Macedonia or Makedonija
Pavel Makedonski
As a matter of fact the Greeks ...de facto... recognized the name of their
Northern neighbour as including the term ...Macedonia... . Let us
remember, that when in 1990 was declared the independence of the
Republic of Macedonia from Yugoslavia, the Greeks
imposed a full embargo on the trafic from Solun/Thessaloniki to Skopje
(removed after that because of the lack of success - the Macedonian
transport went through the Bulgarian port of Burgas)
and because of their intrigues and by theit insistance the new state was
accepted in the United Nationa and the Council of Europe as FYROM -
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. But it is evident for everybody,
that this republic is not nowadays Yugoslav, and also it is not a
former, but it is existing really. Because of this, the words "former" and
"Yugoslav" are without any meaning applied to the Republic of
Macedonia. They are remains of the past. But if we look on the Greek
proposition for the U. N. and the C. E. - there is the name "Macedonia"
in it for everybody who can read. Because of this, we can consider,
that ...de facto... Greeks had recognized the name Macedonia for the
Republic of Macedonia. But on the other hand, this name is written
on the native language of the people there as Makedonija. Because of
this, maybe it will be at least not confusing to accept the name
Makedonija for the state with capital Skopje, and the name Macedonia
for the Greek province. Let think positively - there exists a state which
calls itself Makedonija (the people there can be Scandinavian, Zulusian,
or as you like, but they call themselves Makedonijans). Then the
most reasonable way to call the state is Makedonija, and the people
there Makedonijans - in contrast with the Greek Macedonians from the
Greek province of Macedonia.
Regards: Pavel Makedonski
George S. Tsapanos
>Then the
>most reasonable way to call the state is Makedonija, and the people
>there Makedonijans - in contrast with the Greek Macedonians from the
>Greek province of Macedonia.
>Regards: Pavel Makedonski>
Since the SKOPIANS clearly are not Makedonians, they must be PATHETIC
individuals WITHOUT any kinf of an ETHNIC pride.
I really feel more sorry for them than anything else.
Beggers they were, beggers will be.
Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
Nicolas
We're not interested. We know the facts.
Go sell your wares where they will believe you.
Nicolas
Anastassios Retzios
This is essentially the proposal of the Conflict Resolution Group.
Even if we accept the proposition as it stands, it is unlikely that
FYROM will do so because of its other provisions. The most important
other provision is that FYROM accepts the Hellenic character of
ancient Macedonia and amends its state pronouncements and school texts
to indicate so to the satisfaction of Greece. I, somehow, do not
think that this will ever be acceptable to enough of the political
establishment in FYROM to even be a starter. Do you think that it
will fly?
If we assume that the essence of the proposal is accepted and FYROM
declares that the current population of this state has nothing to do
with ancient Macedonia, then why would FYROM have any difficulty in
accepting a name such as "Republic of Northern Macedonia" without
making such a declaration?
I have said it a thousand times **** and not a single reply was
forthcoming ****, that accepting a differentiated name, FYROM would be
making a gesture of good faith to the citizens of Greek Macedonia
instead of bowing to Greek pressure. Let us be blant. FYROM
certainly understands that its choice of a name directly antagonizes
the population of Greek Macedonia. Why pursue such antagonism against
such a numerous Macedonian population? I wonder if this was ever
discussed in Skopje. I cannot believe that the Skopje political
establishment is so unsophisticated as not to understand the
implications of its actions on Greek Macedonians, the constituency
that it should be more than interested in befriending. FYROM is
hardly going to interact with the rest of Greece. It is going to
interact in terms of trade with Greek Macedonia which has possibly
about 10-20x the product of FYROM. Is there any reason that one can
possibly think of why FYROM is interested in restarting the Greek -
Slavic contest that dates from the 19th century? Isn't it time to
bury this silly issue?
ADR
June R Harton
"Pavel Makedonski" <pavelma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c3d429fb.02030...@posting.google.com...
Bizarre interpretation, laddie.
FYROM has no current name, whether you like it or not. It is described
as what it was and is so described in the present. In future it shall
be what it is, Macedonian nothing.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
......The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
It sure is. There shall be nothing Macedonian in it's name.
Pavel Makedonski
> pavelmakedonski wrote:
> >(PM)Then the
> >there Makedonijans - in contrast with the Greek Macedonians from the
> >Greek province of Macedonia.
> >Regards: Pavel Makedonski>
>
> individuals WITHOUT any kinf of an ETHNIC pride.
> I really feel more sorry for them than anything else.
> Beggers they were, beggers will be.
> Regards to all ..................L.
> "Vlachs, The Autochthonous
> Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
opinion on the Makes. It is well known, but who cares... We have a
proverb: "Dogs are barking, but the caravan is going by." The central
point of my posting was to show, that the Greek position on the name
question was losing from the beginning - with the Greek proposition
"Former Yugoslav Republic of MACEDONIA" they ... de facto ...
recognized the word "MACEDONIA" included in the name for the new
independent state with capital Skopje. And today if you go to Skopje
and to the Greek embassy there, you can read: "Embassy of the
Hellenic Republic in the FYROM" - the last letter stays for MACEDONIA.
Second - the Makes proved that they have ethnic pride, and that they
can die for their fatherland - everybody can try to read something about
the Ilinden rebellion in 1903.
Third - just see who is speaking - some Vlach without any homeland.
Indeed those are the beggars of the Balkan peninsula - even without
ONE school in which their children to be taught in their mother language.
And they are not autochtonous (see how to write the word imbecile) or
aboriginal in the Balkans - the aboriginal people were the Thracians,
which were in the Balkans even before the Greeks to settle there in
about two thousand b. C.
Regards to all: Pavel Makedonski
June R Harton
"Pavel Makedonski" <pavelma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c3d429fb.02030...@posting.google.com...
PATHETIC
> > individuals WITHOUT any kinf of an ETHNIC pride.
> > I really feel more sorry for them than anything else.
> > Beggers they were, beggers will be.
> > Regards to all ..................L.
> > "Vlachs, The Autochthonous
> > Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
> (PM)I think in the opposite way. First, nobody is interested in the Greek
> opinion on the Makes. It is well known, but who cares...
And that is where you make your first mistake. Whenever it has
been explained to uninformed non-anti-Hellenes they completely
understand and back Greece. You see all your false websites
expose yourselves so well, that they only have to see them, get
a little education and then they solidly back Greece. You
underestimate people's intelligence laddie.
Your attempt to mislead people will simply not work.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
Dorian West
There are other enemies of Greece who support them and promise them help.
For this they are paid in drugs (which they can sell for enormous profits)
and women. This is why the Slavs maintain their irrational position, they
believe their benefactors will come to their aid. Unfortunately they and
their benefactors are mistaken and hence we see what we are seeing in FYROM
today - destabilisation, murder and mayhem. Soon FYROM will pass into
Albanian hands. The supporters of FYROM, having had enough of Slavic
incompetence, will allow the Albanians to be the new masters. They believe
that the Albanians will be a more loyal and more aggressive counterforce to
Greece, a Greece which stands for the rule of law and democracy, rather than
criminality and totalitarianism.
As usual Greece will prevail and these struggles will be read about in
history books AND as usual, they will not be forgotten! Of this you can be
sure.
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
Pavel Makedonski
> pavelma...@yahoo.com (Pavel Makedonski) wrote in message news:<c3d429fb.02030...@posting.google.com>...
> > "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message news:<_> FYROM ...etc. etc. hostile nonsence
> > As a matter of fact the Greeks ...de facto... recognized the name of their
> > Northern neighbour as including the term ...Macedonia... . Let us
newsgroup
alt.news.macedonia, where so much hatred and insults have been
poured. Unfortunately many historically based events in the most near
past are an obstacle for settling the name problem. First, it is just
unacceptable for Makedonijans to put a differentiating adjective in
the
name of their country. Of course, this would satisfy the Greek side,
but
on the other hand it will be humiliating for the other side. This is
not
possible to be done after the great apostasy with the change of the
flag
with Vergina star into the nowadays one with a similar sun, and after
the change of the Constitution with taking away the texts, which
involved
some pretensions on protection of Makedonijans, which are living
outside the borders of the state. Of course, first of all, the first
flag maybe should
not be proposed, assuming the Greek reaction. (As for me, the best
decision of the flag would be the red-and-black flag with a golden
lion
from the Ilinden rebellion in 1903. Then all that mess with the flag
with the Vergina star would be avoided.) But when the Republic of
Macedonia as
an independent state was created, the main political force were the
Communists (now renamed as Socialists). For fifty years in Yugoslav
Macedonia the official doctrine of Titoists Communists was that
Makedonijans are direct successors of the ancient Macedonians.
Everybody, which have expressed the least doubt in public in that
dogma,
was sent to concentration camp (for example "Goli otok") without any
court case, and without verdict. Even today the Union of the
Socialists in
Macedonia (with leader Branko Crvenkovski) is the second largest
political party, and their understanding of the origin of Makedonijans
is
the same. So that it was the most predictable thing, they to propose
the
flag with Vergina star, which caused so much troubles, and at last was
humiliating demolished under the pressure of the international
organizations (and of course with the active help of the Greek embargo
and hostilities). Nowadays the first political party in Makedonija is
VMRO-DPMNE (with leader the Prime Minister Lupco Georgievski) - the
party of the Makedonijan patriots with a pro-Western orientation. Many
times the leaders of that party have said, that there is not anything
dangerous, if the history of the country is revised according to the
historical data. Also L. G. has claimed, that there is not perilous
to
be recognized, that some of the most famous people in the history of
Makedonija felt themselves Bulgarians. Because of this, their party
was accused from their enemies as Bugaromans party which is working
against the interests of the country - for its disintegration. That is
not true of course. But then came the events from the previous year,
and the
Albanian provocative separatism. So that you can see, that the
historical
backgroung is quite difficult for some resolute decision of the case.
But with the time the things will go on their places. And Republic of
Makedonija will have better relations with all of its neighbours.
George S. Tsapanos
>(PM)I think in the opposite way. First, nobody is interested in the
Greek>opinion on the Makes. It is well known, but who cares... We have a
>proverb: "Dogs are barking, but the caravan is going by." The central
>point of my posting was to show, that the Greek position on the name
>question was losing from the beginning - with the Greek proposition
>"Former Yugoslav Republic of MACEDONIA" they ... de facto ...
>recognized the word "MACEDONIA" included in the name for the new
>independent state with capital Skopje. And today if you go to Skopje
>and to the Greek embassy there, you can read:>"Embassy of the
>Hellenic Republic in the FYROM" - the last letter stays for MACEDONIA.>
And I think there is someone who CARES and thats it the SKOPIANS.
They can take any name they wish, but don't expect Greece to honor it, and of
course don't expect the World to recognize another miracle, by baptizing and
bringing up few more Makedonians of the Albanian kind.
The ones in SKOPIA insisting in the name, are a VERY SMALL MINORITY, which is
afraid that UNLESS THE NAME SURVIVES, they will lose the POWER.
The basic questions are, IS SKOPIALAND REALLY MAKEDONIAN, and HOW MUCH OF IT?
Are the people living in SKOPIALAND MAKEDONIANS? And how many of them?
Is the language spoken in there a MAKEDONIAN ONE, or some kind of an hybric,
still in it's development?
> Second - the Makes proved that they have ethnic pride, and that
they>can die for their fatherland - everybody can try to read something
about>the Ilinden rebellion in 1903. >
If you take a mutt from the streets and give it a home, he'll learn many
tricks.
> Third - just see who is speaking - some Vlach without any homeland.
>Indeed those are the beggars of the Balkan peninsula - even without
>ONE school in which their children to be taught in their mother language.>
The Vlachs, indeed live in the lands of their ancestors you like it or not.
Their language is just ONE OF THE MANY they speak, and I don't see for which
reason should be their educational one especially given it's limitations.
It is a much better solution adopting as educational language the one that was
in place BEFORE the creration of the Vlachian idiom.
After all, it is up to US, to tell the World what WE WANT, and not to some
IDIOTIC GROUPS, that ""care"" about our language, that will be lost.
>And they are not autochtonous (see how to write the word imbecile) or
>aboriginal in the Balkans - the aboriginal people were the Thracians,
>which were in the Balkans even before the Greeks to settle there in
>about two thousand b. C. >
> Regards to all: Pavel Makedonski>
Aha.........we do have aboriginals but not autochthonous, ah?
And they did live in Thrace, but not 100 miles to the WEST even if the
Archaeological evidences are much richer in there.
Then tell me oh wise one, how and from where those ancient populations were
catapulted in the Pindus mountains 3500 years ago?
alex
> declares that the current population of this state has nothing to do
> with ancient Macedonia, then why would FYROM have any difficulty in
> accepting a name such as "Republic of Northern Macedonia" without
> making such a declaration?
>
as my family comes from both greek macedonia and fyr macedonia i feel
that the name northern macedonia is quite appropriate. however i
remember reading that this solution was not acceptable to the greek
end of the political spectrum, as it implies that there is a southern
half of macedonia which seems to be dislocated from the northern.
nevertheless i fail to see the point of all this nonsense an it seems
as if the govt of fyr macedonia may have to concede to a solution with
a geographical qualifier like north or northern, as they cannot
alienate (or be forced to alienate) large portions of their population
with qualifiers such as yugoslav or slavic and so on preceeding the
term macedonia; and it has been made ubundantly clear that the term
maceodnia on it own is unsuitable to most greeks.
regards, alex.
George S. Tsapanos
>Anastassios,
>as my family comes from both greek macedonia and fyr macedonia i feel
>that the name northern macedonia is quite appropriate.>
Are you the one with a mother or grandmother "Lerinchkata"?
Answer to me one thing, how FAR into SKOPIALAND you think Makedonia goes?
And why someone would like to babtize Albanian, Serbia, and Bulgarian lands as
Makedonians?
gogu
news:98b100fc.02030...@posting.google.com...
> > > If we assume that the essence of the proposal is accepted and FYROM
> > declares that the current population of this state has nothing to do
> > with ancient Macedonia, then why would FYROM have any difficulty in
> > accepting a name such as "Republic of Northern Macedonia" without
> > making such a declaration?
> Anastassios,
> as my family comes from both greek macedonia and fyr macedonia i feel
> that the name northern macedonia is quite appropriate.
IMO the name "Republic of Slavic Macedonia" would be the most appropriate
and decent compromise for both of us... But I have strong doubts that our
northern "friends" will ever accept a name like that and here is the proof
of their bad faith: they -officially- say that they ask nothing from us and
that they are not claiming any relation with ancient Macedonians, but when
asked to state their ethnic origin by using the term "Slavic" in their name,
they are refusing to do that and stay stacked in the ambiguous term
"Macedonija":-) If they say they don't want an inch of our land, if they say
they have nothing to do with ancient Macedonians and that they are basically
slavs, then why they reject the term "slav" in their name? IMHO, this is the
proof that they are not talking straight and that they just want to pass
with minimum damages this difficult moment for their moribund country,
reserving for them the right in the future to make any new unsubstantiated
claims on Greek Macedonia! Suspicious? You can bet! And that's because all
these years we've seen nothing but extremist claims and provocations on our
Macedonia from FYROM. Why believe them now?
regards to all
++
Pavel Makedonski wrote:
> l
> Third - just see who is speaking - some Vlach without any homeland.
> Indeed those are the beggars of the Balkan peninsula - even without
> ONE school in which their children to be taught in their mother language.
There are several schools in RM with Vlach language classes.
Anastassios Retzios
Reasonable people can have reasonable debates and I would like to
commend you very highly for the non-confrontational and very
thoughtful approach to the problem. I would have only wished that
others in this board have adopted a similar approach.
> Unfortunately many historically based events in the most near
> past are an obstacle for settling the name problem. First, it is just
> unacceptable for Makedonijans to put a differentiating adjective in
> the
> name of their country. Of course, this would satisfy the Greek side,
> but
> on the other hand it will be humiliating for the other side.
I hear your arguments but it all depends on how the FYROM leadership
would be approaching the problem. I do not see why a compromise would
be humiliating to FYROM. Do not forget that it will also be a
compromise for Greece which is currently on the record of not allowing
any mention of the word Macedonia in the official name of FYROM. You
know that this is the position of the majority of those posting in
this board. In fact, as a name such as "Republic of Northern -or
Mountain, or Vardar, or Slavonic- Macedonia" would still allow the
inhabitants of FYROM of calling themselves Macedonians. In such a
case, I think that most of the compromise would be on the Greek side.
In addition, the FYROM leadership would be on record of making a
friedly gesture towards Greece. Let me tell you that while the Greek
Goverment is likely to accept such an offer and push it through the
Parliament, its acceptance either in the Parliament or by the public
is hardly assured. It will require substantial political capital
investement by the current goverment to succeed, a rather uncertain
possibility.
> This is
> not
> possible to be done after the great apostasy with the change of the
> flag
> with Vergina star into the nowadays one with a similar sun, and after
> the change of the Constitution with taking away the texts, which
> involved
> some pretensions on protection of Makedonijans, which are living
> outside the borders of the state. Of course, first of all, the first
> flag maybe should
> not be proposed, assuming the Greek reaction. (As for me, the best
> decision of the flag would be the red-and-black flag with a golden
> lion
> from the Ilinden rebellion in 1903. Then all that mess with the flag
> with the Vergina star would be avoided.) But when the Republic of
> Macedonia as
> an independent state was created, the main political force were the
> Communists (now renamed as Socialists). For fifty years in Yugoslav
> Macedonia the official doctrine of Titoists Communists was that
> Makedonijans are direct successors of the ancient Macedonians.
You have hit the nail on the head. In fact, as documents and
witnesses indicate, in 1989 the goverment in Skopje knew very well
that the assumption of the title of "Republic of Macedonia" would have
seriously antagonized Greece but proceeded with it anyway, without
even approaching Athens for some consultation. I would say that
Skopje entered into the group of independent states with a broadside
against Greece. The flag and the constitutional provisions only added
insult to injury. I find it amazing that Skopje was surprised by the
Greek reaction and embargo. My assumption is that the Skopje
leadership has miscalculated as it is miscalculating today. It
thought that the West was so determined to undermine Milosevic that it
would have pressured Greece to accept FYROM's assumed name. Bad
miscalculation. It continues to this very day. In fact, the EU is
highly unlikely to pressure Greece on this issue and Greece will be
soon holding the EU chairmanship for a year. Even if one assumes that
the whole world recognizes FYROM as ROM, what would be the benefit of
this if Greece maintains its position?
I could not agree more and I would whole heartly agree that this is
the unmentioned elephant in the room. If one accepts that the area of
current FYROM was part -and a willing one- of the Bulgarian state and
that the Bulgarian cause was a strong one among the slavophone
Macedonians -and that many of them also supported the Greek cause-,
one has to accept the possibility that "reason for existence" of the
current state may be questioned. I think that politicians in Skopje
would see that the danger is of an incorporation of this state into
Bulgaria. In effect, antagonism with Greece is the price paid for
independence from Bulgaria. I personally do not think that this is
necessary but a schizophrenic policy followed for so many years cannot
be easily abandoned.
> But then came the events from the previous year,
> and the
> Albanian provocative separatism. So that you can see, that the
> historical
> backgroung is quite difficult for some resolute decision of the case.
> But with the time the things will go on their places. And Republic of
> Makedonija will have better relations with all of its neighbours.
I hope so
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
Alex
I am also a member of a family with centuries-long history in Greek
Macedonia. Overall, we are in full agreement and I hold exactly the
same opinions. They would be hard sell in Greece but, I would agree,
the undifferentiated Macedonia is a non-starter. I would be in
support of something like northern, Mountain or Vardar Macedonia.
Let's see if FYROM can see its way clear on this.
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
I believe nothing but a final signed treaty. I would agree that the
reason that FYROM insists on the name "Republic of Macedonia" is
because it wants the option to maintain a full claim on the whole
Macedonian experience. No doubt about this. I think that of some our
slavonic Macedonians friend agree on this. Abandoning this will take
time. The question is what we do in the meantime. Do we continue
"constructive engagement" or do we a more punitive line? Both of
those policies have their disadvantages.
ADR
June R Harton
"Pavel Makedonski" <pavelma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c3d429fb.02030...@posting.google.com...
> newsgroup
> alt.news.macedonia, where so much hatred and insults have been
> poured. Unfortunately many historically based events in the most near
> past are an obstacle for settling the name problem. First, it is just
> unacceptable for Makedonijans
Bulgarian, your message gets a period right there. You guys
either come to your senses or the world will end up with your
right name BULGARIANS I can assure you of that.
The Name Macedonians
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
June R Harton
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
There is enough evidence right there that this conversation should
have been terminated before it started, Anastassio!
The world shall learn that they are West Bulgarians and
have ZERO connection with Macedonia anything.
June R Harton
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
And just what is wrong with VARDAR alone?
Absolutely nothing.
So cut the compromising with folks who are criminally
continuing the communist policy of Titi to steal the history
and heritage of the Greeks to gain the Macedonian
coast!
Dorian West
Macedonians and other Greeks and a signed treaty with them is not even fit
to be used as toilet paper. Lying, cheating and thieving is a way of life
for them. Since the Jews (Turkic Khazars converted a millennia ago to escape
Mongol brutalisation) are behind this push and since the Jews are now under
pressure in the ME and waging war in middle Asia, I suggest a more punitive
line with them. It will also save the lives of the majority Albanians, other
Slavs, Gypsies, Turks and of course Macedonian-Greeks that are being
terrorised. A halt in Greece having dealings with them, an unofficial
embargo, would show them how fragile their 6th world terrorist state really
is. This would bring no pressure on Greece as they are just refusing to deal
with a terrorist state.
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
Dorian West
than living in parts of the historical Macedonian empire that was forged by
Phillip and Alexander. Their origins lie on the banks of the Volga.
Pakistanis and 100s of millions of others have more rights as they were
forcibly married off to Macedonians by Alexander or Sihkander as they call
him.
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:FWkh8.695$hq.109...@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com...
alex
> aleco54 wrote:
>
> >Anastassios,
> >as my family comes from both greek macedonia and fyr macedonia i feel
> >that the name northern macedonia is quite appropriate.>
>
> Are you the one with a mother or grandmother "Lerinchkata"?
> Answer to me one thing, how FAR into SKOPIALAND you think Makedonia goes?
> And why someone would like to babtize Albanian, Serbia, and Bulgarian lands as
> Makedonians?
it evidently doesnt matter in this news group how far into fyorm the
"real" macedonia extends. granted that june has declared bitola and
surrounding areas to be greek macedonian. any other description is
simply drowned in greek nationalism.
George S. Tsapanos
>There are several schools in RM with Vlach language classes.>
What kind of Vlach language ansd WHAT is RM?
George S. Tsapanos
> I would be in
>support of something like northern, Mountain or Vardar Macedonia.
>Let's see if FYROM can see its way clear on this.
>
>ADR>
Anastassios
How can you see a country named after ONLY its 17% of the land?
How can you see all those 50% Albanian lands, being re-named or baptized with
the name Makedonia, no matter in what combination?
There is VERY LITTLE MAKEDONIAN in that HOLE of SKOPIALAND, why should we give
them the name? Just because they have been using it thanks to Tito for few
decades now?
George S. Tsapanos
>it evidently doesnt matter in this news group how far into fyorm the
>"real" macedonia extends. granted that june has declared bitola and
>surrounding areas to be greek macedonian. any other description is
>simply drowned in greek nationalism.>
Can 10 years of SKOPIAN Makedonism, overcome 4000 of Hellenic Makedonism?
Why?
Because few SLAVS got in power and want to stay in power?
till the Albanians take over of course.......
Yannis
if they choose an other ethnic name !! Period !
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote:
...................................
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
> Galina wrote:
>
> >There are several schools in RM with Vlach language classes.>
>
> What kind of Vlach language ansd WHAT is RM?
Two different Vlach languages. One is Arumani, other one same as
Sarakatsani people speak
++
Nice post!
gogu
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
I thought you understood that my question was a rhetorical one:-)
> I would agree that the
> reason that FYROM insists on the name "Republic of Macedonia" is
> because it wants the option to maintain a full claim on the whole
> Macedonian experience. No doubt about this.
But a certain "difficulty" from them to accept it:-)
> I think that of some our
> slavonic Macedonians friend agree on this.
Hmmm... I am not so sure about that but I also can not deny:-) We have no
numbers to support your or my claim.
> Abandoning this will take
> time. The question is what we do in the meantime.
Well, I was thinking that this "meantime" was all those years since the
embargo!!!:-) How much
more "meantime" we need? We must know that the more this problem is
prolonged
the more time is working against Greece's interests...
> Do we continue
> "constructive engagement" or do we a more punitive line?
Well, in the today situation I find that "punitive" line as you call it is
out of question because of geostrategic reasons and because Americans will
never allow it. They need this "arms" stability in the region at this
moment and they do not need a weaker FYROM... The present situation suits
better their interests. They will not allow Greece to destroy it.
So I believe that the constructive rapprochement is the only way, not only
because it is more suitable now but also because this must be the way
countries must solve their problems. OTOH rapprochement is good as far as it
not degenerates in a time consuming tactic just to give FYROM-ians a
tactical advantage...
> Both of
> those policies have their disadvantages.
Yes, we don't live in a perfect world:-)
> ADR
WolfWolf
>
> Yes, we don't live in a perfect world:-)
Yes, and gogu ist the best example of it.
Get lost, brainless idiot!!
WolfWolf
The European
Anastassios Retzios
> Anastassios wrote:
>
> > I would be in
> >support of something like northern, Mountain or Vardar Macedonia.
> >Let's see if FYROM can see its way clear on this.
> >
> >ADR>
>
> Anastassios
> How can you see a country named after ONLY its 17% of the land?
> How can you see all those 50% Albanian lands, being re-named or baptized with
> the name Makedonia, no matter in what combination?
> There is VERY LITTLE MAKEDONIAN in that HOLE of SKOPIALAND, why should we give
> them the name? Just because they have been using it thanks to Tito for few
> decades now?
>
Simple. It is a matter of political realism and reaching an amicable
solution. The continuation of this dispute is not good either for
Greece or for FYROM. I think that this would be a good compromise and
we would be able to discuss something else.
ADR
George S. Tsapanos
>Simple. It is a matter of political realism and reaching an amicable
>solution. The continuation of this dispute is not good either for
>Greece or for FYROM. I think that this would be a good compromise and>we
would be able to discuss something else.>
>ADR>
Who cares about any kind of political realism and amicable solution when it
favors those SKOPIAN leeches?
Let the BASTARDS of the Balkans die with their ORIGINAL names on, not like
Makedonians.
After all they did EVERYTHING possible to ASSASINATE the REAL MAKEDONIANS in
the name of International Communism.
We don't need any COMPROMISES, what we need is A PERMANENT EMBARGO and let them
die like cockraches they are, usurpers of Hellenic Glory.
The hell with those few hundred thousands of IDIOTS that they believe overnight
were TRANSORMED into..........Makedonians just because of their God-Father
Tito.
It is not going to be no name recognition of the SKOPIANS and their stinky
SKOPIALAND as Makedonia no matter what.
You, them, and everyone think in any kind of solutions, amicable or not, but
political REALITY calls for A PERMANENT EMBARGO, after all WHAT do they have
for us?
George S. Tsapanos
>Two different Vlach languages. One is Arumani, other one same as
>Sarakatsani people speak>
Hahahahahahaha
Why not tell us whatis and who is speaking ""Arumani"" and then........tell us
about the "Sarakatsani" language please.
June R Harton
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3C868CD8...@erols.com...
> Pavle,
> Nice post!
> Pavel Makedonski wrote:
Not so, Gail, and I can assure you of the following too:
----- Original Message -----
From: "June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net>
Newsgroups: alt.news.macedonia,soc.culture.greek
Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: West Bulgaria for FYROM
"Pavel Makedonski" <pavelma...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c3d429fb.02030...@posting.google.com...
> It is very well, that a benevolent discussion can be done in the
> newsgroup
> alt.news.macedonia, where so much hatred and insults have been
> poured. Unfortunately many historically based events in the most near
> past are an obstacle for settling the name problem. First, it is just
> unacceptable for Makedonijans
Bulgarian, your message gets a period right there. You guys
either come to your senses or the world will end up with your
right name BULGARIANS I can assure you of that.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
Anastassios Retzios
George,
You yourself know that you are wrong here. There is one maxim in
international politics. Do not make enemies unnecessarily. For the
time being, we are the agrieved party. However, if FYROM offers a
compromise and if this compromise is rebuffed, then we will have made
a major blunder. Thank God, they are less astute than you and we are
quite safe in this regard. As Theodorakis put it in another issue: we
have a good hate going, why spoil it???
ADR
George S. Tsapanos
>George,
>
>You yourself know that you are wrong here. There is one maxim in
>international politics. Do not make enemies unnecessarily. For the
>time being, we are the agrieved party. However, if FYROM offers a
>compromise and if this compromise is rebuffed, then we will have made
>a major blunder. Thank God, they are less astute than you and we are
>quite safe in this regard. As Theodorakis put it in another issue: we
>have a good hate going, why spoil it???
>
>ADR>
And how wrong you are,or ignorant of what is happening........
The SKOPIANS do not want just the NAME, they want with THAT name to convince
the World that the REST of Makedonia is SKOPIAN.
THAT what they are teaching to their children for the last 80 years and thats
why we have two generations of PSEUDOMAKEDONIANS, who finally given the
opportunity they came out of the closet to call themselves
as........Makedonians.
Do you REALLY believe that if we agree on any name INCLUDING the term
Makedonia, that the SLAVS will stop in there?
How could they?
Even the report last month was making it CLEAR that SKOPIA and its goverment
should CHANGE things..........and yet.........we hear NOTHING about that, but
only about the name.
We can not make enemies out of the SKOPIANS, they ARE THE ENEMY.
They are the SAME Communists, who became Socialists, who for 80 years now
brainwashed and violated HUMAN RIGHTS, not only of those poor Albanians in
there, but also of the Greeks.
They are the SAME BASTARDS and their FAMILIES, that came in FREE MAKEDONIA
together with the BULGARIAN OCHRANA, to destroy not just the Makedonians, but
HELLENISM itself.
Yourself most likely have not gone thru certain ""details"" of that three years
war, or what took place in those Makedonian mountains.
We and our families that were there got a taste.
The SKOPIANS do not deserve any name associated with Makedonia and ALL Hellenes
should make that clear, AS IT DID THE PASOK GOVERMENT.
And it is the only policy I like about them.
Voyager
http://www.britannica.com/magazine/article?content_id=13529&query=historyanc
1) What ancient historians wrote
Polybios
"In the past you rivaled the Achaians and the kinsmen Macedonians and their
ruler, Philip, about the hegemony and glory, but now that the freedom of the
Hellenes is at stake at a war against an alien people (Romans), ...but now
if you invite them do not you see that you invite them against your ownself
and the whole of Hellas. ...And does it worth to ally with the barbarians
against the Epeirotans, the Achaians, the Akarnanians, the Boiotians, the
Thessalians, almost all the Hellenes with the exception of the Aitolians who
are a wicked nation... So Lakedaimonians it is good to remember your
ancestors, ... be afraid of the Romans... and do ally yourselves with the
Achaians and Macedonians. And if the most influential amongst yourselves
oppose that then stay neutral and do not side with the unjust.
(Polybios 9.37.7-39.7; Speech of Lykiskos, the representative of Akarnania)
"How highly should we honour the Macedonians, who for the greater part of
their lives never cease from fighting with the barbarians for the sake of
the security of Hellas? For who is not aware that Hellas would have
constantly stood in the greater danger, had we not been fenced by the
Macedonians and the honorable ambition of their kings?"
(The Histories of Polybios, IX, 35, 2)
Herodotos
"Now that the men of this family are Hellenes, sprung from Perdiccas, as
they themselves affirm, is a thing which I can declare on my own knowledge,
and which I will hereafter make plainly evident. That they are so has been
already adjudged by those who manage the Pan-Hellenic contest at Olympia"
(Herodotus, The Histories 8.43)
"Tell your king who sent you how his Hellenic viceroy of Macedonia has
received you hospitably... "
(Herodotus V, 20, 4)
"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Hellenes, as they themselves
say, I myself chance to know"
(Herodotus V, 22, 1)
Thoukididis
"The country by the sea which is now called Macedonia... Alexander, the
father of Perdiccas, and his forefathers, who were originally Temenidae from
Argos"
(Thucididis 99,3)
"In all there were about three thousand Hellenic heavy infantry, accompanied
by all the Macedonian cavalry with the Chalcidians, near one thousand
strong, besides an immense crowd of barbarians."
(Thukididis 4.124)
Arrian
"He sent to Athens three hundred Persian panoplies to be set up to Athena in
the acropolis; he ordered this inscription to be attached: Alexander son of
Philip and the Hellenes, except the Lacedaemonians, set up these spoils from
the barbarians dwelling in Asia",
(Arrian I, 16, 7)
"Your ancestors invaded Macedonia and the rest of Hellas and did us great
harm, though we had done them no prior injury;... I have been appointed
hegemon of the Greeks... "
(Arrian, Anabasis of Alexander II, 14, 4)
Aeschines
....at the congress of the Lakedaimonian allies and the rest of the
Hellenes, in which Amyntas, the father of Philip, being entitled to a seat,
was represented by a delegate whose vote was absolutely under his control,
he joined the rest of the Hellenes in voting..."
(Aeschines, On the Embassy 32)
Plutarchos
"But he said, `If I were not Alexandros, I should be Diogenes'; that is to
say: `If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things
Hellenic, to traverse and civilize every every continent, to search out the
uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the boiunds of Macedonia to the
farthest Ocean, and to diseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic
justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly
in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes.
But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate
Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and
progenitor of my family, and desire that victorius Hellenes should dance
again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage
mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos...' "
(Plutarchos, On the Fortune of Alexander, 332 a-b)
"Yet through Alexander, Bactria and the Caucasus learned to revere the gods
of the Hellenes ... Alexander established more than seventy cities among
savage tribes, and sowed all Asia with Hellenic magistracies ... Egypt would
not have its Alexandria, nor Mesopotamia its Seleucia, nor Sogdiana its
Prophthasia, nor India its Bucephalia, nor the Caucasus a Hellenic city, for
by the founding of cities in these places savagery was extinguished and the
worse element, gaining familiarity with the better, changed under its
influence.'
(Plutarchos Moralia. On the Fortune of Alexander, I, 328D, 329A)
"When he (Alexander the Great) arrived at Ilion he sacrificed to Athena and
offered libations to the Heroes."
(Plutarchos, Alexander 15)
Isokratis
"It is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom,
to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race."
(Isokratis, To Philip 127)
Pausanias
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the
Hellenic Assembly: ... the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race
... In my day there were thirty members: six each from Nikopolis, Macedonia
and Thessaly ... "
(Pausanias Phokis VIII, 2 & 4)
Diodorus of Sicily
"Such was the end of Philip ... He had ruled 24 years. He is known to fame
as one who with but the slenderest resources to support his claim to a
throne won for himself the greatest empire among the Hellenes, while the
growth of his position was not due so much to his prowess in arms as to his
adroitness and cordiality in diplomacy."
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.95.1-2)
"Along with lavish display of every sort, Philip included in the procession
statues of the twelve Gods wrought with great artistry and adorned with a
dazzling show of wealth to strike awe to the beholder, and along with these
was conducted a thirteenth statue, suitable for a god, that of Philip
himself, so that the king exhibited himself enthroned among the twelve Gods.
Every seat in the theater was taken when Philip appeared wearing a white
cloak and by his express orders his bodyguard held away from him and
followed only at a distance, since he wanted to show publicly that he was
protected by the goodwill of all the Hellenes, and had no need of a guard of
spearmen."
(Diodoros of Sicily 16.92.5-93.2)
"After this Alexandros left Dareios's mother, his daughters,and his son in
Susa, providing them with persons to teach them the hellenic dialect,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.67.1)
"Alexandros observed that his soldiers were exhausted with their constant
campaigns. ...The hooves of the horses had been worn thin by steady
marching. The arms and armour were wearing out, and the Hellenic clothing
was quite gone. They had to clothe themselves in materials of the
barbarians,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.94.1-2)
Titus Livius
"Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, men of the same language"
(T. Livius XXXI,29, 15)
2) Historical Evidence of the Greekness of Macedonia
All the historical sources are agreed on the location of Macedonia: it lay
between the Aegean Sea and the Mounts Cambounia, Pieria and Olympus to the
south, lakes Ochrid and Prespa and Mounts Bambouna, Skomion (Rila Planina)
and Rhodopon to the north, the river Nestos to the east and the Grammos and
Pindus ranges to the west.
The inhabitants of this area (Macedonians) were one of the most ancient
Greek tribes. Their closest relatives were the Thessalians and particularly
the Magnesians, with whom they shared Aeolian ancestry. The language they
spoke was among the oldest forms of Greek, and it had affinities with the
Aeolian, Arcado-Cypriot and Mycenean dialects. The religion of the
Madeconians was that of the other Greeks, and their myths and traditions
were those found throughout the Greek world (Wells, The Outline of History,
Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru, Glimpses of World History).
King Philip II of Macedon and his son Alexander the Great - to whom Skopje
is currently attempting to attribute a 'Slavomacedonian' (sic) identity -
acted not simply as Greeks but as Panhellenic leaders in the sense that they
embodied the old idea of the formation of a united Greek state with the
amalgamation of the Greek city-states. As Johann Gustav Droysen - among
other scholars - points out in his History of Alexander the Great, both
Philip and Alexander "brought to the peoples of Asia and implanted in them
not the Macedonian culture, which had no independent standing, but the Greek
culture".
In subsequent periods, and especially after the appearance in the Balkans of
the Slavs and Bulgars (6th and 7th centuries AD), the geographical area of
Macedonia as defined above continued to be the bulwark and bastion of the
Greek race, just as it had been in antiquity. Polybius calls Macedonia "the
advanced line of defence" and pays tribute to the Macedonians for fighting
the barbarians ('non-Greeks') to preserve the security of the (other)
Greeks" (Polybious, Historiae, Leipzig 1898.). This view is reiterated for
the Byzantine period by the French historian Paul Lemerle in his classic
work Philippe et la Macedoine Orientale (Paris, 1945).
No mention is made of 'Macedonia' or 'Macedonians' as a distinct
ethnological group in any official text of either the recent or the more
distant past. Neither the Treaty of Berlin, for example, nor the Treaty of
San Stefano which was revoked by it make any reference to such concepts. The
official Turkish census of 1905 gives figures for the populations of Greeks,
Bulgarians and "quasi-Bulgarians" in the vilayets of Thessaloniki and
Monastir, where the Greeks were in the majority, but contains no reference
to 'Macedonians'-for the simple reason that none of those questioned stated
such descent.
E.M. Cousinery, who served as French consul in Thessaloniki, informs us in
his Voyage dans la Macedoine (Paris, 1851) that "the Bulgarians" (as the
Slav-speakers were called at that time) "never penetrated into the forests
below Mt. Vermion, where the population remained Greek". The German
geographer Leonard D. Schultze, writing of the same area in his Macedonien
Landschafts und Kulturbilder (Jena, 1927) observes that in terms of
language, tradition, cultural affinities, national will and religion the
inhabitants of Macedonia are "as genuinely Greek as their brothers to the
south". Both these authors repeat, in different ways, what Lord Salisbury,
representing Britain at the Congress of Berlin, said at the session of 19
June 1878: "Macedonia and Thrace are as Greek as Crete".
The fact that a small percentage of the population of this area also speaks
a language which is fundamentally Bulgarian (though containing numerous loan
words from Slav, Greek, Vlach and Albanian) is no proof of Slav or Bulgarian
origins. As demonstrated in the recent past with the forcible removal to
Greece of Greeks from Asia Minor who spoke not a word of the Greek language,
the linguistic criterion, taken in isolation, is of no value whatever.
It is also characteristic that among the freedom-fighters of the 'Macedonian
Struggle' (1904-1908) there were many who spoke the local tongue but were
fully Greek in terms of national consciousness. Their names-Kotas, Dalipis,
Kyrou, Gonos and others-are still remembered. The Russian historian E.
Goloubinsti (Brief History of the Orthodox Churces of Bulgaria, Serbia and
Romania, Moscow 1871) wrote of these Greeks who were not Greek speakers that
"they had relentless hate and profound contempt for everything Bulgarian or
Slav".
After the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913, the area occupied by ancient Macedonia
was divided up, 51% of it becoming Greek territory, 38,32% going to
Yugoslavia and 10,11% passing into Bulgarian hands. This brought about a
territorial status in which, with the voluntary exchange of populations
under bilateral agreements (the Treaty of Neuilly, 1919, which provided for
the voluntary exchange of populations between Greece and Bulgaria, and that
of 1926 known as the 'Kafantaris-Moloff agreement') and the settling of
Greeks from Turkey in the Greek part of Macedonia, the population of that
area became purely Greek even though some of the inhabitants were bilingual.
In other words, Greek Macedonia became an entirely homogeneous part of the
Greek State. This became even more the case in the post-Occupation period
(1945-1949), when almost all the bilingual inhabitants of the area whose
national consciousness was not Greek moved to neighbouring states, and to
Yugoslavia in particular, where their quasi-Greek or quasi-Bulgarian
nationalities were mutated into the 'Macedonian' - that is, Slav-Macedonian
- nationality.
The emergence of this state of affairs was preceded by a number of violent
incidents, such as the Ilinden rising, during which the Bulgarians were
alleged to have revolted against the Turks on 2 August 1903 in the town of
Krushevo, near Monastir, where the population was overwhelmingly Greek. In
fact, however, the Bulgarians rose in revolt against the Greek population,
whom they attempted to exterminate-with the co-operation of the
Turks-without significantly harming the other inhabitants of the town
(Douglas Dakin, The Greek Struggle in Macedonia 1897-1915, Thessaloniki
1966).
Until the year 1914, the concepts of "Macedonia" as a Slav state and of "the
Macedonian race" as a separate nationality were completely unknown. The part
of Macedonia which was incorporated into Serbia, like that which became
Bulgarian, was a narrow strip of territory along the Greek border, and it
amounted to a very small proportion of Serbia as a whole. Skopje, which
today claims to be the capital of what it calls "the Republic of Macedonia",
in fact lies a considerable distance outside Macedonia. The "People' s
Republic of Macedonia" later renamed "Socialist Republic of Macedonia", was
founded at the end of the German Occupation as a deliberate political
attempt intended - with the conceding of the Skopja and Tetova districts,
which had never belonged to Macedonia in any sense - to state the presence
of a Serbian population in the thinly-populated part of Macedonia beyond the
Greek frontiers (where the inhabitants were Serbs, Greeks, Greek Vlachs,
quasi-Turkish Muslims and Bulgarians), or, at least, of a Slav-speaking
population with a language of their own and a shifting national
consciousness. The founding of the People's Republic of Macedonia was thus
intended to lead, in the long term, to the re-constitution of a 'Macedonian'
state-though this time under a Slav mantle and with the aim of giving
Yugoslavia an outlet on the Aegean.
Conflicts between National Movements in the 19th Century
During the l9th century, as the Balkan peoples - one after the
other-acquired the nuclei around which their nation-states would be built,
their national ideologies coincided in areas where there were mixed
populations and where there were also overlapping national claims.
One of the areas in which these problems manifested themselves in
particularly acute form was Macedonia. In the l9th century, this part of the
world was the place where four mutually conflicting national ideologies-the
Greek, the Bulgarian, the Serbian and the Albanian-came up against one
another. As a result, it was inevitable that the national identity of the
inhabitants of the area should be one of the fundamental factors in the
promotion of each side's claims.
Leaving aside the Muslims, who made up approximately 1/3 of the total
population, it was at this time extremely difficult to determine the
national identity of the Christian population groups. Until the mid-19th
century, the bulk of the rural population remained faithful to the
Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, which was the guardian of the
Greek language, the Greek Byzantine tradition and even of historical memory.
This factor reinforced an automatic tendency towards Greek culture on the
part of the population groups which did not speak Greek: in other words,
those which spoke Slav languages, Vlach or Albanian. However, in the
hinterland and particularly in the Slav-speaking areas of central and north
Macedonia, the Greek national ideology advanced slowly and new influences
began to penetrate the region. The antagonism between the Greek and
Bulgarian churches, which became much more acute after the foundation of the
Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870, caused sharp clashes between Greeks and
Bulgarians in the parts of Macedonia which they shared.
The Greek-Bulgarian Conflict
The Greek national ideology attached particular importance to the Classical
Greek past of Macedonia and, naturally enough, stressed the period and
achievements of Alexander the Great. At about this time, a pamphlet telling
the story of Alexander's life and emphasising the continuity of the Greek
nation was printed in the local Slav dialect (though in the Greek alphabet)
and placed on the curriculum in schools in areas still under Turkish
control. Attention was also paid to cultivating and disseminating the
tradition of the Byzantine Empire. The two multi national empires, that of
Alexander and that of Byzantium, provided forceful arguments for believing
that despite their differences of language and custom the various population
groups would choose to identify themselves with Greek culture against a
background of broader state formations. Indeed, Rigas Pherraios had
envisaged something of this nature with his Balkan Federation.
The Bulgarian national ideology, on its part, attempted to graft the
cultural tradition of Bulgaria on to the Slav-speaking population of
Macedonia. There was one major obstacle to this: the fact that a
considerable proportion of the Slav speaking population, particularly in the
central and southern regions, had retained a flourishing Greek historical
tradition. The Bulgarians soon realised that the factor of history militated
against the dissemination of the Bulgarian national ideology, and for that
reason they turned their attention to other mechanisms by which national
consciousness can be moulded.
The first such mechanism which they exploited was that of linguistic
affinity. Subsequently, the Bulgarians attempted to manipulate popular
indignation over the social oppression exerted by the area's Ottoman rulers.
Their aim was to provoke a popular uprising which, suitably handled, might
turn into a Bulgarian national movement. In parallel, the Bulgarians
fomented a confrontation between the rural population and the Greek clergy,
launching a violent attack on what they called the 'spiritual slavery' of
the Ecumenical Patriarchate. With the help of the Bulgarian State, Bulgarian
schools began to spring up in the towns and villages of Macedonia. The basic
aim of these schools was to inspire in the pupils pride in the medieval
history of Bulgaria and particularly in the empire of Tsar Samuel, whose
capital was at Ochrid. The Bulgarian historical armoury was not, of course,
sufficient to eliminate the Greek cultural and historical heritage in
Macedonia, and for that reason a system of forging historical truth by
appropriating historical events and personalities was adopted. The Greek
missionaries Cyril and Methodius were thus presented as Bulgarians, while
their apostolic and civilising work among the Slavs was deemed to be a
'political and cultural achievement on the part of the Bulgarians'. Even
Alexander the Great, who occupied so important a place in the hearts and
minds of the people of Macedonia, was portrayed in popular texts of the time
as being of Bulgarian descent. This is closely related to the nature of
Skopje's current propaganda target, which is to portray Alexander the Great
as a 'Skopjian'.
The Serbs, Romanians and Vlachs were late in appearing on the scene in
Macedonia. However, they, too, saw it as expedient to enlist the aid of the
memory of a Serbian presence in Macedonia in the Middle Ages-regardless of
the fact that from the chronological point of view this presence was
confined to the period of Tsar Dusan and his successors (14th century).
Romanians and Vlachs
A further problem was the appearance among the Vlachs of Macedonia of the
Romanian national ideology in the last two decades of the l9th century. Of
all the non Greek-speaking population groups in Macedonia, the Vlachs had
given the most whole-hearted support to the Greek national ideology. They
were a living example of how a non Greek-speaking population could be fully
incorporated into the Greek national movement. During the War of
Independence of 1821 a similar phenomenon had been observed in the case of
the Christian Albanian-speakers (the 'Arvanites'), who identified themselves
completely with the Greek national cause. However, in the late 1860s the
Romanian national ideology began to penetrate some Vlach communities, and
its impact was still stronger after Romania gained its independence in 1877.
The Romanian 'enlighteners' pointed to the common Latin origin of the
Romanian and Vlach languages and also attempted to exploit the historical
factor, inventing theories about a common historical origin for the Vlachs
of the southern Balkans and the Romanians of the Danubian areas. These
efforts had very limited-though far from negligible-results. One of the
fundamental reasons why the Romanians failed to win the majority of the
Vlachs over to their cause was undoubtedly the fact that for many centuries
the Vlachs had identified themselves with the Greeks by whose side they
lived and had taken active part in all the struggles of the Greek nation for
its liberation. This living memory could not be substituted by historical
references to the Roman period.
A further central problem which arose during the l9th century was that of
whether the Slav-speakers of Macedonia were Bulgarians or belonged to a
separate Slav group. At that time, the term 'Macedonians' was very widely
used, sometimes in a regional and geographical sense and sometimes
culturally. When the Serbians realised that they could not pass the
Slav-speakers of Macedonian of as true Serbs, they chose to put forward the
theory of the existence of a separate Slav-Macedonian people which differed
from the Bulgarians but had affinities with the Slavs. At a later date, some
of the revolutionaries who emerged from the ranks of the Bulgarian national
movement began to promote the idea of an autonomous 'Macedonian' state which
would be independent even of Bulgaria. They took as their slogan "Macedonia
for the Macedonians", but in effect this was only a tactical maneuver.
Although the leaders of this movement appeared to be supporting the creation
of an independent Macedonia, they made no attempt to interfere with the
Bulgarian historical identity of the Slavs of Macedonia, thus demonstrating
that in fact they continued to be attached to the Bulgarian national
identity. The only difference was that their political aim was autonomy and
not union.
The 'Macedonian Struggle'
After the foundation of the Bulgarian Exarchate in 1870, clashes between
Greeks and Bulgarians began in Macedonia. The main aim of the Greek side was
to prevent the Bulgarian attempt to gain control of the Slav-speaking
populations who lived in the area between a
Kastoria-Ptolemaida-Yannitsa-Zichni (Serres) line to the north and a
Ochrid-Perpeles-Stromnitsa-Meleniko-Nevrokopi line to the south. The Greek
defeat in the war of 1897 allowed the Bulgarians to compel a large part of
the Slav-speaking population in this area to embrace Bulgarian ideals. This
resulted in the Ilinden rising on the feast day of the Prophet Elijah in
1903, a revolt which was crushed by the Turkish army.
The rising led, in turn, to the sacking of many Greek villages and towns,
including Krushevo. The looting and the persecution of Greek populations put
the Greek on to a war footing, and 1904 saw the beginning of the Greek armed
rising known as the Macedonian Struggle, which was to last until 1908.
Throughout the Macedonian Struggle armed bands of volunteers from the free
Greek state (from Crete, Epirus, Thessaly and many parts of the Greek world
which were as yet unredeemed), fighting shoulder-to-shoulder with the local
inhabitants, were able to prevent any extension of Bulgarian activities and
to preserve the Greek character of southern and central Macedonia. In many
cases, the Greek units consisted principally of Slav and Vlach-speaking
guerrillas fighting for the Greek cause. This preference for the Greek
national ideal caused the Bulgarians to call them 'Grecomani'-that is,
fanatical Greeks. The descendants of these freedom fighters still live in
the Monastir district.
The armed Macedonian Struggle was broken off in July 1908, because of the
Young Turk Revolt. When the Young Turks overthrew the feudal regime of the
Sultan, they issued a general amnesty and also promised all the
nationalities equal civil rights.
The Macedonian Struggle, which began under the most adverse circumstances
and lasted four whole years, was an unqualified triumph for the Greeks. One
reason for this was that the Struggle attracted Greeks from the free state,
from Crete and from other enslaved areas, who fought side-by-side with the
Macedonians. A second, and equally serious, reason for the success was that
the Greeks were fighting in an area inhabited by a fraternally-related
population with the same ideals and the same dedication to the Ecumenical
Patriarchate and the Greek national idea, regardless of the fact that the
Greek language was not always spoken.
How to Construct a Nationality
The Turkish defeat in the First Balkan War brought the Ottoman period in the
history of Macedonia to an end. Of the geographical area of Macedonia as a
whole, Greece received 51%, Serbia 39% and Bulgaria 10%. The mass exodus of
populations which found themselves living on foreign soil, together with
exchanges and deportations, drastically altered the ethnological composition
of all these parts of Macedonia, and were particularly noticeable in the
Greek section.
The successive defeats of Bulgaria in the First and Second World War led to
the growth in Bulgarian Macedonia of a combative Bulgarian Macedonian
nationalism. The Comintern attempted to exploit the irridentist trends of
this nationalism by adopting the policy of a "unified and independent
Macedonia" to form part of a "Balkan Communist Federation ".
In Yugoslav Macedonia, the policy of conversion to Serbian ideals applied by
Belgrade produced relatively poor results. In order to escape ill-treatment,
part of the population refrained from expressing its pro-Bulgarian
disposition, suppressed its Bulgarian names and made use of the politically
neutral geographical term Macedones. Other sections of the population chose
to incorporate themselves openly into the Serbian national community.
In Greek Macedonia, the remnants of the Slav-speaking population amounted to
100-150,000 after the exchange of populations and were divided into two
groups: one fairly large group, which under Turkish rule had thrown in its
lot with the Greek national identity, and a smaller group which had adopted
the Bulgarian national identity or remain non-aligned.
During the Second World War, the incursion of the Bulgarian army into
Yugoslav Macedonia was welcomed by one section of the population as the
first step towards the liberation and incorporation into the Bulgarian state
for which they longed. A similar phenomenon, though on a much smaller scale,
also occurred in Greek Macedonia.
The Yugoslav partisans under Tito soon became aware that at all costs they
must break the bonds between the population of Yugoslav Macedonia and
Bulgaria. They thus exploited the growing discontent towards the Bulgarian
occupying forces among the population: the Bulgarians reacted with cruelty
and mass reprisals to the attacks of the partisans. Tito's partisans
promised the population that in post-War Yugoslavia the Macedonians- that
is, the Slavs of Yugoslav Macedonia-would have rights equal to those enjoyed
by all the other nationalities, and even equal to those of the Serbs. They
emphasised, however, that the Slavs of Macedonia had no affinities either
with the Serbs or with the Bulgarians: they constituted a separate,
Macedonian, nationality. The idea of distinct Macedonian nationality was
welcomed by a significant proportion of Yugoslav Macedonia. The political
and social conditions were ripe for acceptance of the new theory: Bulgaria
had been defeated, Tito had succeeded in gaining Stalin's consent to
implementation of the new Macedonian policy, and the population was worn out
after half a century of Serbian and Bulgarian efforts to impose on it their
own national identities.
After the success of the Patriotic Front revolution in Bulgaria (in which
the Communist Party of Bulgaria played the leading role) in September 1944,
negotiations began between the Communist Parties of Yugoslavia and Bulgaria
on the future of Macedonia and of the Balkans as a whole once the War was
over. On 2 August 1944 the formation of the "Socialist Republic of
Macedonia" was announced at Prohor Pcinjsci Monastery: it was to form part
of the new federal Yugoslavia.
In September 1944, a Yugoslav delegation headed by General Tempo and Lazar
Kolisevki, General Secretary of the Communist Party of Macedonia, visited
Sofia and extracted from the new Bulgarian leadership a promise that the
inhabitants of Pirin (Bulgarian Macedonia) would be granted autonomy as a
first step towards unification with the federal "Republic of Macedonia " in
Tito's Yugoslavia. In April 1945, Tito imposed a federal system on
Yugoslavia and installed the governments of the federal states of Serbia,
Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Montenegro and Skopje, the last of which was
founded on 30 April 1945.
In the meantime, and while the outcome of the civil war which had broken out
in Greece remained in the balance, the Yugoslavs exerted ever-increasing
pressure on their Bulgarian comrades to have Bulgarian Macedonia ceded to
Yugoslavia. By the end of 1946, the Bulgarians' had made specific
concessions to Yugoslavia over Macedonia. At its 10th Session in August
1946, the Central Committee of the CPB resolved to work "towards cultural
convergence between the inhabitants of Pirin Macedonia and the People's
Republic of Macedonia ". This was followed by a sweeping programme of
cultural exchanges, while at the same time the inhabitants of Pirin were
given the right to chose between the Bulgarian and the "Macedonian"
nationality.
Tempted by the various incentives offered, most of them chose to be
"Macedonians". After a long period of consultation, Tito and Dimitrov, the
leaders of Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, met at Bled in Yugoslavia on 2 August
1947 and signed a series of agreements known as the Bled Protocols, by which
Bulgaria agreed, in return for certain minor concessions, to recognise the
inhabitants of Bulgarian Macedonia (Pirin) as "Macedonians" and to prepare
the ground for the incorporation of the Pirin province into the "Socialist
Republic of Macedonia". In return, Bulgaria requested only that the
so-called "Western districts" which the Serbs had occupied at the end of the
First World War be returned.
However, Tito's grandiloquent plans for a "Federation of the South Slavs"
under his leadership fell foul of Stalin. The split came in the summer of
1948, and it made nonsense of all Yugoslavia's plans to make Tito the master
of the Balkans using the 'Macedonian question' as a lever. In these
circumstances, Bulgaria was able to release itself from the concessions it
had made over Macedonia. It rejected the theory of the "Macedonian nation"
and expelled the political instructors dispatched to Bulgaria by Skopje.
Sofia then attempted to exploit the difficulties in which the Yugoslavs
found themselves to raise once more the pre-War slogan of a "united and
independent Macedonia ".
----------------------------------------------------------
SKOPJE'S THEORETICAL SLEIGHT OF HAND.
1. Cyril and Methodius, the "Patrons Saints of Europe"
It is historically proven fact- and one which is accepted by Slav
historians- that the Slavs settled in the Balkans in the 6th century AD and
that their cultural history begins in the 10th century AD. The cultural
history of the Slavs was founded by two Greek monks from Thessaloniki, Cyril
and Methodius, who taught the Slavs the Cyrillic script and initiated them
into Orthodox Christianity. It is a matter of common knowledge that the
Byzantine Greek achievements in science, the arts and letters constitute the
main and central part of the infrastructure of Slav cultural history.
However, some Slav historians argue that these two Greek monks were actually
"Slavs", and Skopje has advanced an even stranger and less accurate theory:
that since Cyril and Methodius were from Thessaloniki, they were "Macedonian
Slavs" and that, consequently, as their descendants (!), they have the
honour of having "enlightened" their fellow-Slavs.
A serious blow to the credibility of these theories was struck by Pope John
Paul II (himself a Slav), who on 31 December 1980 issued an official
apostolic encyclical (Egrigiae Virtutis), to the Catholic Church as a whole
and sent a private letter to the President of the Hellenic Republic
proclaiming Cyril and Methodius, "our brother Greeks, born in Thessaloniki",
patron saints of Europe. The Pope reiterated this proclamation in an address
delivered on 14 February 1981 in the church of San Clemente, Rome.
There is no shortage of Slav politicians and historians who accept that
Cyril and Methodius were Greek: They include the Czech Byzantologist F.
Dvornik, the Serbian historians of early Serbian literature P. Popovich, Dj
Sh. Radovich and Dj. Trijunovich, and the Slovenian Professor B. Grajeneurer
of the University of Ljubljana.
One characteristic example of this can be found in the History of Early Slav
Literature (Belgrade, 1980) by professor V. Bagdanovich, a Serb, who writes:
"Cyril and Methodius were born in Thessaloniki and were of Greek not Slav.
descent".
The Greekness of the Slav-Speakers
Various sets of Statistics saw the light of day during the period of intense
Greek Bulgarian conflict concerning the ethnological composition of the
Macedonian population. The numerical data given fluctuate wildly, since the
sets of statistics were based on different criteria and were designed to
serve the national ambitions of those who compiled them.
When it was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, Macedonia was divided
administratively into two vilayets of Thessaloniki and Monastir. The general
inspector of vilayets had his headquarters in Thessaloniki, and in the
run-up to the Balkan Wars this post was held by Hilmi Pasha. His census of
1904 must be a close approximation to the real situation; it gives the
following proportions of Greeks and Bulgarians:
Greeks Bulgarians
------- ----------
Vilayet of Thessaloniki 373,227 207,317
Vilayet of Monastir 261,283 178,412
Total 634,510 385,729
In an interview with the French writer Paillares, Hilmi Pasha had the
following to say about the Slav-speakers: "My view, and the view of my
government, is that these people are Greeks. We classify our subjects
according to the churches and schools they frequent. Unless violent pressure
is applied to them, these people call themselves Greeks" (L' improglio
Macedonien, Paris 1907, pp. 50-51.).
As early as 1871, the Russian author Golonbinski wrote that "these so called
Greeks display towards anything Bulgarian or Slav a more relentless hatred
and more profound contempt than even real Greeks would have done". And in
memorandum which the inhabitants of the Monastir area sent to the French
government in 1903, they expressed the point more eloquently than any
traveller could do :"We speak Greek, Bulgarian and Albanian; that does not
make any of us the less Greek, nor do we permit to call our Greekness into
question".
Further proof of the Greekness of the Slav-speakers-and of the inhabitants
of the area in general - is to be found in the educational organisation of
the Greeks of Macedonia. In the Monastir area there were 284 Greek schools,
of which the town of Monastir alone had a secondary school, a teacher
training school, a girls' school, a boys' school, a seminary, an 'urban
academy' and 14 primary schools. In Krusheno there was a junior secondary
school, a girls' high school, a boy's high school, four primary school and a
nursery school. They were primary school, girls' schools, institutes of
advanced education and nursery schools in Megarovo, Trnavo, Milosista,
Nizopoli, Gopesi, Upper and Lower Belista, Brusnik, Lahci, Bukovo,
Stromnita, Gevgeli and Meleniko. In some cases, the Greeks may have lost
their language as a result of living in close proximity with members of
other races, but they never lost their sense of nationality. Greek education
kept that sense alive even when it was delivered in Slav or Vlach.
The area which was incorporated into Greece after the Balkan Wars included
the greater part of the vilayets of the Thessaloniki and Monastir. Over the
next ten to fifteen years (to 1925), tremendous shifts of population took
place and radically altered the ethnological composition of the area. During
the period of wartime (1912-1919), scores of thousands of Bulgarians left
the area, a trend which continued with the departure of 53,000 Bulgarians by
virtue of the agreement for the voluntary exchange of populations between
Greece and Bulgaria. Only the Slav-speakers of western Macedonia remained:
the majority of this population was Greek in terms of national consciousness
and had chosen of their own free will to stay in Greece.
The League of Nations produced the following statistics for Greek Macedonia
in 1926, when the exchange of populations between Greece had also been
completed:
Greeks 1,341,000 88%
Muslims 2,000 0.1%
Bulgarians 77,000 5.1%
Miscellaneous (mostly Jews) 91,000 6.0%
Total 1,511,000
In 1924, within the framework of the League Nations, Greece and Bulgaria
signed a protocol (known as the "Kalfoff- Politis protocol") by which Greece
recognised as Bulgarian the Slav-speaking population which had remained on
its territory. However, there was such an outcry in Greece (while at the
same time Serbia reacted by abrogating the Greek- Serbian Treaty of Alliance
of 1913) that the Greek Parliament refused to ratify the protocol and the
League of Nations released Greece from the obligations which it had
undertaken.
Alexander's name is Greek. The word "Alexandros" is produced from the prefix
alex(=protector) and the word andros(=man) meaning "he who protects men".
The
prefix "alex" can be found in many Greek words today (alexiptoto=parachute,
alexisfairo=bulletproof - all these words have the meaning of protection).
Philip's name is also Greek. It is produced from the prefix Philo(=friendly
to
something) and the word ippos(=horse) meaning the man who is friendly to
horses.
The prefix "philo" and the word "ippos" are also found in many words of
Greek
origin today (philosophy,philology, hippodrome,hippocampus).
The Slavic propaganda insists that ancient Macedonians did not have Greek
names or (in some cases) that only the royal family had Greek names. Here is
a list of names of ordinary Macedonian people,mentioned in history, which
proves once again the falsity of the Slavic arguments.
Ifestionas - Alexander's closest friend
Aristotelis - Famous phiosopher, born in Stageira
Hermias - Philosopher
Anaksarxos - Philosopher
Kalisthenis - Philosopher
Marsias - Writer
Zoilos - Writer
Zeuxis - Painter from Heraclea
Leocharis - Sculptor
Lysippos - Sculptor
Deinokratis - He helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt
Antipatros - Historian
Aristokritos - Actor
Thessalos - Actor, friend of Alexander's
Philotas - Another friend of Alexander's
Argeos - Rival of king Philippos
Pausanias - The man who killed king Philippos
Kassandros - Army general, founded the city of Thessaloniki
Ptolemeos - Army general
Antigonos - Army general
Selefkos - Army general
Arrianos - Cavalary commander
Nearchos - Navy commander
Neoptolemos - Arrmy officer
Python - Army officer
Hippostratos - Army officer
Kleitos - Army officer
Permenion - Army officer
Attalos - Army officer
Aristoboulos - Army officer
Kleitarxos - Army officer
Polycratis - Soldier
Bolon - Soldier
Koinos - Soldier
Xenokratis
Deukalos
Arrhideos
Charidimos
Parmenion
Antiochos
Krateros
Kalas
Perseas
Meleagros
Arpalos
Eumenis
Lyssimachos
Leonatos
Assandros
Memmon
and yes the above names are greek also
Now.....Let's try to decipher
informacii = information
istorijata - history or in Greek Istoria, from the Greek Histor = Knowing,
also
look up Herodotus, the father of History
Main Entry: his暗o斟y
Etymology: Latin historia, from Greek, inquiry, history, from histOr, istOr
knowing, learned; akin to Greek eidenai to know
Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary
kulturata - culture, or Koultoura
politikata - politics, from the Greek polis - city, politis - citizen
Main Entry: pol搏暗ics
Etymology: Greek politika, from neuter plural of politikos political
Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary
Makedonija - Makedonia
"The name of the ancient Macedonians is derived from Macedon, who was the
grandchild of Deukalion, the father of all Greeks. This we may infer from
Hesiod's genealogy. It may be proven that Macedonians spoke Greek since
Macedon,
the ancestor of Macedonians, was a brother of Magnes, the ancestor of
Thessalians, who spoke Greek." (Nicholas Hammond, 1993)
The archaeological discoveries form the Macedonian land are the stongest
proof
that ancient Macedonia was part of the Greek civilization. All the ancient
monuments and inscriptions use the Greek alphabet. Furthermore there is a
large
number of discoveries in Asia in the route of Alexander the Great. All these
monuments, discovered in Pakistan, Kuweit, India and many more countries,
prove
that Alexanders quest was Greek.
but the below makes even greater sense!
President Mr. Kiro Gligorov:
"We are Slavs who came to this area in the sixth century ... we are not
descendants of the ancient Macedonians."
(from the Foreign Information Service Daily Report, Eastern Europe, February
26,
1992, p. 35. )
"We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians. That's who we are! We have
no
connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia. The ancient Macedonians
no
longer exist, they had disappeared from history long time ago. Our ancestors
came here in the 5th and 6th century (A.D)."
(from the Toronto Star newspaper, March 15, 1992)
The following questions arise immediately
Why do you call yourselves Macedonians then?
Why do you use ancient Macedonian symbols if they don't belong to you?
The historic truth is that the Slavs descented into the region not before
the
6th century long after ancient Macedonia was homogenized with the rest of
Greece. They don't have any historical cultural or linguistic ties with
ancient
Macedonia. There is no historic or archaeological evidence connecting them
with
ancient Macedonia.
Now consider the above REAL INFORMACII
here's what it means:
Main Entry: in搭or搶a暗ion
1 : the communication or reception of knowledge or intelligence
2 a (1) : knowledge obtained from investigation, study, or instruction (2) :
INTELLIGENCE, NEWS (3) : FACTS, DATA
Voyager
June R Harton
"George S. Tsapanos" <lyn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020307080734...@mb-mj.aol.com...
You are completely correct, Lyngos, the history of the area is
rife with the truth of your words.
Anastassios Retzios
> aleco54 wrote:
>
> >it evidently doesnt matter in this news group how far into fyorm the
> >"real" macedonia extends. granted that june has declared bitola and
> >surrounding areas to be greek macedonian. any other description is
> >simply drowned in greek nationalism.>
>
> Can 10 years of SKOPIAN Makedonism, overcome 4000 of Hellenic Makedonism?
> Why?
> Because few SLAVS got in power and want to stay in power?
> till the Albanians take over of course.......
George,
I think that you are going to far. In fact, these Slavs have been in
geographic Macedonia as far back as the 6th century AD. Yes, we all
know that they did not describe themselves as Macedonians but utilized
tribal names originally (until the 9th century AD); that later called
themselves Bulgarian; and only in the 20th century the term
"Macedonian" was utilized by a substantial percentage of the
population.
However, semantic games as to how much of the territory of FYROM is
part of classical Macedonia misses the point. It is actually fairly
inconsequencial. I think that wrapping ourselves in a cloud of Greek
nationalism, we cannot see a clear solution. This solution is the
adoption by FYROM of a qualified Macedonia term. As in all conflicts,
one has to pursue a win-win proposition for both parties. The
solution above will make clear (a)FYROM hardly represents all of
Macedonia (b)FYROM represents only a part of tthe Macedonian
experience (c)on the basis of this, FYROM can never make universalist
claims to the whole of Macedonia...etc. I think that you are getting
my drift.
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
> Anastassios wrote:
>
> And how wrong you are,or ignorant of what is happening........
> The SKOPIANS do not want just the NAME, they want with THAT name to convince
> the World that the REST of Makedonia is SKOPIAN.
> THAT what they are teaching to their children for the last 80 years and thats
> why we have two generations of PSEUDOMAKEDONIANS, who finally given the
> opportunity they came out of the closet to call themselves
> as........Makedonians.
> Do you REALLY believe that if we agree on any name INCLUDING the term
> Makedonia, that the SLAVS will stop in there?
> How could they?
Actually, agreeing to a differentiated Macedonia term will put an end
to universalist claims in FYROM. Period. Of course, in a
comprehensive agreement with Greece, the issue of the FYROM
schoolbooks will be raised but after the name issue goes away, thes
super-nationalist aspirations will easily die down and will also
wither as FYROM becomes more stable and it is more and more ready to
discuss some of its nationalist myths.
> Even the report last month was making it CLEAR that SKOPIA and its goverment
> should CHANGE things..........and yet.........we hear NOTHING about that, but
> only about the name.
> We can not make enemies out of the SKOPIANS, they ARE THE ENEMY.
Hmmmmm. I do not necessarily agree. The FYROM position is clearly
defensive, although it appears aggressive and insulting to us. What
if they really decide to examine history objectively? They will have
to accept that for the longest time they described themselves as
Bulgarians and, in fact, in the zenith of this state, the title was
that of a Bulgarian kingdom. If this becomes the "official credo",
what will stop this state of being sucked up by Bulgaria? Is this to
our interest? Should we be blinded by fanatisism?
> They are the SAME Communists, who became Socialists, who for 80 years now
> brainwashed and violated HUMAN RIGHTS, not only of those poor Albanians in
> there, but also of the Greeks.
> They are the SAME BASTARDS and their FAMILIES, that came in FREE MAKEDONIA
> together with the BULGARIAN OCHRANA, to destroy not just the Makedonians, but
> HELLENISM itself.
> Yourself most likely have not gone thru certain ""details"" of that three years
> war, or what took place in those Makedonian mountains.
> We and our families that were there got a taste.
> The SKOPIANS do not deserve any name associated with Makedonia and ALL Hellenes
> should make that clear, AS IT DID THE PASOK GOVERMENT.
> And it is the only policy I like about them.
Hellenism is quite safe in modern Macedonia. So, let's negotiate from
a position of strength but let's be realistic as to what we will be
able to achieve and what is in our interest to achieve (much more
important). The incorporation of FYROM in Bulgaria or Serbia, or even
its partitioning is not in our interest.
ADR
June R Harton
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
> I think that you are going to far. In fact, these Slavs have been in
> geographic Macedonia as far back as the 6th century AD.
I think that is going too far. Anastassios, I am quite aware of the
argument describing that area (FYROM) as part of geographic
Macedonia, but it simply isn't, Evangelos Kofos to the contrary.
When the Greeks, late 17th century, started to refer to the
Western Balkans as Macedonia it was from a Romaion perspective.
That was really relating the name to the _Roman_ Diocese of
Macedonia which itself ceased with the advent of the babarian
tribes in that area end of 6th century AD. And for Modern Greece,
1923 terminated the resurrection of any Romaion Diocese!
The rest of anybody's usage of Macedonia for that region was
associated purely as scams of one sort or another from Austrians
Russians, Bulgarians, etc etc.
Point is, it is not the geographic area of real ancient Greek
Macedonia yet they are using this falsity to falsely claim
association with ancient Macedonians.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
.......The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
June R Harton
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
Frankly, partitioning would be exactly the opposite.
Dorian West
They want it all, but they should get nothing. They should be hit with a
permanent embargo. First one should last 6 months and then 6 months for
everything they do against Greece. If they behave, the 6 month embargo will
still be in force until its expiry date. They could wrack up 6 years of
embargo. So what? Let their fucker pseudo state disappear completely. They
should be reduced as a lesson to the Jews as well. They are in a position of
weakness, no compromises should be made to heathen, commie murderers.
BTW, your kind of mixed up Slav-Greek would be the first ones to get the
chop from those butchering Slavs and probably rightly so. You do show
elements of treason from the Hellenic point of view.
BTW, have you checked out the Jew head on Holbrooke? Revolting, isn't it?
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
alex
> > > Anastassios,
> > > as my family comes from both greek macedonia and fyr macedonia i feel
> > > that the name northern macedonia is quite appropriate.
> >
> > IMO the name "Republic of Slavic Macedonia" would be the most appropriate
> > and decent compromise for both of us... But I have strong doubts that our
> > northern "friends" will ever accept a name like that and here is the proof
> > of their bad faith: they -officially- say that they ask nothing from us and
> > that they are not claiming any relation with ancient Macedonians, but when
> > asked to state their ethnic origin by using the term "Slavic" in their name,
> > they are refusing to do that and stay stacked in the ambiguous term
> > "Macedonija":-)
it has already been stated that a name for the republic with any
ethnic qualifier such as slavic is unacceptable as it does alienate a
large portion of the nation's albanian, turk and gypsy populations. i
agree with Anastassios that most macedonians from the republic would
like to monopolise the name macedonia in order to obtain a full claim
on the macedonian experience, in this instance i suppose you'll just
have to live and let live. at least if it is called republic of
northern macedonia, some elements will still be able to imagine an
ethno-national connection of some sort with greek macedonia in the
south.
cheers, aleco.
>
George S. Tsapanos
>Actually, agreeing to a differentiated Macedonia term will put an end
>to universalist claims in FYROM. Period. Of course, in a
>comprehensive agreement with Greece, the issue of the FYROM
>schoolbooks will be raised but after the name issue goes away, thes
>super-nationalist aspirations will easily die down and will also
>wither as FYROM becomes more stable and it is more and more ready to>discuss
some of its nationalist myths.>
Why not do all this BEFORE any agreements with regards the name?
>Hmmmmm. I do not necessarily agree. The FYROM position is clearly>defensive,
although it appears aggressive and insulting to us. What>if they really decide
to examine history objectively? They will have>to accept that for the longest
time they described themselves as
>Bulgarians and, in fact, in the zenith of this state, the title was
>that of a Bulgarian kingdom. If this becomes the "official credo",
>what will stop this state of being sucked up by Bulgaria? Is this to
>our interest? Should we be blinded by fanatisism?>
In our interests is the name Makedonia first and last. No financial agreements,
no participations in public works in SKOPIA, nothing, absolutely nothing should
be used in order to soften the Greek position.
They....the SKOPIANS, they want recognition by Greece of the name, no by the
World. For as long we say NO, that's it, they don't exist.
>Hellenism is quite safe in modern Macedonia. So, let's negotiate from
>a position of strength but let's be realistic as to what we will be
>able to achieve and what is in our interest to achieve (much more
>important). The incorporation of FYROM in Bulgaria or Serbia, or even
>its partitioning is not in our interest.
>
>ADR>
There is NOTHING to negotiate.The name is not theirs and that's it.
Now........if SOME of those Pelagonian guys wake up one morning and ask to
become part of Greece, that's fine. But.........for the rest of them, like
Albanians and Bulgarians why not let them go where they want, after all why
should we care about more welfare?
A11otrios
<a661ue$ljg$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com>, made the following shapes:
>
> "gogu" <gola...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:a661n9$t85$1...@usenet.otenet.gr...
> >
> > Yes, we don't live in a perfect world:-)
>
> Yes, and gogu ist the best example of it.
>
> Get lost, brainless idiot!!
Why do you mingle were you shouldn't?
If you have problems with gogu send him an email or something.
Org
George S. Tsapanos
>George,
>
>I think that you are going to far. In fact, these Slavs have been in
>geographic Macedonia as far back as the 6th century AD. Yes, we all
>know that they did not describe themselves as Macedonians but utilized>tribal
names originally (until the 9th century AD); that later called>themselves
Bulgarian; and only in the 20th century the term
>"Macedonian" was utilized by a substantial percentage of the
>population.>
SLAVS? They are mixed mutts from all over around, THATS the reason the REAL
Slavs want nothing to do with them, INCUDING the Bulgarians. How can you
generalize the SKOPIAN population with a term like Slavs when an overwhelming
40% of them are CLEARLY Moslem Albanians? Do you REALLY want to give the name
to THEM?
What about the Bulgarians? Do they want to be named "Makedonians", or they
might be much happier if they go with Bulgaria.
Some times blood REALLY speaks in the Balkans and everybody knows what they
WERE and where they wish to GO.
>However, semantic games as to how much of the territory of FYROM is
>part of classical Macedonia misses the point. It is actually fairly
>inconsequencial. I think that wrapping ourselves in a cloud of Greek
>nationalism, we cannot see a clear solution. This solution is the
>adoption by FYROM of a qualified Macedonia term. As in all conflicts,
>one has to pursue a win-win proposition for both parties. The
>solution above will make clear (a)FYROM hardly represents all of
>Macedonia (b)FYROM represents only a part of tthe Macedonian
>experience (c)on the basis of this, FYROM can never make universalist
>claims to the whole of Macedonia...etc. I think that you are getting
>my drift.>
Why should the SKOPIANS connect their existence with the name Makedonia? In
what percentage they have connections? what about the other connections?
The ONLY reason they insist on the name is that they were and are mutts without
any papers and pedigrees, titles of nobility or achivements and they chose the
easy way to get them.
My grand mother was one of the first teachers, teaching in Prilep and her
sister another teacher in Axrida.
Hellenism and Makedonism were NEVER expanded above these areas.
Even around 1900 when all the battles between us and the Bulgars were taking
place, no battle according to Modis papers was ever fought behinf Prilep.
SKOPIA, and SKOPIANS, TETOVO and TETOVARS, were NEVER Makedonians, why make
them and their 80% of the land, Makedonians NOW?
Just because they are forcing upon the World a COLD WAR ERA DE FACTO SITUATION?
If indeed we do look for a solution INCLUDING the name Makedonia, then, one
more time, we should look to the one suggested by me, with the creation of
separate EPARCHIES/ADMINISTRATIVE DEPARTMENTS in SKOPIALAND, one of which, that
of Pelagonia can carry the name MAKEDONIA.
That's it how far I can go, again reflecting on REALITIES and Historical data.
But.........the only reason the SKOPIANS would not go for that, is because
they know that it will mean the division of them and their land.
The IDIOTS, did not realize YET, that such division is coming and sooner or
later ALL of them will be known as KOSSOVARS.
>ADR
gogu
news:MPG.16f3078c7...@news.demon.co.uk...
He has a problem with anybody does not agree with him and his methods:-)
> Org
Anastassios Retzios
> Give them a name with Macedonia in it and you commit more murder of Greeks.
> They want it all, but they should get nothing. They should be hit with a
> permanent embargo. First one should last 6 months and then 6 months for
> everything they do against Greece. If they behave, the 6 month embargo will
> still be in force until its expiry date. They could wrack up 6 years of
> embargo. So what? Let their fucker pseudo state disappear completely. They
> should be reduced as a lesson to the Jews as well. They are in a position of
> weakness, no compromises should be made to heathen, commie murderers.
>
> BTW, your kind of mixed up Slav-Greek would be the first ones to get the
> chop from those butchering Slavs and probably rightly so. You do show
> elements of treason from the Hellenic point of view.
I hope that we "chop" people like you real soon because such fascist
statements are a poison in Greece
ADR
June R Harton
"alex" <ale...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:98b100fc.02030...@posting.google.com...
> it has already been stated that a name for the republic with any
> ethnic qualifier such as slavic is unacceptable as it does alienate a
> large portion of the nation's albanian, turk and gypsy populations. i
> agree with Anastassios that most macedonians
West Bulgarians, Alex
> from the republic would
> like to monopolise the name macedonia in order to obtain a full claim
> on the macedonian experience, in this instance i suppose you'll just
> have to live and let live.
FYROM shall never be allowed anythiing Macedonia, ultimately.
the country shall be a side note in history before we allow
the theft of Greek and Western Civilization's history and heritage.
> at least if it is called republic of
> northern macedonia, some elements will still be able to imagine an
> ethno-national connection of some sort with greek macedonia in the
> south.
That is exactly why my statement above stands.
> cheers, aleco.
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
.......The heart of Macedonia was always Greek
Dorian West
Slavs or Macedonians? What the hell have Slavs got to do with it? I posted
earlier that Macedonia stretched from the Danube to India and that
Pakistanis have more right than Slavs to call themselves Macedonians, even
Afghanis, for they intermarried with conquering Greeks. The Slavs do not
live in any part of Macedonia because Macedonia is where Macedonians rule
the roost and that happens to be solely within the confines of the Hellenic
Democracy, at this stage of world history.
We know the Slavs renamed Vardaska into Macedonia in 1944 so cut the comedy
show and get real and don't give me this Geographic Macedonia crap.
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:EW_h8.426$m95.54...@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com...
Dorian West
happens Grkoman-Turk, that is what the tsigani donkey fuckers call Greeks
isn't it?
Why are my statements poison? Every Greek I talk to down here agrees. 100%,
from a sample of 100s.
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
Turko-Bulgar-SlavSlayer
face of the Earth. Then we wouldn't have to put up with their commie,
propaganda shit. Hitler should've been turning them into soap.
May Alexander resurrect and rid the world of them all.
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.02030...@posting.google.com...
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
>
> Hahahahahahaha
> Why not tell us whatis and who is speaking ""Arumani"" and then........tell us
> about the "Sarakatsani" language please.
If you want to deny your lown Vlach heritage, go ahead. Meanwhile, you cannot
refute my piont which is that the Republic of Macedonia is the ONLY country to
foster Vlach languages and culture. As to the Greek attitude toward Vlachs, which
you espouse, you have only to think about the Bletsas case. Being someone
promoting Vlach heritage in Greece is a dangerous proposition.
Galina
>
>
> Regards to all ..................L.
> "Vlachs, The Autochthonous
not proven
++
Please clarify a couple of your racist statements below:
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
> SLAVS? They are mixed mutts from all over around, THATS the reason the REAL
> Slavs want nothing to do with them, INCUDING the Bulgarians.
Are you implying that being of mixed heritage (you yourself being half Greek, half
Vlach should have mitigated against such a statement - Do you despise half of
yourself?) is somehow negative? Are you striving for some kind of ethnic
"purity"? Is this why you insist so strongly that Vlachs must be Greeks?
> How can you
> generalize the SKOPIAN population with a term like Slavs when an overwhelming
> 40% of them are CLEARLY Moslem Albanians?
Less than 23%. Check your data.
> Do you REALLY want to give the name
> to THEM?
Are you racist against Albanians, too?
>
> What about the Bulgarians? Do they want to be named "Makedonians", or they
> might be much happier if they go with Bulgaria.
> Some times blood REALLY speaks in the Balkans and everybody knows what they
> WERE and where they wish to GO.
>
>
Maqcedonians are content to be Macedonians, when someone else isn't patronizingly
telling Macedonians which ethnicity they ought to be.
>
>
> Why should the SKOPIANS connect their existence with the name Makedonia?
It could be becuase Skopjek is the capitol of Macedonia.
> In
> what percentage they have connections? what about the other connections?
> The ONLY reason they insist on the name is that they were and are mutts without
> any papers and pedigrees, titles of nobility or achivements and they chose the
> easy way to get them.
Your term MUTT is racist. Kind;ly desist from using racist terminology
>
> My grand mother was one of the first teachers, teaching in Prilep and her sister
> another teacher in Axrida.
Teaching Greek in a Greek school? Did they speak Vlahika?
>
> Hellenism and Makedonism were NEVER expanded above these areas.
Hellenism, no. Being Macedonian yes
>
> Even around 1900 when all the battles between us and the Bulgars were taking
> place, no battle according to Modis papers was ever fought behinf Prilep.
Modis is n0t the be all and endl all of history, being a popularizing author with a
stated propagandistic bent.
>
> SKOPIA, and SKOPIANS, TETOVO and TETOVARS, were NEVER Makedonians, why make
> them and their 80% of the land, Makedonians NOW?
> Just because they are forcing upon the World a COLD WAR ERA DE FACTO SITUATION?
> If indeed we do look for a solution INCLUDING the name Makedonia, then, one
> more time, we should look to the one suggested by me, with the creation of
> separate EPARCHIES/ADMINISTRATIVE DEPARTMENTS in SKOPIALAND, one of which, that
> of Pelagonia can carry the name MAKEDONIA.
> That's it how far I can go, again reflecting on REALITIES and Historical data.
> But.........the only reason the SKOPIANS would not go for that, is because
> they know that it will mean the division of them and their land.
> The IDIOTS, did not realize YET, that such division is coming and sooner or
> later ALL of them will be known as KOSSOVARS.
Thankfully, few agree with your viewpoint
++
Anastassios Retzios wrote:
>
> George,
>
> You yourself know that you are wrong here. There is one maxim in
> international politics. Do not make enemies unnecessarily.
good point
> For the
> time being, we are the agrieved party.
I don't see how you can support such an assertion. Did Macedonia impose oil embargoes and economic sanctions
against the Hellenic Republic. No!
> However, if FYROM
no such place
> offers a
> compromise and if this compromise is rebuffed, then we will have made
> a major blunder. Thank God, they are less astute than you and we are
> quite safe in this regard.
What leads you to such a conclusion?
> As Theodorakis put it in another issue: we
> have a good hate going, why spoil it???
Because it is inappropriate and damaging to both sides.
>
>
> ADR
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
>
> The SKOPIANS do not deserve any name associated with Makedonia and ALL Hellenes
> should make that clear, AS IT DID THE PASOK GOVERMENT.
No, there has been enough negative manipulation of Greeks by their political
parties.
>
> And it is the only policy I like about them.
hmmm? Really?
++
Anastassios Retzios wrote:
Anastasios,
Occasionally, you remind the newgroup that you have real morals and ethics.
Galina
George S. Tsapanos
>George,
>
>Please clarify a couple of your racist statements below:>
Sure!
>Are you implying that being of mixed heritage (you yourself being half
Greek,>half>Vlach should have mitigated against such a statement - Do you
despise half of>yourself?) is somehow negative? Are you striving for some kind
of ethnic>"purity"? Is this why you insist so strongly that Vlachs must be
Greeks?>
Vlachs ARE Hellenes. Only people like you with your Anti-Hellenism should thing
otherwise.
Here another lesson for you by your favored Vlachian speaker Professor Tom
Winnifrith, from:
http://www.farsarotul.org/nl23_5.htm.
""......Again and again looking for an ancient origin for Vlachs in
southwestern Albania, either near Sarandė or along the Drino valley near
Gjirokaster or along the Vjosė river near Permet, I heard the magic if
disappointing word Kephalovriso..........""
Now.........why Winnifrith should be looking for ANCIENT VLACHIAN ORIGINS,
precisely in the places where HELLENISM WAS FIRST CREATED, ah? Why not look for
ancient origins in.........Romania for example?
Now.......even if somehow you don't consider the Vlachs as Hellenes, and since
BOTH parents were of VLACHIAN origins, and we talked about it already, that
will make me 100% Vlach and in that case you must discover what makes someone
like me 100% Vlach, a PURE HELLENE too.
>Less than 23%. Check your data.>
The Albanians do have the 40%, that's why the World takes them so seriously
including the SKOPIAN SLAVOMUTTS.
But...........let say that the figure of only 23% is right, take out the Serbs,
Bulgars, Greeks, Turks, Gypsies and those Vlachs that you want them as a
different Ethnicity, and tell me HOW MANY SKOPIAN MUTTS you will be left with.
>Are you racist against Albanians, too?>
Are you replying to your own question?
>Maqcedonians are content to be Macedonians, when someone else
isn't>patronizingly
>telling Macedonians which ethnicity they ought to be.>
We know that, I am one of them, the problem in here are those SKOPIANMUTTS,
WISHING to be known as........."Makedonians".
Again.........take your other ETHNICITIES and lets see how many of those MUTTS
wish to be known as........."Makedonians" ( of course they will be all in
power).
>It could be becuase Skopjek is the capitol of Macedonia.>
SKOPIA was always a MUTTS HOLE, nothing more nothing less. The capital of
Makedonia is Thessaloniki you like it or not.
You are OFFENDING the Makedonians, by even SUGGESTING that SKOPIA is their
capital. Only LEECHES live in there, wannabe "Makedonians".
>Your term MUTT is racist. Kind;ly desist from using racist terminology>
Ha..........NOBODY likes them, INCLUDING, Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians and
Albanians. Did you ever ask yourself .........WHY?
>Teaching Greek in a Greek school? Did they speak Vlahika?>
Sure they were and again sure they were as they were also speaking French and
Turkish. Most of the Vlachs speak at least 2-3 languages, and my family ....yes
....they were among the first to teach the Greek language in Greek schools in
the late 1800 MAKEDONIA.
>Hellenism, no. Being Macedonian yes>
Hahahaha.........the SKOPIAN MUTTS do not care about Makedonism or
Alexander.........all they want is a place in the sun, front row if possible,
with plenty pedigrees and diplomas of undone achivements.
>Modis is n0t the be all and endl all of history, being a popularizing
author>with a>stated propagandistic bent.>
What do you know of him or his books other than what I translated?
>Thankfully, few agree with your viewpoint>
Thankfully NOBODY with yours.
Anastassios Retzios
> Anastassios Retzios wrote:
>
> >
> > George,
> >
> > You yourself know that you are wrong here. There is one maxim in
> > international politics. Do not make enemies unnecessarily.
>
> good point
>
> > For the
> > time being, we are the agrieved party.
>
> I don't see how you can support such an assertion. Did Macedonia impose oil embargoes and economic sanctions
> against the Hellenic Republic. No!
You make it sound like Greece is staging embargoes just for laughs.
Actually, this was a response to a unique provocation and you know all
the elements of this provocation. The Greek response was minimal. I
suggest that you examine the politics that you support a little more
closely.
> > However, if FYROM
>
> no such place
Stop silly entries. You know that legally this is the place
> > offers a
> > compromise and if this compromise is rebuffed, then we will have made
> > a major blunder. Thank God, they are less astute than you and we are
> > quite safe in this regard.
>
> What leads you to such a conclusion?
The idiotic policies of the Skopje goverment, what else?. Reaching a
compromise with Greece, reviving cross border traffic and trade,
involving Greece in the security of the country (which is to the
interest of Greece) would be a major benefit on all fronts for FYROM.
However, there is a strong adhesion to adversarial policies with
Greece with disastrous results. Who can be the major trade partner
for FYROM? Who is interested in the integrity of FYROM? Who can move
substantial capital in FYROM? I think that you know the answer to all
of these. The compromise will be a serious compromise for many in
Greece as well. It cannot and should not be seen as "accepting Greek
demands". I am certain that many in Skopje see the stupidity of
maintaining a fiction on made-up assertions that cannot stand close
inspection. Unfortunately, they are more likely to end up in prison
than be heard. So, these are the facts that make me say that FYROM
itself is the best ally of Greek supernationalists.
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
> Galina wrote:
>
> >George,
> >
> >Please clarify a couple of your racist statements below:>
>
> Sure!
>
> >Are you implying that being of mixed heritage (you yourself being half
> Greek,>half>Vlach should have mitigated against such a statement - Do you
> despise half of>yourself?) is somehow negative? Are you striving for some kind
> of ethnic>"purity"? Is this why you insist so strongly that Vlachs must be
> Greeks?>
>
> Vlachs ARE Hellenes.
Not necessarily. Oh, and by the way, Hellenes does not necessarily equate with
Greeks.
> Only people like you with your Anti-Hellenism
I am not in the least anti-Hellenic, however you define the term
> should thing otherwise. Here another lesson for you by your favored Vlachian
> speaker Professor Tom
> Winnifrith, from:
> http://www.farsarotul.org/nl23_5.htm.
>
> ""......Again and again looking for an ancient origin for Vlachs in
> southwestern Albania, either near SarandЪ or along the Drino valley near
> Gjirokaster or along the VjosЪ river near Permet, I heard the magic if
> disappointing word Kephalovriso..........""
>
> Now.........why Winnifrith should be looking for ANCIENT VLACHIAN ORIGINS,
> precisely in the places where HELLENISM WAS FIRST CREATED, ah? Why not look for
> ancient origins in.........Romania for example?
Dear George, antiquity does not equal ethnicity. Vlachs are not Greeks. They may
or may not be in the Balkan peninsula in ancient times but that does not make them
Greek. Rather, evidence (read the farsarotul website more comprehensively, buy
WInnifrith's book and read it, etc.etc.) is to the contrary.
>
> Now.......even if somehow you don't consider the Vlachs as Hellenes,
Uh huh.
> and since BOTH parents were of VLACHIAN origins, and we talked about it already,
> that
> will make me 100% Vlach and in that case you must discover what makes someone
> like me 100% Vlach, a PURE HELLENE too.
No, in my view that would make you 100% Vlach and 0% Greek. Sure yer mom's a
Vlahinka?
>
>
> >Less than 23%. Check your data.>
>
> The Albanians do have the 40%, that's why the World takes them so seriously
> including the SKOPIAN SLAVOMUTTS.
There was an internationally conducted census that suggests otherwise.
>
> But...........let say that the figure of only 23% is right, take out the Serbs,
> Bulgars, Greeks, Turks, Gypsies and those Vlachs that you want them as a
> different Ethnicity, and tell me HOW MANY SKOPIAN MUTTS you will be left with.
None. The term Skopian mutt is offensive.
>
>
> >Are you racist against Albanians, too?>
>
> Are you replying to your own question?
>
> >Macedonians are content to be Macedonians, when someone else
> isn't>patronizingly
> >telling Macedonians which ethnicity they ought to be.>
>
> We know that, I am one of them, the problem in here are those SKOPIANMUTTS,
no such thing
>
> WISHING to be known as........."Makedonians".
> Again.........take your other ETHNICITIES and lets see how many of those MUTTS
Please don't use racist terms
>
> wish to be known as........."Makedonians" ( of course they will be all in
> power).
>
> >It could be becuase Skopjek is the capitol of Macedonia.>
>
> SKOPIA was always a MUTTS HOLE,
Please don't use racist and offensive terminology. It adds nothing to the
discussion
> nothing more nothing less. The capital of
> Makedonia is Thessaloniki you like it or not.
Of course Solun is an extremely important Macedonian city. Never suggested
otherwise
>
> You are OFFENDING the Makedonians, by even SUGGESTING that SKOPIA is their
> capital. Only LEECHES live in there, wannabe "Makedonians".
Watch that racist and disgusting terminology. It does not help you make points
with rational people.
>
>
> >Your term MUTT is racist. Kind;ly desist from using racist terminology>
>
> Ha..........NOBODY likes them, INCLUDING, Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians and
> Albanians. Did you ever ask yourself .........WHY?
People don't like racism
>
>
> >Teaching Greek in a Greek school? Did they speak Vlahika?>
>
> Sure they were and again sure they were as they were also speaking French and
> Turkish. Most of the Vlachs speak at least 2-3 languages, and my family ....yes
> ....they were among the first to teach the Greek language in Greek schools in
> the late 1800 MAKEDONIA.
Uh, VLahika is not used officially, and not in school
>
>
> >Hellenism, no. Being Macedonian yes>
>
> Hahahaha.........the SKOPIAN MUTTS do not care about Makedonism or
> Alexander.........all they want is a place in the sun, front row if possible,
> with plenty pedigrees and diplomas of undone achivements.
racist statement
>
>
> >Modis is n0t the be all and end all of history, being a popularizing
> author with a stated propagandistic bent.>
>
> What do you know of him or his books other than what I translated?
George, he is pretty well known for what he is (and isn't)
George S. Tsapanos
>Not necessarily. Oh, and by the way, Hellenes does not necessarily equat=
>e with>Greeks.>
So......that's what bothers you.....the differenciation between Hellenes and
Greeks.........but that is for internal consuption only and not for external
propaganda.
As we say in Greece, ALL Vlachs are HELLENES, not all Hellenes are Vlachs.
Now digest this and live with it.
>I am not in the least anti-Hellenic, however you define the term>
Every person pro-SKOPIAN considering the name Makedonia as belonging to them is
a de facto anti-Hellenic
.>Dear George, antiquity does not equal ethnicity. Vlachs are not Greeks. =>
They may>or may not be in the Balkan peninsula in ancient times but that does
not =>make them
>Greek. Rather, evidence (read the farsarotul website more comprehensivel=>y,
buy>WInnifrith's book and read it, etc.etc.) is to the contrary.>
The older the Ethnicity, the more connected to the people of the land, and vice
versa.
The Vlachs of Greece are the ancient Makedonian populations from the Pindus
mountains, which began speaking an idiom which was adopted in different ways by
many others within the Balkans.
All those others initially and more or less till the French Revolution were
associated with nomadic and/or pastoral societies holding the local power and
gold, since there were not too many other professions.
The double meaning of the term began only after territorial claims and
political aims, and since a certain profession can not be used for such
achivements, the COMMON language/idioms were used. And since the most succeded
nomad/Vlachs, were those from the Hellenic peninsula and their children, and
since annexation plans were intended about Makedonia, using the LANGUAGEby now,
most of those territorials annexations were aimed against Greece.
But by now, Winnifrith and everyone else, realized that the Vlachs of the
Pindus mountains, being called Greek, Albanian or SKOPIANS, they ALL belonged
to the SAME ANCIENT GROUP with roots in those mountains, rivers and lakes where
ANCIENT HELLENISM WAS BORN.
Their problem ?
They still try to present under the spectrum of the aftermath of Berlin,
Bukurest, and San Stefano treaties, all those populations, but they are FINALLY
realizing that the power of the people is above their good wishes.
How can one have Albanian Vlachs when those people still live in the same
places baring names 3000 years old?
How can we have SKOPIAN Vlachs, when they clearly as second language they were
and are speaking the HELLENIC language living in the same lands, under the same
names mentioned by Liby?
If you go in that Farsalotul site and check out their newsletters, an
overwhelming 90% deals with Vlachs living in the area where myself and others
have always claimed as the CRADDLE of Hellenism.
Coincedence?
Maybe, but then.......why 90% of those newsletters don't speak about Romanian
or Chinese Vlachs, let alone the place of their ANCIENT ORIGINS.
>Uh huh.>
Uh huh....or not, you like it or not, the truth that the ORIGINAL VLACHS are
those Makedonians from the Pindus mountains can not change and you can do
nothing about it.
Just learn to love it and live with it.
>No, in my view that would make you 100% Vlach and 0% Greek. Sure yer mom=>'s
a>Vlahinka?>
I don't care about YOUR view, you can consider me even as a Chinese as far
concerms me. The fact is that my family from both sides and for at least 20
generations are from the Pindus mountains were the ETHNOS MAKEDNON was created
from the original FIRST HELLENES.
>There was an internationally conducted census that suggests otherwise.>
Oh when? Give us those FACTS so we can compare them.
>None. The term Skopian mutt is offensive.>
Thank God there are not too many to be left if you take out Greks, Albanians,
Bulgarians, Turks, Gypsies and few more..................
But the point is, that there are those few causing all the troubles.
>no such thing>
The World as well most of the people living in there do realize that such
people do exist.
And that's why most of them begin calling themselves with other names and began
the search of ETHNICALLY PURE HAVENS according to the plans of their
Academians.
>Please don't use racist terms>
Tell me Galina..........HOW DO YOU WISH ME TO CALL the leftovers that will
remain if you subtract the Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Turks and
Gypsies?
HOW?
>Please don't use racist and offensive terminology. It adds nothing to
th=>e>discussion>
Did you ever think how OFFENSIVE IS AGAINST US FOR YOU TO USE THE TERM
MAKEDONIA?
>Of course Solun is an extremely important Macedonian city. Never
suggest=>ed>otherwise>
You see where your RACISM is sparkling? You want Thessaloniki to be known by
its SLAV name.
Well...........come.........take it.........and re mane it.
Till that day it will be Thessaloniki.
>Watch that racist and disgusting terminology. It does not help you make
=>pointswith rational people.>
Who cares about making points with people!
I want to put down as much as possible those THIEFS from SKOPIA.
>People don't like racism>
Good for you..........and in this case the RACISTS are the SKOPIANS attempting
to SLAVIZE and ALBANIZE the name of Makedonia.
>Uh, VLahika is not used officially, and not in school>
WHY in Gods name they should? Don't you think that it is US to decide what we
want to use in our schools?
Where do you see your MINORITIES what is the DEFINITION of one, and what are
their NUMBERS?
Why should we teach our children a DEAD language that will take precious time
of their lives......WHY ?
>racist statement>
Fine with me, but not as strong as naming SKOPIALAND as Makedonia.
>George, he is pretty well known for what he is (and isn't)>
Modis is one of the VERY FEW true names that took place in the Makedonian
struggle and wrote about it.
Not only this but he never modified situations in order to prove his points.
A11otrios
following shapes:
>
> "George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
>
> > Galina wrote:
> >
> > >George,
> > >
> > >Please clarify a couple of your racist statements below:>
> >
> > Sure!
> >
> > >Are you implying that being of mixed heritage (you yourself being half=
>
> > Greek,>half>Vlach should have mitigated against such a statement - Do y=
> ou
> > despise half of>yourself?) is somehow negative? Are you striving for s=
> ome kind
> > of ethnic>"purity"? Is this why you insist so strongly that Vlachs mus=
> t be
> > Greeks?>
> >
> > Vlachs ARE Hellenes.
>
> Not necessarily. Oh, and by the way, Hellenes does not necessarily equat=
> e with
> Greeks.
Oh! I can see it know! The Macedonians are Hellenes but the Greeks
aren't!!!!
Brilliant. I was getting tired reading the same stupidities you Skopjans
repeat again and again. You needed a new joke :)
> > Only people like you with your Anti-Hellenism
>
> I am not in the least anti-Hellenic, however you define the term
I would define it as ...you!
> >
> > But...........let say that the figure of only 23% is right, take out th=
> e Serbs,
> > Bulgars, Greeks, Turks, Gypsies and those Vlachs that you want them as =
> a
> > different Ethnicity, and tell me HOW MANY SKOPIAN MUTTS you will be lef=
> t with.
>
> None. The term Skopian mutt is offensive.
To mutts. I agree.
> > >Are you racist against Albanians, too?>
> >
> > Are you replying to your own question?
> >
> > >Macedonians are content to be Macedonians, when someone else
> > isn't>patronizingly
> > >telling Macedonians which ethnicity they ought to be.>
> >
> > We know that, I am one of them, the problem in here are those SKOPIANMU=
> TTS,
>
> no such thing
Just Skopians :)
> > WISHING to be known as........."Makedonians".
> > Again.........take your other ETHNICITIES and lets see how many of thos=
> e MUTTS
>
> Please don't use racist terms
Mutt is not a racist term. It means dog. Ugly dog too. :)
> > wish to be known as........."Makedonians" ( of course they will be all=
> in
> > power).
> >
> > >It could be becuase Skopjek is the capitol of Macedonia.>
> >
> > SKOPIA was always a MUTTS HOLE,
>
> Please don't use racist and offensive terminology. It adds nothing to th=
> e discussion
Oh! Is that you use it all the time?
> > nothing more nothing less. The capital of
> > Makedonia is Thessaloniki you like it or not.
>
> Of course Solun is an extremely important Macedonian city. Never suggest=
> ed otherwise
Solun? What's that? A far west bar? Get real. The town was always
Thessaloniki or shortened Saloniki. I have maps to prove that. The only
people that call it Solun (which means nothing of course) are the
Skopians. You also call Monastiri Vitola.
> > You are OFFENDING the Makedonians, by even SUGGESTING that SKOPIA is th=
> > eir capital. Only LEECHES live in there, wannabe "Makedonians".
>
> Watch that racist and disgusting terminology. It does not help you make =
> points with rational people.
It's not racist. It's a good metaphor. Skopians are LEECHES that draw on
the blood of Hellenic History.
> > >Your term MUTT is racist. Kind;ly desist from using racist terminolog=
> > >y
> >
> > Ha..........NOBODY likes them, INCLUDING, Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbians =
> and Albanians. Did you ever ask yourself .........WHY?
>
> People don't like racism
Tell that to your people who's been killing Albanians by the hundreds.
> >
> > >Hellenism, no. Being Macedonian yes>
> >
> > Hahahaha.........the SKOPIAN MUTTS do not care about Makedonism or
> > Alexander.........all they want is a place in the sun, front row if pos=
> > sible, with plenty pedigrees and diplomas of undone achivements.
>
> racist statement
Nope. Reality.
> > >Modis is n0t the be all and end all of history, being a popularizing
> > author with a stated propagandistic bent.>
> >
> > What do you know of him or his books other than what I translated?
>
> George, he is pretty well known for what he is (and isn't)
Oh yeah? Why don't you quote someone about him then?
Org
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote
>
> So......that's what bothers you.....
Doesn't bother me
> the differenciation between Hellenes and
> Greeks.........but that is for internal consuption only and not for external
> propaganda.
> As we say in Greece, ALL Vlachs are HELLENES, not all Hellenes are Vlachs.
> Now digest this and live with it.
propaganda against a separate Vlah identity and culture.
> Every person pro-SKOPIAN considering the name Makedonia as belonging to them is
> a de facto anti-Hellenic
your irresponsible suggestion
> .>Dear George, antiquity does not equal ethnicity. Vlachs are not Greeks. =>
> They may>or may not be in the Balkan peninsula in ancient times but that does
> not =>make them
> >Greek. Rather, evidence (read the farsarotul website more comprehensivel=>y,
> buy>WInnifrith's book and read it, etc.etc.) is to the contrary.>
>
> The older the Ethnicity, the more connected to the people of the land, and vice
> versa.
> The Vlachs of Greece are the ancient Makedonian populations from the Pindus
> mountains, which began speaking an idiom which was adopted in different ways by
> many others within the Balkans.
your theory
>
> All those others initially and more or less till the French Revolution were
> associated with nomadic and/or pastoral societies holding the local power and
> gold, since there were not too many other professions.
Where is the evidence of Vlach language before the 10th century in the area?
>
> The double meaning of the term began only after territorial claims and
> political aims, and since a certain profession can not be used for such
> achivements, the COMMON language/idioms were used. And since the most succeded
> nomad/Vlachs, were those from the Hellenic peninsula and their children, and
> since annexation plans were intended about Makedonia, using the LANGUAGEby now,
> most of those territorials annexations were aimed against Greece.
> But by now, Winnifrith and everyone else, realized that the Vlachs of the
> Pindus mountains, being called Greek, Albanian or SKOPIANS, they ALL belonged
> to the SAME ANCIENT GROUP with roots in those mountains, rivers and lakes where
> ANCIENT HELLENISM WAS BORN.
You cannot equate Greeks with either Hellenism or ancient ethnography in that area
>
> Their problem ?
> They still try to present under the spectrum of the aftermath of Berlin,
> Bukurest, and San Stefano treaties, all those populations, but they are FINALLY
> realizing that the power of the people is above their good wishes.
> How can one have Albanian Vlachs when those people still live in the same
> places baring names 3000 years old?
Because they are Vlasi
>
> How can we have SKOPIAN Vlachs, when they clearly as second language they were
> and are speaking the HELLENIC language living in the same lands, under the same
> names mentioned by Liby?
Livy, and Vlahika is not an Hellenic language
>
> If you go in that Farsalotul site and check out their newsletters, an
> overwhelming 90% deals with Vlachs living in the area where myself and others
> have always claimed as the CRADDLE of Hellenism.
That website does not suggest in any way that Vlahs are Greeks
>
> Coincedence?
> Maybe, but then.......why 90% of those newsletters don't speak about Romanian
> or Chinese Vlachs, let alone the place of their ANCIENT ORIGINS.
There is a small article on Romanian Vlasi in one of the newsletters.
>
>
> >Uh huh.>
>
> Uh huh....or not, you like it or not, the truth that the ORIGINAL VLACHS are
> those Makedonians from the Pindus mountains can not change and you can do
> nothing about it.
> Just learn to love it and live with it.
I didn't claim that Vlasi are not Macedonian, in part. I did claim they are not
Greek in origin
>
>
> >No, in my view that would make you 100% Vlach and 0% Greek. Sure yer mom=>'s
> a>Vlahinka?>
>
> I don't care about YOUR view, you can consider me even as a Chinese as far
> concerms me. The fact is that my family from both sides and for at least 20
> generations are from the Pindus mountains were the ETHNOS MAKEDNON was created
> from the original FIRST HELLENES.
You are equating apples and oranges
>
>
> >There was an internationally conducted census that suggests otherwise.>
>
> Oh when? Give us those FACTS so we can compare them.
1994. I've posted on it here at least ten or so times. Not going to post it
again.
>
>
> >None. The term Skopian mutt is offensive.>
>
> Thank God there are not too many to be left if you take out Greks, Albanians,
> Bulgarians, Turks, Gypsies and few more..................
> But the point is, that there are those few causing all the troubles.
>
> >no such thing>
>
> The World as well most of the people living in there do realize that such
> people do exist.
> And that's why most of them begin calling themselves with other names and began
> the search of ETHNICALLY PURE HAVENS according to the plans of their
> Academians.
>
> >Please don't use racist terms>
>
> Tell me Galina..........HOW DO YOU WISH ME TO CALL the leftovers that will
> remain if you subtract the Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Turks and
> Gypsies?
There ared no peoples anywhere that I would disgrace with the term "leftovers".
Rephrase the question and I will consider an appropriate response.
>
> HOW?
>
> >Please don't use racist and offensive terminology. It adds nothing to
> th=>e>discussion>
>
> Did you ever think how OFFENSIVE IS AGAINST US FOR YOU TO USE THE TERM
> MAKEDONIA?
Nothing offensive at all.
>
>
> >Of course Solun is an extremely important Macedonian city. Never
> suggested otherwise>
>
> You see where your RACISM is sparkling? You want Thessaloniki to be known by
> its SLAV name.
Solun is not a Slavic name.
>
> Well...........come.........take it.........and re mane it.
> Till that day it will be Thessaloniki.
It is also Salonika and Thessaloniki. Depends who is speaking.
>
>
> >Watch that racist and disgusting terminology. It does not help you make
> =>pointswith rational people.>
>
> Who cares about making points with people!
> I want to put down as much as possible those THIEFS from SKOPIA.
Who are those? Oh, by the way, misspelling and fractured English do not sell your
points. Nor do they look credible since your normal English is grammatical and
spelled correctly.
>
>
> >People don't like racism>
>
> Good for you..........and in this case the RACISTS are the SKOPIANS attempting
> to SLAVIZE and ALBANIZE the name of Makedonia.
>
> >Uh, VLahika is not used officially, and not in school>
>
> WHY in Gods name they should?
Preserving the unique language and customs of Vlah heritage should be a goal,
especially as an endangered people.
> Don't you think that it is US to decide what we
> want to use in our schools?
> Where do you see your MINORITIES what is the DEFINITION of one, and what are
> their NUMBERS?
> Why should we teach our children a DEAD language that will take precious time
> of their lives......WHY ?
The language and its major dialects, despite the efforts of the Greek state, is
not, thankfully, dead.
>
>
> >racist statement>
>
> Fine with me, but not as strong as naming SKOPIALAND as Makedonia.
>
> >George, he is pretty well known for what he is (and isn't)>
>
> Modis is one of the VERY FEW true names that took place in the Makedonian
> struggle and wrote about it. Not only this but he never modified situations in
> order to prove his points.
You are suggesting that Modis did not denigrates other sides besides the Greek for
the periods he wrote about? Not how he reads. He is amusing, but he is slanted
and biased.
++
Anastassios Retzios wrote:
>
> > > For the
> > > time being, we are the agrieved party.
> >
> > I don't see how you can support such an assertion. Did Macedonia impose oil embargoes and economic sanctions
> > against the Hellenic Republic. No!
>
> You make it sound like Greece is staging embargoes just for laughs.
Not at all. I am suggesting that it was a regionally destablizing and wrong policy.
>
> Actually, this was a response to a unique provocation
There was literally no provocation.
> and you know all
> the elements of this provocation. The Greek response was minimal. I
> suggest that you examine the politics that you support a little more
> closely.
The EU found against Greek policy in court
>
>
> > > However, if FYROM
> >
> > no such place
>
> Stop silly entries. You know that legally this is the place
I know quite well that legally it is not.
>
> >
> > What leads you to such a conclusion?
>
> The idiotic policies of the Skopje goverment, what else?. Reaching a
> compromise with Greece, reviving cross border traffic and trade,
> involving Greece in the security of the country (which is to the
> interest of Greece) would be a major benefit on all fronts for FYROM.
It would have been to the benefit of Greece not to have initiated this quarrel in the first place, embargoes in the
second and economic sanctions in the third place.
>
> However, there is a strong adhesion to adversarial policies with
> Greece with disastrous results. Who can be the major trade partner
> for FYROM? Who is interested in the integrity of FYROM? Who can move
> substantial capital in FYROM? I think that you know the answer to all
> of these. The compromise will be a serious compromise for many in
> Greece as well. It cannot and should not be seen as "accepting Greek
> demands". I am certain that many in Skopje see the stupidity of
> maintaining a fiction on made-up assertions that cannot stand close
> inspection. Unfortunately, they are more likely to end up in prison
> than be heard. So, these are the facts that make me say that FYROM
> itself is the best ally of Greek supernationalists.
It is amusing to me that you used to pride yourself in being able to use the terms Macedonia and Macedonians, as
did Stavros. Perhaps in your advanced age you are pining after the approval of teenaged Greek netnazis isntead of
enjoying your former occasional reputation as a somewhat reasonable poster?
>
>
> > > As Theodorakis put it in another issue: we
> > > have a good hate going, why spoil it???
> >
> > Because it is inappropriate and damaging to both sides.
I reiterate
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > ADR
Yannis
Learn that ALL Greeks feel Hellenes and ALL Hellenes feel Greeks.
There are three glorious names for Greece: Greece, Hellas and Yunan !
Hellas = the land of the light in Greek,
Greece from Homeric Graios from Greek geros ( = awarded, old man )
Yunan from Greek Ionian the inhabitant of Greek Ionia, western Asia Minor !!
If we have a big civilization to the north of us we could have a forth name:
Macedonians !!!
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote:
....................................
Not necessarily. Oh, and by the way, Hellenes does not necessarily equate
with
Greeks.
.................................
A11otrios
>
>
> "George S. Tsapanos" wrote
>
> >
>
> 1994. I've posted on it here at least ten or so times. Not going to post it
> again.
>
BAAAAAAHA HH AH AH AHH AH A the automated answering machine just kicked
in AH HAHAH H A HA HA HA HH AH AH
Get a life dude :)
> > Tell me Galina..........HOW DO YOU WISH ME TO CALL the leftovers that will
> > remain if you subtract the Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Turks and
> > Gypsies?
>
> There ared no peoples anywhere that I would disgrace with the term "leftovers".
> Rephrase the question and I will consider an appropriate response.
I translate. nObGalina: "Cat ate my tongue."
> > >Please don't use racist and offensive terminology. It adds nothing to
> > th=>e>discussion>
> >
> > Did you ever think how OFFENSIVE IS AGAINST US FOR YOU TO USE THE TERM
> > MAKEDONIA?
>
> Nothing offensive at all.
Idiot. He said "AGAINST US". Sheesh!
> > You see where your RACISM is sparkling? You want Thessaloniki to be known by
> > its SLAV name.
>
> Solun is not a Slavic name.
It is Bulgarian. The city was always Thessaloniki. Even the Turks were
calling it that. It is marked as Thessaloniki in ancient maps. There is
no map in the world that names it Solun! Solun means nothing.
Actually it means that your ancestors are so primitive that could not
pronounce even the shortened name "Saloniki".
> > Well...........come.........take it.........and re mane it.
> > Till that day it will be Thessaloniki.
>
> It is also Salonika and Thessaloniki. Depends who is speaking.
Saloniki shortened. Salonika comes from the way English people pronounced
the "ki" (kie).
Do you suggest we should start calling Berlin "Verolino"? hehehehehhe
> Who are those? Oh, by the way, misspelling and fractured English do not sell your
> points. Nor do they look credible since your normal English is grammatical and
> spelled correctly.
Heehhe ehehe. Look who's talking :)
"...your normal English is grammatical" heheh eh eh he he he
> > >People don't like racism>
> >
> > Good for you..........and in this case the RACISTS are the SKOPIANS attempting
> > to SLAVIZE and ALBANIZE the name of Makedonia.
> >
> > >Uh, VLahika is not used officially, and not in school>
> >
> > WHY in Gods name they should?
>
> Preserving the unique language and customs of Vlah heritage should be a goal,
> especially as an endangered people.
Ah! Is that why you weren't teaching Albanian in Skopialand until they
shoved a pole up your arses?
> > >racist statement>
> >
> > Fine with me, but not as strong as naming SKOPIALAND as Makedonia.
> >
> > >George, he is pretty well known for what he is (and isn't)>
> >
> > Modis is one of the VERY FEW true names that took place in the Makedonian
> > struggle and wrote about it. Not only this but he never modified situations in
> > order to prove his points.
>
> You are suggesting that Modis did not denigrates other sides besides the Greek for
> the periods he wrote about? Not how he reads. He is amusing, but he is slanted
> and biased.
According to you, Aristotle is biased. So hold on to your bigotry. You
are right! The whole world is against you Skopians :)
Org
George S. Tsapanos
>Doesn't bother me>
Sure it does. It does bother you that such case like mine a perfect combination
of a Makedonian Vlach is also so much of a Hellene like all of his ancestors.
Gee.......can you immagine the propaganda and the exposure I could have, in
case I had chosen to be a SKOPIAN?
>propaganda against a separate Vlah identity and culture.>
The identiy and the culture of the Vlachs is that Hellenic since the days of
those Achilles and his son's Neoptolemos first Hellenes.
>your irresponsible suggestion>
Then let me put it down one more time, every person in SKOPIA suggesting the
name Makedonia is theirs, is de facto an Anti Hellene.
>your theory>
Mytheory that goes around and is accepted by more and more people. And the ones
that do not wish to accept it, is only because they will recognize as Hellenic
lands all the lands South to the Genousos river as well Pelagonia.
>Where is the evidence of Vlach language before the 10th century in the area?>
Now this is the more STUPID question I ever had from you.
If there are NOT evidences of a Vlachian language BEFORE the 10th century,
then........WHERE FROM AND HOW THE LANGUAGE GOT IN THERE IN FIRST PLACE?
As for evidences......plenty, just check out Lydos, just check out Justin's and
Justinian's writings, the findings along Via Egnatia, all the findings in
Thessaloniki, everything speaks of a GREEK/LATIN idiom, from 150 B.C. to our
days.
>You cannot equate Greeks with either Hellenism or ancient ethnography in that
>area>.
Why not? Just because some clowns want our Nation to have eclipsed again and
again ?
Can't you see that the PEOPLE, the PEOPLE themselves are DIFFERENT than the
ones around them?
Can't you see that they are THINKING in a different way?
That they are CREATING in a different way?
That some of them are made for the old "ZADRUGA" kind of family, for COMMUNISM
and being lazy all day long, while the Hellenes TEACH?
>Because they are Vlasi>
One more name for the Ancient HELLENES.
People living in the same placefor eons, are the same people
>Livy, and Vlahika is not an Hellenic language>
Dear Galina
Livy is a Roman Historian, not a language.
>That website does not suggest in any way that Vlahs are Greeks>
Oh ? And what it says? That the people living in ANCIENT HELLAS ARE VLACHS,
right?
Did you notice all the names, the places, the lakes and the mountains?
The Vlachian lands, the Pindus mountains, the craddle of the HELLENIC Nation.
>There is a small article on Romanian Vlasi in one of the newsletters.>
Precisely.
>I didn't claim that Vlasi are not Macedonian, in part. I did claim they are
>not>Greek in origin>.
And that precisely what bothers the SLAVOBULGARIAN SKOPIANS.
What they can not or don't want to accept, is not the MAKEDONISM OF THE VLACHS,
but the fact that if the Vlachs are the ancient HELLENES, it will make also
the Makedonians direct descendants of the Hellenes.
You can change the terms any way you wish Galina, the point is that more and
more people are accepting "MY THEORY" of the Autochonous of the Vlachs and
their DIRECT relation to the Makedonians.
Where the buck stops is that they don't want to take the extra step and
recognize the Makedonians as Hellenes.
That will fully destroy 200 years attempts by the PANSLAVISTS to usurp
Makedonia and cut Hellas in two.
>You are equating apples and oranges>
Oh ? Why? Because I don't include your SLAVS in that ETHNOS MAKEDNON?
>1994. I've posted on it here at least ten or so times. Not going to post it
>again.>
Galina........we are in 2002 and BEFORE new elections will take place in SKOPIA
a new census must be taken.
Then........we will see who is who and who is not.
Let's hope that they are going to have ALL the ETHNICITIES living in
SKOPIALAND.
>There ared no peoples anywhere that I would disgrace with the term
>"leftovers".
>Rephrase the question and I will consider an appropriate response.>
But that precisely what they are, they are TITO's leftovers.
>Nothing offensive at all.>
WE decide what is offensive to us and what is not.
>Solun is not a Slavic name.>
Why not tell us what it is then?
>It is also Salonika and Thessaloniki. Depends who is speaking.>
In both cases are Greeks speaking.
>Who are those? Oh, by the way, misspelling and fractured English do not
sell>your>points. Nor do they look credible since your normal English is
grammatical>and>spelled correctly.>
Since you can score points in any other way, I fully understand you trying to
score with my English.
Well........they are what they are, one more language between the many I do
speak and write.
By the way........how many do you speak ?
>
>Preserving the unique language and customs of Vlah heritage should be a goal,
>especially as an endangered people.>
But we are preserving both, simply we don't want the come out with STUPID
children trying to learn a DEAD language while other kids learn about
computers.
>The language and its major dialects, despite the efforts of the Greek state,
>is>not, thankfully, dead.>
Jesus Galina.......
Didn't you understand that it wasn't the Greek State but the Vlachs themselves
that took such a decision?
Read Modis, read Liakos........until 1903 only FEW in Monastiri were speaking
Greek, the HELLENES IN THERE WERE SPEAKING THE VLACH LANGUAGE.
And then..........just like magic, in one night, NO ONE WAS SPEAKING VLACHIAN
OUTSIDE THEIRS HOUSES.
>You are suggesting that Modis did not denigrates other sides besides the
>Greek for>the periods he wrote about? Not how he reads. He is amusing, but
he is>slanted>and biased.>
What other sides..........what other sides?
They were Greeks and they were BULGARS.
They were killing us, we were killing them and the Turks were watching.
When the Turkish Constitution was voted and the Grand Parade took place in
Monastiri, they were TWO and ONLY TWO PARTIES PARADING.
GREEKS AND BULGARS.
No "Matsentontsi", no "Tukrtsi", and no "Tsigkantsi".
Plain old Tsapanos and Radeffs.
Yannis
...............................
> >Livy, and Vlahika is not an Hellenic language>
> Dear Galina
> Livy is a Roman Historian, not a language.
!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahaha !!
She is so stupid propagandist that not only excludes SlavoSkopians from
information but also she holds herself uninformed !!
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
> Galina wrote:
>
> >Doesn't bother me>
>
> Sure it does. It does bother you that such case like mine a perfect combination
> of a Makedonian Vlach is also so much of a Hellene like all of his ancestors.
> Gee.......can you immagine the propaganda and the exposure I could have, in
> case I had chosen to be a SKOPIAN?
>
I think you are overestimating both your real and potential importance
>
> >propaganda against a separate Vlah identity and culture.>
>
> The identiy and the culture of the Vlachs is that Hellenic since the days of
> those Achilles and his son's Neoptolemos first Hellenes.
>
> >your irresponsible suggestion>
>
> Then let me put it down one more time, every person in SKOPIA suggesting the
> name Makedonia is theirs, is de facto an Anti Hellene.
You can't even define "hellene" properly. And your anti-hellene position is
ludicrous. Basically it equates with the little boy who says to his mom "Sis hates
me because she doesn't agree with me"
>
>
> >your theory>
>
> Mytheory that goes around and is accepted by more and more people.
Uh...no
> And the ones
> that do not wish to accept it, is only because they will recognize as Hellenic
> lands all the lands South to the Genousos river as well Pelagonia.
>
> >Where is the evidence of Vlach language before the 10th century in the area?>
>
> Now this is the more STUPID question I ever had from you.
> If there are NOT evidences of a Vlachian language BEFORE the 10th century,
> then........WHERE FROM AND HOW THE LANGUAGE GOT IN THERE IN FIRST PLACE?
> As for evidences......plenty, just check out Lydos, just check out Justin's and
> Justinian's writings, the findings along Via Egnatia, all the findings in
> Thessaloniki, everything speaks of a GREEK/LATIN idiom, from 150 B.C. to our
> days.
uh, you mean like....Albanian?
>
>
> >You cannot equate Greeks with either Hellenism or ancient ethnography in that
> >area>.
>
> Why not? Just because some clowns
which clowns
> want our Nation to have eclipsed again and
> again ?
> Can't you see that the PEOPLE, the PEOPLE themselves are DIFFERENT than the
> ones around them?
> Can't you see that they are THINKING in a different way?
> That they are CREATING in a different way?
> That some of them are made for the old "ZADRUGA" kind of family, for COMMUNISM
> and being lazy all day long, while the Hellenes TEACH?
what racism!
>
>
> >Because they are Vlasi>
>
> One more name for the Ancient HELLENES.
uh, no
>
> People living in the same placefor eons, are the same people
>
> >Livy, and Vlahika is not an Hellenic language>
>
> Dear Galina
> Livy is a Roman Historian, not a language.
My comment had nothing to do with Livy being a language, had to do with your
intentionally fractured spelling.
>
>
> >That website does not suggest in any way that Vlahs are Greeks>
>
> Oh ? And what it says? That the
some
> people living in ANCIENT HELLAS ARE VLACHS,
> right?
maybe
>
> Did you notice all the names, the places, the lakes and the mountains?
> The Vlachian lands, the Pindus mountains, the craddle of the HELLENIC Nation.
your theory is not accepted
>
>
> >There is a small article on Romanian Vlasi in one of the newsletters.>
>
> Precisely.
>
> >I didn't claim that Vlasi are not Macedonian, in part. I did claim they are
> >not>Greek in origin>.
>
> And that precisely what bothers the SLAVOBULGARIAN SKOPIANS.
> What they can not or don't want to accept, is not the MAKEDONISM OF THE VLACHS,
> but the fact that if the Vlachs are the ancient HELLENES,
this is propaganda
> it will make also
> the Makedonians direct descendants of the Hellenes.
> You can change the terms any way you wish Galina, the point is that more and
> more people are accepting "MY THEORY" of the Autochonous of the Vlachs and
> their DIRECT relation to the Makedonians.
> Where the buck stops is that they don't want to take the extra step and
> recognize the Makedonians as Hellenes.
> That will fully destroy 200 years attempts by the PANSLAVISTS to usurp
> Makedonia and cut Hellas in two.
Panslavists were never (see previous posting) important to Macedonia
>
>
> >You are equating apples and oranges>
>
> Oh ? Why? Because I don't include your SLAVS in that ETHNOS MAKEDNON?
>
> >1994. I've posted on it here at least ten or so times. Not going to post it
> >again.>
>
> Galina........we are in 2002 and BEFORE new elections will take place in SKOPIA
> a new census must be taken.
Why? There was a huge one in 1994, and it was even recounted for the sake of
argument
>
> Then........we will see who is who and who is not.
> Let's hope that they are going to have ALL the ETHNICITIES living in
> SKOPIALAND.
no such place
>
>
> >There ared no peoples anywhere that I would disgrace with the term
> >"leftovers".
> >Rephrase the question and I will consider an appropriate response.>
>
> But that precisely what they are, they are TITO's leftovers.
>
> >Nothing offensive at all.>
>
> WE decide what is offensive to us and what is not.
>
> >Solun is not a Slavic name.>
>
> Why not tell us what it is then?
from Sol, i.e. sun,
>
>
> >It is also Salonika and Thessaloniki. Depends who is speaking.>
>
> In both cases are Greeks speaking.
Solun used to be a majority Jewish city
>
>
> >Who are those? Oh, by the way, misspelling and fractured English do not
> sell>your>points. Nor do they look credible since your normal English is
> grammatical>and>spelled correctly.>
>
> Since you can score points in any other way, I fully understand you trying to
> score with my English.
> Well........they are what they are, one more language between the many I do
> speak and write.
> By the way........how many do you speak ?
> >
>
> >Preserving the unique language and customs of Vlah heritage should be a goal,
> >especially as an endangered people.>
>
> But we are preserving both, simply we don't want the come out with STUPID
> children trying to learn a DEAD language while other kids learn about
> computers.
>
> >The language and its major dialects, despite the efforts of the Greek state,
> >is>not, thankfully, dead.>
>
> Jesus Galina.......
> Didn't you understand that it wasn't the Greek State but the Vlachs themselves
> that took such a decision?
> Read Modis, read Liakos........until 1903 only FEW in Monastiri were speaking
> Greek, the HELLENES IN THERE WERE SPEAKING THE VLACH LANGUAGE.
> And then..........just like magic, in one night, NO ONE WAS SPEAKING VLACHIAN
> OUTSIDE THEIRS HOUSES.
Hellene is an ethnicity, hellenic is not
>
>
> >You are suggesting that Modis did not denigrates other sides besides the
> >Greek for>the periods he wrote about? Not how he reads. He is amusing, but
> he is>slanted>and biased.>
>
> What other sides..........what other sides?
> They were Greeks and they were BULGARS.
> They were killing us, we were killing them and the Turks were watching.
> When the Turkish Constitution was voted and the Grand Parade took place in
> Monastiri, they were TWO and ONLY TWO PARTIES PARADING.
>
> GREEKS AND BULGARS.
>
> No "Matsentontsi", no "Tukrtsi", and no "Tsigkantsi".
>
> Plain old Tsapanos and Radeffs.
>
> Regards to all ..................L.
> "Vlachs, The Autochthonous
> Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
tiresome
George S. Tsapanos
>I think you are overestimating both your real and potential importance>
Hellenes were always full with confidence.
>You can't even define "hellene" properly. And your anti-hellene position is
>ludicrous. Basically it equates with the little boy who says to his mom "Sis
>hates>me because she doesn't agree with me">
Then why not define it for us?
As for the SKOPIANS being a de facto Anti-Hellenes thats true.
>Uh...no>
Oh? Then how come EVERYBODY lately is searching for the ORIGINS of the Vlachs
in the TRADITIONAL Hellenic lands of the Pindus mountains?
What happened to all those ""THEORIES"" about Romanian and Northern Balkan
origins?
>uh, you mean like....Albanian?>
Albanian is a Greek/Latin idiom?
Are you O.K. this morning?
>which clowns>
The SKOPIAN ones, who else?
>what racism!>
Oh well.........much better than SLAVIZATION of Makedonia.
>uh, no>
Sure it is........STARI VLASHI.
>My comment had nothing to do with Livy being a language, had to do with your
>intentionally fractured spelling.>
So you can understand it better.
>> Oh ? And what it says? That the
>
>some
>
>> people living in ANCIENT HELLAS ARE VLACHS,
>> right?
>
>maybe>
Hahahahaha......the tides turned and you know it.
>your theory is not accepted>
Sure it is, since Aristotelis, Homer, Thukididis, and Herodotus times. Just
read them again and again. Seek for Hellas and Hellenes and then look for
Vlachs and Pindus.
One and the same.
>this is propaganda>
All this years we were subject to the PANSLAVIC propaganda, now that the truth
is coming out, now it is.......Hellenic Propaganda, ah?
>Panslavists were never (see previous posting) important to Macedonia>
Panslavists ALWAYS wanted Makedonia and Thessaloniki with her White Tower to
become SLAV lands.
Too bad for them.........they failed again and and again, now they are left
only with that Pelagonia that the Serbs STOLE from the Makedonians and gave it
to the SKOPIAN mutts to call it..........Makedonia.
What a joke !
>Why? There was a huge one in 1994, and it was even recounted for the sake of
>argument>
One in which the Albanians weren't even allowed to register, right?
Well........the International community learned it's lesson, for these
elections even Albanian donkeys will be registered.
>no such place>
Sure there is, the land North of Makedonia is called SKOPIA, or SKOPIALAND.
>from Sol, i.e. sun,>
Oh ? Since when ?
Before Kassandro's days, or after the SLAV arrivals, the word SOL became known
to the Makedonians?
>Solun used to be a majority Jewish city>
Boy........don't yell like that, those SKOPIANS will kill you, to them is THE
MECCA of Makedonism, their Makedonism of course.
But since you made a statement, why not bring us in here the statistics and the
year you are refering to as well its duration.
>Hellene is an ethnicity, hellenic is not>
First,I used the term HELLENE and not HELLENIC, second, HELLENIC by definition
is OF OR RELATING TO THE ANCIENT GREEKS OR THEIR LANGUAGE.
So.........even if I had used the term Hellenic, it was going to be proper.
WolfWolf
"A11otrios" <A11o...@hotmail.com.nospam> farted and wrote in message
news:MPG.16faac81e...@news.demon.co.uk...
> According to you, Aristotle is biased. So hold on to your bigotry. You
> are right! The whole world is against you Skopians :)
The world begins where your horizon ends, ignorant!
WolfWolf
The European
A11otrios
following shapes
If you could understand what you wrote, you would realize you just
made me compliment.
Please feel free to ask for an explanation if you don't make it ;)
Org
June R Harton
> > Then let me put it down one more time, every person in SKOPIA suggesting
the
> > name Makedonia is theirs, is de facto an Anti Hellene.
> You can't even define "hellene" properly. And your anti-hellene position
is
> ludicrous. Basically it equates with the little boy who says to his mom
"Sis hates
> me because she doesn't agree with me"
I promise you something, Gail. The whole world is going to find out that
the FYROM Slavs are Bulgarians. You are the epitome of the reason that
this is going to happen.
June R Harton
>
>
> Anastassios Retzios wrote:
>
> >
> > > > For the
> > > > time being, we are the agrieved party.
> > >
> > > I don't see how you can support such an assertion. Did Macedonia
impose oil embargoes and economic sanctions
> > > against the Hellenic Republic. No!
> >
> > You make it sound like Greece is staging embargoes just for laughs.
>
> Not at all. I am suggesting that it was a regionally destablizing and
wrong policy.
>
> >
> > Actually, this was a response to a unique provocation
>
> There was literally no provocation.
The United Nations utterly disagree with that statement, don't they
Gail?
>
> > and you know all
> > the elements of this provocation. The Greek response was minimal. I
> > suggest that you examine the politics that you support a little more
> > closely.
>
> The EU found against Greek policy in court
That is again completely false.
> >
> > > > However, if FYROM
> > >
> > > no such place
> >
> > Stop silly entries. You know that legally this is the place
>
> I know quite well that legally it is not.
Again completely false, Gail. FYROM is only FYROM and by hellas
it shall remain that way untill all the Ethnic slavs of FYROM are
known as the Bulgarians they are and untill their country is as
what it is, West Bulgaria.
> > > What leads you to such a conclusion?
> >
> > The idiotic policies of the Skopje goverment, what else?. Reaching a
> > compromise with Greece, reviving cross border traffic and trade,
> > involving Greece in the security of the country (which is to the
> > interest of Greece) would be a major benefit on all fronts for FYROM.
>
> It would have been to the benefit of Greece not to have initiated this
quarrel in the first place, embargoes in the
> second and economic sanctions in the third place.
Again COMPLETELY false. Gail, if you persist in falsehoods here
I shall have no option than to complain to your ISP again for your
spamming and racism here.
> > However, there is a strong adhesion to adversarial policies with
> > Greece with disastrous results. Who can be the major trade partner
> > for FYROM? Who is interested in the integrity of FYROM? Who can move
> > substantial capital in FYROM? I think that you know the answer to all
> > of these. The compromise will be a serious compromise for many in
> > Greece as well. It cannot and should not be seen as "accepting Greek
> > demands". I am certain that many in Skopje see the stupidity of
> > maintaining a fiction on made-up assertions that cannot stand close
> > inspection. Unfortunately, they are more likely to end up in prison
> > than be heard. So, these are the facts that make me say that FYROM
> > itself is the best ally of Greek supernationalists.
>
> It is amusing to me that you used to pride yourself in being able to use
the terms Macedonia and Macedonians, as
> did Stavros. Perhaps in your advanced age you are pining after the
approval of teenaged Greek netnazis isntead of
> enjoying your former occasional reputation as a somewhat reasonable
poster?
Gail, the term netnazis was developed to describe such activities as
yours...the comprehensive term being 'commie-minded netnazi', not
Anastassi's statements.
Ilinden
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
> <trashed.
>
> >from Sol, i.e. sun,>
>
> Oh ? Since when ?
> Before Kassandro's days, or after the SLAV arrivals, the word SOL became known
> to the Makedonians?
What's the word for "sun" in Greek?
>
>
> >Solun used to be a majority Jewish city>
>
> Boy........don't yell like that, those SKOPIANS will kill you, to them is THE
> MECCA of Makedonism, their Makedonism of course.
> But since you made a statement, why not bring us in here the statistics and the
> year you are refering to as well its duration.
>
> >Hellene is an ethnicity, hellenic is not>
>
> First,I used the term HELLENE and not HELLENIC, second, HELLENIC by definition
> is OF OR RELATING TO THE ANCIENT GREEKS OR THEIR LANGUAGE.
> So.........even if I had used the term Hellenic, it was going to be proper.
improper as relates to Vlasi
George S. Tsapanos
>What's the word for "sun" in Greek?>
What, what the word for sun in Greek is, has to do with SOLUN?
The point is, was, has been, or is now Thessaloniki a SLAV city?
Why you wish to name it and call it with a SLAV name ?
>> So.........even if I had used the term Hellenic, it was going to be proper.
>
>improper as relates to Vlasi>
Very proper indeed since the Vlachs are Hellenes.
Yannis
> The Ftcogians from the FTCOG are pure Turks.
Greeks have nothing Turkish, just as Macedonians have nothing Slav, while
SlavoSkopians have everything Bulgarian !
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Ilinden
Romanians, according to the Turk Alepiloglu, you are a very bolen chovek.
Ilinden
Yannis wrote:
> "Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > The Ftcogians from the FTCOG are pure Turks.
>
> FTCOGIANS have nothing WITH THE HELLENES, just as Macedonians ARE
> MACEDONIANS
> Macedonia, FTCOG
Yannis
> THE LATINS HAVE NOTHING WITH THE ITALIANS PORtuguese, French, Spanish,
> Romanians, according to the Turk Alepiloglu, you are a very bolen chovek.
> Ilinden
Kisses !!
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Ilinden
Andrutso, Botsaris were pure Albanians. Why ? Because you know we Macedonians
have nothing in common with the Greeks . If the Chinese and the British are the
same than the Macedonians and Greki are the same, Kako si bre nepismen so
zdravjeto?
Ilinden
Yannis
> Jovanche you never said that, Kolokotronis, Karaiskakis, Bubulina, Griva,
> Andrutso, Botsaris were pure Albanians. Why ? Because you know we
Macedonians
> have nothing in common with the Greeks . If the Chinese and the British
are the
> same than the Macedonians and Greki are the same, Kako si bre nepismen so
> zdravjeto?
> Ilinden
Kisses !
I answered as many times as you have resent the question about Kolokotronis
and others. But obviously you 're afraid to read it because you 're afraid
of the light. You still living under SlavoSkopian propaganda, obviously
because you 're paid by its leaders.
As for the Macedonians, let me inform one more time that Macedonians had
ALWAYS Greek names, toponyms, ways, heroes, gods, words dialect and spread
Greek Language and Civilization to the World. Greek voice never stopped to
be heard by Macedonians. Whoever calls SlavoSkopians Macedonian brutally
violates our Macedonians essential human right to have an exclusive name for
our famous tribe.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Anastassios Retzios
> "George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
>
> > <trashed.
> >
> > >from Sol, i.e. sun,>
> >
> > Oh ? Since when ?
> > Before Kassandro's days, or after the SLAV arrivals, the word SOL became known
> > to the Makedonians?
>
> What's the word for "sun" in Greek?
The Greek word for sun is "helios" pronounced ^eelios in ancient Greek
and ilios in modern Greek. Thessaloniki was not named thus for the
"Sun" -what a ridiculous notion-. It got its name from the half-
sister of Alexander the Great who was Cassander's wife. She was the
daughter of Philip II by his 2nd Thessalian wife, thus the name
"Thessalian Victory". Cassander ruled Macedonia at least 120 years
before the first detachments of the Roman army landed in Greece to
fight the 1st Macedonian war. The name of the city exists in so many
inscriptions, the Bible and so many other contemporary sources as to
make it impossible to pretend -even just for laughs- that the name
"Solun" preexisted among the Macedonian population. Where do you get
these silly notions??
> >
> > >Solun used to be a majority Jewish city>
> >
> > Boy........don't yell like that, those SKOPIANS will kill you, to them is THE
> > MECCA of Makedonism, their Makedonism of course.
> > But since you made a statement, why not bring us in here the statistics and the
> > year you are refering to as well its duration.
Although Thessaloniki had a substantial Jewish population, that at
occassions outnumbered the Greek one, the Jews were never the
majority. The fluctuations of the Greek population were due to
Turkish policies such as after the conquest in 1430 or following the
Greek revolution of 1821. However, following these episodes, the
Greek population quickly rose in numbers and in fact, it outnumbered
the Jewish population in 1912, when the city was liberated by the
Greek army. In fact, the 19th century is a significant century for
the Greeks in Thessaloniki, as it can be traced by the explosion of
Greek educational establishments, cultural and political associations.
I suggest that you look at the results of the 1908 election for the
Ottoman parliament in Macedonia for some elucidation as to the number
and the influence of Greeks in Macedonia.
> >
> > >Hellene is an ethnicity, hellenic is not>
Where do you produce these gems from? The current official term of
the Greek state is that of "Hellenic Democracy" -Elliniki Dimocratia-.
Are you delutional?
ADR
June R Harton
"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3C938A2C...@sympatico.ca...
> Jovanche you never said that, Kolokotronis, Karaiskakis, Bubulina, Griva,
> Andrutso, Botsaris were pure Albanians. Why ? Because you know we
Macedonians
> have nothing in common with the Greeks . If the Chinese and the British
are the
> same than the Macedonians and Greki are the same, Kako si bre nepismen so
> zdravjeto?
> Ilinden
Here, Bulgarian, cease your attempted theft of 'Macedonian' which
is alone Greek:
Kuzman Anastasov Shapkarev
(1834-1909) Faith and Nationality
Q: What is most sacred for man ?
A: His faith and nationality.
Q: What is your faith?
A: I am a christian.
Q: What is your nationality?
A: I am Bulgarian.
Q: Why?
A: Because my parents are Bulgarians and I speak Bulgarian.
Q: Cannot man change his faith and nationality?
A: There are such people who change their religion and nationality but they
commit the gravest sin and they are considered traitors by the world. They
are not dear to any one, everybody hates and despises them and that is why I
shall never think of such things and I shall always try to help such misled
people to find the true path.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
K Shapkarev's "Bulgarsky Boukvar" 1868, p45
[Bulgarian Primer - in the language of the Macedonian Bulgarians]
Kuzman Shapkarev was the greatest collector and publisher of ethnographic
material in Vardar Macedonia. Born in the city of Ohrid, he spent some 30
years (1855-84) as a teacher in this part of Macedonia. He published
hundreds of articles and monographs on the dialects and folklore in the
Periodic Journal of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (Bqlgarskoto Knijovno
Drujestvo). His major work is "Sbornik ot bqlgarski narodni umotvoreniya" in
three volumes, Sofia, 1891-94.
From the
"Autobiography" (1864)
of Kouzman Shapkarev
The state of education in Macedonia
"Genealogy and life of Kouzman, the son of Tasev (Atanasov), the son of
Paskal, the son of Mihail Shapkarev from Ochrida. Mihail Shapkarev, a
Bulgarian, born in the village of Leskovets, which is at one hour's walk
east of Ochrida, in the Western part of Petrino Mountain, was the father of
two sons called Hadji Peter and Paskal. According to the usual custom of
that time, Mihail went to work in Constantinople and since he stayed a very
long time there, without visiting his family, his wife took her little
children and went on horseback to her husband in Constantinople. After
staying for a while there she returned home again. That is why she was
called later "Stamboulka".
When the end of my stay in Bitolya drew near, that is, when I finished my
studies there, I had to look for a job as a teacher. My teacher Atanasy took
the trouble to find me a job. He tried to place me in Turnovo (a small
village in the district of Bitolya) but failed. Then he tried through Georgy
Tsolev, the best friend and secret adviser of Atanasy, ie mine as well, then
through Atanasy and Yanakiev, to get an appointment for me as teacher in the
village of Neveska or some other village. Meanwhile some people from
Koukoush, of whom Stameno Petsov was one, put up at our inn once and invited
me for a teacher in Koukoush (where the spark of love for our mother
Bulgarian tongue had not been kindled yet). I am very much obliged
especially to two of my teachers - one of them Mile Skopachev, who being a
good psalm singer, taught me to sing and understand a little of
hymn-singing; while the other - Kostadin Hr. Ouzounov, was the first to
inspire me with the desire to study my native language. He gave me a Serbian
primar (because there were no Bulgarian primars in our part of the country,
and no one even thought of studying Bulgarian, while now, thank God, the
situation is quite changed), taught me to understand the letters and kindled
the first sparks of love for our language in me. God bless his soul in
heaven! That year I studied geography, mathematics, ecclesiastical history,
together with Ancon Mitanov and Vasil Dyamandiev.
During the three years of my being a teacher in Strouga two important things
in my life took place there. The first was that I introduced in school for
the first time the teaching of our native language the Bulgarian language,
which about a century (70 years) ago was in danger of disappearing
completely. The reason for this introduction was closely connected with the
late Dimiter Miladinov, of whom we shall speak more later on in this book.
This worthy man, being a teacher in Greek for many years, was naturally for
a while a supporter of the Greeks and persecutor of the Bulgarians. But
during the last years of his life (just like St. Paul) he was aware of his
delusion, in which not only all Bulgarians in Macedonia but even he himself
had fallen, and renouncing his former errors he zealously worked even to the
day of his death for the spiritual revival of the people, and the
introduction of the Bulgarian language in the Bulgarian churches and
schools, in which the Greek language was used at that time. The endeavours
of this worthy man inspired me also to introduce the Bulgarian language
which I learnt to read a little as early as 1856 in Ochrida from Kostadin
Hr. Ouzounov - in my school. But I lacked the necessary books. I received
help, however, from the same person. Because after he returned to his place
in Prilep he sent me 15 Serbian primars with church letters. Then after he
went to Koukoush he sent me a sufficient number of Bulgarian primars and
histories, published by the Archimandrite Parteny Zografsky, the present
bishop of Polyanin (Koukoush). This is the first event. And the second one
is that at the end of my second year there (Oct. 30th, 1858) I was engaged
to Elisaveta D. Miladinova, and married her five years later [Sept. 25th,
1863].
The Name Macedonians
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
from: Spirit Of The Real Makedon
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
........The heart of Macedonia was always Greek