moore. He's a journalist, and as far as I know
very good at it, eventhough someone controversial.
But that movie about americans and stating that information, I'm convinced
he did serious and proper research first.
And then go on with linux or take it to one of the politics groups.
This is facing some sort of attempts of "Berufsverbot" .. grow up !
I'm sick and tired of reading about peoples ignorance and stupidity. Get
your facts right and grant other the respect of difference.
And no, I can't and won't killfile anyone as a lot of you guys know way more
of mandrake then I do .. so whether I need to read a post here or there ..
I still get info, I learn.
/Andreas
--
Registeret Linux user #292411
"Sometimes it's hard to see the forest for all those trees!"
Read elsewhere: "Need a vacuumcleaner? - Get me, I suck!"
Rich
I knew what both were about, just wanted one of them to spell it out clearly
so the rest of the group would know. I played the fence, a tilting subject
until the time was right. Got the exact reaction I was looking for from the
rest of the responders.
Oh one last thing. Just heard from the Ambassador from Iraq and when asked
what happens now? He replied the Game is Over. Funny he and Sadamn went
into this as if it was a game. A game they lost and cost thousands of lives
instead of a few chess pieces.
Party on Iraq, have a wonderful day celebrating your freedom from a tyrant!
Rich
You have for 12 years. The Pope is thinking about as clearly as you these
days.
Rich
> Rich <drv.t...@verizondot.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Does 17 UN Resolutions Ring a Bell, moron? Now stick your unbridled
>> support
>
> Please OBEY them. As far as we know, Iraq has. And kindly point to
> these. Starting with 661, which I believe is sanctions on iraq unless
> tehy get out of kuwait (which I also believe they did!).
>
>> for a dictator and pride UP YOUR ASS!!!! I was waiting for this moment
>> for
>
> I have no support whatsoever for that dictator. Are you an idiot or
> WHAT? Stick yourself up your own "arse" and wipe your tongue with it.
> What kind of a nitwit does it take to not understand that other people
> have different value systems than you? No, other people do NOT think it
> is better to go to war than to apply sanctions. No, other people do not
> think that killing iraqis is good. No, other people do not think that
> shooting your way into baghdad is brilliant diplomacy. And neither has
> any US govt until your present idiot and his right wing perverts.
> Neither do all the peoples of europe and asia and the whole rest of the
> world, more or less.
Tell that to the Iraqi citizens of the US, they too are dancing in the
streets and can't wait to go back to Iraq and help build up their country.
I salute them.
Believe your tilting the balance just a bit in favor of your position and
that's not true. Love to see what Europe and Asia would be like today if
the US didn't involve themself in WWII. You ungrateful bitch.
>
>> weeks, bitting my tongue, listenning to the bullshit from UT and Peter. I
>> guess you wont be getting checks from the dictator anymore, unemployment
>> is a bitch. Time to find another cause and murderer to work for.
>
> Go jump in a puddle of your own shit. Look at an iraqi child with both
> its arms blown off. "you" did that. If somebody else did that, you can
> blame them. If YOU did that, then you have to blame yourself. You
> cannot say to yourself that a lot of people are dancing in the streets
> and ignore that child YOU maimed. Ask the Pope.
--
Peter T. Breuer
>> and ignore that child YOU maimed. Ask the Pope.
> You have for 12 years. The Pope is thinking about as clearly as you these
> days.
When you are as clever as the pope, wake me up. Go explain to the
religious believer in the whitehouse that if it's not alright to
kill a foetus because its mother doesn't want to be subject to its
tyranny, then it's not alright to kill thousands of people either.
And get an appreciation of what killing and maiming means.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> Peter T. Breuer wrote:
>> Rich <drv.t...@verizondot.net> wrote:
> Tell that to the Iraqi citizens of the US, they too are dancing in the
> streets and can't wait to go back to Iraq and help build up their country.
> I salute them.
Everyone, including me, is REALLY happy that saddam is gone! They are
NOT happy that you shot your way into baghdad to do it. How many people
did you kill? One? One thousand? One hundred thousand? What is it
with you? Are you, like that idiot bush, unable to understand that the
world is not one-dimensional? The absence of bad is not good. The
absence of good is not bad. You cannot commit a crime in order to
prevent a crime, otherwise you make yourself a criminal.
You make me sick.
What was wrong with setting up an enclave in the south to match the one
in the north? No fighting. Pour money into it. Leave the borders open
and take all comers. Instant emptying of Saddams power base. Or just
actually financing the enclave in the north? What? Didn't want to
offend turkey? Tut tut.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> You need to go to the UN and Read res 1441 and the other 16 before that
1441? That was the one that threatened "serious consequences" if iraq
was in material breach of Un resolutions? The one that contained "no
hidden trigger" according to Colin Powell? The one that was couched
specifically to satisfy the rest of the world's insistance that there
should be no mention whatsoever of military force?
> Iraq Has been told to Dis Arm What has been Being sold by the Russian States
Thay are disarmed. Nobody can find an arm. The worst they could do was
produce a missile that went 190km without a guidance system on board!
Well, anyway, at least it flew, which is more than one can say of some
US rockets ...
> are Items that can be used in the manufuacture of Weapons of mass
Like what? The inspectors found nothing. I HAVE read the report, you
know! If you like, I'll send you the pdf.
> distruction. Also things like Fuels for Missiles got from France and China.
Fuel for missiles is not verboten. The missiles aren't verboten.
Remember?
> But if you would listen too real sources and looked things up on your own
Me! It's you who don't seem to do any looking!
> you would know that But no you would rather listen to Anti American Media.
Anti american media? Who would that be? The cnn and the bbc? I don't
get to see anything else. Well, maybe the local stations occasionally,
but they're usually too busy with awful cuban serials and ghastly chat
shows ..
> before you state things you know nothing about you should really look
> farther into it. RES 1441 gave the authorization for force. the colition
NO IT DID NOT! Where do you get such an utterly inverted view from?
> only went back to the un to help Tony Blair with His own Party in England.
In case you hadn't noticed, the reason that his own party is fed up
with him is that the people are fed up with him (and their own
consciences are fed up with him). Nobody can stomach this warmongering.
1/50 of the total population of great britain demonstrated against
the idea in london the first weekend. You imagine what would happen if
1/50 of the population of the US developed a conscience and turned up
on the white house lawn?
Good. Now try and understand that life is not a comic book.
> Once France said they would block any other resulation it made that a MOOT
They would block any resolution against war while you keep making up
nonsensical and arbitrary charges and good luck to them! At least they
had the strength of their convictions. If the US had any honesty they
would say that they saw a chance to stabilize the region by removing
a nasty regime. Instead they invent this nonsense about WMD,
terrorists, danger to the us, or whatever else was the cia's drugtrance
of the day.
> point. So unless you agree with allowing a Sidistic Dictator to manfacture
> weapons of mass distruction to be given or sold to terriost groups then
Don't do that. Don't attempt to tie disagreement with your argument to
agreement to something completely different. It's contemptible.
Being against your warmongering is not being for saddam hussein. Being
for saddam hussein is not being for WMD. Etc. There is no substance
either to the charges of WMD, terrorism, or anything else that you
propaganda-fed idyits swallow. Sure, he's a nasty dictator. Yes, Iraq
is still awash with sarin manufactured in the 1980s (late) stored
in some bunkers somewhere. No, that does not make him into a
manufacturer of WMD. No, he does not support Bin Laden. Quite the
opposite. All muslims hate him. Try and understand this: the enemy of
my enemy is not my friend. It's quite simple!
> maybe you should stand behind this action. or learn to speek Iraqi.
Maybe you should learn to think, along with the civilized people of the
world.
Peter
Teddy
The UN said recently that 5000 Iraqi children were dying each month
from starvation, malnutrition, or lack of medical care. Saddam has
been diverting the 'oil for food' program for military, palaces, &
his own bank accounts.
Peter T. Breuer
> Here, my iraqi friend, let me help you but that rope around the neck of that
> statue of Saddam............if the French had their way, everyone would
If you, god forbid, have any interest in knowing what the arab world
thinks of it, look at this summary:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2932833.stm
Peter
Uncle Theodore
Peter, if you still read this thread, I've just read an increadible
article, an interview with a Russian economist, made _before_ the war.
Now I understand all those strange moments in the recent events, like the
refusal of Europe to support Bush, the strange start of the war (when
instead of bombing Iraq for a month, Yanks tried to kill Saddam and moved
in even without making sure he was dead). I finally understand why the
war happened in the first place. And I'm even kinda synpathetic to the
Yanks... :-) They are fighting for their survival, not for world
domination.
See, the economist says American economy is not "on the verge of a
recession", it's in the middle of a deep structural crisis started in
2001, a crisis similar to what happend in the early 80's. Reagan then
saved American economy, but the IT hype of the 90's with its subsequent
collapse in 2000 created a deep structural crisis that has to be resolved
soon or else. The Reagan's method is not going to work this time,
although Bush is trying to pull something like that by his tax cut. But a
tax cut is not enough, he also needs to get more foreign capital into the
country, and it can't be done, because the base rate set by Federal
Reserve is too low. To increase it would mean to force many American
companies into bancrupcy and have a crisis right now.
Bush needs to amend for the screwed structure of American economy. The
work force is so expensive in this country that it's virtually impossible
to produce anything here. So, the majority of American businesses are in
the "service" sector or the financial one. But that's secondary branches.
America desperately needs a bigger primary sector of the economy, even if
it's American companies owning factories and oil wells overseas. Also, if
with Reagan, Yanks were backed up with the special status of the dollar,
which is now about to be gone with the Euro.
If Americans had managed
1. to get other countries to pay for the war as it was last time
2. preserve the Iraqi infrastructure by overthrowing Saddam and not
destroying much of oil wells and factories there
3. to get Iraq (and Middle East) as American colonies fast and without
much expenses
it would have saved American economy. None of that had happened. The
economist predicted a deep crisis in that case, saying that the gross
national product of the US could fall by as much as 20% in the next
several years.
Americam economy is in quite deep shit even now. Bush is not an idiot, he
just has no choice. Europe doesn't care about Saddam/maddam at all, it
just wants to see Yanks in the dumpster and their Euro victorious.
Russians just wait to see who promises more, so far it's been Europeans.
Chinese don't care about that at all.
A stuctural economical crisis killed the Soviet Union 12 years ago. I
lived through that, and I sympathise with Yanks if that's what awaits
them. Funny, the second superpower goes the way of the first...
Good Luck,
UT
--
Don't beg
Don't trust
Don't be afraid!
Peter T. Breuer
Show the quote. 5000 a month is not unusual stats for childhood deaths
in a country of that poverty level! Have you forgotten the age profile?
Let me quote the CIA factbook at you:
Birth rate: 34.2 births/1,000 population (2002 est.)
Death rate: 6.02 deaths/1,000 population (2002 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 57.61 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
So there you are. Just for comparison, I'll quote you Iran's figures:
Birth rate: 17.54 births/1,000 population (2002 est.)
Death rate: 5.39 deaths/1,000 population (2002 est.)
Infant mortality rate: 28.07 deaths/1,000 live births (2002 est.)
So I would say that Iraqis are twice as fecund and have double the infant
mortality rate. Hard to make a solid conclusion, but I would say they
are poor. Not surprising with a GDP of $15 billion and a population of
25 million, which is an income of $600 per head, gross, per year.
You really ought to pay them more for their oil!
Ya ya. I know. That's not how you measure. I counted income from
exports but not internally generated products consumed internally.
My point is that YOU ought to go look up the figures, not me.
> been diverting the 'oil for food' program for military, palaces, &
> his own bank accounts.
Research your own facts. Stop taking the bush regimes TV propaganda at
face value. Yes, saddam builds palaces. Who do you think he pays to
build them? The question is whether his use of the money makes economic
sense or not - I think not, but if economic sense were a criterion then
prezzy Bush would be out on his ear. So who's gonna overthrow PrezBush
just because they don't agree with his domestic economics? Now - what
you should complain about is the fact that Saddam pays his army rather
than buys food for the poor. That's obviously becuase he needs the army
in order to control the poor! And also the poor are the shiites, who
would like to overthrow him - so he's not likely to keep them healthy.
Mind you - if he realized that helping them would make him popular ...
Anyway, what I would like you (and others) to do is start researching
your own facts, and doing your own thinking.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> Wait a few months. Then see what the Iraqis have to say
> about it all after they have had time to see what actually
> happens next.
> Today's opinion of a bunch of non-Iraqi Arabs that didn't
> have to live under Sadam's regime doesn't mean diddly. Not
It means at least as much as mine. And a lot more than yours. I'm not
saying that they are for or against, you know! Things are much more
complicated than that! I am only asking that "nasty" go and get some
perspective on what others think and feel, and why ...
> much more than your opinion.
Opinions are not the question. Views are, and the reasons why.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> Peter, if you still read this thread, I've just read an increadible
> article, an interview with a Russian economist, made _before_ the war.
Not that article again?
> Now I understand all those strange moments in the recent events, like the
> refusal of Europe to support Bush, the strange start of the war (when
> instead of bombing Iraq for a month, Yanks tried to kill Saddam and moved
> in even without making sure he was dead). I finally understand why the
No, that's nonsense. Forget it - just an academic trying to make a stir
by flight of fancy!
> See, the economist says American economy is not "on the verge of a
> recession", it's in the middle of a deep structural crisis started in
> 2001, a crisis similar to what happend in the early 80's. Reagan then
Yes, we know. No, Reagan didn't save it.
> saved American economy, but the IT hype of the 90's with its subsequent
> collapse in 2000 created a deep structural crisis that has to be resolved
> soon or else. The Reagan's method is not going to work this time,
> although Bush is trying to pull something like that by his tax cut. But a
> tax cut is not enough, he also needs to get more foreign capital into the
> country, and it can't be done, because the base rate set by Federal
> Reserve is too low. To increase it would mean to force many American
> companies into bancrupcy and have a crisis right now.
He's not worried about the economy. Bush's fundamentalism extends to
embrace the belief that god looks after the right. No, the US economy
is not in such bad straits as the rest of the world. There's venture
capital around for some things - I know! I'm in IT! It's hard but not
impossible to raise money - indeed, money must go into companies
because other investments don't have a chance of paying off, so one
might as well take a risk. The question is how to move to a knowledge
economy ...
> Bush needs to amend for the screwed structure of American economy. The
> work force is so expensive in this country that it's virtually impossible
> to produce anything here. So, the majority of American businesses are in
> the "service" sector or the financial one. But that's secondary branches.
> America desperately needs a bigger primary sector of the economy, even if
There are many who would argue that like all developed economies,
it has to move entirely to service and away from primary production.
See any primary production in the UK?
> 1. to get other countries to pay for the war as it was last time
> 2. preserve the Iraqi infrastructure by overthrowing Saddam and not
> destroying much of oil wells and factories there
> 3. to get Iraq (and Middle East) as American colonies fast and without
> much expenses
The best bet is to get Iraq to pay for some of it, at least. But the
cost isn't that much for the US economy. It's less than $500 for every
person in the US, no? If it's paid for over 5 years nobody would
notice.
> it would have saved American economy. None of that had happened. The
> economist predicted a deep crisis in that case, saying that the gross
> national product of the US could fall by as much as 20% in the next
> several years.
That would be nasty. But I read the economist and I did not see that!
Oh - I see. You mean YOUR russian economist. Sorry UT, he's just a
crank.
> Americam economy is in quite deep shit even now. Bush is not an idiot, he
Yes, we know it is. Bush IS an idiot.
> just has no choice. Europe doesn't care about Saddam/maddam at all, it
No, bush does not have an economic plan.
> just wants to see Yanks in the dumpster and their Euro victorious.
While they don't mind having a good euro base, they don't want a weak
dollar!
> Russians just wait to see who promises more, so far it's been Europeans.
> Chinese don't care about that at all.
> A stuctural economical crisis killed the Soviet Union 12 years ago. I
> lived through that, and I sympathise with Yanks if that's what awaits
> them. Funny, the second superpower goes the way of the first...
It's not likely. Don't worry about it. If it happens, it'll be
predicted by more, bigger and better names than that. This war is pure
ideology. Bush doesn't understand complicated things like economics.
Just good and bad.
Peter
Peter T. Breuer
> Peter T. Breuer may have said:
>> D.B. <no...@here.com> wrote:
>> > Peter T. Breuer may have said:
>> >> naci <no...@none.com> wrote:
>> >> > Here, my iraqi friend, let me help you but that rope around the neck of that
>> >> > statue of Saddam............if the French had their way, everyone would
>> >>
>> >> If you, god forbid, have any interest in knowing what the arab world
>> >> thinks of it, look at this summary:
>> >>
>> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2932833.stm
>> Opinions are not the question. Views are, and the reasons why.
> No Peter, what matters is the opinions of the Iraqis. They
> will be translated to reality, not mere views and reasons.
I agree with you that they matter. But I am not asking or talking
about opinions - I am requesting that that guy naci.nasty go get some
perspective. That's all. There's no need to tell him not to read!
The more he reads, the more open may be his mind.
> The views and reason of the other Arabs don't matter because
> they didn't have to live under Sadam. My views and reasons
Oh, they do matter, and no, they didn't "have" to live under saddam.
Check out the exile communities and what they think too! Learn as much
as you can about what people think and why.
Peter
Tux
> Anyway, what I would like you (and others) to do is start researching
> your own facts, and doing your own thinking.
>
Unlike you who thinks like someone in playing pac-man.
Tux
> like the
> refusal of Europe to support Bush
Since when are france and germany the majority of Europe? Aren't Italy,
Spain, Portugal, UK, and a few other countries included in Europe?
Tux
> Just good and bad.
>
I agree, having money is good, not having money is bad.
Uncle Theodore
>
> That would be nasty. But I read the economist and I did not see that! Oh
> - I see. You mean YOUR russian economist. Sorry UT, he's just a crank.
>
>> Americam economy is in quite deep shit even now. Bush is not an idiot,
>> he
>
> Yes, we know it is. Bush IS an idiot.
See, the article might be wrong, but what is going on in reality then?
Things seem strange, and when things seem strange it means we're looking
at them at the wrong angle. There are things that need explanation and as
plausible the explanation "Bush is an idiot" sounds, it can't be it. How
would you explain
1. Brittain is with the US when the rest of the world is against it? (No,
Tux, I don't dismiss the Eastern Europe and some other countries as
insignificant, just their motives ranging from the desire to break free
from the old Soviet influence to a wish to milk the US cow have nothing
to do with long-term political goals that have to be in play here).
2. US attacks Iraq with NO apparent reason? The wish to show "who's the
boss" or the oil may seem like good reasons, but are they good *enough*
reasons?
3. The war plays out very strangely. The "allies" risk their soldiers,
loosing propaganda war, risk being stuck in the desert forever, instead
of playing the old, well-tested scenario of bombing the hell out of Iraq
and then moving in victoriously. Good thing they new in advance that Iraq
doesn't have any weapons of mass destrustion, but if it *had* that might
have been a *huge* catastrophy.
Bsuh might be an idiot, but are American and Brittish generals idiots
too? How 'bout Tony? Why did he risk loosing his patry's support for
Bushes war?
American economy *is* in a very bad shape, I see it from here. The budget
cuts in education, social programs etc were enormous before the war. Dow
stays up, but it looks artificial anyway.
The ideological pressure is enormous. You can see this in this newsgroup
too. Some yanks behave like total lunatics, and they can't be blamed for
that given what they see on TV, read in newspapers, see on the streets,
learn in school... By comparison, almost NOTHIG like that was going on
when the US was fighting Taliban, avenging for the Twin Towers.
Bush threw everything on this war, and his government, his party, his
OPPONENTS, the people who worked for Clinton, everybody in politics
supports him and does strange things. There's no rebelious ministers in
the US, Congress gives Bush money when he asks... Is everybody stupid?
Or, they know what they are doing but aren't in a hurry to tell us?
Circuit Breaker
Uncle Theodore once enlightened a small village with this song:
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2003 10:36:31 -0500, Circuit Breaker wrote:
>> I'm a curious bastard, would you mind telling me what the hell "XY#
>> BO#HE!" means???
> If you have to ask. On February 25 Russian group TATU was performing
> live on NBC's "Tonight Show" with Jay Leno (I have a clip of that
> performance as a proof if you wonder). The girls (Lena and Yulia) were
> in white T-shirts with big black Russian letters, "XY# BO#HE". "XY#"
I'm gonna hafta google that group now, just to see if the girls are cute.
Then I'll be able to decide if it was worth asking the original question
;-)
Uncle Theodore
Oh, they are! :-) I'm totally crazy about them. Or, maybe, just crazy...
:-)
(the photogallery doesn't do them any justice, but get a couple of
downloads from there, the clips are relatively harmless there).
Some general stuff is here:
If you like it, I can give you a link to about 2G of downloads
(videoclips). It's on another computer (laptop).
Rich
Of course we know what were doing! This has nothing to do with oil, and
probably nothing to do with liberation, but it helps. It's really very
basic.
What has happened in the last few weeks? It took the US two weeks to move 3
Divisions 300+ miles and one more to sack Baghdad with another coming up
from rear. Then to have most of the population in Iraq great us with
enthusium, completely surprised the Arabs. The Middle East is besides
themselves at the moment. The Arab Governments are just a little concerned.
Their subjects are just a little agitated by the events of yesterday. Iraq
is considered to have one of the most powerful army's in the Arab region
and it has the resources to rebuild itself, perfect easy target, not to
mention the terrorist treat. How secure do you think Syria, Iran, and
others in the region feel about now? The answer is, not very.
Its great to have a President that means what he says and says what he
means, DON'T FUCK WITH US or the wrath of God, Allah or Mohamad will strike
you dead!
Its that easy, you can throw the rest of your theories out the window. btw
UBL will be killed by Black Ops just before Pres. Bush's first term is up!
Guaranteed
Rich