Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation
WolfWolf
by John Shea
ISBN: 0786402288
Editorial Reviews
From Library Journal
In this unique book, we get the undiluted story of the Balkans in general and
Macedonia in particular. Commenting on the tension between Greece and the new nation
of Macedonia that has arisen out of the breakup of the former Yugoslavia, Shea (Univ.
of Newcastle, New South Wales, Australia) marvels at the Byzantine political games, is
amazed at the lack of critical thinking skills, and reveals the truth (the whole truth
and nothing but the truth). Shea selects the most significant historical points and
analyzes them very carefully, commiserating not only with the Macedonians but also
with the Greeks as he tries to point out the absurdities that are held together by
pseudopolitical, historical, and religious values. He is concerned that Macedonia
might become the scapegoat of Albania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, and Greece. His
comprehensive and objective account is recommended for academic collections.?John
Xanthopoulos, Art Inst. of Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Copyright 1997 Reed Business Information, Inc.
Library Journal
"unique...selects the most significant historical points and analyzes them
carefully.... His comprehensive and objective account is recommended"
ERIC
A few years ago, when I had just started to subscribe to this forum, someone
had also reported on and quoted from this book by Shea and I was naive
enough to acquire a library copy.
It turns out that this 'John Shea' is simply another slav Macedonist
propagandizer. This learned book is full of the same shite that we
constanly see and read in this newsgroup that is presented by the likes of
you and Ilinden and by absent types like Mangovski. If memory serves, it
contained no footnotes nor any type of reputable bibliography. It is pure
and unadulterated propaganda published in hard cover.
An example of the quality and wealth of knowledge that Shea spews forth:
"In the case of the Macedonians, the Slavs integrated with the ancient
Macedonians and their ethnicity became dominant. The existing Macedonians
transmitted to them some of their own customs, including the Christian
faith, culture, and name of their homeland, Macedonia."
Talk about slooooow transmission of culture and faith. It only took these
'integrating' slavs only 300 or so years to become Christian and literate.
The book is full of such garbage.
Thanks for the referral, no name.
Always a pleasure
Eric
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:bj8osi$5um$6...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
WolfWolf
"ERIC" <fit...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:5QS5b.95001$la.22...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> Hey there no name
Hi, No Brain,
> A few years ago, when I had just started to subscribe to this forum, someone
> had also reported on and quoted from this book by Shea and I was naive
> enough to acquire a library copy.
Well done!
> It turns out that this 'John Shea' is simply another slav Macedonist
> propagandizer.
Who said that?
Are you sure that we mean the same book?
Or did you get a plagiarism by a pseudo-Macedonian with Greek nationalist
background?!?
Below you can find another comment about this valuable book, which shows that it is an
authentic goldmine for discovering the truth amongst all the falsehood which is out
there.
"The greatest falsification of history is finally demystified. By reading this book,
everybody can learn truth about glorious history of Macedonians and painfull aspects
of their denial by Athens. Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks-it is adoption of
certain Greek customs that was cherished by Hellenophilic historians as prove of their
Greek belonging, but that is just as logical as saying that James Joyce was Greek
because he is author of book named "Ullisius". Here, all important aspects of
Macedonian History are blended into coherent and extremely well documentated
essay-this book will leave speachless anybody who dares to falsify Macedonian history
with its power of arguments."
> "In the case of the Macedonians, the Slavs integrated with the ancient
> Macedonians and their ethnicity became dominant. The existing Macedonians
> transmitted to them some of their own customs, including the Christian
> faith, culture, and name of their homeland, Macedonia."
>
> Talk about slooooow transmission of culture and faith. It only took these
> 'integrating' slavs only 300 or so years to become Christian and literate.
It seems that the slavs integrated in a quite similar manner like Normans in Britain
after the Battle of Hastings.
Did you know that most of the world's languages have no historic written records? Yet
people communicated and developed high cultures, like the Inkas who didn't even know
the wheel but were at a much higher cultural level than ancient Greeks.
As for religion, Turks also didn't adopt Islam overnight.
WolfWolf
The European
Anastassios D. Retzios
be another "pen name" for Slavko Mangovskias a search shows that his
"footprint" on the Internet is about nil. My guess is that he is not the
John Shea who has written mostly theological books but I would love to get
some more information.
ADR
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:bj8osi$5um$6...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
ERIC
--
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:bj8vvo$8o5$3...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
>
> "ERIC" <fit...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:5QS5b.95001$la.22...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > Hey there no name
>
> > A few years ago, when I had just started to subscribe to this forum,
someone
> > had also reported on and quoted from this book by Shea and I was naive
> > enough to acquire a library copy.
>
> Well done!
>
> > It turns out that this 'John Shea' is simply another slav Macedonist
> > propagandizer.
>
> Who said that?
I say it, this is a 'book' achingly full of trite and falsifications. I
have read this ridiculous book and speak with certainty. It is full of the
shabbiest of lies and contains nothing of merit unless you are enjoy farce
and the ridiculous.
> Are you sure that we mean the same book?
I have read a book whose subject was that of 'Macedonia' and slav
'Macedonians' written and published in the late 1990's by a John Shea. This
person or pseudonym has no academic credentials that I could find other than
this joke of a book. Add a few characters and make it into a novel.
There's always a demand in publishing for fresh fantasy and science fiction.
This book contains all the necessary ingredients.
>
> Below you can find another comment about this valuable book, which shows
that it is an
> authentic goldmine for discovering the truth amongst all the falsehood
which is out
> there.
Posting such a quotation with so many breathtakingly assinine facts speaks
volumes on your behalf. You are indeed an asshole of the highest status.
June R Harton
> It seems that the slavs integrated in a quite similar manner like Normans
in Britain
> after the Battle of Hastings.
Stop lying, dogdog. The Macedonians were Byzantine Greeks living in the real
area
of Macedonia (northern Greece) and they fought the Slav invaders of the
Macedonia region and ultimately killed or transfered those Slavs to Asia
Minor where they were
later destroyed by the barbarous Turks when they invaded Asia Minor.
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
WolfWolf
>
>
> --
>
>
> "WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
> news:bj8vvo$8o5$3...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> >
> > "ERIC" <fit...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> > news:5QS5b.95001$la.22...@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
> > > Hey there no name
> >
> >
> > > A few years ago, when I had just started to subscribe to this forum,
> someone
> > > had also reported on and quoted from this book by Shea and I was naive
> > > enough to acquire a library copy.
> >
> > Well done!
> >
> > > It turns out that this 'John Shea' is simply another slav Macedonist
> > > propagandizer.
> >
> > Who said that?
>
> I say it
Irrelevant.
> > Are you sure that we mean the same book?
>
> I have read a book whose subject was that of 'Macedonia' and slav
> 'Macedonians' written and published in the late 1990's by a John Shea.
Check the ISBN, is it still the same?!?
The publisher McFarland & Company, Inc. is known for editing only works from reputable
authors.
And here you have Dr. Shea's academic credentials:
http://www.newcastle.edu.au/school/behav-sci/staff/shea_j2.html
> > Below you can find another comment about this valuable book, which shows
> that it is an
> > authentic goldmine for discovering the truth amongst all the falsehood
> which is out
> > there.
>
> Posting such a quotation with so many breathtakingly assinine facts speaks
> volumes on your behalf.
What are "assinine facts"?!?
Facts are described, that's true, and they are breathtaking.
We should be grateful to the author for offering us such a valuable compilation of
facts - clear, transparent and verifiable -, which are in pleasant contrast to the
plethora of fantasies which are out there.
> You are indeed an asshole of the highest status.
I think I would be missing something if you wouldn't insult me vituperously in nearly
every sentence.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
"June R Harton" <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:SyW5b.4477$3h1....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
> news:bj8vvo$8o5$3...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > It seems that the slavs integrated in a quite similar manner like Normans
> in Britain
> > after the Battle of Hastings.
>
They were not.
They were simply Macedonians.
Your silly lies & deception are not going to change that, troll.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
academic references.
Why are you guys always so lazy for searching?!?
WolfWolf
The European
"Anastassios D. Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:eJT5b.266407$cF.83629@rwcrnsc53...
ERIC
No Name
Have YOU read this book?
--
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:bjap0s$hb3$2...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
>
> > >
> > > > It turns out that this 'John Shea' is simply another slav Macedonist
> > > > propagandizer.
> > >
> > > Who said that?
> >
> > I say it
>
> Irrelevant.
>
> > > Are you sure that we mean the same book?
> >
> > I have read a book whose subject was that of 'Macedonia' and slav
> > 'Macedonians' written and published in the late 1990's by a John Shea.
>
> Check the ISBN, is it still the same?!?
Can't be bothered, I returned the 'book' to the lending institution, I think
it was inter library loaned from York University.
Again, as I recall, thgere were no footnotes and no bibliography included
in this 'work'.
> The publisher McFarland & Company, Inc. is known for editing only works
from reputable
> authors.
> And here you have Dr. Shea's academic credentials:
> http://www.newcastle.edu.au/school/behav-sci/staff/shea_j2.html
>
> > > Below you can find another comment about this valuable book, which
shows
> > that it is an
> > > authentic goldmine for discovering the truth amongst all the falsehood
> > which is out
> > > there.
> >
> > Posting such a quotation with so many breathtakingly assinine facts
speaks
> > volumes on your behalf.
>
> What are "assinine facts"?!?
Her is one
> > >" Did you know that most of the world's languages have no historic
written
> > records?"
WOW, great insight but not relevant to the topic at hand as the Makedonians
of classical times spoke, read and wrote in Greek. They were a literate
people and it is only the pitiful few 'academics' from the FTROM who try to
state otherwise.
HAVE YOU READ THIS 'BOOK', noname?
Always a pleasure
Eric
Anastassios Retzios
Gret wolfie....come on, you know that you are well out of your depth
here. But I like it when we go directly to hate. Right? Cut out all
the crap and come to the hate part.
Do your really want to discuss the Hellenicity of ancient Macedonians?
OK, then just tell us who this Shea is and why do you tend to believe
this person (I do not think that he exists) more than esteemed
historians such as Wilken, Hammond, Lane Fox, Grant, Green, Errington
and others.
And yes, stupid, many languages did not leave a written record but the
Macedonians were literate, you dummy!! They could have written
anything they wanted. Nothing stopped them of utilizing the Greek
alphabet to write "their language" very much the way the Latins and
the Etruscans did. What happened? Were the Macedonians less bright
than these peoples? In addition, both the Ptolemies and the Seleukids
erected many multilingual inscriptions. How come they did not include
"Macedonian" there? Oh, well...it would be stupid to open this
argument again, especially with you who have no classical or
historical education. I even bet that you have never read the "Shea"
book or even bothered to purchase it.
Vending your hate is what really matters to you, right??
ADR
Ilinden
The Macedonian Conflict , by Loring M. Danforth.
Ilinden
Ilinden
WolfWolf , Rechkov he is not lazy but ignoramus, and a Grkoman
Ilinden the Macedonian
Ilinden
putrid loo.
Ilinden
Anastassios Retzios
> news:bj8vvo$8o5$3...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > It seems that the slavs integrated in a quite similar manner like Normans
> in Britain
> > after the Battle of Hastings.
>
> Stop lying, dogdog. The Macedonians were Byzantine Greeks living in the real
> area
> of Macedonia (northern Greece) and they fought the Slav invaders of the
> Macedonia region and ultimately killed or transfered those Slavs to Asia
> Minor where they were
> later destroyed by the barbarous Turks when they invaded Asia Minor.
Both statements are wrong and serious pervations of history.
Wolfie's position that the Slavs intergrated into the Macedonian
society in the same manner as the Norman aristocracy in Anglosaxon
Britain is purely ridiculous. I think that he himself knows that this
statement is at least bizarre but his knowledge of history is about
nil. If he is trying to find British equivalents, the settlement of
the Angles and the Saxons in the late 5th century in Britain and the
progressive displacement of the original Britons is a much better
example. Very much as in Macedonia, the original literate and
Christian Britons was displaced by a heathen and illiterate population
that destroyed what was left of Roman Britain. Very much as in
Macedonia, the original population fought back with leaders such as
the legendary Arthur but they were eventually pushed into the western
part of the island. Very much as in Macedonia, the Anglosaxons were
progressively Christianized and achieved limited literacy.
In the case of Macedonia, things were better for the indigenous
population because they did not stand alone at the edge of Europe.
Therefore, they established an effective fortified frontier (the
Serres- Berrhoia line) and eventually reconquered the territory
without, of course, changing the ethnic lines that remained very much
as they were in the 10th century.
June's position that the Slavs of Macedonia were eventually removed
and killed is not correct either. Some, in the vicinity of
Thessaloniki, were indeed captured in a campaign led by Justinian II,
resettled in Asia Minor, rebelled and some were killed. The Isaurian
emperors eventually established a fortified frontier but despite their
efforts, beyond this frontier the Sklavinias fell under the control of
the Bulgarian state. Therefore, up to the 10th century AD, one would
expect to find a substantial Slavic population north of the Berrhoia
and Serres arc. It was during the period of the Comneni emperors when
Greek populations spread beyond this frontier to mainly urban centers
of NW Macedonia during the period of Byzantine control of this
territory. The movement continued to some degree following the
restoration of the kingdom of "Bulgarian and Vlachs" under the Asen
dynasty which was connected with the Greek aristocratic families such
as the Doukas' and the Comneni. When the territory fell within the
state of Stephan Dousan, he took special measures to safeguard the
Greek population and enhance movement of population. Many changes
occured during the period of Ottoman rule that we do not need to
expand extensively here, but in summary, Slav settlements could be
found within the boundaries of classical Macedonia after their
original descent and that the campaigns of Justinian II removed only a
minority of this population.
ADR
WolfWolf
>
>
> No Name
Hi, No Brain
> Have YOU read this book?
Which one? The one which I described, or the obviously fake one which you bought?
> "WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
> news:bjap0s$hb3$2...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> >
> > > >
> > > > > It turns out that this 'John Shea' is simply another slav Macedonist
> > > > > propagandizer.
> > > >
> > > > Who said that?
> > >
> > > I say it
> >
> > Irrelevant.
> >
> > > > Are you sure that we mean the same book?
> > >
> > > I have read a book whose subject was that of 'Macedonia' and slav
> > > 'Macedonians' written and published in the late 1990's by a John Shea.
> >
> > Check the ISBN, is it still the same?!?
> Can't be bothered, I returned the 'book' to the lending institution, I think
> it was inter library loaned from York University.
Didn't you say that you *bought* it, Eric Choleric?
Now you say that it was loaned???
What comes next??
Will you say that you've actually never seen it??
With such a profile of lies, Eric Choleric, how can you be receptive for the blessings
of truth distilled by this most valuable book???
> Again, as I recall
You recall wrong, Eric Choleric. Go again to the lending institution. Or better buy
it.
Do it now, Eric Choleric, before it's too late.
It could be your last salvation from eternal denial.
> thgere were no footnotes and no bibliography included
> in this 'work'.
Hmmm ... did you contact the author? We gave youo his address.
Was it a printing error that the bibliography was missing?
Or did another reader tear out the pages?
We told you - it's very valuable material, so the temptation is great.
>
> > The publisher McFarland & Company, Inc. is known for editing only works
> from reputable
> > authors.
> > And here you have Dr. Shea's academic credentials:
> > http://www.newcastle.edu.au/school/behav-sci/staff/shea_j2.html
> >
> > > > Below you can find another comment about this valuable book, which
> shows
> > > that it is an
> > > > authentic goldmine for discovering the truth amongst all the falsehood
> > > which is out
> > > > there.
> > >
> > > Posting such a quotation with so many breathtakingly assinine facts
> speaks
> > > volumes on your behalf.
> >
> > What are "assinine facts"?!?
>
> Her is one
> > > >" Did you know that most of the world's languages have no historic
> written
> > > records?"
> WOW, great insight but not relevant to the topic at hand
You obviously did not only read the book, Eric Choleric, you also haven't read the
topic.
Sit down, you've lost!
With amusement
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
Each time I open Eric Choleric's postings, the stench comes out of the monitor ...
WolfWolf
The European
"Ilinden" <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3F594C8B...@sympatico.ca...
ERIC
--
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:bjboum$7r2$2...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
>
> > No Name
>
> > Have YOU read this book?
>
> Which one? The one which I described, or the obviously fake one which you
bought?
Have you read anything written by a John Shea?
>
> > "WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
> > news:bjap0s$hb3$2...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > It turns out that this 'John Shea' is simply another slav
Macedonist
> > > > > > propagandizer.
> > > > >
> > > > > Who said that?
> > > >
> > > > I say it
> > >
> > > Irrelevant.
> > >
> > > > > Are you sure that we mean the same book?
> > > >
> > > > I have read a book whose subject was that of 'Macedonia' and slav
> > > > 'Macedonians' written and published in the late 1990's by a John
Shea.
> > >
> > > Check the ISBN, is it still the same?!?
> > Can't be bothered, I returned the 'book' to the lending institution, I
think
> > it was inter library loaned from York University.
>
> Didn't you say that you *bought* it, Eric Choleric?
No, I did not say that I bought the book. What I did write is as follows
:...." A few years ago, when I had just started to subscribe to this forum,
someone had also reported on and quoted from this book by Shea and I was
naive
enough to acquire a library copy."
Acquire a library copy does NOT mean to purchase, noname.
> Now you say that it was loaned???
> What comes next??
> Will you say that you've actually never seen it??
Answer the question, have you read this 'book' writtten by John Shea?
June R Harton
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.03090...@posting.google.com...
> Both statements are wrong and serious pervations of history.
> and killed is not correct either. Some, in the vicinity of
> Thessaloniki, were indeed captured in a campaign led by Justinian II,
> resettled in Asia Minor, rebelled and some were killed. The Isaurian
> emperors eventually established a fortified frontier but despite their
> efforts, beyond this frontier the Sklavinias fell under the control of
> the Bulgarian state. Therefore, up to
What are those words, foolish one?
> the 10th century AD, one would
> expect to find a substantial Slavic population north of the Berrhoia
> and Serres arc. It was during the period of the Comneni emperors when
> Greek populations spread beyond this frontier to mainly urban centers
> of NW Macedonia during the period of Byzantine control of this
> territory. The movement continued to some degree following the
> restoration of the kingdom of "Bulgarian and Vlachs" under the Asen
> dynasty which was connected with the Greek aristocratic families such
> as the Doukas' and the Comneni. When the territory fell within the
> state of Stephan Dousan, he took special measures to safeguard the
> Greek population and enhance movement of population.
"June's position that the Slavs of Macedonia were eventually removed
and killed is not correct either."
So, folks, he exposes his own silliness again.
>Many changes
> occured during the period of Ottoman rule that we do not need to
> expand extensively here, but in summary, Slav settlements could be
> found within the boundaries of classical Macedonia after their
> original descent and that the campaigns of Justinian II removed only a
> minority of this population.
> ADR
Duh. Killed and removed and those few remaining from those original invaders
in the real area of Macedonia had been assimilated.....get it now, slow one?
bt
You cant be Greek and Macedonian, this is ridiculous.
There is a Part of Macedonia in Greece since 1914.
No one is interested in Greek Propaganda rubbish.
June R Harton <JUNEH...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:SyW5b.4477$3h1....@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...
>
George S. Tsapanos
>Greeks are Greek and only Greek, Macedonians are only Macedonian.
>You cant be Greek and Macedonian, this is ridiculous.
>There is a Part of Macedonia in Greece since 1914.
>No one is interested in Greek Propaganda rubbish.>
abre bito
How come then the Hellenic Nation was named as the Nation of the Makedonians?
The coins you find around Voutelion, what kind of letters they have on them?
Or the inscriptions?
Do they have the same letters as the ones you are using in SKOPIA, or are
different?
Have you ever visit Heraklea Lyngestis, just outside Voutelion?
Tell us all about it, what the statues are telling us ?
What about the mosaics?
Aren't they the same like in DION?
They should, Makedonians were living in DION, and Makedonians were living in
Heraklea Lyngestis, and at both cities they were writing and speaking in
Hellenic, not in that SLAV language of yours.
Did you start learning the Albanian language?
Regards to all ..................L.
"Vlachs, The Autochthonous
Of the Hellenic Peninsula".
Ilinden
Phoenician alphabet? The Ftcogians or Turkogreki they took the alphabet from the
Hellenes.
Ilinden
Ilinden
WolfWolf , even Erics brain stinks, like his putrid mouth.
June R Harton
"bt" <bi...@bitola.i-p.com> wrote in message
news:3f59...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> Greeks are Greek and only Greek, Macedonians are only Macedonian.
> You cant be Greek and Macedonian, this is ridiculous.
> There is a Part of Macedonia in Greece since 1914.
> No one is interested in Greek Propaganda rubbish.
LOL
Bulgar, you are delusional.
You only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority like
yourself are simply West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia'
anything:
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
And here:
Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......
http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html
Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).
And here:
For fair use only.
http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm
" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...
...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.
... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...
Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.
The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"
Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV
This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,
and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "
And here:
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
And finally here
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm
http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid
George S. Tsapanos
>Tsapan, what kind of letters the Hellenes wrote before they adopted
the>Phoenician alphabet? The Ftcogians or Turkogreki they took the alphabet
from>the>Hellenes.
>Ilinden>
SKOPIAN
Where from the Phoenicians received their alphabet?
WolfWolf
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.03090...@posting.google.com...
news:<bj8vvo$8o5$3...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...
>
> Gret wolfie....come on, you know that you are well out of your depth
> here. But I like it when we go directly to hate. Right? Cut out all
> the crap and come to the hate part.
Tassos, with my best efforts - I cannot develop any hate.
Could you explain first why everybody who disagrees with you shows "hate"???
>
> Do your really want to discuss the Hellenicity of ancient Macedonians?
Yes.
> OK, then just tell us who this Shea is and why do you tend to believe
> this person (I do not think that he exists)
Oh, Tassos.
You doubt about Dr Shea's existence - only because you're too lazy to search by
yourself or to read the message which I posted on 5 September 2003
http://www.newcastle.edu.au/school/behav-sci/staff/shea_j2.html
If I put similar doubts on your statements you start telling me that I am stupid.
Now, shall I tell you the same?!?
> And yes, stupid, many languages did not leave a written record but the
> Macedonians were literate, you dummy!!
Irrelevant.
Many other cultures were highly developed and did not leave anything written, like the
Inkas, or at least it hasn't been found.
Also, consider that we know written documents of the Basques only from 200 years ago
or so, but you cannot seriously doubt that their language is one of the oldest of the
continent.
> They could have written
> anything they wanted. Nothing stopped them of utilizing the Greek
> alphabet to write "their language" very much the way the Latins and
> the Etruscans did. What happened? Were the Macedonians less bright
> than these peoples? In addition, both the Ptolemies and the Seleukids
> erected many multilingual inscriptions. How come they did not include
> "Macedonian" there?
There are only a certain number of preserved words, and from the current knowledge the
structure of the ancient Macedonian can not be fully synthesised. Most of the ancient
Macedonian words are different to the ancient Greek language words, however there are
a few that are similar. For the words from the ancient Macedonian language that are
similar to the ancient Greek language words are believed to be taken on from Greek.
One needs to bear in mind that almost all the preserved ancient Macedonian words
reached modern age through their Greek transcript which makes it more difficult to
identify their true meaning.
Despite all this, it is very interesting to note that many of the authentic ancient
Macedonian words, according to their etymology and pronunciation, have a striking
resemblance to the appropriate words used in the modern Macedonian language.
For instance, the word "tshelniku" which translated in English means foremost is a
very interesting case. The British historian Hammond mentioned its etymology and said
that the word "tshelniku" in the ancient Macedonian language had a meaning of "leader
of a group". Hammond says that this word was translated into Greek only in the 14th
century as "phylarchos".
An abundance of water is described with the word "vodi" in contemporary Macedonian
language. The corresponding ancient Macedonian word for this is the word "vedy". The
Greek archaeologist Aliki Stuyanaki in the periodical "Edesaika Hronika" (Edessa,
may-august, 1972) advised that the Macedonian city of Voden, to which the Greeks gave
the name "Edessa", was originally a Phrygian city and its old name was Vedy which
means abundance of water
Besides, there is not even a single inscription in Greek on the territory of Macedonia
to be dated from and before the 5th century BC, which matches with the period prior to
the partial adoption of the Greek culture in Macedonia. The fact that many of the
inscriptions in Greek found (from a later date though) contain many grammatical
errors, is by itself a proof in support of the fact that ancient Greek was a foreign
language to the Macedonians.
> Oh, well...it would be stupid to open this
> argument again, especially with you who have no classical or
> historical education.
What a moronic statement, Tassos!!
> I even bet that you have never read the "Shea"
> book or even bothered to purchase it.
>
> Vending your hate is what really matters to you, right??
Tassos, given your frequent and undeserved hostilities towards everything which comes
from beyond Greece's borders, and your ad-personam attacks of non-Greeks, it is
abundantly clear who is peddling hate here.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
>
> > > >
> > > > Check the ISBN, is it still the same?!?
> > > Can't be bothered, I returned the 'book' to the lending institution, I
> think
> > > it was inter library loaned from York University.
> >
> > Didn't you say that you *bought* it, Eric Choleric?
>
> No, I did not say that I bought the book. What I did write is as follows
> :...." A few years ago, when I had just started to subscribe to this forum,
> someone had also reported on and quoted from this book by Shea and I was
> naive
> enough to acquire a library copy."
>
> Acquire a library copy does NOT mean to purchase, noname.
Acquire means to get ownership, No Brain!!
>
> > Now you say that it was loaned???
> > What comes next??
> > Will you say that you've actually never seen it??
>
> Answer the question, have you read this 'book' writtten by John Shea?
Still we don't know if it's the same ...
Did you check the ISBN, YES or NO?!?
Why are you so reluctant to give clear answers to simple questions?!?
WolfWolf
The European
Anastassios D. Retzios
What in his background has even a remote connection with history????
ADR
------------------------------------------
Dr John Shea
Campus: Callaghan
Room: W254
Phone: +61 (2) 492 15956
Fax: +61 (2) 492 16980
Email: John...@newcastle.edu.au
Web: Teaching Resources
My PhD work at the University of Queensland was in the area of
attachment behaviour in children. Following four years as a tutor at the
University of Queensland, I went to the University of Papua New Guinea for
seven years. Here I studied a variety of issues of concern to such a
developing country, in particular questions about cognitive development and
the measurement of cognitive skills.
I joined the University of Newcastle in 1979 and continued my
interests in applied areas of psychology, teaching and researching in the
areas of child development, human sexuality, and health. My applied
interests were reflected also in my work as a practising psychologist during
this period. For more than 25 years now I have worked as a consulting
psychologist, and am a fellow and immediate past president of the Australian
College of Practising Consulting Psychologists (ACPCP). Ongoing involvement
with the practice of psychology includes work with Psychology Private
Australia, the peak body of private practising psychologists in Australia.
Presently my major research work focuses on two quite specific themes:
personality factors associated with the talent for hypnosis and the use of
support groups for cancer patients. While the interest in hypnosis is
basically theoretical, there is an obvious applied value in such research.
The interest in cancer patients extends over the past 15 years, and has
emerged out of an interest in psychoimmunology. This interest has been
reflected also in the creation of a support group program for cancer
patients run in assistance with other staff and students from the Department
of Psychology, and with the support of the NSW Cancer Council. During 1997 a
randomised control trial examining the psychological effects of support
groups for cancer patients was conducted at the Newcastle Mater
Misericordiae Hospital in Newcastle. The data from that program are
presently being analysed.
Strong research links have been established with Semmelveis Medical
University in Budapest, Hungary, which will result in another randomised
control study being conducted in Budapest during 1998 and 1999. The
intervention procedures used in the Hungarian study will be essentially the
same as those developed in Newcastle, as will the other aspects of the
experimental program. It is hoped that results from the two programs will
lead to a greater awareness of the human and economic value of attending to
the psychological needs of patients with cancer.
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:bjap0s$hb3$2...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
Anastassios D. Retzios
I have not heard such palaver anywhere!!!! Are you serious??? Are these
specific gems that you got from the Shea book?
Let me know if you are serious...God, I had the best laugh of my life.
ADR
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:bjfsnb$cd9$5...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
Dorian West
ANYTHING REMOTLEY LIKE GREECE. GET USE TO IT LIKE THE PIGS IN THE STY,
THAT'S ALL YOU'VE GOT!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
EUROPE FOR EUROPEANS!
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:bjfsnb$cd9$5...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
Neveryon
> My god!!
>
> I have not heard such palaver anywhere!!!! Are you serious??? Are these
> specific gems that you got from the Shea book?
>
> Let me know if you are serious...God, I had the best laugh of my life.
>
> ADR
---------------------------------------
No Tassos, these gems come directly from Dr. Nade Proeva, professor of
archaeology at the SS Cyril & Methody University up in Skopjie - as
communicated to the English speaking world by Dr.Aleksandar Donski, no
less. All that drivel, plus a lot more are included in his web page.
Dr. Nade Proeva is one of the prime examples currently demonstrating why
there will be no quick solution to that naming problem we have with
(FYRO)Macedonia.
As it seems, her main job up there is to cook up some “scientific”
glazing for the hard-core Makedonist lunacies, gems that are directly
transferred to the (FYRO)Macedonian educational system. She was the one
that managed to gather together the notorious 500+ words from this
elusive ancient Macedonian language, words that "prove beyond any
reasonable doubt" that the aforementioned lingo was totally different
from ancient Greek and, of course, directly linked to present day
Makedonski (...)
Furthermore, she was the author of some letters directed to president
Bush and co., protesting vehemently about the infamous “suggestion” of
ICG a couple of years back. If you remember, the ICG was suggesting then
a “solution” that was giving our esteemed neighbors everything they were
asking for (full rights over the name, etc.) with the small exception
that they should accept the obvious fact of their Slavic origin - a
thing that Grigorov already had done years ago in any case. Even that
was not good enough for Mrs. Proeva, that illustrious direct descendant
of Alexander and Cleopatra.
Neveryon (greetings to all)
bt
George S. Tsapanos <lyn...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030906104304...@mb-m24.aol.com...
If you don't already know, Skopje is the capital of the Republic of
Macedonia,
as for Heraklea, yes, that is in Bitola, Republic of Macedonia and no, I
have
no intention in learning Albanian, thank you very much.
Yannis the Makedonian
......................................................
> > Heraklea Lyngestis, and at both cities they were writing and speaking
in
> > Hellenic, not in that SLAV language of yours.
> > Did you start learning the Albanian language?
>
> If you don't already know, Skopje is the capital of the Republic of
> Macedonia,
> as for Heraklea, yes, that is in Bitola, Republic of Macedonia and no, I
> have
> no intention in learning Albanian, thank you very much.
Skopje is now capital of FYROPseudoMacedonia.
Once it was Dardanian capital.
Nothing Macedonian is in FYROPM, except SlavoSkopians' attempt to slavicize
Macedonia and Macedonians that were always Greeks.
Heraclea or Bitola ??
Kajlar or Ptolemais ??
Yannis
Macedona, Greece
WolfWolf
"Dorian West" <west...@optusnet.com> wrote in mesage
news:3f5c2b87$0$6524$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> EUROPE FOR EUROPEANS!
Good statement, Dorian SandNigger!!!
When will you start to leave?!?
Anastassios Retzios
"Neveryon" <neve...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3F5C32CD...@hotmail.com...
> Anastassios D. Retzios wrote:
>
> > My god!!
> >
> > I have not heard such palaver anywhere!!!! Are you serious??? Are
these
> > specific gems that you got from the Shea book?
> >
> > Let me know if you are serious...God, I had the best laugh of my life.
> >
> > ADR
>
> ---------------------------------------
>
> No Tassos, these gems come directly from Dr. Nade Proeva, professor of
> archaeology at the SS Cyril & Methody University up in Skopjie - as
> communicated to the English speaking world by Dr.Aleksandar Donski, no
> less. All that drivel, plus a lot more are included in his web page.
> Dr. Nade Proeva is one of the prime examples currently demonstrating why
> there will be no quick solution to that naming problem we have with
> (FYRO)Macedonia.
>
> As it seems, her main job up there is to cook up some “scientific”
> glazing for the hard-core Makedonist lunacies, gems that are directly
> transferred to the (FYRO)Macedonian educational system. She was the one
> that managed to gather together the notorious 500+ words from this
> elusive ancient Macedonian language, words that "prove beyond any
> reasonable doubt" that the aforementioned lingo was totally different
> from ancient Greek and, of course, directly linked to present day
> Makedonski (...)
This is the stuff of comedy. I read the arguments of this site and I am
posting the link here for anybody looking for light entertainment
http://www.mymacedonia.net/ancient/simmilarites.htm
There is hardly a doubt that this is not even science, not even
pseudoscience but pure and unadulterated crockery. I think that it is only
meant to deceive "believers" such as our friend Wolfie, Ilinden, Galina and
the rest.
> Furthermore, she was the author of some letters directed to president
> Bush and co., protesting vehemently about the infamous “suggestion” of
> ICG a couple of years back. If you remember, the ICG was suggesting then
> a “solution” that was giving our esteemed neighbors everything they were
> asking for (full rights over the name, etc.) with the small exception
> that they should accept the obvious fact of their Slavic origin - a
> thing that Grigorov already had done years ago in any case. Even that
> was not good enough for Mrs. Proeva, that illustrious direct descendant
> of Alexander and Cleopatra.
>
> Neveryon (greetings to all)
Oh, well, how does anybody deal with idiots like these....Poorly, I think
Thanks
Anastassios
ERIC
research is apparent from these scholars.
Odd that their exhaustive linguistic investigations failed to note the
similarity between the place name Skopje and the work 'skoupidia'.
Regards
Eric
--
"Anastassios Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dN67b.394905$Ho3.59562@sccrnsc03...
Anastassios Retzios
> Tassos, look at my answer in another thread where I have posted a link to Dr. Shea's
> academic references.
> Why are you guys always so lazy for searching?!?
>
> WolfWolf
> The European
I posted above the academic credentials of John Shea. He is a shrink
for crying out loud. He has no academic training, no credentials and
no other involvement that I can think of in either history or
archaelogy and nothing in his own write-up or his training appears to
even remotely connected to history or the history of Macedonia. My
guess is that Sheat "lented" his name to the real author of that book.
Anyway, the question still remains as to why you seem so convinced
about the history of Macedonia by a leaflet written by a psychologist
and not by a whole number of prominent western historians. Care to
elucidate?
ADR
WolfWolf
Or are you again "smelling hate"?!?
WolfWolf
The European
"Anastassios D. Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:kJT6b.389312$uu5.72772@sccrnsc04...
WolfWolf
You may say whatever you want, but regardless of the authors and your disagreement
with them there are some facts on the table which are evident while others raise
questions, and they will not disappear so easily.
WolfWolf
The European
"Anastassios Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dN67b.394905$Ho3.59562@sccrnsc03...
WolfWolf
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.03090...@posting.google.com...
news:<bjap8a$hr8$7...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...
> > Tassos, look at my answer in another thread where I have posted a link to Dr.
Shea's
> > academic references.
> > Why are you guys always so lazy for searching?!?
> >
> > WolfWolf
> > The European
>
> I posted above the academic credentials of John Shea. He is a shrink
> for crying out loud. He has no academic training, no credentials and
> no other involvement that I can think of in either history or
> archaelogy and nothing in his own write-up or his training appears to
> even remotely connected to history or the history of Macedonia. My
> guess is that Sheat "lented" his name to the real author of that book.
This is a grave accusation without any proof.
Why don't you write him and ask him?!?
>
> Anyway, the question still remains as to why you seem so convinced
> about the history of Macedonia by a leaflet written by a psychologist
> and not by a whole number of prominent western historians. Care to
> elucidate?
I have answered this in another posting.
WolfWolf
The European
Anastassios D. Retzios
> I had a quick look at the 'mymacedonia' site. Some deep intellectual
> research is apparent from these scholars.
> Odd that their exhaustive linguistic investigations failed to note the
> similarity between the place name Skopje and the work 'skoupidia'.
>
> Regards
> Eric
Eric
I had a good laugh with this one
ADR
Anastassios D. Retzios
>
> "Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:4f2b5361.03090...@posting.google.com...
> > "WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
> news:<bjap8a$hr8$7...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...
> > > Tassos, look at my answer in another thread where I have posted a link
to Dr.
> Shea's
> > > academic references.
> > > Why are you guys always so lazy for searching?!?
> > >
> > > WolfWolf
> > > The European
> >
> > I posted above the academic credentials of John Shea. He is a shrink
> > for crying out loud. He has no academic training, no credentials and
> > no other involvement that I can think of in either history or
> > archaelogy and nothing in his own write-up or his training appears to
> > even remotely connected to history or the history of Macedonia. My
> > guess is that Sheat "lented" his name to the real author of that book.
>
> This is a grave accusation without any proof.
> Why don't you write him and ask him?!?
Now, how likely is he to agree with me on this? Not much I would say as he
is utilizing this as part of his limited publication listing
> > Anyway, the question still remains as to why you seem so convinced
> > about the history of Macedonia by a leaflet written by a psychologist
> > and not by a whole number of prominent western historians. Care to
> > elucidate?
>
> I have answered this in another posting.
>
What a whopper!!! No you have not, my man, you have not. Give it another
shot, anyway. I am looking forward to it.
ADR
WolfWolf
"Anastassios D. Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mpe7b.398493$o%2.179306@sccrnsc02...
>
> "WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
> news:bjjili$snp$8...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
> >
> > "Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:4f2b5361.03090...@posting.google.com...
> > > "WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
> > news:<bjap8a$hr8$7...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...
> > > > Tassos, look at my answer in another thread where I have posted a link
> to Dr.
> > Shea's
> > > > academic references.
> > > > Why are you guys always so lazy for searching?!?
> > > >
> > > > WolfWolf
> > > > The European
> > >
> > > I posted above the academic credentials of John Shea. He is a shrink
> > > for crying out loud. He has no academic training, no credentials and
> > > no other involvement that I can think of in either history or
> > > archaelogy and nothing in his own write-up or his training appears to
> > > even remotely connected to history or the history of Macedonia. My
> > > guess is that Sheat "lented" his name to the real author of that book.
> >
> > This is a grave accusation without any proof.
> > Why don't you write him and ask him?!?
>
> Now, how likely is he to agree with me on this? Not much I would say as he
> is utilizing this as part of his limited publication listing
So you are basing your argument on assumptions, not on objectively verifiable facts.
We know your assumptions, Tassos ...
>
> > > Anyway, the question still remains as to why you seem so convinced
> > > about the history of Macedonia by a leaflet written by a psychologist
> > > and not by a whole number of prominent western historians. Care to
> > > elucidate?
> >
> > I have answered this in another posting.
> >
> What a whopper!!! No you have not, my man, you have not. Give it another
> shot, anyway. I am looking forward to it.
We have some irrefutable facts on the table. As long as you don't enlighten us with
clear evidence that each single of them and all of them in whole are not what their
characteristics show us, they remain a valid testimony for the distinct ancient
Macedonian language.
WolfWolf
The European
Neveryon
> Well done, Tassos, character assassination helps you to avoid
> in-depth discussion.
>
> You may say whatever you want, but regardless of the authors and
> your disagreement with them there are some facts on the table which
> are evident while others raise questions, and they will not
> disappear so easily.
>
> WolfWolf The European
>
> "Anastassios Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:dN67b.394905$Ho3.59562@sccrnsc03...
>
>
>> "Neveryon" <neve...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3F5C32CD...@hotmail.com...
>>
<snip>
-------------------------------------
Dear WolfWolf.
I'm afraid you are throwing your money on the wrong horse here. It's
your money of course, and I have the inkling that in any case you could
do no different, but this does not change the fact that these "theories"
represent the most absurd, hilarious and lunatic pseudo-scientific
ramblings ever written on the subject.
Let's see a sample of what these famous "professors" have produced in
terms of proof that the modern "Macedonians" are the honest to goodness,
the ones and only true ascendants of their notorious ancient namesakes:
They have found several words, names, etc, that they maintain are
exclusive to the illusory Macedonian language and are still used in
modern Makedonski. Let's have a look [excerpts in brackets as taken from
Similarities Between Ancient Macedonian and Today's Macedonian Culture
- (Linguistics and Onomastics) - Author: Prof. Aleksandar Donski]
[...Glaukia(s). Could this name be derived from the noun "glava" (a
head)? In 19th century Macedonia one finds the male name Glavko)...]
But it is elementary, dear Watson! We throw to the wastebasket the
obvious (Glaukos/Glavkos-i-o: the bluish coloured) and start talking
about "Glava"! (Their glavas are obviously empty I might add.) By the
way, have they informed the ex-president of Cyprus, Mr. Glavkos Clerides
that his name is of "Macedonian" origin? It would be interesting to hear
his reactions.
[...Kopria. This name has possible connections to the noun "kopra" (a
dill). It is a well-known practice to derive personal names from those
of the plant world. In 16th century Macedonia one finds the female name
Kopra. ]
Have they ever heard about the "Kopros tou Avgeiou"? It was one of the
most ...odorous of the Hercules' feats.
[...Myrcin(us). Name of a king of an ancient Macedonian tribe Edoni,
mentioned by Herodotus. If we remove the Greek "us", we get the name
Myrcin (Mirkin). To the present day in the Macedonian language there is
the female name "Mirka" (derived from the noun "mir", which means
peace), while "Mirkin" is an adjective which means "The one who belongs
to Mirka". Among the Macedonians, right up to the 20th century, men
frequently received names derived from their mother's name (Kanin son of
Kana; Mirkin son of Mirka and etc.). Could that be the case with this
name? The names Mirkan, Mirin and so on are present in todays'
Macedonian onomasticon. ]
Could it be that they never heard - or chose to ignore - the Greek
"Myrsini" - the myrtle? "Mir", my ass! Why not "Urchin"? Sounds closer
to me.
[...Mama. This is identical to the present day Macedonian noun "mama",
which in any case, exists in other languages. In 15th century Macedonia
one finds the female name Mamica (deminutive for Mama). ]
As far as I know, this noun is shared with identical meaning between
some 200 known languages around the world. Indeed, you can be sure that
when a child cries "mama!" at some park, his/her cry will nowhere go
unheeded. Yes, it is proof of common linguistic origins, but at a far
deeper level. If you are to search for its inventors, you should be
prepared to go very far back in time, to the dawn of the humankind and
its first attempts to communicate verbally.
Going a bit further, I have it from secure sources that a Chinese, a
Somali, a Canadian, a Belgian and an Australian when they have the
misfortune to, say, step on a nail will all cry out "Ahhh!" or "Ohhh!".
Does that prove a linguistic connection between their particular
languages and their genes, apart from demonstrating the fact that we are
all humans? Why the good professors do not include these exclamations in
their list as well? I'm sure that they remained identical through time.
Perhaps in that way they can claim all of humanity as "theirs". (Well,
in a way it is, but only in a way they obviously find politically
unsuitable. What can I say? Tough luck guys!)
[...Pittak(os). Could this be a variant of the previous name? The noun
"pitach" exists in the present day Macedonian language, with the
meaning, "one who begs". The names Pito and Pitako are present in
todays' Macedonian onomasticon. ]
If we accept the "Pre-Slavic" root of that name, maybe then the authors
would be so kind to explain to us how come and we have records of
another Pittakos, in Mytilene this time? (650-570BC, one of the seven
"wise men" of the Greek tradition). Did the "Pre-Slav Macedonians" have
reached so far? If they did, they must have invented the world's first
stealth techniques, because there is no record of such an invasion. How
marvelous! Hey guys, why don't you claim the whole of Greece and get it
over with? Why stop at Olympus? The "one who begs" indeed! What a gem of
a "scientific" study! Why not "pistachio"? It sounds similar enough to
me! Or maybe "Pentecost"? Is it getting ridiculous enough?
[...Temen(os). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian
adjective "temen" (dark). ]
Dark! Really! And what about "temenos" that is used even today in Greek?
(temen-os, eos, to, Arc. nom. and acc. sg. temenes IG5(2).432.31 ,42
(Megalop., ii B.C.); Aeol. gen. sg. temeneos Alc.152 : ( [temno] ):--a
piece of land cut off and assigned as an official domain, a piece of
land marked off from common uses and dedicated to a god, precinct,
temple - Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon)
[...Silen(us). Name of a forest demon in Brygian mythology. The root of
this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "silen" (that
which has spiritual or physical strength). In middle age Macedonia one
finds the names: Silan, Silano and Silane. ]
Brygian? Well, I don't know about the Brygians (or Phrygians, a people
of nebulous origin that resided in western Asia Minor up to the 7th
century BC, when their kingdom was destroyed by the Assyrians). They
maybe had some myths about "Silenus", and maybe not. But why ignore the
obvious? (Seilenos, Silenus, companion of Bacchus, Hdt.; father of the
Satyrs - Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon.)
It is really funny the lengths of absurdity these good "scientists" are
prepared to go into, in order to avoid anything pointing to a connection
of "their" Macedonians with the accursed Greeks.
As a matter of fact, it would be interesting to know where these words
were "found", in what context they were written, plus of course what
script was used in their "primary sources" (I would bet that they were
in Greek, but you never know: maybe these guys up there discovered at
long last the first written records of ancient Macedonian!). You see,
such minor details are not clarified in the writings of the good
professor Donski. As these poor words were transcribed and presented in
English, we can only guess at the way they were originally written.
(And to think that people are being paid out of poor buggers' tax money,
and they are getting university "degrees" and positions for writing such
utter crap!)
Of course, the whole book does not exhaust itself on dealing with these
words. There are other gems of scientific research as well. Let's take a
look at a sample:
[...there are a certain number of arguments and strong indications in
support of the existence of (at least partial) ethno-cultural links
between the ancient Macedonians and Veneti". ]
Now, as far as I know, the Veneti were an obscure people of (possible)
Illyrian origin who eventually settled the area of Venetia-Julia in
Italy. There are some 300 words of their language saved from funerary
and votive inscriptions from the 5th to the 1st century BC, and these
are written using the Latin or the Etruscan alphabet. I would much
appreciate the good professors to explain what are these "arguments and
strong indications" that point to this ethno-cultural link (and I don't
mean that both these ancient people liked their food cooked or that they
were both fond of the other sex - minus of course the usual percentage
of "others"). Also, what on earth have modern Macedonians to do with
both the Veneti and the ancient Macedonians?
It may be a fad these days, but it seems that everybody around is
claiming some obscure, long lost people as their very own progenitors.
I' sorry to say guys, but for claiming the Veneti as your own, you have
to fight it out with the ... Slovenians as well: there is a book going
around by Jozko Savli, Matej Bor & Ivan Tomazic, titled "Veneti, First
Builders of European Community - Tracing the History and Language of
Early Ancestors of Slovenes"
Neveryon
George S. Tsapanos
>If you don't already know, Skopje is the capital of the Republic
of>Macedonia,>as for Heraklea, yes, that is in Bitola, Republic of Macedonia
and no, I>have>no intention in learning Albanian, thank you very much.>
Bito
SKOPIA is the capital of FYROM/SKOPIA thats it.
What language were they speaking in Heraklea Lyngestis?
What kind of letters the statues have in there?
Have you ever been there, or are you afraid to face the past of the true
Makedonians?
As for Albanian.......you'll learn it you like it or not, those Albanians
pretty soon will take over SKOPIA, and don't look to the South for help, we are
tired of you people.
WolfWolf
> WolfWolf wrote:
>
> > Well done, Tassos, character assassination helps you to avoid
> > in-depth discussion.
> >
> > You may say whatever you want, but regardless of the authors and
> > your disagreement with them there are some facts on the table which
> > are evident while others raise questions, and they will not
> > disappear so easily.
> >
> > WolfWolf The European
> >
> > "Anastassios Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:dN67b.394905$Ho3.59562@sccrnsc03...
> >
>
> >
> >> "Neveryon" <neve...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3F5C32CD...@hotmail.com...
> >>
>
> <snip>
>
> -------------------------------------
>
> Dear WolfWolf.
>
> I'm afraid you are throwing your money on the wrong horse here. It's
> your money of course, and I have the inkling that in any case you could
> do no different, but this does not change the fact that these "theories"
> represent the most absurd, hilarious and lunatic pseudo-scientific
> ramblings ever written on the subject.
Only some short (and not exhaustive) replies below, in order to show you where *you*
are throwing your money.
>
> Let's see a sample of what these famous "professors" have produced in
> terms of proof that the modern "Macedonians" are the honest to goodness,
> the ones and only true ascendants of their notorious ancient namesakes:
> They have found several words, names, etc, that they maintain are
> exclusive to the illusory Macedonian language and are still used in
> modern Makedonski. Let's have a look [excerpts in brackets as taken from
> Similarities Between Ancient Macedonian and Today's Macedonian Culture
> - (Linguistics and Onomastics) - Author: Prof. Aleksandar Donski]
>
> [...Kopria. This name has possible connections to the noun "kopra" (a
> dill). It is a well-known practice to derive personal names from those
> of the plant world. In 16th century Macedonia one finds the female name
> Kopra. ]
>
> Have they ever heard about the "Kopros tou Avgeiou"? It was one of the
> most ...odorous of the Hercules' feats.
So could you give us any other example, in any other language, where a word from the
fecal language has become part of a name?!?
This is so void of sense that it doesn't need further comment.
A fast and big shot into your own foot.
>
> [...Myrcin(us). Name of a king of an ancient Macedonian tribe Edoni,
> mentioned by Herodotus. If we remove the Greek "us", we get the name
> Myrcin (Mirkin). To the present day in the Macedonian language there is
> the female name "Mirka" (derived from the noun "mir", which means
> peace), while "Mirkin" is an adjective which means "The one who belongs
> to Mirka". Among the Macedonians, right up to the 20th century, men
> frequently received names derived from their mother's name (Kanin son of
> Kana; Mirkin son of Mirka and etc.). Could that be the case with this
> name? The names Mirkan, Mirin and so on are present in todays'
> Macedonian onomasticon. ]
>
> Could it be that they never heard - or chose to ignore - the Greek
> "Myrsini" - the myrtle? "Mir", my ass! Why not "Urchin"? Sounds closer
> to me.
So what does the syllab "myr-" in "myrsini" mean (if it has by itself any meaning at
all)?
While the noun "mir" is perfectly traceable in this case, and there are many languages
with "peace" as part of (specifically) female names, your proposal seems blurred, at
the best.
You're trying to discredit the obvious with an obviously weak example. Not very
professional, to put it mildly.
>
> [...Mama. This is identical to the present day Macedonian noun "mama",
> which in any case, exists in other languages. In 15th century Macedonia
> one finds the female name Mamica (deminutive for Mama). ]
>
> As far as I know, this noun is shared with identical meaning between
> some 200 known languages around the world. Indeed, you can be sure that
> when a child cries "mama!" at some park, his/her cry will nowhere go
> unheeded. Yes, it is proof of common linguistic origins, but at a far
> deeper level. If you are to search for its inventors, you should be
> prepared to go very far back in time, to the dawn of the humankind and
> its first attempts to communicate verbally.
> Going a bit further, I have it from secure sources that a Chinese, a
> Somali, a Canadian, a Belgian and an Australian when they have the
> misfortune to, say, step on a nail will all cry out "Ahhh!" or "Ohhh!".
> Does that prove a linguistic connection between their particular
> languages and their genes, apart from demonstrating the fact that we are
> all humans?
Are you insinuating any connection between linguistics and genetics?
Be careful, you're on the wrong path ...
As for onomatopoetic expressions, they are totally unrelated to the etymology of
names.
And even so, you are wrong. There are languages where the pain is expressed with open
wovels ("Ahhh", but also "Aoooo"), while others use closed wovels ("Eeeee"). Same
happens with moving your head left-and-right for denying, while in India they move it
up and down, which for us means "yes".
> [...Temen(os). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian
> adjective "temen" (dark). ]
>
> Dark! Really! And what about "temenos" that is used even today in Greek?
> (temen-os, eos, to, Arc. nom. and acc. sg. temenes IG5(2).432.31 ,42
> (Megalop., ii B.C.); Aeol. gen. sg. temeneos Alc.152 : ( [temno] ):--a
> piece of land cut off and assigned as an official domain, a piece of
> land marked off from common uses and dedicated to a god, precinct,
> temple - Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon)
And how could a "piece of land" possibly evolve into a name?
Next you will make up another example with "piece of sh***".
While adjectives, like "dark", are much more frequent to be found in names.
>
> [...Silen(us). Name of a forest demon in Brygian mythology. The root of
> this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "silen" (that
> which has spiritual or physical strength). In middle age Macedonia one
> finds the names: Silan, Silano and Silane. ]
>
> Brygian? Well, I don't know about the Brygians (or Phrygians, a people
> of nebulous origin that resided in western Asia Minor up to the 7th
> century BC, when their kingdom was destroyed by the Assyrians). They
> maybe had some myths about "Silenus", and maybe not. But why ignore the
> obvious? (Seilenos, Silenus, companion of Bacchus, Hdt.; father of the
> Satyrs - Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon.)
> It is really funny the lengths of absurdity these good "scientists" are
> prepared to go into, in order to avoid anything pointing to a connection
> of "their" Macedonians with the accursed Greeks.
Well, well, if you are so sure about your theory, you can probably also give us some
ancient Greek writings or objects with inscriptions found in the territory of today's
Macedonia where Bacchus' companion appears.
Did you see any?
I haven't
You might find more information about Veneti here:
http://www.niagara.com/~jezovnik/anthony_ambrozic.htm
Observe the remark at the end:
"Foremost - and I have called attention to this elsewhere - an investigation must be
made of all inscriptions associated with the age of Philip of Macedon preceding the
Hellenization of his son, Alexander, under the tutelage of Aristotle. The close
collaboration of Macedonian and Greek scholars must be solicited and sustained for
this effort. [...] These Venetic inscriptions from Dura-Europos lend weighty if still
circumstantial evidence to my original conjecture that Alexander and his Macedonian
people may very well have been Veneti. If this does prove to be the case, then the
Macedonian people today will have every justifiable reason to reclaim their own
linguistic patrimony."
I cannot find the Veneti or Phrygians more obscure than your interpretation of the
names. Not only obscure, it seem hilarious.
WolfWolf
The European
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
> bito wrote:
>
> >If you don't already know, Skopje is the capital of the Republic
> of>Macedonia,>as for Heraklea, yes, that is in Bitola, Republic of Macedonia
> and no, I>have>no intention in learning Albanian, thank you very much.>
>
> Bito
> SKOPIA is the capital of FYROM/SKOPIA thats it.
> What language were they speaking in Heraklea Lyngestis?
Latin at one time, Italian during the occupation, Macedonian most of the time, and
certain parts of Bitola outskirts are now speaking Albanian
Yannis the Makedonian
....................................
> > What language were they speaking in Heraklea Lyngestis?
> Latin at one time, Italian during the occupation, Macedonian most of the
time, and
> certain parts of Bitola outskirts are now speaking Albanian
The people that built the city were Macedonians and spoke Greek. No reason
for Romans, Italians, Albanians or SlavoSkopians to name the city Heraklea.
Macedonians were always Greeks.
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
Anastassios Retzios
> > > > about the history of Macedonia by a leaflet written by a
psychologist
> > > > and not by a whole number of prominent western historians. Care to
> > > > elucidate?
> > >
> > > I have answered this in another posting.
> > >
> > What a whopper!!! No you have not, my man, you have not. Give it
another
> > shot, anyway. I am looking forward to it.
>
> We have some irrefutable facts on the table. As long as you don't
enlighten us with
> clear evidence that each single of them and all of them in whole are not
what their
> characteristics show us, they remain a valid testimony for the distinct
ancient
> Macedonian language.
>
Now, how does this answer my question???
Irrefutable facts??? You call this compilation of dung irrefutable facts?
You cannot be serious. Why do you prefer to believe a guy called
"Alexandrar Donski" and the compilation of manure (oh, if only sarissa was
indeed called "zarissa" -no evidence for this whatsover- and then really was
called zariss, then it is close to...."put your own word here". This is not
evidence, this is manure of the smelliest variety) instead of the "Oxford
Dictionary of Classical Antiquity"? The article on Macedonia and its
language has been co-authored by Borza among others (if this gives you any
comfort). Why don't you read it instead of the stupidities compiled by our
"friend" Donski who cannot grab his rear end with either hand
I am not really usually excitable but when you come up with gems like this
that fly in the face of anything remotely sane, I find it difficult to
control myself....Very much as the location of medieval Macedonia (which is
in every basic text on Byzantium) or the use of the term "imperator" (when I
provided you with proof that the title was used as early as the 200's BC by
Scipio, your only comment is that the exact quote from the web site was a
fake !!???!!!. Go read Plutarch, goddamn it!!) Just do not abuse history
that much.
ADR
PS: It is fine with me if you want to support FYROM. All the power to you.
But supporting even the weirdest claims of the stupid Macedonists goes
beyond any call of duty and enters into the realm of stupidity. Not even
the majority of the "Macedonians" in FYROM believe this garbage.
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
> Observe the remark at the end:
> "Foremost - and I have called attention to this elsewhere - an
investigation must be
> made of all inscriptions associated with the age of Philip of Macedon
preceding the
> Hellenization of his son, Alexander, under the tutelage of Aristotle. The
close
> collaboration of Macedonian and Greek scholars must be solicited and
sustained for
> this effort. [...] These Venetic inscriptions from Dura-Europos lend
weighty if still
> circumstantial evidence to my original conjecture that Alexander and his
Macedonian
> people may very well have been Veneti. If this does prove to be the case,
then the
> Macedonian people today will have every justifiable reason to reclaim
their own
> linguistic patrimony."
>
> I cannot find the Veneti or Phrygians more obscure than your
interpretation of the
> names. Not only obscure, it seem hilarious.
Circumstatial evidence....my arse. Why do you want to appear ridiculous
repeating the stupidities of "professor Donski"??? Don't you have any
critical judgement at all? Can't you see what is evident to all (of how
phoney these claims are??)
Just for your information: the "hellenization of Alexander"!!! If the
pre-Alexander Macedonia was not hellenic or hellenized, what was Euripides
doing 100 years before Alexander III staging "Iphigeneia In Tauris" in
Pella???? or maybing he was providing a translation into "Macedonian" along
with the program for the play for just five drachmae, I suppose!!! Or maybe
five drachmae was too high of a price Another question? Where did he find
actors who were conversant in Attic Greek in Pella? Did he jetset them from
Athens just for the play??? Wait, wait...he must have!! And just a minute
there!! During the performance, the spectators started shouting
"zarissa" -instead of sarissa"- but they were really shouting zariss....oh,
you get my drift...
ADR
ERIC
I believe that there has been a typographical error; the esteemed 'prof.'
Donski has no S in his name.
Regards
Eric
--
"Anastassios Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:HHs7b.403882$YN5.266101@sccrnsc01...
George S. Tsapanos
>Latin at one time, Italian during the occupation, Macedonian most of the
>time, and>certain parts of Bitola outskirts are now speaking Albanian>
Italian? How would be possible? Voutelion was occupied by the BULGARS seeking
their old brothers in there.
Not to forget of course the writings in Hellenic on the statues and the coins
in there. Here, one more time the site:
http://www.heraclea.org.mk/english/1.htm
WolfWolf
"Anastassios Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:HHs7b.403882$YN5.266101@sccrnsc01...
> > > > > Anyway, the question still remains as to why you seem so convinced
> > > > > about the history of Macedonia by a leaflet written by a
> psychologist
> > > > > and not by a whole number of prominent western historians. Care to
> > > > > elucidate?
> > > >
> > > > I have answered this in another posting.
> > > >
> > > What a whopper!!! No you have not, my man, you have not. Give it
> another
> > > shot, anyway. I am looking forward to it.
> >
> > We have some irrefutable facts on the table. As long as you don't
> enlighten us with
> > clear evidence that each single of them and all of them in whole are not
> what their
> > characteristics show us, they remain a valid testimony for the distinct
> ancient
> > Macedonian language.
> >
>
> Now, how does this answer my question???
>
> Irrefutable facts??? You call this compilation of dung irrefutable facts?
You may disagree with the analysis and conclusions, and I also do not share all of
them, but calling the facts a "compilation of dung" disqualifies you for any serious
discussion, Tassos.
> You cannot be serious. Why do you prefer to believe a guy called
> "Alexandrar Donski" and the compilation of manure (oh, if only sarissa was
> indeed called "zarissa" -no evidence for this whatsover- and then really was
> called zariss, then it is close to...."put your own word here". This is not
> evidence, this is manure of the smelliest variety) instead of the "Oxford
> Dictionary of Classical Antiquity"? The article on Macedonia and its
> language has been co-authored by Borza among others (if this gives you any
> comfort). Why don't you read it instead of the stupidities compiled by our
> "friend" Donski who cannot grab his rear end with either hand
So Donski's "stupidities" are less worth than yours, Tassos?
Even if not convincing in all details, at least I see in these works a honest
approach, which cannot be said about your drivel.
> I am not really usually excitable but when you come up with gems like this
> that fly in the face of anything remotely sane, I find it difficult to
> control myself....Very much as the location of medieval Macedonia (which is
> in every basic text on Byzantium) or the use of the term "imperator" (when I
> provided you with proof that the title was used as early as the 200's BC by
> Scipio, your only comment is that the exact quote from the web site was a
> fake !!???!!!. Go read Plutarch, goddamn it!!) Just do not abuse history
> that much.
Come on, Tassos, do you want to reactivate your foolish theories about the origins of
the term "imperator" which would blush with shame any historian?!?
I thought the issue was clear, and I didn't insist any longer on it, so you should
definitely control yourself, even if it's difficult.
>
> ADR
>
> PS: It is fine with me if you want to support FYROM.
I am supporting Macedonians and their state, not five letters.
> All the power to you.
> But supporting even the weirdest claims of the stupid Macedonists goes
> beyond any call of duty and enters into the realm of stupidity. Not even
> the majority of the "Macedonians" in FYROM believe this garbage.
So now you see what happens with disagreement for ideological reasons.
Do you think that every Greek believes your "garbage"???
Actually, I have seen some essays about the subject written by Greeks (most of them
living abroad) which were refreshingly objective and by no way dripping wet with
nationalism like your statements.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
Last year I saw an impressive performance of José Carreras in Efes (Ephesus).
Does this mean that Turkey is or will become now the new home of Don Quixotte?!?
> or maybing he was providing a translation into "Macedonian" along
> with the program for the play for just five drachmae, I suppose!!! Or maybe
> five drachmae was too high of a price Another question? Where did he find
> actors who were conversant in Attic Greek in Pella? Did he jetset them from
> Athens just for the play??? Wait, wait...he must have!! And just a minute
> there!! During the performance, the spectators started shouting
> "zarissa" -instead of sarissa"- but they were really shouting zariss....oh,
> you get my drift...
If there was so many Hellenic culture in Macedonia as you say (actually, by your words
it seems that there was more than in Athens itself), how come that no relevant
archaeological findings exist?
Did Alexander take them all with him when he conquered Greece for selling them in
Athens on the flea market?!?
WolfWolf
The European
Ilinden
restaurant in Toronto? Do you need another cook? Or a Ftcogian or Turkogrekos to
clean your dirty loo.Or your dirty brain.
Ilinden
Anastassios Retzios
> >
> > Irrefutable facts??? You call this compilation of dung irrefutable
facts?
>
> You may disagree with the analysis and conclusions, and I also do not
share all of
> them, but calling the facts a "compilation of dung" disqualifies you for
any serious
> discussion, Tassos.
>
> > You cannot be serious. Why do you prefer to believe a guy called
> > "Alexandrar Donski" and the compilation of manure (oh, if only sarissa
was
> > indeed called "zarissa" -no evidence for this whatsover- and then really
was
> > called zariss, then it is close to...."put your own word here". This is
not
> > evidence, this is manure of the smelliest variety) instead of the
"Oxford
> > Dictionary of Classical Antiquity"? The article on Macedonia and its
> > language has been co-authored by Borza among others (if this gives you
any
> > comfort). Why don't you read it instead of the stupidities compiled by
our
> > "friend" Donski who cannot grab his rear end with either hand
>
> So Donski's "stupidities" are less worth than yours, Tassos?
Why are you evading the answer? Is this what I asked you? I asked you why
is Don(s)ki's manure more believable to you than the whole western
historiography on Macedonia. This is now the 4th time you have refused to
answer
> Even if not convincing in all details, at least I see in these works a
honest
> approach, which cannot be said about your drivel.
He, he, he....trying to insult me you moron?
> > I am not really usually excitable but when you come up with gems like
this
> > that fly in the face of anything remotely sane, I find it difficult to
> > control myself....Very much as the location of medieval Macedonia (which
is
> > in every basic text on Byzantium) or the use of the term "imperator"
(when I
> > provided you with proof that the title was used as early as the 200's BC
by
> > Scipio, your only comment is that the exact quote from the web site was
a
> > fake !!???!!!. Go read Plutarch, goddamn it!!) Just do not abuse
history
> > that much.
>
> Come on, Tassos, do you want to reactivate your foolish theories about the
origins of
> the term "imperator" which would blush with shame any historian?!?
Yes, dammit...only to show what an utter fool you are. Please repeat here
again that Julius Caesar was the first person to be hailed as imperator, or
to use this term. Pleeeeeaaaaaasseee!!
> I thought the issue was clear, and I didn't insist any longer on it, so
you should
> definitely control yourself, even if it's difficult.
Now, this is believable....who are you kidding????
> >
> > PS: It is fine with me if you want to support FYROM.
>
> I am supporting Macedonians and their state, not five letters.
How come you are not supporting me??? (Not that I need you anywhere near me)
> > All the power to you.
> > But supporting even the weirdest claims of the stupid Macedonists goes
> > beyond any call of duty and enters into the realm of stupidity. Not
even
> > the majority of the "Macedonians" in FYROM believe this garbage.
>
> So now you see what happens with disagreement for ideological reasons.
> Do you think that every Greek believes your "garbage"???
Yes
> Actually, I have seen some essays about the subject written by Greeks
(most of them
> living abroad) which were refreshingly objective and by no way dripping
wet with
> nationalism like your statements.
Post them
ADR
sgeorgio2003
> Eric the Red you are flummoxed with your gluposti, how is the business
> restaurant in Toronto? Do you need another cook?
Prof. Donkey is a good kook.In F.Y.R.O.M the F.Y.R.O.Mians call him
Donski:
Ilinden
Ilinden the Macedonian
WolfWolf
Because the "whole western historiography on Macedonia" as you call it, is not whole,
reflects *only* a part of the existing findings, does not give convincing answers to
all questions, and is - at least in part - influenced by hellenocentric views which
are not shared by all scholars.
Bias is not the best teacher.
>
> > Even if not convincing in all details, at least I see in these works a
> honest
> > approach, which cannot be said about your drivel.
>
> He, he, he....trying to insult me you moron?
No need for that, Tassos, the way you're exposing yourself says it all.
>
> > > I am not really usually excitable but when you come up with gems like
> this
> > > that fly in the face of anything remotely sane, I find it difficult to
> > > control myself....Very much as the location of medieval Macedonia (which
> is
> > > in every basic text on Byzantium) or the use of the term "imperator"
> (when I
> > > provided you with proof that the title was used as early as the 200's BC
> by
> > > Scipio, your only comment is that the exact quote from the web site was
> a
> > > fake !!???!!!. Go read Plutarch, goddamn it!!) Just do not abuse
> history
> > > that much.
> >
> > Come on, Tassos, do you want to reactivate your foolish theories about the
> origins of
> > the term "imperator" which would blush with shame any historian?!?
>
> Yes, dammit...only to show what an utter fool you are. Please repeat here
> again that Julius Caesar was the first person to be hailed as imperator, or
> to use this term.
I said that Julius Caesar was the first *statesman* who used that title.
The Latin word "imperare" means "to impose". So among soldiers an "imperator" was a
military comander with the right "to impose" punishment on the soldiers under his
command.
Prove me wrong, if you can.
So far you could not.
Only *one* example of many others - which you did not refute. Because you cannot.
Tassos:
> And Julius Ceasar's coins do not have the acronym IMP
> on them but just the word "Caesar".
WolfWolf:
One answer, one word: LIAR!!
(60) Julius Caesar and Marcus Mettius - AR denarius, 44 B.C., 3.78 g. (inv. 91.106).
Obverse: Laureate head of Julius Caesar r., with long neck; CAESAR IMPER(ATOR):
Caesar, imperator.
Reverse: Venus Victrix walking l., holding small Victoria in l. and spear in r., with
shield at l. side; monogram in l. field; M METTIVS: Marcus Mettius (mint magistrate).
Provenance: Edward Gans, 1959.
Bibliography: J.P.C. Kent, Roman Coins (London 1978) 17.
http://www.lawrence.edu/dept/art/buerger/catalogue/060.html
So, Tassos, who is playig with history like a child, forging quotes of the opponent,
and flatly telling whoppers?!?
> > I thought the issue was clear, and I didn't insist any longer on it, so
> you should
> > definitely control yourself, even if it's difficult.
>
> Now, this is believable....who are you kidding????
>
> > >
> > > PS: It is fine with me if you want to support FYROM.
> >
> > I am supporting Macedonians and their state, not five letters.
>
> How come you are not supporting me??? (Not that I need you anywhere near me)
I would, if you were honest and, above all, fair.
>
> > > All the power to you.
> > > But supporting even the weirdest claims of the stupid Macedonists goes
> > > beyond any call of duty and enters into the realm of stupidity. Not
> even
> > > the majority of the "Macedonians" in FYROM believe this garbage.
> >
> > So now you see what happens with disagreement for ideological reasons.
> > Do you think that every Greek believes your "garbage"???
>
> Yes
Some perhaps, but every certainly not.
I have seen much more funny theories than yours, that ancient Greeks had colonized the
Southern Cone (Argentine, Paraguay, Chile), that Columbus was Greek, and that ancient
Athens had more inhabitants than Peking at that time, so there must be gullible
people, otherwise such stories would fade out by themselves.
>
> > Actually, I have seen some essays about the subject written by Greeks
> (most of them
> > living abroad) which were refreshingly objective and by no way dripping
> wet with
> > nationalism like your statements.
>
> Post them
I don't have them with me where I am now and may take me time, but I will search for
them.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
"sgeorgio2003" <sgeorg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3c8a3b6d.03091...@posting.google.com...
> Ilinden <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:<3F5F9D7F...@sympatico.ca>...
> > Eric the Red you are flummoxed with your gluposti, how is the business
> > restaurant in Toronto? Do you need another cook?
>
> Prof. Donkey is a good kook.In F.Y.R.O.M the F.Y.R.O.Mians call him
> Donski:
While in Turkish the word for 'donkey' is spelled like this:
s-g-e-o-r-g-i-o
This was a little education given to you for free!
WolfWolf
The European
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
Galina wrote:>Latin at one time, Italian during the occupation, Macedonian most of the
>time, and>certain parts of Bitola outskirts are now speaking Albanian>Italian? How would be possible? Voutelion was occupied by the BULGARS seeking
their old brothers in there.
Not to forget of course the writings in Hellenic on the statues and the coins
in there. Here, one more time the site:
http://www.heraclea.org.mk/english/1.htm
I keep telling you to stop jawing about the Heracleum and go visit.
Bitola area was occupied by Italians in WWII who, becuase they treated
some of the local people decently, when they died in a battle near there
were buried at the Heracleum they loved. Go visit their graves.
++
sgeorgio2003 wrote:
Ilinden <ili...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:<3F5F9D7F...@sympatico.ca>...
> Eric the Red you are flummoxed with your gluposti, how is the business
> restaurant in Toronto? Do you need another cook?Prof. Donkey is a good kook.In F.Y.R.O.M the F.Y.R.O.Mians call him
Donski:
oops, getting awfully close to that killfile. All insults
, no content
Anastassios D. Retzios
> > or maybing he was providing a translation into "Macedonian" along
> > with the program for the play for just five drachmae, I suppose!!! Or
maybe
> > five drachmae was too high of a price Another question? Where did he
find
> > actors who were conversant in Attic Greek in Pella? Did he jetset them
from
> > Athens just for the play??? Wait, wait...he must have!! And just a
minute
> > there!! During the performance, the spectators started shouting
> > "zarissa" -instead of sarissa"- but they were really shouting
zariss....oh,
> > you get my drift...
>
> If there was so many Hellenic culture in Macedonia as you say (actually,
by your words
> it seems that there was more than in Athens itself), how come that no
relevant
> archaeological findings exist?
> Did Alexander take them all with him when he conquered Greece for selling
them in
> Athens on the flea market?!?
I think that this is about the most outrageous statement that I have heard.
What makes you just for a moment believe that there are no evidence of
Hellenic culture of Macedonia? This is a ridiculous statement considering
the extent of Hellenic culture unearthed in Macedonia. I may, of course, be
misguided and you may be referring to FYROM. In FYROM, the area of
classical Macedonia only extents a few miles from the Greek border with the
only sizeable habitation in the area that of Heraclea Lynkestis and this one
did not achieve "urban" status until some time after the beginning of Roman
occupation. However, in the core of classical Macedonia that lies within
Greece, there is abundant evidence of Hellenic civilization unearthed. Just
for your information, check out the escavations at Dion. This is a very
brief summary of the site
http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21116/e211pa11.html
However, try to connect to the cultural map of the Greek Ministry of Culture
and you can visit thus all the archaeological sites and museums in
Macedonia. They are numerous. One third of the Archaeological Museum of
Thessaloniki is devoted to the Hellenic/Hellenistic stage of development of
the city and the surrounding area.
I may be at a total loss as to what you were referring but then, I usually
am with you.
ADR
George S. Tsapanos
>I keep telling you to stop jawing about the Heracleum and go visit.
Bitola>area>was occupied by Italians in WWII who, becuase they treated some of
the local>people decently, when they died in a battle near there were buried at
the>Heracleum they loved. Go visit their graves.>
BULGARS, BULGARS Galina
That what they were the people that occupied Voutelion.
Even the Germans that they were there, most of the times were under their
orders or they were corrupted with good looking whores from Bulgaria, wine and
gold, so the BULGARS could go after our peasants stilling their products.
The Italians were to the West of Florina, Kossovo and part of Metoja.
WolfWolf
"Anastassios D. Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:ydb8b.39204$mp.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
Then tell us about any findings of Hellenic culture which originated from the lands
along Vardar river between Gevgelija and Gostivar.
> This is a ridiculous statement considering
> the extent of Hellenic culture unearthed in Macedonia. I may, of course, be
> misguided and you may be referring to FYROM. In FYROM, the area of
> classical Macedonia only extents a few miles from the Greek border with the
> only sizeable habitation in the area that of Heraclea Lynkestis and this one
> did not achieve "urban" status until some time after the beginning of Roman
> occupation.
If it is so "ridiculous", how come that the area of "Macedonia SPQR" after Roman
occupation covers most areas of today's regions Vardar, Aegean, and Pirin Macedonia?
http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea0100.htm
> However, in the core of classical Macedonia that lies within
> Greece, there is abundant evidence of Hellenic civilization unearthed. Just
> for your information, check out the escavations at Dion. This is a very
> brief summary of the site
>
> http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21116/e211pa11.html
>
> However, try to connect to the cultural map of the Greek Ministry of Culture
> and you can visit thus all the archaeological sites and museums in
> Macedonia. They are numerous. One third of the Archaeological Museum of
> Thessaloniki is devoted to the Hellenic/Hellenistic stage of development of
> the city and the surrounding area.
Sorry, but the Greek Ministry of Culture has obviously missed this one:
http://www.theatrelibrary.org/sibmas/idpac/europe/mks002.html#14
Do you mean that the inscription of this cup found in the area of Skopje is Greek?
http://faq.macedonia.org/images/skopje.cup.jpg
>
> I may be at a total loss as to what you were referring but then, I usually
> am with you.
Thanks, Tassos, your insults are always an unmistakable sign of your presence.
WolfWolf
The European
Yannis the Makedonian
....................................................
> Sorry, but the Greek Ministry of Culture has obviously missed this one:
> http://www.theatrelibrary.org/sibmas/idpac/europe/mks002.html#14
After 1944 some nameless Bulgarian lost souls believed to be Macedonians.
Fake of course.
In the page above there is only one museum "entitled "Macedonian" built
before 194x.
Museum of Art Macedonia
Date founded: 1924
I 'm wondering what was the first name of the museum. No I don't want any
SlavoSkopian to answer because they don't know or they know wrong or they
will answer intentionally wrong.
> Do you mean that the inscription of this cup found in the area of Skopje
is Greek?
> http://faq.macedonia.org/images/skopje.cup.jpg
.........................................
> WolfWolf
> The Vlakas
Of course!! Is there any other language that has the letters: "ÑÃ" ( ro,
gamma) toghether ??
Yannis
Macedonia, Greece
WolfWolf
"Yannis the TURK" <mak...@vip.gr> wrote in message news:3f62...@news.sch.gr...
> "WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote:
> ....................................................
> > Sorry, but the Greek Ministry of Culture has obviously missed this one:
> > http://www.theatrelibrary.org/sibmas/idpac/europe/mks002.html#14
>
>
> After 1944 some nameless Bulgarian lost souls believed to be Macedonians.
And one of them are you, Jovanche, as we know now.
Hey, Bulgarski, why don't you move to soc.culture.bulgarian, for a change?!?
WolfWolf
The European
++
Bulgarians WERE occupying Macedonia at that time. We all know that. Poeple I am
talking about are Italina, buried , gravestones and all, at the Heracleum, i.e.
they are on the ground in graves. Their relatives occasionally go to Macedonia to
visit them. They are to the side of the cafe.
Anastassios D. Retzios
Why would I have to do this? This was the edge of the Macedonian world and
it was, at best, patrolled by troops but mostly an interface between the
Macedonian kingdom, the Paeonians and the Dardanians who occassionally came
down from the north. The Paeonians, who lived in the area had their own
kingdom although for a period of time this kingdom was under Macedonian
control.
> > This is a ridiculous statement considering
> > the extent of Hellenic culture unearthed in Macedonia. I may, of
course, be
> > misguided and you may be referring to FYROM. In FYROM, the area of
> > classical Macedonia only extents a few miles from the Greek border with
the
> > only sizeable habitation in the area that of Heraclea Lynkestis and this
one
> > did not achieve "urban" status until some time after the beginning of
Roman
> > occupation.
>
> If it is so "ridiculous", how come that the area of "Macedonia SPQR" after
Roman
> occupation covers most areas of today's regions Vardar, Aegean, and Pirin
Macedonia?
> http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea0100.htm
SPQR stands for Senatus Populusque Romanorum and has nothing to do with
Macedonia. The Roman province of Macedonia changed its borders various
times between 146 BC and 590 AD, but it always included Thessaly and
occassionally Epirus. It included, on occassions about 50% of what is today
FYROM. But these were Roman administrative borders and not national
borders. The true Macedonia, populated by Macedonians, was delineated by
the borders of the kingdom at the time of accession of Philip II.
> > However, in the core of classical Macedonia that lies within
> > Greece, there is abundant evidence of Hellenic civilization unearthed.
Just
> > for your information, check out the escavations at Dion. This is a very
> > brief summary of the site
> >
> > http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21116/e211pa11.html
> >
> > However, try to connect to the cultural map of the Greek Ministry of
Culture
> > and you can visit thus all the archaeological sites and museums in
> > Macedonia. They are numerous. One third of the Archaeological Museum
of
> > Thessaloniki is devoted to the Hellenic/Hellenistic stage of development
of
> > the city and the surrounding area.
>
> Sorry, but the Greek Ministry of Culture has obviously missed this one:
> http://www.theatrelibrary.org/sibmas/idpac/europe/mks002.html#14
>
> Do you mean that the inscription of this cup found in the area of Skopje
is Greek?
> http://faq.macedonia.org/images/skopje.cup.jpg
I cannot make out the inscription but what does it matter? Skopje never
belonged in Macedonia, not even in the Roman province of Macedonia. It was
included in the province of Dardania and/or Moesia, but never in Macedonia.
You may even choose to ask one of your Skopje friends on that.
> > I may be at a total loss as to what you were referring but then, I
usually
> > am with you.
>
> Thanks, Tassos, your insults are always an unmistakable sign of your
presence.
Well, nothing close to what you dish out.
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
> > Why are you evading the answer? Is this what I asked you? I asked you
why
> > is Don(s)ki's manure more believable to you than the whole western
> > historiography on Macedonia. This is now the 4th time you have refused
to
> > answer
>
> Because the "whole western historiography on Macedonia" as you call it, is
not whole,
> reflects *only* a part of the existing findings, does not give convincing
answers to
> all questions, and is - at least in part - influenced by hellenocentric
views which
> are not shared by all scholars.
> Bias is not the best teacher.
And, I guess, after reading the voluminous history of Macedonia by Hammond,
the History of Macedonia by Erington, the huge contributions in the
historiography of the Hellenistic Age by Tarn, Grant and Green, the
historical work of Wilcken, the humongous documentation on the Roman
Hellenistic East by a huge variety of authors...and, of course, after
reading many of the primary sources and reviewing the extensive archaelogy
of the area in various publications and journals, you have decided that
these cover *only* a part of the existing findings (tell us where the rest
are hidden) and have decided to discard them and hang you hat on the
"findings" of Professor Don(s)ki. Is this what you are telling us?
Then, these findings were influenced by "hellenocentric" views!!! Are you
conscious when you write these things? Historians and archaelogists submit
their work for publication in peer-review publications and these
publications form the body of review texts. You are trying to tell us here
that the Greeks have charmed the whole western academic system so that the
only person that you can rely on is Professor Don(s)ki. What kind of
palaver is this? Have you lost any sense of critical analysis?
I understand your position in support of the existence of this statelet and
even you advocacy for its name but I have difficulty digesting that you
would buy into this phenomenally bad distortion of history by the
Macedonists.
> > >
> > > Come on, Tassos, do you want to reactivate your foolish theories about
the
> > origins of
> > > the term "imperator" which would blush with shame any historian?!?
> >
> > Yes, dammit...only to show what an utter fool you are. Please repeat
here
> > again that Julius Caesar was the first person to be hailed as imperator,
or
> > to use this term.
>
> I said that Julius Caesar was the first *statesman* who used that title.
> The Latin word "imperare" means "to impose". So among soldiers an
"imperator" was a
> military comander with the right "to impose" punishment on the soldiers
under his
> command.
>
> Prove me wrong, if you can.
> So far you could not.
You are right on the meaning of the word but you are wrong about the usage
in every way conceivable. The title was given to a victorious general by
the troops and such an acclammation entitled this general to a triumph. So,
a very good number of generals prior to Julius Caesar (virtually everyone
who celebrated a triumph) were hailed as imperators.
As of "making use of it", this is silly. Imperator itself was never a
"functional" title, it was not connected to any office or any
responsibility. It was an important acclamation for any subsequent emperor
for the sole reason that emperors were commanders of the field army and an
emperor without an Imperator acclamation was in an embarrashing position.
Therefore, when such titles counted early in the Julio-Claudian line, both
Caligula and Claudius had to personally undertake expeditions in order to be
hailed Imperators by the troops (of course, both Augustus and Tiberius had
won many such acclamations in their military career). Claudius only gained
the acclamation "imperator" after his conclusion of the conquest of Britain.
However, subsequently such acclamations lost their "republican" flavor and
the emperors were hailed as Imperators and celebrated triumphs even if
victories in the field had been won by the local commanders.
The office of the "emperor" per se during the period known as the
"Principate", rested on various offices such as that of the consul (but not
for every year), proconsular authority in most provinces (the imperial
provinces), presidency of the senate (princeps senatus). pontifex maximus
(chief priest) and life-long tribune of the people (veto power and immunity
from prosecution) as well as control of the privy purse. This accumulation
of offices under a "republican" facade was originated by Augustus and
continued in essense until the death of Alexander Severus. After the
"Dominate" and the "Tetrarchy" were established by Diocletian, the
"republican" facade was erased, the constitutional norms of the empire
changed and the title of imperator went into disuse.
So, in conclusion, Scipio Aficanus, Aemilianus, Marius, Sulla, Pompey and
many others had been hailed as imperators by their troops and celebrated
triumphs. However, prior to Augustus, their power came not from the useless
acclamation as Imperator but by their assumption of the office of
"dictator" -an office that Julius Caesar assumed in 46 BC-. Read your basic
Suetonius.
Just to prove you that he was not even nearly the first, here is a coin by
Pompey that includes the acclamation "Imperator"
http://ancient-coin-forum.com/Roman_Republic/Pompey_the_Great.html
Here is also a coin by Sulla that also includes the title Imperator
http://www.romancoins.info/12C-Republic.HTML
Did you have enough???
Or are these sites and coins fake as well???
ADR
WolfWolf
The very core of Macedonia an "edge"???
You must be joking.
See below.
>
> > > This is a ridiculous statement considering
> > > the extent of Hellenic culture unearthed in Macedonia. I may, of
> course, be
> > > misguided and you may be referring to FYROM. In FYROM, the area of
> > > classical Macedonia only extents a few miles from the Greek border with
> the
> > > only sizeable habitation in the area that of Heraclea Lynkestis and this
> one
> > > did not achieve "urban" status until some time after the beginning of
> Roman
> > > occupation.
> >
> > If it is so "ridiculous", how come that the area of "Macedonia SPQR" after
> Roman
> > occupation covers most areas of today's regions Vardar, Aegean, and Pirin
> Macedonia?
> > http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea0100.htm
>
> SPQR stands for Senatus Populusque Romanorum and has nothing to do with
> Macedonia.
But "Macedonia", which stands before SPQR, undoubtedly has to do with what its name
says.
> The Roman province of Macedonia changed its borders various
> times between 146 BC and 590 AD, but it always included Thessaly and
> occassionally Epirus. It included, on occassions about 50% of what is today
> FYROM. But these were Roman administrative borders and not national
> borders.
"National borders", as we know them today, did not exist at those times.
They only appeared when the modern concept of nation came up at the end of the Middle
Ages, when Englishmen considered themselves as "English citizens", and French people
considered themselves as "citoyens françaises".
Skopje is mentioned, under the name of Scupi, in the Roman period. Scupi began as a
legionary camp, possibly housing the 5th Macedonian and/or 4th Scythian, with the
soldiers building a settlement for themselves. Chroniclers have noted that in 518 AD
the town was struck by a disastrous earthquake. After this earthquake, another town
was erected a few kilometres away from the old location. [Remember what we spoke about
Troy and Therme/Thessaloniki!] Later, the town on the banks of the River Vardar
acquired its Slav name of Skopje.
Scupi, because of its important geographical position, had its own province authority
when the province of Dardania was formed at the end of 3th century.
>
> > > I may be at a total loss as to what you were referring but then, I
> usually
> > > am with you.
> >
> > Thanks, Tassos, your insults are always an unmistakable sign of your
> presence.
>
> Well, nothing close to what you dish out.
You should be able to distinguish between criticism of arguments or attitude and
personal insults.
There is ample evidence of a continuum in Macedonia's distinctive territorial and
ethnic history from the times of the Roman Empire, as seen by this map
http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea0100.htm
which includes most part of today's Aegean, Pirin and Vardar Macedonia, the
abbreviation SPQR meaning that its inhabitants had the Ius Italicum (the rights of
Roman citizens),
to the 19th/20th century, which was crucial for the Macedonian nation building, as
seen by this map
http://faq.macedonia.org/images/bigmkd2.jpg
The public perception of Macedonia's history considers it part of Macedonia proper,
not of Greece:
http://tinyurl.com/nbgf
Similarly, the world and Italians themselves do not consider Rome's influence all
across the Mediterranean and beyond the Alpes as part of Italy's history.
Thus, Greece's territorial presence in Macedonia's history only begins in 1913, and in
a not very glorious way.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
See my answer elsewhere in this thread, where I wrote about the public perception of
Macedonia's history.
>
> > > >
> > > > Come on, Tassos, do you want to reactivate your foolish theories about
> the
> > > origins of
> > > > the term "imperator" which would blush with shame any historian?!?
> > >
> > > Yes, dammit...only to show what an utter fool you are. Please repeat
> here
> > > again that Julius Caesar was the first person to be hailed as imperator,
> or
> > > to use this term.
> >
> > I said that Julius Caesar was the first *statesman* who used that title.
> > The Latin word "imperare" means "to impose". So among soldiers an
> "imperator" was a
> > military comander with the right "to impose" punishment on the soldiers
> under his
> > command.
> >
> > Prove me wrong, if you can.
> > So far you could not.
>
> You are right on the meaning of the word but you are wrong about the usage
> in every way conceivable. The title was given to a victorious general by
> the troops and such an acclammation entitled this general to a triumph. So,
> a very good number of generals prior to Julius Caesar (virtually everyone
> who celebrated a triumph) were hailed as imperators.
The concurrent cuse of "imperator" by certain victorious generals does not mean that
they "invented" this term. In only means that they were successful as disciplinary
authority over their soldiers as well as on the battlefield.
Julius Caesar used this attribute as expression of his vanity, which is well known,
thus underligning his domestic authority.
A credible proof for the primary source for your theory of Imperator coming by
"acclamation by the troops" is still missing.
>
> As of "making use of it", this is silly. Imperator itself was never a
> "functional" title, it was not connected to any office or any
> responsibility.
Until Julius Caesar. The subsequent empereors made it part of their claim over
Caesar's legacy.
> Just to prove you that he was not even nearly the first, here is a coin by
> Pompey that includes the acclamation "Imperator"
>
> http://ancient-coin-forum.com/Roman_Republic/Pompey_the_Great.html
If you observe Pompey's coin more in detail you will see the symbols of jug and
lituus, which also denote disciplinary authority, not victories in battlefield.
>
> Here is also a coin by Sulla that also includes the title Imperator
>
> http://www.romancoins.info/12C-Republic.HTML
And if you follow from there to the link:
http://www.romancoins.info/12C-Imperatorial.HTML
you will see also coins with Brutus using the attribute "IMP".
Now, at which battles was Brutus victorious?!?
On the same page you will find a coin depicting Octavianus (after Julius Caesar's
death) with the inscription:
"CAESAR IMP"
which denotes his claim over J.C.'s legacy, as I mentioned before.
>
> Did you have enough???
Enough evidence against your statements that "Julius Ceasar's coins do not have the
acronym IMP" and that the "title 'Imperator' was never 'used' by anyone. It was
honorific, and devoid of any substance, you idiot".
Again, your statement that the title Imperator was "progressively abandoned" is proven
wrong.
It had such a fascination that it was even used for propaganda purposes, like in the
case of Postumus (260 AD), a rebel who revolted against Rome and who made coins with
the legend "IMP C POSTVMVS P F AVG".
http://www.virginia.edu/artmuseum/VirtualExhibitions/Coins/gallic_empire.html
WolfWolf
The European
Anastassios Retzios
"> > > Then tell us about any findings of Hellenic culture which originated
from
> > the lands
> > > along Vardar river between Gevgelija and Gostivar.
> >
> > Why would I have to do this? This was the edge of the Macedonian world
and
> > it was, at best, patrolled by troops but mostly an interface between the
> > Macedonian kingdom, the Paeonians and the Dardanians who occassionally
came
> > down from the north. The Paeonians, who lived in the area had their own
> > kingdom although for a period of time this kingdom was under Macedonian
> > control.
>
> The very core of Macedonia an "edge"???
> You must be joking.
> See below.
This is getting tiresome and funny. For anybody to claim that the very core
of Macedonia was between Gevgelija and Gostivar is to really make a stupid
joke. The core of Macedonia and the center of Macedonian life have always
been located in the lower Aliakmon valley, northern Pieria and Emathia and
possibly the current plain of Campania. This is where the capitals of
classical, hellenistic and Roman Macedonia were located: Aigai (Vergina),
Pella and Thessaloniki. This was the domain of the main dynasty, that of
the Argeads, this was the area that included 80% of the civic centers in
Macedonia. Now, how the area of Gevgelija to Gostivar became the "center of
Macedonia", lies only in your imagination. Maybe you care to explain it but
that would take a strong fever to do so.
> > SPQR stands for Senatus Populusque Romanorum and has nothing to do with
> > Macedonia.
>
> But "Macedonia", which stands before SPQR, undoubtedly has to do with what
its name
> says.
>
> > The Roman province of Macedonia changed its borders various
> > times between 146 BC and 590 AD, but it always included Thessaly and
> > occassionally Epirus. It included, on occassions about 50% of what is
today
> > FYROM. But these were Roman administrative borders and not national
> > borders.
>
> "National borders", as we know them today, did not exist at those times.
> They only appeared when the modern concept of nation came up at the end of
the Middle
> Ages, when Englishmen considered themselves as "English citizens", and
French people
> considered themselves as "citoyens françaises".
How does this answer my entry above???? And if you agree that the Roman
administrative borders were not important in the appearance of a nation (as
this process, according to you occured at the end of the Middle ages) why do
they matter to you? Are you going to now state that because the Romans drew
some borders somewhere, that did become Macedonia for all ages? Then Attica
and other places must have disappeared also because according to the Romans
they were in the province of Achaea (and we know that Achaea is limited to a
small place in the Peloponnese, don't we???) Or maybe we do not!!!
What's a matter a you??? Skopje was never within the Roman Macedonia and
you admit as such. So, why go on about a city that was never within any
construct that bore the name of Macedonia??? Are you now a Tito apologist
as well???
>
> You should be able to distinguish between criticism of arguments or
attitude and
> personal insults.
>
> There is ample evidence of a continuum in Macedonia's distinctive
territorial and
> ethnic history from the times of the Roman Empire, as seen by this map
> http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea0100.htm
> which includes most part of today's Aegean, Pirin and Vardar Macedonia,
the
> abbreviation SPQR meaning that its inhabitants had the Ius Italicum (the
rights of
> Roman citizens),
> to the 19th/20th century, which was crucial for the Macedonian nation
building, as
> seen by this map
> http://faq.macedonia.org/images/bigmkd2.jpg
You are such a damn ass, you go ahead and make stupid statements that have
nothing to do with reality or with history. The first of the above maps
simply delineates the provinces that were under the control of the emperor
(Province name + Cesari) and those that were under the control of the Senate
(Province name + SPQR). It is a device of the map maker. Indeed, Macedonia
was under the control of the "republican" institutions headed by the Senate,
it was a senatorial province. This, idiot did not mean that its inhabitants
had the Ius Italicum (which was defunct at 100 AD anyway), but that the
Senate appointed the local praetor or proconsul and disposed of its affairs.
The emperor had the control of most of the border provinces that contained
the troops.
> The public perception of Macedonia's history considers it part of
Macedonia proper,
> not of Greece:
> http://tinyurl.com/nbgf
> Similarly, the world and Italians themselves do not consider Rome's
influence all
> across the Mediterranean and beyond the Alpes as part of Italy's history.
> Thus, Greece's territorial presence in Macedonia's history only begins in
1913, and in
> a not very glorious way.
What utter bullshit is this? Of course the Roman Empire and its
accomplishments are part of the Roman and Italian history, independent where
the events may have played out. Listen, idiot, Trajan was born in Spain.
Does this mean that because Trajan was born in Spain, that the history of
the Empire during the Antonine dynasty is part of Spanish history? What
utter nonsense are you going to serve us next???
And the history of Macedonia is, of course, the history of Macedonia, very
much as the history of Athens is the history of Athens, not of Greece. Or
are you going to tell us now that the history of Sparta or the history of
Krete or the history of Thebes is the history of Greece????? The aggregate
makes the history of Greece but the parts are both unique but
interdependent.
Do you have an ounce of logic left in you?
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
I am giving up on you. It is really no fun to discuss historical matters
with anyone who posts "what victories?" for Pompey and that there is no
proof that the title Imperator was given by acclamation by the troops. This
is just basic ignorance of the very essence of Roman military history. The
title bore no relation to successfully "punishing the troops". This is an
absolute distortion, it is laughable and you have dreamt all of your own
from the grammatical meaning of the word.
I will not go into the biography of Pompey, or the acclamation of Brutus,
this would be useless. I think that if you want to debate me on this front,
you need to get some decent education. For the Roman Army, I can recommend
many excellent texts, but one of the best is the "Army of Caesars" by
Michael Grant, New York, 1974. I hope that we will not have a stupid
argument as to Michael Grant's credentials, will we?
You do not have to go far into the book to find out about the title
Imperator. It is, in fact, how the book begins. In chapter 1 "Army
Leadership in the Failing Republic 107-31 BC", Michael Grant writes:
"In a warlike nation such as the Roman Republic, it was evident that those
generals who commanded many troops and won great successes would acquire
massive and, before long, excessive prestige. The tendency of Roman
legionaries to get on talking terms with their commanders has already been
mentioned; and after a victory they formed the habit of saluting them by a
special title of honour, Imperator, the commander par excellence. The first
man to have been hailed in this way is Lucius Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus,
after military operations in Lusitania (Further Spain) in 189 BC. However,
he may not have been the absolute first, for it was believed that his
brother-in-law, Scipio Africanus the elder, whose triumph over Hannibal
brought the Second Punic war to a victorious close in 201 BC, had likewise
been saluted Imperator...."
I do not think that I have to continue...The same information, of course,
can be found in many texts on the Roman Army and if you want to continue
your education I can also suggest "the Making of the Roman Army" by Lawrence
Keppie, "The Roman Imperial Army" by Graham Webster, and the "Late Roman
Army" by P. Southern and KR Dixon (who also authored the "Roman Cavalry"),
"The Roman Art of War under the Republic" by FE Adcock, "The Roman Legions"
by HMD Parker, and the "Grand Strategy of the Roman Empire" by EN Luttwak
(all of which, among others, I possess).
So, please, stop mouthing stupidities.
ADR
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message
news:bk29ul$8c2$4...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com...
Anastassios Retzios
ADR
WolfWolf
"Anastassios Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in mesage
news:BL29b.340032$cF.102787@rwcrnsc53...
And Stobi (not far from Skupi/Skopje), which became capital of "Macedonia Secunda"
under the Roman Empire, is not worth mentioning?!?
Funny, Tassos, that you conveniently omit those historic facts which don't suit your
taste.
Come on, we both know where the name "Achaea" originally came from.
The name Achaea for the Roman province was given after in 146 AD the Acheans, who had
declared war on Rome, were crushed by Q. Caecilius Metellus and L. Mummius, Corinth
was sacked and destroyed, the Achean league was dissolved, and Greece, under the name
of Achea, was made a province and placed under the control of the governor of
Macedonia.
History did not begin with Tito nor did it end when he died, and Skopje was part of
Macedonia long before Tito.
You're not going to tell us that F. Bianconi, author of the "Carte commerciale de la
province do Macedoine" (Paris, 1885) was influenced by a later politician called Tito,
do you?!?
> > You should be able to distinguish between criticism of arguments or
> attitude and
> > personal insults.
> >
> > There is ample evidence of a continuum in Macedonia's distinctive
> territorial and
> > ethnic history from the times of the Roman Empire, as seen by this map
> > http://www.euratlas.com/time/sea0100.htm
> > which includes most part of today's Aegean, Pirin and Vardar Macedonia,
> the
> > abbreviation SPQR meaning that its inhabitants had the Ius Italicum (the
> rights of
> > Roman citizens),
> > to the 19th/20th century, which was crucial for the Macedonian nation
> building, as
> > seen by this map
> > http://faq.macedonia.org/images/bigmkd2.jpg
>
> You are such a damn ass,
I think that I miss something, and I might fall ill, the day you stop uttering your
vituperous insults.
> you go ahead and make stupid statements that have
> nothing to do with reality or with history. The first of the above maps
> simply delineates the provinces that were under the control of the emperor
> (Province name + Cesari) and those that were under the control of the Senate
> (Province name + SPQR). It is a device of the map maker. Indeed, Macedonia
> was under the control of the "republican" institutions headed by the Senate,
> it was a senatorial province. This, idiot did not mean that its inhabitants
> had the Ius Italicum (which was defunct at 100 AD anyway),
Did you know that Tripoli was awarded "ius italicum" (exemption from land taxes) by
Septimus Severus (AD 208-212)?!?
It seems that this is not the only inaccuracy in your statement above.
> > The public perception of Macedonia's history considers it part of
> Macedonia proper,
> > not of Greece:
> > http://tinyurl.com/nbgf
> > Similarly, the world and Italians themselves do not consider Rome's
> influence all
> > across the Mediterranean and beyond the Alpes as part of Italy's history.
> > Thus, Greece's territorial presence in Macedonia's history only begins in
> 1913, and in
> > a not very glorious way.
>
> What utter bullshit is this? Of course the Roman Empire and its
> accomplishments are part of the Roman and Italian history,
Of the (ancient) Roman history yes, but certainly *not* of the Italian history.
If you tell this to a French or Spaniard, or even to an Italian, you will earn nothing
but laughing.
> independent where
> the events may have played out. Listen, idiot, Trajan was born in Spain.
I know, I have been at his birthplace, the impressive ruins of Italica in southern
Spain.
Oh, and thanks again for the insult - I nearly missed it.
> Does this mean that because Trajan was born in Spain, that the history of
> the Empire during the Antonine dynasty is part of Spanish history? What
> utter nonsense are you going to serve us next???
Trajan was the son of M. Ulpius Traianus, a prominent senator and general from a
famous Roman family. The family had settled in the province of Baetica in Spain. So he
was descendant of "expats". He was living from AD 53-117. Spain as such began to exist
in 1492. How could he possibly belong to Spanish history?!?
> And the history of Macedonia is, of course, the history of Macedonia, very
> much as the history of Athens is the history of Athens, not of Greece. Or
> are you going to tell us now that the history of Sparta or the history of
> Krete or the history of Thebes is the history of Greece????? The aggregate
> makes the history of Greece but the parts are both unique but
> interdependent.
What you fail to explain is why Macedonia makes part of this aggregate.
Only a part of Macedonia, the Aegean part, is under Greek domain, since 1913.
The rest is Macedonia proper.
The historic continuity is out of doubt:
http://tinyurl.com/ncx6
http://tinyurl.com/ncx9
http://tinyurl.com/ncqk
>
> Do you have an ounce of logic left in you?
Yes, I have. Do you need some?!?
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
have understood how you came to such fallacy.
Livius explains us that Scipio, after defeating the troops of Hasdrubal in the Battle
of Ilipa in 206 BC, released the Spanish prisoners who had previously surrendered.
They gathered around him and saluted him as "King", a title which he - as Roman -
could not accept. Instead he suggested them to use "Imperator" as he was called by his
Roman soldiers in consideraton of his disciplinary authority.
TITUS LIVIUS, AB URBE CONDITA, LIBER XXVII [19]:
"... Circumfusa inde multitudo Hispanorum et ante deditorum et pridie captorum regem
eum ingenti consensu appellauit. Tum Scipio silentio per praeconem facto sibi maximum
nomen imperatoris esse dixit quo se milites sui appellassent: regium nomen alibi
magnum, Romae intolerabile esse. ..."
By this way, Scipio was the first military commander who used this distinction in
connection to a victory, but it was certainly not given to him by his own troops
hailing for his victory nor was this the original meaning of "Imperator" in military
circles.
After Scipio the title "Imperator" came into use for qualifying a military triumph.
The same like after Caesar it became a political title.
So if your discourse exhausts itself in a superficial analysis, combined with insults
to your opponents, I am very happy for not belonging to your "world".
Now you're going to tell me that Livius too was an "idiot" and that he wrote
"stupidities" ...
WolfWolf
The European
"Anastassios Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:T489b.343700$Oz4.129214@rwcrnsc54...
WolfWolf
have understood how you came to such fallacy.
Livius explains us that Scipio, after defeating the troops of Hasdrubal in the Battle
of Ilipa in 206 BC, released the Spanish prisoners who had previously surrendered.
They gathered around him and saluted him as "King", a title which he - as Roman -
could not accept. Instead he suggested them to use "Imperator" as he was called by his
Roman soldiers in consideraton of his disciplinary authority.
TITUS LIVIUS, AB URBE CONDITA, LIBER XXVII [19]:
"... Circumfusa inde multitudo Hispanorum et ante deditorum et pridie captorum regem
eum ingenti consensu appellauit. Tum Scipio silentio per praeconem facto sibi maximum
nomen imperatoris esse dixit quo se milites sui appellassent: regium nomen alibi
magnum, Romae intolerabile esse. ..."
By this way, Scipio was the first military commander who used this distinciton in
connection to a victory, but it was certainly not given to him by his own troops
hailing for his victory nor was this the original meaning of "Imperator" in military
circles.
After Scipio the title "Imperator" came into use for qualifying a military triumph.
The same like after Caesar it became a political title.
So if your discourse exhausts itself in a superficial analysis, combined with insults
to your opponents, I am very happy for not belonging to your "world".
Now you're going to tell me that Livius too was an "idiot" and that he wrote
"stupidities" ...
WolfWolf
The European
"Anastassios Retzios" <aret...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:r%79b.342168$cF.103873@rwcrnsc53...
George S. Tsapanos
>George,
>
>Bulgarians WERE occupying Macedonia at that time. We all know that. Poeple>I
am>talking about are Italina, buried , gravestones and all, at the
Heracleum,>i.e.>they are on the ground in graves. Their relatives occasionally
go to>Macedonia to>visit them. They are to the side of the cafe.>
Where those Italians are burried is not called Makedonia, it is called
FYROM-SKOPIA.
The Bulgarians occupied certain parts of Makedonia, but in FYROM-SKOPIA were
welcomed as liberators.
One day those SKOPIANS had the arches in honor of Boris-Hitler and Mussolini,
the next day they were fighting for International Communism.
George Modis wrote about those bastards and I translated and posted his story,
let me see if I can find it one more time.Here it is, read it in full screen.
G.Modis
"Astonishing and Unbelivable".
Part 1.
The Bulgarian Goverment offered in the winter of 1942 to make the great
sacrifice and dispose its Army in the whole of Makedonia under the
Germans and in such a way to release the Germans from the annoying by
the "andartes" groups.
The Germans didn't reply . They didn't want to lose the full control of
such a big area rich in chickens,eggs, meats, fresh vegetables, etc.
After all, they had already surrended vast areas to their "noncombatant
" allies of theirs, as they used to call them.
However during the last ten days of June 1943 a large meeting took
place in the German General Headquarters of Panorama (Arsakli).
Were invited all the local Commanders (Krais-Kommandant), supporting
the notion that the regular reprisals against the local population ,
were having opposite effects, because they were obligating the
population to leave towards the mountains and join the "symmorites".
(L. note, that was the characterization for the leftist guerrillas ).
Matter of fact many times the criminals were killing on purpose one or
two German soldiers in order to generate the reprisals.
It was decided that the Bulgarian Army should undertake and
strengthen the security and order.
Immediately left for Sofia the political and financial adviser of the
General Headquarters in Thessaloniki, Merhten, Captain Dr, together with
the "connection" colonel Mitkov.
The Bulgarians for unknown and unexisting military operations, were
having officers "connections" with the General Headquarters in
Thessaloniki, and in the rest of the local Headquarters, that their only
mission and business was to propagandize and fight against everything
Hellenic.
The Bulgarian goverment, requested and obtained, the whole of Makedonia
under the Germans, to be given to them and to replace the local
political authorities, no matter how weak they were, with Bulgarians.
Full control !!!
As if wasn't enough for them having Eastern Makedonia and Western
Thrace, they were asking for the rest of Makedonia all the way to the
Thessalian border.
Merhten was reporting to the General German Headquarters for the
South-Eastern Europe, having its seat in Beograd.
Because of his intervention and most likely that of the German
Goverment, the Bulgars were compelled to dispose an entire Army
Division made up from three brigades, with artillery and cavalry, in
the area between the Axios river and Strymonas, from where the Greek
Gendarmerie was suppost to withdraw.
Exception was made for the city of Thessaloniki and the three peninsulas
of Chalkidiki. It appears that the Germans were going to test the
performance of the Bulgarian army in that section.
The day when the Bulgarian Army crossed the city, Thessaloniki was
Dead. Stores, houses, everything locked-up, not a soul on the streets.
The Germans were admiring their discipline and solidity.
A rumor was circulating then, that in Petritsi on June the 12th of 1943,
saw the light, a strange accord between KKE and KKB that were
represented by the Comrades, Yiannis Ioannidis and Ducian Daskalov.
(L.note, the Communist parties of Greece and Bulgaria).
It was decided Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and M a k e d o n i a to
become Soviet Republics.
Matter of fact the borders of it, were defined.
The Bulgarian Communists , acting the opposite way than the Greek ones,
they were never forgetting the interests of their country.
Is this accord real ?
It doesn't appear fully imaginery.
After all since 1924 the KKE, had in its program the removal and
autonomy of Makedonia.
And they never renounced it publicly.
Especially during the general elections of 1926 its candidates were
giving speaches left and right in favor of the autonomy.
And even now many strange things were happening that were in accordance
with the positions of Petric.
Many, high up on the ladder of command in EAM, were openly talking about
the Soviet Makedonia, that was going to be the Peace making and on the
earth paradise
Even in Athens the sons of well to do families that were carried away by
the Communist Speaches, were supporting the notion that the only way
for peace in the Balkan peninsula , was the establishment of an
Independent Communist Makedonia.
In parallel, ELAS and EAM were accepting with open hands the
Bulgarians , that had received arms from the Germans, Italians and
Kaltsev, to fight against them !!
They never harmed any of them, while they eliminated without mercy ,
Officers, Makedonian Chieftains, and the ones having Hellenic Coscience.
They made separated battaglions from them.
And constanly they were talking about the ""SlavoMakedonian"" , nation
forgotten and beeing wronged, and its inviolable right for
self-determination.
They decided to establish SlavoMakedonian schools and prepare the
relative books.
They summoned in Triantafyllia the teachers of Florina County and they
ordered them to open SlavoMakedonian Schools.
Fortunately they offered categorical refusal, even knowing about the
immediate danger that they were facing.
That is, they were introducing an uknown till then SlavoMakedonian
Ethnic Nation that all of a sudden stood-up and was asking for its
rights.
But the Slavophones were divided since the years of the Turkish yolk in
Greeks and Bulgars, they hated each other and often they were killing
each other.
Our Slav-speaking people carried the haviest burden of the Makedonian
Struggle. They offered uncounted victims.
From them were coming most of our Chieftains.
In which way, they were fusing them now and identifying them in a
solid Ethnicity ?
One blend ?
Could be possible consider as "SlavoMakedonians" the population of
Stromnitsa that chose to burn their houses, leave behind them everything
and come as nude settlers to poor Greece, instead of staying in the
place where they were born, that was given with the Treaty of Bukurest
to Bulgaria, speaking the same language ?
Did the Communist party of France tell to the Brittons, Alsatians,
Flemish,Catalanians, Korsicans, Bascques and the rest of the French
people speaking a different language than the French, that they are not
French and that they have the right and must separate ?
But of course the shouting facts of the occupation were in exist.
The first Bulgarizing showed-up as more fanatics than ever before,
building arches, with the flags and the pictures of Mussolini, of the
Bulgarian king Boris, and Hitler, that they proclaimed him as the
""Liberator"" , and they were fighting furiously against everything
Hellenic.
If the KKE wanted to be in accord with the liberal principals, then how
come didn't they call them Bulgarians, as in reality they were till
few months or weeks ago ?
The explanation lays in the fact that during that time Tito had started
to cultivate in the Serbian Makedonia the idea of a separate Makedonian
Nationality, that became reality with the establishment of the Republic
of Skopia.
Tito acted in a very clever and patriotic way. The Bulgarians were
constituting the high majority of the population, of the so-called
Serbian-Makedonia.
With Makedonism he attemped to take them away from Bulgaria.
Matter of fact he asked for even more, he wanted to annex the
Bulgarian "Makedonia of Pirin".
And regarding the "Aegean Makedonia" he couldn't be happy unless he
was going to liberated it from the Greek yolk !
He made it pretty clear during the meeting of the masses in Skopia
11th of October 1945).
Tito had his own reasons for the building of the ""Makedonian Ethnicity
"".
But our ""Comrades"" and the ones thinking the same way as him, for
which reason they had to pull out the ""SlavoMakedonian "" Ethnicity
and what was their ultimate reason ? !
The Bulgarian Army, as Prussians of the Balkans, did not live-up to the
expectations by the Germans.
The great army division with the three brigades, never had a fight with
ELAS.
They were helping it matter of fact.
The Germans found a truck of the army division loaded with ammunitions
going towards the South, in an area where ELAS was reigning.
First of May 1944 the division received orders from the Germans, to
clear the Vertiskos area, from the units of ELAS.
The division send immediately brigades that bombardized from afar, the
villages Vertisko,Nikopolis, and Kydonies in order for the andartes that
maybe were in there to leave....................
After that ,they entered the three villages, and asked the villagers to
surrender the "Symmorites" to them.
As it was natural ,the villagers responded that in their villages they
were not living any andartes.
And the Bulgarians began to beat them, threaten , shoot them and began
looting the village.
The 10th of May 250 Bulgars on horses, campaigned against ELAS, as if
their general headquarters were in the low plains.
They surrounded Nyfopetra, and later entered in the village, the
cavalry major with non-commissioned officers and soldiers.
He went toward the school and called the teatcher Thomas Antoniou and
told him:
----- Tell us in what holes are hidind in the antartes in the village?
----- They don't exist any andartes in the village. I can assure you
about this.
----- Then just tell us where are they hiding and who are their
suppliers.
----- How could I know ? ! I am locked up in my school and I don't go
around outside the village at all.
----- Learn .
And in oder to have him learn he killed him.They killed also a refugee
from Eastern Makedonia that he was out of luck, and he was translating
with broken Bulgarian language.
After that, they burned the village and destroyed the school the local
offices of the community, 37 houses, 34 barns, 29 wheat silos.
After these trophies of Nyfopetra, the Bulgarian cavalry moved towards
Mikri- Komi. They found it empty, deserted.
The villagers after learning the facts about Nyfopetra, left the
village running.
The cavalry passed by Mikri- Komi and kept going towards Profitis.
On the road to there, they met 12 villagers from Mikri Komi running
scared towards Profitis. They killed four of them right away, and four
more from Profitis that they were working in the fields.....
They searched Profitis. And because they found no andartes they set
fire and began the knifing.
A German policeman arrived and he stopped them. In such a way they were
killed only five more villagers, with two wounded and the offices of the
community bunred down, ten big houses, fifteen wheat silos, and half of
a church........
The Germans requested on January of 1944 the help of the Bulgarian
Army, for the expulsion of ELAS from the areas next to the border,
Almopia and Florina.
The Bulgarian Army arrived loaded with fighting madness.
And yet, they didn't deign losing their time with ELAS.
They were limited in eliminating, with supervision from Kommitatzides,
our villagers, 22 in Chamilo, 7 in Dogani, 2 in Arhaggelo and Lagkadia,
and 42 in Notia.
However the Germans intervened and asked them to return immediately to
their camps.
In the area of Florina the German supervision was more systematic and
because of that, the supreme fighters of the andartes, were unable to
cut in pieces others, than the poor villagers of Flampouron.
They had a larger program to "clean" everybody, but especially the
Graekomans.
On his part ELAS kept a ""faultless position"" against the Bulgarians.
They didn't even bothered them.
In the deep woods in Cholomonta in Chalkidiki a Bulgarian unit had
entered. The villagers told the Chieftains the places from where they
could cross, in order to suprise and destroy the Bulgarians.
However they refused.
Matter of fact it was reported that they said :
""We don't have the guns for the Germans and the Bulgarians but for
the Greek traitors"".
The representatives of the KKE in Eastern Makedonia, began flirting
again with the Bulgarians.
They never learned anything from what happened to them on September of
1941, when like puppies were fooled around by Bulgarian
Pseudo-Communists and they participated in a fake- attempt, that
thousand of victims had to pay with their lives from Drama and its
surrounding area.!
They came to the point to sign an alliance with the Bulgarian Army, and
the Bulgarian Authorities as soon as Bulgaria turned around 180 degrees,
and with the government under Kimon Georghiev, leftist but not fully
Communist, they declared the war against the ""allied"" Germany.
The Germans, very rightfull were punished for all the monstrosities
that they allowed to take place, by the Bulgarians in the Eastern
Makedonia and Western Thrace.
They had protected and reinforced the Bulgarian propaganda, by any
means, in the Makedonian lands under them, thanks to the Bulgarian ""
connections"" officers in the local headquarters .
The retreat of the Bulgarian Army, that had already began, came to a
stop.
The leftist goverment of Kimon Georghiev was proving its self more
imperialistic from the previous one.
It appears, that most likely it was expecting, to be established, with
the intervention of the Russian, Tito -"Makedonians" partizans, the
Soviet Republic Of the Unified Makedonia, and in such case the Bulgarian
Army from the Eastern Makedonia, was to be proved very usefull.
The newspaper of the goverment ""Sloboda"" ( Freedom ), of Sofia, wrote
in its paper of September 17th :
""Bulgaria restored the freedoms of the Aegean populations. ( Was in
Eastern Makedonia any other people ?................)
The local organization of EAM is assuming full command.
The Bulgarian Army remains for the serving of the people and that of
the new administration"".!!!!!
After that descrives the journey in Eastern Makedonia and Western Thrace
of the two Bulgarian ministers, and the joy and enthusiasm of the
""liberated"" people.
They re-assured everyone with a proclamation, that the Bulgarian Army
was remaining in their positions in order to guard and protect them and
EAM.
In Kavalla went the two ministers Terbeshov and Neikov, having next to
them fraternizing Bulgarian soldiers and ELAS-people, and they
delivered --in an official ceremony-- the power to the representatives
of the EAM !!!!!
Patrols made-up, by both Bulgarians and ELAS-people were keeping an eye
for the security and order........................!
Where from, someone wonders, they found the right the two ministers and
their goverment, to intervene in the interior questions of another
state, and to appoint their governors and their authorities ?
Just because they double-crossed the Germans, ex-allies of theirs, they
went above the International Law ?
They entered in Drama on September the 13th, Bulgarians and ELASitian
officers on a Bulgarian car.
Next day showed up embraced, 40 ELASitians and 36 Bulgarian
""Partizans"" with their leaders Floros Doumpis, and Radeff.
Out of which hole did they come out the latest ones ?
From Bulgaria for sure or from the so-called Serbian-Makedonia.
ELASitians and Bulgarians, male and female Partizans brought
the ............freedom in both Serres and Sidirokastro.
In order to reinforce ELAS they were enlisting in it.
Bulgarian partizans and Bulgarian soldiers and gendarmes with great
action against the Hellenian population !........
Even with all the reinforces from the Bulgarians and few more with
people from the Makedonia under the Germans, the total numbers of the
ELAS men did not increase more then 1000-1200.
The poopulation was hating them.
The martyr population of Eastern Makedonia, was facing now from the
ranks of EAM, the same people that for three and a half years were
over-torturing them, over-robing them, and killing them with knifes, to
present themselves as protectors and liberators !!!
But in the mountains of Eastern Makedonia, and especially in the
mountains of Drama and Rodopi, were existing large nationalistic units,
that had fought winning battles " in array" against the Bulgarian
army, had entered many times inside the Bulgarian territory, for ""
provisioning"", that means taking away animals and grains.
The commanders were English officers, and the General Allied
Headquarters from the Middle East, was feeding and suppling them using
airplanes.
It appears that it was studing those days a landing in those areas.
Unit 133 by its self had in its ranks 2000 and more tough warriors.
They could very easily destroy completely EAM-Communism.
These "" slaves of the Englishmen"" tough warriors were constituting an
insuperable obstacle, for the plans of EAM-ELAS.
And they did everything possible for its destruction.
The Bulgarians, with their proven, during the last for years
Philhellenism, offered very gracefully their help.
On September the 13th a nationalistic unit seized on the bridge of
Toxotes, 18 Bulgarian cars with 180 passengers, public workers and
policemen from Kavalla where they had indulged themselves in any kind of
orgies.
Also Chieftain Vaggelis, with the units of Kotza-Orman, took as
prisoners a Bulgarian platoon from the fortifications of Kalomeni, and
requested with an ultimatum, to have the guard of Karamoti , made up by
a brigade and eight canons, to surrend to him.
Loaded with religious indignation against these .........traitors, EAM
attacked with one company made up by.....70 men, two Bulgarian army
brigades , one company of artillery, one mortar-company, one troop of
cavalry, and succeeded in freeing the Bulgarian prisoners......
The English Major Miller, came in contact with the commanding officer of
the Bulgarian Army Corps, in order to have the Nationalistic units,
come down from the mountains to keep order in the areas around Drama.
The relative agreement was signed by the Bulgarian Commanding Officer,
and by Sfetsos then a lieutenant colonel, and the chieftain Antonios
Fosteridis.
Miller also agreed with the Commanding Officer, not to bother the units
under Major Spyridis coming from Nigrita to Drama.
He send Major Koutridis to pass the order to Spiridis.
The last one crossed the Strymona river and was going toward Drama,
pretty sure that he had nothing to be afraid of the Bulgarians.
He had receive reinforcements during the last days from Thessaloniki
of many superior and lower class officers.
However During the night of September the 21st, a great number of
Bulgarians attacked suddenly the free from care men of Spiridis, and
took as prisoners many officers.
The Bulgarians, great warriors, took care of them.
They delivered them to the EAM of Serres, that cut them in pieces.
Among the victims was the colonel Ioannis Papapetrou, who's father, the
priest of the village Xyno-Nero in Florina, was burned inside a hole
full with asbestos by the Kommitatzides.
In the morning of September the 23th Major Miller observed a large
movement of Bulgarian cars loaded with Bulgarian troops and ELASitians.
In order to avoid a direct confrontation and bloodshed he intervened.
Why couldn't come into some kind of agreement the two opposite sides?
What was dividing them ?
In few days will arrive in Greece the Ecumenical Goverment under
Papandreou.
In any way the ELASitians should not forget that the Nationalistic
forces are taking orders from the General Allied Headquarter of the
Middle East.
EAMites and ELASitians it appeared that they were very willing for a
compromise.
Colonel Avdelas went with an English car to meet them.
With him he had an English officer, a translator and a private.
The ""Comrades" though were able to isolate the English officer under
the excuse that something had happened to their car.
They took Avdelas and the other two.
They never showed up alive again .............!!!
Many Bulgarians and ELASitians met in the morning of September the
24th in the village of St. Athanasios in the area of Drama.
And all of a sudden they began a barrage with Bulgarian shells against
the brigade of the 133 unit, that was in the village Ydromilos.
The brigade was forced to retreat in the village of Krinides.
They followed it in there and they encircled the village of Krinides.
Even with all the raining of the Bulgarian shells and mortars, the men
of the brigade, men smoked with gun powder, were able to repulse all the
attacks during the 25th of September.
So the ELASitians, thought of something else, something that even a
story teller with large immagination couldn't have thought.
One company ( wasn't even a company ), with commander the reservist
Ioannis Vafeiadis, dissimulated that they were throwing away their
arms, and began shouting:
"We are not fighting no more brothers against brothers.
If they wish only the leaders could keep fighting.""
Everybody was surprised.
The fighting, the shooting came to an end.
More voices were heard from other ELASitians:
""Reconciliation......Reconciliation"".
The two opponents reach each other.
They began coming to an understanding.
Career Captain Konstandaras commander of the 26th regiment of ELAS,
who was taken prisoner began cutting in pieces his clothes and he was
yelling his lungs out in favor of peace.
He offered to go himself and convince the leaders of ELAS-EAM.
He signed a declaration ""In the name of my military honor"" that he
would come back in the prison if the compromise was not to be reached.
He went with Major I.Papathanasiou to that meeting.
Somehow he forgot his promise , on his military honor, he didn't come
back, plus he kept I. Pappathanasiou.!!!
Fortunately they didn't kill him.
He was taken prisoner also the sublieutenant Amesinopoulos that went to
Vafeiadis.......
Few ELASitians asked for permission to enter in the village to have
water.
They were thirsty. After them came in more Bulgarians. Many moved into
the houses of the village.
The brigade was pretty sure that finally reconciliation was in effect,
and they didn't pay too much attention .
And all of a sudden began a barrage of shells and mortars by the heavy
artillery that in the mean time has been moved !!
At the same time began shooting from behind the ELASitians and the
Bulgarians that had moved into the houses.
That night the brigate was forced to move into the village of
Vounochori.
No one can accuse the people of EAM-ELAS as of not having immagination
and the ability of laying marvelous plans..............
Major Miller even with his English rigidity, was convinced by now that
the Bulgarian Commander had deceived him and that he was attempting to
destroy his units, that left the mountains and moved into the plains.
He ordered the 26th regiment to retreat from Koudounia to its
mountainous dens.
The regiment complied.
However on its way to the mountains they noticed that many Bulgarians
and few ELASitians had taken Mikrochori and had cut off the road to the
mountains.
So they decided to go towards the Paggaion mountain.
In the morning of September the 27th they received informations that
Bulgarian and ELASitians troops were attacking Nationalistic units in
Mpafra, Tserepiani, and Kormista, they run immediately, attacked the
enemy from behind and they obligated him to run with most of its troops
toward the Paggaion mountain ..
They went after them in there too , causing heavy losses.
The Bulgarians brought many reinforcements and so the regiment retreated
in the dens of Sipsis.
They run out of ammunitions.
Bulgarians and ELASitians didn't stop their attacks against the Allied
133 unit.
They attacked those units under Chieftain Antonios Fosteridis , in the
area of Peristeria ( Demertzoyianni) , and against the units of
Chieftain Pantelis in the areas of Prosotsani, Pleina.
Finally all the units of the 133 retreated into the old positions in the
mountains of Tsal-Dag, in the passes of Korbyla and the areas of
Stavroupolis.
ELAS was reigning finally in the plains of Drama.
But they wanted to reign in the mountains too, with the eager assistance
and help of the numerous Bulgarian Army.
On October the 2nd , a four day battle began with the Drakopoulos
brigade in the areas of Stavroupolis, that on the 6th of October
retreated to Rodopi after finishing all of its ammunitions.
The heavy artillery also moved into the mountains in the passes of
Korbyla in order to fight from the sides against the units of Tsal-Dag.
Major Papageorgiou moved on October the 5th towards Lekani, dispersing
the " two company" of ELAS, cutting the Communications between the
EAMO-Bulgarians and Kavalla, and next day destroyed the Bulgarians and
the ELASitians by the village of Kechrokampos, taking prisoners many of
them.
The battles continued next day also in the mountains having as main
opposition and leading star the Bulgarian Army.
This Army however after orders from the Bulgarian Goverment, began its
retreat back to Bulgaria.
EAM-ELAS became an orphan.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
George S. Tsapanos
>George,
>
>Bulgarians WERE occupying Macedonia at that time. >
And if you or anyone else wish to read more of George Modis' stories, here a
place to go.
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&oe=ISO-8859-1&q=ge
orge+modis&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
George S. Tsapanos
>
>>George,
>>
>>Bulgarians WERE occupying Macedonia at that time. We all know that. >>
Here Galina, special for you, as it was originally posted, to be viewed in full
screen.
And here it is maybe for the second time, but is becoming more and more
indicative about how and when the Bulgars lost for ever Makedonia. Special for
you Radeff, Daniel and Slavko.
Subject: FR: LYNGOS RE: REVERSAL OF ROLES
From: lyn...@aol.com (LYNGOS 2)
Date: 1/13/98 10:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <19980114062...@ladder02.news.aol.com>
Today's fifth story by George MODIS, is the one with the particular title
<<Reversal of roles>>.
In this story, taking place on April of 1941, one can learn about the
language,of our places those days,about the abuse by the Bulgars of the local
population, their collaboration with the NAZI Germans and the fate of certain
of them .The names are real the situations are real everything is real.For the
ones of you who are reading for the first time those powerfull stories from
Makedonia,they might serve as an eye opener of the realities of that-our-mine
land.At the same time you can see and maybe understand the reason (s) for the
perpetuation of hate till today .Enjoy it ,and again I have to apologize about
the mistakes of the translation which usually is done in the middle of the
night .
REVERSAL OF ROLES
-----<<DOBRO UTRO>> ( Good morning) Vana,said Lampros to the girl,passing in
front of their house,with her head down and a large handkerchief around it.
He added in the Bulgaromakedonian dialect: <<You don't feel like
answering back >>?
------<<Good morning>>,she answered,without raising her head or stop walking.
She came back sometime later going toward the opposite direction.On top
of her head she was holding a pitta made for a sick old aunt of hers.
Lampros kept standing in front of the door and he was playing with a stick.Two
Bulgarian flags were hanging from two windows and a small arch with pictures of
Hitler and Mussolini and the picture of Czar of Bulgaria Boris was set-up
proudly and challenging next to the door.
He told her always speaking the local Bulgaromakedonian dialect:
------Eh Vana,still are you going to think in such a way ?
-----And which way do you wish me to think,poor Lampro? She answered to him
speaking in Greek.
------My name is Lampo and not Lampro.
------And mine is Yiannoula and not Vana.
------Don't you see it Vana or Yiannoula that Greece died a dog's death and
Bulgaria is coming in here ?
------If you are so sure that Bulgaria is coming,then why did you destroyed the
school,the village's office,the police station?!
------They were talking,her in Greek, him in the Bulgaromakedonian.
-----We are going to re-build them better.Greece anyway died a dog's death,and
they burried her with seven priests,seven meters deep.Put it down your emty
head.
-----Greece did give lots to you.We remained with the land of the grand-father
she said ,taking the pitta from the head to the waist.
The agriculture-colonization office gave the same amount of lots to the locals
as to the refugees.And because Lampro's family had very few land of their own
they received a whole three lots of Turkish land.
------And how Greece got that land ? Did she bring it here from her dry islands
?!
------It was Turkish land.Wasn't yours.And you were going to be unable to buy
them.Later your best man became the prefect TSAXSIRAS or TSAXSIR PASHA,as they
call him now.And you were an officer of EON.Don't forget about it.
------We knew how to fool the smart-playing Greeks.We are not stupid.
------You are with a mask,that means buffons.
------You are insulting us in addition ,you dirty Graikoman,he answered
speaking in Greek himself now.Today,tomorrow is coming in here the Bulgarian
army and all the Greeks and Graikomans will leave for Greece to fill their
stomach with raisins and rocks.And each family is not going to be allowed to
carry with them more then thirty okades.Do you listen to me ?
------Thank you for the information.
And she left.
They were the last days of the terrible April of 1941.The German tanks had
leveled the whole of Greece.The Bulgars had arrived to Monastiri which was
near.Bulgarian soldiers were standing guards on the train line.All the
authorities had left.Even the teachers received order to leave for Kastoria and
Kozani,as if the Germans were released to stop at Florina!.....As only
representative of the Greek state remained the major N.XASOS who had organize
animprovised national-guard.The agents of the Bulgarian KOMITATO were on the
loose, to divulge and assure that today- tomorrow the Bulgarian army were going
to occupy the German-occupied Greek Makedonia.They exploited also the secret
archives of the Gendarmery,that were left alone and un-protected because not a
match was found to set them on fire.
And many opportunists in order to obtain Bulgarian prices and offices or
forgiveness papers for their actions so far,set-up arches with the flags and
the pictures of Hitler,Mussolini,of Boris,they hang Bulgarian flags on their
houses and they proclaimed Hitler as the liberator! etc.etc.
Yiannoula and Lampros were neighbors,same age, were taking the same
class in the school and they were sitting in the same bench.Both had a
wish.Yiannoula wanted to go to high-school and study and become a doctor,like a
microbiologist in the Florina hospital.But her father never let her.
For Lampro an uncle from Sofia without children asked him to go and
study.But his father didn't let him go because he didn't wanted to expose
himself to the Greek authorities.
When they were going to shool they were calling them the <<couple>> the
<<fitting couple>>.They were the best students.They also kept a friendship
which was erotic without realizing it.They would like to get married.But
Yiannoula's father couldn't have as in-laws the KOSMANIDES who during the years
under the Turks,they were Fanatic Bulgarians.Instead he gave her to be married
to Phillip,a good boy from old GREEK family,a year older thanher.
He was taken for his military service and was sent with other G.I's in
Peloponnisos for basic training .Some were saying that had transfered them to
Krete.
Lampros was engaged to be married with somebody from a different part of
the village,less beautifull and no smart at all.But Lampros and Yiannoula kept
the old friendly relations and kept teasing each other.
Lampros was going around with an automatic rifle on his back.The agents
of the Komitato took care to collect the guns from the fighting places around
the passes of KLEIDION and to carry them in Monastiri as spoils of the
Yugoslavian army,that has been dissolved without any glory. The Germans made it
pretty clear that they were going to execute everybody that was going to hide
a side by side shotgun or a small pirtol.But they were closingtheir eyes when
they were seeing rifles and automatic guns in the hands of the fresh Bulgarian
<<allies>>.
One day Yiannoula told him:
------Against whom are you going to fight with that gun that you have Lampro ?
-------Whom ?..............GREECE.............THE GREEKS.
Now they were both talking in Greek,like other times.
------But you said that Greece died a dog's death and they burried her seven
meters deep with seven priests.There is war going now against RUSSIA.How come
you are not going in there to fight ?
------AH ! RUSSIA........RUSSIA is our friend.
------But you are allies with the Germans without a fight.Germany now is
fighting against Russia.Then HOW come are you friends with Russia ?!
------- Us.........That's ..........How we are.........We have double entry.
Lampros was repeating what was hearing from the agents of the Komitato and
from KALTSEF,the Bulgarian officer <<connection>> with the German garrison,
which were trying to relax them and encourage them.
Finally authorities were placed in Florina and few gendarmes in the
villages.
The court of misdemeanors gave Lampros two months in jail because he went armed
and plowed-under a field already planted belonging to a refugee, but according
to him belonging to his father thru a private contract that his father has done
in 1923 when the Turks were leaving.! But two weeks later visited the jail the
German commander with KALTSEF and they released him,together with few others
like him .
Yiannoula told him:
--------Eh you ,Lampro ,Greece died a dog's death as you said. But then how
come put you in jail ?!
-------But did you see ?! KALTSEF run and took me out of it.
-------Let's see later on, if he is going to be able to save your head.*
* Kaltsef, a reserve- lieutenant-officer of the Bulgarian army, speaking
German and <<connection>> of the German garrison of Florina,was executed in
1945 with a decision of the High Court for the Accountables and Criminals of
War in Thessaloniki.
America entered the war.
--------I'll tell you something Lampro,Yiannoula told him.Our people took the
decision to send you to Bulgaria with only ten okades on your back per family.
They kept fighting the two young ones in Greek now.
------Oh you ,we are going to send you away.Can't you see that the Germans now
run over the Russians,and took millions of prisoners ?
-------Russia is endless as we were seing in the map in school.And now the
Americans entered the war;
-------Ah ! The Americans...........Pouf.......The only thing they have is
dollars.The GIapanese people are going to destroy them .
-------Don't you ask better your uncle about how America is,he was living
there.
-------He was the one who told me about it. The Americans are not made for
war.Anyway ourselves we are in good relations with both,Germany and Russia.
-------Smart buffones that you are.
They had arrived a bunch of officers from the Bulgarian staff,to make war
plans against windmills,sound like. A lieutenant-colonel and two majors arrived
in the village with a car.They saw Yiannoula ,who was standing in front of the
door and they greeted her.She greeted them back the way she was ,willing and
polite. The lieutenant-colonel who was from SKOPIA and was speaking the local
dialect,asked her how was life ,if they are all-right,etc.
Yiannoula invite them to enter in the house to take a look and have a
coffee. The lieutenant-colonel entering the house said in German to one of the
majors,who most likely was from the OLD-Bulgaria.
------You see how good Bulgars are and how willing are the people in here ?
The father made faces as soon as he saw them from the window and he went
to a side small room. Yiannoula close her eye to him. Her mother came out to
give them the welcome. She grab their hands and told them : <<Welcome ....are
you O.K.? How are your children and your wifes?>>. They placed them in the
<<good>> room. Her mother went to make the coffees.
-------Our house is poor.A village's house,Yiannoula said.
------Ourselves are from villages. But your house is very good and nice,said
the lieutenant-colonel.
They were bidding in compliments the other ones too. A major said in
German:
-------Houses like this are the exceptions even in our villages.
Matter of fact it was a two story house,big and nice.They had built it a
few years back,with money that an uncle of hers who died ,brought from America.
It was well furnished the <<good>> room too. Yiannoula told them:
------Ax! We suffered a lot.And now we had war.
-------We know.You have suffered a lot ,you ,here........Those Greeks are
unbearable tyrrants. But things are going to be O.K. now. Big Bulgaria like
rightfull mother,is going to look after you with affection,and is going to pay
you back for the damages.
-------But could be done it ? Is she going to have the time ?
-------Be assured.The Bulgarian border will go much farther down.
Their eyes fell toward the picture of a priest.They asked:
-------Who is this clergyman ?
-------An uncle of ours,the priest of the village.And they killed him.
-------Who ? The Greeks ?
-------No. The KOMITATZIDES !.............
The three of them look at each other.One major pointed to some pictures in
the end of the room . Were representing GREEK ANTARTES. They jumped -up in the
air all three of them and started to leave.
-------Wait Yiannoula told them.Coffees will be done.Why are you leaving?
--------NO. NO. We are leaving.
-------As you wish. You did realize that we are not ALL Bulgars ,as some
buffons are telling you.
The village learned about what took place.Our people run to congratulate
Yiannoula. But Lampros told her :
------It was not right what you did. With your Graikomanian head something is
going to happen to you.KALTSEF and the German Commander are very upset at you.
-------Why ? Because I accepted to take care of them and offered them a coffee
?!
------My self told to Kaltsef. It was the officer's mistake that entered a home
without knowing what kind of a home it was.
Suddenly in the village Phillip showed-up. He was hit really badly in the
foot during the battle of CRETE. The people from Crete took good care of him.
Somebody from LAKKOUS who was ANTARTIS kept him for many months in his
house,while sick.
He was limping still lightly.
It was wedding day.Lampros got married. But the skirmishers were
continuing.
-------ANTARTES came out.The KASTORIA mountains are full of them .Do you know
it ?
-------We know it.
------And where are you going to hide ?
-------Us ?! Xa ......Xa........From those Gyftous ? They are all COMMUNISTS.
-------Do you know what i say Lampro ? To go and kiss the hand of our priest
and that of the Prefect and declare repentance.
--------Oh you, we are going to eliminate them. Kaltsef said that now we are
going to have plenty chances to clear things with the Graikomans. So ,be
carefull.
Matter of fact few weeks later Lampros showed up with few more men, fully
armed and dressed with special uniforms.
Together with the Germans they took an expedition on top of VITSI to
<<destroy>> the ANTARTES.
But one night the ANTARTES came into the village.They talked about
freedom and democracy,for harmony and collaboration. They took supplies and
left. But they came back, much worse. They rang the bell and called everybody
in the center of the village. Two of them talked <<about freedom >> and for the
<< struggle against the conqueror>>. The leader stood-up last and with his
strong voice started crowing:
-------Listen brothers.Now we are all one,Greeks,Makedonians,Vlachs,Albanians.
We are going to fight all ,hand by hand for our freedom,for a new better world.
Like in ILINTEN.We are going to make a new ILINTEN*.
* Note: ILINTEN,the Bulgarian revolt of 1903.
As soon as they returned at home the old man said:
-------Were those ugly faces ,Greek ANTARTES ?! Did you hear that ?! They are
going to have a new ILINTEN !
-------And who are the Vlachs and the Albanians ?! said the oldest son. They
are our villages who speak VLACHIKA and ARVANITIKA; Aren't GREEK ?
-------And <<Makedonians>> who are they ? added the youngest son.He never
mentioned the BULGARS. That means that <<MAKEDONIANS>> are the BULGARS!......
-------God protect us children ! said the old man making the sign of the cross.
Next day the Germans came ,and the old man and few others found
themselves,all of them <<Graikomans>>,in the camp of PAYLOU MELA in
Thessaloniki,while few more Graikomans together with the older son found
themselves in Germany as workers of the fighting machine.
The Antartes were multiplying and they were coming more often in the
village. They didn't care about the Germans and their reprisals.
Now they were talking clearly for a new, more just world, without
exploiters and capitalists,and they were claiming the Communistic Russia as
Holy mother.
They never bothered any of the new baptized Bulgars with their arches and the
pictures of Hitler and Mussolini,or the families of the ones who took the arms
against them. But still were able to take many on their side with their slogans
of the struggle for freedom.
But the big surprise took place one night when Lampros and his company
showed up with the Antartes.!!!!!!Yiannoula took him on the side and asked him:
-------With the Antartes, you too, who took the arms from the Germans and the
KALTSEF in order to <<eliminate >>them ?!!
-------Now we are allies.
-------And you are going to fight against the Czar Boris,and Hitler the
liberator ?!!!!!
-------Times turned like this.
------Collaborators and companions in the arms with EAM and ELAS ?
------We have our own EAM,the SNOF and our own ELAS the <<Makedonian>>
battalion.
------Now you became <<MAKEDONIANS>> ?!!!!!! What are you anyway ?!!!!!!!!!
-------I told you we are not stupid.
Another night the Antartes took with them in the <<Free Greece>> in order
to make officers out of them of the ELAS ,PHILLIP the younger brother of
Yiannoula and two of her cousins.But everybody knew that were going to burry
them in some canyon .
And the carnage was verified by the testimonies of eyewitnesses. Yiannoula
was inconsolable,crying constanly,and locked herself in the house.Lampros went,
in order to comfort her.He told her:
-------I swear Yiannoula.In the name of God,in the name of my dead mother.I did
try.I did a lot to save them.I told them: They are good Greeks.Fanatic
Graikomans.They never got near the Germans and KALTSEF.They destroyed the
arches with the flags and the pictures of Hitler and Mussolini.But in vain.
The <<KAPETANIOS >> of the Division said:
-------They are enemies of the people.Traitors of the nation .
Anastassios Retzios
convinced by the most eminent historians of Rome of our times, there
is nothing that I can do for you. My man, you are thick.
As for Caesar using the title "Imperator" as a political title, the
only thing that I have to say is.....what, I am speechless. This is
the most stupid statement I have heard. I have refered you to
Suetonius but this was not adequate I guess.
Listen...you are a damn ass with big ears, OK. If you want to
subscribe to you notion of history be my guest. There is no reason to
debate these outlandish claims with me and I have, indeed, better
things to do with my life.
ADR
"WolfWolf" <myn...@email.net> wrote in message news:<bk3av4$75f$2...@ngspool-d02.news.aol.com>...
Anastassios Retzios
You idiot, you idiot. Stobi was a military outpost built by Philip V
after his campaigns against the Illyrians and Dardanians. It was a
minor post to protect the rest of Macedonia for their incursions. Do
me a favor and read Mommsen's work on the provinces of the Roman
Empire.
Are you connected with anything? You are referring to the Achaean
League you fool, not to Achaea the area!!! Oh boy, you are really out
there.
Just let me get this straight: the father of "modern" Macedonia is F.
Bianconi because he drew a map that included Skopje in it, right? Do
I have you right?
And what does this have to do with the blooper above???
Listen, any further discussion with you on any historical matters will
only result in my blood pressure going up because I have really hard
time dealing with fools. I just do not suffer fools well.
Have a nice day.
ADR
WolfWolf
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.03091...@posting.google.com...
> Listen, enough of this idiotic discussion. If you are not going to be
> convinced by the most eminent historians of Rome of our times, there
> is nothing that I can do for you. My man, you are thick.
Look, Tassos, everybody can read some lines in a book, quote it and say. "Hey, I'am
historian"!
It's the context that matters, and I have NEVER seen any serious scientific approach
of Roman history without going through Latin language first.
I read "De Bello Gallico" when I was 12 years old. The original version, in Latin.
> As for Caesar using the title "Imperator" as a political title, the
> only thing that I have to say is.....what, I am speechless. This is
> the most stupid statement I have heard. I have refered you to
> Suetonius but this was not adequate I guess.
Yes, and YOU said that there was no coin of Julius Caesar with "IMP", and I prove you
wrong.
Since then you're speechless ...
>
> Listen...you are a damn ass with big ears, OK.
Here we go ... the usual insult, which I was already missing.
> If you want to
> subscribe to you notion of history be my guest. There is no reason to
> debate these outlandish claims with me and I have, indeed, better
> things to do with my life.
OK, Tassos, then go ahead - and leave history to those who understand.
WolfWolf
The European
WolfWolf
"Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4f2b5361.03091...@posting.google.com...
Thanks, Thanks, Tassos, Tassos
> Stobi was a military outpost built by Philip V
> after his campaigns against the Illyrians and Dardanians.
And it might have existed already earlier, but as a classical town (municipium) it is
known since 197 BC, and in the 5th century it became capital of Macedonia Secunda.
Are you denying that, Tassos?
Do you mean that the Vardar axis did *not* belong to ancient Macedonia?!?
> > was sacked and destroyed, the Achaean league was dissolved, and Greece, under the
name
> > of Achea, was made a province and placed under the control of the governor of
> > Macedonia.
>
>
> Are you connected with anything? You are referring to the Achaean
> League you fool, not to Achaea the area!!! Oh boy, you are really out
> there.
What I mean by "Achaean League" (and what every decent encyclopedia wil show you) is
the confederation of towns of Achaea, an area in the northern Peloponnese of ancient
Greece.
Well, if you take the midwife as mother of the child and the registrar as its father,
you might come to such conclusions.
Historians and authors of maps describe a given situation, or state of affaires, like
a notary public.
How does it happen to you that Bianconi was the "creator"?!?
Of course, you *had* to make a comment of that style, since you couldn't associate him
with Tito ...
You said that "Ius Italicum" was defunct at 100 AD.
I showed you that it was not.
Same story like with your statement that the title "Imperator" of the Roman emperors
became increasingly unimportant, which again was totally wrong.
You should not deal with fools, Tassos, you should deal with history.
It would decrease your blood pressure and improve your understanding.
WolfWolf
The European
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
> Where those Italians are burried is not called Makedonia, it is called
> FYROM-SKOPIA.
> The Bulgarians occupied certain parts of Makedonia, but in FYROM-SKOPIA were
> welcomed as liberators.
Only Bulgarians think that fascist troops that took over Macedonia, killed numerous
Macedonians, collected and sent Jewish Macedonians to Treblinka and spread fascist
terror during their occupation were welcomed or liberating. Bulgarian fascists
enslaved Macedonia no differently than Serbian captors enslaved and captured
Macedonia during the previous period
>
> One day those SKOPIANS had the arches in honor of Boris-Hitler and Mussolini,
> the next day they were fighting for International Communism.
No Skopjan ever put up any fascist monument.
It's overly long (stick to one topic at a time) but basically a lot of the history
above had littlel to do with Macedonians except as victims or partisans, and a lot
to do with Bulgarians and others,.
++
While you are paying extreme prices to belong to the loser netservice AoHell, why not take all your translations, clean them up and put them on a webpage. Aol gives you free webpages
George S. Tsapanos
>While you are paying extreme prices to belong to the loser netservice AoHell,
>why not take all your translations, clean them up and put them on a webpage.
>Aol gives you free webpages>
Dear Galina
I am afraid you do not understand Modis' style. Modis is writing in his own
style making it difficult even for Greeks to understand him since his writings
were intended for the people of Western Makedonia.
Modis' style is asking you to THINK in order to UNDERSTAND what he is trying to
tell you.
And that was my most difficult problem in his tyranslations, how could I have
it done the SAME way as he was doing do it.
I can polish my Greek to English translations, but then.........they would be
not Modis' writings, matter of fact Panayiota "polished" one of them for me,
but it was not the same, Modis' style had gone.
There is something else, in many of his stories Modis involves the local
Slavo-Bulgar idiom which he calls and defines it by various names, not always
the same. Something even more difficult, Modis at times was writing as if ALL
of his readers already KNEW the history of the land and the sequence of the
facts, and in that sense he at times fails purposely to EXPLAIN certain
situations, situations which he believes should be known by many if not
all.................
George S. Tsapanos
>Only Bulgarians think that fascist troops that took over Macedonia,
killed>numerous>Macedonians, collected and sent Jewish Macedonians to Treblinka
and spread>fascist>terror during their occupation were welcomed or liberating.
Bulgarian>fascists>enslaved Macedonia no differently than Serbian captors
enslaved and captured>Macedonia during the previous period>
And what became of those Fascist Bulgarians and SKOPIANS running up and down
Makedonia killing our peasants and taking their animals and their crop?
Overnight they became Tito's and Dimitrov's Communists fighting first for an
Independent "Makedonia" within the frame of the Yugoslav Popular Republics and
as soon as Tito was denounced by International Communism, fighting for an
"Autonomkous Makedonia" within Stalin's Popular Republics.
It is SAD to say the least that some of our people brainwashed by Communism,
not only they supported its expancion and tied up their fortunes with its
future, but also TODAY they keep DEFENDING their position(s).
Who knows how many pictures of Tito have come down from the Pelagonian houses,
because those SKOPIAN houses were and are SLAV houses.
>No Skopjan ever put up any fascist monument.>
Since most of the SKOPIANS until 1944 were BULGARS, many SKOPIANS raised archs
and monuments to Hitler, Mussolini and King Boris of Bulgaria.
Do you wish to re-write history? Bring your evidences, KALTSEFF and OHRANA are
still hated in the flats of Florina and those Pelagonian ones.
Do you wish me to post the names of MAKEDONIANS executed by those BULGARIANS
from SKOPIA and SOFIA?
Ilinden
bre drvo Vlashko.
Ilinden
Anastassios Retzios
> > You idiot, you idiot.
>
> Thanks, Thanks, Tassos, Tassos
>
> > Stobi was a military outpost built by Philip V
> > after his campaigns against the Illyrians and Dardanians.
>
> And it might have existed already earlier, but as a classical town (municipium) it is
> known since 197 BC, and in the 5th century it became capital of Macedonia Secunda.
No, it did not exist earlier. It was built by Philip V in 197 BC in
Paeonia in order to ward off Dardanian attacks. It marked the most
northern post of the Macedonian state ever but it was not located
within Macedonia proper (which ended about 10 miles to the North of
Gevgelija). It was located in Paeonia which by the time of Philip V
had been overwhelmed by the Dardanians and the Illyrians who then used
the area to press attacks on Macedonia proper. Philip V had to push
back and he build this colony in "hostile" land to act as a forward
defense post.
The fact that the Romans created various administrative provinces
hardly bears a relation to where one would demarkate Macedonia today
-or at any time, for that matter-. So, if Stobi became capital of
Macedonia Secunda, it had as much of a relationship to Macedonia as
any other military colony founded by Alexander of the Successors from
Asia Minor to Afganistan.
> Are you denying that, Tassos?
> Do you mean that the Vardar axis did *not* belong to ancient Macedonia?!?
I do not know what you mean by the Vardar axis. If you mean the upper
Vardar valley that is today within FYROM, yes, this never belonged to
Macedonia. It was typically in the kingdom of Paeonia. The Paeonian
kings fell under the control of Macedonia under Philip II and
Alexander III, but they were independent again by the time of
Kassander (as Kassander had to negotiate with them). Eventually, the
Paeonians were occupied by the Dardarians which forced the
intervention of Philip V. As to where the kingdom of Paeonia lies, I
am sure that you can search the web and verify what I have posted,
right?
> >
> > Are you connected with anything? You are referring to the Achaean
> > League you fool, not to Achaea the area!!! Oh boy, you are really out
> > there.
>
> What I mean by "Achaean League" (and what every decent encyclopedia wil show you) is
> the confederation of towns of Achaea, an area in the northern Peloponnese of ancient
> Greece.
OK, so...what's then your explanation as to why the Romans extended
the term Achaea to the whole of Southern Greece which included Sparta,
the Achaean League, the Aetolian League, Attica and Athens, Boaetia
and Thebes, Chalkis, Corinth and a variety of other areas and towns
including numerous islands?
Since Thessaly has always been part of the Province of Macedonia,
should we extend the term "Macedonia" to Thessaly as well? Since
Thrace spent some time within the Macedonian kingdom should we include
the whole of Bulgaria today within "Macedonia"?
> >
> > Just let me get this straight: the father of "modern" Macedonia is F.
> > Bianconi because he drew a map that included Skopje in it, right? Do
> > I have you right?
>
> Well, if you take the midwife as mother of the child and the registrar as its father,
> you might come to such conclusions.
> Historians and authors of maps describe a given situation, or state of affaires, like
> a notary public.
> How does it happen to you that Bianconi was the "creator"?!?
> Of course, you *had* to make a comment of that style, since you couldn't associate him
> with Tito ...
Bullshit. You know the real truth but you just do not want to face
it. The fact remains that the three Ottoman vilayets of Selanik,
Uskup, and Monastir contained "Macedonia" but nobody ever stated that
these were the exact borders of Macedonia apart from some Bulgarian
irredentists. You can read all modern historians including Borza if
you like about the accurate borders of classical Macedonia (the one
populated by Macedonians). This is certainly not impossible for you,
is it?
> > > > it was a senatorial province. This, idiot did not mean that its inhabitants
> > > > had the Ius Italicum (which was defunct at 100 AD anyway),
> > > Did you know that Tripoli was awarded "ius italicum" (exemption from land taxes) by
> > > Septimus Severus (AD 208-212)?!?
> > > It seems that this is not the only inaccuracy in your statement above.
> > And what does this have to do with the blooper above???
>
> You said that "Ius Italicum" was defunct at 100 AD.
> I showed you that it was not.
The fact that Septimius Severus ressurected a specific "right" at that
time hardly makes it fully in use at that time. There were three
kinds of rights in the early Roman Empire, Ius Romanum, Ius Latinum
and Ius Italicum. The collapse of these categories to a single one
(that of Roman citizenship) was one of the main demands that fed the
Roman "revolution" in the period of the Republic. Ius Italicus only
allowed some areas to not to pay a land tax and it was mostly reserved
for colonies of veterans. It was hardly been awarded in the late
Principate. But it was your main blooper to say that because the map
contained the designation SPQR, Macedonia was granted the Ius Italicus
(wow!!) and that meant that they had Roman citizenship rights. How
many things can you get wrong in a single statement?
> Same story like with your statement that the title "Imperator" of the Roman emperors
> became increasingly unimportant, which again was totally wrong.
Nice editorializing but I think that I have proven this to you.
Again, stupid, try to get this. Imperator was only an acclamation not
connected with any specific office. The emperor's title was not
"imperator" nor did this mean anything beyond "military prowess". Can
you get that through your head? I already explained the republican
offices that the emperor held that gave him his authority and power.
Many emperors came to power without having been acclaimed imperators,
an acclamation that they achieved later in their reigns.
> > Listen, any further discussion with you on any historical matters will
> > only result in my blood pressure going up because I have really hard
> > time dealing with fools. I just do not suffer fools well.
>
> You should not deal with fools, Tassos, you should deal with history.
> It would decrease your blood pressure and improve your understanding.
>
Trying to reason with you is virtually impossible because you keep
shifting from blooper to blooper without any rudder. I cannot decide
that you are as uninformed as you seem to be or that you have decided
to stick to stupid Macedonist claims come hell or high water because
this is your mission. A clever person would do neither. That person
would not enter into discussions where he/she can be shown to be badly
in error or try to defend undefentable positions. In any case, a
right person would have the integrity to admit mistakes.
ADR
Anastassios Retzios
> "Anastassios Retzios" <adre...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:4f2b5361.03091...@posting.google.com...
> > Listen, enough of this idiotic discussion. If you are not going to be
> > convinced by the most eminent historians of Rome of our times, there
> > is nothing that I can do for you. My man, you are thick.
>
> Look, Tassos, everybody can read some lines in a book, quote it and say. "Hey, I'am
> historian"!
> It's the context that matters, and I have NEVER seen any serious scientific approach
> of Roman history without going through Latin language first.
> I read "De Bello Gallico" when I was 12 years old. The original version, in Latin.
Well, I am impressed. Thanks for the info as well. Reading a few
lines from the "Gallic wars" in Latin hardly qualifies you in debating
history here and you repeated mistakes and mistatements prove this.
Personally, very much as everyone else of my generation, I had more
Latin that I could care at school. However, this hardly qualifies me
as a "historian" and I will not make this stupid claim.
> > As for Caesar using the title "Imperator" as a political title, the
> > only thing that I have to say is.....what, I am speechless. This is
> > the most stupid statement I have heard. I have refered you to
> > Suetonius but this was not adequate I guess.
>
> Yes, and YOU said that there was no coin of Julius Caesar with "IMP", and I prove you wrong. Since then you're speechless ...
I have not been speechless because of this, but because of you
incredible assertions that do not have connections to reality. I
think that in terms of the title Imperator in Caesar's coins, it
appears only in about 3 issues out of possible 50. Therefore, on the
main, the term IMP does not appear in the vast majority of coins
issued by Julius Caesar. A lot of the coins connect him to his
victories in various fronts and mostly to his divine connections with
Venus (of the house of Iulii).
> >
> > Listen...you are a damn ass with big ears, OK.
>
> Here we go ... the usual insult, which I was already missing.
>
> > If you want to
> > subscribe to you notion of history be my guest. There is no reason to
> > debate these outlandish claims with me and I have, indeed, better
> > things to do with my life.
>
> OK, Tassos, then go ahead - and leave history to those who understand.
Ha, ha...and that you be you????
> > > Tassos, if you would have read not only Grant and Webster but also Livius, you
> would
> > > have understood how you came to such fallacy.
> > >
> > > Livius explains us that Scipio, after defeating the troops of Hasdrubal in the
> Battle
> > > of Ilipa in 206 BC, released the Spanish prisoners who had previously surrendered.
> > > They gathered around him and saluted him as "King", a title which he - as Roman -
> > > could not accept. Instead he suggested them to use "Imperator" as he was called by
> his
> > > Roman soldiers in consideraton of his disciplinary authority.
> > > By this way, Scipio was the first military commander who used this distinciton in
> > > connection to a victory, but it was certainly not given to him by his own troops
> > > hailing for his victory nor was this the original meaning of "Imperator" in
> military
> > > circles.
> > > After Scipio the title "Imperator" came into use for qualifying a military
> triumph.
I like that you weave the story to "prove me wrong" when I brought it
to your attention in the first place and you claimed that the
information that I referenced regagrding Scipio being the first to be
hailed as Imperator was fake. What's the problem? Is your memory
failing you? Can you do anything else but lie?
ADR
> > > The same like after Caesar it became a political title.
> > >
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
> Galina wrote:
>
> And what became of those Fascist Bulgarians
they went back to Bulgaria
> and SKOPIANS running up and down
> Makedonia killing our peasants and taking their animals and their crop?
invalid premise
>
> Overnight they became Tito's and Dimitrov's Communists fighting first for an
> Independent "Makedonia" within the frame of the Yugoslav Popular Republics and
> as soon as Tito was denounced by International Communism, fighting for an
> "Autonomkous Makedonia" within Stalin's Popular Republics.
invalid premise
>
>
> It is SAD to say the least that some of our people brainwashed by Communism,
brainwashed? You are commenting on brainwashinging? You?
>
> not only they supported its expancion and tied up their fortunes with its
> future, but also TODAY they keep DEFENDING their position(s).
> Who knows how many pictures of Tito have come down from the Pelagonian houses,
> because those SKOPIAN houses were and are SLAV houses.
>
> >No Skopjan ever put up any fascist monument.>
>
> Since most of the SKOPIANS
learn to spell
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
> Galina wrote:
>
> >While you are paying extreme prices to belong to the loser netservice AoHell,
> >why not take all your translations, clean them up and put them on a webpage.
> >Aol gives you free webpages>
>
> Dear Galina
> I am afraid you do not understand Modis' style. Modis is writing in his own
> style making it difficult even for Greeks to understand him since his writings
> were intended for the people of Western Makedonia.
> Modis' style is asking you to THINK in order to UNDERSTAND what he is trying to
> tell you.
> And that was my most difficult problem in his tyranslations, how could I have
> it done the SAME way as he was doing do it.
> I can polish my Greek to English translations, but then.........they would be
> not Modis' writings, matter of fact Panayiota "polished" one of them for me,
> but it was not the same, Modis' style had gone.
> There is something else, in many of his stories Modis involves the local
> Slavo-Bulgar idiom which he calls and defines it by various names, not always
> the same.
Right. He himself was in the process of designing his propagandistic stories,
hwile retaining some of the cute local yokel aspect.
June R Harton
"++" <arch...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3F675BC4...@erols.com...
> It's overly long (stick to one topic at a time) but basically a lot of the
history
> above had littlel to do with Macedonians except as victims or partisans,
and a lot
> to do with Bulgarians and others,.
Overly sick. Learn to think, Schneider.
Why do you post such silly lies, Bulgars.
You only have to look here to see that the Fyrom Slavic majority are simply
West Bulgarians and have no connection to 'Macedonia' anything:
In a letter to Prof. Marin Drinov of May 25, 1888 Kuzman Shapkarev writes:
"But even stranger is the name Macedonians, which was imposed on us only 10
to 15 years ago by outsiders, and not as something by our own
intellectuals... Yet the people in Macedonia know nothing of that ancient
name, reintroduced today with a cunning aim on the one hand and a stupid one
on the other. They know the older word: "Bugari", although mispronounced:
they have even adopted it as peculiarly theirs, inapplicable to other
Bulgarians. You can find more about this in the introduction to the booklets
I am sending you. They call their own Macedono-Bulgarian dialect the
"Bugarski language", while the rest of the Bulgarian dialects they refer to
as the "Shopski language". (Makedonski pregled, IX, 2, 1934, p. 55; the
original letter is kept in the Marin Drinov Museum in Sofia, and it is
available for examination and study)
Here is the text in the original:
"No pochudno e imeto Makedonci, koeto naskoro, edvay predi 10-15 godini, ni
natrapiha i to otvqn, a ne kakto nyakoi mislyat ot samata nasha
inteligenciya... Narodqt obache v Makedoniya ne znae nishto za tova
arhaichesko, a dnes, s lukava cel ot edna strana, s glupeshka ot druga,
podnoveno prozvishte; toy si znae postaroto: Bugari, makar i nepravilno
proiznasyano, daje osvoyava si go kato sobstveno i preimushtestveno svoe,
nejeli za drugite Bqlgari. Za tova shte vidite i v predgovora na izpratenite
mi knijici. Toy naricha Bugarski ezik svoeto Makaedono-bqlgarsko narechie,
kogato drugite bqlgarski narechiya naricha Shopski."
And here:
Reference source for Gotse Delchev's numerous utterings of 'We are
Bulgarians'......
http://www.ucc.ie/staff/jprodr/macedonia/macmodnat2.html
Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de
guerre was Ahil (Achilles), refers to "the Slavs of Macedonia as
'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a
designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).
In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply, "We are
Bulgarians" (MacDermott 1978:192,273).
And here:
For fair use only.
http://members.tripod.com/~dimobetchev/documents/ilinden.htm
" Considering the critical and terrible situation that the Bulgarian
population of the Bitola Vilayet found itself in and following the ravages
and cruelties done by the Turkish troops and irregulars, ... considering
the fact that everything Bulgarian runs the risk of perishing and
disappearing without a trace because of violence, hunger, and the upcoming
misery, the Head Quarters finds it to be its obligation to draw the
attention of the respected Bulgarian government to the pernicious
consequences vis-a-vis the Bulgarian nation, in case the latter does not
fulfill its duty towards its brethren of race here in an imposing fashion
which is necessary by virtue of the present ordeal for the common Bulgarian
Fatherland...
...Being in command of our people's movement, we appeal to you on behalf of
the enslaved Bulgarian to help him in the most effective way - by waging
war.We believe that the response of the people in free Bulgaria will be the
same.
... No bulgarian school is opened, neither will it be opened... Nobody
thinks of education when he is outlawed by the state because he bears the
name Bulgar...
Waiting for your patriotic intervention, we are pleased to inform you that
we have in our disposition the armed forces we have spared by now.
The Head Quarters of the Ilinden Uprising"
Damian GRUEV, Boris SARAFOV, Atanas LOZANTCHEV
This memorandum was handed to Dr.Kozhuharov, the Bulgarian consul in Bitola,
and transmitted by him to the government in Sofia with report N441 from
September 17th, 1903. "
And here:
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/document.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen1.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen2.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/documen3.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/drzhava.htm
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/exarchy.htm
http://w3.tyenet.com/kozlich/mapovska4a.htm
And finally here
http://www.bulgaria.com/VMRO/bitola06.htm
http://www.historymuseum.org/items.php3?nid=199&name=ochrid
from: Spirit of Truth
(using June's e-mail to communicate to you)!
Jason An. Lambrou
Ilinden wrote:
> Tsapan, Ohrana originated in Russia, not in Bulgaria , the secret police of Russia
> bre drvo Vlashko.
> Ilinden
> The only thing worse than your logic is your manners. I have snipped away
> all of what you wrote, because, well... it didn't really say anything. Your
> attempt at constructing a coherent statement was pitiful. I mean, really,
> stringing together a patch of paranoia among a load of babbling was hardly
> effective...
>
> eca*awt85112969/51703
> Don't mess with the diamond, he'll come down on you harder than Greek Grammar
George S. Tsapanos
>Tsapan, Ohrana originated in Russia, not in Bulgaria , the secret police of
>Russia>bre drvo Vlashko.
>Ilinden>
SKOPIAN
Are you an OHRANA apologist now?
George S. Tsapanos
>they went back to Bulgaria>
Oh? Who were then those running with Zachariadis under the NOF ombrella?
>invalid premise>
Whats the matter? Don't you like the fact that your Bulgarians were killing our
Makedonians?
>invalid premise>
Thats because you are ignorant of history.
>brainwashed? You are commenting on brainwashinging? You?>
Whats wrong again? Don't you like my "theories" ? At least are MINE.
>learn to spell>
SKOPIANS they were and SKOPIANS will be, unless you prefare of course
F.Y.R.O.M.
George S. Tsapanos
>Right. He himself was in the process of designing his propagandistic
>stories,>hwile retaining some of the cute local yokel aspect.>
When someone is writing the history of his people, it is reality not
propaganda, of course since you don't like history and reality to you is
propaganda...........
++
"George S. Tsapanos" wrote:
> Galina wrote:
>
> >Right. He himself was in the process of designing his propagandistic
> >stories,>hwile retaining some of the cute local yokel aspect.>
>
> When someone is writing the history of his people, it is reality not
> propaganda, of course since you don't like history and reality to you is
> propaganda...........
He's not an historian