Hey, Misty
Jim Cotton
Lighten up, please. Are you so jaded or jaundiced about the literature
of the West you can't accept someone is genuinely concerned about its
vitality or future? Some of us think it's slipping off into oblivion --
my four sons have never read a western or even a contemporary novel of
the west. Lately. Maybe Jack London in school but never Stegner,
Cather, or Ivan Doig. These are important figures of Western
literature and as worthy of honor as Flannery O' Connor, William
Faulkner, Carson McCullers and others of the Southern tradition.
Those folks who've conducted a national writing contest might suggest
you try it some time. Find out how much work -- pre- and post-deadline
-- must be undertaken to keep it going and visible. Until then,
remember it's easy to carp.
Compare fees and awards of other contests. You'll find many charge $20
to $35 for entry and award first place $500 if that.
Misty Ayed
>Compare fees and awards of other contests. You'll find many charge $20
>to $35 for entry and award first place $500 if that.
Nice try. I'm not even suggesting that
you are dishonest - just enterprising.
And of course, "self-serving" seems to fit.
I for one won't be paying you a single
thin dime to read what I write - you
can do that for free - RIGHT HERE.
Or should I say, WRITE HERE?
Jim Cotton
traditional westerns deemed adaptable to screenplays. Also, the website, www.
ranchingboy.to, presents young adult material with a strong western and Rocky
Mountain backcountry aviation character.
We want to be in the Western for the long haul. But reality looms. We've learned
we have to be very specific about our interests, or writers presume we'll relax
our focus and accept material with urban or deep Southern settings, for example.
People say: Why Westerns? Had a romance writer from Texas tell me today:
"Westerns are not my thing. Who writes those any more?"
Miisty, any press is self-serving if it's going to survive. Screenplay
adaptability, strong regional slant, western and rural depictions are the sticks
in our bundle. If the majors have dismissed the Western and relegated it to
extinction, then both the contest and this press may be engaged in an impractical
effort. The majors, it seems, have decided: No readership, no interest. No
interest, no call for Western submissions. Simple as that. Granted, they're
pretty savvy about these things, and they're not going to sponsor a revival if
the public finds the Western, whether traditional or modern, a yawner. They
still dictate. And if they're indifferent, we'll have to generate our own trends
-- not easy for us small potatoes out here. Wish I could predict if readers and
book buyers have shrugged us off, deciding to let the Western decline to the
quaint relic or anachronism they think it should become.
This forum is an example . . . . I don't see folks queing up to join these
discussions nor crowds bursting in to sound off. And slide on over to the Louis
L'Amour forum if you want to see something sad and unsettling. Aside from an
enthusiast named Kitty, the forum devoted to this household word and pillar of
the modern Western tradition is essentially moribund. Kitty asks: "Am I the only
one coming here?"
What are you going to do about this? What have you written?
Jim Cotton
Misty Ayed
>
>What have you written?
Okay, here's the Western Saga for
you in MUCH less than 250 words...
===================================
He came, he saw, he conquered!
She came, she saw, she concurred...
===================================
Original? Hardly.
But then as a visual artist myself,
I find little new under the sun
when it comes to "originality."
I'll do the illustrating and leave the
writing to my contemporary favorites,
one of whom happens to be Cormac McCarthy.
Jim Cotton
matter?
If you're not a writer, then the world of writing contests is likely new to you.
Some out there specify 100 words or less. Poetry contests are often quite
short. Our competition is easy as some contests require 5,000 word original
short stories, polished novel manuscripts, several sample chapters -- all
subject to elimination if judges find the slightest error. Proofreading 250
words should not be laborious.
Good luck!
Misty Ayed
>
>So you're an illustrator-artist and not a writer. Do you do Western subject
>matter?
Since this entire thread has been about
your attempts to promote yourself and
entice others to send you money, I'll
take this opportunity to promote myself
as well:
If you send ME money, I'll send you one
of my art works! And even let you choose
the art work you prefer!!
Jim Cotton
you, he, and myself all agree concerning the absolute necessity of promoting
oneself and one's work and vision.
Steve Grimm
Jim Cotton wrote:
> My son is a landscape-seascape artist and with a western portfolio as well. So
> you, he, and myself all agree concerning the absolute necessity of promoting
> oneself and one's work and vision.
Vision? Let's do some simple math. Assuming you get 500 entries and assuming you
charge $25 per entry (I did not look at your site):
500 * $25 = $12, 500
$12,500 - $8,000 = $4,500 (where $8,000 is the prize money)
So $4,500 equals your profit. I wouldn't call it self-promoting rather I see it as
self-serving and a money making opportunity at the expense of budding authors. If
you are in the business to make money...fine. Don't shovel guano about how you are
trying to save the western fiction world. Plenty of western fiction has benn and
is being written. If your son has not read any western fiction, who fault is that?
Steve Grimm
Jim Cotton wrote:
> My son is a landscape-seascape artist and with a western portfolio as well. So
> you, he, and myself all agree concerning the absolute necessity of promoting
> oneself and one's work and vision.
Vision? Let's do some simple math. Assuming you get 500 entries and assuming you
charge $25 per entry (I did not look at your site):
500 * $25 = $12,500
$12,500 - $8,000 = $4,500 (where $8,000 is the prize money)
So $4,500 equals your profit. I wouldn't call it self-promoting rather I see it as
self-serving and a money making opportunity at the expense of budding authors. If
you are in the business to make money...fine. Don't shovel guano about how you are
trying to save the western fiction world. Plenty of western fiction has been and
is being written. If your son has not read any western fiction, whose fault is
that?
Jim Cotton
To answer your last question first . . . . One Christmas, we gave our four boys a
selection of western writers: Tony Hillerman, Mari Sandoz, Willa Cather, Jack London,
Ernest Haycox, Louis L'Amour, Ivan Doig. I'm not sure any of them were cracked. Whose
fault? One can always blame the schools, the perenial scapegoat.
The boys preferred Tom Clancy, Piers Anthony, Clive Cussler. An indication?
Barometer? A message that tastes are now and will continue to change and probably away
from the Western for the foreseeable future? How many Western films are being made
today? If there was an interest, don't you think Hollywood would be serving them up,
as anxious as it is to both create and pander to public taste and whims?
I have a magazine in my file, Rocky Mountain Magazine, featuring these articles:
They Died with their Boots on--The Decline of the Western; and A Fistful of
Dollars--Hollywood Kills Off the Cowboy. The year of publication: 1982.
Second, it you haven't been to the site, then the question becomes: How do you know
what you're talking about?
Try sponsoring a contest by going to the bank, announcing "I'm from the arts. I need
$24,000 to sponsor a writing contest." You'd be out on the street within the minute.
What do you know about running a contest? It takes a great deal of time and money,
management, advertising, mailing. Every entry here is read twice to make sure each
contestant gets a fair shake. Try reading, then pondering and ranking 3,000
manuscripts some time.
Contests based on entry fees are common within both the fine arts and writing fields.
I'm sure Misty's encountered this. My son deals with entry fees all the time -- entry
fees for shows, juried workshops, Arts in the Parks. You can visit his page at
www.cottonfinearts.com.
Entering competitions is a major element in his marketing. Yes, he's done well, but
when he hasn't won, the payoff often comes after the contest when approached by a
gallery wanting to showcase his work or a commission from a patron liking his stuff.
Contests are a major part of promotion, networking, raising one's visibility. Since
I'm a small press, don't you think I'll take note of an impressive voice, a writer with
whom I might collaborate and publish? Good grief, it's fundamental. Misty can tell
you that.
Look, if I'm a writer of any genre and there's a contest where I can showcase my work,
network with an agent or publisher, perhaps even win a decent prize and gain valuable
post-event publicity, I'd want to know about it.
Especially when it's "capped" and offers some decent money. I ran across one today
where the entry fee is only $2 if you're a member ($17 if not) and the first prize is
$50. What's that buy today? Couple tanks of gas? How many thousand people enter at
$2? It's always disappointing to contestants to learn: "Our contest was a great
success--we had six thousand entries!" What chance has their work of winning, much
less get truly and fairly scrutinized in this sea of manuscripts?
Or, here's a very typical contest. Entry fee is $25 and three tops split $2500.
Contest is capped at 400 entries.
I'll do the math for you this time . . . . $10,000 is raised, payout is $2500.
Where's the other $7500? Well, a panel of judges has to be flown in, put up in a
mountain or seaside resort for several days, and what's left over pays the advertising,
postage, and overhead. Yes, the contest may be prestigious, but most artists and
writers can tell you the prestige lasts about a week, unless they truly exploit their
winning via resume's and press releases. What's missing is the money, and our contests
award four deep, not one or two, and pays $8000 per category. Writers need that kind
of prize to buy a sub to Literary Marketplace ($389 a year) or upgrade their computers.
Publishing is a business, Steven. And why should I posture as the savior of the
Western? If western films and original works are doomed, then publishing westerns or
contests are quixotic. Sure, I'd like to see greater interest in the genre I enjoyed
growing up, and remember, there are a great many strories of the frontier that have yet
to be told. Will they ever be presented in print or on film? Probably not, given the
present climate of reader indifference.
I invite you to visit our three websites. Until then, why sound off on a topic you
really don't fully understand?
Jim Cotton
Steve Grimm
Jim Cotton wrote:
> Look, Steve . . . .
>
> To answer your last question first . . . . One Christmas, we gave our four boys a
> selection of western writers: Tony Hillerman, Mari Sandoz, Willa Cather, Jack London,
> Ernest Haycox, Louis L'Amour, Ivan Doig. I'm not sure any of them were cracked. Whose
> fault? One can always blame the schools, the perenial scapegoat.
>
And yet look at all the western fiction being written today. Go to any book store and they
have a section devoted to westerns. Hmmmm.
> Second, it you haven't been to the site, then the question becomes: How do you know
> what you're talking about?
Based on what was said previously in the posts. And you are the sole judge for this
contest?
> Try sponsoring a contest by going to the bank, announcing "I'm from the arts. I need
> $24,000 to sponsor a writing contest." You'd be out on the street within the minute.
> What do you know about running a contest? It takes a great deal of time and money,
> management, advertising, mailing. Every entry here is read twice to make sure each
> contestant gets a fair shake. Try reading, then pondering and ranking 3,000
> manuscripts some time.
Let's redo the math.
3,000 * $25 = $75,000
$75,000 - $24,000 - $8,000 = $43,000
So you could sponsor another contest with your $43,000 and not miss a beat. I doubt you
spend $24,000 in promotion. Iif you do, you need a consultant.
> Or, here's a very typical contest. Entry fee is $25 and three tops split $2500.
> Contest is capped at 400 entries.
Scams abound. Comparing your contest to illustrate how generous you are is making me yawn.
> I invite you to visit our three websites. Until then, why sound off on a topic you
> really don't fully understand?
I understand perfectly. Give me the $43,000 and I will read those 3,000 manuscripts for
you.
Jim Cotton
You missed the beat here. Let's re-do the math.
There are three categories here: young adult, religious, western. Each category is limited to
500 entries, hence 1500 entries total at $25 per entry. Each manuscript is read twice, not
entered twice nor charged twice. Our goal is to pay out $8000 per category, total $24,000.
You've got it badly wrong. If you'd been to the website, you'd know this.
Getting back to the matter of demand. Shelves of new works are often reprints of old
standbys: Zane Grey, L'Amour, and I expect, since his passing, Terry C. Johnston's earlier
works will likely be re-issued. There are world's of possibilities, I think -- women's
accounts, post-1900s, Alaskan settings. But I don't see many coming to this press -- everyone
wants to write thrillers or courtroom stuff, so we see a lot of Clancey or Grisham wannabes.
Romances and murder mysteries.
Bantam and 20th Century Fox conducted a Westens contest in 1980. I don't know if it was
repeated or that it had any great impact on the industries. Seems like it died out, and I
don't think they made it an annual thing..
I judge the contest solely because I know what I'm looking for: "A Sense of Presence", a term I
use in critiquing and appraising a work. A panel couldn't adhere to what my "nose" tells me
about a work. Yes, it sounds abstract but is very attuned to a work's strengths, flaws,
appeal. One acquires this after years of doing it and wading through miles of manuscripts. I
wouldn't say I've seen everthing, but I've seen most everything and a lot of problems repeating
themselves.
If you were to read 3,000 manuscripts and conduct the pre-and post-event management and
publicity attending a contest, I think you'd change your mind as to the time and revenue
involved. Nothing much else gets done here for a solid two months surrounding the deadline.
Twelve-hour days are common. To recover costs and pay for the six months of total contest lead
time and follow-through work, one must figure a 30-32 gross percent margin. Many contests rely
on volunteers for the paperwork. This is a one person effort.
Writers don't begrudge our take if 1) contests are capped and they enter knowing they won't be
swamped but that the odds of placing in winning slots -- in our current contest -- are four out
of 500; 2) they're treated courteously and fairly; 3) and that there's a generous payout,
namely $8000 in each category. Remember, $24,000 total, not $8,000.
We hope to get the caps down to 400 eventually and open it to more categories. Westerns may
not be among them. The contest is young yet, but I can tell you -- so far -- westerns are
definitely lagging behind.
You haven't been to the websites? You're firing off these mean-spirited remarks based on
someone else's snide comments? If you'd go to the websites, you'd have a better idea of what
we do and what we've done.
You can't be that bored to keep up this thread. I'll go on all night -- it's a great platform
to explain the event and how it's managed. Plus we get folks to our websites as a bonus:
www.novel.to, www.ranchingboy.to, and www.noveledit.com.
jc
Steve Grimm
Jim Cotton wrote:
> No, no, Steve . . ..
>
> You missed the beat here. Let's re-do the math.
>
> There are three categories here: young adult, religious, western. Each category is limited to
> 500 entries, hence 1500 entries total at $25 per entry. Each manuscript is read twice, not
> entered twice nor charged twice. Our goal is to pay out $8000 per category, total $24,000.
> You've got it badly wrong. If you'd been to the website, you'd know this.
Since I do not like to be a P.T. Barnum victim, I will not go to your site. So let's redo the
math:
1,500 * $25 = $37,500
$37,500 - $24,000 (promo) - $24,000 (prizes) = $10,500
I would imagine you could easily read, evaluate and categorize 3 manuscripts per hour since they
are only 200 words.
($10,500 / 1,500) * 3 = $21 per hour
To alleviate the gross promotional costs, I would again suggest a consultant.
> Getting back to the matter of demand. Shelves of new works are often reprints of old
> standbys: Zane Grey, L'Amour, and I expect, since his passing, Terry C. Johnston's earlier
> works will likely be re-issued. There are world's of possibilities, I think -- women's
> accounts, post-1900s, Alaskan settings. But I don't see many coming to this press -- everyone
> wants to write thrillers or courtroom stuff, so we see a lot of Clancey or Grisham wannabes.
> Romances and murder mysteries.
How do you explain the popularity of Larry McMurty? There is western fiction being written and
these people may become the legends you mentioned. Instead of running contests, go take a look.
> I judge the contest solely because I know what I'm looking for: "A Sense of Presence", a term I
> use in critiquing and appraising a work. A panel couldn't adhere to what my "nose" tells me
> about a work. Yes, it sounds abstract but is very attuned to a work's strengths, flaws,
> appeal. One acquires this after years of doing it and wading through miles of manuscripts. I
> wouldn't say I've seen everthing, but I've seen most everything and a lot of problems repeating
> themselves.
You mean your contest is based on your opinion of what is good and what you like. Contests
typically have a panel of people to provide a rounded cross section and avoid any predjudices or
preconceived notions. No matter how objective you try to be there will always be judgements based
on your life, experiences and preferences.
> If you were to read 3,000 manuscripts and conduct the pre-and post-event management and
> publicity attending a contest, I think you'd change your mind as to the time and revenue
> involved. Nothing much else gets done here for a solid two months surrounding the deadline.
> Twelve-hour days are common. To recover costs and pay for the six months of total contest lead
> time and follow-through work, one must figure a 30-32 gross percent margin. Many contests rely
> on volunteers for the paperwork. This is a one person effort.
You forgot to mention the $2.00 Certificate of Honor or $25 trophy of the Thinking Man. Maybe this
is part of the $24,000 promotional expense.
> We hope to get the caps down to 400 eventually and open it to more categories. Westerns may
> not be among them. The contest is young yet, but I can tell you -- so far -- westerns are
> definitely lagging behind.
Then you will no longer proclaim the saving of the western fiction genre and won't spam this
newsgroup.
> You haven't been to the websites? You're firing off these mean-spirited remarks based on
> someone else's snide comments? If you'd go to the websites, you'd have a better idea of what
> we do and what we've done.
See P.T. Barnum reference and new math calculations above.
> You can't be that bored to keep up this thread. I'll go on all night -- it's a great platform
> to explain the event and how it's managed. Plus we get folks to our websites as a bonus:
> <snipped web sites>
If people are naive enough to visit your website and enter the contest, they get what they deserve.
Jim Cotton
Those are some prizes! I will send my fellow board members this
information.
Please include me in other mailings if possible - I am a big fan of the
West.
Regards,
Peg
Feeback has been positive. You're the only sniper and griper.
A perennial gripe of writers concerning contests is where the money goes, e. g. my example from an
earlier post. Ours is heavily slanted toward prize money, not promotion as you erroneously assert
(your math is still wrong). There are thousands of contests out there devoted to the arts and
writing, conducted by national magazines, major houses and small presses, state councils of the arts,
conferences, local writing groups, and genre specialities such as mystery and horror. Anyone reading
these posts would suggest you inform yourself about the subject before charging off on this tirade.
You flat don't know what you're talking about.
And this P. T. Barnum excuse of yours would strike any reasonable observer as simply silly. Anyone
following this thread would insist you to go to the sites and get the facts first before you make such
wild leaps, accusing folks of spam and scam. Since we are a very public small press plus conduct a
site devoted to western teens and their western lifestyles, it would be unbelievably stupid of us to
run a scam that would get parents in an uproar. Come on. You're being transparent.
I don't know your profession or employment, but accusing people of a scam can land you in court today.
I'm passing this material on to my lawyers in Whitefish for their review. How would you like to have
your business attacked with unfounded, unproved accusations?
Anyone understanding spamming would dismiss your comment. I notice you're not attacking Mr. Sparks on
this forum for promoting his western artifacts and imported hides, also a commercial venture. For one,
I'm glad to know about his business as a source of these decor items.
One of the goals of our contest is to identify -- over time -- a cadre of writers we can unite as a
guild or institute, work and market cooperatively, and gain a reputation as a source of do-able,
leading edge, highly appealing projects for both the book and film industry. This is nothing novel nor
secretive. Been done before. But the genesis of this won't happen over the transom. Has to be
structured and finely winnowed.
Your comment regarding judging clearly indicates you've never been in a critique group. There's no
accounting for taste with panel judging, assessments can be contradictory, and often judges are not
qualified to deliver articulate, penetrating decisions. They can be picked on their prestige as a
writer, their networks as an agent, their interests as a publisher. They may not know the criteria of
the contests before them until the day they arrive, must sift through the material on a tight schedule,
and then make snap judgments over often thousands of entries.
You call this fair? Why not have one guy who's experienced in critique, has thought long and deeply
about what he's looking for, and renders thorough and careful reading of each entry at least twice.
Winners are given a third reading here to establish final ranking. You don't know how this contest is
managed, don't want to know, and it's obvious to anyone following this thread, you are one of those
folks out to trash whatever he can. I notice your organization is called "disorganized" -- how ironic
and evidently indicative of your lifestyle and philosophy.
Anyone following these posts are likely tired of you and your campaign because you 1) won't go to the
sites and see what we're about; 2) are whining over wild, groundless accusations; 3) can't get the
facts straight about any of this.
I've stated our case, and this discussion is over. Anyone reading these posts would recognize I think
it's appropriate to respond in a civil manner within these forums. I've tried to be congenial and
gentlemanly about your ill-mannered and unfounded assertions and accusations. If you can't understand
that, then the question becomes, do you understand anything?
Jim Cotton
Steve Grimm
Jim Cotton wrote:
> Feeback has been positive. You're the only sniper and griper.
I am the only "sniper and griper" who has spoken. The restaurant industry is constantly hurt by "sniper
and gripers" who are dissatisfied but do not speak up and only tell their friends about the bad service or
food. Most discontents only shake their head and walk away. They do not voice their views. The
management thinks they are doing fine because they get compliments from time to time when in reality it is
slowly falling.
> Anyone
> following this thread would insist you to go to the sites and get the facts first before you make such
> wild leaps, accusing folks of spam and scam.
Anyone? I never said it was a scam....spam...yes. I sell Old West items, yet you NEVER see me posting or
promoting these items here. P.T. Barnum was a great promoter and he delivered with Tom Thumb, The Siamese
Twins and Jenny Lind. I would not have seen his show since his intent was transparent. Your intent has a
similar ring.
> I don't know your profession or employment, but accusing people of a scam can land you in court today.
> I'm passing this material on to my lawyers in Whitefish for their review. How would you like to have
> your business attacked with unfounded, unproved accusations?
I will save your lawyers some shoe leather. Here is my address:
Steve Grimm
1703 E. Girard Place #1134
Englewood, CO 80110
> Anyone understanding spamming would dismiss your comment. I notice you're not attacking Mr. Sparks on
> this forum for promoting his western artifacts and imported hides, also a commercial venture. For one,
> I'm glad to know about his business as a source of these decor items.
Anyone? I love it when someone makes a general statement. Your statement about being the savior of
western fiction as some noble cause was the trigger. Mr. Sparks made it clear his direction without any
knee bending attitude.
> Your comment regarding judging clearly indicates you've never been in a critique group. There's no
> accounting for taste with panel judging, assessments can be contradictory, and often judges are not
> qualified to deliver articulate, penetrating decisions. They can be picked on their prestige as a
> writer, their networks as an agent, their interests as a publisher. They may not know the criteria of
> the contests before them until the day they arrive, must sift through the material on a tight schedule,
> and then make snap judgments over often thousands of entries
> You call this fair? Why not have one guy who's experienced in critique, has thought long and deeply
> about what he's looking for, and renders thorough and careful reading of each entry at least twice.
> Winners are given a third reading here to establish final ranking. You don't know how this contest is
> managed, don't want to know, and it's obvious to anyone following this thread, you are one of those
> folks out to trash whatever he can.
Anyone? I pointed out the accounting numbers based on your input. I suspect this shakes your hallowed
ground. Despite the self-imposed view of your qualifications, a panel of judges is still better than one
person's critique. Your examples of faultly panels are a sign that any contest has its faults and does not
always award the qualified. This warning flag should tilt the head of artists who wish to use contests as
a vehicle of recognition.
>I notice your organization is called "disorganized" -- how ironic
>and evidently indicative of your lifestyle and philosophy.
No sense of what a joke is? Did you say you are the sole judge of this contest?
> Anyone following these posts are likely tired of you and your campaign because you 1) won't go to the
> sites and see what we're about; 2) are whining over wild, groundless accusations; 3) can't get the
> facts straight about any of this.
Anyone? The people in this group always draw their own conclusions and are not swayed by me, my view or my
ramblings. My calculations must have hit a nerve along with the subsequent exposure of contests, judging
and the faults with these ventures.
> I've stated our case, and this discussion is over. Anyone reading these posts would recognize I think
> it's appropriate to respond in a civil manner within these forums. I've tried to be congenial and
> gentlemanly about your ill-mannered and unfounded assertions and accusations. If you can't understand
> that, then the question becomes, do you understand anything?
Anyone? You keep saying "groundless", "unfounded", etc. accusations when all my statements were based on
input from you and misleading verbage. As I said, I understand perfectly.