Michael Kelly?
David Wesolowicz
Michael Kelly (Washington Post and Atlantic Monthly) was killed in Iraq when
the military HUM-V he was riding in overturned in water, presumably trapping
him.
I hope it's not true. I've enjoyed reading his writing and admire his
courage in covering the war from the front lines.
RIP
BB
Evan Hulka
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A27396-2003Apr4?language=printer
While I didn't agree with Kelly's ideology, I respect(ed) him for
actually going over there and sticking his neck out, which was far
more than most of his fellow pro-war conservative pundits could say
for themselves.
Hulka
Brian
Sadly the Washington Post has confirmed this.
Sammy Finkelman
This is also in the Drudge Report -where I just found it and looked
for some messages in Usenet. This seems to be the only one maybe.
Drudge links to:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A27396-2003Apr4.html
This article by Howard Kurtz in the Washington Post is dated 12:40
P.M.
I thought it was Michael Kelly who knew something significant about
Bill Clinton (except that he got doiverted into writing about other
things)
I checked in my archives and indeed it was Michael Kelly who was the
source of the following quotation:
<< Clinton's career began while he was still a student at Hot Springs
High School, where he was president of his junior class, the Beta Club
(for academic achievers) and the Kiwanis Key Club. By his late teens,
Clinton was already a semi-professional politician, so greatly in
demand
as a civics club speaker and leader of charitable fund drives that his
high-school principal had to limit his engagements in order to protect
his schooling. >>
- Article by Michael Kelly in the New York Times Magazine of
July 31, 1994, page 25.
Now what's the point about this?
Bill Clinton was a << leader of charitable fund drives >>
But now read this (I have tosay this is something that Michael Kelly
probably never found)
<< In his later years, he was a big contributor to charities,
particularly for young people. >>
- Associated Press obituary of Hot Springs, Arkansas resident
"retired"
gangster Owen Vincent (Owney the Killer) Madden in the Saturday,
April 24, 1965 New York Times.
Putting two and two together, what does this mean? It means that Bill
Clinton was raising money from Vincent Owen (Owney the Killer) Madden.
Who was Owney "the Killer" Madden?
<< Here, because Owney Madden is so unknown and was so important for
the history of crime in America, we must pause and describe certain
things about him. He was the big stick that allowed [Damon] Runyon to
loll with the worst murderers. In turn, Runyon made him the founder of
organized crime in America. Upon hearing this phrase, people have a
clear vision of some evil young Italian with overwhelming wisdom who
comes stalking out of the hills of Sicily, murders everybody in
Brooklyn,
and, at the end, sits down in a boardroom and tells other gangsters,
who are dressed like bankers, that they should never sell drugs.
"We shall never sell oil," John D. Rockefeller always said.
Organized crime in America, however, was born with an English accent.
Owney Madden was born on December 18, 1891, of immigrant Irish parents
at 25 Somerset Street, North Leeds, at that time dreary wool-mill city
in the northern Midlands of England. He was birth number 202 for the
district, as noted by registrar Isaac J. Bloomfield. His father was
Francis Madden, a cloth dresser, and his mother's name was Mary
Madden,
formerly O'Neil. The Maddens lived in an industrial row house and the
father worked as a cloth dresser in a sweatshop. . . . .
- Damon Runyon, A Life by Jimmy Breslin (Ticknor and Fields, 1991)
pages
107, 109, 110.
Now Jimmy Breslin's writing is very impressionistic and novelistic, as
I
think you can tell even from just this excerpt, and it is a little bit
difficult to tell what is really solid in here and what is not. But he
has no ax to grind.
That book was published in 1991 and does not mention Bill Clinton's
name and in fact Jimmy Breslin is a Democrat whose second wife (his
first wife died maybe 25 years ago) was a member of the New York City
Council.
I believe that there is something to it when he says that Owney Madden
was the founder of organized crime in America. If he wasn't exactly
that, he was probably something pretty close to that.
That man was Bill Clinton's political godfather.
Whilehe didn't know that, he did know some things. You wouldexpect him
therefore to be against Clinton. And indeed, that's exactly what
Howard Kurtz writes in the Washington Post today:
<< As a columnist, Kelly was a caustic conservative who was merciless
in his criticism of Bill Clinton and Al Gore and was generally
supportive of President Bush, especially on foreign policy. In 1997,
New Republic owner Martin Peretz, a close friend of Gore, fired Kelly
as the magazine's editor over his continuing attacks on the Clinton
administration. >>
He was now working for the Washington Post, a newspaper that has done
alot of covering up for Clinton.(Hiring him would be a way to get him
towrite about other matters)
Of course now I have to wonder if he belongs on the Clinton death list
and if this accident wasn'tr an accident maybe.
No details as to the accident yet.
Just this:
<< Michael Kelly, 46, the Atlantic Monthly editor-at-large and
Washington Post columnist who abandoned the safety of editorial
offices to cover the war in Iraq, has been killed in a Humvee accident
while traveling with the Army's 3rd Infantry Division.>>
Kelly is survived by his wife, Madelyn, and
Bob Champ
Bob Champ
First U.S. Journalist Killed in Iraq War
By JONATHAN D. SALANT, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - Michael Kelly, editor-at-large for The Atlantic Monthly
and columnist, was killed while on assignment covering the war in Iraq
(news - web sites). He is the first American journalist to die in the
conflict.
Kelly, also a hard-hitting conservative columnist for The Washington
Post and a former editor of The New Republic, died Thursday night
while traveling with the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division as it moved
across Iraq, according to a statement issued by Atlantic Media.
The 46-year-old, who had also covered the first Persian Gulf war (news
- web sites), was the first journalist to die among the 600 embedded
with the U.S. armed forces. Three foreign journalists have been killed
covering the war, two from the United Kingdom and one from Australia.
Neither the Defense Department nor Atlantic Media provided details
about Kelly's death. However, The Washington Post, on its Web site,
said Kelly was killed in a Humvee accident.
In his final column for The Post published Thursday, Kelly wrote about
accompanying an Army task force as it captured a bridge across the
Euphrates River.
"On the western side of the bridge, Lt. Col. Ernest "Rock" Marcone,
commander of Task Force 3-69, stood in the sand by the side of the
road, smoking a cigar and drinking a cup of coffee," Kelly wrote.
"Marcone's soldiers say he deeply likes to win, and he seemed quietly
happy.... We now hold the critical ground through which the rest of
the division can pass and engage and destroy the Republican Guard,"
Marcone said."
Kelly was fired as editor of The New Republic, a weekly political
journal, in 1997 by owner Martin Peretz, a friend and former teacher
of then-Vice President Al Gore (news - web sites). Peretz objected to
what he felt was the magazine's constant criticism of the Clinton
administration, especially in Kelly's regular column.
Kelly became a columnist for the Post and continued to criticize
Clinton. Around the same time, he was hired as the editor of National
Journal, a weekly magazine that covers the federal government. When
the Journal's owner, David Bradley, bought The Atlantic Monthly in
1999, he named Kelly editor of the venerable magazine.
Last September, Kelly stepped down from that post and took the title
editor-at-large. He is also chief editorial adviser to the Journal.
Before taking the helm of The New Republic, Kelly was a reporter for
The New York Times and a writer and editor at The New Yorker.
He covered the first Persian Gulf War as a stringer for The Boston
Globe, GQ and The New Republic, as well as the Iraq-Kurdish conflict
that followed it. He won a National Magazine Award and an Overseas
Press Club award for his articles, and later wrote a book based on his
reporting, "Martyr's Day: Chronicle of a Small War."
A native of Washington, D.C., Kelly was the son of two journalists —
Thomas Kelly, a former reporter, and Marguerite Kelly, who writes the
syndicated column, "Family Almanac." Kelly is survived by his wife,
Madelyn, and two sons, Tom, 6, and Jack, 3.
"David Wesolowicz" <dweso...@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:<m0ija.1880$kd1.1...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>...
Sammy Finkelman
> I heard a report on the local radio station (WLS - Chicago) that reporter
Kelly apparently was on that tank that went into the canaltaht we
heard about a yesterday or this morning.
But at first it was reported that nobody died:
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/news/1049460996217010.xml
<< Two other soldiers were gravely injured after their Humvee rolled
into a canal. >>
- Cleveland Plain Dealer this morning.
WINS (New York City radio station with a VERY good news web site) has
a link to an AP article dated today 1:40 P.M. http://www.1010wins is
their website.
It seems like the information came from The Atlantic and they gave no
details of his death.
But wouldn't the Washington Post know more? Monthly magazines can't
publish daily reports of war correspondents so they mujst have been in
closer contact with him, I would think. The Washinbgton Post has a
fraction more. Official information has something taht appears
tomatch:
<< Navy Lt. Herlinda Rojas, a spokeswoman at the Coalition Press
Information Center in Kuwait City, said a soldier and a reporter were
killed near Baghdad when a Humvee went into a canal. Neither were
identified by Rojas. Military officials said they believed it was an
accident and not the result of combat.>>
The AP appears all over the place so there should be no problem about
putting the whole article (of great news value) here:
First U.S. Journalist Killed in Iraq War
By JONATHAN D. SALANT
Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Michael Kelly, editor-at-large for The Atlantic
Monthly, was killed while on assignment covering the war in Iraq. He
is the first American journalist to die in the conflict.
Kelly, also an iconoclastic columnist for The Washington Post and a
former editor of The New Republic, died Thursday night while traveling
with the U.S. Army's 3rd Infantry Division as it moved across Iraq,
according to a statement issued by Atlantic Media.
President Bush "expresses his sorrow and his condolences to the Kelly
family," White House press secretary Ari Fleischer said.
Atlantic Monthly owner David Bradley said the magazine "has had 145
years of good times and bad, but no moment more deeply sad than this
one now."
The 46-year-old Kelly, who also covered the first Gulf War, is the
fifth journalist to die in the war and the first among the 600
embedded with U.S. armed forces.
Atlantic Media provided no details about Kelly's death. The Washington
Post, on its Web site, said Kelly was killed in a Humvee accident.
Navy Lt. Herlinda Rojas, a spokeswoman at the Coalition Press
Information Center in Kuwait City, said a soldier and a reporter were
killed near Baghdad when a Humvee went into a canal. Neither were
identified by Rojas. Military officials said they believed it was an
accident and not the result of combat.
Last month, Kelly told ABC News that he did not consider his Iraq
assignment overly dangerous. "There is some element of danger," he
said, "but you're surrounded by an Army, literally, who is going to
try very hard to keep you out of danger."
Kelly's final column for the Post was published Thursday. In it, he
wrote about accompanying an Army task force as it captured a bridge
across the Euphrates River.
"On the western side of the bridge, Lt. Col. Ernest `Rock' Marcone,
commander of Task Force 3-69, stood in the sand by the side of the
road, smoking a cigar and drinking a cup of coffee," Kelly wrote.
"Marcone's soldiers say he deeply likes to win, and he seemed quietly
happy. ... `We now hold the critical ground through which the rest of
the division can pass and engage and destroy the Republican Guard,'"
Marcone said.
A native of Washington, D.C., Kelly was the son of two journalists -
Thomas Kelly, a former reporter, and Marguerite Kelly, who writes the
syndicated column, "Family Almanac."
Kelly was fired as editor of The New Republic, a weekly political
journal, in 1997 by owner Martin Peretz, a friend and former teacher
of then-Vice President Al Gore. Peretz objected to what he felt was
the magazine's constant criticism of the Clinton administration,
especially in Kelly's regular column.
Kelly became a columnist for the Post and continued to criticize
Clinton. Around the same time, he was hired as the editor of National
Journal, a weekly magazine that covers the federal government. When
the Journal's owner, David Bradley, bought The Atlantic Monthly in
1999, he named Kelly editor of the venerable magazine.
Last September, Kelly stepped down from that post and took the title
editor-at-large. He is also chief editorial adviser to the Journal.
Before taking the helm of The New Republic, Kelly was a reporter for
The New York Times and a writer and editor at The New Yorker.
He covered the first Gulf War as a stringer for The Boston Globe, GQ
and The New Republic, as well as the Iraq-Kurdish conflict that
followed it. He won a National Magazine Award and an Overseas Press
Club award for his articles, and later wrote a book based on his
reporting, "Martyr's Day: Chronicle of a Small War."
Kelly is survived by his wife, Madelyn, and two sons, Tom, 6, and
Jack, 3.
---
On the Net:
Recent Michael Kelly columns:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/opinion/columns/kellymichael
The Atlantic Monthly: http://www.theatlantic.com
Andy Carol
Finkelman <sammy.f...@relaynet.org> wrote:
> Kelly apparently was on that tank that went into the canaltaht we
> heard about a yesterday or this morning.
A Humvee is not a tank. I believe there were two seperate accidents.
--- Andy
kathy
Kathy C
Marty Feldman
al gore was strongly opposed to this war, for among other reasons, it
brings about so much death and destruction. now, kelly himself is
dead, another casuality of war and with all its ramifications that no
one can possibly foresee except that it kills people randomly without
rhyme, reason or mercy. yet another terrible banality born of war.
again.
Enter Gore, Bold Man On the Left
By Michael Kelly
Wednesday, November 20, 2002; Page A25
A terrible banality is born. Again.
The rollout of the new, putatively 2004, model Gore is now well
underway, with the usual sort of campaign that has included the usual
sort of interviews that are, in the context of politics, "revealing,"
and the publication of the usual sort of book that is, in the same
relative terms, "serious."
What will attract the most immediate attention about the new Al Gore
are the "revealing" parts. To sum up, Gore still thinks he was robbed
in 2000, in the unpleasantness his wife, Tipper, likes to call "when
we won but the Supreme Court decided we couldn't serve." He is still
magnanimous to himself in defeat, still much given to giving himself
much credit for, sort of, accepting reality.
"I could have handled the whole thing differently and instead of
making a concession speech, launched a four-year, rear-guard guerrilla
campaign to undermine the legitimacy of the Bush presidency. . . . And
there was no shortage of advice to do that," Gore told The Post. But
that would be wrong: "I just didn't feel like it was in the best
interest of the United States, or that it was a responsible course of
action." Yes, Gore could have refused to recognize the peaceful
transfer of power upon which our democracy rests and instead waged a
"guerrilla" campaign to "undermine the legitimacy" of the elected
government of his nation, simply hurting that nation and not
incidentally destroying what was left of his career and reputation. He
chose not to. Thanks.
What is much more interesting lies in the "serious" realm. Here a new
Gore really is emerging, or reemerging. This is not the Vice President
Gore of the centrist-positioning Clinton White House, not the
reinventor of government. This is the Gore of "Earth in the Balance":
Gore, the thinker of big thoughts; Gore, the visionary; Gore, the
radical; Gore, the bold man of the left.
The unsubtle Gore made his initial move with a strategy declaration
that, henceforth and in implicit contrast with his posture of 2000, he
would "speak from the heart and let the chips fall where they may." He
followed this with strident but incoherent attacks on President Bush
over the handling of the war on terrorism and the economy, and, most
recently, with the pronouncement that Gore had "reluctantly come to
the conclusion" that the solution to the "impending crisis" in
American health care was the "single-payer national health insurance
plan" -- the idea he savaged his 2000 Democratic primary opponent,
Bill Bradley, for supporting.
But the big heave in the effort to reposition Gore as the holder of
large, lefty ideas on policy comes in the new book written by Gore and
his wife, "Joined at the Heart: The Transformation of the American
Family." Like "Earth in the Balance," "Joined at the Heart" is
self-consciously grand in intent and self-consciously radical, a
manifesto for sweeping change at a fundamental level. Also, similarly,
it is an intellectual mess, a shallow and aggressively disingenuous,
themeless pudding of fashionable-left articles of faith unsupported by
foundations of fact.
Do not, please, take my word for this. Rather, read the polite but
utterly scathing review of the Gores' book by the leftist (but
serious, not "serious") political scientist Andrew Hacker in the
current issue of the New York Review of Books. The political point of
"Joined at the Heart" is to align Gore with what he must see as the
coming new liberalism, a liberalism of essentially aesthetic values,
the chief of which is an abhorrence of moral judgment. So, "Joined at
the Heart" is an extended celebration of what the Gores call "new
family forms," in which the family is bravely and newly seen not in
the old moralistic Mom-and-Dad terms, but as "a group of people who
love and care about each other, regardless of blood relation or
marital status."
The problem with this is the preponderance of evidence that the old
Mom-and-Dad model is the only one that, speaking generally, really
works -- in terms of taking care of children, building a constructive
society and broadly advancing the happiness of the species.
No matter, as Hacker notes again and again, "Joined at the Heart"
insists, again and again, on ignoring and even distorting this
evidence to support an argument that is about as complex and about as
true as a bumper sticker: "We are family."
So this, apparently, is where Gore thinks he's going: Full speed ahead
into the waters of cultural wars that no one else (including George W.
Bush) is interested in fighting, in support of a left-radical
redefinition of family values at considerable variance with available
evidence and general opinion.
You go, Al.
4dtvman
I hate to be a bearer of bad news but it is indeed true. It is posted
on the Washington Post website as well as several others including CNN
this afternoon. I just read his last article in my local newspaper
today at lunchtime and then saw the news of his death on the internet
this afternoon.
I didn't agree with his fierce hawkish stand on going to war with Iraq
and his recent colmumns often made me angry, but I still read them
anyway and I will miss him just the same. You don't have to agree with
someone in order to have respect for them. RIP, Michael.
PirateJohn
>transfer of power upon which our democracy rests and instead waged a
>"guerrilla" campaign to "undermine the legitimacy" of the elected
>government of his nation, simply hurting that nation and not
>incidentally destroying what was left of his career and reputation. He
>chose not to. Thanks.
>
More of the fascist right in this country should realize that Al Gore was
gracious in stepping away from the presidency. In hindsight, having seen that
the Dubya administration would trample on the rights and desires of the
majority of Americans, and make zero concessions to the people in the middle
and on the left, it's too bad that Gore didn't tie up Dufus in court for 4
years.
~~~~~~~
"fas-cism (fbsh'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a
dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of
state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pirat...@aol.com
Keeper of the Humour List at http://members.aol.com/PirateJohn/pirate1.html
"Mother, mother ocean... I have heard your call" - Jimmy Buffett, A Pirate
Looks At Forty.
James Hall
"kathy" <kath...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1b9e7865.03040...@posting.google.com...
Not to mentiuon the WAR and cnn as a ??reporting?? source REAL
SAD, eh ?
JHall.
James Hall
JHall.
"Sammy Finkelman" <sammy.f...@relaynet.org> wrote in message
news:f5161c72.03040...@posting.google.com...
James Hall
??????leadership?????? ?
A couple of holy rollers - dam they should be campaigning in
JAMACIA. Hey isn't that one of the hahahaha coalition hahahaha
nations ?
JHall.
"Marty Feldman" <n2the...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e65c3393.03040...@posting.google.com...
Maggie
>>transfer of power upon which our democracy rests and instead waged a
>>"guerrilla" campaign to "undermine the legitimacy" of the elected
>>government of his nation, simply hurting that nation and not
>>incidentally destroying what was left of his career and reputation. He
>>chose not to. Thanks.
>>
>More of the fascist right in this country should realize that Al Gore was
>gracious in stepping away from the presidency. In hindsight, having seen
>that
>the Dubya administration would trample on the rights and desires of the
>majority of Americans, and make zero concessions to the people in the middle
>and on the left, it's too bad that Gore didn't tie up Dufus in court for
>4
>years.
***How? By appealing to the Supremest Court?
Maggie
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded
state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is
much worse." -- John Stuart Mill
Steve Miller - A Famous Rock Star!
>While I didn't agree with Kelly's ideology, I respect(ed) him for
>actually going over there and sticking his neck out, which was far
>more than most of his fellow pro-war conservative pundits could say
>for themselves.
Given that he had two small children, ages 3 and 6, I have absolutely no respect for his "sticking his neck
out." He was not out there fighting actively for their future. He was covering the war, and there are hundreds
of others who could have done that job. By putting himself in harm's way - and he asked to be in the front
lines, too - he committed what I consider to be a form of child abuse.
A sad day for journalism, an avoidable tragedy for his family.
--
Steve Miller
Editor and Chief Copyboy
Goodbye! The Journal of Contemporary Obituaries - http://www.goodbyemag.com
If in NYC, buy the Sun and read the obits!
Terrymelin
>>transfer of power upon which our democracy rests and instead waged a
>>"guerrilla" campaign to "undermine the legitimacy" of the elected
>>government of his nation, simply hurting that nation and not
>>incidentally destroying what was
Actually for more than a month that is exactly what Al Gore did.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>war, and there are hundreds
>of others who could have done that job. By putting himself in harm's way -
>and he asked to be in the front
>lines, too - he committed what I consider to be a form of child abuse.
Boy, what a sad hateful person you are. Dancing all over a man's grave and
accusing him of a crime on the very day that he died just for doing his job.
You need to seek some serious medical attention.
Terry Ellsworth
MadCow57
I consider your remark to be a form of blaming the victim.
MadCow57
He could, but he'd have to wait until 2004.
Wendy Chatley Green
:>>By putting himself in harm's way - and he asked to be in the front lines, too
:- he committed what I consider to be a form of child abuse.<< -- Steve Miller
:
:I consider your remark to be a form of blaming the victim.
Perhaps, but is the public's "need to know"really more
important these children's need of their father? After all, any
reporter could have filled Kelly's position, but Kelly's being "Dad"
instead of "reporter" would have spared his children his loss.
--
Wendy Chatley Green
wcg...@cris.com
Michael Richmann
One could just as easily have said that of any military test pilot, any
firefighter, cop, etc., etc. or *any* job where the danger level
exceeded the mean.
You can't hide from life...
--
Mike
Wendy Chatley Green
<rich...@concentric.net> wrote:
True, but those professions spend more time on practice and
safety training than on actually being in danger. Reporters in war
appear to have the opposite ratio--more time in danger than in
training for that danger.
Perhaps the news media should require a real boot camp for its
war correspondents so that they are prepared for what they will face.
Michael Richmann
>
> For some inexplicable reasons, Michael Richmann
> <rich...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> :Wendy Chatley Green wrote:
> :>
> :> For some inexplicable reasons, madc...@aol.com (MadCow57) wrote:
> :>
> :> :>>By putting himself in harm's way - and he asked to be in the front lines, too
> :> :- he committed what I consider to be a form of child abuse.<< -- Steve Miller
> :> :
> :> :I consider your remark to be a form of blaming the victim.
> :>
> :> Perhaps, but is the public's "need to know"really more
> :> important these children's need of their father? After all, any
> :> reporter could have filled Kelly's position, but Kelly's being "Dad"
> :> instead of "reporter" would have spared his children his loss.
> :
> :One could just as easily have said that of any military test pilot, any
> :firefighter, cop, etc., etc. or *any* job where the danger level
> :exceeded the mean.
> :
> :You can't hide from life...
>
> True, but those professions spend more time on practice and
> safety training than on actually being in danger. Reporters in war
And they still die on a regular basis. Training notwithstanding, it's
the actuarial odds I'm talking about here.
> appear to have the opposite ratio--more time in danger than in
> training for that danger.
Perhaps. But considering just how Kelly and the soldier got killed, how
would this training have helped?
>
> Perhaps the news media should require a real boot camp for its
> war correspondents so that they are prepared for what they will face.
Should be interesting to see what your proposed curriculum looks like.
--
Mike
Wendy Chatley Green
<rich...@concentric.net> wrote:
:And they still die on a regular basis. Training notwithstanding, it's
:the actuarial odds I'm talking about here.
Right now, the actuarial odds on reporters in this war vs.
firefighters looks bad for the reporters.
My original point (from which I've been pulled) is that Michael Kelly
could have stayed home and been the dad his children need. His choice
deprives them of something irreplacable. That other people fell
called to be in dangerous professions doesn't change that.
Terrymelin
>
> Perhaps, but is the public's "need to know"really more
>important these children's need of their father? After all, any
>reporter could have filled Kelly's position, but Kelly's being "Dad"
>instead of "reporter" would have spared his children his loss.
>
>
>--
>Wendy Chatley Green
>wcg...@cris.com
>
How nice to be able to sit in judgment of fine man like Michael Kelly -- a
great reporter doing his job who died in the line of duty.
How perfect all of you must be to charge him with child abuse.
Sad, pathetic, sick people.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>could have stayed home and been the dad his children need. His choice
>deprives them of something irreplacable. That other people fell
>called to be in dangerous professions doesn't change that.
>
That's true of every single person who is a mother or father in this country or
any other.
Would you have everyone just stay home and do nothing?
What kind bizarro world would that be?
Terry Ellsworth
James Hall
reverse or as they say in the music industry "the flip side of a
riechwinger".
Really you of all people should enjoy this "approach" goose,
gander and goslings, as others would NetspeaK.
What a killjoy you are when others are having at it at someone's
expense while you and some other dickwads delight in the misery
of sooooooooooooooo many others. Let us count the ways.
Naaaaa nevermind it is all so pedantic.
You ain't a "secret" drinker are you ? Ya know, in order to sleep ?
JHall.
"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030405035958...@mb-fy.aol.com...
Michael Richmann
>
> For some inexplicable reasons, Michael Richmann
> <rich...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> :And they still die on a regular basis. Training notwithstanding, it's
> :the actuarial odds I'm talking about here.
>
> Right now, the actuarial odds on reporters in this war vs.
> firefighters looks bad for the reporters.
Does it? According to articles I've seen, Kelly is the first American
reporter to die in this war.
And considering his death was *literally* an accident (I still await
that training curriculum that could have prevented it), the idea that he
should have stayed home is simply preposterous. Following that argument
along, every single member of the military should have been unmarried
and childless before they shipped out to Iraq.
>
> My original point (from which I've been pulled) is that Michael Kelly
> could have stayed home and been the dad his children need. His choice
> deprives them of something irreplacable. That other people fell
> called to be in dangerous professions doesn't change that.
But it certainly speaks to one's personal decision whether to live life
to the fullest or to sit home and let others do it for you.
Some do and some don't but to sit back and call it child abuse just
doesn't stand up in light of the way the world works.
--
Mike
James Hall
"MadCow57" <madc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030405042611...@mb-fv.aol.com...
Ahh come on moomoo cut the pedantic semantic game involving
the word "victim".
Look at it this way - how many people actually fulfill the opportunity
to die as they lived or died as they wished ?
Olde mikie was a HAWK of the first order and for a HAWK
death on a battlefield, any battlefield, has to be most fulfilling
'cause we ALL are goin' to die, eh.
Of course drowning may be viewed as "colateral damge" but what
the heck one is not able to get everything one's own way, eh ?
Losen up a wee bit and view the death of this "victim" in a more
positive light. Hell your nation, with the able assistance of a bunch
of rag-tag third worlders, are hammering the living daylights out
of a another sovereign nation. Go with the flow and eat your
"colateral damage" with honour and dignity.
Hyprocrites, all f you reichwingers, absolutely fine examples of
walkin' talkin' hyprocrites. Hell you make Rex, the walkin', talkin'
dog, look like a piker who is out to fleece a few bucks from a
mark.
JHall.
James Hall
"Wendy Chatley Green" <res0...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:6jit8v0hq3a185f25...@4ax.com...
Wendy, Wendy just HOW does one spare another the loss thru
death ?
The MAJOR point of living is to finally DIE. Embrace this, live
with this and then DIE.
Goodness gracious for all that is precious {or as Pink Floyd sing
"Money"}, oh sorry I digress, please, please stop compartmentalizing
as it is eating society up compartment by compartment {from the
olde adage "Divide And Conquer"}.
Ain't life wondeful ?
JHall.
James Hall
Brilliant just brilliant, however, I believe that this suggestion may
have lacked any serious thought. What are the "ramifications"
of such a proposal ?
Here's a hint: What "makes" cnn really "tick" or more to the point
what makes the owners of cnn wet their pants ?
If you need someone to provide the answer then may I suggest
that if you play the "stock" market then put all your savings into
any corporation that deals in death.
JHall.
James Hall
Gee terry, terry, the very ordinary you sure are able to handle
other's viewpoints, now ain't you.
For someone, anyone toput their JOB ahead of their children may
be, just may be, considered as a form, amnner and/or matter of
abuse.
And seeing the most important "aspect" of this abuse will be
DIRECTED, forever and a day, to/at the children then there may
exist, just may exist, a case for "child abuse".
And as for the friggin' HERO part THANK YOU and you beat
the date of my prediction that olde mikie would soon become
americaaaaaaaaaaaa's latest HERO by 6 full days.
I do believe that a hearty, for all the human americaaaaan fodder
from the heartlands of americaaaaa, congradulations, from every
one of our fellow NG participants, is in order.
Hip hip hooray and CONGRADULATIONS.
Shall we dedicate your triumph to all the dead of this our "guerre du
folly" ?
Ahhh way not eh ?
You are mindnumbingly obtuse - and you wear it well.
Consider this my deepest expression of love to you as in, now, you
are an integral part of our luvfest.
JHall.
Xx Aum Shinri Kyo xX
>For some inexplicable reasons, Michael Richmann
><rich...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>:Wendy Chatley Green wrote:
>:>
>:> For some inexplicable reasons, madc...@aol.com (MadCow57) wrote:
>:>
>:> :>>By putting himself in harm's way - and he asked to be in the front
>lines, too
>:> :- he committed what I consider to be a form of child abuse.<< -- Steve
>Miller
>:> :
>:> :I consider your remark to be a form of blaming the victim.
>:>
>:> Perhaps, but is the public's "need to know"really more
>:> important these children's need of their father? After all, any
>:> reporter could have filled Kelly's position, but Kelly's being "Dad"
>:> instead of "reporter" would have spared his children his loss.
>:
>:One could just as easily have said that of any military test pilot, any
>:firefighter, cop, etc., etc. or *any* job where the danger level
>:exceeded the mean.
>:
>:You can't hide from life...
>
> True, but those professions spend more time on practice and
>safety training than on actually being in danger.
And historically more people in the military die in peacetimetraining than die
during a war. I cannot recall the exact number but I think the USalone has
had close to 12 fatalities in this war from non-combat i.e. traffic accidents,
etc...
Even training for war is a dangerous business.
Reporters in war
>appear to have the opposite ratio--more time in danger than in
>training for that danger.
>
> Perhaps the news media should require a real boot camp for its
>war correspondents so that they are prepared for what they will face.
>
>--
>Wendy Chatley Green
>wcg...@cris.com
----------
Sarin
" Some of Greg's [Gregory Procter <pro...@ihug.co.nz>] best rogering came
under the name of 'Sara' with her literary strap-on coated with sand. Greg
admits to getting verbally ass-fucked by the same girl 3 times." - Chris
Fleitman
Wendy Chatley Green
<rich...@concentric.net> wrote:
:
:Some do and some don't but to sit back and call it child abuse just
:doesn't stand up in light of the way the world works.
Other people used the term "child abuse"; I did not. Mr.
Kelly made his choice. No doubt he did so with the consent of his
wife/the mother of his children and with the knowledge that his being
in Iraqi raised the chances that his children would have to do without
him.
Given the opportunity to have given him my advice, I'd have
said that anything he could report wasn't important enough to leave
his children fatherless. I don't consider reporting anywhere near as
vital as firefighting, military service, etc. Obviously, you do.
We'll have to disagree on this.
James Hall
"Xx Aum Shinri Kyo xX"
> ...
> And historically more people in the military die in peacetimetraining
than die
> during a war.
> ...
EXCUSE US ????
Ahhh americaaaaaans always on top of their FACTS.
JHall.
Michael Richmann
That's your perogative.
OTOH, for those who'd like a bit of perspective on why Kelly thought his
job was important to him, I recommend reading the following...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32094-2003Apr4.html
--
Mike
PirateJohn
>I consider your remark to be a form of blaming the victim.
Welcome to alt.obits, where the deceased are sliced and diced and dignity is
replaced with the gin soaked opinions of small minded peoples.
You must have purchased your selective memory at the same store where Ellsworth
bought his.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pirat...@aol.com
Keeper of the Humour List at http://members.aol.com/PirateJohn/pirate1.html
"Mother, mother ocean... I have heard your call" - Jimmy Buffett, A Pirate
Looks At Forty.
Bill Schenley
> > > > important these children's need of their father? After all,
> > > > any reporter could have filled Kelly's position, but Kelly's
> > > > being "Dad" instead of "reporter" would have spared his
> > > > children his loss.
Just a guess ... but I think Kelly was a journalist *first*. If he
had
been a "dad" first ... he would have been a reporter in Podunk,
<insert any state>. He did what he did ... He went where he went ...
because that's who and what he was ... *first*.
I respect his decision to go to Iraq. I didn't always like what he
wrote ... but he wrote it with passion ... and *facts* as *he* saw
them.
> > > One could just as easily have said that of any military test
> > > pilot, any firefighter, cop, etc., etc. or *any* job where the
> > > danger level exceeded the mean.
> > > You can't hide from life...
> > True, but those professions spend more time on practice and
> > safety training than on actually being in danger. Reporters in
> > war
> And they still die on a regular basis. Training notwithstanding,
> it's the actuarial odds I'm talking about here.
I read somewhere, and I can't remember where, that war
correspondent was one of the ten most dangerous professions.
More so than police officer or firefighter.
> > appear to have the opposite ratio--more time in danger than in
> > training for that danger.
> Perhaps. But considering just how Kelly and the soldier got killed,
> how would this training have helped?
> > Perhaps the news media should require a real boot camp for its
> > war correspondents so that they are prepared for what they will
> > face.
> Should be interesting to see what your proposed curriculum looks
> like.
"Over the past decade, two British firms staffed
by former soldiers, Centurion and AKE Ltd.,
opened shop, offering five-day courses in
surviving dangerous environments, including first
aid, dealing with kidnapers, recognizing military
activity and spotting booby traps. However, the
principal clientele have been British news media
and CNN. Schork had gone through the Centurion
training course, and Moreno apparently had not.
No such course is offered in the United States.
American journalism schools, with the exception of
the University of California, Berkeley, and possibly
one other, do not educate their students in covering
conflict nor in the laws of war, which can help
reporters spot war crimes when they see them."
FROM:
MadCow57
need of their father? After all, any reporter could have filled Kelly's
position, but Kelly's being "Dad" instead of "reporter" would have spared his
children his loss.<< -- Wendy
True, but on the other hand people like you could refrain from second-guessing
a decision that was Michael Kelly's to make, not your.
>>Perhaps the news media should require a real boot camp for its
war correspondents so that they are prepared for what they will face.<< --
Wendy
They did - for embedded reporters at least. Note that Geraldo Rivera was NOT
embedded and received NO training. He just showed up without guidance about
what not to say that would endanger our troops.
>>Would you have everyone just stay home and do nothing?<< -- Terry Ellsworth
Right, but more to the point is the question "would you have NG posters telling
reporters what they should and should not do?"
>>How nice to be able to sit in judgment of fine man like Michael Kelly<< --
Terry Ellsworth
That's it. Fourteen posts later, but correct.
Cpl. O'Reilly
Green <res0...@verizon.net> wrote:
> My original point (from which I've been pulled) is that Michael Kelly
> could have stayed home and been the dad his children need. His choice
> deprives them of something irreplacable. That other people fell
> called to be in dangerous professions doesn't change that.
I saw a piece in the online Washington Post a while ago (it had to do
with the murder of Daniel Pearl, so this was Feb last year). It said
that newsroom opinion of such a case was that there were great risks to
reporters in some places, and sometimes they had to take those risks,
but you stopped going to those places and taking those risks once the
babies started coming. So I think your average newsie might agree with
you. This is no way is a slam at Michael Kelly, who put his ass on the
line so people at home could get the news.
Rich Clancey
month will reveal that he mistakenly believed the
Rumsfeld Doctrine, that our superior level of complex
weapons would ensure a short and relatively bloodless
war. I don't think he expected anything like resistance
from the Iraqis.
--
rich clancey r...@world.std.com