State Dept. on 'ecumenical' status of Patriarch
Agamemnon
WASHINGTON (ANA-MPA)
The US State Department on Wednesday issued a written statement
referring to the "ecumenical" status of the Istanbul-based Christian
Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople, without however, referred to
this week's unprecedented court decision by a Turkish high court
claiming that the Patriarchate only represents the Greek Orthodox
community in the predominately Muslim and EU hopeful.
The statement also refers to the great "respect" held by the US for
"Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew (Vartholomeos)", while using term
"ecumenical" twice.
A State Department spokesman later declined to comment directly on the
Turkish court decision, instead he reiterated Washington's emphasis on
the promotion of religious and human rights.
The development has caused a whirlwind of condemnation by religious and
political leaders around the world.
OrthoNews9
Wednesday's press briefing. What is your source for this? Thanks.
Al
"Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:yq2dneeZM_M76Rjb...@eclipse.net.uk...
veritas
<newsh...@nospam.net> wrote:
>***I checked the State Department web site and this was not part of
>Wednesday's press briefing. What is your source for this? Thanks.
>
>Al
I found this on the web site of the Greek Embassy in D.C. :
http://www.greekembassy.org/Embassy/content/en/Article.aspx?office=1&folder=19&article=21101
I too now want to know what Condy thinks about this and what she
doesn't .
Aryan 666
Aryan 666
The Bulgarian foundation had claimed the priest was punished after he refused to refer to Bartholomew in prayers and refused to conduct religious services and issue baptism and marriage documents in Greek."
That's what you people did in Cyprus. That's what you did in Macedonia.
You IDIOTS still can't learn your lesson .................
THAT'S WHY PEOPLE HATE YOU SO MUCH!
Aryan 666
veritas
wrote:
> 65.60.242.218
hey Moron , keep this Turkish propaganda on the Muslim newsgroups .
thanks .
Take your meds too.
veritas
On Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:29:36 -0400, "Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/26/europe/EU-REL-Turkey-Orthodox.php
Look , Turkey does whatever it likes .Everyone knows this was a racist
decision .Turkish courts are a JOKE .
World Wide Orthodox *Church law* states that *** ALL*** Orthodox
Christians in Istanbul are under the Ecumenical Patriarch .inclusing
that ethnic Bulgarian priest.
O.K. ?
Now if you want to be a Bulgarian/Macedonian/Quasi -Slav-anti-Greek
nationalist go ahead.
Fool.
You are still sore because you didn't manage to murder all the Greeks
and Jews in World War 2 :))
Aryan 666
THE GAYREEKS CONTINUE TO TRY AND FORCE HELLENISM DOWN THE THROATS OF PEOPLE
WHO DON'T WANT IT.
THE TURKISH COURTS STEPPED IN AND SAID THAT BASTARD BART HAS NO DOMINION
OVER PEOPLE WHO DON'T BELONG TO HIS CHURCH.
IT'S WHAT IS KNOWN AS EQUAL PROTECTION FOR MINORITIES. THE TURKISH COURTS
RULED NO DIFFERENTLY THAN ANY MODERN, WESTERN COURT WOULD RULE. NO WESTERN
COURT WOULD FORCE BULGARIAN WORSHIPERS TO SUBJUGATE THEMSELVES TO BASTARD
BART.
AGAIN, YOU GAYREEKS NEVER LEARN. YOU TRIED TO SHOVE HELLENISM DOWN THE
THROATS OF MINORITY TURKS IN CYPRUS ... YOU LOST. YOU TRIED TO SHOVE
HELLENISM DOWN THE THROATS OF MACEDONIANS IN MACEDONIA ... YOU LOST.
EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU TRY AND SHOVE YOUR WORTHLESS, PHONEY, PATHETIC, SHRILL
GAYREEK CULTURE DOWN PEOPLE'S THROATS, YOU LOSE BIG.
WILL YOU GAYREEKS EVER LEARN YOUR LESSON?
GO TURKEY GO!
GO BULGARIA GO!
"veritas" <veritas@coming_soon.com> wrote in message
news:llcb839735cm2grja...@4ax.com...
++
> More Gayreek Rubbish:
>
> "Bartholomew, who is a Turkish citizen and an ethnic Greek,* has
> spiritual authority over the world's 300 million Orthodox Christians"*
>
> http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/06/26/europe/EU-REL-Turkey-Orthodox.php
>
> Hahahahahahahah!
>
> "Agamemnon" <agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM
> <mailto:agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM>> wrote in message
> news:yq2dneeZM_M76Rjb...@eclipse.net.uk...
> > State Dept. on 'ecumenical' status of Patriarch
> >
> > WASHINGTON (ANA-MPA)
> >
> > The US State Department on Wednesday issued a written statement
> > referring to the "ecumenical" status of the Istanbul-based Christian
> > Orthodox Patriarchate of Constantinople, without however, referred to
> > this week's unprecedented court decision by a Turkish high court
> > claiming that the Patriarchate only represents the Greek Orthodox
> > community in the predominately Muslim and EU hopeful.
> >
> > The statement also refers to the great "respect" held by the US for
> > "Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew (Vartholomeos)", while using term
> > "ecumenical" twice.
> >
> > A State Department spokesman later declined to comment directly on the
> > Turkish court decision, instead he reiterated Washington's emphasis on
> > the promotion of religious and human rights.
> >
> > The development has caused a whirlwind of condemnation by religious and
> > political leaders around the world.
Here's from the briefing of the State Department on June 27
> Anything else on the Middle East? Lambros --
>
> *QUESTION:* Allow me this on Turkey --
>
> *MR. MCCORMACK:* It's your big day.
>
> *QUESTION:* Mr. McCormack, to a pending question of mine from
> yesterday's briefing regarding the Ecumenical Patriarchate of
> Constantinople in Istanbul, Turkey, a DOS spokesman stated on the
> record, "The United States has a great respect for Ecumenical
> Patriarch Bartholomew, who is a religious leader of world standing.
> Promotion of religious freedom and human rights are integral to a U.S.
> foreign policy." Do you agree? Do you have any additional comment?
>
> *MR. MCCORMACK:* This was a statement from a Department of State
> spokesman?
>
> *QUESTION:* That's exactly (inaudible).
>
> *MR. MCCORMACK:* And why would I have any dispute with such a
> statement, then?
>
> *QUESTION:* It's an email so I had to verify, sir.
>
> *MR. MCCORMACK:* I think you can take it as a statement of policy from
> the Department of State.
>
> Yeah.
>
> *QUESTION:* I was also going to ask on Turkey. It's about this troop
> buildup on the border. And we've heard comments today from the head of
> the armed forces saying --
>
> *MR. MCCORMACK:* Right.
>
> *QUESTION:* -- that -- you know, they think that they need to go into
> Kurdistan. What's your reaction to that?
>
> *MR. MCCORMACK:* Well, it -- our reaction is the same as it has been
> over the past weeks whenever this question has come up. We understand
> absolutely the Turkish Government's sensitivity and the need for the
> Turkish military to defend the Turkish people against attacks by
> terrorist groups. PKK is a terrorist group.
>
> All of that said, it is not our view that a substantial land incursion
> by Turkish forces into Iraq is going to help the situation. The
> solution here is to have the Turkish Government, the Iraqi Government
> work together to address what is a common threat. The Iraqi Government
> doesn't want a terrorist group operating on its territory. In fact,
> that's the fight that they are engaged in now and the PKK falls into
> that same category. So what we're trying to do is we're trying to work
> with both sides. We're trying to work with the Turks, trying to work
> with the Iraqis, bring them together, try to find ways to address the
> situation.
>
> But we don't think an operation into Iraq from Turkey is going to help
> the situation, either in the short, medium, or long-term. Turkey and
> Iraq are neighbors. That's not going to change. So they have to find a
> way to work together to address what is a common threat.
>
Aryan 666
would also have been thrown out on his ass.
I have no interest in seeing Constantinople wither away any further
............. but, what can I say? Your wounds are mostly self-inflicted.
A true, brotherly, Christian, eccumenical, Orthodox, patriarch would treat
brothers in Orthodoxy with kindness and warmth rather than playing 19th
century games of creating faux Greeks out of people who don't want to be.
That's why Bastard Bart got what he deserved.
Was it politically motivated? Probably. But the fact remains, the Turkish
court ruled as any modern western court would have.
But what do you expect from the same church that revers the likes of Radovan
Karadich (bestowed with knighthood by the Greek church) and the evil Bishop
Karavangelos .......... Constantinople's agent who took pride in sending out
goons to murder Bulgarians (fellow Orthodox) in the early 20th Century (the
churches of Occupied Gayreek Macedonia were under the Partriarch at this
time)
Constantinople's wounds are mostly self-inflicted.
"veritas" <veritas@coming_soon.com> wrote in message
news:hvcb839eh160kjivl...@4ax.com...
Aryan 666
all about. It was the heavy hand of the Gayreeks ......... trying to shove
their "Hellenism" down the throats of Bulgarians who don't want to be
Hellenized ......... being SMACKED DOWN by the even heavier hand of their
masters ........... the Turks.
The Turkish court was absolutely correct on this one.
It just shows how absolutely backward, paranoid, racist and xenophobic these
Greek institutions are. It's about time something was done about them.
"++" <sp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:XcadnZmZZeqiQxjb...@rcn.net...
Aryan 666
America and try and be the spiritual leader of all the various Orthodox
sects in this country. I'd like to try and see him come to our parish and
start issuing Greek baptismal certificates.
Again, I don't hate the Greek people ....... in many ways I admire them.
But these people have to learn to start acting like modern, worldly people
instead of a bunch of backward xenophobic hillbillies.
"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ttidnU7gSIcZfxjb...@wideopenwest.com...
Aryan 666
Any institution so closely allied with their monarchs and so evil as to send
Bishops out to murder brothers in the same faith (for their monarch's
political ends) deserved to have their institution decimated. Brother Bart
better watch it before the Turks take what little church property he has
left ........ he may be deported to America where he has already made
enemies with the Russians and the OCA.
"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1pCdnfDYDddhQxjb...@wideopenwest.com...
Istor the Macedonian
to spread Greek Language and Civilization to the World.
Istor
http://makedonia.atspace.com/index.html
Aryan 666 :
> The Communists were absolutely right about the Orthodox Church.
>
> Any institution so closely allied with their monarchs and so evil as to send
> Bishops out to murder brothers in the same faith (for their monarch's
> political ends) deserved to have their institution decimated. Brother Bart
> better watch it before the Turks take what little church property he has
> left ........ he may be deported to America where he has already made
> enemies with the Russians and the OCA.
........................
OrthoNews9
diplomats know anything.
"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ttidnU7gSIcZfxjb...@wideopenwest.com...
Aryan 666
You obviously condone Hellenistic propaganda shoved down the throats of
people who don't want it ... for whom it is an alien culture.
And no, the state department in many cases doesn't know squat. And I have
already written a letter suggesting that they learn the facts and not push
this very far. I don't think its appropriate for the world's beacon of
religious and personal freedom to implicitly condone Gayreek racism.
"OrthoNews9" <newsh...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:f65jo...@enews2.newsguy.com...
OrthoNews9
> Why not just change your name to GayreekNews9.
***Jerk.
>
> You obviously condone Hellenistic propaganda shoved down the throats of
> people who don't want it ... for whom it is an alien culture.
***I'm concerned ONLY with Holy Orthodoxy, not the ethnic bull crap the
sinful people pull.
>
> And no, the state department in many cases doesn't know squat.
***I see. You are a career diplomat?
And I have
> already written a letter suggesting that they learn the facts and not push
> this very far.
***I'd like to see it. Please post it along with the name of the person to
whom you addressed it.
I don't think its appropriate for the world's beacon of
> religious and personal freedom to implicitly condone Gayreek racism.
***You demean yourself when you use such terms in place of "Greek." You
display your childishness.
Aryan 666
fascist Gayreek then you must be some holy-roller convert. They Gayreek
Patriarchate didn't shrink because it was a benevolent institution. It
shrank because it can't get it through its head that Bulgarians, Turks,
Macedonians, Romanians, Russians and Ukrainians, etc. don't want to be
forced into Hellenism and turned into faux Gayreeks. In fact, the only
alien people stupid enough to butt-kiss and turn themselves into synthetic
Gayreeks are stupid converts, stupid Vlachs and Albanians whores lookign for
work.
Bulgarians speak their own language and have their own distinct traditions.
They don't need some phony, heavy-handed, fake-Gayreek (really ethnic Turk)
Patriarchate shoving a third-rate has-been language and culture down
peoples' throats.
Again ........... name ONE western court that would have ruled differently
than the Turkish court ruled.
Go find some Baptist church and and prosthelityze there! Converts are and
their bible banging are definitely not welcome!
GO BULGARIA GO!
GO TURKEY GO!
"OrthoNews9" <newsh...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:f6619...@enews4.newsguy.com...
OrthoNews9
> Then change your name to ConvertHolyRollerNews9 because if you aren't a
> fascist Gayreek then you must be some holy-roller convert.
***I was raised a protestant. My parish church is mostly ethnic
Carpatho-Russians. (I'm a Guinness-loving Irishman.)
They Gayreek
> Patriarchate didn't shrink because it was a benevolent institution.
***Which Greek patriarch? And how do you know he's gay?
It
> shrank because it can't get it through its head that Bulgarians, Turks,
> Macedonians, Romanians, Russians and Ukrainians, etc. don't want to be
> forced into Hellenism and turned into faux Gayreeks.
***All who as members of the Holy Orthodox Church are properly called "Greek
Catholic."
In fact, the only
> alien people stupid enough to butt-kiss and turn themselves into synthetic
> Gayreeks are stupid converts, stupid Vlachs and Albanians whores lookign
> for work.
***I left protestantism because it was sending my soul to hell!
>
> Bulgarians speak their own language and have their own distinct
> traditions.
***So do people in nearly every other of the 196 nations on earth.
> They don't need some phony, heavy-handed, fake-Gayreek (really ethnic
> Turk) Patriarchate shoving a third-rate has-been language and culture down
> peoples' throats.
***Bulgarian Orthodox, Carpatho-Russian Orthodox, Russian Orthodox,
Antiochian Orthodox, Polish Orthodox, Serbian Orthodox, Czech
Orthodox...we're all Greek Catholics. Greek is the heritage of Holy
Orthodoxy. My Carpatho-Russian parish church's name is St. Michael the
Archangel Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church. The parish of the
Orthodox Church of America to which I used to belong had a cornerstone that
read St. Mary's Russian Orthodox Greek C atholic Church.
>
> Again ........... name ONE western court that would have ruled differently
> than the Turkish court ruled.
***I have no idea and it's a moot point within the Church. The Turkish court
could not have ruled otherwise without causing a stir among the militant
Muslims. The Turkish court is a secular court and has no effect on the
religious standing of the ecumenical partriarchate within the Holy Church.
>
> Go find some Baptist church and and prosthelityze there! Converts are and
> their bible banging are definitely not welcome!
***Converts to what? The mission of Holy Orthodoxy has always been to
convert people to the right-believing Church. What is your problem with
converts to Orthodoxy.
>
> GO BULGARIA GO!
***Hooray!
>
> GO TURKEY GO!
***Hooray!
Aryan 666
>
> ***I'm concerned ONLY with Holy Orthodoxy, not the ethnic bull crap the
> sinful people pull.
Aryan 666
veritas
<agam...@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote:
>State Dept. on 'ecumenical' status of Patriarch
>
Who is this "Aryan666" ? He lives in Ohio but he is an ethnic
"something" nutcase.
Does anyone know what his ethnic background is ?
He writes like he just came out of the Kosovo-Serb conflict and into
the streets of an unsuspecting America .
For Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew( a Greek ) to get justice from a
Turkish Kemalist/Nationalist/Political/Muslim court would be like a
Rabbi getting justice from a Nazi court under Chief Justice Roland
Freisler in 1933-1945 !!!!
Freisler would be more accommodating !!!!
We will see what happens ......
Did ANYONE here expect that anything else was going to happen in this
case ???
If the judge gets the order from the government/military he will find
Bartholomew "ecumenical". That's how things work there .
Come on . Who are we kidding here !! ???
Aryan 666
OrthoNews9
"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:duSdnYbTqq_dBhvb...@wideopenwest.com...
Here's a little more history for you. Read this and maybe you will know why the Partriarchate is LOATHED by the majority of Orthodox:
***Do you mean patriarch or patriarchate? Most Orthodox have high regard for the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.
On the 24 September 1905, when Dimitraki had just turned five, Bulgarian Exarchist(40) comatidji killed two Greeks in Mavrovo.(41) These killings were in retaliation for Patriarchist(42) murders and massacres committed against Serbian and Bulgarian populations who had rebelled against the dominance of Hellenism and the Patriarchate. Religion was a tool of geopolitical and nationalist aims, and the religious used politics to serve their ends.The same behaviors continue to this day. That is why I say you'd better know the history of what's going on here before you speak. Anyone who kills people because they refuse to become Gayreeks by force is no "spiritual leader" HE IS SATAN INCARNATE!.
***So, you are living in the past. How sad. This is 2007. Patriarch Bartholomew is a wonderful person.
Now you might understand a little more about the implications of this judicial verdict.
***Outside of Turkey, the so-called ruling of the court has no effect whatsoever. It was strictly a secular, Turkish ruling. It has absolutely no effect on Holy Orthodoxy.
The GAYREEKS should be ashamed. They are not civilized people.
***some say this about the GayRussians!!!
OrthoNews9
"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:Euidnaqf1NyKBRvb...@wideopenwest.com...
"OrthoNews9" <newsh...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:f6619...@enews4.newsguy.com...>
>
> ***I'm concerned ONLY with Holy Orthodoxy, not the ethnic bull crap the
> sinful people pull.If this were really true, then you would be taking the side of the Bulgarian priests who only want to worship and minister to their flock in their own language
***No problem.
........ and who see the Exarchate of Bulgaria as their spiritual leader rather than having the powerless figurehead of a dying institution use heavy-handed tactics of yore to create phony facts for future historical fabrication.
***Personal hatred often get in the way of our salvation. We should be concerned with the salvation of our souls and let the Holy Spirt sort through the sordid mess of which you speak.
If you were really interested in Orthodoxy, then you would be on the side of the Bulgarians, who have suffered GREATLY at the hands of the EVIL PATRIARCHATE OF ISTANBUL.
***I'm appalled by everything evil committed in the name of Christ since the Church began. No one ever asked me before to be on one side or the other. I'm not. I'm just interested in the Church, not ethnic prejudices.
Here ................. chew on this:"Unfortunately in its zeal to promote all things Orthodox, Greek and Hellenic, the overbearing Patriarchate, through its Archbishops, Bishops and clergy, imposed the Greek language and even Greek identity on the peasants of Serbia and Bulgaria. The Bulgarian people near lost their heritage as by the end of the eighteenth century they identified themselves as Greek to foreign travelers.(23)"--Schevill, The History of the Balkan Peninsula, from the Earliest Times to the Present Day, 385. [Return to the text at note 23.]THIS IS CLEARLY WHAT YOU SUPPORT!
***I never stated this. to claim that I support this is a blatant lie. Shame on you!
Aryan 666
"OrthoNews9" <newsh...@nospam.net> wrote in message news:f666l...@enews5.newsguy.com...
Aryan 666
"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:BdCdnRIqfrM3Ahvb...@wideopenwest.com...
OrthoNews9
"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:BfOdndb7S_pZOBvb...@wideopenwest.com...
OrthoNews9
"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:e9udnXuPVbJzABvb...@wideopenwest.com...
++
>Who is this "Aryan666" ? He lives in Ohio but he is an ethnic
>"something" nutcase.
>
>
Actually he is a pretty ordinary person with a professional job but the
world's worst netname (on purpose, because he is anti-fascist)
>Does anyone know what his ethnic background is ?
>
>
yes
>He writes like he just came out of the Kosovo-Serb conflict and into
>the streets of an unsuspecting America .
>
>
no, he's an American born product
>For Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew( a Greek ) to get justice from a
>Turkish Kemalist/Nationalist/Political/Muslim court would be like a
>Rabbi getting justice from a Nazi court under Chief Justice Roland
>Freisler in 1933-1945 !!!!
>
>
You have to actually look at the case before you come to the conclusion
that "justice" was not being done. It actually was being done
appropriately, my personal opinion (and the opinion of many). The
Bulgarian and the Greek community are both sanctioned religious
communities in Turkey, i.e. equal according to the law. The Patriarch
of Constantinople attempted to set rules for the representative of the
Bulgarian Orthodox Church in Istanbul, quite a long and august
institution with its own report to hierarchy situation. I.e., the
priest of the Bulgarian community or the bishop or whoever was sent to
Tsarigrad. (Note that if the Patriarch is calling Istanbul as
Constantinople, as historically, then the proper name for Istanbul in
most Slavic languages, including Bulgarian is Tsarigrad, i.e. the
Tsar/Emperor's grad/city, virtually the same meaning as Constantinople,
i.e. Constantine [the Great]'s polis/city) .
The Patriarch of Constantinople has been continuing a political policy
of attempting to show that the Constantinoplitan Patriarchate is the
Orthodox equivalent of the Papacy to Roman Catholics, i.e. that he has a
special ruling role over other Orthodox Patriarchates, autonomous and
autocephalous churches in the one Orthodox Church. This concept is at
variance to the non-hierarchical nature of the roles of all monks and
prelates and all clergy major and minor in the Orthodox Church. Rather
than being one great organization chart, the Orthodox Church is mostly
who is where with certain restrictions put upon those monks who are
bishops in terms of interfering with the authority of others and
establishing essentially equal roles, except when some local churches
come under large jurisdictions that have within them their own
hierarchical levels. Still, although the Pope claims infallibility and
a special nature that Bishops (including Patriarchs) do not claim, and
although there is a real pecking order for holiness and authority within
the Roman Catholic Church, aside from the special prerogatives of the
Bishop in general, like ordaining and excommunicating, there is
absolutely no degree of holiness greater in a Patriarch than a street
cleaner who is an ordinary Orthodox layperson.
In terms of being a higher degree of spiritual leader, this isn't so
much an Orthodox concept as the Orthodox concept that Orthodox
Christians should choose and use a spiritual guide and confessor on a
regular basis. Not for us the anonymous prayer booth through which the
faces of confessor and priest are never revealed. For us it is the
bench or the chair or the place we stand with our confessors and bring
them up on our spiritual lives and ordinary daily challenges and
choices. Patriarch Bartholomew confesses to his spiritual father, just
as I would. He has his own spiritual leader. And he himself is a
spiritual leader insofar and as much as he prays and works to be one.
His environmental lectures, his attempts to bring together especially
the Antiochian and Syrian and Orthodox Christian communities (as they
truly are close and can resolve their differences and learn from each
other's holiness) are areas in which we can truly say that he has been
an ecumenical, i.e. worldwide spiritual leader. His reasoned opposition
to the War in Iraq in terms of all its costs spiritual and material has
been another arena of leadership in which the Patriarch has excelled
worldwide. That he has been able to be that level of leader with the
Greek community he is directly responsible for in Turkey diminishing
daily and under ever increasing fundamentalist local Moslem threat,
irregardless of the Turkish state, is commendable. The fact that he has
accomplished a worldwide presence on limited funds in a Church mostly
funded by faraway North America, while coming from a tiny ethnic
minority in only one tiny section of Turkey is remarkable.
In other of his decisions, he has been less than a world class leader,
the most obvious of these being his man in America, Spiridon, and his
lack of leadership in turning former Ottoman sanctioned Greek control
over Phanariot institutions in the Holy Land, in Africa, and in other ex
Phanariot areas into truly multinational, multiethnic, truly ecumenical
institutions. In this he has failed on the ecumenical end of his
office, just as did his predecessors, Athenagoras being a stranger
example of this xenophobic grasping beast of an office.
But I think his attempt to show a local example of his ploy to make
himself and his job appear something that they have not been for a
millennium in terms of ecumenicity in a multiethnic and multinational
environment, is a failure. I once tried to trace this new notion of
"Spiritual Leader to 800 million Orthodox Christian worldwide" to the
same propaganda campaign that created "His Most High Holiness" out of
the simpler titles used for past patriarchs. I think the whole attempt
a failure for a very practical reason, that when you exalt yourself ,
you distance yourself. Where an ordinary Christian might like the
occasion of thinking that Athenagoras has been an important bishop in
her life, His MOST High Holiness is not so friendly a concept, nor an
Orthodox one.
>Freisler would be more accommodating !!!!
>
>We will see what happens ......
>
>Did ANYONE here expect that anything else was going to happen in this case ???
>
>If the judge gets the order from the government/military he will find Bartholomew "ecumenical". That's how things work there .
>
>
The basic court case on the ability of the EP to decide on other
jurisdictions of Orthodoxy in his country was already decided in court
in 1987. If one wishes to take the point of the actual office of the
EP, which is presiding AT ECUMENICAL [only] COUNCILS, then this was lost
previously as well since the BP through his Bulgarian representatives in
the Exarchate in Tsarigrad decides on the who and the where of BP
meetings and convocations. But, maybe not since they are not church
councils, i.e. meetings arranged by whomever wherever at which the EP
would traditionally for issues dealing with the whole of Orthodoxy
INSTEAD OF [only] LOCAL MATTERS preside. But when we are talking about
presiding, we are talking about the person who like, in Roberts Rules of
Order, brings the meeting to order, establishes the agenda and
facilitates the equal and equitable participation of all to the benefit
of all. At that same Ecumenical Council, the Bulgarian Patriarch would
also be equally represented with the Constantinoplitan Patriarch, in
today's terms being Patriarchs Maxim and Bartholomew. It would be
questionable whether or not the official language of an ecumenical
council would even be in Greek, or that the "first Among Equals" in
bringing a council to order would even be Constantinople among the
Patriarchs, because by the time of such a council, the Roman Catholic
Church might have returned form heresy to Orthodoxy and be the one who
would traditionally head the meeting. Ancient epitomes as well as other
Council documents exist, after all, in Latin, Greek and other languages,
in whole or in part. Maybe the next council would be primarily in
Russian, English and Greek?.
Istor the Macedonian
all!
Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek
veritas :
Aryan 666
Istanbul, Turkey
Dirt Squatter, therefore Turk
"Istor the Macedonian" <is...@in.gr> wrote in message
news:1183236957.0...@n60g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Istor the Macedonian
.................
> The Patriarch of Constantinople has been continuing a political policy
> of attempting to show that the Constantinoplitan Patriarchate is the
> Orthodox equivalent of the Papacy to Roman Catholics, i.e. that he has a
> special ruling role over other Orthodox Patriarchates, autonomous and
> autocephalous churches in the one Orthodox Church. This concept is at
++ or Galinitsa is the most imbecile SlavoSkopian propagandist.
A defender of s schismatic and heretic church, that is SlavoSkopian
'church'.
A 'church' who denies truth of Holy Bible:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/415923/message/1175463099
veritas
wrote:
>He is an imbecile SlavoSkopian propagandist with no self respect at
>all!
>
A REMINDER FROM HISTORY :
This about Bulgarian --IMRO terrorist nationalism . Nothing less .
And the Bulgarian National Myth about themselves and "Macedonia" ,
their hatred for the Greeks the Serbs the Romanians the Jews etc .
In 1941-45 these same people were busy murdering Greeks and Jews in
the Holocaust in Northern Greece and Southern Yugoslavia before the
Soviet army forced them to withdraw back into Bulgaria .
Old fashioned Bulgarian irredentism .
They consider Greeks their ancient enemies since Byzantine times.They
hate them .
Of course they have never done bad things to others only the others do
bad things to them :) How very convenient :))
Just ask the Greeks and the Israelis at Yad Vashem about
Bulgarians.They are not lily white and innocent .
The Bulgarian/Macedonian/IMRO National Myth is back !
Pure propaganda . They apparently haven't learned their lesson after
getting beaten badly in wars in the past .Apparently they want to
lose some more territory..
Read about the Holocaust and Bulgarians .
They agreed to be sided with Hitler on the condition that the Germans
gave Northern Greece and Southern Yugoslavia to Bulgaria ( which they
did) in 1941-45.
They then proceeded to murder and ethnically cleanse 500,000 Greeks
and the Jewish population before 1945 .
Jews remember even if Aryan666 doesn't.... :))
Aryan666 is a fanatic.
Anyway, this has nothing to do with religion and I am crossing
myself.Sorry everyone else if this degenerates into a "Macedonia"
flamefest .....again .
veritas
wrote:
> ++ :
Thank you for letting me know.
veritas
wrote:
>He is an imbecile SlavoSkopian propagandist with no self respect at
>all!
I thought so . Ohio is where they all are ..Akron etc
Anyway , discoursing with fanatical propagandists that are NOTHING
offline is like talking reason to a brick wall.
Thanks for the tip. He's filled the Orthodox newsgroup with filth.
Aryan 666
unchristianlike behavior towards fellow Orthodox christians.
What would YOU do if an Outside Albanian Bishop claimed he had control over
your churches and imposed Albanian on your parish? What would YOU do if an
Outside Albanian Bishops were sent in to kill the local Orthodox faithful?
You wouldn't have much respect for this idiot, would you?
Why should I have respect for YOUR idiot?
"veritas" <veritas@coming_soon.com> wrote in message
news:rvhd83d35jogl3tub...@4ax.com...
Istor the Macedonian
http://www.network54.com/Forum/415923/message/1126215175
Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek
Aryan 666 :
> The only filth is the actions of Bastard Bart and his predecessors and their
> unchristianlike behavior towards fellow Orthodox christians.
......................
Istor the Macedonian
Aryan 666 :
> John Alep
> Istanbul, Turkey
> Dirt Squatter, therefore Turk
We have left no Turkish toponyms in Macedonia.
How about FYROM dear Turkish licker ??
Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek
Aryan 666
> veritas wrote:
>
> You have to actually look at the case before you come to the conclusion
> that "justice" was not being done. It actually was being done
> appropriately, my personal opinion (and the opinion of many). The
> Bulgarian and the Greek community are both sanctioned religious
> communities in Turkey, i.e. equal according to the law. The Patriarch of
> Constantinople attempted to set rules for the representative of the
> Bulgarian Orthodox Church in Istanbul, quite a long and august institution
> with its own report to hierarchy situation. I.e., the priest of the
> Bulgarian community or the bishop or whoever was sent to Tsarigrad.
> (Note that if the Patriarch is calling Istanbul as Constantinople, as
> historically, then the proper name for Istanbul in most Slavic languages,
> including Bulgarian is Tsarigrad, i.e. the Tsar/Emperor's grad/city,
> virtually the same meaning as Constantinople, i.e. Constantine [the
> Great]'s polis/city).
This is exactly what's going on. Gayreek chauvinism born out of a
shrinking, paranoid, xenophobic, weak figurehead clinging for his dear life.
What this pompous malaka doesn't understand is you can no grow your flock by
using brutish, thuggish tactics. Nobody is going to become subservient to
you by force, especially when you have no power over them anymore. If you
want to bring them into the fold, YOU have to accommodate them rather than
attempt to use heavy-handed tactics to force them into your flock.
When you drive up to the ATM and you see "Press here for Spanish" ....... do
you think the banks want to do this? It costs them time, money and hassle.
But they know they lose customers if the don't do this.
Bart needs to go back to college and take some basic psychology and
marketing courses. When people already hate you for killing them and trying
to cram hellenism down their throats several hundred years ago, you don't
exactly endear yourself to them when you continue to do the same things.
Aryan 666
"Istor the Macedonian" <is...@in.gr> wrote in message
news:1183239086....@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
Aryan 666
Istanbul, Turkey
Dirt Squatter, therefore Turk
"Istor the Macedonian" <is...@in.gr> wrote in message
news:1183239277.4...@n2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Istor the Macedonian
OrthoNews9
> Bart needs to go back to college and take some basic psychology and
> marketing courses. When people already hate you for killing them and
> trying to cram hellenism down their throats several hundred years ago, you
> don't exactly endear yourself to them when you continue to do the same
> things.
***People who hate, like you, give Orthodoxy a bad name. I'm ashamed to
admit you are an Orthodox Christian.
OrthoNews9
surely the Evil One!
"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:QY-dndZNpOa4Uhvb...@wideopenwest.com...
OrthoNews9
> The only filth is the actions of Bastard Bart and his predecessors and
> their unchristianlike behavior towards fellow Orthodox christians.
***This paragraph is an example of the filth you have infected NGs with. You
act exactly the way an Orthodox Christian should NOT act. I pity you.
>
> What would YOU do if an Outside Albanian Bishop claimed he had control
> over your churches and imposed Albanian on your parish? What would YOU do
> if an Outside Albanian Bishops were sent in to kill the local Orthodox
> faithful? You wouldn't have much respect for this idiot, would you?
***Such tripe!
>
> Why should I have respect for YOUR idiot?
***Because he is an Orthodox Christian and a hierarch.
Aryan 666
>
>> What would YOU do if an Outside Albanian Bishop claimed he had control
>> over your churches and imposed Albanian on your parish? What would YOU
>> do
>> if an Outside Albanian Bishops were sent in to kill the local Orthodox
>> faithful? You wouldn't have much respect for this idiot, would you?
>
> ***Such tripe!
Answer the question because that is exactly what he did. He was trying to
force a Bulgarian priest who is not under his jurisdiction to perform his
services in to his Bulgarian Orthodox parish in Gayreek. Are you so dense
that you cannot understand how heavy handed and evil that is?
>> Why should I have respect for YOUR idiot?
>
>
> ***Because he is an Orthodox Christian and a hierarch.
He is an idiot. As Galina explained so well, hierarchy is a western
concept; we are all equals in the Orthodox faith.
veritas
wrote:
Are you and Galina Orthodox theologians now ?
By the way , if people go to schismatic churches they are
phony-Orthodox .
None of us around the world need you .We need to protect the spiritual
health of children from your sin.
All schsmatic rebels need to be excommunicated NOW !
OrthoNews9
***Aryan666 is vagante...noncanonical...he is NOT part of Holy Orthodoxy so
there's no need for excommunication. You cannot excommunicate someone who is
not part of the Orthodox Church to begin with. Schismatics are NOT part of
our Holy Church.
OrthoNews9
sound likesome of the old Russians who complain that the Patriarch of Moscow
was once subjugated by the former Soviet government.
"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jqSdnYr2so9eehvb...@wideopenwest.com...
***Er...um..."western"? Have you not read your Bible lately. A hierarchy
dates to New Testament times.
Aryan 666
>
> ***Aryan666 is vagante...noncanonical...he is NOT part of Holy Orthodoxy
> so there's no need for excommunication. You cannot excommunicate someone
> who is not part of the Orthodox Church to begin with. Schismatics are NOT
> part of our Holy Church.
"Our" holy NOTHING. Go back to your fake protestant storefront church and
leave us real orthodox alone. You only have a pedantic understanding of
religion and the way these people work ......... Being a slave to an
institution is a protestant concept. Use your common sense, study history
and THINK FOR YOURSELF.
The Patriarchate KILLED Macedonians, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Albanians,
Serbians, Ukrainians, Romanians and Bulgarians who wouldn't toe the line and
allow themselves to be converted to Hellenism.
That's RIGHT, they were responsible for their death. If you can't see that
the same institutional behaviors continue to this day, then you are just
plain stupid.
There is a reason this institution's "flock" has shrunkin to 3,000 people
and it isn't because it was spreading benevolence and love.
Learn some history and stop sounding like some ignorant lemming.
veritas
wrote:
>
Jews and Greeks remember, even if Aryan666 doesn't :))
Visit Yad Vashem Mr "666" .
Istor the Macedonian
>.....................
> ***Because he is an Orthodox Christian and a hierarch.
>
> He is an idiot. As Galina explained so well, hierarchy is a western
> concept; we are all equals in the Orthodox faith.
What ???
How pathetic Galinitsa can be ??!!!
Damn you SlavoSkopian propagandists !!!
hierarchy is the bonds of Christianity !!!
Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek
Istor the Macedonian
>................................
> The Patriarchate KILLED Macedonians, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Albanians,
> Serbians, Ukrainians, Romanians and Bulgarians who wouldn't toe the line and
> allow themselves to be converted to Hellenism.
Ti les vre MALAKA !!
patriarchate protected Macedonians against Slavic attempt of brutall
assimilation!
Patriarchate accepted even anti-canonical terms asked by Bulgarians in
Macedonia, but Slavs wanted separation and non-agreement.
Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek
Aryan 666
"Istor the Macedonian" <is...@in.gr> wrote in message
news:1183298511.3...@u2g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
lies, lies, lies ................... MORE Gayreek lies ...................
Gayreek lies never stop.
If what you say is true, then WHY IS BASTARD BART TRYING TO FORCE GREEK
LANGUAGE ON A BULGARIAN CHURCH IN ISTANBUL ??????????
lies, lies, lies ................... MORE Gayreek lies ...................
Gayreek lies never stop.
veritas
wrote:
>
ALL ORTHODOX Christians in Istanbul are under the Ecumenical
Patriarchate .
It doesn't matter if they speak Bulgarian , Greek or CHINESE .
That is WORLD WIDE ORTHODOX CHURCH LAW .
What part of this simple concept do you not understand ?
Istor the Macedonian
> > Ti les vre MALAKA !!
> >
> > patriarchate protected Macedonians against Slavic attempt of brutall
> > assimilation!
> > Patriarchate accepted even anti-canonical terms asked by Bulgarians in
> > Macedonia, but Slavs wanted separation and non-agreement.
> >
> > Istor
> > Macedonian, therefore Greek
>
> lies, lies, lies ................... MORE Gayreek lies ...................
> Gayreek lies never stop.
>
> If what you say is true, then WHY IS BASTARD BART TRYING TO FORCE GREEK
> LANGUAGE ON A BULGARIAN CHURCH IN ISTANBUL ??????????
>
> lies, lies, lies ................... MORE Gayreek lies ...................
> Gayreek lies never stop.
This is a LIE !!!
Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek
Aryan 666
That's what the case said. The case was brought by the Bulgarian Church
Foundation because he was trying to force the priest to 1) refer to him in
his prayers; 2) perform services in the Gayreek language; and 3) issue
baptismal and marriage certificates in Gayreek.
*****I call that shoving Hellenism down peoples' throats.
*****I call these the same games played in the 19th and 20th century.
*****I call this non-eccumennical.
If this is all true, then Bastard Bart is a Buffoon!
Have a nice day.
Istor the Macedonian
.................
> That's what the case said. The case was brought by the Bulgarian Church
> Foundation because he was trying to force the priest to 1) refer to him in
> his prayers; 2) perform services in the Gayreek language; and 3) issue
> baptismal and marriage certificates in Gayreek.
>
> Have a nice day.
And you believed it, right, MALAKA??
ALL Christian members around a Bishopric MUST refer and pray for their
Bishop, in this case Patriarch of Polis. Whoever denies this is
canonicaly aborted because he is heretic and schismatic.
The other accusations are added by Bulgarian or Turkish or
SlavoSkopian propagandists.
Aryan 666
> Aryan 666 :
> .................
>> That's what the case said. The case was brought by the Bulgarian Church
>> Foundation because he was trying to force the priest to 1) refer to him
>> in
>> his prayers; 2) perform services in the Gayreek language; and 3) issue
>> baptismal and marriage certificates in Gayreek.
> .....................
>>
>> Have a nice day.
>
> And you believed it, right, MALAKA??
History is replete with examples of this same kind of behavior. So why
shouldn't I believe it?
OrthoNews9
>
> "OrthoNews9" <newsh...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:f670m...@enews1.newsguy.com...
>>
>> ***Aryan666 is vagante...noncanonical...he is NOT part of Holy Orthodoxy
>> so there's no need for excommunication. You cannot excommunicate someone
>> who is not part of the Orthodox Church to begin with. Schismatics are NOT
>> part of our Holy Church.
>
> "Our" holy NOTHING. Go back to your fake protestant storefront church and
> leave us real orthodox alone.
***Real Orthodox do not display y.our kind of hate.
You only have a pedantic understanding of
> religion and the way these people work ......... Being a slave to an
> institution is a protestant concept. Use your common sense, study history
> and THINK FOR YOURSELF.
***I don't care how much understanding I do or do not have. What is
disturbing is your anti-Orthodox hate mongering. Who is your priest and
where is he located?
>
> The Patriarchate KILLED Macedonians, Vlachs, Bulgarians, Albanians,
> Serbians, Ukrainians, Romanians and Bulgarians who wouldn't toe the line
> and allow themselves to be converted to Hellenism.
>
> That's RIGHT, they were responsible for their death. If you can't see
> that the same institutional behaviors continue to this day, then you are
> just plain stupid.
>
> There is a reason this institution's "flock" has shrunkin to 3,000 people
> and it isn't because it was spreading benevolence and love.
***The E.P.'s local flock is minimal. But his worldwide flock counts in the
millions. My diocese in the U.S. is under the E.P.
>
> Learn some history and stop sounding like some ignorant lemming.
***Forget history. I'm concerned with your soul.
OrthoNews9
***I think the guy who uses the mark of Satan, 666, is the liar.
veritas
<newsh...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>"Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:05idnfKfRp3lqBrb...@wideopenwest.com...
Here is a good book written by someone from the former Yugoslavia
about people like Aryan666(and their apologists) and their modus
operandi.
Essentially , these are crypto-communist sympathizers using the
Orthodox Church as a TOOL of ugly nationalism .
Unfortunately for them they will not have a pretty end as they are
surrounded by countries they have peed off.
Let them scream and holler.That's all they can do.
Aryan 666
>
>
> ***Real Orthodox do not display y.our kind of hate.
You must not watch the news.
Aryan 666
LOOK
WHO'S
TALKING!
"veritas" <veritas@coming_soon.com> wrote in message
news:1cbg83l8c1f56192s...@4ax.com...
Aryan 666
>
> ***The E.P.'s local flock is minimal. But his worldwide flock counts in
> the millions. My diocese in the U.S. is under the E.P.
Figures your bishops are stupid whores who sold out to the gayreeks.
veritas
++
>ALL ORTHODOX Christians in Istanbul are under the Ecumenical
>Patriarchate .
>
>It doesn't matter if they speak Bulgarian , Greek or CHINESE .
>
>That is WORLD WIDE ORTHODOX CHURCH LAW .
>
>What part of this simple concept do you not understand ?
>
>
>
>
Uh, no, you are incorrect as to representation churches abroad. They do
not become the property and jurisdiction of the local church. And the
EP is NOT an uber jurisdiction . He cannot defrock or send away another
priest in another jurisdiction. He cannot ordain anyone outside his
jurisdiction. And his jurisdiction does not include representational
churches of other jurisdictions around and about.
veritas
wrote:
>ROFLMAO!
>
>LOOK
>
>WHO'S
>
>TALKING!
You can keep laughing all you like.
Your "church" is anti-Orthodox ; sort of like the "red-Catholic"
church in the Peoples' Republic of China is anti-Catholic.
You want to manipulate religion for your own selfish POLITICAL
ends--that is heresy and evil .
You are not Orthodox .
veritas
You don't know what you're talking about .
Are there Greek Orthodox Churches inside Bulgaria ?
NO .
Why do you think that is ?
What I wrote before stands . This whole thing was because the priest (
who was brought from Bulgaria ) is a nationalist and he was paranoid
about the ethic "Bulgarians" becoming too "Greek" .
Same old story . Nothing changes ever . Its still 1913 for them .
Ukraine vs Russians , Slavic-Macedonians v the rest of the Orthodox
world , Estonians v Russians ....the list goes on and on .
Its still early days yet .
Aryan 666
> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:20:13 -0400, ++ <sp...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> What I wrote before stands . This whole thing was because the priest (
> who was brought from Bulgaria ) is a nationalist and he was paranoid
> about the ethic "Bulgarians" becoming too "Greek" .
GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK HEAD:
WE DON'T LIKE YOUR UGLY, GUTTERAL, WORTHLESS GAYREEK TONGUE THAT ONLY 10
MILLION PEOPLE SPEAK .......... 3 MILLION OF WHOM WERE BY FORCE.
WE THINK GAYREEK "CULTURE" IS WORTHLESS (AND MOSTLY TURKISH, ANYWAY) AND
DON'T WANT IT SHOVED DOWN OUR THROATS ........ ESPECIALLY IN CHURCHES THAT
ARE OUR OWN AND THAT WE OWN.
THAT'S WHY BASTARD BART'S ENCLAVE KEEPS SHRINKING ... AND SHRINKING ... AND
SHRINKING ... AND SHRINKING ... AND SHRINKING!
veritas
wrote:
>
>"veritas" <veritas@coming_soon.com> wrote in message
>news:i4fg83ttei8urhst2...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:20:13 -0400, ++ <sp...@erols.com> wrote:
>>
>> What I wrote before stands . This whole thing was because the priest (
>> who was brought from Bulgaria ) is a nationalist and he was paranoid
>> about the ethic "Bulgarians" becoming too "Greek" .
>
If you don't like it then get out of Turkey and go back to Bulgaria
.There you can have Bulgarian .In Istanbul Bartholomew is your
spiritual hierarch -- that is if you are canonical Orthodox .
Still dreaming of Greater Bulgaria heh ? :))
Haven't enough Greeks , Jews and others suffered because of what you
did in this pursuit in the past???
Those people haven't forgotten what you did. Visit Yad Vashem .
War Criminals , you have a lot of blood on your hands.
You don't learn .
Aryan 666
The Jews hold the Bulgarians and Macedonians in high reverence. But ask
most Jews what they think of the Gayreeks and what they did to them during
the war. The Gayreeks were all too eager to accept German help in
sanitizing Solun of its true inhabitants. This is documented in most world
history books ... except those in Gayreece.
veritas
wrote:
>
>"veritas" <veritas@coming_soon.com> wrote in message
>news:u3gg83phjiuk7ra54...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 19:55:45 -0400, "Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Haven't enough Greeks , Jews and others suffered because of what you
>> did in this pursuit in the past???
>>
>> Those people haven't forgotten what you did. Visit Yad Vashem .
>
>The Jews hold the Bulgarians and Macedonians in high reverence. But ask
>most Jews what they think of the Gayreeks and what they did to them during
>the war. The Gayreeks were all too eager to accept German help in
>sanitizing Solun of its true inhabitants. This is documented in most world
>history books ... except those in Gayreece.
>
You know you are really full of it .
3,000,000 heh ?? Is that what you believe ?
And what do you intend to do about it ?
1913 , 1941-45 , 1946-49 .....see a pattern ?????
You need to be taught a lesson again me thinks .
Unfortunately people like you only learn the hard way and only want
wars......
Keep playing with numbers Mr Propaganda ....:))
OrthoNews9
"++" <sp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:T-CdnRPSYeExqxXb...@rcn.net...
***It's almost a moot point, Gail. The E.P.'s jurisdiction encompasses
millions of Orthodox worldwide.
OrthoNews9
> On Sun, 01 Jul 2007 19:20:13 -0400, ++ <sp...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>veritas wrote:
>>
>>>ALL ORTHODOX Christians in Istanbul are under the Ecumenical
>>>Patriarchate .
>>>
>>>It doesn't matter if they speak Bulgarian , Greek or CHINESE .
>>>
>>>That is WORLD WIDE ORTHODOX CHURCH LAW .
>>>
>>>What part of this simple concept do you not understand ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Uh, no, you are incorrect as to representation churches abroad. They do
>>not become the property and jurisdiction of the local church. And the
>>EP is NOT an uber jurisdiction . He cannot defrock or send away another
>>priest in another jurisdiction. He cannot ordain anyone outside his
>>jurisdiction. And his jurisdiction does not include representational
>>churches of other jurisdictions around and about.
>
>
> You don't know what you're talking about .
>
> Are there Greek Orthodox Churches inside Bulgaria ?
>
> NO .
***Well, there are no Russian Orthodox parishes in Greece. So what?
OrthoNews9
***AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OrthoNews9
***Better the Carpatho-Russians in the U.S. come under the E.P than under
their former Roman Catholic oppressors!
***The E.P. has been wonderful to the Carpatho-Russians, even allowing them
to retain their local Uniate traditions and practices.
Aryan 666
ROFLMAO!
LOOK
WHO'S
TALKING!
GO BACK TO YOUR BIBLE-BANGING PROTESTANT CHURCH THEY ARE MISSING DUPES LIKE
YOU WILLING TO TURN OVER 10% OF THEIR PAY SO THE PREACHER CAN PAY FOR HIS
GIRLFRIENDS ABORTION. YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THAT WITH THE GAYREEKS
BECUASE THEY ARE ALL FAGGOTS.
veritas
wrote:
>
>"OrthoNews9" <newsh...@nospam.net> wrote in message
>news:f69js...@enews1.newsguy.com...
idiot !
veritas
The EP is very tolerant .
e.g. the case of the Estonians , the Ukrainians , the people in
Finland etc etc
People trust it .
All this B.S. about the Greek language is just a sideshow by Aryan666
and his mafia.
veritas
<newsh...@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>"veritas" <veritas@coming_soon.com> wrote in message
>news:v1dg839oi4e1q5gub...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 19:00:09 -0400, "Aryan 666" <arya...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"OrthoNews9" <newsh...@nospam.net> wrote in message
>>>news:f699d...@enews1.newsguy.com...
>>>>
>>>> ***The E.P.'s local flock is minimal. But his worldwide flock counts in
>>>> the millions. My diocese in the U.S. is under the E.P.
>>>
>>>Figures your bishops are stupid whores who sold out to the gayreeks.
>>>
>>
>>
>> You are a commie.
>
>
>***Better the Carpatho-Russians in the U.S. come under the E.P than under
>their former Roman Catholic oppressors!
I can imagine ...
>***The E.P. has been wonderful to the Carpatho-Russians, even allowing them
>to retain their local Uniate traditions and practices.
>
See , for Aryan666 Bartholomew is just a "Greek" . Sort of like those
that hate all Germans and Benedict is just another "Kraut" .
That's what is wrong with Europe.
veritas
The point I was making is that in Greece Christodoulos is the hierach.
In Russia it is Alexei .
In Istanbul it is Bartholomew etc etc
++
The Ukrainians already had a couple three Orthodox jurisdictions. Why
does the Patriarchate of Constantinople need to rule over the Ukraine?
Why don't the Finns and the Estonians have their own autocephalous
churches. Why were they able to hop jurisdictions from Moscow?
>People trust it .
>
>All this B.S. about the Greek language is just a sideshow by Aryan666
>and his mafia.
>
>
The worst part of the issue was that Bartholomew attempted to fire a
priest in another Patriarch's jurisdiction
>
>
>
Istor the Macedonian
Open your eyes idiots !!
Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek
Aryan 666 :
> "Istor the Macedonian" <is...@in.gr> wrote in message
.......
> >
> > And you believed it, right, MALAKA??
>
> History is replete with examples of this same kind of behavior. So why
> shouldn't I believe it?
Istor the Macedonian
++ :
........................
> Uh, no, you are incorrect as to representation churches abroad. They do
> not become the property and jurisdiction of the local church. And the
> EP is NOT an uber jurisdiction . He cannot defrock or send away another
> priest in another jurisdiction. He cannot ordain anyone outside his
> jurisdiction. And his jurisdiction does not include representational
> churches of other jurisdictions around and about.
Ti les mori MALAKISMENI ???!!!!
Why would EP care about another jusrisdiction prieast ??
Amd why that priest should obey to EP ??
Back to the pre-Exarch times, in order to re-establish Exarch churches
in Polis ???
Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek
Istor the Macedonian
veritas :
> On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 21:10:20 -0400, "OrthoNews9"
>
>
> The point I was making is that in Greece Christodoulos is the hierach.
> In Russia it is Alexei .
>
> In Istanbul it is Bartholomew etc etc
Don't talk to him seriously dear brothers.
That idiot equalizes his mouth with his ass, be sure about that.
Ha is visibly malakas.
Just focus on what Galinitsa says for she is invisibly malakismeni !!
Istor
Macedonian, therefore Greek
Istor the Macedonian
..........................
> The Ukrainians already had a couple three Orthodox jurisdictions. Why
> does the Patriarchate of Constantinople need to rule over the Ukraine?
> Why don't the Finns and the Estonians have their own autocephalous
> churches. Why were they able to hop jurisdictions from Moscow?
Because that was the will of peoples there, maybe ????????????
> The worst part of the issue was that Bartholomew attempted to fire a
> priest in another Patriarch's jurisdiction
This is a LIE !!!
You cannot built an Orthodox church without the permission of the
local Bishop.
And finally, can ANY prieast resort to political courts for solving
canonical problems?
Istor,
Macedonian, therefore Gereek
OrthoNews9
***Okay. But in the case of the Russian and Constantinople churches, their
dioceses, exarchates, metropolitanates, etc. extend beyond their country
borders.
OrthoNews9
***Why does agreeing with you make me an idiot? that would mean you are an
idiot, too!! LOL!
Aryan 666
Istanbul, Turkey
Dirt Squatter, therefore Turk
"Istor the Macedonian" <is...@in.gr> wrote in message
news:1183374089.5...@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
veritas
<newsh...@nospam.net> wrote:
Here is the crux of the issue . The problem of overlapping
jurisdictions .
I have spoken to that Bulgarian priest when I was in America by
telephone because one of the Bulgarian Psalters is a good friend of
mine from when I visited Istanbul ..
He spoke Greek to me and seemed quite nice so I was surprised that
all this blew up . He never told me about the court case though .
Anyway , this whole incident is very unfortunate.
Everyone has lost .....everyone that is except the Turks.
Everyone played right into their hands.
veritas
You told me to kill file that Aryan666 guy so I did .
I was responding to him . I neglected to snip out your name .
Sorry Al :)))
Peter
++
>>***Okay. But in the case of the Russian and Constantinople churches, their
>>dioceses, exarchates, metropolitanates, etc. extend beyond their country
>>borders.
>>
>Here is the crux of the issue . The problem of overlapping jurisdictions .
>
>
It is not OVERLAPPING jurisdicitons, like two parts of a Venn diagram
and you are talking about that overlapping part.
It is a matter of two separate jurisdictions, one local, one elsewhere,
a two interpretations of the jurisdictions according to law, canon law
and Turkish law..
The local jurisdiction is Constantinopolitan Patriarchate.
The abroad jurisdiction, to which Bartholomew owed respect, was the
Bulgarian Patriarchate.
The local representation of the abroad jurisdiction is the Bulgarian
Exarchate in Istanbul, recognized as a Bulgarian community Orthodox
Church. It has historic and minority status, just as the Phanariot
Greek community has historic and minority status. Neither community
has been subject to each other.
The Patriarch of Constantinople and the Patriarch of Bulgaria are equal
under canon law, except if there should be, in the future, a council of
autonomous, autocephalous and patriarchal representatives which would
allow the Patriarch of Constantinople the priviledge of chairng the
meeting (but only chairing the meeting, not having any kind of special
pwer like veto, setting an agenda or otherwise being considered the
higher of another of the representatives). It is honorary, and the
honorary head position is similar to the position given the host of a
dinner who breaks the bread to start the meal, gives or causes to have
given the grace, etc.
>I have spoken to that Bulgarian priest when I was in America by telephone because one of the Bulgarian Psalters is a good friend of mine from when I visited Istanbul ..
>
>
Maybe I know him, too?
>He spoke Greek to me and seemed quite nice so I was surprised that all this blew up . He never told me about the court case though .
>
>Anyway , this whole incident is very unfortunate.
>
>Everyone has lost .....everyone that is except the Turks.
>
>
The Turks have won nothing. The Bulgarian Exarchate has lost nothing,
but had to endure negativity and lack of graciousness unnecessarily.
The Constantinoplitan Patirarchate has lost the ability to use a Papist
title with impunity.
>Everyone played right into their hands.
>
>
Actually, the Constantinopolitan Patriarchate played into the hands of a
court system that had already determined that it had no right to
interfere in the affairs of another Patriarchate represeented on Turkish
soil. The court decision was actually appropriate, calling an
inappropriate act an inappropriate act.
Aryan 666
> veritas wrote:
>
> higher of another of the representatives). It is honorary, and the
> honorary head position is similar to the position given the host of a
> dinner who breaks the bread to start the meal, gives or causes to have
> given the grace, etc.
Or like chief justice of the supreme court, who holds no special powers that
the other supreme court justicees do not have.
++
Constantinople versus other Patriarchates:
>>It is honorary, and the honorary head position is similar to the position given the host of a dinner who breaks the bread to start the meal, gives or causes to have given the grace, etc.
>>
>>
>
>Or like chief justice of the Supreme Court, who holds no special powers that
>the other supreme court justices do not have.
>
>
>
>
>
Good point, as Supreme Justice fully expresses the ancient honor. One
thing is missing at the present-day EP, however, and that is the
possibility that the Chief Justice can be any ethnicity or heritage, as
long as he is an American and the correct age for nomination. So can,
by canon law, the EP, which fully expresses the concept Ecumenical as
not confined to one ethnicity or culture, only Orthodox and a monkpriest.
However, the problem is that today, not only are we talking about the
last in situ remnant of an empire whose first language was Latin and
second language was Greek and who current language is Turkish, we are
talking about an office that once was, truly, ecumenical and has become
ethnic. We really should have a thriving Ecumenical Patriarchate, and a
truly ecumenical one. Can this happen There need be no ecumenical
council to return the Patriarchate to this role just as there was no
ecumenical council turning it into a single ethnicity in the first place
in Ottoman times. Currently, there are two official Orthodox churches
according to Turkish law. Why not a representative fm the Bulgarian
community as EP?
In other words, can we conceive a difference between the Ecumenical
Patriarchate and the Patriarch of Constantinople.
Let's discuss that particular point of law.
cf. Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, vol. 14 for applicable canons.
Anybody wants to additionally bring in ancient epitomes and commentaries
on the canons, various language compilations or use Migne, Patrol.
Graec. vols., please identify.
Aryan 666
> Dan wrote, concerning my analogy of the role of the Patriarchate of
> Constantinople versus other Patriarchates:
>
>>>It is honorary, and the honorary head position is similar to the position
>>>given the host of a dinner who breaks the bread to start the meal, gives
>>>or causes to have given the grace, etc.
>>
>>Or like chief justice of the Supreme Court, who holds no special powers
>>that the other supreme court justices do not have.
> Good point, as Supreme Justice fully expresses the ancient honor. One
> thing is missing at the present-day EP, however, and that is the
> possibility that the Chief Justice can be any ethnicity or heritage, as
> long as he is an American and the correct age for nomination.
Turkish law does not allow that ... the EP is forced to be a Turkish
citizen. However, if the EP truly had vision, he would start seeing his
role as the protector of all Orthodoxy instead of being a de facto rubber
stamp for the interests of the Gayreeks and their allies. That said, there
are Christians other than Greeks who live in Turkey, including some
relatives of mine.
Any forward-thinking, visionary person who was tryle worthy of such a large
role would be able to take off the Gayreek blinders and start making
decisions based in what is right and which accomodations have been made for
others. For example, both Kiev and Ohrid were independent Churches at
different times and both have a legitimate basis for being restored to what
they once were. In fact, the Macedonian and Ukrainian situations are very
similar as neither trust outside interlopers. Look no further than the
DEVIL TRAITOR HACK GAYREEK/SERB STOOGE Jovan in Macedonia who has a flock
of, what, 50 people?
If Macedonians don't want to have a Gayreek or Serb overlord and wouldn't
trust them anyway, who is the EP or anybody else to say they have to have
one ..... especially when most other churches are national?
Again ....... it goes back to what your saying. To be a true EP means you
have to EARN the title. That means your actions have to be worthy of one
and you have to act like one. Thus far, Bastard Bart hasn't proven himself
to be anything other than a STOOGE for Gayreek and Serb interests.