Macedonists loosing it after the sound defeat in national TV debate of their puppet.
Nikolay Sarmadzhiev
Bulgarians in RM.
Two major blows to their cause
1. Radko won in Strasburg and now is legal in Maceodnia.
2. Ljubco made a show from Pasko Kusmanov on A2 and even normal
macedonian citizens started to see how shallow is "macedonian" nation
and the quest for antiquity roots. The uproar in the forums of
official TV and even teh comments from Grujo, show that at least some
people can think and some one within RM is trying to get them back to
common sense.
http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=110212
BTW Ljubco Georgievski simply decimate all the arguments of official
Macedonist Government and even did not agree Samuil is "Macedonian"
king, nor that VMRO was Macedonian (ethnic) organization when was
"cornered" by Panko. Now the damage control is all over.
The debate can be found on the youtube, at some places with English
subtitles.
++
Lubcho is a Bulgarian citizen now, am I right?
Spirit of Truth
"++" <galj...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f89a210e-bc69-436e...@r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
...................................................................................................
...................................................................................................
You have nothing to do with the Balkans, Schneider, am I right?
Spirit of Truth
Nikolay Sarmadzhiev
Yes, he is openly Macedonian-Bulgarian, thats correct.
Galia it will be very interesting for you to read the comments from A1
below the article, they will tell you a lot for the shame and
embarrassment of the ordinary people their for the radiculous claims
of "Alexandar" and Anticqization of Macedonia. Also a lot more
Bulgarian Macedonians are coming on the surfaces.
I do read from time to time A1 and some other main news outlets forums
and even that the censura is on high alert more and more Bulgarian-
Macedonian are there and more and more people seems to be eager to the
"possibility" that their roots are Bulgarian indeed. Its suprisingly
to me that most of them do not even know that Bulgarian reawakening
started in present day Macedonia by locals as well, but in the era of
Internet ....
ADR
Nikolay,
This is quite interesting, indeed, but I wonder if you can post a link
to it in English
It would be appreciated.
Nikolay Sarmadzhiev
Only parts of it :
Unfortunately the translation is not very good but ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSPPRoNIdfg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjRyrzw5cLc&feature=related
and etc ...
ADR
Thanks, these links were adequate. Unfortunately, they simply confirm
my point of view that the process of "Macedoniazation" of an entire
population is ongoing with a substantial state support and that there
is huge section of the population that believes that they are
descended from the ancient Macedonians. The person arguing the
opposite point was quite circumspect and very polite and he noted that
the state views are not opposed on the mass media. He was just a
"voice in the wilderness".
In fact, this interview cemented my views that we have reached a point
at which FYROM would be incapable of any compromise because such
compromise would undermine its whole reason de ettre. Yes, there are
some courageous voices occassionally, but even he noted the
"seductiveness" of the story presented and the racist undertones of
the official debate.
My feeling is that he would not change any minds. Only a catastrophe
is now capable of resetting the thinking in FYROM, nothing else. The
recent talks failed again and they will continue failing until there
is a generational change in FYROM or until this state dissovlves,
whatever comes first.
Nikolay Sarmadzhiev
>
> > and etc ...
>
> Thanks, these links were adequate. Unfortunately, they simply confirm
> my point of view that the process of "Macedoniazation" of an entire
> population is ongoing with a substantial state support and that there
> is huge section of the population that believes that they are
> descended from the ancient Macedonians. The person arguing the
> opposite point was quite circumspect and very polite and he noted that
> the state views are not opposed on the mass media. He was just a
> "voice in the wilderness".
>
> In fact, this interview cemented my views that we have reached a point
> at which FYROM would be incapable of any compromise because such
> compromise would undermine its whole reason de ettre. Yes, there are
> some courageous voices occassionally, but even he noted the
> "seductiveness" of the story presented and the racist undertones of
> the official debate.
>
> My feeling is that he would not change any minds. Only a catastrophe
> is now capable of resetting the thinking in FYROM, nothing else. The
> recent talks failed again and they will continue failing until there
> is a generational change in FYROM or until this state dissovlves,
> whatever comes first.
The person is
former prime minister Ljubcho Georgievski. He is Bulgarian Citizen
now, and self declare Bulgarian.
A lot of the comments in the A1 forum (the TV) was in tact with his
point of view. Of course the UDBA guys and their
remarks that Bulgarian should not comment RM history and why they even
gave him tribuna to express his views are there,
but again a lot of support for him on the forums.
Do not forget, ~100 000 Macedonians are with Bulgarian Citizenship
already or in the process of obtaining one and those are conservative
numbers.
and all this while the terror against all Bulgarian and open
Bulgarians is renewed.
ERIC
news:7800cfca-af06-4f1f...@l28g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
Eric wrote
Overall, I have to agree with Anastassi's interpretation and forecast of the
situation.
In my opinion, after these latest round of talks collapse, the clearest (and
only?) avenue for Greece to pursue would be a forceful and absolutely
unambigious statement to Skopje, made repeatedly in Greek, Albanian,
Bulgarian and makedonski that there is and will never be any inclusion of
the FYRoM into the EU or NATO without a name compromise. Athens should
then utilize all diplomatic methods ( cessation visa issuances) and economic
sanctions available (slowly increasing economic embargo actions) against
that state and await the FYRoM's Albanian population to begin to bear
pressure, in whatever form they decide is best, against their government to
change its position. Show and actively support the FYRoM's Albanian
population and, at the same time, hire and fully utilize the services
Madison Avenue's best advertisers to present the Greek message to the FYRoM
and to the rest of the EU.
Regards
Eric
ADR
> Eric wrote
> Overall, I have to agree with Anastassi's interpretation and forecast of the
> situation.
> In my opinion, after these latest round of talks collapse, the clearest (and
> only?) avenue for Greece to pursue would be a forceful and absolutely
> unambigious statement to Skopje, made repeatedly in Greek, Albanian,
> Bulgarian and makedonski that there is and will never be any inclusion of
> the FYRoM into the EU or NATO without a name compromise. Athens should
> then utilize all diplomatic methods ( cessation visa issuances) and economic
> sanctions available (slowly increasing economic embargo actions) against
> that state and await the FYRoM's Albanian population to begin to bear
> pressure, in whatever form they decide is best, against their government to
> change its position. Show and actively support the FYRoM's Albanian
> population and, at the same time, hire and fully utilize the services
> Madison Avenue's best advertisers to present the Greek message to the FYRoM
> and to the rest of the EU.
I think that what needs to be done by Greece is a full diplomatic
warfare. But Greece needs to spend some money running PR campaigns in
the US and EU otherwise we may be portrayed as aggressors. I am far
more interested in Greece providing information to the citizens of
FYROM and possibly direct assistance to those who may be hurt by
potential embargoes.
In any case, the present and future Greek governments are soon running
out of options. The outrageous nationalism that has been unleashed in
FYROM is now endangering the peace and I am literal on this. When one
unleashes the dogs of nationalism, everything can follow. When you
have now at least a million people convinced that they are ancient
Macedonians and Greece is the occupier of Macedonia, what would follow
would be ugly...at minimum. Gruevski has crossed a line that other
governments of FYROM had the good sense not to cross. But it is more
incidious than this. That there are lots of historians in FYROM and
much of the academic establishment that would subscribe to Gruevski's
and Macedonist stupidities and over the top racism is not only
worrying, it is alarming. It is one thing for these positions to be
advocated by a punk in Australia and another to be espoused by the
academic establishment of a country.
Let's not make a mistake here. We are at war. And a war that we will
have to fight in a smart way. So far, we have not fought very well.
We got to do much better
Nikolay Sarmadzhiev
Some how I think you over dramatize it.
All of my friends that are coming back from Macedonia, speak that
population is getting more and more aware of Bulgarian origins,
The Gruevski (Belgrade former aparachik) stand and over all "egejski"
stand is the last possible line of defense of Macedonism. And its thin
one, undefendable as well.
ADR
Nikolay, I hope that you are right, but the information from other
channels appears contradictory. I would say that it is probably true
that a number of citizens of FYROM may be discovering their Bulgarian
past, but their numbers are small (probably where they were during the
Yugoslavia period, when they were suppressed). You should not
underestimate the power of the modern state to impose certain
thinking, especially when independent media are not too much in
evidence. The fact that the Gruevski supported Ivanov won the
elections (and rather easily may I add) should make you aware that you
should not regard the current situation in FYROM through the rose-
colored glasses. In any case, Greece can only deal with the
government of FYROM, not its opposition. And there is no indication
whatsoever that this party is anywhere near in losing control in
FYROM. If anything, quite the opposite.
ERIC
"ADR" <aret...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4cbe54de-3167-4c58...@z4g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Eric wrote
We have an extremely large, well educated and articulate Greek diasporic
population as clearly evidenced, most recently for example, by the letter
sent to Obama's administration a month or so ago. I can't for the life of me
understand why this type of effort isn't done much more frequently. I am
quite sincere when I reiterate that the academic and intellectual depth of
such groups coupled with and directed by a first class US ad agency
directing their product to the EU and English speaking world audiences would
put this makedonski generated idiocy in the garbage bin of the ridiculous in
very short order.
The Albanian KLA utilized the services of Saatchi and Saatchi for North
American consumption with devasatingly effectiveness.
After these current name talks fail, do you think that an economic embargo
similar to the one used against the FYRoM in the early 1990's should be
restarted?
ADR
> "ADR" <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Unlikely. Embargoes are really acts of war and we probably should not
got there. This does not mean that one cannot have an "unofficial"
embargo. The state may "divest" from companies that do business in
FYROM, limit substantially any cross-border crossings and engage in
the diplomatic isolation of FYROM. If we want to have nothing to do
with this statelet, we need to prove to the world.
I disagree with you on the diaspora. Yes, there is a certain depth,
but without a good PR agency coordinating its activities it is not
going to get much coverage. And the government so far has failed to
do this.
Krater Makedonski
On Jun 24, 9:06 pm, "++" <galja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 24, 5:06 pm, Nikolay Sarmadzhiev <nikola...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > A Macedonist government and UDBA escalate the repressions on open
> > Bulgarians in RM.
>
> > Two major blows to their cause
> > 1. Radko won in Strasburg and now is legal in Maceodnia.
The case was not even defended by Macedonia. "Radko" is a group of a handful
of nitwit-bugaromani funded by Bulgaromania.
> > 2. Ljubco made a show from Pasko Kusmanov on A2 and even normal
> > macedonian citizens started to see how shallow is "macedonian" nation
> > and the quest for antiquity roots.
You either have been dreaming or have very little understanding of the
dialogue to which you refer. From what I saw, both the bugaroman Ljubcho and
Kuzman appeared to have as much "education" in history as an elementary
school pupil. And both of them - NOT SURPRISINGLY - are indoctrinated
"Slavs".
The uproar in the forums of
> > official TV and even teh comments from Grujo, show that at least some
> > people can think and some one within RM is trying to get them back to
> > common sense.
>
> >http://www.a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=110212
>
> > BTW Ljubco Georgievski simply decimate all the arguments of official
> > Macedonist Government and even did not agree Samuil is "Macedonian"
> > king, nor that VMRO was Macedonian (ethnic) organization when was
> > "cornered" by Panko. Now the damage control is all over.
Sweat dreams, bugaroman.
>
> > The debate can be found on the youtube, at some places with English
> > subtitles.
>
> Lubcho is a Bulgarian citizen now, am I right?
-------------------------------------------------
Yes, he is openly Macedonian-Bulgarian, thats correct.
-----------------------------------------------------
NO, bugaroman. Unfortunately he is NOT openly identifying as a "Bulga(ian)".
But we know that he is a BUGAROMAN - from his collective behaviour as former
leader of VMRO-DPMNE.
On another TV show (Kanal 5), when asked if he possessed a "Bulgar(ian)"
passport he did not answer specifically, saying that it (the alleged
passport) would be his "golden joker" if/when he attempts to enter high
level politics again after 15 years. I guess he is dreaming about Macedonia
becoming part of a "San Stefano Bulgaromania". For some (like yourself and
Ljubcho) pigs do fly. He, he, he... Now that he has gone openly with his
100% "slav" propaganda from "HellAss"/Bulgaromania, even those Macedonians
who still did not believe that he was/is an anti Macedonian mole - employee
of the "HellAss"-Bulgaromania alliance, have now seen him for what he
was/is - a Macedonian traitor. "HellAss" and Bulgaromania fearing the rapid
acceptance by the Macedonians of their ancient history, denied to them by
the (jugo)communists and the popularity of the current Macedonian government
in its resolve in respect of the insane "name dispute" with "HellAss", have
MISTAKENLY employed the services of this incompetent idiot in order to
thwart the popularity of the government, but instead they have done the
reverse and have increased the resolve of the Macedonians against the absurd
"HellAss" propaganda and demands in the so called "name dispute", an insane
"dispute" that is purely of unilateral nature (created by "HellAss").
-----------------------------------------------------------
Galia it will be very interesting for you to read the comments from A1
below the article, they will tell you a lot for the shame and
embarrassment of the ordinary people their for the radiculous claims
of "Alexandar" and Anticqization of Macedonia. Also a lot more
Bulgarian Macedonians are coming on the surfaces.
I do read from time to time A1 and some other main news outlets forums
and even that the censura is on high alert more and more Bulgarian-
Macedonian are there and more and more people seems to be eager to the
"possibility" that their roots are Bulgarian indeed. Its suprisingly
to me that most of them do not even know that Bulgarian reawakening
started in present day Macedonia by locals as well, but in the era of
Internet ....
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Bulgaria" is a state where 90% of its population are not of Bulgarian
stock, where a very small percentage of TRUE Bulgar(ian)s can be found only
in its ethnic minorities. This is a country of BULGAROMANI - artificial
"Bulgar(ian)s". Thus the apt name for "Bulgaria" should be BULGAROMANIA.
ADR
Hmmmm....since you speak their language, you should know. And how did
you deduce that the 90% of Bulgaria are not Bulgarians? Did you run a
DNA analysis??? You cute little racist you!!!!
Nikolay Sarmadzhiev
Zhive,
Check who is P. Kusman, what is his official designation and the
office he holds, before saying he is NOT educated.
Simply the position is UNdefendable and he is smart enough to knows
it.
Also I saw the Kanal 5 interview, and of course I saw Lubjcho passport
and registration in Blagoevgrad.
He also has enough articles about "All our revolutionaries were
Bulgarians" from early 1990's
As far as the forum goes,
please see how many people there were ashamed from Official line
toward "anticvization".
As for u, search for the "Macedonian from old Bulgarian capital Ohrid"
comment on Kanal 5 on youtube, to see even more "non" exisating
Bulgarians from RM
Lastly,
I realize its hard for u to accept that modern Bulgarian nation
started from present days Macedonia. Never the less thats history and
you can change it, and as we see more and more people in RM realize
that.
Spirit of Truth
"Krater Makedonski" <kra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4a49d207$0$25358$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Do not seek to look for Bulgarian any futher than Fyrom, Bulgar.
You only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority are simply
West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia' anything:
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
And here:
Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......
Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).
And here:
For fair use only.
" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...
...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.
... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...
Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.
The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"
Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV
This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,
and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!