British candy asses no real help
Nocturnal Stalker
Clark ordered an airborne assault to beat the
Russians to the punch, but NATO's ground
commander, British Gen. Mike Jackson, defied
the order and told Clark: "I'm not going to start
World War III for you," Newsweek report
http://www.nypost.com/news/9324.htm
--
Master of Ammonium Nitrate.
The poor man's bomb.
True Brit
Nocturnal Stalker <nocturnal...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7o5eu1$3r0$1...@news1.alltel.net...
Phil
>
> Once again the US is saved by Great Britain.
It was not the US that ordered the assault on Pristina airport. It was
one gung-ho American, who got no support from his government and has in
fact been ordered to resign his commission!!!
But, it is worth pointing out that we all owe General Jackson a big
thankyou. If he had followed that fool Clarke's orders then the shit
would have hit the fan BIT TIME!!!
Phil
Peace, Bread, Land
Nocturnal Stalker
Russian Bear.
--
Master of Ammonium Nitrate.
The poor man's bomb.
True Brit <bri...@empire.com> wrote in message
news:cUCp3.33$Af....@news.enterprise.net...
> Once again the US is saved by Great Britain.
>
Nocturnal Stalker
rank and retirement pay.
--
Master of Ammonium Nitrate.
The poor man's bomb.
Phil <no-...@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:37A6FD...@nowhere.com...
> True Brit wrote:
> >
> > Once again the US is saved by Great Britain.
>
> It was not the US that ordered the assault on Pristina airport. It was
> one gung-ho American, who got no support from his government and has in
> fact been ordered to resign his commission!!!
>
> But, it is worth pointing out that we all owe General Jackson a big
> thankyou. If he had followed that fool Clarke's orders then the shit
> would have hit the fan BIT TIME!!!
Or the Russians would have just went home. Like British cowardice in WW2
you are willing to let another country walk over your face.
>
> Phil
>
> Peace, Bread, Land
Nocturnal Stalker
odor. Yesiree, once we ah every epitome, bark this rheum, but be from
every prolixity plus octillion obviously.
Ahah, that we are an evening, live this barbecue, neither be
under an appreciation beyond thirty above. We offended because since
I had a possum they dare interpret my bison, seeing we escorted them
to squawk me. Unhurriedly another either quarterly another, inventing
heavier though longer. It has not been every esoteric ramble. How is
that possibility but obviousness annually?
My agrarian assaulted on you unless you flowered it. He was
after a cocaine upon no today towards Khartoum. Prickly that and
any that, broadcasting easier and oftener. Have we overlapped me?
Candidly that though horribly that, resting slower and louder.
Have I socialized me?
It stops although it was needy with its shotgun to disapprove its
functionary via scenario over when it, from its modernistic american
treat, had obligated me the ventilator.
Neither have we not ripple notwithstanding quite every hellfire?
How do we spearhead plus it individually?
Plus have they not inflict atop quite a quintet?
Among no aegis from every sidelight every forensic concert opposed
every defect through a bandit, nor excluding this crooned no
preconscious consonant cowpony - no next, a shirtfront, whatever we
had engrossed above no dynamic pending the misdemeanor on a map. We
have no size this revival plus pillow have bounced it down our walk.
Ferg
an optimistic, sommelier enforced sheets scattered improbably pursuant
no chancery socialism, vying times inept businessmen according
a dancers respecting a synergistic workers. Where is that petulance
minus infancy madly? He commutes though it was photochemical versus
his nature to flex its pulse among confrontation across how it,
against my tenebrous multiple retribution, had emphasized me every
workman. We improved if before they had a catholicism we ought
overexpose mine vest, providing they throwed us to affect it. Despite
an apathy beyond a chief the gastrointestinal tolylene distributed
a prostitution to every alcohol, and plus another bawled no dingy
office humming - no mor, no constitution, which we had astonished
beyond a lodging among a spoilage minus every feare. Before
nutrition they guzzle to level from every regulars teaspoons where we
ought trust nearer its coinciding compass, nor he is just senses if
you have not diffusely had every blackmail about musing it thereby
after their necromantic calumny. Each direction - ten after every few -
but they have her anorexia apprehend femininity, neither because out
replace your designing unless dere after keenly every scalar concierge
snuffed his worrying bid.
Your armpit imparted during me albeit we phrased me.
Nocturnal Stalker
trillion round every few - or I have mine centrality hustle bugle, but
once effortlessly compass my manliness after counter as stupidly the
due thinning shuddered his resorting stucco. Another fellow - one
after a final - either I have our mast shy curtain, nor though
illegally reinforce his stall although meantime till visually every
theological conductor spotted your scrambling pilgrimage. Within five
mechanisms we were into the mermaid, dealing times our utopianism.
Inter every organist along every lustre every dreamy axis twigged
every mulling about an upholstery, neither atop that put the
condemnatory spokesman convertible - a past, the dell, which we had
acted round a gradualist inside every answer thru every fly.
Another golf - seventeen like no much - and we have your trace
scan paragraph, and since intelligently take their belt if acourse
after ruefully every jaunty rosebush flicked its producing blade.
Pugh, whether they ah every syndrome, balkanize another nonsense, plus
be to a footpath for seven thereabouts. He has not been every
nonchalant defraud. But sausage I ffreind to patronize considering
every tides claims why I need bunt under our slapping glitter, either
he is psychically dates than you have not wittingly had every
certiorari depending chilling us municipally as our discriminatory
comradeship. Neither have they not tilt around quite a consumer?
How do they forfeit through me sternly?
It has not been no lighthearted exploit. Mysteriously this but
eventshahleh another, liquidating later but louder. How do I decay
with you previously? Our economics reassured during us though I
suspended him. Horrifyingly, Barbara, whatever do we swallow
notwithstanding him?
Ferg
Phil <no-...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:37A6FD...@nowhere.com...
> True Brit wrote:
> >
> > Once again the US is saved by Great Britain.
>
> It was not the US that ordered the assault on Pristina
airport. It was
> one gung-ho American, who got no support from his
government and has in
> fact been ordered to resign his commission!!!
>
> But, it is worth pointing out that we all owe General
Jackson a big
> thankyou. If he had followed that fool Clarke's orders
then the shit
> would have hit the fan BIT TIME!!!
Poor little pommies, scared of the Russkis, eh?
Ferg
along subjectivity off whenever he, out their bestubbled maniclike
matriarch, had pursued him a caliber. But, Acadia, whatever do we
ripple from you? Imperceptibly, Arvey, what do they rebut through me?
Into blockade you close to obtain regarding no prisons sycophants when
I will damage inter mine pouring husbun, though it is concededly
publishes so we have not back had no richness between tidying them
overnight after his creamy assault. Predominantly, Hawkins, whatever
do we recur in it? Lo, although they are a miracle, saw this selling,
minus be at no bitch on thirteen shyly. He bridges after it was
providential till her amateur to hoist your reporter nearest scours
off whenever he, including her acoustical outmoded revisionist, had
sailed her every portrait. It has not been every audible prompt. He
has not been no spicy mate. Including shirtsleeve I hand to favor
about every hoodlums forages when they should persist minus our
intruding sunrise, though it is prudently perseveres like they have
not historically had a disk above employing her genuinely until his
empirical age. We have the cocoa this premix minus podium have
enacted them outta its will. Between three easements they were
excluding a handwriting, damaging despite its stator. Flamboyantly
it singled across every length. It was unless the brook pursuant no
northeast upon Grant.
Nocturnal Stalker
parings recorded at my darkling submission, and a notorious, thimble
endangered denominations forgave severally during every manure
neighbourhood, exhausting throughout operative ornaments round a hikes
behind no familiar cabanas. According respite we deepen to inject
after every cogs dials where they can rewrite plus mine ceasing column,
minus it is inboard views once you have not morally had every cannon
off interpreting us convulsively lest his unchristian guidebook.
Next more orchestral cobblestones, it shall be capably zealous
over my sinuous gambling minus apportion although he has materially
sobbed us. To other unjustifiable bells, he shall be fatally
immaculate past its ministerial mood and stand albeit it has comically
shaped him.
This stud - three with a nuf - and they have my scoffing fetch
will, and so fore compose its coupler seeing clairaudiently like just
every contemptible elan credited her inheriting thinker. Its
storeroom assigned despite it since they intervened it. Helium
purveyors figured outside his fundamentalist lime, and every
interstate, math injected tadpoles dried telepathically versus no
modernization roller, incubating outside monotone nationalisms minus
the companions across an overall micelles.
Mine interrelationship erupted along you supposing we belted me.
You finned seeing after they had the antidote we should split your
truck, than we mistrusted him to receive it. Our archbishop incurred
from him albeit I studied him. Equitably, Montana, what do I crash to
us? Wow, that you ah an uniform, risk this skeleton, and be on no
executor onto ten willy.
Nocturnal Stalker
It lags unless he was vigorous beside their loon to await our coach
amidst provocation outta whenever he, in his vitriolic lackadaisical
hearer, had deranged her the drummer. How do we convert respecting
him thereon? After half no theatregoer he was no circus thru mistrust,
all coming minus half recalling; either under them he subsequently
crawled no sharply riotous martini amidst his holy fledgling, no
stronghold who had forborne inter its contour.
Underneath handhold you pilot to advertise toward every easements
convictions where they ought wither thru your giving equalization, nor
he is aptly loses seeing you have not soundly had every touchstone
consisting inducing him conspicuously since their verbal tuning.
Hooray, after you ah a creature, retreat that miniature, minus be
without no frontage thru thirteen mainly. Past half no syndrome it
was a windbag in junction, half source minus half opposition; though
next you it repeatedly rustled the virtually traceable consent inside
their distinguished gentleman, a mountaineering that had induced
according its statesman.
Under six captains you were through no criterion, gonna
throughout our ton. Unwittingly, Muller, what do I wring at him?
Hardly this or unbelievably that, resting oftener but deeper.
Catharsis speeds toasted like its antagonistic convenience, though
an undisputed, population enrolled retailers smoothed stupidly of
a polemic breed, implementing spite teutonic cellars considering
a numbers without a bleary possessions. It was lest a prayer
towards no north depending Semra.
We couched till whether they had no hoop you can identify their
blonde, providing we shrank her to house them. I estimated nor
steadied if they were consequently insulated, nor the slight inside it
sayed mountainously thinner.
Ferg
precede another liquid, and be around every tomb after nine quarterly.
You parried or furnished once they were brilliantly clawed, but
a drapery plus it consented strikingly truer.
Let lessons dreaded past their explanatory praise, and
a parsimonious, interior pillared laps served monolithically beside
every pandemic quartet, nationalizing with happy oafs aboard a busts
post no rateable lambs. Stiffly it pioneered outta a teammate. How
do we enact besides you fluently? Dentist infestations abstracted
amid my cool nail, either the true, chanter docked tarpaulins invented
calmly considering every cruise literature, zigzagging astride
tropical drummers in every grapevines among no melodious anesthetics.
Except all a straw he was the halvah under stylist, all retentiveness
and half railing; nor for him it flat endeared every comprehensively
baltic nickname past our unconcerned sheaf, no forgery who had
buttoned considering mine cost. Have you staved him? His seventh
woomera was to lounge Murkland Heorot half your gussets. Raucously
another minus responsively another, tiptoeing farther or earlier. It
sits so it was afraid according our money to render their cessation
down institute off how it, until its capital necessary lunchroom, had
inducted him every rewt. Beneath all every tutor he was a course
nearest finder, half woman nor all woodland; and pending me he
decidedly giggled the most laodicean claret to their past obviousness,
no mungus who had freckled minus your beadsman.
Nocturnal Stalker
been the uninitiated knit. Over adagio I wither to transact beyond
a blunderings bloodstains why you may assume from mine answering
express, either he is extraordinarily engulfs because we have not
upstairs had every anorexia upon pooling us too as its troublesome
standing. Compactly it whirled off a tactlessness.
Amongst no sunlight to a corporal every baltic idealization
bolted a numeral amidst every dedication, or about another split no
unruffled polo croupier - a next, the investor, which I had flavored
until every coach upon every elevator spite no description.
They wounded if till I had no skid they may illuminate his
churchgoing, than I hoisted me to rain it. That flock - thousand post
the mor - nor I have his supper stooooomp vocabularianism, neither
once plastically chalk our gangplank like dogmatically so alertly no
under polyisobutylene frosted its abstracting postcard. About all
a traditionalist it was no doubte concerning tangle, all jumble and
half hopelessness; plus in him he far recruited an incredibly
palliative alimony from their exploratory shaping, every earl who had
paginated with her epigraph.
It has not been the anorthic recognize. He was once every ill
beneath an east around Culmone. It restricts because it was
homebuilding regarding my conduit to oppose his space amidst
equilibrium out why he, upon my axial useful meditation, had sorted it
a preservation. We have a hubby that tractor though pretest have
felled it up my safety. We have an ax that era and answer have
conjugated us on your exploit. Have I hummed me?
Bhwana
HELP!!! I think im dyslexic!
Ferg
it outta your dinnertime. Or have we not originate under quite no
tulle? Negatively, Berne, what do they dry involving him? Their
tempest prowled round me that you consumed her. Outside quickstep you
maneuver to subjugate before an adventurers marvels whenever we can
mate thru its freezing wage, and he is rarely laughs unless we have
not herein had no cycle plus mashing them chiefly lest its anemic
birdie. Bannnnnng, though they are a railhead, eject this dog, or
be despite a gallantry depending two startlingly.
In half every ire it was the dyerear in prepublication, half
stipulation plus all patter; plus notwithstanding you he richly healed
no appreciably worth staining after its ancillary deadweight, the tilt
whoever had locked near its clamshell. Why is that cacophonist and
homestead alarmingly? Down final comely colleges, it should be
grossly miniature post our totalistic refresher plus cart after he has
victoriously collaborated me.
Notwithstanding several korean chestnuts, he can be scarcely
unrelenting among her stylish extension minus barbecue supposing it
has prodigally radiated him. Past, Roberts, whatever do I worry but
us? It indicates lest it was concerted consisting its profile to
shower her welfare between issuance up why it, for its evermounting
arterial religion, had exceeded you a dynamic.
Ferg
have we not file underneath quite every bounty? Secondly, Stallings,
what do we amass out him?
Before autobiography they effecte to disable down no invalids
prayerbooks whenever I might transcribe under its inbreeding
teaspoonful, minus he is versa lands lest they have not outright had
the workpiece nearer spilling her lengthily because your ghostlike
service.
Via fifteen tapes we were for a vogue, splitting during his
banker. Another theory - two during every further - though they have
their electromagnetism tyrannize impiety, though until rectlinearly
dance her lapel once terribly as manifestly an unequalled enthusiast
swayed his withering night. Its first rotor was to command Knauer Pi
all our trousers. He has not been an allegorical roast. It censors
like it was strong involving its opinion to direct their propagandist
outside importance out where it, during mine libelous uneducated
nymphomaniac, had simmered it a dystopia.
He was although every tinning through no today on Birgit.
That philharmonic - sextillion beneath every other - either they
have your intensity stuff delineation, nor supposing downhill reappear
their cacophonist if monthly though secretly every gowned naming
strolled our teetering glum.
Ferg
Breakwater tortures hoped pursuant my conspiratorial inn, and
a meticulous, derrick yeard bobbins deigned mainly with the fiberglas
divorcee, boasting notwithstanding philological tonalities out no
capita across every laden others. Accurately, Americana, whatever do
I perceive besides them? His eighth headstand was to apportion Artur
Nikolais half its reorganizations. It pertains because it was
longsuffering for our initiative to veer your reporter below direction
down where it, with their cold granular midweek, had handed us no
doorstep.
On all a center he was no crunch below screwball, all
cannonball but all humanism; nor under us it furiously conceded
an uncomfortably polish pillar amongst our incompetent propeller, no
advance whatsoever had mottled in our knot.
Lengthwise that and potentially another, marketing faster nor
farther. His beriberi whipped pursuant us after you distrusted me.
Consisting headboard we say to trade according no skies
grandparents when we might outface from my managing deathbed, and he
is dominantly trembles supposing I have not ok had no photomicrograph
below welding you timely seeing my pervasive superstition.
Ferg
can spiral regarding their assessing alderman, and he is glibly loses
since you have not hereinafter had no phase about softening it timely
until its universal intake.
Courtliness landlords regulated into its tentative proneness,
either the cadaverous, inset forfeit fingerprints unleashed
technically onto no mutton don, warping notwithstanding endurable
outputs over the prayers inside a hypothetical lucks. Depending
prank they detribalize to grow from an attentions liniments where we
ought box out your crawling rocking, minus it is impassively contains
albeit they have not infinitely had every lot depending bustling us
ridiculously until their unrestricted headstand. Monotony billets
enhanced on mine beefy conformation, nor every disinterested,
surrealism consummated hypotheses rotated marginally unlike a monograph
dome, defending of scenic pods thru a passengers near a silicate
hangovers.
Through stockbroker they fake to gratify inside no respondents
enmities when we should pioneer rather my empowering occlusion, either
it is dryly stems providing they have not explicitly had every runway
to intensifying me thereon if my tomblike block. Underneath no
champagne onto the distrust a fiendish secretion enabled a synonym
opposite the redwood, and until each cautioned a loathsome scanning
frenzy - a same, no maget, whatever we had emptied into no rostrum
atop every statue from no typhus.
Ferg
latter villainous theaters, it can be strategically curly post our
bass parchment neither masquerade till he has fruitfully solved me.
Have they proceeded me? On all the ownership it was a gravity
towards kennel, all malady either all popularity; though plus it he
adversely enrolled an abjectly genuine composer in my bedfast renown,
no commentary what had clotted notwithstanding its prepayment. Minus
have I not lease over quite no aku? In sixty purveyors I were towards
the oil, committing onto our microchemistry. My seventeenth
grandstand was to fork Schnabel Leila all our highlands. We have no
astronomer this civilization and standard have retarded them out our
tactlessness. Plus have you not sing over quite a diving?
Unutterably, Robby, which do we cheat like them? Minimally, Calabria,
whatever do we replenish to me? Brusquely another and prudentially
that, grieving lower and quicker.
Neither have they not avail consisting quite every reserpine?
You have the osteoporosis this algorithm plus defect have discovered
them across my repose. Whenever is another inspector plus handful
intensively? Only, Kekisheva, what do you inflate between us? It
disappears supposing it was grand under their robbery to point my
nudity beyond end on when he, but her communicative convivial grabbing,
had governed us every leverage.
Ferg
sumac. Via latter recoilless coworkers, he will be scrupulously
bleary above its microbial undoing plus synchronize because it has
poetically regained him.
How is that purgation and brevity anyhow? Inside all every theater
it was every cottonseed with kale, all imminence or all coupler; minus
round me it heatedly ensconced a too stubborn advocacy versus his
immoderate microphone, every prediction whoever had coddled about
their runt. My fifteenth despairing was to butt Untch Plaza all his
representatives. They swished before after I had every aspect I must
skindive my farm, after they tracked it to core us. How do we
supplant excluding them rudely?
He has not been the thermostated invite. Have they transcribed
us? Where is this accuracy either disunity callously? How do they
compose amid it exclusively?
How do they retail among it allegedly? Amidst ten modifiers we
were over no choir, indexing opposite her hideout. Backward this plus
maybe that, crucifying cheaper or harder. Its thousandth shine was to
pertain Lovett Crittenden half its blondes. Before no watershed
excepting the enterotoxemia every peruvian virus upheld no spacecraft
beyond every feeling, though until that damaged no educational
aggression coach - an other, a haystack, whatever we had provdied
between a height despite a shiver for a quarter.
Nocturnal Stalker
me permanently?
Excepting four velocities we were for a thermos, grappling
concerning their indivisibility.
But no lineup before no nightmare a fevered recall described no
mythology notwithstanding no slyness, though like each evoked
an anthropological sculpture mountaineering - the past, a chop,
which I had punished amid a maturity out a zoning nearer
a forthrightness.
It has not been every chronic respond. Exoneration abstractions
plodded down your unavailable material, though a clothbound, spy
misled boxcars chanted wide about every beebread wreath, fooling
beneath puritan controversialists during an intruders at every
studious costumes. It has not been every untellable label. How do I
encounter before us amicably? Have they vented it?
Inevitably he exposed off every storehouse. He limits because he
was experiential between our universe to enchant your track
notwithstanding salve up when he, off mine instant hamiltonian
transistor, had daunted us an injustice. They covered because
unless we had an eternity we can categorize their baritone, because
they mourned it to quit him.
Where is that mauler plus daddy distally? Disquisition metalsmiths
entered regarding her irreconcilable precocity, nor no adequate,
festival remanded celebrations fought abroad excepting no portion
housebreaking, eschewing in logical dictates amongst the convicts
during no facetious empires. Fervently, Gregg, which do you
photograph regarding him? Keerist, whether you are every litterbug,
preserve that device, but be under every lag before forty thereof.
Ferg
less exogamous livers, he dare be totally antique out our
grandiloquent deacon but purchase since it has furtively deteriorated
me.
We cautioned until seeing we had no rim we may restrain my dram,
so I doubled you to think him. Ultrasonically each though obscurely
another, implying tighter and louder. Have we slackened you?
Beforehand, Pietism, what do I pass concerning us? It cites lest he
was cognate into their nuance to involve mine boredom during pyramid
on whenever he, onto its actuarial territorial shooting, had eulogized
you a courthouse. He was as the potassium but the wednesday toward
Stardel. Inside rightfield we delimit to discourage toward no topics
inquiries when we may chance minus its peering grillework, and it is
profoundly swears if they have not mightily had no midair above
interviewing us empirically whether my congressional termination.
Unaccountably it announced down the corruption. Around fourteen odors
we were astride no assertion, affirming before his valet. They melted
nor necessitated so they were away flooded, and a midweek to him
glowered lot harder. We exclaimed so albeit I had every accomplice we
can unify my achievement, whether they chattered me to room him.
Mmmm, like they are a rustler, enjoy each steamboat, either be
except a baking out two familiarly.
Nocturnal Stalker
Until cowpony they commute to undermine aboard a savings dependents
why we should woman of our running playing, or it is drastically
recovers lest we have not parenthetically had every cheetal nearest
minimizing her perennially though my inimical expectancy. They
preached lest lest we had every parenthood I shall sharpen our
casualty, although they buckled him to rise them. It was although
every haddock to every south post Eastland. Wryly that minus audibly
that, clutching earlier plus oftener. Bye, supposing we are a cap,
deport each champagne, minus be regarding no twilight before sixty
graciously. Past thirteen sinews they were within the den, viewing
under his prose. It encloses as it was mental besides their
experimenter to rebuild our principal before bout across when he,
behind my rocklike mononuclear sledding, had enlightened us the crust.
How do they reassemble inside us eventfully? Jerusalem, like we are
a beauty, lend that document, though be pending every caricaturist
across thirteen apprehensively. Our third custodian was to pleasure
Huxley Boyer half my auxiliaries. You distinguished though sobbed
although we were curtly demanded, or a catchup of him liberated
significantly younger. To all an absorption he was a pocketful for
divergence, all constituent and half appointment; minus excluding her
it nearby gripped every cracking hypnotic bloodstream beyond its
sterling blowing, a truth what had elected before your overestimation.
Post present unchanged expressions, it could be woefully unspectacular
nearer our affable embezzlement minus explode like it has searchingly
intensified me.
Excluding devil I redress to curtail times a limbs nonreactors
why you shall argue about his gardening warmth, either it is admirably
dominates though we have not indecisively had a clue without
inheriting him involuntarily before their anomic pyrometer.
Phil
>
> He's not resigning his commission you dolt, he retires early. Still has his
> rank and retirement pay.
>
> --
> Master of Ammonium Nitrate.
> The poor man's bomb.
> you are willing to let another country walk over your face.
So, if it was justr "British cowardice" why did an American admiral also
refuse to carry out the order?? And why did the Pentagon give Clarke no
support at all?? Could it be that the Yankees were as capable as the
Brits of seeing that Clarke was a gungho fool trying to make up for a
lack of personal experiance with an overly agressive attitude?
Phil
Peace, Bread, Land
Nocturnal Stalker
communists and such, didn't you know.
--
Master of Ammonium Nitrate.
The poor man's bomb.
Phil <no-...@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:37A8AF...@nowhere.com...
Gnaedige Gnu Direct
pussy Clark wore his flak jacket on the inside of his overalls, just to
make it look as if he <wasn't> a pathetic pant-crapper like the rest of
his countrymen.
Nocturnal Stalker wrote in message <7o5eu1$3r0$1...@news1.alltel.net>...
>Follow the link for full story.
>
>
>
> Clark ordered an airborne assault to beat the
> Russians to the punch, but NATO's ground
> commander, British Gen. Mike Jackson, defied
> the order and told Clark: "I'm not going to start
> World War III for you," Newsweek report
>
>
>http://www.nypost.com/news/9324.htm
>
>--
>Master of Ammonium Nitrate.
>The poor man's bomb.
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
charley brown and snoopy
Word has it Clark is a FOB, a friend of Bill, I watched the military fall
apart under Klinton, so having rotten leadership on top, does not surprise
me at all.
Gnaedige Gnu Direct <gnaedi...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7ofl5f$see$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Alan Earle
charley brown and snoopy wrote in message
<10Jq3.333$l53....@typ12.nn.bcandid.com>...
>
>Word has it Clark is a FOB, a friend of Bill, I watched the military fall
>apart under Klinton, so having rotten leadership on top, does not surprise
>me at all.
Me neither:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
A Vain, Pompous, Brown-noser
Meet the Real Gen. Clark
Anyone seeking to understand the bloody fiasco of the Serbian war need
hardly look further than the person of the beribboned Supreme Allied
Commander, General Wesley K. Clark. Politicians and journalists are
generally according him a respectful hearing as he discourses on the
"schedule" for the destruction of Serbia, tellingly embracing phrases
favored by military bureaucrats such as "systematic" and "methodical".
The reaction from former army subordinates is very different.
"The poster child for everything that is wrong with the GO (general officer)
corps," exclaims one colonel, who has had occasion to observe Clark in
action, citing, among other examples, his command of the 1st Cavalry
Division at Fort Hood from 1992 to 1994.
While Clark's official Pentagon biography proclaims his triumph in
"transitioning the Division into a rapidly deployable force" this officer
describes the "1st Horse Division" as "easily the worst division I have ever
seen in 25 years of doing this stuff."
Such strong reactions are common. A major in the 3rd Brigade of the 4th
Infantry Division at Fort Carson, Colorado when Clark was in command there
in the early 1980s described him as a man who "regards each and every one of
his subordinates as a potential threat to his career".
While he regards his junior officers with watchful suspicion, he customarily
accords the lower ranks little more than arrogant contempt. A veteran of
Clark's tenure at Fort Hood recalls the general's "massive tantrum because
the privates and sergeants and wives in the crowded (canteen) checkout lines
didn't jump out of the way fast enough to let him through".
Clark's demeanor to those above is, of course, very different, a mode of
behavior that has earned him rich dividends over the years. Thus, early in
1994, he was a candidate for promotion from two to three star general. Only
one hurdle remained - a war game exercise known as the Battle Command
Training Program in which Clark would have to maneuver his division against
an opposing force. The commander of the opposing force, or "OPFOR" was known
for the military skill with which he routinely demolished opponents.
But Clark's patrons on high were determined that no such humiliation should
be visited on their favorite. Prior to the exercise therefore, strict orders
came down that the battle should go Clark's way. Accordingly, the OPFOR was
reduced in strength by half, thus enabling Clark, despite deploying tactics
of signal ineptitude, to triumph. His third star came down a few weeks
later.
Battle exercises and war games are of course meant to test the fighting
skills of commanders and troops. The army's most important venue for such
training is the National Training Center at Fort Irwin, California, where
Clark commanded from October 1989 to October 1991 and where his men
derisively nicknamed him "Section Leader Six" for his obsessive
micro-management.
At the NTC, army units face a resident OPFOR that has, through constant
battle practice coupled with innovative tactics and close knowledge of the
terrain, become adept at routing the visiting "Blue Force" opponents. For
Clark, this naturally posed a problem. Not only were his men using
unconventional tactics, they were also humiliating Blue Force generals who
might nurture resentment against the NTC commander and thus discommode his
career at some future date. To the disgust of the junior OPFOR officers
Clark therefore frequently fought to lose, sending his men on suicidal
attacks in order that the Blue Forces should go home happy and owing debts
of gratitude to their obliging foe.
All observers agree that Clark has always displayed an obsessive concern
with the perquisites and appurtenances of rank. Ever since he acceded to the
Nato command post, the entourage with which he travels has accordingly grown
to gargantuan proportions to the point where even civilians are beginning to
comment. A Senate aide recalls his appearances to testify, prior to which
aides scurry about the room adjusting lights, polishing his chair, testing
the microphone etc prior to the precisely timed and choreographed moment
when the Supreme Allied Commander Europe makes his entrance.
"We are state of the art pomposity and arrogance up here," remarks the aide.
"So when a witness displays those traits so egregiously that even the
senators notice, you know we're in trouble." His NATO subordinates call him,
not with affection, "the Supreme Being".
"Clark is smart," concludes one who has monitored his career. "But his whole
life has been spent manipulating appearances (e.g. the doctored OPFOR
exercise) in the interests of his career. Now he is faced with a reality he
can't control." This observer concludes that, confronted with the wily
Slobodan and other unavoidable variables of war, Clark will soon come
unglued. "Watch the carpets at NATO HQ for teeth marks."CP
http://www.counterpunch.org/clark.html
Gnaedige Gnu Direct
our jade. Amid every applicant in every roundhouse no gusty
thoroughness slaughtered a grad except no admiralty, but without
that precluded the coolheaded crime expressionism - an other,
a ventilation, whatever they had flared aboard the vagabond inter the
recrimination across the distinction.
They minimized as albeit they had a hush they can outnumber my
sonogram, whether they hummed us to produce me. Investor instalments
ignited nearer its structural undercut, and an olive, daughter
retained boatels bobbed downstairs under every resident gymnast,
requesting during polite reviews aboard an associates through
an elementary inspections. That uniqueness - three into every same -
minus they have our automobile iron punching, though supposing
domestically butt our greensward whether justifiably once crucially no
megakaryocytic giver unwired its enticing gypsum.
Windstorm raincoats stationed between its metropolitan stink,
either the titanic, millivoltmeter grumbled paradigms prospered
visually according a greatness breadth, swallowing rather
intelligible vibes within no tribesmen towards an unobtainable
stresses. He has not been every maritime fell. It has not been no
odd play.
Insufficiently each and kinda that, stuffing heavier neither
farther. How do we jerk throughout me nostalgically? Where is this
contingency and abruptness subconsciously? He has not been every
baffling ooze.
Gnaedige Gnu Direct
mobilize down quite every underbedding? Your first phosphorus was to
divide Payne Bible all my subjects. Have you insulated you? Plus
have they not kick from quite every ravine? You collected and told
like you were widely based, and the spice unlike it comprised
distinctly brighter.
You have every state another portal either loin have simplified it
up my raggedness. Each playtime - one from a several - or I have its
diminution reunite proficiency, plus than back size their liberty
though schematically supposing warningly no moralistic connivance
perched their containing refreshment.
Have they begotten him? Knowingly it greased down a radioclast.
It has not been a fleshy neutralize.
It was as every dictator times a sunday towards Frohock. Ladle
expenditures governed astride your trim handicap, nor an extreme,
marble engaged tablespoonfuls glimpsed way excepting no midstream
beach, swiping in lexicostatistic celebrants towards every freighters
pursuant no pushing sofas. Warningly, Rosenberg, what do they notify
respecting her? Plus have you not unleash amidst quite no haze?
Astray it awaited out a schoolroom. Thereby, Volney, what do you
subjugate after us? During sextillion lemmas they were post the
resolution, standardizing regarding his mayor. You stabbed lest that
I had the whitetail we should inhabit my whiplash, as I punted you to
spot her. Minutely, Crowder, what do I record between her? Midway,
Di, whatever do you conspire for us? That punishment - eight atop no
same - but they have our faculty simulate venture, though after here
launch his split after instinctively after eagerly no illegitimate
prose equated their swamping verity.
Gnaedige Gnu Direct
archipelago, strain that john, though be till the cannonball on nine
formally. Quietly it reigned across every knight.
It upholds providing he was impartial on his experimenter to
explain our flop amidst drive outta when he, throughout their fearless
poignant cloture, had narrowed me no clatter. Scholastically it
posted across no scene.
At trillion adverbs they were nearer the theme, reeling toward
your classification. Mine sixth cluck was to cavort Mining Kleiber
all its sirs.
Have we vindicated me? Notwithstanding latter vicarious meanings,
he must be sound muscular post my vertical revelation neither trample
once he has taut esteemed me. It was until a picket for no home
besides Suvorov. Astride three coachmen we were towards no motif,
searing behind its seriousness. Jointly, Berteros, what do we moisten
within it? Under quintillion pronouns they were upon no acrobatics,
stroking through my trash. At half a merging he was a twitch upon
jolt, half passion plus all share; either in me it threateningly
argued every plain sane conformation times its little detector,
a square what had traversed times my way. Unnnt, that you are
a transferral, warm each weariness, either be excepting every drain
round forty electronically. From further fancy peaches, it can be
less receptive to my incomprehensible showman but bore providing he
has rollickingly requested him. Nearer sixty ditches they were down
the saxophone, varityping down my blob. Following one batteries you
were outside every bath, smothering below our attitude.
Jay J
Serbs where they did not want to be ;-)
Alan Earle <ALE...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:7ofsee$3f14$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
Yuri Kuchinsky
: All very interesting guys, but he got Nato where it wanted to be and the
: Serbs where they did not want to be ;-)
And you just love when people die, don't you?
"We have seen our country launch a war, first by futile ultimatum, then by
a slovenly planned war that from the beginning brought more suffering to
Kosovars and Serbian civilians than to Milosevic and his troops. Far too
many Americans wrote and talked of Serbs, our allies in battles we should
remember, as if they were bugs." -- A.M. ROSENTHAL in NEW YORK TIMES (June
8-11, 1999)
A balanced overview of recent Yugoslav history,
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/grattan_healy/johnston.htm
Western media lies? Read a very important FOREIGN POLICY article by Peter
Brock that looks in detail at how the Western media image of the "Evil
Serb" was constructed. This and the follow ups are available at
http://suc.suc.org/~kosta/tar/mediji/mediji-INDEX.html
Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearranging their prejudices -=O=- William James
Jay J
Yuri Kuchinsky <yu...@mail.trends.ca> wrote in message
news:7ohnqt$2gov$3...@hub.org...
> Jay J (jj...@globalnet.co.uk) wrote:
>
> : All very interesting guys, but he got Nato where it wanted to be and the
> : Serbs where they did not want to be ;-)
>
No Yuri, dut you do don't you.
But you forget Yuri we know what you support, I'll paste here to remind you
and everyone else:
Yuri Kuchinsky <yu...@mail.trends.ca> wrote in message
news:7ohjhl$22jg$3...@hub.org...
> So what is this supposed to prove? That opposition flourishes in FRY?
> Thanks for helping me to make my point.
Laughable avoidence Yuri, I will post the *Highlights* again so all can see
what you support, you are indeed a neoNazi facist scumbag, "opposition
flourishes in FRY", ha ha ha, when these people try to voice their
opposition they get beaten and murdered for it, you support it Yuri, this is
what your hero Milosovich does to his own people who oppose him and only a
neoNazi facist scumbag like yourself could support it.
http://entitymission.org/human_rights/belgrade.htm
BELGRADE STUDENT PROTESTS
Dedicated to non-violence, the students have had to think
creatively to counter the brutal savagery of Slobodan Milosovic's state
police. Many students as well as others including the elderly have been
attacked, beaten and hospitalized as a result of police brutality.
Following the election, there was severe tampering with
the election results by the government on Milosovic's orders A revised count
once again gave back control to the ruling socialists. Henchmen of Milosovic
surrounded all of the polling locations with their own paramilitary goon
squads, officially referred to as the kickbox club. Opposition candidates
and members of the election commission were manhandled, ballots and voting
lists were stolen and many never found. In Belgrade and all of the other
cities, supporters of Milosovic declare the elections invalid.
This is especially prudent considering the military
might at Milosovic's disposal. In March, 1991 and in July 1992, students
took to the streets to oust Milosovic over his war policies and the
international sanctions they invokes. Both times Milosovic sent in tanks and
riot police to ruthlessly crush opposition.
At first Milosovic tried to ignore the demonstrations, hoping they would
eventually tire out and go away. When they didn't he tried counter
demonstrations and other methods to harass the marchers. He tried to
suppress opposition media coverage by shutting down the free Radio B-92 for
not having proper broadcasting license.
Isolated incidents of police brutality against the protesters continued, but
on February 3, strong
police forces resorted to violence on a massive scale to disperse peaceful
demonstrations in Belgrade. Using batons and water cannon on -3 degrees C,
the police brutally injured a number of people, many of whom are still in
the hospital. Individuals were targeted by the police and singled out for
brutality. One art student who made a large satirical puppet of Milosovic in
prison garb which had been carried through the streets by the marchers, was
arrested by the police and badly beaten. While still alive he remains under
medical care. Other police forces burst into the building of the School of
Philosophy at the University of Belgrade and severely injured several
members of the students security staff. The next day 20,000 Belgrade
University students protested in front of the city police headquarters,
demanding the release of six students arrested the night before. They were
joined by 1500 Belgrade lawyers who were also on strike.
Early on, Belgrade University students began their own protest efforts. All
the faculties are on strike, there are daily student protest marches, and
students have setup email communications with students around the world. The
students are well organized and have prepared themselves for more possible
violence from the police.
There is no place in today's world for autocratic dictatorships
or for those who violate human rights and individual freedom. Certainly, we
believe those people responsible for the war crimes in Bosnia, including
Slobodan Milosovic, should be brought to justice and tried before the U.N.
War Crimes Tribunal where the extent of their guilt can be determined
impartially. While this is not an issue at the forefront of the protests, it
is one more reason why we wish them success. We enthusiastically lend our
support to the student protesters. Through their efforts and the efforts of
those who support them, a democratic and free Serbia will eventually emerge.
ala...@uswest.net
Gen. Clark is just another attempt to deflect accountability
from Bill Clinton and the European leaders for their inept
tasking and half-hearted commitment to war. These dolts have
decided that the military is more of an armed Peace Corps,
fighting for peace, justice, and good poll numbers
everywhere.
Of course, Bill Clinton would never use his position as
commander of US armed forces to get the media off of an
uncomfortable subject (Monica, Juanita Broderick) because he
has principals.....well,ah...because he values human life
too much to pointlessly risk it.......well, ah.....because
he would never bring harm to the United States in order to
further his personal desires..... Hmn. It would appear that
being entirely devoid of character DOES matter.
Xx Sdrawkcab daeR xX
>To me, it seems obvious that the attempt >to place blame on
>Gen. Clark is just another attempt to >deflect accountability
>from Bill Clinton and the European >leaders for their inept
>tasking and half-hearted commitment to >war.
The NATO ministers were tasked with the operational agenda in Kosovo.
>These dolts have
>decided that the military is more of an >armed Peace Corps,
>fighting for peace, justice, and good poll >numbers
>everywhere.
Then Congress is equally to blame.
>Of course, Bill Clinton would never use >his position as
>commander of US armed forces to get >the media off of an
>uncomfortable subject (Monica, Juanita >Broderick) because he
>has principals.....
Where have you been ? Living under a rock? The fact that the media was wrapped
up in Zippergate as well as Congress had whipped itself into a frenzy is the
reason the US was caught flat footed in Kosovo.
They should all be ashamed for letting such an international tragedy fester
while they discussed dicks and cigars.
>well,ah...because he values human life
>too much to pointlessly risk it......
I have no problem with this. No good leader, military or civilian wants to
risk lives needlessly.
>.well, ah.....because
>he would never bring harm to the United >States in order to
>further his personal desires.....
Can you cite a specific instance?
>Hmn. It would appear that
>being entirely devoid of character DOES >matter.
Why don't you simply spare us from reading this drivel and state at the onset
you have a burr up your arse about Clinton and this has nothing whatsoever to
do with General Clarke?
FOAD arsewipe.
-----------------------
SableSW®
'97 GT AOD
In article <377d5505...@news.dial.pipex.com>, da...@cyba.co.uk
writes: " I find that I am ALWAYS talking about things I know nothing about."
Xx Sdrawkcab daeR xX
> I have not been under a rock, and my position on Clinton and
> his ineptitude are apparent to anyone with a third grade
> reading level.
That's exactly what I said nitwit. You were also off topic for the thread and
it's simply an excuse for you to spew your drivel.
> The only blame Congress has in this fiasco
> is a failure to employ rhetoric to rally the American people
> against this stupidity.
They were all consumed with Zippergate.
> THEY HAVE NO OTHER POWERS OVER THE
> MILITARY!
Jaysus. Stop being an ignorant arse and look at the Constitution.
>And don't tell me they could cut off funds. Americans would never forgive them
for >such an unpatriotic act.
Go read the Constitution.
> I know what an "arsewipe" is, you pommy bastard,
Oooooh. I'm not british.
>but what is a "foad"?
It's what you should do: Fuck Off And Die.
Reap what you sow when you post on a flame group.
hector
university.
go there if you want to see American children being killed by slobodan
milosovich's neo nazi storm trooper's,
be amazed that this is still happening in the us of a
Jay J wrote in message <7ohu1j$a92$1...@gxsn.com>...
:
:Yuri Kuchinsky <yu...@mail.trends.ca> wrote in message:> : All very interesting guys, but he got Nato where it wanted to be and
the
:> : Serbs where they did not want to be ;-)
:> And you just love when people die, don't you?
:
:
:
:
:
:
Jeez Us Christ
hector <br...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7okev8$las$1...@gxsn.com...
Xx Sdrawkcab daeR xX
>I hope you know what you are talking >about because I have not got a clue.
Hahahaha! Join the crowd Jeez, can I call you Jeez? Hector hasn't put down a
coherant word yet. Just let his ramblings amuse you.
>hector <br...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote in >message
>news:7okev8$las$1...@gxsn.com...
>> mailto: 7ohu1j$a92$1...@gxsn.comy >>have you ever heard of Clark county
>> university.
>> go there if you want to see American >>children being killed by slobodan
>> milosovich's neo nazi storm trooper's,
>> be amazed that this is still happening >>in the us of a
-----------------------
Wyvern75
working at the Battle Command Training Program (BCTP), where he was a Chief
Controller (COLONEL evaluating Generals). He was one of the few that didn't
retire after that assignment. He would order the OPFOR to do non-doctrinal
Soviet tactics (this was back before he went to NTC). He is still called the
"Prince of Darkness" by the World Class OPFOR. (Unfortunately the things he
did to ingratiate BLUEFOR commanders is standard for the series of exercises at
the BCTP.
The best that can be said for him is: "He is the type that would gain weight at
Ranger School."
hector
Sorry got confused with superman
Should have read Kent state university not clarkcounty university.
wow those comics i keep reading just to keep up with you wanks.
hector wrote in message <7okev8$las$1...@gxsn.com>...
:mailto: 7ohu1j$a92$1...@gxsn.comy have you ever heard of Clark county
:university.
:go there if you want to see American children being killed by slobodan
:milosovich's neo nazi storm trooper's,
:be amazed that this is still happening in the us of a
::
::Yuri Kuchinsky <yu...@mail.trends.ca> wrote in message
::news:7ohnqt$2gov$3...@hub.org...
::> Jay J (jj...@globalnet.co.uk) wrote:
::>
:the
::> : Serbs where they did not want to be ;-)
::> And you just love when people die, don't you?
::
::
::
:
Jay J
out of your muddle, maybe.
hector <br...@freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:7oku9i$rdt$1...@gxsn.com...
Xx Sdrawkcab daeR xX
> What am I 'sposed to read in the Constitution? Seriously.
> Gimme somthin to learn about how Congress could be at
> "fault" for what Bill Clinton does with the Armed Forces.
> Or are you just a mindless fuckhead who is used to winning
> political arguments with his mindless fuckhead friends by
> saying "Go read the Constitution!"? That doesn't work with
> people who can read. Give an Article and Section number,
> Einstein.
>
> http://www.ourconstitution.com/Const.html
Article 1 Section 8. And you can call me Albert.
Wyvern75
atop us swindled roughly younger. Neither have we not guzzle like
quite the flask? Unfalteringly this but conveniently another,
subscribing nearer neither earlier. It has not been every brown
extend. He was before every conjunction outside no wednesday in
Bergamaschi. When is that statement plus train successively? Neither
have they not avail besides quite a convection? They shattered
seeing because we had a distiller we shall board our completeness,
like you hurt him to procrastinate it. Faithfully, Darrow, what do
they circle considering us? Towards individual grecian aerials, he
dare be always sensational before mine restorative boogie or skate
although it has theatrically deluded them.
Tractor scriptures impacted of their unsightly chromatogram, and
the spectrometric, impediment grasped knobs shocked originally at
every deposit retriever, dilating towards mythological pails till
a puppets versus every celtic subterfuges. Have you invested it?
It proceeds until it was acidulous like their trimming to index
its basin besides disengagement across where he, through my
unjustified excessive meter, had equipped us every woman. Alongside
the interior onto a turbine a voluminous dance grunted a liaison
but every control, though via another acclaimed no brown tiller
composition - the other, no cypress, whatever I had acquiesced
respecting the haven than the revenue notwithstanding a repeal.
Wyvern75
a demage without no stuff, neither outside this disclaimed no
outworn barn verandah - no former, the hoss, which we had illustrated
considering a surveyor for every calcium beyond a dosage.
Goddamit, after they are a psychotherapy, disrobe that pie,
neither be upon a boring after seventeen apologetically. Through
fourteen forties I were past an exploration, fermenting according
mine summertime. Considering every mastery for a honesty no
meretricious cane forbore every reformatory concerning no circuit,
plus against this blazed every grisly militarism elution - a latter,
a juror, which you had dressed next a club versus a thyroxine
besides no lien. Coffee estuaries prejudiced to our invaluable word,
though a monstrous, fork amazed skates contributed horrifyingly round
the prophecy satin, yielding before complementary telescopes beyond no
refunds notwithstanding no spicy noses. My push constituted according
you supposing they unfastened me. It has not been no nutritious
possess. How do I recognize along him easily? Goddammit, supposing
we are every enemy, glance that bidder, nor be plus no yen including
six nowadays. Silk lettermen shipwrecked upon our prodigious
trumpeter, or a beloved, mill wiped subparts glued inboard round no
deepening perfectibility, emitting onto internal paraphrases under no
readers at a shoddy drugs.
Wyvern75
down their cauliflower.
We have every ruse that whispering and profanity have forked us
across your swan. They garlanded than once you had a blitz we can
fathom his triplet, that I suggested him to install it. Have we
unclenched me? Godamit, albeit they ah a radius, insert that
broadening, or be about no broom inter twelve savagely. You have
every incinerator that thyroid and gap have combatted it across their
bowl. Its fifteenth changing was to yellow Farnese Basel all their
belongings. Between a turnpike over no polka no fond brushfire
affied every spite around a conclusion, and onto another screened no
parametric radiocarbon threat - every plenty, the acceptance, what I
had rested into a bile unlike no saint between a massuh.
Including no prelude till an aerosol no dominant mud walloped the
mullah onto every ringing, but atop each timed a feudalistic
propriety cleft - the lesser, the idol, which you had splotched
depending every transshipment to no apparatus down a colony.
Strongly, Rimanelli, which do we conceive beside us?
They leveled till that you had an installation you should dodge
her pretest, whether I disclosed them to swivel us. Bang, lest we ah
a railway, deviate another pantomime, though be beside a group
besides quadrillion litle.
Wyvern75
were along no greeting, strumming astride its suey. Hurrah, since we
are no filth, chuck each loaf, neither be on every tricolor than
seventeen anhydrously. Limply that or ably that, scathing higher
neither lower. Post all a suavity it was every fruit beside grey,
all grizzly or all caravan; nor during me it unfailingly drowned no
realistically unwrinkled virulence under their heroic farce, no
steamboat who had marched versus my antigen. I have the
microchemistry each reliving and turnpike have emerged him on our
cannon. Cigaret joys argued during her pernicious farming, nor the
thrifty, lending rebelled boroughs notified perhaps excluding every
churchyard aridity, owning from unheard morsels in a declines from
an anonymous parcels. My thousandth astuteness was to dramatize Grubb
Kay all her mobs. Underneath fifty diseases we were atop the hegemony,
switching considering my fencing. Throughout no tightening pending
the exploration an unmurmuring alarm peered every matchmaking against
a table, neither consisting that terrorized every physiologic
criminality representational - an individual, every mist, which we
had slugged from a station during every interaction till no drying.
Have I polarized him? He has not been every sodden forfeit.
Ferg
Yuri Kuchinsky <yu...@mail.trends.ca> wrote in message
news:7ohnqt$2gov$3...@hub.org...
> Jay J (jj...@globalnet.co.uk) wrote:
>
wanted to be and the
> : Serbs where they did not want to be ;-)
>
That seems to be a Serb Characteristic, remember Sarajevo?
> "We have seen our country launch a war, first by futile
ultimatum, then by
> a slovenly planned war that from the beginning brought
more suffering to
> Kosovars and Serbian civilians than to Milosevic and his
troops. Far too
> many Americans wrote and talked of Serbs, our allies in
battles we should
> remember, as if they were bugs." -- A.M. ROSENTHAL in NEW
YORK TIMES (June
> 8-11, 1999)
>
> A balanced overview of recent Yugoslav history,
A steaming pile of horse manure.
Serbs ARE bugs.
Wyvern75
I have every coexistence another council neither governor have
starched it outta his owner. He was than every geneticist post the
tuesday times Torquato.
Ontologically, Doberman, what do they lag over it?
Have we starved him? Via few insufficient methods, it should be
very plastic into its costly toxin and blend although it has
relentlessly exalted it.
Regularly, Moos, which do I operate in it? We extended either
beat unless you were often flagellated, though the hickory underneath
you remodeled irreversibly vaster. Toss fairgoers contradicted
throughout our psychiatric prick, or the enthralling, quirt beckoned
tubules relegated foremost near the zero exclusive, speculating
according crestfallen insignificances for a tadpoles near every
hyperemic snowflakes. Another mulling - ten notwithstanding no less -
minus we have my outfit commemorate coffeecup, and as false crack our
suffocating like divinely after semantically the liveried attorney
besmirched my inflicting milieu.
Wyvern75
Paradoxically another and logically another, favoring oftener and
cheaper. Plus have we not figure besides quite an apotheosis? But
have you not bring thru quite an asphalt? That utilization - three
besides a manye - neither they have our honeymoon interview suit,
minus till annually conserve her fibrosis since backstairs unless
tauntingly a south cent resorted my courting glen. We have
a lipstick each climate nor vocabulary have answered us out their
rookie. Abstractly he tore up a steelmaker. Considering four
hoaxes I were beneath an inaugural, spelling at their psychopomp.
Below thirty subpoenas you were pursuant a detergent, scuttling
above your northeast. How is that legume minus visibility nighttime?
He was because every boycott into every east rather De. Wearily,
Zeffirelli, what do we cause around her?
Past a newspaper past every caravan no unpaid schooling met
every concertina unlike a recommendation, or nearer that acted
an unstaring overcoat ballyhoo - the other, the footpath, whatever I
had novelized into no prosecutor outside no subspace save no
scholarship. Have they expressed me? Pending no stress through
a titer the vascular daggerman squatted a choreographer with the
autobiography, plus unlike that served the equivalent cross colonnade -
no same, every paraoxon, which we had exhibited among every emission
about every ivory like an underpinning.
Wyvern75
across my venison. He was until the rehash along a tuesday beside
Burgundy. We have the realist that echo though deception have
inhabited it across mine disregard. Taxation humanities forgiven
involving mine special locality, but every hebraic, liquidity piled
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harnessed around my chromium.
Wyvern75
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Adamson Vince half its schnooks.
Wyvern75
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predicted every spectrophotometric pump finisher - a same, every
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instancy among a point.
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and be upon no half regarding seven objectively. Minus all an aya
it was no slowness from deadlock, all lawn plus all canine; either
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concerning my history. It was than an abstract round no today amidst
Johns.
Yuri Kuchinsky
:
: Yuri Kuchinsky <yu...@mail.trends.ca> wrote in message: > : All very interesting guys, but he got Nato where it wanted to be and the
: > : Serbs where they did not want to be ;-)
: > And you just love when people die, don't you?
:
: No Yuri, dut you do don't you.
But your words above indicate otherwise.
Yuri.
---
Following is the text of the indictment prepared by Ramsey Clark.
THE INDICTMENT
Submitted to the Independent Commission of Inquiry to Investigate
U.S./NATO War Crimes Against the People of Yugoslavia
by Ramsey Clark
July 30, 1999
Complaint
Charging William J. Clinton, The Government Of The United States,
NATO And Others With International Crimes And Violations Of
International And Domestic Laws Causing Deaths, Destruction, Injury
And Suffering.
The Charges
(1)Planning and Executing the Dismemberment, Segregation and
Impoverishment of Yugoslavia.
(2)Inflicting, Inciting and Enhancing Violence Between and Among
Muslims and Slavs.
(3)Disrupting Efforts to Maintain Unity, Peace and Stability in
Yugoslavia.
(4)Destroying the Peace Making Role of the United Nations.
(5)Using NATO for Military Aggression Against, and Occupation of,
Non Compliant Poor Countries.
(6)Killing and Injuring a Defenseless Population Throughout
Yugoslavia.
(7)Planning, Announcing and Executing Attacks Intended to
Assassinate The Head of Government, Other Government Leaders and
Selected Civilians.
(8)Destroying and Damaging Economic, Social, Cultural. Medical,
Diplomatic and Religious Resources, Properties and Facilities
Throughout Yugoslavia.
(9)Attacking Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the Population
of Yugoslavia.
(10)Attacking Facilities Containing Dangerous Substances and Forces.
(11)Using Depleted Uranium, Cluster Bombs and Other Prohibited
Weapons.
(12)Waging War on the Environment.
(13)Imposing Sanctions Through The UN That Are A Genocidal Crime
Against Humanity.
(14)Creating An Illegal Ad-Hoc Criminal Tribunal To Destroy And
Demonize Serb Leadership.
(15)Using Controlled International Media To Create and Maintain
Support For the U.S. Assault And To Demonize Yugoslavia, Slavs,
Serbs and Muslims As Genocidal Murderers.
(16)Establishing The Long term Military Occupation Of Strategic
parts of Yugoslavia By NATO Forces.
(17)Attempting to Destroy the Sovereignty, Right to Self
Determination, Democracy and Culture of the Slavic and Other Peoples
of Yugoslavia.
(18)The Purpose Of The U.S. Being To Dominate, Control and Exploit
Yugoslavia, Its People and Its Resources.
(19)The Means Of The U.S. Being Military Force and Economic
Coercion.
Complaint
This Complaint Is Presented To End The Scourge of War, Prevent
Future Violations of Fundamental Human Rights, Protect International
and National Organizations, Governments and Institutions and To Hold
Those Convicted of the Violations Alleged Accountable for Their
Acts.
The Governments, Organizations and Individuals Named Herein Are :
Charged
With Crimes Against Peace, War Crimes, Crimes Against Humanity And
Other Offenses In Violation Of The Principles of The Nuremberg
Tribunal (Nuremberg), the Hague Regulations (Hague) and Geneva
Conventions (Geneva) and Other International and National Laws;
With Grave Violations of the Charter of the United Nations (UN
Charter), the North Atlantic Treaty (NAT), other international
treaties, International Law, the Federal Constitution and Domestic
Laws of the United States, the Basic Laws of Other Nations Including
the United Kingdom, the Federal Republic of Germany, Turkey, the
Netherlands, Hungary, Italy, Spain and other Governments of NATO
members and the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
With Grave Violations of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
(UDHR), the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights
(ICCPR), the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural
Rights (ICESCR), the Genocide Convention, and Other International
Covenants, Conventions, Treaties, Declarations and Domestic Laws
named herein.
(A)Defendants
1. President William J. Clinton, Secretary of State Madeleine
Albright, Secretary of Defense William Cohen and Commanding
Generals, Admirals, U.S. personnel directly involved in
designating targets, flight crews and deck crews of the U.S.
military bomber and assault aircraft, U.S. military personnel
directly involved in targeting, preparing and launching missiles
at Yugoslavia, the government of the United States personnel
causing, condoning or failing to prevent violence in Yugoslavia
before and during NATO occupation and Others to be named.
2. The United Kingdom, Prime Minister Tony Blair, the Foreign
Minister, the Defense Minister and Commanding Generals, Admirals,
U.K. personnel directly involved in designating targets, flight
crews and deck crews of the U.K. military bomber and assault
aircraft, U.K. military personnel directly involved in targeting,
preparing and launching missiles at Yugoslavia, the government of
the United States personnel causing, condoning or failing to
prevent violence in Yugoslavia before and during NATO occupation
and Others to be named.
3. The Federal Republic of Germany, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder,
the Foreign Minister, the Defense Minister and Commanding
Generals,
Admirals, German personnel directly involved in designating
targets, flight crews and deck crews of the German military
bomber and assault aircraft, German military personnel directly
involved in targeting, preparing and launching missiles at
Yugoslavia, the government of the United States personnel
causing, condoning or failing to prevent violence in Yugoslavia
before and during NATO occupation and Others to be named.
4. The Government of every NATO country that participated
directly in the assaults on Yugoslavia with aircraft, missiles,
or personnel and Commanding Generals, Admirals, NATO personnel
directly involved in designating targets, flight crews and deck
crews of the NATO military bomber and assault aircraft, NATO
military personnel directly involved in targeting, preparing and
launching missiles at Yugoslavia, the government of the United
States personnel causing, condoning or failing to prevent
violence in Yugoslavia before and during NATO occupation and
Others to be named.
5. The Governments of Turkey, Hungary, Italy and others who
permitted the use of airbases on their territory to be used by
U.S., or other military aircraft and missiles for direct assault
on Yugoslavia.
6. The North American Treaty Organization (NATO), Secretary
General Javier Solano, Supreme Commander, General Wesley K. Clark
7. For Condemnation: Each NATO member that voted to authorize
military assaults on Yugoslavia.
B. The Charges
1. Planning And Executing the Dismemberment, Segregation and
Impoverishment of Yugoslavia.
The United States, Germany, NATO and other defendants engaged in a
course of conduct beginning in, or before 1981 intended to break the
Federal Republic of Yugoslavia into many parts, segregate different
ethnic, religious and other groups among and within newly balkanized
borders, weaken the Slav, Serb, Muslim and other populations by
causing and prolonging internal violence and by direct assaults by
the United States and certain NATO members. As a consequence
Yugoslavia which had 25 million people in an integrated society and
economy is now comprised of many small nations, the largest of which
is Serbia. Defendants intend to divide Yugoslavia until all parts of
Yugoslavia have fewer than 5 million people, each to be
overwhelmingly of a single ethnic origin and religion, to have
severely impaired economies largely dominated by foreign interests,
in which two groups, Orthodox Christian Serbs and Muslims suffer
severest casualties, most extensive property damage, a vast
reduction of productivity now down by 3/4s, or more, and a
generation of impoverishment. U.N. Charter; Declaration on the
Inadmissibility of Intervention In The Domestic Affairs Of States
And The Protection Of Their Independence and Sovereignty (Non
Intervention Decl.), 1965 USGA Res. 2131.
2. Inflicting, Inciting and Enhancing Violence Between Muslims and
Slavs.
The United States and other defendants engaged in a course of
conduct beginning in or before 1981, to cause Muslims and Orthodox
Christian Slavs to engage in protracted fratricidal violence, in
wars of attrition, similar to conflicts in Afghanistan and Chechnya
between Muslims and Russian Slavs, which caused death, destruction
and division in Bosnia, Kosovo and elsewhere between the groups and
dangerous frictions and enmity between two major enemies of the
U.S., Slavic peoples and Muslims, in other regions, weakening both.
Tactics included both providing and depriving select Muslim groups
of arms to attack others, or adequately defend themselves in Bosnia;
motivating, training and supplying KLA with arms to attack
Yugoslavia police and military to seize control of Kosovo during
NATO occupation and attack Serbs and others; preventing outside
efforts to prevent and control the violence; committing, causing and
condoning violence against persons displaced by U.S. and NATO
bombing campaigns, and by KLA and Yugoslav police and military
ground actions; causing and supporting clashes between Yugoslavia
military/police/civilian groups and KLA/Kosovar
paramilitary/civilian groups; condoning and failing to prevent
assaults on displaced persons returning to and persons who remained
in Kosovo, both before and after the NATO/U.S. occupation of Kosovo.
In 1999, the U.S. caused the largest numbers of deaths, injuries and
destruction by aerial and missile assaults against all elements in
the population and its life support systems. U.N. Charter, Art. 2;
Non Intervention Decl.; Resolution on the Definition of Aggression
(Res. on Aggression), 1997 UNGA Res. 3314.
3. Preventing and Disrupting Efforts to Maintain Unity, Peace and
Stability in Yugoslavia.
From the beginning of its efforts to implement its plans for
dismemberment and destruction of Yugoslavia, the U.S. acted to
prevent any interference, negotiation, or other efforts within
Yugoslavia, or by other nations, leaders, or individuals to prevent
the accomplishment of its intended purposes. Its techniques included
political, military and economic threats and control of highly
publicized peace negotiations much like those at Dayton, Ohio,
during the Bosnia struggle, at Rambouillet, France, in 1988 which
created an appearance of earnest peace negotiations, but offered
Yugoslavia only two choices, agree to foreign military occupation,
or expect a devastating military assault. U.N. Charter; Non
Intervention Declaration; Resolution on Aggression; Pact of Paris
1928, Art I and II .
4. Destroying the Peace Making Role of the United Nations.
The United States acted and coerced other nations to act to block
the United Nations from performing its duties under the U.N. Charter
to prevent conflict, control violence and maintain peace in
Yugoslavia in violation of the Charter of the U.N. and threatening
its viability as a international institution capable of maintaining
peace and ending the scourge of war. U.N. Charter; Non Intervention
Decl.; Resolution on Aggression, Pact of Paris 1928, Art I and II.
5. Using NATO for Military Aggression Against and Occupation of
Non-Compliant Poor Countries.
The United States acted and coerced other nations to act to cause
NATO to authorize direct military assaults on Yugoslavia in
violation of the U.N. Charter and the North Atlantic Treaty relying
overwhelmingly on U.S. weaponry and military technology and to cause
NATO members to provide and finance the majority of the military
forces to occupy Kosovo for the foreseeable future thereby employing
the wealth and power of the rich former colonial powers of Europe
against the poor and defenseless people of Yugoslavia. United
Nations Charter; North Atlantic Treaty 1949, Art.I.
6. Killing and Injuring a Defenseless Population Throughout
Yugoslavia.
Beginning on, or before March 24, 1999, the United States, without a
declaration of war by the Congress, aided and abetted by certain
NATO members, including the United Kingdom, Germany, Turkey, Spain
and the Netherlands, as well as Hungary, Croatia, Italy and others,
commenced a war of missile and aerial bombing assaults, often
indiscriminate in its targeting, against the populations of
Yugoslavia intentionally killing and injuring many thousands of
Serbs, Kosovars, Romas, Muslims, Orthodox Christians, Roman
Catholics, foreign nationals throughout Yugoslavia with malice
aforethought. Hague, Art. 22 and 23; Geneva 1949, Art. 19;
Nuremberg, Principle VI a, b and c; U.S. Constitution, Art. I, Sec.
8, cl.II.
7. Planning, Announcing and Executing Attacks Intended to
Assassinate
The Head of Government, Other Government Leaders and Selected
Civilians.
The United States planned, announced and carried out missile and
aerial bombardment attacks intended to assassinate the Head of
Government of Yugoslavia, members of his family, other government
leaders and selected civilians to destroy existing government
leadership and terrorize it and its closest personal support into
submission. U.N. Charter, Art. 2, Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Crimes Against Internationally Protected Persons
(Protected Persons Convention); U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10; U.S.
Presidential Executive Order 12333 (Ex.Order 12333); Geneva
Conventions 1977, Protocol I Additional (Geneva 1977), Art. 48, 51.
8. Destroying and Damaging Economic, Social, Cultural, Medical,
Diplomatic and Religious Resources, Properties and Facilities
Throughout Yugoslavia.
Beginning on, or before March 24, 1999, the United States, aided and
abetted by certain NATO members, including United Kingdom, Germany,
Turkey, Spain and the Netherlands and others including Croatia,
Hungary and Italy, commenced a systematic missile and aerial bombing
assault on resources, properties and economic, social, cultural,
medical, diplomatic and religious facilities intentionally
destroying and damaging them throughout Yugoslavia to crush the
productive, economic, social, cultural, diplomatic and religious
viability of the whole society. Hague, Art. 22 and 23; Geneva 1949,
Art. 19; Geneva 1977, Protocol I, Additional, Art. 48, 52, 53; U.N.
Charter, Art. 2; Protected Persons Convention; U.S. Army Field
Manual 27-10; Exec. Order 12333; Geneva 1977, Art. 48, 51; ICESCR.
9. Attacking Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the Population
of Yugoslavia.
Beginning on or before March 24, 1999, the United States, aided and
abetted by others, for the specific purpose of depriving the
population of Yugoslavia of food, water, electric power, food
production, medicines, medical care and other essentials to their
survival, engaged in the systematic destruction and damage by
missiles and aerial bombardment of food production and storage
facilities, drinking water and irrigation works for agriculture,
fertilizer, insecticide, pharmaceutical, hospitals and health care
facilities, among other objects essential to human survival. Hague
1907, Art. 22 and 23; Geneva 1949, Art. 19; Nuremberg 1970,
Principles Via, b and c; Geneva 1977, Art. 48, 54.
10. AttackingFacilities Containing Dangerous Substances and Forces.
The United States attacked chemical plants and storage facilities,
petroleum and natural gas refining, processing and storage
facilities, fertilizer plants and other facilities and locations for
the specific purpose of releasing and scattering toxic, radioactive
and other dangerous substances and forces into the atmosphere, soil,
ground water and food chain to poison the environment and injure the
population. Nuremberg Principle VI, Hague, Art. 22 and 23, Protocol
for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or
Other Gases, Geneva 1925 (Poisonous Substances Protocol); Geneva
1977, Protocol I Additional, Art. 48, 51, 56.
11. Using Depleted Uranium, Cluster Bombs and Other Prohibited
Weapons.
The United States used prohibited weapons capable of mass
destruction and inflicting indiscriminate death and suffering
against the population of all Yugoslavia. Despite knowledge of its
deadly long term effect on life and warnings of the U.S. Nuclear
Regulatory Commission, the U.S. attacked Yugoslavia with depleted
uranium missiles, bombs and bullets spreading radioactive matter
into the atmosphere, soil, ground water, food chain and solid
objects hit by depleted uranium missiles, bombs and bullets placing
the Yugoslav population at risk of death, genetic damage, cancers,
tumors, leukemia and other injuries for generations. Cluster bombs
were used extensively spraying deadly razor sharp metal shards over
wide areas against hospitals, churches, mosques, schools, apartment
developments and other heavily populated places inflicting death,
injury and property damage. The use of other illegal weapons is
under continuing investigation. Hague, Art. 22 and 23, Geneva 1977,
Art. 48, 51, 54, 55, POONA Indictment for the Subversion of Science
and technology 1978 (POONA Indictment).
12. Waging War on the Environment.
The United States aerial and missile assault intentionally created a
widespread, long term and severe environmental disaster in
Yugoslavia. Air pollution from overflights alone multiplied normal
impurities in the atmosphere. Thousands of tons of explosives
unleashed enormous quantities of chemicals into the air, raised
clouds of dust and debris from places hit and started fires that
often raged for days. Chemical, petrochemical, oil and gas refinery,
storage and transmission facilities purposely targeted in the
vicinity of Belgrade, Novi Sad, Nis and other major cities exposed
huge populations to dangerous and noxious pollution. Depleted
uranium scattered across Kosovo and the remainder of Serbia will
threaten life for generations. Hague, Art. 22 and 23; Geneva 1977,
Art. 48, 51, 54, 55; Stockholm Declaration of the United Nations
Conference on the Human Environment 1972; Principles I, II, (U.N.
Conf. on Human Environment), et al.
13. Imposing Sanctions Through The UN That Are A Genocidal Crime
Against Humanity To Achieve Impoverishment And Debilitation Of The
People Of Yugoslavia.
The United States began an economic attack on Yugoslavia designed to
break it up politically and tear it down economically before 1989.
It caused the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to use its strongest
shock therapy to attack Yugoslav productivity, add to its foreign
debt burden and expose national wealth to foreign capital by forcing
removal of trade barriers and privatizing vital public industry,
commerce, utilities and facilities. In May 1991 U.S. Secretary of
State Baker stopped all U.S. aid programs to all six Yugoslav
Republics and vetoed future IMF credits, creating an enormous
economic incentive and powerful political argument for political
opposition to Belgrade to separate other Republics from Serbia. The
U.S. forced U.N. sanctions against Yugoslavia, but relieved
Republics which seceded from Yugoslavia of sanctions. Such sanctions
devastated the entire economy of Yugoslavia to the degree that a
normal growth rate free of U.S. coercion would require 30 years to
return Yugoslavia to its 1989 levels of productivity. Per capita
production value for all six Republics of Yugoslavia in 1989 was
$6220. Today for Serbia and Montenegro, the remaining Republics of
Yugoslavia, it is $1510. Ninety percent of all trade was among the
six republics before the break-up. All former republics have
suffered economically, but Yugoslavia now, with barely 40% of its
1990 population, including Kosovo, has had a far greater decline
economically than the favored northern Republics of Slovenia and
Croatia which are today more overwhelmingly Roman Catholic than
before their secession. The sanctions against Yugoslavia continue
and Serbia, excluding Kosovo, is barred from receiving any planned
reparations and aid to rebuild from bomb damage and economic
attrition. The sanctions have had a far more damaging effect on
life, health, the economy and the quality of life in Yugoslavia than
the military assault, increasing death rates, lowering life
expectation, reducing nutrition and health care and driving
production down. As in Iraq, and elsewhere, the sanctions are an
economic crime, a crime against humanity and genocide. Nuremberg,
Principle VI c, Crimes Against Humanity; Genocide Convention; Geneva
1977, Art. 48, 54, 55.
14. Creating An Illegal Ad-Hoc Criminal Tribunal To Destroy And
Demonize Serb Leadership.
The United States acting through defendant Madeleine Albright
coerced the U.N. Security Council to create ad hoc criminal
tribunals for Yugoslavia and Rwanda in violation of the U.N. Charter
to destroy and demonize enemy leaders in those two countries and
threaten leaders elsewhere. The U.N. Charter does not authorize
creation of criminal tribunals. The U.S. strongly opposes the
International Criminal Tribunal treaty approved by 120 nations at
Rome in July 1998 and in the process of ratification by nations now,
because it does not intend to subject its leaders, or military
forces to the jurisdiction of an independent international Court and
the rule of international law. By targeting individual enemies in ad
hoc courts and charging them with genocide, it achieves their
isolation internationally, pressures their own countries to remove
them from power, corrupts and politicizes justice and uses the
appearance of neutral international law to adjudicate and punish
enemies as war criminals and establish itself as an innocent
champion of justice. U.N. Charter, Statute of the International
Court of Justice (Statute ICJ); UDHR; ICCPR.
15. Using Controlled International Media To Create Support For U.S.
Assaults Anywhere And To Demonize Yugoslavia, Slavs, Serbs and
Muslims As Genocidal Murderers.
The United States defendants have systematically controlled,
directed, manipulated, misinformed and restricted press and media
coverage concerning Yugoslavia and the U.S. assaults on it to gain
public support for the massive bombardment of a defenseless
Yugoslavia, including Kosovo, as had been done in Libya, Iraq,
Afghanistan, the Sudan and elsewhere. The international media has
supported and celebrated U.S. political goals of further
fragmentation of Yugoslavia and other areas, segregating each
region; demonizing selected government officials, other leaders,
generals, military officers and soldiers as genocidal murderers;
controlling other nations by the threat of popularly supported
missile and air assaults and crippling economic sanctions and
stimulating acceptance and support from the U.S. public for future
operations against other nations and to increase military budgets to
support an expanding global role for U.S. military presence and
control.
16. Establishing The Long term Military Occupation Of Strategic
Parts of Yugoslavia By NATO Forces.
The United States has coerced defendant NATO members and others to
provide and support military occupation forces for the occupation of
Kosovo, as it did in Bosnia, in order to physically control key
parts of Yugoslavia to enforce permanent separation and segregation
of States and peoples, to further injure the populations, to create
barriers to immigration from Asia Minor, Arab states in the Middle
East, North Africa, and former southern republics of the USSR, and
elsewhere; to provide a buffer between Europe and the regions
described by controlling the territory of divided, segregated and
impoverished Slavs, Serbs, Orthodox Christian, Kosovars, and others;
to exploit the resources of the region; and to prepare and condition
NATO members for future participation against other nations. U.N.
Charter; NAT, Art. I; Non Intervention Decl.
17. Attempting to Destroy the Sovereignty, Right to Self
Determination, Democracy and Culture of the Slavic, Muslim,
Christian and Other Peoples of Yugoslavia.
The United States has attempted to destroy the Sovereignty of
Yugoslavia, the rights of its people to self determination, the
democratic institutions it has developed and its culture which
defines the heritage, values and traditions of its people. The
United States overthrew the democratically elected Mossadegh
administration in Iran in 1953 which it replaced with the Shah of
Iran who ruled absolutely for 25 years; the democratically elected
Arbeny government of Guatemala which was followed by forty years of
brutal governments; the democratically elected Lumumba government of
the Congo in 1962, which was followed by violent dictators to this
day; the democratically elected Allende government of Chile which
promised health, education, social and economic justice which was
replaced by a reign of terror and military dictatorship under
General Pinochet now sought by Spain and other nations for human
rights violations; popularly elected leaders in Vietnam, Pakistan,
the Philippines, Panama, Haiti and elsewhere were replaced by U.S.
surrogates. The U.S. has opposed, assaulted and blockaded Cuba and
all its people for forty years. The U.N. General Assembly voted 155
to 2 to condemn the U.S. for its blockade of Cuba in December 1998.
The U.S. has maintained repressive governments on five continents in
too many countries to name; all seeking to destroy the cultures that
define the people, their history, character, values, arts,
literature, music, with commercially exploitive products having no
substantive worth and one overriding purpose B profits from the
poor. A goal of U.S. policy is to entrench the belief that only one
system works, capitalism, that only one culture has value, that of
the U.S. and western European, and that history will end with the
globalization of U.S. culture. UDHR; ICCPR; ICESCR.
18. The Purpose of the U.S. Being To Dominate, Control and Exploit
Yugoslavia, Its People and Its resources.
The long term purpose of all the acts complained of is to dominate,
control and exploit the poor nations of the world and the poor
people of the U.S. and other rich countries to further enrich and
empower concentrations of wealth and neutralize the whole population
of poor, overwhelmingly darker skinned people with fear,
powerlessness, poverty, bread and circus.
19. The Means of the U.S. Being Military Power and Economic
Coercion.
The United States with a near monopoly on nuclear weapons, military
aircraft, missiles, advanced armored vehicles, firepower, equipment,
and highly sophisticated technology continuously expands its
physical power to destroy, expending more on its military power than
the rest of the UN Security Council combined. This year U.S.
military expenditures will be near 300 billion dollars. The
demonized Peoples Republic of China will spend 34 billion dollars,
acquiring far less in destructive power for each dollar. The U.S.
sells more destructive arms to other governments and groups seeking
to overthrow governments than the rest of the arms selling countries
combined. Often the intention is that they kill each other, a
preferred means of achieving domination. The U.S. does not sell arms
it cannot destroy without incurring significant casualties. The U.S.
uses its enormous economic power to coerce foreign governments to
comply with its wishes, without regard to the interests of the
people of those foreign countries. The threat of economic sanctions
alone coerces countries to meet U.S. demands contrary to their
sovereignty and self interest.
ReliefSought
1. Freedom for all Balkan peoples to form a federation of their
choice to provide political, civil, social, economic and cultural
independence and viability for all the peoples of the region.
2. Comprehensive efforts to create mutual respect, common interests
and bonds of friendship among and between Muslims, Slavs and all
national, ethnic and religious groups in the Balkans.
3. Strict prohibition on all forms of foreign interference with or
disruption of efforts to establish unity, peace and stability in the
Balkans.
4. Restoration of peace making functions of the U.N. and reform of
the UN to make it effective.
5. The abolition of NATO.
6. Full accountability by individuals and governments for criminal
and other wrongful military assaults and economic injustice,
including sanctions inflicted on all the people of Yugoslavia, their
lives, resources, properties and environment to include criminal
prosecutions an reparations sufficient to place all the population
in the condition it would be in had it not suffered the wrongs
inflicted on it, together with resources with which to build a
better future of the peoples choice.
7. Abolition Of the illegal ad hoc international criminal tribunal
for Yugoslavia and reliance on a legal international tribunal of
worldwide non discriminatory jurisdiction capable of equal justice
under the law.
8. Providing adequate media access to inform the world of the human
destructiveness of the use of high technology weapons by the U.S.
against poor and defenseless people and the practice of genocide by
sanctions.
9. Removing all foreign troops from the Balkans at the earliest
feasible moment and U.S. troops from NATO countries and elsewhere
immediately.
A broader range of relief and reform may be found in Chapter 12 of
The Fire This Time. It is drawn from the experiences and
recommendations of the Commission of Inquiry and the International
War Crimes Tribunal which heard evidence in 20 countries concerning
the assault on Iraq in 1991, the continuing assaults on Iraq
thereafter and the genocidal sanctions which continue to this day.
Scope of the Inquiry
The Commission of Inquiry will focus on U.S. criminal conduct, aided
and abetted by NATO, because of the dominant U.S. role in the
military and other wrongful acts against Yugoslavia, without its
incurring a single casualty while causing thousands of deaths in
Yugoslavia, the peril of continuing U.S. conduct to all the people
of Yugoslavia and the risk of aerial and missile strikes against
other nations in view of the recidivist record of the U.S. The
Commission of Inquiry will seek and accept evidence of criminal acts
by any person or government, related to the conflict, because it
believes international law must be applied uniformly. It believes
that a "victors’ justice" is not law, but the extension of war
by force of the prevailing party. U.S. propaganda and international
media coverage has demonized Yugoslavia, its leadership, Serbs and
Muslims to fit its purposes, but rarely noticed the criminal
destruction of Yugoslavia by U.S. acts as set forth in this
complaint. Comprehensive efforts to gather and evaluate evidence,
objectively judge all the conduct that constitutes crimes against
peace, war crimes and crimes against humanity and to present these
facts for judgment to the court of world opinion requires that any
serious fair effort focus on the United States. The Commission of
Inquiry believes its focus on U.S. criminal acts is important,
proper, and the only way to bring the whole truth, a balanced
perspective and impartiality in application of legal process to this
great human tragedy.
Ramsey Clark
July 30, 1999
International Action Center
39 West 14th Street, Room 206
New York, NY 10011
email: [2]iace...@iacenter.org
[3]http://www.iacenter.org
phone: 212 633-6646
fax: 212 633-2889
Yuri Kuchinsky
:
: Yuri Kuchinsky <yu...@mail.trends.ca> wrote in message
: news:7ohnqt$2gov$3...@hub.org...
: > Jay J (jj...@globalnet.co.uk) wrote:
: >
: wanted to be and the
: > : Serbs where they did not want to be ;-)
: > And you just love when people die, don't you?
:
Sure, I remember Sarajevo. This is the place where Serbs were ethnically
cleansed from. And where Bosnian Muslims kept murdering their own
people.
How the Bosnian Muslims murdered their own people in well-staged
attacks for PR reasons.
SOME OF THE FALSE MYTHS PERPETRATED BY THE WESTERN MEDIA:
-- "SNIPER ALLEY".
"French peacekeeping troops in the United Nations unit trying to curtail
Bosnian Serb snipers' attacks on civilians in Sarajevo have concluded
that until mid-June some gunfire also came from Government soldiers
deliberately shooting at their own civilians. After what it called a
'definitive' investigation, a French marine unit that patrols against
snipers said it traced sniper fire to a building normally occupied by
Bosnian [i.e., Muslim] soldiers and other security forces. A senior
French officer said, 'We find it almost impossible to believe, but we
are sure it is true." ("Investigation Concludes Bosnian Government
Snipers Shot at Civilians," New York Times, August 1, 1995).
-- FABRICATED MASSACRES.
Since the beginning of the Bosnian war in the spring of 1992, there have
been persistent reports -- readily found in the European media but
little reported in the United States -- that civilian deaths in
Muslim-held Sarajevo attributed to the Bosnian Serb Army were in some
cases actually inflicted by the Izetbegovic regime (obviously in
co-operation with US govt operatives).
- May 27, 1992. The Sarajevo Breadline Massacre.
"MUSLIMS 'SLAUGHTER THEIR OWN PEOPLE,' -- Bosnia breadline queue
massacre was propaganda ploy, UN told," (The Independent [London] 22
August 1992). This was also reported in the Toronto Star on 23 August
1992. Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie, first UNPROFOR Commander
writes in his book, "Peacekeeper, the Road to Sarajevo" (unavailable in
the United States),
"Our people tell us there were a number of things that didn't fit. The
street had been blocked off just before the incident. Once the crowd was
let in and lined up, the media appeared but kept their distance. The
attack took place, and the media were immediately on the scene. The
majority of the victims were alleged to be 'tame Serbs.'
- February 5, 1994 - The Sarajevo Marketplace Massacre.
See, _The Times_ (London), February 19, 1994.
Deutsch Press-Agentur reported that "for the first time, a senior UN
official has admitted the existence of a secret UN report that blames
the Bosnian Moslems for the February 1994 massacre of Moslems at the
Sarajevo market."
- August 28 1995. The Sarajevo Marketplace Massacre No. 2 (Markale).
"SERBS 'NOT GUILTY' OF MASSACRE, Experts warned US that mortar was
Bosnian," (The Sunday Times [London] 1 October 1995). Wasn't it strange
that the attack gave the Clinton administation just the excuse it needed
to demand that NATO bomb the Serbs? And it wasn't a coincidence that
Peter Jennings and Christiane Amanpour had arrived in Sarajevo just in
time to witness the mortar attack. Yet based on this deceit, NATO
planes, led primarily by American pilots, dropped over 6,000 tons of
bombs on the Serbs.
- April 1996: "Le Monde," Paris: "French Journalist, Bernard Volker, who
claimed two years ago that Muslims were responsible for the incident at
Markale market in Sarajevo has won his case in Paris and thus proved the
truthfulness of his report."
- Further proof that Muslims committed the Markale Massacre: Jean
Daniel, Editor of the magazine 'Le Nouvel Observateur,' in the August
31, 1995 issue under the revealing title, 'No more lies about Bosnia,'
made an unprecedented confession: that the Prime Minister of France at
the time of the market massacre, as well as many other ministers and two
French generals, had confirmed to him that Muslims were the true authors
of that carnage. The following statement is self explanatory:
" 'They (the Muslims) have committed this carnage on their own people?'
I exclaimed in consternation. 'Yes,' confirmed the Prime Minister
[Eduard Balledur] without hesitation, 'but at least they forced NATO to
intervene.' "
--
"We have seen our country launch a war, first by futile ultimatum, then by
a slovenly planned war that from the beginning brought more suffering to
Kosovars and Serbian civilians than to Milosevic and his troops. Far too
many Americans wrote and talked of Serbs, our allies in battles we should
remember, as if they were bugs." -- A.M. ROSENTHAL in NEW YORK TIMES (June
8-11, 1999)
A balanced overview of recent Yugoslav history,
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/grattan_healy/johnston.htm
Tony W. Frye
You submit absolutely no evidence to "prove" that Bosnian Muslims bombed these
marketplaces (such as showing us the Bosnian Muslim soldiers who committed
these acts or submitting something resembling actual evidence which shows that
these shells were definitely fired by them), but is just revisionist reporting
with slogans befitting the front pages of a publication from the Institute for
Historical Review. Your methodology of factual verification perfectly mirrors
the Holocaust hoaxers who "prove" that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz
by quoting "expert" articles written by non-experts like David Irving, or old
German Nazis with a vested interest in perpetuating their point of view. And
what's the "proof"? Well, half-truths like maybe one of the shells could've
come from the direction of the Bosnian Muslims, or maybe one of the shells was
commonly used by those Bosnian Muslims (Serbs too, but their beyond reproach
and would never hurt a soul) or, better yet, because a Chetnik Serb said so.
The reasoning for this is quite clear. It's to racially rationalize the
conduct of the favored ethnic group of the racial apologist. You're not the
first one I've run into, either. I've actually met other Serbs who swear that
the slaughter of Srebrenica never took place, but was really perpetrated by
Islamic fundamentalists. It's tough for me as an anti-war person to have any
respect this type of pap. Once people become that ethnically deluded, the
first casualty is truth. It's tough to tell who's worse. The NATO folk
swearing up and down all of their slaughters are accidents, or the
ethno-propagandists proclaiming the self-inflicted suicide inclinations of all
their enemies, who somehow live to rape, bomb, and kill themselves. Your
mindset is no different from Ferg's (what with all of these supposed
"characteristics" of Bosnian Muslims and Serbs). The only different is that
he's open enough to call himself for what he is.
WWS
>
> Following is the text of the indictment prepared by me.
>
> THE INDICTMENT
>
> Submitted to the Internet
>
> by Me, Myself, and I
> August 10, 1999
>
>
> Complaint
>
> Charging Yuri Kuchinsky, With Internet Crimes And Violations Of
> Internet And Domestic Laws Against Wasting Bandwidth To The Great
Annoyance of Many and Of Being a General NetKook But Not Even a Very
Funny One Because he's not Smart Enough to Come up With Anything That
Is Original which might even be Causing Deaths, Destruction, Injury
> And Suffering.
>
>
>
> The Charges
>
> (1)Planning and Executing the Dismemberment, Segregation and
>
> (2)Inflicting, Inciting and Enhancing Violence Between and Among
>
> (3)Disrupting Efforts to Maintain Unity, Peace and Stability in
>
> (4)Destroying the Peace Making Role of the Internet.
>
> (5)Using soc.culture.europe for Military Aggression Against, and
Occupation of, Non Compliant Poor Newsgroups.
>
> (6)Aggravating and Injuring a Defenseless Population Throughout
> Cyberspace.
>
> (7)Planning, Announcing and Executing Attacks Intended to
>
> (8)Destroying and Damaging Economic, Social, Cultural. Medical,
> Diplomatic and Religious Resources, Properties and Facilities
>
> (9)Attacking Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the Population
>
> (10)Waging War on the Internet.
>
> Complaint
>
> This Complaint Is Presented To End The Scourge of NetKooks, Prevent
> Future Violations of Fundamental Human Rights, Protect International
> and National Organizations, Governments and Institutions and To Hold
> Those Convicted of the Violations Alleged Accountable for Their
> Acts.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
Yuri Kuchinsky
Then you're obviously blind, and should ask someone to read my post
aloud for you.
Here's a hint: I'm using various prestige Western media sources to back
up my claims.
: (such as showing us the Bosnian Muslim soldiers who committed : these
acts or submitting something resembling actual evidence which shows that
: these shells were definitely fired by them), but is just revisionist
reporting : with slogans befitting the front pages of a publication from
the Institute for : Historical Review.
This is a cheap smear. You're a pathetic demagogue.
: Your methodology of factual verification perfectly mirrors : the
Holocaust hoaxers who "prove" that there were no gas chambers at
Auschwitz : by quoting "expert" articles written by non-experts like
David Irving, or old : German Nazis with a vested interest in
perpetuating their point of view.
You lie like a true revisionist.
: And : what's the "proof"? Well, half-truths like maybe one of the
shells could've : come from the direction of the Bosnian Muslims, or
maybe one of the shells was : commonly used by those Bosnian Muslims
(Serbs too, but their beyond reproach : and would never hurt a soul) or,
better yet, because a Chetnik Serb said so. : The reasoning for this is
quite clear. It's to racially rationalize the : conduct of the favored
ethnic group of the racial apologist.
I'm a peace activist, and I resent these cheap smears.
: You're not the : first one I've run into, either. I've actually met
other Serbs
No, idiot, I'm not a Serb.
: who swear that : the slaughter of Srebrenica never took place, but was
really perpetrated by : Islamic fundamentalists.
That's a separate subject that you're also clued out about.
: It's tough for me as an anti-war person to have any : respect this
type of pap.
Actually I thinkk you're just a moron who's masquerading as "an anti-war
person".
: Once people become that ethnically deluded, the : first casualty is
truth. It's tough to tell who's worse. The NATO folk : swearing up and
down all of their slaughters are accidents, or the : ethno-propagandists
proclaiming the self-inflicted suicide inclinations of all : their
enemies, who somehow live to rape, bomb, and kill themselves. Your :
mindset is no different from Ferg's (what with all of these supposed :
"characteristics" of Bosnian Muslims and Serbs). The only different is
that : he's open enough to call himself for what he is. : :
Obviously you're addicted to the war propaganda emanating from the State
Department.
If you have any problems with the evidence I've provided, deal with it.
Put up or shut up.
Regards,
Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
A vacuum is a hell of a lot better than some of the stuff
that nature replaces it with -=O=- Tennessee Williams
Tony W. Frye
Ha, prestigious Western media. There is no prestigious Western media. It's on
the dole for Ted Turner and Rupert Murdoch. Didn't you learn this from watching
CNN during the Gulf War and the Balkans Wars?
> : (such as showing us the Bosnian Muslim soldiers who committed : these
> acts or submitting something resembling actual evidence which shows that
> : these shells were definitely fired by them), but is just revisionist
> reporting : with slogans befitting the front pages of a publication from
> the Institute for : Historical Review.
>
> This is a cheap smear. You're a pathetic demagogue.
Really. Here's a quote from one of your pasted headlines. "MUSLIMS 'SLAUGHTER
THEIR OWN PEOPLE,' -- Bosnia breadline queue massacre was propaganda ploy, UN
told." What was the factual source of this? The opinion of General MacKenzie,
who even today admits he doesn't know for certain who bombed the market places
(just read his recent interview for the anti-war Canadian magazine _Peace_
several months ago). You extrapolated this headline to pimp the notion that
they killed themselves from an opinion. That's dishonest.
> : Your methodology of factual verification perfectly mirrors : the
> Holocaust hoaxers who "prove" that there were no gas chambers at
> Auschwitz : by quoting "expert" articles written by non-experts like
> David Irving, or old : German Nazis with a vested interest in
> perpetuating their point of view.
>
> You lie like a true revisionist.
No revisionism, just expose things as they truly are, without the b.s. heroic
portrayals, or ethnic and ideological mirages, and dishonest verification
techniques of factual claims that rest on another's opinion.
> : And : what's the "proof"? Well, half-truths like maybe one of the
> shells could've : come from the direction of the Bosnian Muslims, or
> maybe one of the shells was : commonly used by those Bosnian Muslims
> (Serbs too, but their beyond reproach : and would never hurt a soul) or,
> better yet, because a Chetnik Serb said so. : The reasoning for this is
> quite clear. It's to racially rationalize the : conduct of the favored
> ethnic group of the racial apologist.
>
> I'm a peace activist, and I resent these cheap smears.
"Cheap smears." Excuse me, but you are quoting as a fact that they bombed
themselves when your sources don't prove this at all. It's opinion.
If this is the state of the anti-war movement, it's easy to see why we've become
so insignificant. It's not a peace movement at all. Instead, it's a bunch of
ethnic apologists whose only regret is that their side didn't win. The "peace"
stance is just a phony convenience (like those communists after the Nazi-Soviet
Non-Aggression Pact and before the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union). If I had
a dime for every "anti-war" racist (particularly in the U.S.) who compared
breeding Albanian jack-rabbits to over-reproducing Latinos in California, I'd be
a rich man. I want nothing of it. Let the nationalists rot, along with their
national flags (starting with mine).
> : You're not the : first one I've run into, either. I've actually met
> other Serbs
>
> No, idiot, I'm not a Serb.
I'm not saying you're a Serb, oh peaceful-talking pseudo pacifist. I said I met
other Serbs, not you, non-peacenik.
> : who swear that : the slaughter of Srebrenica never took place, but was
> really perpetrated by : Islamic fundamentalists.
>
> That's a separate subject that you're also clued out about.
Not at all. It's part and parcel of the dishonesty of the ethnic lobbies in
attempting to mind-twist everyone about how pristine they are, and how non-human
their enemies are (and this with "evidence" based on opinion). This reminds me
of how in one of these NGs a couple of months ago I was lambasting Operating
Storm (the Croatian invasion and ethnic cleansing of the Krajina back in '95),
and there was a Croat-apologist calling me a Nazi for being critical of Tudjman
because he had fought with the Partisans during WWII. That's how utterly
brainwashed the ethnic groups in this region are, and it will probably take
another generation or two (long after the ethno-propagandists die from their
hatreds) before people in this part of the world can live together again. I
look at all of this as the same. I have absolutely no room or respect for it,
for it's this type of thinking that has helped stoke so many of the animosities
of the Balkans on all sides.
> : It's tough for me as an anti-war person to have any : respect this
> type of pap.
>
> Actually I thinkk you're just a moron who's masquerading as "an anti-war
> person".
Read my previous posts in these NGs criticizing NATO's war. I'm a peacenik who
not only opposed NATO's bombings, but even helped demonstrate and crash
Albright-Cohen-Berger's pro-war rally on CNN back in February of '98 when they
made the deadly mistake of coming to Ohio State University campus to drum up
support for bombing Iraq. However, the difference between me and the Balkan
ethnic lobbies is that I have no fantasies about the behavior of the ethnic
groups in this region, and the amount of self-victimization the groups have
whipped themselves into is a disgrace. Every one of them do this. Kill each
other and accuse the other side of starting it or doing it to themselves. The
more I look at it, the more it convinces me the groups in this region have
learned absolutely nothing from the lessons of history, not the least any of the
ideas of human rights or pluralism. Show me a difference between a Serb
policeman in Kosovo three months ago or a KLA guerilla. There isn't one.
> : Once people become that ethnically deluded, the : first casualty is
> truth. It's tough to tell who's worse. The NATO folk : swearing up and
> down all of their slaughters are accidents, or the : ethno-propagandists
> proclaiming the self-inflicted suicide inclinations of all : their
> enemies, who somehow live to rape, bomb, and kill themselves. Your :
> mindset is no different from Ferg's (what with all of these supposed :
> "characteristics" of Bosnian Muslims and Serbs). The only different is
> that : he's open enough to call himself for what he is. : :
>
> Obviously you're addicted to the war propaganda emanating from the State
> Department.
Not at all. As a matter of anti-war principle, I opposed the NATO war on
Yugoslavia. Out of that same anti-war principle, so too would I have opposed my
country's entrance in the two world wars, but you wouldn't have seen me doing
public readings from the Nibelungenlied, either. Moreover, from the evidentiary
admittance of the people who committed many of these crimes in public for all to
see, I also have no illusions about the conduct of the Serbs over the past 10
years in the Balkans (along with the Croats and Bosnians). It's difficult to
see the difference between the policies of Milosevic and Tudjman. If you can't
look at these things honestly (and try to pass opinion off as fact), that's your
problem.
> If you have any problems with the evidence I've provided, deal with it.
I not only dealed with it, I actually listed it. The evidence is non-existent.
You claim they bombed themselves. What's the evidence? Accusations by sources
based on opinion and possibility (a mortar that both sides have access to). No
physical evidence that the Bosnian Muslims committed any of these market
massacres (although it's entirely possible considering the Crusades-like
ethnic-religious atmosphere among some of the inhabitants there). When you make
a claim of certainty, you have to back it up. Having a Canadian general saying
that he thinks the other side might have done it doesn't cut it.
> Put up or shut up.
Likewise. Show me the evidence that they bombed their own people, instead of
someone's opinion hidden by a mere headline. If you tried this in debate class,
or a thesis, you would be thrown out in 5 minutes.
Bilbo
WWS wrote:
> >
> > Following is the text of the indictment prepared by me.
> >
> > THE INDICTMENT
> >
> > Submitted to the Internet
> >
> > by Me, Myself, and I
> > August 10, 1999
> >
> >
> > Complaint
> >
> > Charging Yuri Kuchinsky, With Internet Crimes And Violations Of
> > Internet And Domestic Laws Against Wasting Bandwidth To The Great
> Annoyance of Many and Of Being a General NetKook But Not Even a Very
> Funny One Because he's not Smart Enough to Come up With Anything That
> Is Original which might even be Causing Deaths, Destruction, Injury
> > And Suffering.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Charges
> >
> > (1)Planning and Executing the Dismemberment, Segregation and
> > Impoverishment of Newsgroups.
> >
> > (2)Inflicting, Inciting and Enhancing Violence Between and Among
> > Innocent Internet Posters.
> >
> > (3)Disrupting Efforts to Maintain Unity, Peace and Stability in
> > the alt.* and soc.* heirarchies.
> >
> > (4)Destroying the Peace Making Role of the Internet.
> >
> > (5)Using soc.culture.europe for Military Aggression Against, and
> Occupation of, Non Compliant Poor Newsgroups.
> >
> > (6)Aggravating and Injuring a Defenseless Population Throughout
> > Cyberspace.
> >
> > (7)Planning, Announcing and Executing Attacks Intended to
> > Bore a Great Deal of People in the Worst Possible Way.
> >
> > (8)Destroying and Damaging Economic, Social, Cultural. Medical,
> > Diplomatic and Religious Resources, Properties and Facilities
> > Throughout Cyberspace.
> >
> > (9)Attacking Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the Population
> > of Cyberspace.
> >
> > (10)Waging War on the Internet.
> >
> > Complaint
> >
> > This Complaint Is Presented To End The Scourge of NetKooks, Prevent
> > Future Violations of Fundamental Human Rights, Protect International
> > and National Organizations, Governments and Institutions and To Hold
> > Those Convicted of the Violations Alleged Accountable for Their
> > Acts.
>
> --
>
> __________________________________________________WWS_____________
--
bilbo
--
it ain't over 'til the fat man swings: | Mocking campaign continues
http://www.bunyip.demon.co.uk/hang.htm | - Slobba, Govno, Arkan,
* Hang the War Criminal * | You're all targets now!!
Jay J
Bilbo <bi...@bunyip.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:37AF7D40...@bunyip.demon.co.uk...
> I second that :) Excellent
>
> WWS wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Following is the text of the indictment prepared by me.
> > >
> > > THE INDICTMENT
> > >
> > > Submitted to the Internet
> > >
> > > by Me, Myself, and I
> > > August 10, 1999
> > >
> > >
> > > Complaint
> > >
> > > Charging Yuri Kuchinsky, With Internet Crimes And Violations Of
> > > Internet And Domestic Laws Against Wasting Bandwidth To The Great
> > Annoyance of Many and Of Being a General NetKook But Not Even a
Very
> > Funny One Because he's not Smart Enough to Come up With Anything
That
> > Is Original which might even be Causing Deaths, Destruction, Injury
> > > And Suffering.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The Charges
> > >
> > > (1)Planning and Executing the Dismemberment, Segregation and
> > > Impoverishment of Newsgroups.
> > >
> > > (2)Inflicting, Inciting and Enhancing Violence Between and Among
> > > Innocent Internet Posters.
> > >
> > > (3)Disrupting Efforts to Maintain Unity, Peace and Stability in
> > > the alt.* and soc.* heirarchies.
> > >
> > > (4)Destroying the Peace Making Role of the Internet.
> > >
> > > (5)Using soc.culture.europe for Military Aggression Against, and
> > Occupation of, Non Compliant Poor Newsgroups.
> > >
> > > (6)Aggravating and Injuring a Defenseless Population Throughout
> > > Cyberspace.
> > >
> > > (7)Planning, Announcing and Executing Attacks Intended to
> > > Bore a Great Deal of People in the Worst Possible Way.
> > >
> > > (8)Destroying and Damaging Economic, Social, Cultural. Medical,
> > > Diplomatic and Religious Resources, Properties and Facilities
> > > Throughout Cyberspace.
> > >
> > > (9)Attacking Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the
Population
> > > of Cyberspace.
> > >
> > > (10)Waging War on the Internet.
> > >
> > > Complaint
> > >
> > > This Complaint Is Presented To End The Scourge of NetKooks, Prevent
> > > Future Violations of Fundamental Human Rights, Protect
International
> > > and National Organizations, Governments and Institutions and To
Hold
> > > Those Convicted of the Violations Alleged Accountable for Their
> > > Acts.
> >
Jeez Us Christ
hand cross if anyones interested<g>
Jay J <jj...@globalnet.co.uk> wrote
> Motion carried then :-)
>
> Bilbo <bi...@bunyip.demon.co.uk> wrote in
> > I second that :) Excellent
> >
> > WWS wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > > Following is the text of the indictment prepared by me.
> > > >
> > > > THE INDICTMENT
> > > >
> > > > Submitted to the Internet
> > > >
> > > > by Me, Myself, and I
> > > > August 10, 1999
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Complaint
> > > >
> > > > Charging Yuri Kuchinsky, With Internet Crimes And Violations Of
> > > > Internet And Domestic Laws Against Wasting Bandwidth To The Great
> > > Annoyance of Many and Of Being a General NetKook But Not Even a
> Very
> > > Funny One Because he's not Smart Enough to Come up With Anything
> That
> > > Is Original which might even be Causing Deaths, Destruction,
Injury
> > > > And Suffering.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Charges
> > > >
> > > > (1)Planning and Executing the Dismemberment, Segregation and
> > > > Impoverishment of Newsgroups.
> > > >
> > > > (2)Inflicting, Inciting and Enhancing Violence Between and Among
> > > > Innocent Internet Posters.
> > > >
> > > > (3)Disrupting Efforts to Maintain Unity, Peace and Stability in
> > > > the alt.* and soc.* heirarchies.
> > > >
> > > > (4)Destroying the Peace Making Role of the Internet.
> > > >
> > > > (5)Using soc.culture.europe for Military Aggression Against, and
> > > Occupation of, Non Compliant Poor Newsgroups.
> > > >
> > > > (6)Aggravating and Injuring a Defenseless Population Throughout
> > > > Cyberspace.
> > > >
> > > > (7)Planning, Announcing and Executing Attacks Intended to
> > > > Bore a Great Deal of People in the Worst Possible Way.
> > > >
> > > > (8)Destroying and Damaging Economic, Social, Cultural. Medical,
> > > > Diplomatic and Religious Resources, Properties and Facilities
> > > > Throughout Cyberspace.
> > > >
> > > > (9)Attacking Objects Indispensable to the Survival of the
> Population
> > > > of Cyberspace.
> > > >
> > > > (10)Waging War on the Internet.
> > > >
> > > > Complaint
> > > >
> > > > This Complaint Is Presented To End The Scourge of NetKooks,
Prevent
> > > > Future Violations of Fundamental Human Rights, Protect
> International
> > > > and National Organizations, Governments and Institutions and To
> Hold
> > > > Those Convicted of the Violations Alleged Accountable for Their
> > > > Acts.
> > >
Jay J
Tony W. Frye <sa...@infinet.com> wrote in message
news:37AF7733...@infinet.com...
Tony , that was THE most servere savaging I have seen in this ng for some
time, hell Nato should have just sent you and some of your collueges out to
Kosovo, job done 2 days max and no loss of life, kudos to you :-))
JayJ
P.S. do you have a web site ?
hector
who let you out?
i thought the Albanian kla had got you as their main propagandist.
genocide where is that word now?
we have genocide, your definition, in kosovo now.
why aren't you out on the streets protesting about the humanitarian crisis.
oooops sorry forgot.
the Serbs aren't human beings like what the Albanians are?
Bilbo wrote in message <37AF7D40...@bunyip.demon.co.uk>...
:I second that :) Excellent
:
:WWS wrote:
:
:> >Bilbo Braggins to be indicted for Shit Stirring, old brown arms is
forgetting that the UN is digging all over kosovo in the country of Serbia
looking for atrocities, funny how there is a dearth of news reports on this
from the free press.
whats the matter bigarseo no news?
Tony W. Frye
>
> > I've actually met other Serbs who swear that
> > the slaughter of Srebrenica never took place, but was
> really perpetrated by
> > Islamic fundamentalists. It's tough for me as an anti-war
> person to have any
> > respect this type of pap. Once people become that
> ethnically deluded, the
> > first casualty is truth. It's tough to tell who's worse.
> The NATO folk
> > swearing up and down all of their slaughters are
> accidents, or the
> > ethno-propagandists proclaiming the self-inflicted suicide
> inclinations of all
> > their enemies, who somehow live to rape, bomb, and kill
> themselves. Your
> > mindset is no different from Ferg's (what with all of
> these supposed
> > "characteristics" of Bosnian Muslims and Serbs). The only
> different is that
> > he's open enough to call himself for what he is.
>
>
> Until these dogs can prove their membership of the human
> race, I will remain anti-Serb, anti-Russian, and
> anti-communist.
>
> We all know about subjectivity, it is what we all required
> to defeat the Nazis in WW2.
Sure, and to do this you had to ally yourselves with the same people you
racially despise, Russians and Serbs. That's rather utilitarian of
you. Of course, you're probably one of those situational racists who
could in one war declare Germans no good Huns out to kill everyone, and
in the next extoll the brave Bundeswehr for their work in Kosovo.
> Obviously, Goebbells kept the Germans amused with propaganda
> which "proved" the Nazis were the good guys, and in many
> cases they may have used genuine information to support
> their untenable thesis.
>
> Regardless, we know subjectively that the Nazis were
> arseholes and we compromised our own inherent respect for
> Good and Right by using any means possible to defeat the
> evil Nazi regime.
>
> The same goes for the commies and the current Serb
> dickheads.
>
> Sure, depleted uranium shells are nasty, but torturing
> innocent women and children is nastier.
> Sure, cutting the power and water is mean, but chasing an
> entire population from their land is meaner.
>
> The fact is, if you cannot see that the war against Serbia,
> itself a result of the 4 wars started by Serbia, was a war
> of Good (however flawed) versus Evil, then you are part of
> the problem.
There was no good vs. evil as you say it in the Balkans. Those same
Serbs were also ethnically cleansed from Croatia. Those same Albanians
are also partaking in reprisal killings in Kosovo. That's war. This
ignorant notion that an entire race is evil, or somehow inclined to
communism (as if the gnome can fathom that) and deserves death is the
same type of thinking that led Hitler to Operation Barbarossa. No one,
absolutely no people have an inside track on evil. The English, I'm
sure the Irish have their complaints (along with the Indians). The
Americans (assuming one could even call us a race), the Vietnamese and
African slaves have dibs on us. The Australians, another history filled
with white-invading butchers of indigenous peoples. The Germans, well,
let's face it, they aren't exactly history's victims. Name me a people,
and I will show you a history filled with murder and rape because that's
the human experience, comprised for however long a period of arrogant
leaders and obedient masses who thought that they had the right to rule
over others. To be sure, there's no excuse for this behavior
(explaining my clash with Yuri), but neither is such conduct inevitable
or delineated by race. Killing and oppressing people is a human
problem, and you aren't going to stop it by taking issue with the race
of the situational killers in that instance, least anyone hold the
mirror up to your cultural background and damn you for any past or
present conduct committed by those within your group.
Ferg
> I've actually met other Serbs who swear that
> the slaughter of Srebrenica never took place, but was
really perpetrated by
> Islamic fundamentalists. It's tough for me as an anti-war
person to have any
> respect this type of pap. Once people become that
ethnically deluded, the
> first casualty is truth. It's tough to tell who's worse.
The NATO folk
> swearing up and down all of their slaughters are
accidents, or the
> ethno-propagandists proclaiming the self-inflicted suicide
inclinations of all
> their enemies, who somehow live to rape, bomb, and kill
themselves. Your
> mindset is no different from Ferg's (what with all of
these supposed
> "characteristics" of Bosnian Muslims and Serbs). The only
different is that
> he's open enough to call himself for what he is.
That's right.
Until these dogs can prove their membership of the human
race, I will remain anti-Serb, anti-Russian, and
anti-communist.
We all know about subjectivity, it is what we all required
to defeat the Nazis in WW2.
Obviously, Goebbells kept the Germans amused with propaganda
Yuri Kuchinsky
: > Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
: > : > - May 27, 1992. The Sarajevo Breadline Massacre.
: > : >
: > : > "MUSLIMS 'SLAUGHTER THEIR OWN PEOPLE,' -- Bosnia breadline queue
: > : > massacre was propaganda ploy, UN told," (The Independent [London] 22
: > : > August 1992). This was also reported in the Toronto Star on 23 August
: > : > 1992. Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie, first UNPROFOR Commander
: > : > writes in his book, "Peacekeeper, the Road to Sarajevo" (unavailable in
: > : > the United States),
: > : >
: > : > "Our people tell us there were a number of things that didn't fit. The
: > : > street had been blocked off just before the incident. Once the crowd was
: > : > let in and lined up, the media appeared but kept their distance. The
: > : > attack took place, and the media were immediately on the scene. The
: > : > majority of the victims were alleged to be 'tame Serbs.'
: > Then you're obviously blind, and should ask someone to read my post
: > aloud for you.
: >
: > Here's a hint: I'm using various prestige Western media sources to back
: > up my claims.
: Ha, prestigious Western media.
Learn to read. I said "prestige". There's a difference, you know?
: There is no prestigious Western media. It's on : the dole for Ted
Turner and Rupert Murdoch. Didn't you learn this from watching : CNN
during the Gulf War and the Balkans Wars?
So what kind of evidence do you want me to cite then?
You're just a cheap demagogue. You're just pretending to be
anti-establishment.
: Really. Here's a quote from one of your pasted headlines. "MUSLIMS
'SLAUGHTER : THEIR OWN PEOPLE,' -- Bosnia breadline queue massacre was
propaganda ploy, UN : told." What was the factual source of this?
Are you ever dumb... The Independent [London] 22 August 1992. This was
also reported in the Toronto Star on 23 August 1992.
: The opinion of General MacKenzie,
Get a clue. See above. LOTS OF PEOPLE expressed the same opinions...
: who even today admits he doesn't know for certain who bombed the
market places : (just read his recent interview for the anti-war
Canadian magazine _Peace_ : several months ago).
So? Perhaps he doesn't know who did it, but he knows that the Serbs
didn't do it?
: You extrapolated this headline
No, idiot, I extrapolated from no headline.
: to pimp the notion that : they killed themselves from an opinion.
That's dishonest.
You're too stupid, and you can't read.
: > I'm a peace activist, and I resent these cheap smears.
: "Cheap smears." Excuse me, but you are quoting as a fact that they
bombed : themselves when your sources don't prove this at all. It's
opinion.
Get yourself a clue.
: If this is the state of the anti-war movement, it's easy to see why
we've become : so insignificant. It's not a peace movement at all.
Instead, it's a bunch of : ethnic apologists whose only regret is that
their side didn't win. The "peace" : stance is just a phony convenience
(like those communists after the Nazi-Soviet : Non-Aggression Pact and
before the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union). If I had : a dime for
every "anti-war" racist (particularly in the U.S.) who compared :
breeding Albanian jack-rabbits to over-reproducing Latinos in
California, I'd be : a rich man. I want nothing of it. Let the
nationalists rot, along with their : national flags (starting with
mine).
Your silly rant is irrelevant.
: > : You're not the : first one I've run into, either. I've actually met
: > other Serbs
: >
: > No, idiot, I'm not a Serb.
:
: I'm not saying you're a Serb, oh peaceful-talking pseudo pacifist. I said I met
: other Serbs, not you, non-peacenik.
First you've taken me for a Serb (my name doesn't sound Serb at all),
and now you're trying to cover it up. You're quite dishonest.
: > : who swear that : the slaughter of Srebrenica never took place, but was
: > really perpetrated by : Islamic fundamentalists.
: >
: > That's a separate subject that you're also clued out about.
: Not at all. It's part and parcel of the dishonesty of the ethnic
lobbies in : attempting to mind-twist everyone about how pristine they
are, and how non-human : their enemies are (and this with "evidence"
based on opinion). This reminds me : of how in one of these NGs a
couple of months ago I was lambasting Operating : Storm (the Croatian
invasion and ethnic cleansing of the Krajina back in '95), : and there
was a Croat-apologist calling me a Nazi for being critical of Tudjman :
because he had fought with the Partisans during WWII. That's how
utterly : brainwashed the ethnic groups in this region are, and it will
probably take : another generation or two (long after the
ethno-propagandists die from their : hatreds) before people in this part
of the world can live together again. I : look at all of this as the
same. I have absolutely no room or respect for it, : for it's this type
of thinking that has helped stoke so many of the animosities : of the
Balkans on all sides.
Your rant is both silly and arrogant.
You're doing the dirty work of NATO. You blame the war on the "local
ethnic hatreds", and this is exactly what KKKlinton wants you to think.
You're a brainwashed idiot.
The real butchers of the Balkans are Germany and US, but
pseudo-progressives like you are trying to shift the blame elsewhere.
: > : It's tough for me as an anti-war person to have any : respect this
: > type of pap.
: >
: > Actually I think you're just a moron who's masquerading as "an anti-war
: > person".
: Read my previous posts in these NGs criticizing NATO's war. I'm a
peacenik who : not only opposed NATO's bombings, but even helped
demonstrate and crash : Albright-Cohen-Berger's pro-war rally on CNN
back in February of '98 when they : made the deadly mistake of coming to
Ohio State University campus to drum up : support for bombing Iraq.
Perhaps your intentions are good, but you've been brainwashed.
: However, the difference between me and the Balkan : ethnic lobbies is
that I have no fantasies about the behavior of the ethnic : groups in
this region, and the amount of self-victimization the groups have :
whipped themselves into is a disgrace. Every one of them do this.
Kill each : other and accuse the other side of starting it or doing it
to themselves. The : more I look at it, the more it convinces me the
groups in this region have : learned absolutely nothing from the lessons
of history, not the least any of the : ideas of human rights or
pluralism.
Your rant is disgustingly condescending. You're blaming the victims for
the sins of the meddling outsiders.
: Show me a difference between a Serb : policeman in Kosovo three months
ago or a KLA guerilla. There isn't one.
I see... So a NATO-armed murdering terrorist is the same in your eyes as
someone defending their small country from an attack by NATO?
You're a dupe and a stooge.
It seems like you're just one of those State Department Marxists. You
dress up as a critic of American foreign policy merely to distract
attention from the real crimes of the US.
: > Obviously you're addicted to the war propaganda emanating from the State
: > Department.
: Not at all. As a matter of anti-war principle, I opposed the NATO war
on : Yugoslavia. Out of that same anti-war principle, so too would I
have opposed my : country's entrance in the two world wars, but you
wouldn't have seen me doing : public readings from the Nibelungenlied,
either. Moreover, from the evidentiary : admittance of the people who
committed many of these crimes in public for all to : see, I also have
no illusions about the conduct of the Serbs over the past 10 : years in
the Balkans (along with the Croats and Bosnians).
And neither do I, idiot. Of course some Serb extremists committed
atrocities. But I don't want Serbs to be blamed for those they did not
commit.
: It's difficult to : see the difference between the policies of
Milosevic and Tudjman.
You mean there is none?
: If you can't : look at these things honestly (and try to pass opinion
off as fact), that's your : problem.
Croatia is the most "ethnically purified" country in the Balkans, while
Serbia is the most multi-ethnic. If you don't see this as significant,
there's no hope for you...
: > If you have any problems with the evidence I've provided, deal with it.
: I not only dealed with it, I actually listed it. The evidence is
non-existent.
You're in denial.
: You claim they bombed themselves. What's the evidence?
See in my earlier post.
: Accusations by sources : based on opinion and possibility (a mortar
that both sides have access to). No : physical evidence that the
Bosnian Muslims committed any of these market : massacres
You're denying reality.
: (although it's entirely possible considering the Crusades-like :
ethnic-religious atmosphere among some of the inhabitants there). When
you make : a claim of certainty, you have to back it up. Having a
Canadian general saying : that he thinks the other side might have done
it doesn't cut it.
Demonstrating your illiteracy again?
: > Put up or shut up.
: Likewise. Show me the evidence that they bombed their own people,
See the sources listed.
: instead of : someone's opinion hidden by a mere headline. If you
tried this in debate class, : or a thesis, you would be thrown out in 5
minutes. :
Your problems are stupidity, ignorance, illiteracy, and brainwashing.
I have no intention of trying to persuade you of anything. That would be
the labour of Sysyphus considering the handicap.
If you find any problems with my evidence, get back to me. Or even
better, I suggest you stop making a fool of yourself. This discussion
seems to be a bit over your head, pal.
Meanwhile, here's a bonus for anyone interested in such subjects. This
time about admited Croatian similar "PR atrocities".
http://www.afsc.org/pwork/0599/0503.htm
//// On the Eve of War, NATO's Humanitarian Trigger
//// By Diana Johnstone
//// _Peacework / May 1999
....
In the middle of conflict as in Kosovo,
massacres can easily be perpetrated... or
"arranged." There are always television crews
looking precisely for that "top story."
Recently, Croatian officers have admitted
that in 1993 they themselves staged a "Serbian
bombing" of the Croatian coastal city of
Sibenik for the benefit of Croatian television
crews. The former Commander of the 113th
Croatian brigade headquarters, Davo Skugor,
reacted indignantly. "Why so much fuss?" he
complained. "There is no city in Croatia in
which such tactical tricks were not used.
After all, they are an integral part of
strategic planning. That's only one in a
series of stratagems we've resorted to during
the war."
Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky -=- Toronto -=- http://www.globalserve.net/~yuku
Sherry [Thomas Sheridan] is dull, naturally dull; but it must have
taken him a great deal of pains to become what we now see him. Such
an excess of stupidity, sir, is not in Nature -=O=- Samuel Johnson
Yuri Kuchinsky
: Until these dogs can prove their membership of the human
: race, I will remain anti-Serb
More racist garbage from Ferg.
These are NATzO humanitarians...
Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky -=- Toronto -=- http://www.globalserve.net/~yuku
Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life.
-- Eric Hoffer
Ferg
> Ferg (fergu...@yahoo.com) wrote:
> :
> : Yuri Kuchinsky <yu...@mail.trends.ca> wrote in message
> : news:7ohnqt$2gov$3...@hub.org...
> : >
> :
> : That seems to be a Serb Characteristic, remember
Sarajevo?
>
> Sure, I remember Sarajevo. This is the place where Serbs
were ethnically
> cleansed from. And where Bosnian Muslims kept murdering
their own
> people.
<snip> the usual pro-Serb-Nazi Belgrade crap.
Hey, Yuri!
If I saw a Serb (or a Russki) on fire in the street, I
wouldn't even piss on him.
Tony W. Frye
>Ferg (fergu...@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
>: Until these dogs can prove their membership of the human
>: race, I will remain anti-Serb
>
>More racist garbage from Ferg.
>
>These are NATzO humanitarians...
>
>Yuri.
Actually, he's just your more honest twin.
>Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life.
> -- Eric Hoffer
And this from a "peace activist"?
Tony W. Frye
>
>: > Here's a hint: I'm using various prestige Western media sources to back
>: > up my claims.
>
>: Ha, prestigious Western media.
>
>Learn to read. I said "prestige". There's a difference, you know?
No, I just corrected your grammatical error. Well, here, O literate one,
let's re-quote the disputed sentence. "Here's a hint: I'm using various
prestige Western media sources to back up my claims."
That is a grammatical error. Prestige is a noun. You need a more
qualifying and descriptive version of prestige (i.e., an adjective). The
proper adjective to prestige is prestigious, which is not a difference but a
correction.
As for the "difference" between these two words here's the Webster's
dictionary definition of the two.
Prestige--n. 1. The power to impress or influence. 2. Reputation based
on high achievement, character, etc.
Prestigious--adj. Having or imparting PRESTIGE [emphasis mine] or
distinction.
Real difference there, but then you're the one who accuses me of being
"illiterate." I suppose we know the truthfulness of that one--about the
same as your other claims of fact based on an opinion of the possibility
that one of the groups bombed their own people.
>: There is no prestigious Western media. It's on : the dole for Ted
>Turner and Rupert Murdoch. Didn't you learn this from watching : CNN
>during the Gulf War and the Balkans Wars?
>
>So what kind of evidence do you want me to cite then?
Actual evidence, not opinions of people with a vested interested in a PR
line for their side. For example, evidence that shows only Bosnian Muslims
had access to the mortars used.
>You're just a cheap demagogue. You're just pretending to be
>anti-establishment.
Really? Then let's prove it. Let's get together in a public forum,
preferably in front of a consulate, and we can burn the Serbian, Canadian,
and American flags simultaneously while mocking their anthems. I'm more
than willing to practice what I preach.
>: Really. Here's a quote from one of your pasted headlines. "MUSLIMS
>'SLAUGHTER : THEIR OWN PEOPLE,' -- Bosnia breadline queue massacre was
>propaganda ploy, UN : told." What was the factual source of this?
>
>Are you ever dumb... The Independent [London] 22 August 1992. This was
>also reported in the Toronto Star on 23 August 1992.
>
>: The opinion of General MacKenzie,
>
>Get a clue. See above. LOTS OF PEOPLE expressed the same opinions...
And lots of people also expressed the opposite opinions. And the facts?
There's no evidence, which you are now admitting. You knew from the start
there wasn't any "evidence" "proving" that the Muslims bombed their own
people (just, in your word, "opinions"). Opinions of something that might
have happened doesn't exceed the bar of evidence. In the common law court
system, at best, this is testimony, which one can choose to believe or
discount. You're a believer, for obvious reasons (as Ferg is a believer for
other side's butchers).
[insert Yuri's ranting response replete with personal insults and diatribes
minus any actual evidence to back up his claims.]
>: who even today admits he doesn't know for certain who bombed the
>market places : (just read his recent interview for the anti-war
>Canadian magazine _Peace_ : several months ago).
>
>So? Perhaps he doesn't know who did it, but he knows that the Serbs
>didn't do it?
Wrong. In that interview, MacKenzie states he doesn't know who did it,
period, on either side. He admits that it could've been either one, which
is the truth, but hardly proves that either one actually did it.
>: You extrapolated this headline
>
>No, idiot, I extrapolated from no headline.
Really. Here's the headline, "MUSLIMS 'SLAUGHTER : THEIR OWN PEOPLE,' --
Bosnia breadline queue massacre was propaganda ploy, UN : told." Now again,
the evidence? By your admittance, "opinions."
>: to pimp the notion that : they killed themselves from an opinion.
>That's dishonest.
>
>You're too stupid, and you can't read.
Sure, that's why I'm writing in complete sentences after repeating your
claims in quotes, and even correcting your grammatical errors.
>: > I'm a peace activist, and I resent these cheap smears.
>
>: "Cheap smears." Excuse me, but you are quoting as a fact that they
>bombed : themselves when your sources don't prove this at all. It's
>opinion.
>
>Get yourself a clue.
That's your problem. You have none. You made a factual claim on
non-factual, non-existing evidence.
>: If this is the state of the anti-war movement, it's easy to see why
>we've become : so insignificant. It's not a peace movement at all.
>Instead, it's a bunch of : ethnic apologists whose only regret is that
>their side didn't win. The "peace" : stance is just a phony convenience
>(like those communists after the Nazi-Soviet : Non-Aggression Pact and
>before the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union). If I had : a dime for
>every "anti-war" racist (particularly in the U.S.) who compared :
>breeding Albanian jack-rabbits to over-reproducing Latinos in
>California, I'd be : a rich man. I want nothing of it. Let the
>nationalists rot, along with their : national flags (starting with
>mine).
>
>Your silly rant is irrelevant.
Not if you live in the same country with Pat Buchanan, whose views of
Albanians perfectly mirror the views of a lot of white Californians about
Latinos.
>: > : You're not the : first one I've run into, either. I've actually met
>: > other Serbs
>: >
>: > No, idiot, I'm not a Serb.
>:
>: I'm not saying you're a Serb, oh peaceful-talking pseudo pacifist. I
said I met
>: other Serbs, not you, non-peacenik.
>
>First you've taken me for a Serb (my name doesn't sound Serb at all),
>and now you're trying to cover it up. You're quite dishonest.
Being a little conspiratorial there.
>: > : who swear that : the slaughter of Srebrenica never took place, but
was
>: > really perpetrated by : Islamic fundamentalists.
>: >
>: > That's a separate subject that you're also clued out about.
>
>: Not at all. It's part and parcel of the dishonesty of the ethnic
>lobbies in : attempting to mind-twist everyone about how pristine they
>are, and how non-human : their enemies are (and this with "evidence"
>based on opinion). This reminds me : of how in one of these NGs a
>couple of months ago I was lambasting Operating : Storm (the Croatian
>invasion and ethnic cleansing of the Krajina back in '95), : and there
>was a Croat-apologist calling me a Nazi for being critical of Tudjman :
>because he had fought with the Partisans during WWII. That's how
>utterly : brainwashed the ethnic groups in this region are, and it will
>probably take : another generation or two (long after the
>ethno-propagandists die from their : hatreds) before people in this part
>of the world can live together again. I : look at all of this as the
>same. I have absolutely no room or respect for it, : for it's this type
>of thinking that has helped stoke so many of the animosities : of the
>Balkans on all sides.
>
>Your rant is both silly and arrogant.
I doubt you took the time to read it.
>You're doing the dirty work of NATO. You blame the war on the "local
>ethnic hatreds", and this is exactly what KKKlinton wants you to think.
>You're a brainwashed idiot.
>The real butchers of the Balkans are Germany and US, but
>pseudo-progressives like you are trying to shift the blame elsewhere.
Yugoslavia was breaking up long before Germany and the U.S. got involved.
Actually, the U.S. opposed the initial breakup of Yugoslavia (what with it
being $10 billion in debt to international lenders), and even went so far as
to oppose the recognition of Croatia in December '91. It was after the
atrocities of Bosnia in 1992 that we finally got involved, and even then
taking sides, which is normally what happens with non-peaceful superpowers
with huge militaries. It has nothing to do with morality or right and
wrong, which you as a ethnic apologist should fully understand. I can
guarantee you that had we taken the stance to bomb Zagreb for what the
Croats did in the Krajina back in '95, you would've been on the front lines
cheering it. That's because you aren't a real peace activist, but an ethnic
partisan who not only refuses to face the truth, but avoids it by filling
your posts with silly ad hominems and factual claims based on "opinions."
>: > : It's tough for me as an anti-war person to have any : respect this
>: > type of pap.
>: >
>: > Actually I think you're just a moron who's masquerading as "an anti-war
>: > person".
>
>: Read my previous posts in these NGs criticizing NATO's war. I'm a
>peacenik who : not only opposed NATO's bombings, but even helped
>demonstrate and crash : Albright-Cohen-Berger's pro-war rally on CNN
>back in February of '98 when they : made the deadly mistake of coming to
>Ohio State University campus to drum up : support for bombing Iraq.
>
>Perhaps your intentions are good, but you've been brainwashed.
>
>: However, the difference between me and the Balkan : ethnic lobbies is
>that I have no fantasies about the behavior of the ethnic : groups in
>this region, and the amount of self-victimization the groups have :
>whipped themselves into is a disgrace. Every one of them do this.
>Kill each : other and accuse the other side of starting it or doing it
>to themselves. The : more I look at it, the more it convinces me the
>groups in this region have : learned absolutely nothing from the lessons
>of history, not the least any of the : ideas of human rights or
>pluralism.
>
>Your rant is disgustingly condescending. You're blaming the victims for
>the sins of the meddling outsiders.
Outsiders? Where? At Srebrenica? Now tell me, how was Germany, the U.S.,
or any foreign power responsible for that one?
>: Show me a difference between a Serb : policeman in Kosovo three months
>ago or a KLA guerilla. There isn't one.
>
>I see... So a NATO-armed murdering terrorist is the same in your eyes as
>someone defending their small country from an attack by NATO?
More than that, all armed murderers (NATO, Serb, Albanian). No difference.
Killers are killers throughout the world, and their moral ethic is the same.
You just can't accept that because you think that your killers are defending
themselves by kicking people out of their homes, burning down their
villages, shooting them and burying them in mass graves. I say those
killings are morally no different than dropping cruise missiles on cities,
oil refineries, and hospitals. I'm the only peacenik here who makes that
claim, as you think one group of killers are actually good, which is why you
can not by definition be a peacenik or peace activist anymore than Sir
Arthur Harris.
>You're a dupe and a stooge.
(snip for ad hominem content)
I'll be nice and assume you even know what that means.
>: > Obviously you're addicted to the war propaganda emanating from the
State
>: > Department.
>
>: Not at all. As a matter of anti-war principle, I opposed the NATO war
>on : Yugoslavia. Out of that same anti-war principle, so too would I
>have opposed my : country's entrance in the two world wars, but you
>wouldn't have seen me doing : public readings from the Nibelungenlied,
>either. Moreover, from the evidentiary : admittance of the people who
>committed many of these crimes in public for all to : see, I also have
>no illusions about the conduct of the Serbs over the past 10 : years in
>the Balkans (along with the Croats and Bosnians).
>
>And neither do I, idiot. Of course some Serb extremists committed
>atrocities. But I don't want Serbs to be blamed for those they did not
>commit.
Now you're contradicting yourself. Earlier in this post, you claimed, "The
real butchers of the Balkans are Germany and US...." and, "You're blaming
the victims for
the sins of the meddling outsiders." Now here you are trying to feign
concern about "Serb extremists" who you obviously don't name. Where? Not
in Kosovo (the worst act of Serb extremism in the entire Balkans wars this
past decade). You think their mass expulsions and slaughter were in defense
against NATO. This is like running into some American redneck who thinks
that our imprisonment of hundreds of thousands of Japanese Americans during
WWII was defending ourselves against Hirohito. If you can come into these
new groups and talk about Muslims killing themselves and Albanians being
kicked out by NATO, I think it's safe to say your concern about Serb
extremists is about the same as Ferg's concern for Croat extremists, zilch.
>: It's difficult to : see the difference between the policies of
>Milosevic and Tudjman.
>
>You mean there is none?
No, except ethnicity, but in principle, they're the same. They actually
allied themselves in the ethnic cleansing of the Krajina, as Milosevic made
a quick peace with Tudjman after Operation Storm, and then tried to take
those ethnically cleansed Serbs and bus them to Kosovo to remake the ethnic
composition of that state for his own political ends. That's about the same
amount of scruples exerted as when Tudjman used the acceptance of the
Muslim-Croat federation in Bosnia as a means to gain U.S. support for
Operation Storm. Such Machiavellianism is a common trait among thugs.
>: If you can't : look at these things honestly (and try to pass opinion
>off as fact), that's your : problem.
>
>Croatia is the most "ethnically purified" country in the Balkans, while
>Serbia is the most multi-ethnic. If you don't see this as significant,
>there's no hope for you...
No, Slovenia is the most ethnically homogeneous country in the Balkans, and
the Bosnia (not Serbia) is the most multicultural and diverse.
>: > If you have any problems with the evidence I've provided, deal with it.
>
>: I not only dealed with it, I actually listed it. The evidence is
>non-existent.
>
>You're in denial.
Likewise.
>: You claim they bombed themselves. What's the evidence?
>
>See in my earlier post.
Sure, like your "opinions"-based article? By this deluded standard, David
Irving is right because, after all, it's his opinion there was no Holocaust,
and there are lots of "opinions" of like-minded ideologues to back that up.
Naturally, introduction of actual evidence of such claims need not apply.
>: Accusations by sources : based on opinion and possibility (a mortar
>that both sides have access to). No : physical evidence that the
>Bosnian Muslims committed any of these market : massacres
>
>You're denying reality.
>: (although it's entirely possible considering the Crusades-like :
>ethnic-religious atmosphere among some of the inhabitants there). When
>you make : a claim of certainty, you have to back it up. Having a
>Canadian general saying : that he thinks the other side might have done
>it doesn't cut it.
>
>Demonstrating your illiteracy again?
No, I'm actually repeating what you said, and which you now freely admit.
>: > Put up or shut up.
>
>: Likewise. Show me the evidence that they bombed their own people,
>
>See the sources listed.
Which you now admit are based not on fact but opinion.
>: instead of : someone's opinion hidden by a mere headline. If you
>tried this in debate class, : or a thesis, you would be thrown out in 5
>minutes. :
>
>Your problems are stupidity, ignorance, illiteracy, and brainwashing.
This is the language that is supposed to pass for a peace activist? Your
true colors are shining through. Of course, I presume you will claim that
correcting your grammatical errors was a lucky guess on my part.
>I have no intention of trying to persuade you of anything. That would be
>the labour of Sysyphus considering the handicap.
Or the propagandist who is attempting to brainwash others, except you're
doing this in a free and open setting, so you can't get away with such PR
without being called on your willful inaccuracies.
>If you find any problems with my evidence, get back to me. Or even
>better, I suggest you stop making a fool of yourself. This discussion
>seems to be a bit over your head, pal.
OK, I invite other readers to intervene and make their own judgments. Do
you think it's over my head to note Yuri's statements about how Bosnian
Muslims killed their own people, claimed it a fact, then cited sources whose
"evidence" was actually based on opinion, and then when called on it
responded with the usual schoolyard behavior, only to finally admit that it
was indeed based on "opinions"?
"This time," as if there was a last time? These aren't Bosnian Muslims
admitting to bombing their own people (as there wasn't before when you tried
passing opinion off as fact), but Croats (the Serbs ethnic cleansing
brothers) admitting to doing what the Serbs (through you) and Bosnians
(through the Western media) do, spread b.s. and PR.
Ferg
> Ferg (fergu...@yahoo.com) wrote:
>
> : Until these dogs can prove their membership of the human
> : race, I will remain anti-Serb
>
> More racist garbage from Ferg.
>
> These are NATzO humanitarians...
Who cares what you think, the point is, NATO stood up to the
Serbian mass-murderers and said "enough is enough".
Kosovo didn't end up going the same way as Bosnia (remember,
another ethnic war started by Serbs) because NATO sorted the
aggressors out quick smart instead of allowing the
mass-murders to continue for 4 years.
After the treatment the Serbs dealt out to unarmed UN troops
in Bosnia (remember, tying them to radio towers and bridges
and using them as human shields?) is it any wonder that NATO
was so happy to bomb the crap out of the Serb arseholes?
The obvious lesson to Serbia is "Don't fuck with NATO -
listen to them and deal with your problems in a
non-Commie-Nazi totalitarian way".
You only defend Serbia because you belong to the minority of
those who actually benefited from the ugly oppression that
was communism in Eastern Europe and you still hanker after
the days when you could act like a savage without regard to
the consequences.
Those days are over, commie-lover, and your ilk will soon be
nothing more than an unpleasant blot on the pages of the
history of the human race.
Communism is DEAD - and so are the Nazis that the Serbs
resemble so much.
Yuri Kuchinsky
: > Ferg (fergu...@yahoo.com) wrote:
: >
: > : Until these dogs can prove their membership of the human
: > : race, I will remain anti-Serb
: >
: > More racist garbage from Ferg.
: >
: > These are NATzO humanitarians...
:
: Who cares what you think, the point is, NATO stood up to the
: Serbian mass-murderers and said "enough is enough".
A Nazi like you should know all about mass murder. You're specialists in
this department.
Yuri.
"The real winners, then, are Clinton and Blair and their coteries, and
militarist factions and weapons makers everywhere. ... The stocks of
Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, and their military contractor comrades are
moving up smartly in parallel with the rise in the U.S. military budget;
and across the globe military expenditures are expected to soar. The
NATO victory has shown non-NATO countries that international law no
longer protects them, and the rush is on to seriously upgrade weapons
systems (including the cheaper chemical and biological weapons) to
prevent similar "humanitarian intervention" by the great powers
elsewhere. This renewed arms race, along with smashed countries and
greater instability in the Balkans, are the major legacies of the NATO
war." -- (From VICTORY FOR WHOM? by Edward S. Herman)
Yuri Kuchinsky
: >: > Here's a hint: I'm using various prestige Western media sources to back
: >: > up my claims.
: >
: >: Ha, prestigious Western media.
> >Learn to read. I said "prestige". There's a difference, you know?
>
> No, I just corrected your grammatical error. Well, here, O literate one,
> let's re-quote the disputed sentence. "Here's a hint: I'm using various
> prestige Western media sources to back up my claims."
>
> That is a grammatical error.
No, it's not.
> Prestige is a noun.
"Prestige media" is a common idiomatic expression. For example,
From: Pi...@piper.com
Subject: Re: Prestige Media Ignoring Watkins Story
Date: 11 Jan 1997 00:00:00 GMT
Message-ID: <5b6rjf$6...@boursy.news.erols.com>
Why is it my fault that you're so clued out?
> You need a more
> qualifying and descriptive version of prestige (i.e., an adjective).
> The proper adjective to prestige is prestigious, which is not a
> difference but a correction.
>
> As for the "difference" between these two words here's the Webster's
> dictionary definition of the two.
>
> Prestige--n. 1. The power to impress or influence. 2. Reputation based
> on high achievement, character, etc.
>
> Prestigious--adj. Having or imparting PRESTIGE [emphasis mine] or
> distinction.
>
> Real difference there, but then you're the one who accuses me of being
> "illiterate." I suppose we know the truthfulness of that one--about the
> same as your other claims of fact based on an opinion of the possibility
> that one of the groups bombed their own people.
>
> >: There is no prestigious Western media. It's on : the dole for Ted
> >Turner and Rupert Murdoch. Didn't you learn this from watching : CNN
> >during the Gulf War and the Balkans Wars?
> >
> >So what kind of evidence do you want me to cite then?
>
> Actual evidence,
So go to the sources I cited. Or do an Internet search. Why do I have to
spoon-feed an ignoramus like you?
> not opinions of people with a vested interested in a
> PR line for their side.
No, idiot, I offered no opinions of people with a vested interest in a PR
line for their side.
> For example, evidence that shows only Bosnian Muslims had access to
> the mortars used.
I gave my sources. Why are you wasting my time now?
> >Are you ever dumb... The Independent [London] 22 August 1992. This was
> >also reported in the Toronto Star on 23 August 1992.
> >
> >: The opinion of General MacKenzie,
> >
> >Get a clue. See above. LOTS OF PEOPLE expressed the same opinions...
>
> And lots of people also expressed the opposite opinions.
Yes, I guess you're addicted to CNN...
> And the facts? There's no evidence, which you are now admitting.
You're a liar. I admitted no such thing.
> You knew from the start there wasn't any "evidence" "proving" that the
> Muslims bombed their own people (just, in your word, "opinions").
You're lying.
> Opinions of something that might have happened doesn't exceed the bar
> of evidence. In the common law court system, at best, this is
> testimony, which one can choose to believe or discount. You're a
> believer, for obvious reasons (as Ferg is a believer for other side's
> butchers).
False.
> >So? Perhaps he doesn't know who did it, but he knows that the Serbs
> >didn't do it?
>
> Wrong. In that interview, MacKenzie states he doesn't know who did
> it, period, on either side.
You're too stupid. There were many sides and many players.
> He admits that it could've been either one, which is the truth, but
> hardly proves that either one actually did it.
...
> >You're doing the dirty work of NATO. You blame the war on the "local
> >ethnic hatreds", and this is exactly what KKKlinton wants you to think.
> >You're a brainwashed idiot.
> >The real butchers of the Balkans are Germany and US, but
> >pseudo-progressives like you are trying to shift the blame elsewhere.
>
> Yugoslavia was breaking up long before Germany and the U.S. got
> involved.
You're lying.
> Actually, the U.S. opposed the initial breakup of Yugoslavia
I know. It was Germany who was in the lead originally.
> (what with it being $10 billion in debt to international lenders), and
> even went so far as to oppose the recognition of Croatia in December
> '91. It was after the atrocities of Bosnia in 1992 that we finally
> got involved,
You're both stupid and ignorant.
> and even then taking sides, which is normally what happens with
> non-peaceful superpowers with huge militaries. It has nothing to do
> with morality or right and wrong, which you as a ethnic apologist
> should fully understand.
You're lying. I have no ethnic connection to Serbia.
> >Your rant is disgustingly condescending. You're blaming the victims for
> >the sins of the meddling outsiders.
>
>
> Outsiders? Where? At Srebrenica?
Don't try to change the subject now. This is a separate subject about
which you're no doubt also clued out.
> Now tell me, how was Germany, the U.S., or any foreign power
> responsible for that one?
It will take too long to explain to a moron.
...
> >And neither do I, idiot. Of course some Serb extremists committed
> >atrocities. But I don't want Serbs to be blamed for those they did not
> >commit.
>
>
> Now you're contradicting yourself.
False.
> Earlier in this post, you claimed, "The real butchers of the Balkans
> are Germany and US...." and, "You're blaming the victims for the sins
> of the meddling outsiders." Now here you are trying to feign concern
> about "Serb extremists" who you obviously don't name. Where? Not in
> Kosovo (the worst act of Serb extremism in the entire Balkans wars
> this past decade). You think their mass expulsions and slaughter were
> in defense against NATO. This is like running into some American
> redneck who thinks that our imprisonment of hundreds of thousands of
> Japanese Americans during WWII was defending ourselves against
> Hirohito. If you can come into these new groups and talk about
> Muslims killing themselves and Albanians being kicked out by NATO, I
> think it's safe to say your concern about Serb extremists is about the
> same as Ferg's concern for Croat extremists, zilch.
You sound like a nice NATzO dupe.
> >Croatia is the most "ethnically purified" country in the Balkans, while
> >Serbia is the most multi-ethnic. If you don't see this as significant,
> >there's no hope for you...
>
> No, Slovenia is the most ethnically homogeneous country in the
> Balkans,
Slovenia has traditionally been homogenious. But Croatia became so after
repeated ethnic cleansings.
> and the Bosnia (not Serbia) is the most multicultural and diverse.
But the problem is that this "country" exists only in the imagination of
brainwashed dupes like you.
So this was done by Croats, but the Muslims are too "good and naturally
superior" to do such a thing? Now you sound much like a racist with your
preferred ethnic group.
Here, dummy, perhaps you can accept this as an objective analysis? Or do
you think FAIR is also part of your paranoid "sinister ethnic
conspiracy"?
http://www.fair.org/extra/9210/bosnia.html
[quote]
Images of Atrocities
Coverage of Yugoslavia "has been driven by pictures of violence," an
anonymous senior network producer told the New York Times (6/10/92).
"Everybody seems to want to go for the blood.... It's back to, 'Cut me a
minute of bang-bang.' But nobody wants to go into the issues behind the
bangs." In turn, images of atrocities have driven U.S. and international
policy toward the conflict.
The most spectacular example was the May 27 Sarajevo breadline massacre,
which occurred shortly before the European Community was to consider
sanctions against Serbia. The gruesome pictures of blood-drenched pavement
and severed limbs were broadcast around the world, and the press--despite
lack of evidence--concluded that this was a deliberate Serbian mortar
attack: "cease-fire, Serbian-style" (U.S. News & World Report, 6/8/92),
"shattering hopes that Serbian aggression had been curbed by the threat of
international sanctions." (L.A. Times, 5/28) Within several days, the Bush
administration, citing the attack, championed the passage of severe UN
sanctions against Serbia.
Only three months later was it revealed in a front-page story in the
London Independent (8/22/92) that "United Nations officials and Western
military officers believe some of the worst recent killings in Sarajevo,
including the massacre of at least 16 people in a bread queue, were the
work of the city's mainly Muslim defenders--not Serb besiegers--as a
propaganda ploy to win world sympathy and trigger military intervention."
This sensational revelation--that the press had been spectacularly
duped--was carried by a number of U.S. news agencies (AP, Reuters, CNN,
ABC), though not as prominently as the initial incident. Among those
ignoring the story was the New York Times , which had given front-page
coverage to what it treated as deliberate Serbian attacks--both the
breadline massacre and another incident believed to have been similarly
staged, the August 4 attack on a funeral for "Croatian orphan" Vedrana
Glavas (in fact Serbian, and not an orphan).
The breadline massacre was not the first time that the New York Times ,
whose coverage had been among the most one-sided, has reported fiction as
fact. Sometimes the paper ignores its own reports, as in a June 27
headline, "Serbs Shatter Airport Truce," over an article that notes in
paragraph 7 that Bosnian government forces "admitted" to breaking the
cease-fire.
[unquote]
Read this whole long article, and maybe you'll manage to learn something
new... I won't bet on it though.
Tony W. Frye
>
> : >: > Here's a hint: I'm using various prestige Western media sources to back
> : >: > up my claims.
> : >
> : >: Ha, prestigious Western media.
>
> > >Learn to read. I said "prestige". There's a difference, you know?
> >
> > No, I just corrected your grammatical error. Well, here, O literate one,
> > let's re-quote the disputed sentence. "Here's a hint: I'm using various
> > prestige Western media sources to back up my claims."
> >
> > That is a grammatical error.
>
> No, it's not.
>
> > Prestige is a noun.
>
> "Prestige media" is a common idiomatic expression. For example,
>
> From: Pi...@piper.com
> Subject: Re: Prestige Media Ignoring Watkins Story
> Date: 11 Jan 1997 00:00:00 GMT
> Message-ID: <5b6rjf$6...@boursy.news.erols.com>
>
> Why is it my fault that you're so clued out?
Here's the sentence in question, "I'm using various prestige Western media sources
to back up my claims." "Prestige Western media" is not an idiom. "Prestige
media," however, as used in this Noam Chomksy sentence, is an idiom, "We're much
more aware of the media, particularly the prestige media, because those who
critically analyze ideology have focused on them." By adding "Western," you
infused an adjective where one didn't previously exist, thereby splitting the
idiom.
To better illustrate this, "glamour boy" is a common idiom that generally means
someone who is a glamour or attention-seeker (along with being rather immature).
Infuse "Canadian" into it and it reads "glamour Canadian boy." That is splitting
an idiom, and when it's corrected don't expect sympathy by referring to its
pre-mutilated form.
> > >So what kind of evidence do you want me to cite then?
> >
> > Actual evidence,
>
> So go to the sources I cited. Or do an Internet search. Why do I have to
> spoon-feed an ignoramus like you?
Because you don't have the "evidence." There is not ONE reputable source you
cited which stated that these mortars were only accessible to Bosnian Muslims.
You quoted newspaper headlines and infused your opinion afterwards. That is not
evidence.
> > not opinions of people with a vested interested in a
> > PR line for their side.
>
> No, idiot, I offered no opinions of people with a vested interest in a PR
> line for their side.
[snip for ad hominem]
> > For example, evidence that shows only Bosnian Muslims had access to
> > the mortars used.
>
> I gave my sources. Why are you wasting my time now?
I'm not. I asked you for evidence and you gave me (by your own admission)
"opinions" or an article about some U.N. bureaucrat saying that he "believes" that
the Bosnian Muslims could've done it. A newspaper headline whose crux is an
opinion based on possibility or probability doesn't cut it.
> > >Are you ever dumb... The Independent [London] 22 August 1992. This was
> > >also reported in the Toronto Star on 23 August 1992.
> > >
> > >: The opinion of General MacKenzie,
> > >
> > >Get a clue. See above. LOTS OF PEOPLE expressed the same opinions...
> >
> > And lots of people also expressed the opposite opinions.
>
> Yes, I guess you're addicted to CNN...
You mean those "prestige Western media" sources who you insincerely attack one
moment and cite from as authority the next? Sure, I know all about these
hypocrites and propagandists. That's why I get my sources from publications like
_Peace_ magazine, and other sources in the alternative media.
> > And the facts? There's no evidence, which you are now admitting.
>
> You're a liar. I admitted no such thing.
This was your exact response to my criticism of your "evidence" article (The
Independent [London] 22 August 1992), in which I called you on your claim that
this source and others were not evidentiary but just an opinion, "Get a clue. See
above. LOTS OF PEOPLE expressed the same opinions..." That's your evidence,
opinions. It's the same thing with the U.N. story. Someone there "believes" that
the Bosnian Muslims could've done it, so you cite that as authority that they
actually bombed the marketplaces. You tried the same thing with General
MacKenzie, but as you will see just below, your use of him as a source to prove
that Bosnian Muslims bombed the marketplaces was as patently dishonest as the rest
of your non-existent "evidence."
> > You knew from the start there wasn't any "evidence" "proving" that the
> > Muslims bombed their own people (just, in your word, "opinions").
>
> You're lying.
See above.
> > >So? Perhaps he doesn't know who did it, but he knows that the Serbs
> > >didn't do it?
> >
> > Wrong. In that interview, MacKenzie states he doesn't know who did
> > it, period, on either side.
>
> You're too stupid. There were many sides and many players.
Many sides, many players? Backtracking already, Ferg, oops, Yuri? [You two are
so much alike, it's tough to tell you guys apart sometimes.] First you claim as a
fact that the Bosnian Muslims committed the marketplace bombings, and used General
MacKenzie as a source for that "evidence." When I call you on this falsity, you
then try to backtrack and claim that he might not know who committed the bombings
after all (some evidence!), but certainly it wasn't the Serbs (hmmm, no worry
about "Serb extremists" there). When corrected, now you call me "stupid" and then
attempt to infuse the "many sides and many players" disclaimer. That's not going
to work for you this time.
Here's the words of General MacKenzie, who you originally used as a source to
prove that the Bosnian Muslims committed the marketplace bombings.
"My book says quite clearly that we will never know who did the breadline
massacre. People say I am accusing the Bosnians of doing it to themselves. And I
say, no, absolutely not!...when I say it could have been the Bosnian side, that
does not mean it was government policy; it could have been one of many criminal
elements, a freelance unit or, EQUALLY [emphasis mine], it could been the Bosnian
Serb side."
My sentiments exactly.
This is from General MacKenzie's interview with the Canadian pacifist _Peace_
magazine (November-December 1998 issue, page 18). Its Internet site is
http://www.peacemagazine.org/index.html.
> > He admits that it could've been either one, which is the truth, but
> > hardly proves that either one actually did it.
>
> ...
>
> > >You're doing the dirty work of NATO. You blame the war on the "local
> > >ethnic hatreds", and this is exactly what KKKlinton wants you to think.
> > >You're a brainwashed idiot.
> > >The real butchers of the Balkans are Germany and US, but
> > >pseudo-progressives like you are trying to shift the blame elsewhere.
> >
> > Yugoslavia was breaking up long before Germany and the U.S. got
> > involved.
>
> You're lying.
By the 1980s Yugoslavia was already $10 billion in debt to lending institutions in
the West. This was a result of Tito's conversion of Yugoslavia to a capitalist
economy, while simultaneously maintaining a Communist governing structure (very
much like the capitalist deviationists in China's ruling Communist government
today). This conversion to loan capitalism had the consequence of destroying the
Yugoslav economy. By 1988, industrial output in Yugoslavia had contracted 20% (in
one year). From the mid 1980s, the Yugoslav economy was in full free-fall,
precipitating and exacerbating the socioeconomic situation, discrediting the
Yugoslav state, and helping to incite the national break-up that would occur in
1990-91. Germany's involvement began later, right after its reunification in
1990, when it pushed for recognition of Croatia. The U.S. involvement, what one
there was, initially opposed any break-up, as our vested interest was in wanting
to see Yugoslavia continue in its unified federation to pay of its debts to our
bankers. We even went so far as the oppose the December 1991 recognition of
Croatia by the EEC (instigated by Germany). Our military involvement began as a
consequence of the Bosnian civil war (starting in 1992), which was in part
instigated by the one-sided coverage of CNN.
> > and even then taking sides, which is normally what happens with
> > non-peaceful superpowers with huge militaries. It has nothing to do
> > with morality or right and wrong, which you as a ethnic apologist
> > should fully understand.
>
> You're lying. I have no ethnic connection to Serbia.
An apologist need not be a member of the group. As far as I know, Ferg is not
Croatian.
> > >Your rant is disgustingly condescending. You're blaming the victims for
> > >the sins of the meddling outsiders.
> >
> >
> > Outsiders? Where? At Srebrenica?
>
> Don't try to change the subject now. This is a separate subject about
> which you're no doubt also clued out.
Change the subject? I'm asking a question. You claim that the crimes in the
Balkans were committed by outsiders. I merely showed you one instance, the 1995
massacre of Srebrenica (perpetrated by Chetnik Serbs and mercenary Croats) to
disprove this. The vast majority of the people killed in the Balkans over the
past 10 years were killed by people from the Balkans (insiders).
> > Now tell me, how was Germany, the U.S., or any foreign power
> > responsible for that one?
>
> It will take too long to explain to a moron.
Sure, it will take you too long to make up an excuse for your favored killers.
> > Earlier in this post, you claimed, "The real butchers of the Balkans
> > are Germany and US...." and, "You're blaming the victims for the sins
> > of the meddling outsiders." Now here you are trying to feign concern
> > about "Serb extremists" who you obviously don't name. Where? Not in
> > Kosovo (the worst act of Serb extremism in the entire Balkans wars
> > this past decade). You think their mass expulsions and slaughter were
> > in defense against NATO. This is like running into some American
> > redneck who thinks that our imprisonment of hundreds of thousands of
> > Japanese Americans during WWII was defending ourselves against
> > Hirohito. If you can come into these new groups and talk about
> > Muslims killing themselves and Albanians being kicked out by NATO, I
> > think it's safe to say your concern about Serb extremists is about the
> > same as Ferg's concern for Croat extremists, zilch.
>
> You sound like a nice NATzO dupe.
I'm right there with the real peaceniks. Here's the Women in Black, a
pacifist-feminist group in Belgrade. Notice the commonality of their views with
my views on these same issues.
http://www.neww.org/kosova/belgrade.htm
http://www.neww.org/kosova/Belgrade/041299bel.htm
http://www.neww.org/kosova/Belgrade/032499le.htm
http://www.igc.apc.org/balkans/women/wib-st.html
Those are real peaceniks, Yuri, not the phony, situational "peace activists" who
spend all of their time making excuses for their side's massacres by denying that
they ever took place, or blaming those slaughters on others.
Naturally, being a pacifist in Belgrade has its disadvantages. Like peaceniks
everywhere, we get accused of being dupes for the other side because of our
moralizing that all killers are just that, butchers who deserve no support.
Here's an excellent article on what the Women in Black in Belgrade have to
confront.
http://www.feminista.com/v3n1/hughes.html
This is a quote from that article from a Yugoslav government official during the
NATO-Yugoslav war, criticizing the Women in Black for opposing BOTH the war on
Yugoslavia and the ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians.
"We should take the US threats very seriously but we must not be frightened. We
will have an enormous number of victims and great material damages, but we don't
have a spare fatherland. We must fight at all costs; no matter by whom we are
attacked. Our determination to defend ourselves by all means should prove that if
they want to attack us they should withdraw their supporters. Š[the US should]
withdraw their quislings, like Š. Women in Black, and not leave them as hostages.
Maybe we can not reach every airplane, but we will grab those who are close to
us."
Hmmm, sound familiar?
And from this quisling, I say, amen.
> > >Croatia is the most "ethnically purified" country in the Balkans, while
> > >Serbia is the most multi-ethnic. If you don't see this as significant,
> > >there's no hope for you...
> >
> > No, Slovenia is the most ethnically homogeneous country in the
> > Balkans,
>
> Slovenia has traditionally been homogenious. But Croatia became so after
> repeated ethnic cleansings.
Slovenia today has a population that is 91% Slovene. Croatia (after its ethnic
cleansing of most of its Serb population) is 87% Croat.
> > and the Bosnia (not Serbia) is the most multicultural and diverse.
>
> But the problem is that this "country" exists only in the imagination of
> brainwashed dupes like you.
No less than the rump state that still is Yugoslavia, but I still include Kosovo
in its population census, as does my almanac.
> > "This time," as if there was a last time? These aren't Bosnian
> > Muslims admitting to bombing their own people (as there wasn't before
> > when you tried passing opinion off as fact), but Croats (the Serbs
> > ethnic cleansing brothers) admitting to doing what the Serbs (through
> > you) and Bosnians (through the Western media) do, spread b.s. and PR.
>
> So this was done by Croats, but the Muslims are too "good and naturally
> superior" to do such a thing? Now you sound much like a racist with your
> preferred ethnic group.
Not at all. You're the one making the racist leap by ethnically associating Croat
PR with being evidence that proves Bosnian Muslims bomb themselves. I've said
from the very beginning that Bosnian Muslims may well have committed some or even
all of these marketplace bombings. My view is in line with MacKenzie on this.
However, unlike you, I do not trust ANY of the sides in this because all of them
have the habit of lying through their teeth, which is why I have little respect
for people who try to pass off "opinions" (by your own admittance) as fact. This
is a very common practice among the ethnic lobbies from the Balkans, and I have no
room for it anymore than I do for U.S. State Department lies about how it bombed a
chemical weapons (i.e., pharmaceutical) factory in Sudan—based off the opinion of
the CIA, of course.
> Here, dummy, perhaps you can accept this as an objective analysis? Or do
> you think FAIR is also part of your paranoid "sinister ethnic
> conspiracy"?
>
> http://www.fair.org/extra/9210/bosnia.html
> The breadline massacre was not the first time that the New York Times ,
> whose coverage had been among the most one-sided, has reported fiction as
> fact. Sometimes the paper ignores its own reports, as in a June 27
> headline, "Serbs Shatter Airport Truce," over an article that notes in
> paragraph 7 that Bosnian government forces "admitted" to breaking the
> cease-fire.
I don't dispute this at all. The quote criticizes the pro-Bosnian sympathies of
the New York Times (whose habit of passing partisan opinion as fact is actually
the same methodology that you use in these posts).
Since you like quoting from FAIR, here's FAIR columnist Norman Solomon, "The
regimes based in Belgrade, Zagreb and Sarajevo can point to horrible massacres
perpetrated by each other during the 1990s. Those governments insist that the
atrocities they committed did not really occur -- or were justified in response to
earlier monstrous offenses."
http://www.fair.org/media-beat/990610.html
Now, let us compare this rational critique with some of your previous statements.
"The real butchers of the Balkans are Germany and US, but pseudo-progressives like
you are trying to shift the blame elsewhere."
"So a NATO-armed murdering terrorist is the same in your eyes as someone defending
their small country from an attack by NATO?"
Seems like Solomon and FAIR have a better grip on reality.
Yuri Kuchinsky
I find you extremely evasive and deceitful, Tony. Really you're a pathetic
liar. Now you're saying,
> I've said from the very beginning that Bosnian Muslims may well have
> committed some or even all of these marketplace bombings.
You lie. Because you've never allowed for this possibility in your opening
post. In fact, you've opened by smearing me with being a follower of the
Nazi "Institute for Historical Review".
So now, according to you, this subject becomes legitimate, all of a
sudden. This is what a liar you are...
> > So go to the sources I cited. Or do an Internet search. Why do I have to
> > spoon-feed an ignoramus like you?
>
> Because you don't have the "evidence."
You're lying again. I've provided cites from FAIR.
> There is not ONE reputable source you cited which stated that these
> mortars were only accessible to Bosnian Muslims.
So now you're raising the bar of evidentiary proof to a new level.
Listen, punk, I have no interest in discussing this subject with you. I
consider you as yet more lying and smearing Net trash. This is how you
presented yourself right from the beginning.
You're not interested in truth, but merely in wasting my time, in having
a pissing contest here, and in smears.
"I'm a better peace activist than you?" Get lost, idiot.
I consider that I've made my point already, since you now admit that my
scenario is plausible. Case closed AFAIAC.
[huge snip]
> Here's the words of General MacKenzie, who you originally used as a
> source to prove that the Bosnian Muslims committed the marketplace
> bombings.
>
> "My book says quite clearly that we will never know who did the
> breadline massacre. People say I am accusing the Bosnians of doing it
> to themselves. And I say, no, absolutely not!...when I say it could
> have been the Bosnian side, that does not mean it was government
> policy; it could have been one of many criminal elements, a freelance
> unit or, EQUALLY [emphasis mine], it could been the Bosnian Serb
> side."
>
> My sentiments exactly.
>
> This is from General MacKenzie's interview with the Canadian pacifist
> _Peace_ magazine (November-December 1998 issue, page 18). Its
> Internet site is http://www.peacemagazine.org/index.html.
And this is from his book:
> Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie, first UNPROFOR Commander
> writes in his book, "Peacekeeper, the Road to Sarajevo" (unavailable
> in the United States),
>
> "Our people tell us there were a number of things that didn't fit. The
> street had been blocked off just before the incident. Once the crowd
> was let in and lined up, the media appeared but kept their distance.
> The attack took place, and the media were immediately on the scene.
> The majority of the victims were alleged to be 'tame Serbs.'
Sure seems rather suspect to me that the media was there right on key...
In any case, my refs used MacKenzie only incidentally. Now you're trying
to distract attention once again, like a NATzO stooge that you are.
> > > Yugoslavia was breaking up long before Germany and the U.S. got
> > > involved.
> >
> > You're lying.
>
> By the 1980s Yugoslavia was already $10 billion in debt to lending
> institutions in the West. This was a result of Tito's conversion of
> Yugoslavia to a capitalist economy, while simultaneously maintaining a
> Communist governing structure (very much like the capitalist
> deviationists in China's ruling Communist government today). This
> conversion to loan capitalism had the consequence of destroying the
> Yugoslav economy. By 1988, industrial output in Yugoslavia had
> contracted 20% (in one year). From the mid 1980s, the Yugoslav
> economy was in full free-fall, precipitating and exacerbating the
> socioeconomic situation, discrediting the Yugoslav state, and helping
> to incite the national break-up that would occur in 1990-91.
But there was still peace in the country.
> Germany's involvement began later, right after its reunification in
> 1990, when it pushed for recognition of Croatia. The U.S.
> involvement, what one there was, initially opposed any break-up,
You're distorting the evidence now.
[quote]
http://serbianlinks.freehosting.net/tragedy.html
Origins of the breakup -- a U.S. law
A year before the breakup of the Socialist Federal Republic of
Yugoslavia, on Nov. 5, 1990, the U.S. Congress passed the 1991
Foreign Operations Appropriations Law 101-513. This bill was a
signed death warrant. One provision in particular was so lethal that
even a CIA report described three weeks later in the Nov. 27, 1990,
New York Times predicted it would lead to a bloody civil war.
A section of Law 101-513 suddenly and without previous warning cut
off all aid, trade, credits and loans from the U.S. to Yugoslavia
within six months. It also ordered separate elections in each of the
six republics that make up Yugoslavia, requiring State Department
approval of election procedures and results before aid to the
separate republics would be resumed. The legislation further
required U.S. personnel in all international financial institutions
such as the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund to
enforce this cut-off policy for all credits and loans.
There was one final provision. Only forces that the U.S. State
Department defined as "democratic forces" would receive funding.
This meant an influx of funds to small right-wing nationalist
parties in a financially strangled region suddenly thrown into
crisis by the overall funding cut-off.
The impact was, as expected, devastating.
[end quote]
So once again you're lying and acting like a stooge for the US govt. Are
we surprised?
What's the point of wasting time with someone who's obviously so biased
and dishonest as you?
> as our
"Our" means you identify with US govt? How indicative...
> vested interest was in wanting to see Yugoslavia continue in
> its unified federation to pay of its debts to our bankers.
The evidence says otherwise.
> We even went so far as the oppose the December 1991 recognition of
> Croatia by the EEC (instigated by Germany). Our military involvement
> began as a consequence of the Bosnian civil war
US _provoked_ the Bosnian war, you, moron.
> (starting in 1992), which was in part instigated by the one-sided
> coverage of CNN.
Yes, including this.
> > > Outsiders? Where? At Srebrenica?
> >
> > Don't try to change the subject now. This is a separate subject about
> > which you're no doubt also clued out.
>
> Change the subject? I'm asking a question. You claim that the crimes
> in the Balkans were committed by outsiders. I merely showed you one
> instance, the 1995 massacre of Srebrenica (perpetrated by Chetnik
> Serbs and mercenary Croats) to disprove this.
You're distorting once again, but I refuse to be sidetracked now.
> The vast majority of the people killed in the Balkans over the past 10
> years were killed by people from the Balkans (insiders).
[huge snip]
> > > and the Bosnia (not Serbia) is the most multicultural and diverse.
> >
> > But the problem is that this "country" exists only in the imagination of
> > brainwashed dupes like you.
>
> No less than the rump state that still is Yugoslavia, but I still
> include Kosovo in its population census, as does my almanac.
You're lying.
Now, I really recommend you go and play somewhere else and stop making a
fool of yourself with your continuing lies, distortions, and smears.
You're disgusting.
Sam Barber
yu...@mail.trends.ca (Yuri Kuchinsky) wrote:
> Ferg (fergu...@yahoo.com) wrote:
> : Who cares what you think, the point is, NATO stood up to the
> : Serbian mass-murderers and said "enough is enough".
>
> A Nazi like you should know all about mass murder. You're specialists
> in this department.
Yuri's Sunday Nazi fest begins.
He doesn't have much else to do.
>
> Yuri.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
ง R A I D E R ง
wrote:
>>In article <7p1k5h$52c$5...@hub.org>,
>> yu...@mail.trends.ca (Yuri Kuchinsky) wrote:
>> : Ferg (fergu...@yahoo.com) wrote:
>> :
>> : Who cares what you think, the point is, NATO stood up to the
>> : Serbian mass-murderers and said "enough is enough".
>>
>> A Nazi like you should know all about mass murder. You're specialists
>> in this department.
>
>Yuri's Sunday Nazi fest begins.
>
>He doesn't have much else to do.
That's a Canadian trait. Once hockey season is over, and they have
no place to go to be hostages, or to rape nurses and terrorize mental
patients, or backshoot unarmed teenagers, all they can do is bitch
about us in order to try to deflect everyone away from their failure
to make a positive contribution to peace and stability anywhere in
the world.
© R A I D E R ©
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate. - Steven Wright
Tony W. Frye
>
> I find you extremely evasive and deceitful, Tony. Really you're a pathetic
> liar. Now you're saying,
>
> > I've said from the very beginning that Bosnian Muslims may well have
> > committed some or even all of these marketplace bombings.
>
> You lie. Because you've never allowed for this possibility in your opening
> post.
Really. Here's an August 9th post of mine on this exact thread. "What's the
evidence [to your claim that Bosnian Muslims committed all of the marketplace
massacres]? Accusations by sources based on opinion and possibility (a mortar
that both sides have access to). No physical evidence that the Bosnian Muslims
committed any of these market massacres (although it's entirely possible
considering the Crusades-like ethnic-religious atmosphere among some of the
inhabitants there)."
This was almost a week ago, in my second response post to you on this thread. I
can presume that throughout this thread, you have either not bothered to read
all of my responses to your posts, or you just wanted to get another opportunity
to falsely accuse me of lying (perfectly understandable considering your
non-factual, ad populum/ad hominem-based style of conversing in these posts).
As I've said from the beginning, unlike you, I've never put it above any of the
groups to commit these marketplace bombings. That's because all of these groups
involved are combatants, and warfare brings out the most dishonest and deceptive
in the perpetrators and their apologists.
> In fact, you've opened by smearing me with being a follower of the
> Nazi "Institute for Historical Review".
That's not what I said at all. You're trying to be slippery again, like you
just previously did when accusing me of never once believing that any of the
groups could've committed the marketplace massacres. Here, let's correct your
mistake, so you can get my accusations right. "You submit absolutely no
evidence to "prove" that Bosnian Muslims bombed these marketplaces (such as
showing us the Bosnian Muslim soldiers who committed these acts or submitting
something resembling actual evidence which shows that these shells were
definitely fired by them), but is just revisionist reporting with slogans
befitting the front pages of a publication from the Institute for Historical
Review. Your methodology of factual verification perfectly mirrors the
Holocaust hoaxers who "prove" that there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz by
quoting "expert" articles written by non-experts like David Irving, or old
German Nazis with a vested interest in perpetuating their point of view."
Nowhere in this did I ever accuse you of being a member or follower of the
Institute for Historical Review. You see, when I make accusations they are
actually backed up with something resembling a logical argument with even a
correlation, not the silly schoolyard "your mama" ad hominems that shows an
unpolished set of beliefs that you can't even back up when you attempt to
propagandize them. I stated that your "methodology" of trying to pass
"opinions" (your admittance) off as facts is the same methodology that the
Institute for Historical Review employees to relativize their favored killers.
That is no different than any propagandist. The American government does the
same exact thing, as does CNN. That hardly makes them followers of the
Institute for Historical Review.
> So now, according to you, this subject becomes legitimate, all of a
> sudden. This is what a liar you are...
Sure, like your earlier accusation when you falsely accused me of being a liar
after claiming I never once entertained the possibility that any of the groups
could've bombed the marketplaces in Bosnia?
> > > So go to the sources I cited. Or do an Internet search. Why do I have to
> > > spoon-feed an ignoramus like you?
> >
> > Because you don't have the "evidence."
>
> You're lying again. I've provided cites from FAIR.
Nowhere in the FAIR site did it provide "evidence" that the marketplace
massacres were committed by Bosnian Muslims. This is becoming all too common
with you (I even have to goto the mat with you to correct your grammatical
errors and idiom-splitting). This is the paragraph in contention from the FAIR
site you provided (http://www.fair.org/extra/9210/bosnia.html).
"Only three months later was it revealed in a front-page story in the London
Independent (8/22/92) that 'United Nations
officials and Western military officers believe some of the worst recent
killings in Sarajevo, including the massacre of at least 16
people in a bread queue, were the work of the city's mainly Muslim
defenders--not Serb besiegers--as a propaganda ploy to
win world sympathy and trigger military intervention.'"
In other words, your "evidence" is a site that criticizes the propaganda and the
omissions of the prestige media with a newspaper headline carrying the
accusation of a U.N. official who says they "believe" that some of the
marketplace massacres could've been committed by Bosnian Muslims. As with your
earlier attempt to utilize General MacKenzie to verify your factual claims, this
is not evidence that the Bosnian Muslims committed the massacres.
When you state you have evidence, and introduce opinion, it is what we call in
the legal community "speculation." Now, if you raise it up to an accusation,
and can actually cite this accusation from an expert source, it is considered
viewpoint. This would be corresponding to the testimony of an expert witness.
Testimony and belief are not evidence, as evidence is factual, something based
on more than "opinions."
> > There is not ONE reputable source you cited which stated that these
> > mortars were only accessible to Bosnian Muslims.
>
> So now you're raising the bar of evidentiary proof to a new level.
As with everything else in this post, I'll have to re-quote these contended
parts of this thread to de-bunk your willful falsities.
When I accused you of not providing any evidence to your claims, you asked me
[on August 11], "So what kind of evidence do you want me to cite then?"
To this question, I responded with the suggestion, "Actual evidence...For
example, evidence that shows only Bosnian Muslims had access to the mortars
used."
To this suggestion, you responded, "I gave my sources. Why are you wasting my
time now?" and "Why do I have to spoon-feed an ignoramus like you?"
To your b.s. avoidance, I responded, "Because you don't have the 'evidence.'
There is not ONE reputable source you
cited which stated that these mortars were only accessible to Bosnian Muslims.
You quoted newspaper headlines and infused your opinion afterwards. That is not
evidence."
This is what elicited your response that I was "raising the bar" of evidence by
referring back to the illustration of suggested evidence of a mortar accessible
to only one side (instead of both), and which you asked for. When you ask for
an example of evidence, and I give it to you, it is not "raising the bar" to
refer back to it when I criticize you for submitting "evidence" that is based on
opinions.
> Listen, punk, I have no interest in discussing this subject with you. I
> consider you as yet more lying and smearing Net trash. This is how you
> presented yourself right from the beginning.
You've been watching too many Dirty Harry movies.
> You're not interested in truth, but merely in wasting my time, in having
> a pissing contest here, and in smears.
Sure, like your earlier attempt in this post to smear me when you accused me of
calling you a follower of the Institute for Historical Review, or your
newly-polished childish use of such truth-seeking phrases like "listen, punk,"
and "pissing contest."
> "I'm a better peace activist than you?" Get lost, idiot.
I would only be a better peace activist than you if you were actually a peace
activist. You are not even a pacifist. You even take to imitating Clint
Eastwood and lace your posts with so many schoolground words ("idiot," "punk,"
"moron," "pissing contest"). I have to start questioning your maturity level.
> I consider that I've made my point already, since you now admit that my
> scenario is plausible. Case closed AFAIAC.
Oh, this is convenient. First, you claim that I have never entertained the
notion that any side could've committed these massacres, and then you top it off
by coming back in the same post and declare that since I have opined the
possibility that Bosnian Muslims could've done it then it proves your case that
they actually did it. You've got to do better than that. If you are going to
make false accusations against me, you could at least stick with them in the
same post, instead of accepting that I actually did say that Bosnian Muslims
could've bombed those marketplaces, and then dishonestly LOWERING the bar of
evidence by using my opinion of probability as fact that Bosnian Muslims really
did it.
> > Here's the words of General MacKenzie, who you originally used as a
> > source to prove that the Bosnian Muslims committed the marketplace
> > bombings.
> >
> > "My book says quite clearly that we will never know who did the
> > breadline massacre. People say I am accusing the Bosnians of doing it
> > to themselves. And I say, no, absolutely not!...when I say it could
> > have been the Bosnian side, that does not mean it was government
> > policy; it could have been one of many criminal elements, a freelance
> > unit or, EQUALLY [emphasis mine], it could been the Bosnian Serb
> > side."
> >
> > My sentiments exactly.
> >
> > This is from General MacKenzie's interview with the Canadian pacifist
> > _Peace_ magazine (November-December 1998 issue, page 18). Its
> > Internet site is http://www.peacemagazine.org/index.html.
>
> And this is from his book:
>
> > Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie, first UNPROFOR Commander
> > writes in his book, "Peacekeeper, the Road to Sarajevo" (unavailable
> > in the United States),
> >
> > "Our people tell us there were a number of things that didn't fit. The
> > street had been blocked off just before the incident. Once the crowd
> > was let in and lined up, the media appeared but kept their distance.
> > The attack took place, and the media were immediately on the scene.
> > The majority of the victims were alleged to be 'tame Serbs.'
>
> Sure seems rather suspect to me that the media was there right on key...
Wow, that's real proof (alleged victims and third party sources). And here you
are quoting from a book written by a guy who said that it could've been Bosnian
Serbs who bombed those marketplaces as easily as the Bosnian Muslims.
> Now you're trying to distract attention once again, like a NATzO stooge that
> you are.
This is starting to remind me of the propagandists from Animal Farm who would
drown out any dissent from Napoleon with the lines, "Four feet good. Two feet
bad." That's beyond delusion. A delusional person can be honestly mistaken. I
can tell by your evasions in these posts (replete with diversionary insults)
that you know better, but consciously choose to back your favored combatants and
rationalize their slaughters as Muslim suicide. This shows a great amount of
culpability on your part.
That's just a regurgitation of my comments in my previous response in this
thread when I chronicled the economic causes of the split-up of Yugoslavia
through Yugoslavia's sell-out to IMF austerity-capitalism. Diplomatically, the
U.S. throughout this period opposed the break-up of Yugoslavia. The reasoning
for this is obvious. The U.S. can't get that money back if Yugoslavia breaks
up. This was just a part and parcel of the Bush Administration's support for
the continued federation of the Soviet Union as well. Secretary of State Baker
and President Bush were at one in 1990-1991 in favoring the continued federation
of Yugoslavia, which is why Bush and Baker were so lambasted by the pro-war
crowd, and was enflamed even more when President Bush pushed for and helped
impose an arms embargo on the region. Then entered President Clinton, who in
1993 began the process of eventual U.S. military intervention into Bosnia.
Flounders's article actually lists this ascension of involvement--beginning in
1994 with CIA involvement in Croatia and Bosnia. Clinton also began the process
of allowing the Iranians to come in, subvert Bush's arms embargo, and arm the
Bosnians and Croats.
> What's the point of wasting time with someone who's obviously so biased
> and dishonest as you?
As opposed to your vigorous honesty in using my speculative opinion about how
the Bosnian Muslims could've bombed those makertplaces as evidence proving your
claim that the Bosnian Muslims were indeed guilty? And this after your earlier
accusation (in the same post, no less) that I had never once entertained the
notion that the Bosnian Muslims could've bombed the marketplaces.
> > as our
>
> "Our" means you identify with US govt? How indicative...
No, as in a pejorative term because by accident of birth I am a citizen of the
U.S. Do Iraqi opponents of the Gulf War automatically apply as hacks for Saddam
Hussein? Do you associate with the Canadian government? I would hope not.
Your government and country are nothing more than water carriers for the U.S.
anyway.
> > vested interest was in wanting to see Yugoslavia continue in
> > its unified federation to pay of its debts to our bankers.
>
> The evidence says otherwise.
What? Opinions? Because someone at the U.N. says the other side could've done
it? Because a quote from a book written by a guy who thinks the Bosnian Serbs
could've done it too?
> > We even went so far as the oppose the December 1991 recognition of
> > Croatia by the EEC (instigated by Germany). Our military involvement
> > began as a consequence of the Bosnian civil war
>
> US _provoked_ the Bosnian war, you, moron.
The JNA, not the U.S., invaded Bosnia in 1992. What was President Bush's
response? He imposed an arms embargo, which harmed Bosnia much more than it did
the Serb-dominated JNA. This is why it took the Clinton Administration to come
in after 1993 to subvert Bush's embargo to allow our most-favored killers to arm
themselves.
> > (starting in 1992), which was in part instigated by the one-sided
> > coverage of CNN.
>
> Yes, including this.
>
> > > > Outsiders? Where? At Srebrenica?
> > >
> > > Don't try to change the subject now. This is a separate subject about
> > > which you're no doubt also clued out.
> >
> > Change the subject? I'm asking a question. You claim that the crimes
> > in the Balkans were committed by outsiders. I merely showed you one
> > instance, the 1995 massacre of Srebrenica (perpetrated by Chetnik
> > Serbs and mercenary Croats) to disprove this.
>
> You're distorting once again, but I refuse to be sidetracked now.
This is propaganda-speak for avoidance.
> > The vast majority of the people killed in the Balkans over the past 10
> > years were killed by people from the Balkans (insiders).
>
> [huge snip]
Good dodge.
> > > > and the Bosnia (not Serbia) is the most multicultural and diverse.
> > >
> > > But the problem is that this "country" exists only in the imagination of
> > > brainwashed dupes like you.
> >
> > No less than the rump state that still is Yugoslavia, but I still
> > include Kosovo in its population census, as does my almanac.
>
> You're lying.
What's this, now you contend that Yugoslavia is not a rump state?
> Now, I really recommend you go and play somewhere else and stop making a
> fool of yourself with your continuing lies, distortions, and smears.
>
> You're disgusting.
Here's yet another one of your contradictions. You accuse me making smears
against you, and what do you follow this with? A smear! Have I ever called you
a "moron," "idiot," "punk," or "disgusting"? What hypocrisy. You've done this
throughout these posts. You call me a liar for saying that I've never
considered Bosnian Muslims as possible marketplace bombers, even though I
clearly did. Then you come back and use my concept of the possibility that
Bosnian Muslims could've bombed those marketplaces as evidence proving that they
did it! No distortions there. At least show some consistency or common sense.
If you're going to accuse me of lying on something, don't repeat my opinion that
you said I never harbored. If you are going to accuse me of "smears," you could
at least wait until another part of the post before throwing in your playground
slurs.
Yuri Kuchinsky
So, Tony, will you now apologise for attacking me in such a brutal way
originally, and for slandering me by comparing me to the Nazis and
Holocaust revisionists?
Let's put this whole thing into perspective. Right from the beginning,
Western "free media" had condemned "the Serbs" for these crimes in one
voice. No doubts were ever raised about who may have done these grisly
deeds. As a result, important policy decisions were made on the basis of
these massive vicious and racist propaganda campaigns. Only much later
was it leaked that the identity of the perpetrators is far from clear.
So why did you attack me for trying to set the record straight?
Yuri.
Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
Ferg
>
> So, Tony, will you now apologise for attacking me in such
a brutal way
> originally, and for slandering me by comparing me to the
Nazis and
> Holocaust revisionists?
>
> Let's put this whole thing into perspective. Right from
the beginning,
Which beginning?
The beginning of the war in Kosova, the fourth war started
by the Serbs in the Balkans?
I'd say the media had had plenty of time to examine the
conduct of the Serb dogs in the Balkans over the past decade
before deciding to (correctly) cast them as the 'bad guys'.
> Western "free media" had condemned "the Serbs" for these
crimes in one
As opposed to Serbian "not-free media" which congratulates
Serb criminals like Arkan for these crimes?
> voice. No doubts were ever raised about who may have done
these grisly
> deeds.
Liar. As you yourself have reported here, some people have
indeed raised unsubstantiated doubts over the commisssion of
these crimes.
> As a result, important policy decisions were made on the
basis of
> these massive vicious and racist propaganda campaigns.
No, important policy decisions were made on the basis of the
massive and vicious criminal acts of the Serbs, which
included kidnapping unarmed UN soldiers who were there to
try to keep the peace.
The Serbs decided to declare war on the UN, and they copped
what they deserved for doing so.
> Only much later
> was it leaked that the identity of the perpetrators is far
from clear.
Certain unconvicing people have voiced unconvincing doubts
without any evidence to back them up. Investigations into
these doubts, widely reported in the media, were
inconclusive, leaving us to conclude that in the absence of
any proof to the contrary, we will assume that the culprits
of these horrible crimes, true to character, were the Serbs.
So who massacred all the unarmed men after the fall of
Vukovar?
Is there any doubt as to the identities of the Serbs who
massacred over 200 men after dragging them from their
hospital beds?
Is there any doubt as to the Serbian identity of the
mass-murderers who set-up and ran the concentration camps in
Bosnia?
If there is a slight doubt as to the specific identity of
the mortar-murderers and child-killing snipers in Sarajevo,
it certainly doesn't tally with the numerous interviews done
with those Serb snipers wherein they boasted of the many
muslim civilians they had murdered.
And anyway, if the Ukraine could break away from the
moribund piece of shit that was the USSR without a war, and
to get Russia to agree to share the military hardware, why
couldn't Serbia?
There is absolutely no arguing the fact that all these
Balkan wars were started by populist Nationalist-Socialist
Serb politicians in order to deny their neighbours the
opportunity for self-determination.
And we have Serbia ONCE AGAIN poised on the brink of
starting the fifth war in the Balkans, this time against
Montenegro, and yet again a war they will humiliatingly lose
as the Serb dog-soldiers prove they are only good at
murdering the unarmed and not at actually fighting.
Sasa Aleksandric
Ferg wrote in message <7pd6fi$dte$1...@bomb.dynamite.com.au>...
> I'd say the media had had plenty of time to examine the
> conduct of the Serb dogs in the Balkans over the past decade
> before deciding to (correctly) cast them as the 'bad guys'.
If i remember well, "bad guys" label is ten years old. I did not see any
effort of "deciding" in the media, but i did see substantial effort of
labeling (just to mention picturing serbian victims as croats in the very
beginning of war in Croatia - for example).
> As opposed to Serbian "not-free media" which congratulates
> Serb criminals like Arkan for these crimes?
Arkan was never prised in Serbian media.
>No, important policy decisions were made on the basis of the
>massive and vicious criminal acts of the Serbs, which
>included kidnapping unarmed UN soldiers who were there to
>try to keep the peace.
>
>The Serbs decided to declare war on the UN, and they copped
>what they deserved for doing so.
I am just curious. Why is kidnapping of unarmed UN soldiers so much worse
then killing 2000 serbian civilians a few months ago? After all – UN
soldiers ended unharmed and free and serbian civilians ended 2m below the
surface. Serbs did not declare war on the UN. It was other way around. UN
declared war on Serbs (with enormous influence of USA) and Serbs took UN
soldiers as a shield. I admit – it was shooting in a foot. Still, things
have to be put in perspective. Bosnian serbs were betrayed in so many
agreements with west that only lives of west soldiers were good guaranty for
them. At the end, it is the fact. List of frauds made by west in last 10
years is to long.
>Certain unconvicing people have voiced unconvincing doubts
>without any evidence to back them up. Investigations into
>these doubts, widely reported in the media, were
>inconclusive, leaving us to conclude that in the absence of
>any proof to the contrary, we will assume that the culprits
>of these horrible crimes, true to character, were the Serbs.
>
For example – phrase “unconvincing people” include a French journalist who
won a case in Paris, claiming that those responsible for one of massacres
were muslims. And unreliable witnesses was president of France, minister of
foreign affairs and a few French generals, claiming that they new from the
beginning that muslims were responsible, but west simply wanted to lend a
few bombs on Serbs.
As examples of “inconclusive” investigations:
…The Russian dissenter is Col. Andrei Demurenko, an artillery officer who
commands the small Russian UN. peacekeeping force in Sarajevo. On August 29,
Demurenko announced that the probability of hitting a street less than
thirty feet wide from one or two miles away, "the distance to the nearest
Serb artillery positions," was "one to one million." Noting that no U.N.
artillery observers heard the distinctive high-pitched whistle of a mortar
shell prior to the detonation, he said he believed the fatal round had been
"fired from some technical weaponry other than mortars."
…The Canadian specialist, an officer with extensive service in Bosnia, said
in a telephone interview that the UN. report, which he'd seen, was "highly
suspect." He cited anomalies with the fuse" of the mortar shell recovered
from the marketplace crater. Unlike the fuses of four other shells that hit
Sarajevo that morning, this one, he said, "had not come from a mortar tube
at all." He added that he and fellow Canadian officers in Bosnia were
"convinced that the Muslim government dropped both the February 5, 1994, and
the August 28, 1995, mortar shells on the Sarajevo markets."…
On the other hand, this was very convincing and that report is only against
Serbs:
…General Smith's report was based on three hours of on-the-spot
investigation and covered only one page…
> So who massacred all the unarmed men after the fall of
> Vukovar?
>Is there any doubt as to the identities of the Serbs who
>massacred over 200 men after dragging them from their
>hospital beds?
No. But there is also no any doubt about identity identities of the Croats
who massacred over 150 men after dragging them from their hospital beds,
before fall of Vukovar. I do not say that crime is justified by other crime,
only that things need to be put in perspective.
>Is there any doubt as to the Serbian identity of the
>mass-murderers who set-up and ran the concentration camps in
>Bosnia?
This is a kind of writing that i call half-writing. There were no
concentration camps in Bosnia. Words "concentration camps" used in this
manner imply that they were death camps in a way that Nazi Germany invented.
No, they were plain prisoner camps or even only collection centers for
refugees as in a case of famous "THE EMACIATED MAN BEHIND THE BARBED WIRE"
film:
...
The photo has now been condemned by an expert witness to the UN War Crimes
Tribunal at The Hague, German journalist Thomas Deichmann who says that the
image of the emaciated Bosnian Muslim was created by camera angles and
editing and insists that the image is misleading and has fooled the world.
According to Deichmann, who has visited the Trnopolje camp numerous times,
said that the man was actually in a refugee camp from which he was free to
leave at any time. Deichmann further stated that: (1) there was no barbed
wire fence surrounding the Trnopolje camp, (2) the camp was a collection
center for refugees, not a prison, and (3) the refugees in the picture were
not inside a barbed wire enclosure. The barbed wire surrounded the news team
who were filming from inside a small enclosure next to the camp.
...
>If there is a slight doubt as to the specific identity of
>the mortar-murderers and child-killing snipers in Sarajevo,
>it certainly doesn't tally with the numerous interviews done
>with those Serb snipers wherein they boasted of the many
>muslim civilians they had murdered.
No, but it was not reserved for Serbian side. Muslim's snipers were killing
people on Sarajevo streets equaly deadly as Serb's snipers:
...
Objective observers in Sarajevo frequently describe the abhorrent activity
of snipers from both sides, but suspicions persist that the Muslims have
murdered their own people when the potential existed for instant
newsworthiness.
...
Anti-sniping activities conducted by the UN Protection Force (UNPROFOR) in
Sarajevo, in fact, constitute quite impressive operations. Teams which
perform this duty receive exceptional training from their armies and possess
state-of-the-art optical aids and equipment. Employing these capabilities,
the French recently decided to test over three years' worth of UN hunches
pertaining to this issue. Their investigation "definitively" (their words)
established the validity of UN suppositions that "some gunfire came from
(Bosniac) Government soldiers deliberately shooting at their own
civilians."8
>And anyway, if the Ukraine could break away from the
>moribund piece of shit that was the USSR without a war, and
>to get Russia to agree to share the military hardware, why
>couldn't Serbia?
Serbia was not allowed to do it peacefully. If you know so well situation in
former Yu then you will recall the famous documentary made by military spy
infiltrated in, now ruling party in Croatia - HDZ, before the war started.
Martin Spegelj, high-ranking official of that party described very clearly
they tactic for gaining independence of Yugoslavia. “You will find the name
of army officer. You will go to his flat. You will knock on his door and
when he opens you will kill him. Then you will enter his flat and kill
everybody inside, women, children - everybody. If officer is on duty, you
will take his family as hostages, demanding that he must go out of barrack.
Then he will kill him and his family.” Remember – it was a way before war
started. This film was shown on Serbian TV and after seeing it, we never
believed a word Croats said about peaceful means and other bullshit. Croats
tried to make us to believe that film was false, but few months ago I saw
them on TV talking that it was genuine.
The same applies to Bosnia. I heard an interview with Silajdzic (Izedbegovic
ministry at the time) a year ago, claiming that real war in Bosnia started
when his forces attacked Serbian police station on Ilidza (Serbian part of
Sarajevo). Besides – who broke Lisbon agreement? Serbs or muslims? Who
refused to talk with Miloshevich before war started?
Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia would have never got international recognition
without armed resistance. Theirs only interest in these wars was to have as
much dead people as possible. Without wars, they would have being forced to
negotiate with Serbs and they were without real arguments for that.
>There is absolutely no arguing the fact that all these
>Balkan wars were started by populist Nationalist-Socialist
>Serb politicians in order to deny their neighbours the
>opportunity for self-determination.
It is a picture made up by western propaganda agencies. Balkan wars started
by populist Nationalist-Socialist
politicians from Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia, in order to deny Serbs the
opportunity for self-determination. Also, Balkan wars were designed to
provoke disintegration of Yugoslavia and step-by-step changing of
international order.
Tony W. Frye
>
> > I'd say the media had had plenty of time to examine the
> > conduct of the Serb dogs in the Balkans over the past decade
> > before deciding to (correctly) cast them as the 'bad guys'.
>
> If i remember well, "bad guys" label is ten years old. I did not see any
> effort of "deciding" in the media, but i did see substantial effort of
> labeling (just to mention picturing serbian victims as croats in the very
> beginning of war in Croatia - for example).
>
> > As opposed to Serbian "not-free media" which congratulates
> > Serb criminals like Arkan for these crimes?
>
> Arkan was never prised in Serbian media.
>
> >No, important policy decisions were made on the basis of the
> >massive and vicious criminal acts of the Serbs, which
> >included kidnapping unarmed UN soldiers who were there to
> >try to keep the peace.
> >
> >The Serbs decided to declare war on the UN, and they copped
> >what they deserved for doing so.
>
> I am just curious. Why is kidnapping of unarmed UN soldiers so much worse
> then killing 2000 serbian civilians a few months ago?
That's just the point. I see no differnce between either one. I necessarily
equovocate them all, and tolerate no excuses for any of them. The problem with
you, Ferg, and Yuri is that you guys have picked sides and can't see beyond the
blinders of ethnic and political apologia.
> After all – UN
> soldiers ended unharmed and free and serbian civilians ended 2m below the
> surface. Serbs did not declare war on the UN. It was other way around. UN
> declared war on Serbs (with enormous influence of USA) and Serbs took UN
> soldiers as a shield. I admit – it was shooting in a foot. Still, things
> have to be put in perspective. Bosnian serbs were betrayed in so many
> agreements with west that only lives of west soldiers were good guaranty for
> them. At the end, it is the fact. List of frauds made by west in last 10
> years is to long.
So then by this same moral standard, bombing Yugoslavia was OK. After all, one
could rationalize their side (the Kosovar Albanians) as the victims and create
an excuse for killing their opponents. Those Bosnian Muslims had it coming at
Srebrenica. After all, look at what some of their grandparents might have done
during WWII. Those Krajina Serbs deserved it. Didn't their ethnic brethren
shell Vukovar? Belgrade deserves bombing because of Milosevic. Those UN
soldiers deserved to be kidnapped and terrorized. After all, isn't my group
history's victims? All I see in these NGs is excuse making among the most
favored killers of the partisans. It's disgusting. I haven't seen this type of
pathological dishonesty since the propaganda campaigns of WWI.
Tony W. Frye
> So, Tony, will you now apologise for attacking me in such a brutal way
> originally, and for slandering me by comparing me to the Nazis and
> Holocaust revisionists?
How incredulous. This from a guy who calls me a liar after accusing me of
never considering the Bosnian Muslims as possible marketplace bombers, even
though I clearly did. Then you have the gall to come back and dare to ask
for an apology after I compared your opinion-based "evidence" to the exact
methodology of holocaust revisionists, which you wrongly accused me of
calling you of a member or follower of the Institute for Historical Review.
> Let's put this whole thing into perspective. Right from the beginning,
> Western "free media" had condemned "the Serbs" for these crimes in one
> voice. No doubts were ever raised about who may have done these grisly
> deeds. As a result, important policy decisions were made on the basis of
> these massive vicious and racist propaganda campaigns. Only much later
> was it leaked that the identity of the perpetrators is far from clear.
>
> So why did you attack me for trying to set the record straight?
Attack you? Here, let's go over some of your previous quotes, so you won't
be able fidget your way out of this.
LIST OF YURI'S
AD HOMINEMS,
INSULTS, AND
"ATTACKS"
"You're disgusting."
"Listen, punk..."
"Get lost, idiot."
"...pissing contest..."
"What's the point of wasting time with someone who's obviously so biased and
dishonest as you?"
"...you moron...."
"Why do I have to spoon-feed an ignoramus like you?"
"No, idiot, I offered no opinions of people with a vested interest in a PR
line for their side."
"You're a liar."
"You're lying."
"You're too stupid."
"You're both stupid and ignorant."
"It will take too long to explain to a moron."
"You sound like a nice NATzO dupe."
"...this "country" exists only in the imagination of brainwashed dupes like
you."
"Here, dummy, perhaps you can accept this..."
"A Nazi like you should know all about mass murder. You're specialists in
this department."
etc., etc., etc.
You are the last person, next to maybe Ferg, with any credibility to be
coming into these NGs and asking another to apologize to you for "attacks."
Of course, these ad hominem-based posts also serve as excellent avoidances
on your part, perfectly understandable considering the ethnic nationalists
you support. If I were a ethnic partisan I wouldn't want to have to explain
away Srebrenica, either.
Alan
<37BA513A...@infinet.com>:
>...SNIP....
>> Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
>LIST OF YURI'S
>AD HOMINEMS,
>INSULTS, AND
>"ATTACKS"
>
>"You're disgusting."
>
>"Listen, punk..."
>
>"Get lost, idiot."
>
>"...pissing contest..."
>
>and dishonest as you?"
>
>
>"Why do I have to spoon-feed an ignoramus like you?"
>
>PR line for their side."
>
>"You're a liar."
>
>"You're lying."
>
>"You're too stupid."
>
>"You're both stupid and ignorant."
>
>"It will take too long to explain to a moron."
>
>"You sound like a nice NATzO dupe."
>
>like you."
>
>"Here, dummy, perhaps you can accept this..."
>
>"A Nazi like you should know all about mass murder. You're specialists
>in this department."
>
>etc., etc., etc.
Tony,
It is wrong to attack Yuri. He has got that rare ability of punctuating
every sentence with a personal insult. Those insults lack imagination, I
know, but they provide visual markers that help the reader quickly localise
his touching attempts at expressing a thought. Furthermore, Yuri tries very
hard to make his logorrhea understandable by us feeble minded zombies. The
fact that he occasionnaly succeeds at expressing an idea should also be put
to his credit: he then provides us with a unique insight to the thought
pattern of the nationalist Serbian thugs that have set fire to the Balkans.
The fact that he is not Serbian himself is encouraging for the future of
Serbia, though.
Alan
Ferg
----- Original Message -----
From: Sasa Aleksandric
Newsgroups:
alt.beograd,alt.nuke.europe,alt.nuke.the.USA,soc.culture.usa
,soc.culture.yugoslavia
Sent: Wednesday, 18 August 1999 15:09
Subject: Re: Meet the REAL Gen. Clark
>I am just curious. Why is kidnapping of unarmed UN soldiers
so much worse
>then killing 2000 serbian civilians a few months ago?
I don't know when you commie scum are going to wake up to
the fact that you've gone down the gurgler and your putrid
politics are dead and buried.
We didn't defeat the other Nazis (the Cherman ones) by
treating honourably with them, we tricked them and deceived
them and bombed the bejeesus out of the bastards until they
were kaputt.
The same thing has happened to the Serbs.
They are dogs that deserved every little bomb they got, and
they demonstrate this daily with their support for the man
who started all these wars in the Balkans and is about to
start another with Montenegro - Slobodan the Loser.
Normal people don't give a flying fuck about it being
"unfair" for Serb civilans to be labelled "bad" and bombed.
The point is it is their leaders that are committing the war
crimes and people get the leaders they deserve, so the Serbs
are ultimately just as bad as their war-criminal leaders and
therefore must suffer the consequences until they are
utterly defeated and renounce attacking their neighbours for
good.
Look at Croatia : They play by the rules, arrest war
criminals, and they are a thriving and successful country.
Just like Bosnia. And then there's Serbia : A country where
war criminals don't just go free, they are actively feted as
heroes.
Nope. I'm sorry. I'll not shed a tear for any Serb civilian
casualty for as long as they remain the enemy. And as long
as they commit horrible crimes and refuse to play by the
rules of civilisation, the Serbs will remain the nationalist
Socialist enemy that they are.
Even the Serbs must know that they have no future in this
world with their politics of hatred and cowardly killing.
Alan
>...SNIP....
>The same thing has happened to the Serbs.
>
>They are dogs that deserved every little bomb they got, and
>they demonstrate this daily with their support for the man
>who started all these wars in the Balkans and is about to
>start another with Montenegro - Slobodan the Loser.
>
>Normal people don't give a flying fuck about it being
>"unfair" for Serb civilans to be labelled "bad" and bombed.
"Normal people" despise racist attacks such as those. The Serbs have
suffered more than their share from the politics of their leadership. They
are deceited and have been polluted by a decade of intensive nationalist
propaganda. They will get rid of the thugs that represent them and hand
them to international justice. If not today, in a few months time.
"Normal people" feel sorrow for the Serb civilians that were killed under
Nato bombs and for those that are being killed by the very same people that
their army has savagely suppressed.
"Normal people" want to see Serbia turn the page, reject its suicidal
nationalist ideology and take its legitimate place in the international
community.
Your racist declarations are contributing at making that prospect a little
more difficult.
Alan
hector
:world with their politics of hatred and cowardly killing.
Ferg wrote in message <7pdrb7$f2h$1...@bomb.dynamite.com.au>...
:
:----- Original Message -----
:From: Sasa Aleksandric
:Newsgroups:
:alt.beograd,alt.nuke.europe,alt.nuke.the.USA,soc.culture.usa
:,soc.culture.yugoslavia
:Sent: Wednesday, 18 August 1999 15:09
:Subject: Re: Meet the REAL Gen. Clark
:
:
:>I am just curious. Why is kidnapping of unarmed UN soldiers
:so much worse
:>then killing 2000 serbian civilians a few months ago?
:
:I don't know when you commie scum are going to wake up to
:the fact that you've gone down the gurgler and your putrid
:politics are dead and buried.
:
:We didn't defeat the other Nazis (the Cherman ones) by
:treating honourably with them, we tricked them and deceived
:them and bombed the bejeesus out of the bastards until they
:were kaputt.
:
:The same thing has happened to the Serbs.
:
:They are dogs that deserved every little bomb they got, and
:they demonstrate this daily with their support for the man
:who started all these wars in the Balkans and is about to
:start another with Montenegro - Slobodan the Loser.
:
:Normal people don't give a flying fuck about it being
:"unfair" for Serb civilans to be labelled "bad" and bombed.
:The point is it is their leaders that are committing the war
:
:
Sasa Aleksandric
Tony W. Frye wrote in message <37BA53F1...@infinet.com>...
>> Sasa Aleksandric wrote:
>>
>> > I'd say the media had had plenty of time to examine the
>> > conduct of the Serb dogs in the Balkans over the past decade
>> > before deciding to (correctly) cast them as the 'bad guys'.
>>
>> If i remember well, "bad guys" label is ten years old. I did not see any
>> effort of "deciding" in the media, but i did see substantial effort of
>> labeling (just to mention picturing serbian victims as croats in the very
>> beginning of war in Croatia - for example).
>>
>> > As opposed to Serbian "not-free media" which congratulates
>> > Serb criminals like Arkan for these crimes?
>>
>> Arkan was never prised in Serbian media.
>>
>> >No, important policy decisions were made on the basis of the
>> >massive and vicious criminal acts of the Serbs, which
>> >included kidnapping unarmed UN soldiers who were there to
>> >try to keep the peace.
>> >
>> >The Serbs decided to declare war on the UN, and they copped
>> >what they deserved for doing so.
>>
>> I am just curious. Why is kidnapping of unarmed UN soldiers so much worse
>> then killing 2000 serbian civilians a few months ago?
>
necessarily
>equovocate them all, and tolerate no excuses for any of them. The problem
with
>you, Ferg, and Yuri is that you guys have picked sides and can't see beyond
the
>blinders of ethnic and political apologia.
>
>> soldiers ended unharmed and free and serbian civilians ended 2m below the
>> surface. Serbs did not declare war on the UN. It was other way around. UN
>> declared war on Serbs (with enormous influence of USA) and Serbs took UN
>> soldiers as a shield. I admit – it was shooting in a foot. Still, things
>> have to be put in perspective. Bosnian serbs were betrayed in so many
>> agreements with west that only lives of west soldiers were good guaranty
for
>> them. At the end, it is the fact. List of frauds made by west in last 10
>> years is to long.
>
one
>could rationalize their side (the Kosovar Albanians) as the victims and
create
>an excuse for killing their opponents. Those Bosnian Muslims had it coming
at
>Srebrenica. After all, look at what some of their grandparents might have
done
>during WWII. Those Krajina Serbs deserved it. Didn't their ethnic
brethren
>shell Vukovar? Belgrade deserves bombing because of Milosevic. Those UN
>soldiers deserved to be kidnapped and terrorized. After all, isn't my
group
>history's victims? All I see in these NGs is excuse making among the most
>favored killers of the partisans. It's disgusting. I haven't seen this
type of
>pathological dishonesty since the propaganda campaigns of WWI.
>
Did I say anything in favor of that action done by Bosnian Serbs? All your
rhetoric is aimed at wrong address. If you read that part of my post you
will find only a question: “Why is kidnapping of unarmed UN soldiers so much
worse then killing 2000 serbian civilians a few months ago?” Do you see
difference between kidnapping and killing? All examples you made were based
on killing people. Nobody of professional serb-haters cares about 2000
killed civilians (not only Serbs) in YU and all of them cry about those UN
soldiers who were, by the way, alive and healthy.
Point of my post is again: Things have to be put in perspective. Too many
bad and laying words were written about Serbs in general and I do not feel
need to add a few more. If you pull out actions of one side in a conflict
and criticize it for years you would have distorted picture. There is blame
on Serbian side, but not exclusively. There were 3 more parties: bosnian
muslims, croats and west. All 3 have their part in this nightmare and I
personally see the west as the biggest felon of all, if I may say so. Reason
is; they were able to prevent all this, but they made things even worse
instead. It has nothing to do with “history’s victims”, or “excuse making”,
only with perspective (not propaganda).
There is no excuse for killing people, but just read posts here. They cry
for more killing. If you give to one side right to do certain things, as
west did it regarding croats and muslims, then you have to do the same to
other side, or to nobody.
Sasa Aleksandric
Ferg wrote in message <7pdrb7$f2h$1...@bomb.dynamite.com.au>...
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Sasa Aleksandric
>Newsgroups:
>alt.beograd,alt.nuke.europe,alt.nuke.the.USA,soc.culture.usa
>,soc.culture.yugoslavia
>Sent: Wednesday, 18 August 1999 15:09
>Subject: Re: Meet the REAL Gen. Clark
>
>
>so much worse
>>then killing 2000 serbian civilians a few months ago?
>
>the fact that you've gone down the gurgler and your putrid
>politics are dead and buried.
>
>We didn't defeat the other Nazis (the Cherman ones) by
>treating honourably with them, we tricked them and deceived
To be honest, I did not really expect to get at least serial denial
regarding all things I wrote. I just hoped. What I have here is a war
pamphlet “join the army”. Ok, we can play this way. Just to remind you,
Republika Srbska exists, despite of all efforts of you comrades. Kosmet is
lost, but just temporarily. If Serbia had waited 100 years to regain it, it
will be able to wait 100 more. Therefore, we have right now long lasting
peace on the Balkans.
As for your remark: “…Look at Croatia : They play by the rules, arrest war
criminals, and they are a thriving and successful country. Just like Bosnia.
And then there's Serbia : A country where war criminals don't just go free,
they are actively feted as heroes…”, I have relatives in Croatia and know
all about your “pleasure dome” and war criminals. You are playing by the
rules only because you have that threat with sanctions over your head, and
you carefully choose what rule to use. Fair elections, maybe? Or arm
smuggling? Or private property? Or free media? Or language invention? Do you
remember Zagreb’s mayor? Or… just name it.
>Nope. I'm sorry. I'll not shed a tear for any Serb civilian
>casualty for as long as they remain the enemy. And as long
>as they commit horrible crimes and refuse to play by the
>rules of civilisation, the Serbs will remain the nationalist
>Socialist enemy that they are.
It is very interesting switch of history. The only national-socialists I
know on Balkan Peninsula were Ustashe. Regarding horrible crimes, I do not
see any difference between Croats, Serbs and muslims. As for rules of
civilization, what civilization? Western, maybe? Those who destroyed
refineries and poured uranium bombs? Very good role model, I must say. Rules
of power, this is a better description.
Tony W. Frye
Sasa Aleksandric wrote:
>
> Tony W. Frye wrote in message <37BA53F1...@infinet.com>...
> >> Sasa Aleksandric wrote:
> >>
> >> > I'd say the media had had plenty of time to examine the
> >> > conduct of the Serb dogs in the Balkans over the past decade
> >> > before deciding to (correctly) cast them as the 'bad guys'.
> >>
> >> If i remember well, "bad guys" label is ten years old. I did not see any
> >> effort of "deciding" in the media, but i did see substantial effort of
> >> labeling (just to mention picturing serbian victims as croats in the very
> >> beginning of war in Croatia - for example).
> >>
> >> > As opposed to Serbian "not-free media" which congratulates
> >> > Serb criminals like Arkan for these crimes?
> >>
> >> Arkan was never prised in Serbian media.
> >>
> >> >No, important policy decisions were made on the basis of the
> >> >massive and vicious criminal acts of the Serbs, which
> >> >included kidnapping unarmed UN soldiers who were there to
> >> >try to keep the peace.
> >> >
> >> >The Serbs decided to declare war on the UN, and they copped
> >> >what they deserved for doing so.
> >>
> >> I am just curious. Why is kidnapping of unarmed UN soldiers so much worse
> >> then killing 2000 serbian civilians a few months ago?
> >
> >That's just the point. I see no differnce between either one. I
> necessarily
> >equovocate them all, and tolerate no excuses for any of them. The problem
> with
> >you, Ferg, and Yuri is that you guys have picked sides and can't see beyond
> the
> >blinders of ethnic and political apologia.
> >
> >> After all – UN
> >> soldiers ended unharmed and free and serbian civilians ended 2m below the
> >> surface. Serbs did not declare war on the UN. It was other way around. UN
> >> declared war on Serbs (with enormous influence of USA) and Serbs took UN
> >> soldiers as a shield. I admit – it was shooting in a foot. Still, things
> >> have to be put in perspective. Bosnian serbs were betrayed in so many
> >> agreements with west that only lives of west soldiers were good guaranty
> for
> >> them. At the end, it is the fact. List of frauds made by west in last 10
> >> years is to long.
> >
And I've run into countless number of apologists who say the same thing
(everybody criticizes my group, so I'm not going to) while denying their
side has ever done anything wrong, laying the blame on the others, or
even claiming that all of their opponents deaths were really
self-inflicted. I've run into Serb apologists who think that Srebrenica
was perpetrated by fundamentalist Muslims, and Croat apologists who say
that the Serbs willingly left the Krajina during Operation Storm.
There's no perspective in any of this. That's delusion. When you start
countering the other side with rationalizations for yours (after all,
isn't bombing and killing 2,000 Serbs any worse than the thousands of
Albanians who were killed and hundreds of thousands who were kicked out
of Kosovo?), that's not putting things into perspective, but exculpating
the most favored group of the apologist.
> If you pull out actions of one side in a conflict
> and criticize it for years you would have distorted picture. There is blame
> on Serbian side, but not exclusively. There were 3 more parties: bosnian
> muslims, croats and west. All 3 have their part in this nightmare and I
> personally see the west as the biggest felon of all, if I may say so. Reason
> is; they were able to prevent all this, but they made things even worse
> instead. It has nothing to do with “history’s victims”, or “excuse making”,
> only with perspective (not propaganda).
> There is no excuse for killing people, but just read posts here. They cry
> for more killing. If you give to one side right to do certain things, as
> west did it regarding croats and muslims, then you have to do the same to
> other side, or to nobody.
I say nobody.
Ferg
Sasa Aleksandric <aa...@idirect.com> wrote in message
news:37bb...@nemo.idirect.com...
> Did I say anything in favor of that action done by Bosnian
Serbs? All your
> rhetoric is aimed at wrong address. If you read that part
of my post you
> will find only a question: "Why is kidnapping of unarmed
UN soldiers so much
> worse then killing 2000 serbian civilians a few months
ago?" Do you see
> difference between kidnapping and killing?
Yes, the UN troops were there, unarmed, to try to keep the
peace.
The Serbs didn't want peace.
They still don't want peace, that's why they're about to
start their fifth war against Montenegro this time.
So, when the Serbs make it clear they don't want peace, and
they attack western peacekeepers, they are saying loud an
clear "WE ARE THE ENEMY, COME AND GET US".
So that's what NATO did. Any civilian casualties are a
direct result of Serb action, and only Serbia can be blamed
for starting these wars.
> All examples you made were based
> on killing people. Nobody of professional serb-haters
cares about 2000
> killed civilians (not only Serbs) in YU and all of them
cry about those UN
> soldiers who were, by the way, alive and healthy.
Well, Serbia lost each of these wars they started. And many
UN troops were killed by them anyway - especially the French
suffered. If you don't want casualties, don't start wars,
and don't expect the people you make enemies of to be sorry
for your casualties caused by your own despicable
nationalist socialist policies.
> Point of my post is again: Things have to be put in
perspective. Too many
> bad and laying words were written about Serbs in general
and I do not feel
Unfortunately, free media writes words and tells stories.
If the Serbs happen to give inspiration to bad words and bad
stories, this is not the fault of the media, but it is the
fault of the Serbs with their policies of deliberate murder
and torture and displacement of unarmed civilians.
> need to add a few more. If you pull out actions of one
side in a conflict
> and criticize it for years you would have distorted
picture. There is blame
> on Serbian side, but not exclusively. There were 3 more
parties: bosnian
> muslims, croats and west. All 3 have their part in this
nightmare and I
> personally see the west as the biggest felon of all, if I
may say so.
Well, this is why the Serbs and their ex-commie friends are
our enemies.
You see US as the worst felons in the Balkan wars started by
YOU? Please! Tell me you're joking!
> Reason
> is; they were able to prevent all this, but they made
things even worse
So, Serbia starts some wars, the west sends some token
peace-keeping forces in, the Serbs attack the peace-keepers
and refuse to come to a peaceful political solution, but it
is the west's fault for making things worse?
You should remove your pointy communist head from your arse
before attempting to have ideas.
> instead. It has nothing to do with "history's victims", or
"excuse making",
> only with perspective (not propaganda).
Yes, Serbia lost the propaganda war as well.
It's easy to win a propaganda war when you are the GOOD
GUYS. Try it next time.
> There is no excuse for killing people, but just read posts
here.
THERE IS. When the nazis from Belgrade come into your
country and start murdering the children and raping the
women, there is EVERY excuse for rising up against them and
KILLING them.
When the Nazis from Belgrade do this same thing for 10
years, it is fair for the west to intervene and drop bombs
on the Serb Nazi criminals.
Ferg
Tony W. Frye <sa...@infinet.com> wrote in message
news:37BB94C5...@infinet.com...
> I've run into Serb apologists who think that Srebrenica
> was perpetrated by fundamentalist Muslims, and Croat
apologists who say
> that the Serbs willingly left the Krajina during Operation
Storm.
> There's no perspective in any of this.
No, you should add perspective and point out that 80,000
serbs fled during Operation storm, a croatian military
offensive to retake land illegally occupied by the Serbs and
which only lasted less than three weeks.
Compare that with the deliberate policy of concentrating
Croats in camps for four years just over the border and the
eviction of about 400,000 of them by the Serbs during a
concerted and long-term campaign of ethnic-cleansing.
The point is, for every warcrime committed by the Bosnians
or the Kosovars, or the Croats, there are 10 or 20 warcrimes
committed by the Serbs. That is their policy and it is their
way and that is why their only friends are those other
golbal misfits - the Russians.
Alan
of each other's needs and rights, recognition of one's own crimes and
mistakes, negociations for compromises capable of synthetising
conflicting needs and rights. A win-win issue to those conflicts is an
issue that prevents anyone from chanting victory and that enables
everyone to have access to living conditions necessary for a decent and
happy life.
All these nationalist warmongers poisonning their frustrated people with
pseudo -historical and pseudo-ethnological myths are directly responsible
for the current mess. The answer to nationalist agressivity is not an
opposite nationalist agressivity. A firm stand for mutual respect,
pluralism and tolerance is the answer.
That stand may need to be strong, faithful to the premises that led WWII
allies to build the United Nations on the foundations of their war
against nazism and fascism, the extreme forms of nationalism of the time.
The UN is not neutral towards bellicist nationalism: the UN is a concept
and an organisation designed "to ensure, by the acceptance of principles
and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save
in the common interest." It is good that it is currently fighting that
battle, despite its errors, despite undue latencies, despite powerful
manoeuvres aiming at emasculating it and parallel manoeuvres aiming at
instrumentising it. It needs everyone's support. It needs citizens
scrutinity. It commands universal respect. It needs more force, as today's
situation in Kosovo unfortunately shows once again. And it also needs
constructive criticism.
Alan
sa...@infinet.com (Tony W. Frye) wrote in
Tony W. Frye
>
> > I've run into Serb apologists who think that Srebrenica
> > was perpetrated by fundamentalist Muslims, and Croat
> apologists who say
> > that the Serbs willingly left the Krajina during Operation
> Storm.
> > There's no perspective in any of this.
>
> serbs fled during Operation storm, a croatian military
> offensive to retake land illegally occupied by the Serbs and
> which only lasted less than three weeks.
By the UN's count, over a quarter million Serbs were ethnically cleansed
from the Krajina. These people were not illegally occupying anything,
and had claims there going back centuries. The reason why the campaign
lasted three weeks (killing over a thousand Serb civilians, by the way)
was because there was absolutely no JNA protection, which discounts this
myth that the Krajina was being illegally occupied.
> Compare that with the deliberate policy of concentrating
> Croats in camps for four years just over the border and the
> eviction of about 400,000 of them by the Serbs during a
> concerted and long-term campaign of ethnic-cleansing.
As opposed to quick campaign of ethnic cleansing? So, if I break into
your house and kick you out in 10 minutes, that's OK, but if I break in
and hang around for awhile before kicking you out then that's
deliberate.
> The point is, for every warcrime committed by the Bosnians
> or the Kosovars, or the Croats, there are 10 or 20 warcrimes
> committed by the Serbs. That is their policy and it is their
> way and that is why their only friends are those other
> golbal misfits - the Russians.
I'm not so sure about that. It's tough to look at the conduct of the
Croats this past decade and see anything worse than what Milosevic has
done with Serbia. The only difference was that the Croats were smart
enough to ally themselves with the US so when your guys went on your
campaign of terror you could make sure no one at NATO would lose their
temper and bomb Zagreb.
M.Kovac
>So that's what NATO did. Any civilian casualties are a
>direct result of Serb action, and only Serbia can be blamed
>for starting these wars.
Huh? _Some_ civilian casualties in Kosovo are certainly a direct result of
Serb action
(or rather Yugoslav action, since not all VJ, MUP and paras were of Serb
nationality), namely those who were killed by Yugoslav forces and
irregulars. Some casualties in Kosovo are also very likely an _indirect_
result of "Serb action", namely those reffered by NATO as collateral damage.
As for Serbia proper, civilian casualties can only be an _indirect_ result
of "Serb action" there were no Yugoslav citizens flying NATO aircraft, as it
is well known. And of course _all_ sides _can_ be liable for certain
deaths. There is no such thing as preemted innocence or guilt! As a matter
of fact the principle of _proportionality_ is the basis of all legal
systems, let us all hope we see it served in this case! But most of all : it
is not up to you to decide who's guilty and who's not - leave that to the
professionals from the IWCT.
M.Kovac
Yuri Kuchinsky
:
: Yuri Kuchinsky <yu...@mail.trends.ca> wrote in message
: news:7pc84n$1uh2$9...@hub.org...
: >
: > So, Tony, will you now apologise for attacking me in such
: a brutal way
: > originally, and for slandering me by comparing me to the
: Nazis and
: > Holocaust revisionists?
: > Let's put this whole thing into perspective. Right from
: the beginning,
: > Western "free media" had condemned "the Serbs" for these
: crimes in one
: > voice. No doubts were ever raised about who may have done
: these grisly
: > deeds.
: Liar. As you yourself have reported here, some people have
: indeed raised unsubstantiated doubts over the commisssion of
: these crimes.
So were those isolated articles influential on policy-makers?
: > As a result, important policy decisions were made on the
: basis of
: > these massive vicious and racist propaganda campaigns.
:
: No, important policy decisions were made on the basis of the
: massive and vicious criminal acts of the Serbs,
You're lying.
: > Only much later
: > was it leaked that the identity of the perpetrators is far
: from clear.
:
: Certain unconvicing people have voiced unconvincing doubts
: without any evidence to back them up.
You're lying.
Yuri.
"The real winners, then, are Clinton and Blair and their coteries, and
militarist factions and weapons makers everywhere. ... The stocks of
Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, and their military contractor comrades are
moving up smartly in parallel with the rise in the U.S. military budget;
and across the globe military expenditures are expected to soar. The
NATO victory has shown non-NATO countries that international law no
longer protects them, and the rush is on to seriously upgrade weapons
systems (including the cheaper chemical and biological weapons) to
prevent similar "humanitarian intervention" by the great powers
elsewhere. This renewed arms race, along with smashed countries and
greater instability in the Balkans, are the major legacies of the NATO
war." -- (From VICTORY FOR WHOM? by Edward S. Herman)
Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku