Grammy Lifetime Acheivement Award
Terrymelin
earlier this year. How nice that they waited until his death to give it to him.
They had 87 years to honor him. I guess they were too busy honoring Garth
Brooks.
Terry Ellsworth
Matthew Hubbard
>
> ...the great Perry Como...
All of Terry's disgusting, hide-bound, bigoted and foolish
opinions now make sense. Terry suffers from RFS, a well-documented
syndrome known to teachers everywhere and sometimes known by its full
name, Rock Fucking Stupidity.
MattH
Boron Elgar
Don't be silly. The complete list of the awards is here:
http://www.grammy.com/awards/lifetime.html
A lot of people get honored after their deaths, including John Lennon
11 years after his.
Boron
Terrymelin
>11 years after his.
>
>Boron
Well, that's equally stupid but more understandable. Lennon was 40 and would
have been expected to have more "life" ahead of him. Como was past 70 for the
past 17 years and could easily have been honored while he was alive to enjoy
it.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
shouldn't have been honored while he was alive. I guess you think all those 30
and 40 year old drugged-out rock stars are more deserving.
Terry Ellsworth
Hyfler/Rosner
"Terrymelin" <terry...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20011212163954...@mb-da.aol.com...
Correcting the spelling mistake in the header. I before E except after
C....
Sam Yorko
>
> Correcting the spelling mistake in the header. I before E except after
> C....
Except in Budweiser
Janice Brooks
Como's name may have been under consideration before but with his passing folks
took notice of his credits
BUS Janice http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/3886/index.html
Moderator(country music) Steel Guitar Forum
http://www.steelguitarforum.com/
Matthew Kruk
I'll drink to that.
Matthew Hubbard
It is German; they go either way, and ei is pronounced "eye"
while ie is pronounced "ee". German, like most of the major continental
European languages, has an internally consistent pronunciation system,
unlike a certain Mother Tongue of most of the folks here which shall
remain nameless.
MattH
MadCow57
I was taught it as "I before E except after C and in words like 'neighbor' and
'weigh'" which always seemed to me a little open-ended to be a real rule.
>>Except in Budweiser<< -- Sam Yorko
Uh huh. And now I like it more as "I before E except after C and in words like
'neighbor' and 'Budweiser'." That has a more "come on over" ring to it, doncha
think?
mommadona
barbering...won't hear stories like that anymore! I would think he would be
embarrassed to accept such a shallow honor.
Steve Bacher
> I was taught it as "I before E except after C and in words like 'neighbor' and
> 'weigh'" which always seemed to me a little open-ended to be a real rule.
You left out the third line of the quatrain:
"or when sounded like A"
which makes it less open-ended... but even so, there are still
some words that are, well, weird.
- seb
Terrymelin
deserving to be on the dustbin of history with all the other non-entities?"
How anyone could be filled with such hate towards Mr. Como is beyond me. Of
course, we are talking about you -- the original hater.
Terry Ellsworth
Boron Elgar
Nominations came from voting NARAS members (I am one). I would wager
that a goodly number of the members were born after Perry Como went
off the air & knew him by name only or from parents' or grandparents'
record collections. His death may have re-kindled some memories in a
certain proportion of the members & he got enough write-ins/votes to
make it past preliminary rounds.
One of the reasons I used Lennon as an example, was that he got the
nod in 91. There had been much talk during 1990 of the 10th
anniversary of his death. This may have contributed to a heightened
awareness & given him a boost that year.
Basically, if you look through the winners, there is little rhyme nor
reason why someone got it one year & someone else the next. Chuck
Berry got it before Leonard Bernstein, Aretha earlier than Judy
Garland. Is any one of these better than another? More deserving? More
alive? Dead Longer? It just happens. I wouldn't put too much stock in
any of it.
Go take a look through the Presidential Medal of Freedom Awards
recipient list & tell me some rationale for any of that insofar as
someone getting it at any particular time. They can be posthumous,
too.
Boron
Matthew Hubbard
>
> Gosh, Matt, why don't you post that nasty e-mail you sent me about
> "Perry Como deserving to be on the dustbin of history with all the
> other non-entities?"
Sorry to have sent you e-mail; I meant to post it. Here it is.
=======================================
Terrymelin wrote:
>
> Only someone as close-minded as Old Mother Hubbard would think that
> Perry Como shouldn't have been honored while he was alive.
Perry Como is where he belongs, on the dustbin of history like
other hot-selling non-entities of their day, Dick Haymes, Andy Williams
and Jerry Vale to name a few. The reason this crap is as relevant as
Rudy Vallee today is that, after a few great songwriters at the top of
the heap, so much of the material from the '40s and '50s is absolute
dreck; the best of singer-songwriters - starting with Chuck Berry and
Buddy Holly and continuing with Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye, the
Beatles, the Stones, the Who, The Beach Boys, etc. - continue to be
relevant today because the music is still top notch.
MattH
Louis Epstein
Yeah,but next thing you know you'll get seized in a weird heist.
-=-=-
The World Trade Center towers MUST rise again,
at least as tall as before...or terror has triumphed.
Bill Schenley
after
> :> > C....
> :> Except in Budweiser
> : I'll drink to that.
> Yeah,but next thing you know you'll get seized in a weird heist.
Should you get feisty enough to try this, feign a religious
conversion and seek out a deity. Otherwise, you could get
leistered in the keister. Either way, neither is appealing.
Michael DiCola
Seeing wherein neither weirdly-veiled sovereign deigned agreeing, their
feisty heirs, leisurely eyeing eight heinous deity-freightened reindeer
sleighs, counterfeited spontaneity, freeing rein (reveille, neighing!);
forfeited obeisance, fleeing neighborhood. Kaleidoscopically-veined foreign
heights being seized, either reigned, sleight surfeited, therein; reinvented
skein-dyeing; reiteratedly inveighed, feigning weighty seismological
reinforcement. Any beings decreeing such ogreish, albeit nonpareil,
homogeneity must be nucleic protein-deficient from sautéing pharmacopoeial
caffeine and codeine!
I before e, except after c?
Oh, what a weird society!
Robert R. Feigel
And Feigel, which is pronounced Pheye-ggel.
I've heard it pronounced Feyegell, Freigull, Seagull, Freegull,
Fargel, Fido and so on for so many years that I answer to just about
anything that sounds even close.
But there are limits. A few years ago when my wife and I were looking
for a property on Waiheke Island (in the Hauraki Gulf near Auckland),
New Zealand, we ran into a lady named Mrs Hodge who insisted on
calling me Mr Fiegel (pronounced Pheeeggell - and not fagala thank
you). Even after I told her that 'ei' was pronounced 'eye' and 'ie'
eee, she wouldn't budge and informed me that my family had been
pronouncing their name incorrectly all these years. She was a rather
large woman, so when we left I made a point of thanking Mrs 'Huge' for
letting us see her lovely 'horse'.
bob <spelled correctly>
"Once you have large family, all other troubles mean nothing." - Charlie Chan
Tregembo
Matthew Hubbard <mhub...@csuhayward.edu>
> Perry Como is where he belongs, on the dustbin of history like
> other hot-selling non-entities of their day, Dick Haymes, Andy Williams
> and Jerry Vale to name a few. The reason this crap is as relevant as
> Rudy Vallee today is that, after a few great songwriters at the top of
> the heap, so much of the material from the '40s and '50s is absolute
> dreck; the best of singer-songwriters - starting with Chuck Berry and
> Buddy Holly and continuing with Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye, the
> Beatles, the Stones, the Who, The Beach Boys, etc. - continue to be
> relevant today because the music is still top notch.
>
> MattH
Jesus Matt, who pissed on your cornflakes. There are so many things wrong
with your premise I don't know where to begin.
Including Como with Haymes, Williams and Vale and then comparing them to
Valle?
There is no more or less musical dreck in any decade of the last century,
it's just age and taste that sets them apart. And it's not the crap that's
relevant, it's the great songs from the great composers and the great
artists.
And, while it is unfair to compare just singers with singer-songwriters,
none of the great contemporary songwriter-singers you mentioned are
musically relevant today, they're musically relevant memories. Como's top
hits, his TV series, his Christmas specials, his concerts, his career
longevity - Christ, the man was still hit the high notes on "Oh Holy Night"
at 80 - not to mention his wonderful humanity, set him in the top echelons
of contemporary musical performers.
Oh yeah, Merry Christmas.
Ray Arthur
Terrymelin
>
>Ray Arthur
We finally found something to agree upon Ray! Happy Holidays!
Terry Ellsworth
Tregembo
Is that JUST the Merry Christmas part, or does it also include the Como
comments? Because if we were to agree on two separate topics at the same
time I'd start to be concerned :)
Ray
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Boron Elgar <boron_elgar@"warm"mail.com>
wrote:
> >The Grammys have announced they will give one to the great Perry Como
> >who died earlier this year. How nice that they waited until his death
> >to give it to him. They had 87 years to honor him. I guess they were
> >too busy honoring Garth Brooks.
>
> >Terry Ellsworth
>
> Don't be silly. The complete list of the awards is here:
>
> http://www.grammy.com/awards/lifetime.html
Perry Como had a magnificent voice, and all, but no way no how does he
belong on this list (neither does Garth Brooks, who does not appear on
it):
Aretha Franklin Art Tatum
Artur Rubinstein Arturo Toscanini
Barbra Streisand Beach Boys
Benny Carter Benny Goodman
Bessie Smith Bill Evans
Bill Monroe Billie Holiday
Bing Crosby Bo Diddley
Bob Dylan Bob Marley
Buddy Holly Charles Mingus
Charlie Parker Chet Atkins
Chuck Berry Curtis Mayfield
Dave Brubeck Dizzy Gillespie
Duke Ellington Ella Fitzgerald
Elvis Presley Enrico Caruso
Everly Brothers Fats Domino
Fats Waller Frank Sinatra
Frank Zappa Fred Astaire
Georg Solti Harry Belafonte
Henry Mancini Igor Stravinsky
Irving Berlin Isaac Stern
James Brown Jascha Heifetz
Jimi Hendrix John Coltrane
John Lee Hooker John Lennon
Johnny Cash Judy Garland
Kitty Wells Lena Horne
Leonard Bernstein Leontyne Price
Little Richard Louis Armstrong
Mahalia Jackson Marian Anderson
Marvin Gaye Mel Tormé
Miles Davis Mitch Miller
Muddy Waters Oscar Peterson
Otis Redding Pablo Casals
Patsy Cline Paul Robeson
Peggy Lee Pete Seeger
Ray Charles Rolling Stones
Roy Acuff Roy Orbison
Sam Cooke Sarah Vaughan
Smokey Robinson Stephane Grappelli
Stevie Wonder The Who
Thelonious Monk Tony Bennett
Vladimir Horowitz Willie Nelson
Woody Guthrie Woody Herman
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / bal...@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Terrymelin
>comments? Because if we were to agree on two separate topics at the same
>time I'd start to be concerned :)
>
>Ray
Both!
TE
Terrymelin
>belong on this list (neither does Garth Brooks, who does not appear on
>it):
Perry would be my choice before more than half of the silly names on that list.
Terry Ellsworth
Tregembo
I totally agree with my new best friend.
Ray Arthur
Terrymelin
>
>Ray Arthur
Hear, Hear!
Terry Ellsworth
Matthew Hubbard
>
> Matthew Hubbard <mhub...@csuhayward.edu>
>
> > Perry Como is where he belongs, on the dustbin of history
> > like other hot-selling non-entities of their day, Dick Haymes, Andy
> > Williams and Jerry Vale to name a few. The reason this crap is as
> > relevant as Rudy Vallee today is that, after a few great songwriters
> > at the top of the heap, so much of the material from the '40s and
>
> Including Como with Haymes, Williams and Vale and then comparing them
They are all white boys who just didn't get it; Vallee is just
a generation earlier.
> And, while it is unfair to compare just singers with
> singer-songwriters, none of the great contemporary songwriter-singers
> you mentioned are musically relevant today, they're musically relevant
> memories.
People are still covering their tunes and ripping off their
riffs. That is their relevance; the second-rate whitebread singers are
completely extinct in terms their effect on any style of music today. On
Ken Burns' "Jazz", several of the talking heads bemoaned Louis
Armstrong's decision to work with so many popular musicians who were
second-rate late in his career. To drive this point home, they showed
an old TV appearance of Armstrong with... Perry Como.
It's beginning to look a lot like Kwanza, everywhere you go,
MattH
Boron Elgar
<mhub...@csuhayward.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Including Como with Haymes, Williams and Vale and then comparing them
>> to Vallee?
>
> They are all white boys who just didn't get it; Vallee is just
>a generation earlier.
Didn't get what? You mean they didn't sing your favorite style or
composer? Are you making some sly racist remark? If the latter is the
case, show your balls and let it be debated.
>> And, while it is unfair to compare just singers with
>> singer-songwriters, none of the great contemporary songwriter-singers
>> you mentioned are musically relevant today, they're musically relevant
>> memories.
>
> People are still covering their tunes and ripping off their
>riffs.
People still cover Hildegard von Bingen, too. What exactly is your
point?
>That is their relevance; the second-rate whitebread singers are
>completely extinct in terms their effect on any style of music today. On
>Ken Burns' "Jazz", several of the talking heads bemoaned Louis
>Armstrong's decision to work with so many popular musicians who were
>second-rate late in his career. To drive this point home, they showed
>an old TV appearance of Armstrong with... Perry Como.
Are you talking about Ko KO Mo (I Love You So)? I think you should go
back & re-watch Burns. You obviously just didn't quite get it. Can you
get someone to explain it to you, maybe? Now, your not understanding
"Jazz" and its focus is not surprising based on your knowledge of
music, which seems to be limited. You might want to check if your
local community college teaches a course in music history before you
go off half-cocked (or perhaps half coked) and make such sweeping
generalizations about music and the history of pop music based solely
on your watching TV and sucking hits off the departed Napster.
>It's beginning to look a lot like Kwanza, everywhere you go,
>MattH
I am not too sure about the holiday, but I'd bet my bottom dollar that
you're beginning to look like an asshole everywhere you post.
Boron
Terrymelin
>Ken Burns' "Jazz", several of the talking heads bemoaned Louis
>Armstrong's decision to work with so many popular musicians who were
>second-rate late in his career. To drive this point home, they showed
>an old TV appearance of Armstrong with... Perry Como.
Here's Hubbards problem. He gets his Jazz history from Ken Burns. That silly
program has been blasted by critics and serious Jazz fans all over the
universe.
If you think that Perry Como is second-rate then you are truly diseased. But we
already knew that didn't we?
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>you're beginning to look like an asshole everywhere you post.
>
>Boron
Unfortunately for Hubbard it's not "beginning to like like an asshole" he's
been one a long, long time.
Terry Ellsworth
Matthew Hubbard
>
> On Sat, 15 Dec 2001 07:22:25 -0800, Matthew Hubbard
> <mhub...@csuhayward.edu> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Including Como with Haymes, Williams and Vale and then comparing
> >> them to Vallee?
> >
> > They are all white boys who just didn't get it; Vallee is just
> >a generation earlier.
>
> Didn't get what? You mean they didn't sing your favorite style or
> composer? Are you making some sly racist remark? If the latter is the
> case, show your balls and let it be debated.
Black and ethnic folk music is what separates American pop music
from its European roots; there was still money to be made singing dull
tunes for dull people, and that's what Como, Vale, et al., did. There
are still dull people who think this dull music was special. Imagine my
surprise.
Not every great American musician of the 20th Century owes the
exact same debt to black music; the one who can stand almost completely
separate is Fred Astaire. His understanding of rhythm was so masterful
that his excellence at rubato could be lifted from Chopin or even
Nijinsky as easily as it could be lifted from Louis Armstrong.
> > People are still covering their tunes and ripping off their
> >riffs.
>
> People still cover Hildegard von Bingen, too. What exactly is your
> point?
The musical ideas of Hildegard von Bingen are not extinct. The
musical ideas of Perry Como are extinct, and deservedly so. Even the
last bastion of the faux Rat Pack crap, Las Vegas, had to find other
styles of entertainment to stay alive or it would be choking on its own
vomit.
> Are you talking about Ko KO Mo (I Love You So)? I think you should go
> back & re-watch Burns. You obviously just didn't quite get it. Can you
> get someone to explain it to you, maybe? Now, your not understanding
> "Jazz" and its focus is not surprising based on your knowledge of
> music, which seems to be limited.
If you want to play music trivia for money, bring lots of cash.
MattH
Boron Elgar
<mhub...@csuhayward.edu> wrote:
>If you want to play music trivia for money, bring lots of cash.
I doubt it honey. So far you haven't shown you can tell rectum from
rectitude.
Go play with Ben Stein.
Boron
Tregembo
Matthew Hubbard <mhub...@csuhayward.edu>
> > > Perry Como is where he belongs, on the dustbin of history
> > > like other hot-selling non-entities of their day, Dick Haymes, Andy
> > > Williams and Jerry Vale to name a few. The reason this crap is as
> > > relevant as Rudy Vallee today is that, after a few great songwriters
> > > at the top of the heap, so much of the material from the '40s and
> > > '50s is absolute dreck.
> >
> > to Vallee?
>
> They are all white boys who just didn't get it; Vallee is just
> a generation earlier.
>
> > singer-songwriters, none of the great contemporary songwriter-singers
> > you mentioned are musically relevant today, they're musically relevant
> > memories.
>
> completely extinct in terms their effect on any style of music today. On
> Ken Burns' "Jazz", several of the talking heads bemoaned Louis
> Armstrong's decision to work with so many popular musicians who were
> second-rate late in his career. To drive this point home, they showed
> an old TV appearance of Armstrong with... Perry Como.
>
> MattH
Matt,
What you know about music I could count on the fingers of my left hand, and
I only have two on that hand! BTW, A&E has a biography on Como tonight
(Saturday). Listen and learn.
Ray Arthur
Tregembo
Matthew Hubbard <mhub...@csuhayward.edu> wrote in message
news:3C1B6AB1...@csuhayward.edu...
> > singer-songwriters, none of the great contemporary songwriter-singers
> > you mentioned are musically relevant today, they're musically relevant
> > memories.
>
> People are still covering their tunes and ripping off their
> riffs.
First of all, if we're going to discuss this topic intellegently, we have to
agree to base it on universally accepted standards. You are proceeding on
"Matt" definitions which I and most others do not accept. The fact the
contemporary artists are "covering their tunes and ripping off their riffs"
supports my point not yours.
> That is their relevance; the second-rate whitebread singers are
> completely extinct in terms their effect on any style of music today.
Really, tell that to Five For Fighting, Enya, Train, Jewel, Enrique
Iglesias, Creed, Nelly Furtado, Sugar Ray, and Incubus. They're all on
Billboard's current Adult Top 40, top 20; the equivilant to the AC charts of
the '50's through '70's. If you don't think most or all of these
singer/songwriters and singers were influenced by Como and his generation
you're a bigger lightweight (oxymoron alert) than I thought. Plus, just to
make your premise more inane, based on your point, if someone covers a Como
hit, he will then, by your definition and in your eyes, become revelant?
Hold that thought while I do a Google on all the "extinct, second rate,
white bread singers."
> On Ken Burns' "Jazz", several of the talking heads bemoaned Louis
> Armstrong's decision to work with so many popular musicians who were
> second-rate late in his career. To drive this point home, they showed
> an old TV appearance of Armstrong with... Perry Como.
While Perry was, at times, a "jazzy" song stylist, I doubt anyone would
primarily categorize his musical career as jazz.
Further, your statement negates your point. Burns point was that Armstrong
deluted HIS career by working with Pop talent.
Beyond that it's a ridiculous point because 40 years later Armstrong is held
in no less regard for that participation.
> It's beginning to look a lot like Kwanza, everywhere you go,
> MattH
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that none of your comments in this
thread have any racial overtones, it's almost Christmas. As long as Perry
remains deceased this discussion is applicable on this ng. But it sounds to
me like you'd really like to have a white music vs black music debate, which
would be fine with me and we'd probably be in general agreement, but not
here.
Ray Arthur
Matthew Hubbard
>
> Perry Como had a magnificent voice, and all, but no way no how does he
> belong on this list (neither does Garth Brooks, who does not appear on
> it):
Actually, he is on par with one of the other honorees: Mitch
Miller. Miller was also a record company weasel; maybe it's that part
of his lifetime he is getting honored for.
I don't begrudge anyone else on the list, though there are some
odd missing names. Stephane Grappelli, but no Django Reinhardt; Woody
Herman, but no Artie Shaw, Glenn Miller or either of the Dorsey
Brothers. A terrific selection of early rockers, but not Carl Perkins.
John Lennon, but not Paul McCartney. Leontyne Price, but not Beverly
Sills or Dame Joan Sutherland. Muddy Waters, but not Robert Johnson.
Bessie Smith, but not Ethel Waters or Big Mama Thornton. Roy Acuff, but
not Hank Williams. Irving Berlin, but not Kern, Porter, Gershwin,
Rodgers, Hammerstein, Mercer, etc.
Some of these omissions may have to do with the artist being
dead before the first Grammys were ever given out, but that certainly
doesn't explain every missing name, and using that criteria, Fats Waller
and Enrico Caruso would never have been given awards.
Is a puzzlement,
MattH
Boron Elgar
<mhub...@csuhayward.edu> wrote:
>
> I don't begrudge anyone else on the list, though there are some
>odd missing names. Stephane Grappelli, but no Django Reinhardt; Woody
>Herman, but no Artie Shaw, Glenn Miller or either of the Dorsey
>Brothers. A terrific selection of early rockers, but not Carl Perkins.
>John Lennon, but not Paul McCartney. Leontyne Price, but not Beverly
>Sills or Dame Joan Sutherland. Muddy Waters, but not Robert Johnson.
>Bessie Smith, but not Ethel Waters or Big Mama Thornton. Roy Acuff, but
>not Hank Williams. Irving Berlin, but not Kern, Porter, Gershwin,
>Rodgers, Hammerstein, Mercer, etc.
"The Lifetime Achievement Award is presented by vote of the Recording
Academy's National Trustees to performers* who, during their
lifetimes, have made creative contributions of outstanding artistic
significance to the field of recording."
*Before 1972, non-performers were included.
The above mission statement goes far to explain why some you mention
are on & some not.
McCartney made it a year before Lennon, by the way. There was a bit of
a stink about it, too, IIRC.
Once again, (maybe it will sink in this time) you need to be informed
that these awards are based on NARAS membership nominations. There is
no learned committee sitting around debating this stuff. Sammy Davis
Jr is on the list fer cryin out loud. This is not an academic treatise
on the merits of those in the recording industry. Why do you feel this
is any different from Academy Awards with Thalberg or the Baseball
Hall of Fame?
boron
Terrymelin
>I only have two on that hand! BTW, A&E has a biography on Como tonight
>(Saturday). Listen and learn.
>
>Ray Arthur
>
>
We are just agreeing too much these days Ray! The A&E bio should wipe away any
doubt about the greatness of Mr. Como. Except in the eyes of people who are
blind or filled with hate for something that doesn't rap or applaud
cop-killers.
People are still enjoying, buying, and listening to records Mr. Como made over
55 years ago. And in great numbers. That's a claim that can be made by few
artists in the popular field.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>Sills or Dame Joan Sutherland.
You think those bozos know anything about classical music? Their knowledge
level is about where yours is at.
Terry Ellsworth
Kathi
wrote:
>On 13 Dec 2001 07:42:51 GMT, madc...@aol.com (MadCow57) wrote:
>
>>>>Correcting the spelling mistake in the header. I before E except after
>>C....<< -- Hyfler/Rosner
>>
>>I was taught it as "I before E except after C and in words like 'neighbor' and
>>'weigh'" which always seemed to me a little open-ended to be a real rule.
>
>I before E
>except after C
>or when sounding like A
>as in neighbor and weigh
>or sometimes like I
>as in Neibaur and Feigel.
and Seidl.
Kathi
I forgot how the mail was set up for reply...
Ever repentant,
Kathi Seidl
Tregembo
> >What you know about music I could count on the fingers of my left hand,
and
> >I only have two on that hand! BTW, A&E has a biography on Como tonight
> >(Saturday). Listen and learn.
> >
> >Ray Arthur
> >
> >
>
> We are just agreeing too much these days Ray!
>
Enjoy it while it lasts, eh? I feel I'm only days away from responding,
"Jane, you ignorant bitch," to one of your future diatribes :)
Ray
Tregembo
Tregembo <tr...@krajfm.com> wrote in message
news:u1oi21q...@corp.supernews.com...
Slut. That was supposed to be slut. You couldn't say bitch on TV back
then.
Ray
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Matthew Hubbard <mhub...@bay.csuhayward.edu>
wrote:
> [...] Woody Herman, but no Artie Shaw, Glenn Miller or either of the
> Dorsey Brothers.
Miller is pretty wildly overrated, not only in my opinion but I
believe that's a consensus of hard-core fans and professional critics
of that form of music.
> John Lennon, but not Paul McCartney.
I'm a little surprised to see you make this distinction. Judging
solely by their post-Beatles work, McCartney seems to embody
everything you hate (and I do mean hate) in pop music. "Another white
boy who just didn't get it," as I believe you put it. Lennon showed
true songwriting genius after the Beatles broke up; McCartney didn't.
Since it's a "Lifetime" achievement award, we have to subtract "Silly
Love Songs"[1] and "Band on the Run" from "PS I Love You" and
"Yesterday."
I'm in at least general agreement with everything else you noted here.
Especially the Mitch Miller thing. Considering the piss-poor record
the Grammies have at sorting out quality from crapola in their annual
awards, I find the Lifetime Achievement list to be fairly rational.
[1] Am I going to hell again for mentioning song this without *-ing out
the vowels? Yeah, probably.
J.D. Baldwin
> of a stink about it, too, IIRC.
Eeek. My list was incomplete. I grepped for strings in all caps in
the range A-Z (but caught Mel Tormé by hand) and thus I inadvertently
left out
ANDRÉS SEGOVIA
B.B. KING
BOBBY "BLUE" BLAND
HANK WILLIAMS SR.
MILLS BROS.
NAT "KING" COLE
PAUL McCARTNEY
SAMMY DAVIS JR.
Sorry for the error(s), and for the record, those names all very much
belong on any rational list of great recording artists.
And there by-God *should* have been a stink about including McCartney
before Lennon.
James L. Neibaur
>over
>55 years ago. And in great numbers. That's a claim that can be made by few
>artists in the popular field.
Perry Como is one of the great pop song stylists. I always thought that was
simply general knowledge for people with even the most marginal interest in
music.
I grew up devouring rock and roll, of course, but not at the expense of
casually dismissing the likes of Como, King Cole, Sinatra, Dino, Davis Jr, et
al. It wasn't until I was reaching the throes of adulthood that I was able to
appreciate Jazz, Blues, Classical, and was able to discover pop song stylists
that pre-dated those from my lifetime (Russ Columbo, Louis Jordan et. al.).
And as I get older, I become more and more interested in rock music's roots
(the earliest blues and country styles that evolved into the music with which I
am most familiar).
My interest in music isn't as deep as my interest in film. You could say that
I am no more than a superficial fan. But it seems terribly obvious that
someone like Perry Como is among the more significant singers of his time.
And if RAP is music, then falling off the roof is transportation. Sorry. Just
my opinion.
JN
Please visit the most poorly designed web pages online:
my Favorite Movies web page:
http://hometown.aol.com/jimneibr/myhomepage/movies.html
and my Favorite Performers web page:
http://hometown.aol.com/jimneibr/myhomepage/rant.html
C.L. Lassiter
>> :> > Correcting the spelling mistake in the header. I before E except
> after
>> :> > C....
>> :> Except in Budweiser
>> : I'll drink to that.
>> Yeah,but next thing you know you'll get seized in a weird heist.
> Should you get feisty enough to try this, feign a religious
> conversion and seek out a deity. Otherwise, you could get
> leistered in the keister. Either way, neither is appealing.
And your point would be? ;^)
cl
Matthew Hubbard
>
> Matthew Hubbard <mhub...@csuhayward.edu> wrote in message
> news:3C1B6AB1...@csuhayward.edu...
> > Tregembo wrote:
> > >
> > > Matthew Hubbard <mhub...@csuhayward.edu>
> >
> > > And, while it is unfair to compare just singers with
> > > singer-songwriters, none of the great contemporary
> > > songwriter-singers you mentioned are musically relevant today,
> > > they're musically relevant memories.
> >
> > People are still covering their tunes and ripping off their
> > riffs.
>
> First of all, if we're going to discuss this topic intellegently, we
> have to agree to base it on universally accepted standards.
Look, Mr. Universe, if you want to turn this into a definition
contest, I am more than happy to get mathematical on your ass.
> The fact the contemporary artists are "covering their tunes and
> ripping off their riffs" supports my point not yours.
Let me give you an example; it's a little hard for Marvin Gaye
to have another hit or string of hits now, since he's on-topic in this
newsgroup. But a whole bunch of the modern artists, including some of
your Billboard Adult Top 40 artists just did a cover of "What's Goin'
On"; to me, this shows the immediate relevance of Marvin Gaye. If you
want to go on Google and look for what contemporary artists are covering
"Hot Diggity (Dog Ziggity Boom)", be my guest.
> If you don't think most or all of these (Billboard Adult Top 40
> artists) were influenced by Como and his generation you're a bigger
> lightweight (oxymoron alert) than I thought.
To use the phrase "Como and his generation" would be like saying
"Bo Belinsky and his generation of pitchers"; I really don't think he
belongs with the top male singers of his time. I would much rather
listen to Fred Astaire, Tony Bennett, Nat Cole, Bing Crosby, Billy
Eckstine, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Mel Torme or Joe Williams than
listen to Como, and that list is just solo male singers who might be put
in a list of crooners or balladeers. For those who might have a glint
of an idea that somehow Como might slip into a Top Ten since I only
listed nine, I would add Cliff Edwards, which I readily admit is a more
idiosyncratic choice than the other nine.
> Plus, just to make your premise more inane, based on your point, if
> someone covers a Como hit, he will then, by your definition and in
> your eyes, become revelant?
If that happens, yes, Perry Como will be more relevant today.
The reason it is unlikely to happen is that so many of Perry's hits were
novelty tunes. When Mitch Miller made Sinatra sing this crap, Sinatra
rebelled and went on to record the albums that cement his reputation.
Perry was happy to take the money and run. It's the decision of a
second-rate artist.
> > On Ken Burns' "Jazz", several of the talking heads bemoaned Louis
> > Armstrong's decision to work with so many popular musicians who were
> > second-rate late in his career. To drive this point home, they
> > showed an old TV appearance of Armstrong with... Perry Como.
>
> While Perry was, at times, a "jazzy" song stylist, I doubt anyone
> would primarily categorize his musical career as jazz.
> Further, your statement negates your point. Burns' point was that
> Armstrong deluted HIS career by working with Pop talent.
With SECOND RATE pop talent. They did not show him singing with
Crosby or Sinatra, which of course, he did. Crosby and Sinatra are not
second rate and were not a waste of Armstrong's time.
> > It's beginning to look a lot like Kwanza, everywhere you go,
>
> I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that none of your comments in
> this thread have any racial overtones, it's almost Christmas.
Here's a little note for the humor impaired; Kwanza is a
second-rate, made-up holiday; this is why I make fun of it. Likewise,
Hannukah is a minor Jewish holiday turned into a gift-giving holiday for
reasons that seem largely to do with assimilated Jews trying to make
their kids feel better near Christmas; this is why Jewish comics make
fun of it. If you've never tried to write Hannukah carols or Kwanza
carols, I recommend it; it's fun, and moreover, Prof. Tom Lehrer would
approve, which makes it completely on-topic.
MattH
Matthew Hubbard
>
> In the previous article, Matthew Hubbard <mhub...@bay.csuhayward.edu>
> wrote:
> > John Lennon, but not Paul McCartney.
>
> I'm a little surprised to see you make this distinction. Judging
> solely by their post-Beatles work, McCartney seems to embody
> everything you hate (and I do mean hate) in pop music. "Another white
> boy who just didn't get it," as I believe you put it. Lennon showed
> true songwriting genius after the Beatles broke up; McCartney didn't.
Okay. Let me make this clear. I think Perry Como is overrated;
I do not hate him. For hate, we'd have to go to Sammy Davis, Jr.; he is
the platonic ideal of talent without taste.
And moreover, I disagree with your assessment of Paul. There
were some very good songs since the Beatles' breakup from Paul,
including "Maybe I'm Amazed", "Junk", "Temporary Secretary" and several
of the tunes he co-wrote with Elvis Costello, including "Veronica", "My
Brave Face" and "That Day Is Done".
MattH
Boron Elgar
wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Dec 2001 04:21:53 GMT, Boron Elgar <boron_elgar@"warm"mail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Once again, (maybe it will sink in this time) you need to be informed
>>that these awards are based on NARAS membership nominations. There is
>>no learned committee sitting around debating this stuff. Sammy Davis
>>Jr is on the list fer cryin out loud. This is not an academic treatise
>>on the merits of those in the recording industry. Why do you feel this
>>is any different from Academy Awards with Thalberg or the Baseball
>>Hall of Fame?
>
>Whoa, let's not get carried away! The Hall of Fame has a fairly
>systematic nomination and election process, inasmuch as the baseball
>writers' role is concerned. The system has worked well, too, for it isn't
>that easy to scan the list of names and say, "how the heck could they put
>that guy in and not this other guy?" Oh, sure, everyone can find a few
>hometown favorites they feel are unjustly omitted, and a couple that were
>omitted on technicalities, but overall, the BBWAA inductees to the Hall of
>Fame do a very good job of reflecting the consensus of the writers, the
>players, and the fans. (Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of the
>Veterans Committee inductees, but with any luck, the rules changes adopted
>this year will fix that.)
>
I have a personal grudge against them as they treated Rizzuto badly. I
know I should not let personal feelings get in the way of rational
thought. <grin>
Baseball is actually easier to determine the cream of the crop. There
are hard numbers to look at, if nothing else. Once you cross certain
thresholds, a guy is almost a shoe in to make it, albeit no ton the
first ballot.
I suppose a better comparison would have to be made if there were a
Sports Hall of Fame of note that crossed all athletics.
Boron
Hyfler/Rosner
> Tregembo wrote:
>
> Here's a little note for the humor impaired; Kwanza is a
> second-rate, made-up holiday; this is why I make fun of it. Likewise,
> Hannukah is a minor Jewish holiday turned into a gift-giving holiday for
> reasons that seem largely to do with assimilated Jews trying to make
> their kids feel better near Christmas; this is why Jewish comics make
> fun of it. If you've never tried to write Hannukah carols or Kwanza
> carols, I recommend it; it's fun, and moreover, Prof. Tom Lehrer would
> approve, which makes it completely on-topic.
>
> MattH
Last night, I drove from one end of Brooklyn to the other. I saw displays
of Xmas lighting that were frighteningly gaudy and tasteless.
I don't think any of the holidays have turned out to be exactly what the
original designers had in mind. for them.
And when did you start speaking for Jewish comics? Self-mockery is the
name of the game. And it's not limited to "minor" Jewish holidays.
I lit candles--not screwed in bulbs--all week with my family. We gave a few
gifts. We made latkes. I have never felt the need to make my kids feel
better around Christmas. They have never felt bad around Christmas. Why
should they? They're not Christians. IT's not their holiday.
They only feel bad around people who make fun of them.
Kintamayama
Matthew Hubbard wrote:
>
> Here's a little note for the humor impaired; Kwanza is a
> second-rate, made-up holiday; this is why I make fun of it. Likewise,
> Hannukah is a minor Jewish holiday turned into a gift-giving holiday for
> reasons that seem largely to do with assimilated Jews trying to make
> their kids feel better near Christmas; this is why Jewish comics make
> fun of it. If you've never tried to write Hannukah carols or Kwanza
> carols, I recommend it; it's fun, and moreover, Prof. Tom Lehrer would
> approve, which makes it completely on-topic.
>
> MattH
Hi Matt!
It has nothing to do with being humor impaired-people tend to get touchy
when it comes to their religion and stuff..It is a minor holiday, in
that it's not one of the three major ones mentioned in the "works",and
is not a day of atonement.But it is a holiday, commemorating a miracle
that happened a couple of thousand
years ago (give or take a few..). Its history is a bit more dated than
Kwanza, which I believed was started in 1966.
Here, where we are mostly Jewish and overwhelmingly non-religious, the
gift-giving is non-existant.
The latkes are, though. I lived overseas for many years. Never got a
present. Never was jealous of Christmas, although I loved the songs,
which made me some sort of a heretic in some circles..
It may be "minor", but it's an eight day school holiday, so there..
regarding the comocs, well, I have no idea , but tend to believe
Hyfler/Rosner and co. Ltd.
Kintamayama
Tregembo
> Tregembo wrote:
> > The fact the contemporary artists are "covering their tunes and
> > ripping off their riffs" supports my point not yours.
>
> Let me give you an example; it's a little hard for Marvin Gaye
> to have another hit or string of hits now, since he's on-topic in this
> newsgroup. But a whole bunch of the modern artists, including some of
> your Billboard Adult Top 40 artists just did a cover of "What's Goin'
> On"; to me, this shows the immediate relevance of Marvin Gaye. If you
> want to go on Google and look for what contemporary artists are covering
> "Hot Diggity (Dog Ziggity Boom)", be my guest.
There have been dozens of tribute albums, some better than others. Marvin
Gaye WAS an influence. I agree whole heartily that too much of Como's
catelogue was novelty, albeit that that was a large part of the musical make
up at that time. For you to ignore all of his great songs and use "Hot
Diggity" as an example is both disingenous and not pertinent to your
original point.
> > If you don't think most or all of these (Billboard Adult Top 40
> > artists) were influenced by Como and his generation you're a bigger
> > lightweight (oxymoron alert) than I thought.
>
> To use the phrase "Como and his generation" would be like saying
> "Bo Belinsky and his generation of pitchers"; I really don't think he
> belongs with the top male singers of his time. I would much rather
> listen to Fred Astaire, Tony Bennett, Nat Cole, Bing Crosby, Billy
> Eckstine, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Mel Torme or Joe Williams than
> listen to Como, and that list is just solo male singers who might be put
> in a list of crooners or balladeers. For those who might have a glint
> of an idea that somehow Como might slip into a Top Ten since I only
> listed nine, I would add Cliff Edwards, which I readily admit is a more
> idiosyncratic choice than the other nine.
You enjoy LISTENING to Fred "Can't sing, can't act, dances a little"
Astaire? I should close right here. Obviously my reference to his
generation would include all of your above, except Fred, as partners WITH
Como; obviously a point on which we disagree.
> > Plus, just to make your premise more inane, based on your point, if
> > someone covers a Como hit, he will then, by your definition and in
> > your eyes, become revelant?
>
> If that happens, yes, Perry Como will be more relevant today.
> The reason it is unlikely to happen is that so many of Perry's hits were
> novelty tunes. When Mitch Miller made Sinatra sing this crap, Sinatra
> rebelled and went on to record the albums that cement his reputation.
> Perry was happy to take the money and run. It's the decision of a
> second-rate artist.
See above. EEVERYBODY was happy to take the money and run, including
Sinatra who desparately needed it at the time. Novelty was, unfortunately,
an integral part of the Pop music genre at that time. Most of the
performers you listed above had novelty hits. And Como joined Sinatra to go
"on to record the albums that cement his reputation." Again I'm not
defending novelty music, I'm objecting to your singling out of Como, whose
only fault was to participate a little more often and a little more
successfully. That does not in any way make him second rate when his entire
catelogue is taken into consideration.
> > > On Ken Burns' "Jazz", several of the talking heads bemoaned Louis
> > > Armstrong's decision to work with so many popular musicians who were
> > > second-rate late in his career. To drive this point home, they
> > > showed an old TV appearance of Armstrong with... Perry Como.
> >
> > While Perry was, at times, a "jazzy" song stylist, I doubt anyone
> > would primarily categorize his musical career as jazz.
> > Further, your statement negates your point. Burns' point was that
> > Armstrong deluted HIS career by working with Pop talent.
>
> With SECOND RATE pop talent. They did not show him singing with
> Crosby or Sinatra, which of course, he did. Crosby and Sinatra are not
> second rate and were not a waste of Armstrong's time.
> MattH
I didn't see the show and I don't know what credibility any or all of your
talking heads have. And there could be several reasons why the Como clip
was used as opposed to any others, clearance rights for one. If you're
hanging a strong point on Ken Burn's "JAZZ," you're hanging alone.
But let's return to your original post:
> Perry Como is where he belongs, on the dustbin of history like
> other hot-selling non-entities of their day, Dick Haymes, Andy Williams
> and Jerry Vale to name a few. The reason this crap is as relevant as
> Rudy Vallee today is that, after a few great songwriters at the top of
> the heap, so much of the material from the '40s and '50s is absolute
> dreck; the best of singer-songwriters - starting with Chuck Berry and
> Buddy Holly and continuing with Smokey Robinson, Marvin Gaye, the
> Beatles, the Stones, the Who, The Beach Boys, etc. - continue to be
> relevant today because the music is still top notch.
Because you have not given an inch in the face insurmountable evidence to
the contrary, it's obvious that for whatever personal dislikes you harbor
towards Como's career, you intentionally mixed and mismatched your
comparisons and references to unsuccessfully support an argument that has
now disintegrated onto your infamous "dustbin of (ng) history."
You're dismissed. Next topic.
Ray Arthur
Matthew Hubbard
>
> You enjoy LISTENING to Fred "Can't sing, can't act, dances a little"
> Astaire? I should close right here. Obviously my reference to his
> generation would include all of your above, except Fred, as partners
> WITH Como; obviously a point on which we disagree.
Get with the program; Astaire is a singer, whatever his range.
You might recall a girl singer named Billie something-or-other who
barely had an octave range; she was a singer, too.
> And Como joined Sinatra to go "on to record the albums that cement his
> reputation."
Name those albums. Name the great songs that Como made his own.
As little as I like Sinatra as a human being, there are plenty of songs
in the American songbook that are his and his alone now, like it or not.
"All or Nothing at All". "Witchcraft". "Young At Heart". "All the Way".
"In The Wee Small Hours". "Come Fly With Me". "New York, New York". The
list goes on and on. Give me a list of great songs that immediately
make you and everybody think "Perry Como". (Note: Sinatra is just an
example; I could also compile short lists for Ella, Billie, Dean, Nat,
Bing, Tony and even, yes even, Fred Astaire.)
You told me to watch the A&E biography on Como; I watched as
much as I could stand, switching back and forth between that and some
truly dreadful boxing on HBO; the remote was the only thing that kept me
awake. I didn't hear a note, and I mean one single, solitary note that
would change my opinion of where he deserves to be put in the musical
pantheon, which is nowhere near the top; the people telling us what a
great guy and great performer were second rate hacks like Vic Damone and
Eddie Fisher. Como said he likes singing the "Ave Maria" on the
Christmas special when asked for his favorite song; it is infinitely
more rewarding to listen to any competent soprano sing that song
instead. I stand by my view that there is no there there when it comes
to Perry Como.
> If you're hanging a strong point on Ken Burn's "JAZZ," you're hanging
> alone.
I had my problems with the show as well, but they were right on
the money when they said Perry Como had no business on the stage with
Louis Armstrong.
> But let's return to your original post:
>
> > Perry Como is where he belongs, on the dustbin of history like
> > other hot-selling non-entities of their day, Dick Haymes, Andy
> > Williams and Jerry Vale to name a few...
>
> Because you have not given an inch in the face insurmountable evidence
> to the contrary...
Insurmountable evidence, my lesbian Aunt Bess! You haven't
named one great Perry Como song, one great Perry Como album; no sane
person would compare him to Frank Sinatra or Nat Cole or Bing Crosby or
Tony Bennett. Personally, I think he would run a distant third when
compared to Gene Pitney and Tom Jones.
MattH
p.s. Somebody who deserves more respect as a singer: Gene Kelly.
J.D. Baldwin
> everybody think "Perry Como".
Well, there's always --
Uh, my parole officer says I have a shot at the *eighth* ring of Hell
if I can behave myself from here on out, so maybe I'd better * this
one up:
"Tr* T* R*m*mb*r"
("Y" is a vowel in that word, right?)
On second thought, maybe that sort of makes your point.
Bill Schenley
Very difficult. In fact, "It's Impossible."
I can, however, give you a list of songs he absolutely
butchered ...
Starting with "Something."
Terrymelin
>listen to Fred Astaire, Tony Bennett, Nat Cole, Bing Crosby, Billy
>Eckstine, Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra, Mel Torme or Joe Williams than
>listen to Como
You would put Dean Martin head of Perry Como? He's not even an asterisk in the
history of popular music.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>rebelled and went on to record the albums that cement his reputation.
>Perry was happy to take the money and run. It's the decision of a
>second-rate artist.
Sinatra, even into his late 70s, was recording just as many "novelty tunes" as
any other popular singer of his generation.
And no one ever "made" Sinatra sing anything.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>second-rate, made-up holiday; this is why I make fun of it. Likewise,
>Hannukah is a minor Jewish holiday turned into a gift-giving holiday for
>reasons that seem largely to do with assimilated Jews trying to make
Hubbard and I agree on something at last! We have a wonderful Jewish friend who
is always complaining (in jest I might add) that Christmas songs are so much
better than Hannukah songs.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>> everybody think "Perry Como".
>
Well, for starters, there is "It's Impossible," "And I Love You So," "Till the
End of Time," and of course I could go on but it wouldn't convince you.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>Astaire? I should close right here. Obviously my reference to his
>generation would include all of your above, except Fred, as partners WITH
>Como; obviously a point on which we disagree.
Have to disagree with you on that one Ray. Astaire is one of the greatest
entertainers (and that includes his singing) ever. No less than Porter, Berlin,
and Gershwin proclaimed that they rather have Astaire sing their songs than
anyone else.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>example; I could also compile short lists for Ella, Billie, Dean, Nat,
>Bing, Tony and even, yes even, Fred Astaire.)
It's quite possible that Fred Astaire had more great songs written especially
for him than any other singer in the business. Can we all say "They Can't Take
That Away From Me?" or "Funny Face" or "A Fine Romance" or "Let's Face the
Music and Dance" or "Our Love is Here to Stay" or ... well you get the picture.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>much as I could stand, s
>I didn't hear a note, and I mean one single, solitary note that
>would change my opinion of where he deserves to be put in the musical
That's too bad because as much as I admire Sinatra, Ella, Billie, Fred, and all
the others Como's voice was easily the most beautiful of those. Only Crosby's
was its equal in terms of beauty. But this is a Callas vs. Tebaldi-like debate.
Callas was more expressive but Tebaldi had, by far, the more beautiful voice. I
choose to like both.
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>named one great Perry Como song, one great Perry Como album; no sane
>person would compare him to Frank Sinatra or Nat Cole or Bing Crosby or
>Tony Bennett. Personally, I think he would run
I've named several. And I can't think of a single "great" song to identify with
Tony Bennett who as fine as he is mostly sings everyone else's songs. And don't
mention that "San Francisco" abomination. That's not a great song.
Terry Ellsworth
PS: Gene Kelly can't hold a candle to Astaire's singing voice or dancing feet.
Terrymelin
>butchered ...
>
>Starting with "Something."
>
He certainly sang it better than the fools who originally recorded. Of course,
they couldn't really sing so it's not a fair fight.
Terry Ellsworth
Matthew Hubbard
>
> > Name those albums. Name the great songs that Como made his own.
>
> Very difficult. In fact, "It's Impossible."
Even Perry's version of this can't hold a candle to the version
done by Steve Martin during his stand-up days.
It's impossible to suck a piano through a straw, it's just impossible,
MattH
Harry Krause
You two are fighting over Perry Como?
That's a giggle and a half right there.
Tregembo
I was overactively using that old quote (I think from either Goldwyn or
Mayer) to make a point. Astaire was a very good actor and a great dancer,
but to put his singing in the same caliber with Sinatra, Como, Crosby, et
al, would be ridiculous.
Ray Arthur
Tregembo
> Tregembo wrote:
> >
> > You enjoy LISTENING to Fred "Can't sing, can't act, dances a little"
> > Astaire? I should close right here. Obviously my reference to his
> > generation would include all of your above, except Fred, as partners
> > WITH Como; obviously a point on which we disagree.
>
> Get with the program; Astaire is a singer, whatever his range.
> You might recall a girl singer named Billie something-or-other who
> barely had an octave range; she was a singer, too.
For the life of me I can't remember the name of that specific debating ploy
that you use, but it's quite obvious, "What? You think Astaire had a thin
voice? Why Billie Holiday only had a 12 tone range and look how good she
was." The presumption is then what, that because Billie had less range than
Astaire (again apples and oranges, range vs, strength, phrasing, tonality,
pitch) then Astaire was better than Como and comparable to Sinatra, Bennett,
Williams, etc.?
And I'm not a scholar of Astaire's hits, so correct me if I'm wrong, but
weren't the majority of them written specifically for him in the context of
musicals in which he was starring? My point being, if you're the lead in a
major musical, you get great songs, whether you can sing them great or not.
> > And Como joined Sinatra to go "on to record the albums that cement his
> > reputation."
>
> Name those albums. Name the great songs that Como made his own.
> As little as I like Sinatra as a human being, there are plenty of songs
> in the American songbook that are his and his alone now, like it or not.
> "All or Nothing at All". "Witchcraft". "Young At Heart". "All the Way".
> "In The Wee Small Hours". "Come Fly With Me". "New York, New York".
> The list goes on and on. Give me a list of great songs that immediately
> make you and everybody think "Perry Como". (Note: Sinatra is just an
> example; I could also compile short lists for Ella, Billie, Dean, Nat,
> Bing, Tony and even, yes even, Fred Astaire.)
Til the End of Time
Prisoner of Love
When You Were Sweet 16
Magic Moments
Because
Temptation
Catch A Falling Star
Wanted
It's Impossible
And I Love You So
Dream Along With Me
O Holy Night
Ave Maria
Plus the novelty fluff
> > If you're hanging a strong point on Ken Burn's "JAZZ," you're hanging
> > alone.
>
> I had my problems with the show as well, but they were right on
> the money when they said Perry Como had no business on the stage with
> Louis Armstrong.
Have I used the word disingenuous before in this thread? Sorry, but to pull
bad information out of an admittedly questionable source that you agree was
deficient and then stand it up to make your case... And, again, the topic
was Armstrong's JAZZ career playing on Como's, and other's, Pop TV shows.
> > But let's return to your original post:
> >
> > > Perry Como is where he belongs, on the dustbin of history like
> > > other hot-selling non-entities of their day, Dick Haymes, Andy
> > > Williams and Jerry Vale to name a few...
> >
> > Because you have not given an inch in the face insurmountable evidence
> > to the contrary...
>
> Insurmountable evidence, my lesbian Aunt Bess!
I had hoped that that was over-the-top enough to raise your blood pressure
> You haven't named one great Perry Como song;
Til the End of Time
Prisoner of Love
When You Were Sweet 16
Magic Moments
Because
Temptation
Catch A Falling Star
Wanted
It's Impossible
And I Love You So
Dream Along With Me
O Holy Night
Ave Maria
Plus the novelty fluff
> no sane person would compare him to Frank Sinatra or Nat Cole or
> Bing Crosby or Tony Bennett. Personally, I think he would run a distant
> third when compared to Gene Pitney and Tom Jones.
>
> MattH
Then 99% of the Pop music loving world is nuts because you're out there on
your own. What's bubbling underneath all this Matt? Was your Aunt Bess, a
LLL that was dissed for an autograph by Perry as a bobby soxer in the '40's?
Is this grudge is multi-generational? Is it tenors vs. baritones? Don't
you care for ex-barbers? People from PA? What?
Ray Arthur
Matthew Hubbard
>
> For the life of me I can't remember the name of that specific debating > ploy that you use...
Then don't bring it up, moron.
> And I'm not a scholar of Astaire's hits, so correct me if I'm wrong,
> but weren't the majority of them written specifically for him in the
> context of musicals in which he was starring?
Yes. And they gave Ginger Rogers a more than a few, too.
Ginger did not have the talent Fred had in any way, shape or form.
Though, to be fair, she was infinitely cuter than he was.
> My point being, if you're the lead in a major musical, you get great
> songs, whether you can sing them great or not.
Lots of people did songs first, only to have somebody else do
them better. Astaire had a huge number of songs he did both first and
right. (Note: "Seven Little Foys" reference.) "Steppin' Out With My
Baby". "Isn't This a Lovely Day (To Be Caught In The Rain)". "Top Hat,
White Tie and Tails". "Cheek to Cheek". "Let's Face the Music and
Dance". "Easter Parade".
And that's just the tip of the Irving Berlin iceberg of great
songs that Fred Astaire defined correctly (a very important concept to
mathematicians, and understood even by lesser mortals) and everybody
else had to acknowledge who recorded these songs later.
> Til the End of Time
I like Chopin on piano, thanks anyway.
> Prisoner of Love
Etta James AND Billy Eckstine kicked his ass six ways from
Sunday.
> When You Were Sweet 16
The Mills Brothers kicked his ass twelve ways from Sunday. (Note: The
Mills Brothers outnumber James and Eckstine by the same multiple as the
ass kickings.)
> O Holy Night
Luciano Pavarotti or Rickie Lee Jones; take your pick.
> Ave Maria
Any competent soprano, or can't you read?
> Temptation
Screamin' Jay Hawkins. Or do you mean the Tom Waits song, or
the Elvis Costello song of the same name? Then, Tom Waits or Elvis
Costello.
> Because
The best song of this title was recorded by the Dave Clark Five.
> Magic Moments
> Catch A Falling Star
> Wanted
> It's Impossible
> And I Love You So
> Dream Along With Me
> Plus the novelty fluff
Crap, crap, crap, crap, crap, crap and... massive loads of crap.
> What's bubbling underneath all this Matt?
I don't like to be served shit and be told it's filet mignon.
MattH
p.s. I thought I was dismissed. Why are you continuing this thread?
You have no ammunition; even the fucking moron Foreign Taliban know to
give up when they have no damn chance at all.
Tregembo
> Tregembo wrote:
> >
> > For the life of me I can't remember the name of that specific debating >
ploy that you use...
>
> Then don't bring it up, moron.
Moron! Aren't you the non-personalizing one.
> > And I'm not a scholar of Astaire's hits, so correct me if I'm wrong,
> > but weren't the majority of them written specifically for him in the
> > context of musicals in which he was starring?
>
> Yes. And they gave Ginger Rogers a more than a few, too.
> Ginger did not have the talent Fred had in any way, shape or form.
> Though, to be fair, she was infinitely cuter than he was.
I've always enjoyed the quote, "Ginger Rogers did everything Fred Astaire
did... backwards, in high heels."
Sounds like I hit a few nerves Matt. Nurse on some Orajel and go to bed,
content in knowing that you won and you're right...in you're teeny little
world you're right.
Ray Arthur
MadCow57
Ah, for the good old days!
Matthew Hubbard
>
> I've always enjoyed the quote, "Ginger Rogers did everything Fred
> Astaire did... backwards, in high heels."
As a feminist, I can say it's a lovely feminist sentiment; I
first heard it from Ann Richards, who reminds me of my beloved Grandma
Hubbard.
It's also a gross misrepresentation of the truth, and anyone
with a clue knows it.
> Sounds like I hit a few nerves Matt. Nurse on some Orajel and go to
> bed, content in knowing that you won and you're right...in you're
> teeny little world you're right.
I beat you like a red-headed stepchild; I dropped you like 3rd
period French. I'm currently listening to the first Sopranos CD to
remind myself that even Frank Sinatra performing "It Was A Very Good
Year" is orders of magnitude better than Perry Como's best vinyl ever.
You bet on a bad pony; justify your losses any way you want.
MattH
p.s. If you have the Sopranos CD, listen to Los Lobos' "Viking" and
think of it as the soundtrack to me whipping you soundly; the sound of
that overdrive guitar is analogous to your head getting pushed through
drywall. I'd ask you to listen to Tom Waits' "Such a Scream", but
there's no way in hell you are cool enough to have ever heard it.
Bill Schenley
> >Starting with "Something."
<laughing> . . . Just when I think it's not possible for you to
get anymore deranged ....
Terrymelin
>Ginger did not have the talent Fred had in any way, shape or form.
>Though, to be fair, she was infinitely cuter than he was.
As the great Kate said "he gave her class, and she gave him sex."
Terry Ellsworth
Terrymelin
>first heard it from Ann Richards, who reminds me of my beloved Grandma
>Hubbard.
A "man" who considers himself a feminist? I thought that silliness went out the
window when Phil Donahue retired?
Terry Ellsworth
Mary Campbell
>
> And I'm not a scholar of Astaire's hits, so correct me if I'm wrong, but
> weren't the majority of them written specifically for him in the context of
> musicals in which he was starring? My point being, if you're the lead in a
> major musical, you get great songs, whether you can sing them great or not.
Yes, but the musicals were written for Astaire; he didn't just happen to
be hired to play the lead in them. When Cole Porter wrote "The Gay
Divorce" (which became "The Gay Divorcee" when it was filmed), he wanted
and got Astaire for the lead (and Astaire was not a big star at the time).
Berlin said that Astaire was his preferred singer for introducing songs
because of his diction and delivery. "Night and Day", "Cheek to Cheek",
"Putting on the Ritz", "They Can't Take That Away From Me", "The Way You
Look Tonight", "Fascinating Rhythm" were all written for Astaire's voice
and style, not just for movies or stage shows in which he happened to appear.
Terrymelin
>be hired to play the lead in them. When Cole Porter wrote "The Gay
>Divorce" (which became "The Gay Divorcee" when it was filmed), he wanted
>and got Astaire for the lead (and Astaire was not a big star at the time).
>
were the toast of Broadway and London throughout the mid to late 20s and into
the 30s before he entered film. Astaire was already a big star by the time he
got to Hollywood.
Terry Ellsworth
>
James L. Neibaur
>Tony Bennett who as fine as he is mostly sings everyone else's songs. And
>don't
>mention that "San Francisco" abomination. That's not a great song.
I liked Bennett's versions of Yellow Day and Rags To Riches.
JN
Please visit the most poorly designed web pages online:
my Favorite Movies web page:
http://hometown.aol.com/jimneibr/myhomepage/movies.html
and my Favorite Performers web page:
http://hometown.aol.com/jimneibr/myhomepage/rant.html
James L. Neibaur
>in the
>history of popular music.
Now you're just being silly.
James L. Neibaur
>
>> He certainly sang it better than the fools who originally recorded. Of
>course,
>> they couldn't really sing so it's not a fair fight.
The Avocado Avenger
>Miller is pretty wildly overrated
[snip]
>Lennon showed true songwriting genius after the Beatles broke up
It was a bit hard to tell from the post, but if you mean Glenn Miller,
then I find your post rather ironic. Or is it coincidental? My
experience is that both Glenn Miller and John Lennon's reputations
increased exponetially upon their deaths and their true ability has been
greatly exaggerated.
No, I never understood what was supposedly "genius" about Lennon.
Stacia * The Avocado Avenger * Life is a tale told by an idiot;
http://world.std.com/~stacia/ * Full of sound and fury,
There is no guacamole anywhere. * Signifying nothing.
The Avocado Avenger
> ANDRES SEGOVIA
>Sorry for the error(s), and for the record, those names all very much
>belong on any rational list of great recording artists.
You'll find it funny, I'm sure, but there are a lot of people in the
Spanish-classical guitar set who don't agree with you on Segovia. They
felt his true heyday was before his recording career, although I
understand some early recordings during his heyday were made, but are now
lost.
To be honest, his later recordings left something to be desired. I'm no
premier artiste or anything yet could out-play Segovia, as recorded in the
1960s. Believe me, that's not bragging.
Tregembo
James L. Neibaur <jimn...@aol.combatant> wrote in message
news:20011217193255...@mb-ff.aol.com...
> > And I can't think of a single "great" song to identify with
> >Tony Bennett who as fine as he is mostly sings everyone else's songs. And
> >don't
> >mention that "San Francisco" abomination. That's not a great song.
>
> I liked Bennett's versions of Yellow Day and Rags To Riches.
>
> JN
I thought "Rags To Riches" was great. It sounds quite dated now, not
holding up as well as other '50's stuff. (like all of those Fred Astaire
hits of Matt's) BTW, am I the only one who hears a slight lisp in Bennett's
singing of that song? Or do I just have a bad recording?
Ray Arthur
The Avocado Avenger
>Tregembo wrote:
>>
>> You enjoy LISTENING to Fred "Can't sing, can't act, dances a little"
>> Astaire? I should close right here.
> Get with the program; Astaire is a singer, whatever his range.
>You might recall a girl singer named Billie something-or-other who
>barely had an octave range; she was a singer, too.
Buddy, if Astaire is a singer, then we are *all* singers. And I am your
king!
You compared Astaire's singing with Billie Holiday's singing. Someone,
somewhere, is carefully saving this post and marking the day when you,
sir, will be the first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
> Name those albums. Name the great songs that Como made his own.
That's a poor, poor way of measuring one's success. For example, for
decades a song called "Faded Love" was a Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys
trademark. Suddenly some upstart called Patsy Cline comes alone, covers
the song, and everyone forgets that Wills ever sang the song in the first
place. But it would be foolish and naive to ignore the contribution
either of them made to country music, especially because "Faded Love" was
no longer associated with Bob Wills.
Also, many of the songs Como sang Sinatra also sang, as did Martin and
Bennett and Vale and everyone else. Just how many versions of "South of
the Border" *have* been recorded? And just because you don't like the
Como version means he doesn't have a place in pop culture? The Christmas
specials alone should guarantee that, at least. Methinks your opinion is
overshadowing the facts.
Matthew Hubbard
>
> Matthew Hubbard <mhub...@csuhayward.edu> writes:
> > Name those albums. Name the great songs that Como made his
> > own.
>
> That's a poor, poor way of measuring one's success. For example,
> for decades a song called "Faded Love" was a Bob Wills and the Texas
> Playboys trademark. Suddenly some upstart called Patsy Cline comes
> alone, covers the song, and everyone forgets that Wills ever sang the
> song in the first place.
Not everyone, obviously. A song like "Respect" can be part of
the main body of work of both Otis Redding and Aretha Franklin. Wills
and the Playboys have a boatload of recordings that cement their
reputation, even if someone like Bing Crosby comes along and covers a
hit like "San Antonio Rose" or Patsy sings "Faded Love".
> Also, many of the songs Como sang Sinatra also sang, as did Martin
> and Bennett and Vale and everyone else.
Really? Is that true? I had no idea.
Sarcasm mode off.
I haven't heard the Como recording of any song that makes me
think, "Okay. There's a lot of choices here, and he found one of the
best."
> And just because you don't like the Como version means he doesn't have
> a place in pop culture?
He has a place; just not a place near the top.
> The Christmas specials alone should guarantee that, at least.
When I talk to people ten years or more younger than I am, I
find that Como's Christmas specials are not even a fading memory to
them; this doesn't mean that if they were repeated or some "best of"
show was made, they wouldn't have an audience, but I think CBS (the We
Want The Old Farts Network) would be the best choice.
MattH
Janice Brooks
>decades a song called "Faded Love" was a Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys
>trademark. Suddenly some upstart called Patsy Cline comes alone, covers
>the song, and everyone forgets that Wills ever sang the song in the first
>place. But it would be foolish and naive to ignore the contribution
>either of them made to country music, especially because "Faded Love" was
>no longer associated with Bob Wills.
Faded Love was actuly written by Bob's brother Billy Jack and loosly based on
the melody to Nellie Gray.. It's not his most famous number but serious fans of
Wills and country music know where the credit is due. The main reason Patsi's
version stands out is that she had the range to sing both the verse and choris
in the same key.
BUS Janice http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/3886/index.html
Moderator(country music) Steel Guitar Forum
http://www.steelguitarforum.com/
Terrymelin
>
>JN
>
Yes, but neither are great songs.
Terry Ellsworth
lynn paden
yeah, that gets me mad. fred had already paid his dues on stage, was
multi-talented, and gets reduced to that "dances a little." review by some
no nothing hollywood mogul. i thought his acting was great, especially in
latter roles like the con man in "towering inferno."
jamison
Bill Schenley
> decades a song called "Faded Love" was a Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys
> trademark.
Think: San Antonio Rose.
> Suddenly some upstart called Patsy Cline comes alone, covers
> the song, and everyone forgets that Wills ever sang the song in the first
> place.
Why would anyone ever forget Bob Wills because Patsy Cline covered
one of his songs? Patsy Cline was great ... Really great. But so was
Bob Wills.
Incidentally, Bob Wills was a fiddle player (albeit not a very good one)
and was not usually featured on the vocals. Rusty McDonald is the
vocalist on "Faded Love."
> But it would be foolish and naive to ignore the contribution
> either of them made to country music, especially because "Faded Love" was
> no longer associated with Bob Wills.
"Faded Love" will ALWAYS be associated with Bob Wills and the Texas
Playboys.
> Also, many of the songs Como sang Sinatra also sang, as did Martin and
> Bennett and Vale and everyone else. Just how many versions of "South of
> the Border" *have* been recorded?
I don't know, but Patsy Cline recorded it.
> And just because you don't like the
> Como version means he doesn't have a place in pop culture?
It's not *that* they sang the same songs ... It's *how* they sang them.
The PetRock also has a place in pop culture ... But that doesn't make it
a *good thing*.
Bill Schenley
> >Miller is pretty wildly overrated
> [snip]
> >Lennon showed true songwriting genius after the Beatles broke up
> It was a bit hard to tell from the post, but if you mean Glenn Miller,
> then I find your post rather ironic. Or is it coincidental? My
> experience is that both Glenn Miller and John Lennon's reputations
> increased exponetially upon their deaths and their true ability has been
> greatly exaggerated.
That was pretty funny . . .
. . . But not nearly as funny as this:
> No, I never understood what was supposedly "genius" about Lennon.
Your lack of "understanding" is okay. It does nothing to diminish Lennon's
genius.
Bill Schenley
> To be honest, his later recordings left something to be desired. I'm no
> premier artiste or anything yet could out-play Segovia, as recorded in the
> 1960s. Believe me, that's not bragging.
No, that would not be called bragging. That would be called delusion.
w98...@hotmail.com
> No, I never understood what was supposedly "genius" about Lennon.
>
>1960s. Believe me, that's not bragging.
Hmmm....and John only said that his group was bigger than God, not
that he could outplay Segovia....strange!!
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, Matthew Hubbard <mhub...@bay.csuhayward.edu> wrote:
> > Very difficult. In fact, "It's Impossible."
>
> Even Perry's version of this can't hold a candle to the version
> done by Steve Martin during his stand-up days.
>
> It's impossible to suck a piano through a straw, it's just impossible,
I believe that was "suck a Cadillac up your nose" in the song.
Sucking a grand piano into his lungs was an "impossible" feat he
offered to perform, quite apart from the song.
I'm not 100% sure of this, and besides, it's not like misquoting "The
Simpsons."
--
_+_ From the catapult of |If anyone disagrees with any statement I make, I
_|70|___:)=}- J.D. Baldwin |am quite prepared not only to retract it, but also
\ / bal...@panix.com|to deny under oath that I ever made it. -T. Lehrer
***~~~~-----------------------------------------------------------------------
J.D. Baldwin
In the previous article, lynn paden <lynnNOS...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> yeah, that gets me mad. fred had already paid his dues on stage,
> was multi-talented, and gets reduced to that "dances a little."
> review by some no nothing hollywood mogul.
The way I read it, that "review" was from the notes of a talent scout
for whom he auditioned before he'd even begun his stage career.
> i thought his acting was great, especially in latter roles like the
> con man in "towering inferno."
I thought his acting was variable, but in the right role he was
perfection itself.
And he was one of the bright spots in the horrifically awful "Towering
Inferno."
bjmpls
of all, Frank Sinatra himself (in 1961) stated that Perry Como was the
best singer in the country.
Second, choosing between Sinatra and Como is a matter of taste, pure
and simple (like Callas vs Tebaldi or Rembrandt vs Vermeer). Both
Como and Sinatra were great artists in their own right; their styles
were very different. Looks like you prefer Sinatra. So what.
Millions of people disagree with you. Grow up.
C.L. Lassiter
> And if RAP is music, then falling off the roof is transportation. Sorry. Just
> my opinion.
Interesting. I have become friends with a group of people I met
via a website for Nancy LaMott. (Pop, alto voice. Vibrato. Had the
ability of a Streisand and the passion of a Garland. Died too soon, 43,
of cancer.) Sang from the Great American Songbook. If you can *ever*
find one of her 6 cds, buy it; you won't be disappointed.
Anyway, we were talking about other forms of musical expression,
rap among them. A couple of us agreed that we hate rap but view it as an
art form if for no other reason than its power and sense of
expression. You may not like it (as we don't), but I see it as a viable
form of musical expression.
cl
James L. Neibaur
>via a website for Nancy LaMott. (Pop, alto voice. Vibrato. Had the
>ability of a Streisand and the passion of a Garland. Died too soon, 43,
>of cancer.) Sang from the Great American Songbook. If you can *ever*
>find one of her 6 cds, buy it; you won't be disappointed.
I am familiar with her work, but thanks anyway. I agree she was very good, and
it was terrible she died so young.
> Anyway, we were talking about other forms of musical expression,
>rap among them. A couple of us agreed that we hate rap but view it as an
>art form if for no other reason than its power and sense of
>expression. You may not like it (as we don't), but I see it as a viable
>form of musical expression.
I agree. Whenever people start speaking negatively about it, and insist it
should be banned from the airwaves, I find myself defending it, despite my
personal dislike.
Tregembo
James L. Neibaur <jimn...@aol.combatant>
>
> > Anyway, we were talking about other forms of musical expression,
> >rap among them. A couple of us agreed that we hate rap but view it as an
> >art form if for no other reason than its power and sense of
> >expression. You may not like it (as we don't), but I see it as a viable
> >form of musical expression.
>
> I agree. Whenever people start speaking negatively about it, and insist
it
> should be banned from the airwaves, I find myself defending it, despite my
> personal dislike.
>
> JN
I view it less as music and more as inner city Economic Development. It's
street poetry with a rhythm behind it. By my calculations that's somewhere
between 50% to 70% on the way to music, but not nearly there. I'm for
freedom of speech and expression so I'm not a 'ban it from the airwaves'
kind of guy. However, I'd appreciate it not being force fed to me at every
red light.
It's greatest assets are not its art form but rather that it has created an
industry and short term job market for an otherwise unemployable segment of
the population.
Secondly, while violent, it is mafia-like in that it kills its own without
many bystanders getting hurt.
Apologies for not being PC.
Ray Arthur