Greek International Law Professor, Aleksis Iraklidis, of Athens Pandino University: "The real disaster occurred after the war and the assaults were by Greek soldiers."
rick murphy
Greek International Law Professor, Aleksis Iraklidis, of Athens
Pandino University: "The real disaster occurred after the war and the
assaults were by Greek soldiers."
http://www.byegm.gov.tr/YAYINLARIMIZ/CHR/ING2001/03/14x03x01.HTM#%2011
GREEK PROFESSOR'S REACTION TO ALLEGATION OF THE SO-CALLED ASIA MINOR
GENOCIDE
Another sound reaction to the Greek government's allegations of the so-
called Asia Minor Genocide came from Greek International Law
Professor, Aleksis Iraklidis, at the Athens Pandino University.
Stating the incidents taking place in Western Anatolia during 1922
could not be considered a genocide, Iraklidis said "The real disaster
occurred after the war and the assaults were by Greek soldiers." In
his article for the Ta Nea Daily paper, Iraklidis stated "If we insist
on speaking without knowing the historical facts, and continue to
defend the allegations of genocide, the Turks might also argue that
expulsion of the people of Turkish origin from the Balkans was
genocide. Greece and other Balkan armies perpetrated extremely violent
activities, particularly in 1912." /Cumhuriyet/
Greek International Law Professor, Aleksis Iraklidis: "The real
disaster occurred after the war and the assaults were by Greek
soldiers."
Mitsos***
> Greek International Law Professor, Aleksis Iraklidis, of Athens
> Pandino University: "The real disaster occurred after the war and the
> assaults were by Greek soldiers."
>
>
>
> http://www.byegm.gov.tr/YAYINLARIMIZ/CHR/ING2001/03/14x03x01.HTM#%2011
>
> GREEK PROFESSOR'S REACTION TO ALLEGATION OF THE SO-CALLED ASIA MINOR
> GENOCIDE
> Another sound reaction to the Greek government's allegations of the so-
> called Asia Minor Genocide came from Greek International Law
> Professor, Aleksis Iraklidis, at the Athens Pandino University.
> Stating the incidents taking place in Western Anatolia during 1922
> could not be considered a genocide, Iraklidis said "The real disaster
> occurred after the war and the assaults were by Greek soldiers." In
> his article for the Ta Nea Daily paper, Iraklidis stated "If we insist
> on speaking without knowing the historical facts, and continue to
> defend the allegations of genocide, the Turks might also argue that
> expulsion of the people of Turkish origin from the Balkans was
> genocide.
The British lost India and China. Genocide? Don't think so but killing
most of the Pontian Greeks was genocide retarded grey wolf Turk rich murphey
> Greece and other Balkan armies perpetrated extremely violent
> activities, particularly in 1912." /Cumhuriyet/
Well acording to you retards the Armenians just vanished from Turkey.
1,5 million Armenians vanished in to thin air and there was no genocide.
Just claim "victim hood " and no Turkish genocide or massmurder ever
happen. Do you believe the shit your posting murphey?
Perhaps the Greeks are the occupiers on Cyprus? Give the Balkans back to
the Turks? Is this what you are thinking? Greeks back to Mongolia where
they come from and the Parthenon to it's rightful owners the Turks?
You are retard but people on Usenet know this.
>
> Greek International Law Professor, Aleksis Iraklidis: "The real
> disaster occurred after the war and the assaults were by Greek
> soldiers."
Throwing stones? Because by then the Greek army had run out of amunition
ADR
I find it funny that Turks would complaint about atrocities
perpetrated by others. If there was ever a country that made atrocity
a policy in its wars of conquest, this was Ottoman Turkey. In fact,
the list of atrocities perpetrated by the Ottomans would fill long,
long lists. It is not really particularly amazing that those who
suffered may want a small measure of revenge, although to the degree
that this happened is highly questionable.
In 1912, the allied armies that entered areas of solid Turkish
habitation were the Bulgarians. I am not particularly aware of any
atrocities by the invading Bulgarian army, but I would not think of it
as impossible. In the Asia Minor campaign, we should not forget that
the Greek army entered this conflict as allies to the Ottoman sultan
and aimed to restore his authority against the Kemal-led rebels. Did
the Greek army engage in certain atrocities against Turkish
populations. Probably. On the other hand, the Turkish irregulars
were involved in wholesale atrocities against Christian populations
throughout the area of conflict. And let's not forget the fact that
1.5 million Armenians somehow mysteriously disappeared from Asia
Minor.
Atrocities by any group or state or army are and should be
unacceptable. But to have our dear "friends" the Turks complain about
atrocities is just too funny.
If they are so much against atrocities, I do hope that they arrest and
send to the International Court all those responsible for atrocities
against civilians and prisoners in Cyprus in 1974.
rich murphy
Go tell this bull-shit to your professor, Aleksis Iraklidis.
> against civilians and prisoners in Cyprus in 1974.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
rich murphy
No Armenian "just vanished from Ottoman country". The ones vanished
were Turks, Arabs, Kurds and other Ottoman Moslem subjects in the
hands of Armenian terrorists. The New York Times acknowledges that
they were armed to teeth.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9B03E0DC1738E633A25750C1A9679D946596D6CF
Turkish (Ottoman) Armenians In Armed Revolt
The New York Times
Published: Novembver 13, 1914
Were Ready to Join Russian Invaders, Having Drilled and Collected Arms
SEE DAY OF DELIVEREANCE
Native Paper Says They are Prepared for Any Sacrifice - Refuse to Join
Turkish Army.
PETROGRAD, Nov. 12. - Reports reaching to Russian capital from the
Turkish border attach increasing importance to the part the Armenians
are playing in the Russo-Turkish war.
In the several towns occupuied by the Russians the Armenian students
have shown themselves ready to join the invading army, explaingin that
they had prepared themsleves for the Russian approach by constant
drilling and by gathering arms secretly. All along the line of march,
according to these dispatches, the Armenian peasants are receiving the
Russian troops with enthusiasm and giving provisions to them freely.
An Armenian newspaper, referring to this crisis in the history of
Armenia, publishes the following:
"The long-anticipated day of deliverance for the Turkish Armenians is
at hand, and the Armenians are prepared for any sacrifice made
necessary by the performance of their manisfest duty."
From this border country there have come to Petrograd further reports
of armed conflicts arising from the refusal of Armenians to become
Turkish conscripts and to surrender thier arms.
It is now rumored that the important City of Van is now besieged by
Armenian guerrila bands in great force. In Feitun the number of
insurgents is said to exceed 20,000m and they are reported to have
defeated all the Turkish troops sents against them, causing heavy
losses to the Turks.
On Aug 30, 11:56 am, Mitsos*** <smyrna@is_greek.org> wrote:
> Throwing stones? Because by then the Greek army had run out of amunition- Hide quoted text -
rich murphy
I do not give a shit what Ottomans did or did not do you. I am not
Ottoman. Nobody is Ottoman in Turkiye. Ottomans were the Janissaries
(devshirmes) who were recruited all from non-Turkish, non-Moslem
Ottoman subjects including Greeks by the Ottoman system. The most
famous Ottoman admiral Barorossa was a Greek among many other Ottoman
ministers, governors, mayors, pashas, zabits, etc. who were Greeks.
Even Ottoman sultans were not Turks at all. The mothers of all Ottoman
sultana with no exceptions were all concubines of Greek, Armenian,
Russian, Hungarian and other Eastern European races.
Turks have established their Democratic Republic of Turkiye after
winning its War of Independence on October 29, 1923 against the
victors of WWI, Greeks, Armenians and all odds. Until then Turks were
an oppressed subjugated nation under Ottoman yoke. Now Turkiye is the
17th economic power in the World.
Turks were never Ottomans; and Ottoman were never Turks. The system
Ottoman oppression was made up of all non-Turkish Ottoman subjects,
namely Greeks, Armenians and other Balkan nationalities (all non-
Turkish) who were recruited for Ottoman military and civil service as
devshirmes or Janissaries. They were the Sultan's pashas, zabits,
businesmen, governors, mayors, ambassadors, ministers, and every
Ottoman goverment employee.
The system of Ottoman oppression kept Turks under its yoke as the
poorest, most ignorant and most powerless; so the Turks could not
rebel and topple it. Ottoman oppression was established on the ruins
of many Turkish states and principalities of Asia Minor. It tried its
best for over 600 years to ruin Turkish culture, language and
nationality, and prevented Turks form advancing in contemporary
sicence, technologies and humanities by keeping them in darkness of
terrorist Islamism for so long. Under Ottoman law, while its non-
Turkish subjects ware allowed to heve their Linguistic, cultural,
religious and educational institutions, it was a crime almost always
punished with death for Turks to ask for the same.
I do not give a shit what Ottomans did or did not to you. Ottomans
were partly Greek as well as other nationalities its janissaries came
from. Therefore go bitch to your grand-fathers.
On Aug 30, 2:31 pm, ADR <aretz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> against civilians and prisoners in Cyprus in 1974.- Hide quoted text -
Mitsos***
> Go tell this bull-shit to your professor, Aleksis Iraklidis.
"To the reporter's question whether Professor Iraklidis is ashamed to be
a Greek, he answered �Yes�."
I don't think we need to go further after that.
>
< BS snipped>
choro
news:h7gv4p$9co$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> rich murphy wrote:
>> Go tell this bull-shit to your professor, Aleksis Iraklidis.
>
> "To the reporter's question whether Professor Iraklidis is ashamed to be a
> I don't think we need to go further after that.
No doubt you have got your own interpretation of this. Next we'll get
Agamamnon accusing him with TREASON and call for OFF WITH HIS HEAD!!!
But Greeks are angels descended from heaven, aren't they?
Let's face it. Attrocities are always committed in wars. And more Greek v
Greek attrocities were committed during the civil war that followed the
ending of WW2. Go read some history books.
--
choro
*******
>>
> < BS snipped>
>
stef
So you are proud of the atrocities the Greeks did in Asia Minor? Just
like the Turks are (by denying their own facts), you Ottoman remnant?
FYI, it were the Greeks that started the horror. Get an education and
get used to it.
Oh and Smyrna is not Greek anymore. Smyrna was lost because of stupid
nationalists like you who have shit for brains. Time to fix your profile.
SN
> > In 1912, the allied armies that entered areas of solid Turkish
> > habitation were the Bulgarians. I am not particularly aware of any
> > atrocities by the invading Bulgarian army, but I would not think of it
> > as impossible.
Actually, there were many such cases. The victims of the invading
Bulgarians (who saw themselves as liberators, though)
were mostly the Pomacs (Bulgarian speaking Muslims) who were
forcefully converted to Christianity and those refusing were shot
dead.
The primary motivation for the Bulgarians was the memory the
attrocities committed back in 1876 by the Ottoman irregulars, mostly
Pomacs.
SN
This is fair point. I have been advocating this approach for years and
I am reluctant to see medieval multinational empires as back
projections of modern national states.
However, Turkey has exclusively claimed the Ottoman heritage as her
own. Although, you do not seem to subscribe that idea, you need to
admit that if modern Turks want to see themselves as THE heirs of the
Ottomans they should also accept the shortcomings from the past. You,
ADR
> The system of Ottoman oppression kept Turks under its yoke as the
> poorest, most ignorant and most powerless; so the Turks could not
> rebel and topple it. Ottoman oppression was established on the ruins
> of many Turkish states and principalities of Asia Minor. It tried its
> best for over 600 years to ruin Turkish culture, language and
> nationality, and prevented Turks form advancing in contemporary
> sicence, technologies and humanities by keeping them in darkness of
> terrorist Islamism for so long. Under Ottoman law, while its non-
> Turkish subjects ware allowed to heve their Linguistic, cultural,
> religious and educational institutions, it was a crime almost always
> punished with death for Turks to ask for the same.
>
> I do not give a shit what Ottomans did or did not to you. Ottomans
> were partly Greek as well as other nationalities its janissaries came
> from. Therefore go bitch to your grand-fathers.
Well, modern Turkey is claiming the Ottoman experience as its own, so
you cannot have it both ways. And irrespective of the fact that other
nationalities played a role, they played the role as part of a Turkish-
speaking, Muslim state that originate in Prussa and later expanded in
the Balkans and Asia Minor. The janissaries were not Turks by birth
but Turks by adoption. Yes, under Ottoman rule, Asia Minor and its
Turkish inhabitants suffered but not because the Ottoman Empire
oppressed them. The Ottoman Empire had no clue of how develop
territories under its possession and places that were outside areas
touched by European interests suffered the most.
In any case, you may not care about the Ottomans, but official Turkey
does. With this, comes both the positive (???) and the negative. In
any case, I do not subscribe to atrocities and those perpetrated by
Greeks on Turks are reprehensible and would not receive my support or
my tolerance. Greek atrocities in Asia Minor occured and have been
discussed in Greece but the protagonists of all these have long put on
trial (for a variety of reasons) and many were executed. But each
state needs to look internally to define these problems and you
posting anti-Greek statements here without any particular examination
of Turkey's record does your cause no justice.
choro
news:h7h1vn$1qr$1...@tioat.net...
> Mitsos*** wrote:
>> rich murphy wrote:
>>> Go tell this bull-shit to your professor, Aleksis Iraklidis.
>>
>> "To the reporter's question whether Professor Iraklidis is ashamed to be
>> I don't think we need to go further after that.
>
> So you are proud of the atrocities the Greeks did in Asia Minor? Just
> like the Turks are (by denying their own facts), you Ottoman remnant?
>
> FYI, it were the Greeks that started the horror. Get an education and get
> used to it.
>
> Oh and Smyrna is not Greek anymore. Smyrna was lost because of stupid
> nationalists like you who have shit for brains. Time to fix your profile.
Well said stef. This mitsos character reminds me of the character known as
"daskalos" in "Birds Without Wings" arguably de Berniere's best novel who
gets a dressing down by his own father over his fanatical nationalism.
--
choro
*****
ADR
> Oh and Smyrna is not Greek anymore. Smyrna was lost because of stupid
> nationalists like you who have shit for brains. Time to fix your profile.
I am not sure who "started the horror" and all this crap. And
"beginning the horror" is never a excuse for any side to engage in
atrocities. We are discussing this matter as if we have all the facts
and we do not. As I said, there is little doubt that atrocities
occurred. In any case, it is difficult to contain troops when they are
subjected to a guerrilla warfare, as the Greek troops were in their
advance in Asia Minor. One needs to point out that Greek troops were
send to another hell hole after a long fight in WWI. But these
atrocities were quite limited in nature compared to those of the
Kemalist irregulars against Christian (not necessarily Greek)
populations. So, if we are looking for blame, there is a lot of it to
be passed around.
As for Smyrna, the Greek troops should not have landed there. Despite
the fact that Smyrna had a sizable Greek community, the countryside
was not populated by Greeks. And the causes of the failure in Asia
Minor is not a simple as to be attributed to "stupid nationalists".
It was a lot more complex than this. The Greek army left the coast to
support the Sultani forces against the Kemalist rebels who did not
want to accept the Versailles Agreement. The Entente actually
requested that Greece enforced the agreement. At the same time,
members of the Entente (such as Italy and Britain), did not want a
competitor in the area and conspired against Greece (Italy had designs
on SE Asia Minor and the Dodecanese). The Soviet Union, also under
attack by the Entente (and Greek troops in the Crimea) assisted the
Kemali forces. In any case, Greece should not have undertaken (a) a
campaign without the material support necessary and with tired troops
and (b) to support the Sultani forces which were poorly equipped and
had very poor morale and (c) they should have never assigned the
Sultani forces the task of guarding their flanks (as stupid an
arrangement as that of the Wehrmacht in Stalingrad).
Well, if an Ottoman/Sultani Turkey were a better outcome than a
Kemalist Turkey, I would leave this up to the Turks to decide. My
belief is that an Ottoman Turkey would have been a far more
cosmopolitan and tolerant place than the Kemalist Turkey that ensued,
but these are value judgments.
EcoGenie
> Well, if an Ottoman/Sultani Turkey were a better outcome than a
> Kemalist Turkey, I would leave this up to the Turks to decide. My
> belief is that an Ottoman Turkey would have been a far more
> cosmopolitan and tolerant place than the Kemalist Turkey that ensued,
> but these are value judgments.
You are right Mate, Turkey is now just another secularo-fascist
country like France and the UK. One law. one, one nation, one leader,
one land. They can't bear more than one law, they don't allow
Christians, Jews, Muslims to live their lives according to their own
laws and legal institutions. And the EU is trying to make it a
complete mono-law with their one constitution, degenerating all
multiplicity to singularity.
I keep on suggesting the following draft as a constitution to EU but
who listens?!
"We declare to the world that according to the principle put by this
constitution we accept
SPEEs eco-cultural diversity,
each SPEE has right to make their own laws and implement them to
their members,
we deny
any monopoly to any SPEE,
to reduce the of multiplicity of SPEEs to singularity
to protect and practice those rights and prevent the degeneration of
eco-librium of SPEEs and their natural environments we will organise
institutions to establish justice and guide with truth to peace,
unless the God wills otherwise.
Article 1. Each SPEE as a socio-politico-economic-entity decides her
own form of administration herself and names herself.
Article 2. Within the framework of this constitution, law making and
implementing their own laws to their own members, ruling power
belong to SPEEs.
Article 3. No SPEE can impose their laws to other SPEEs, can judge
other SPEE members according to their own laws.
Article 4. Laws of SPEEs are in effect on their members in all time
and space.
Article 5. Each member of an SPEE has the right to obtain termination
of membership according to the laws of the SPEE.
Article 6. SPEEs decide their aims and duties according to their laws
but those cannot be in contradiction to the principles of this
constitution.
Article 7. Inter SPEE laws will be made and institution will be
organised by SPEEs according to the principles of this constitution.
EcoGenie
wait you see your culture degenerated to singularity by the EU.
Under the Ottoman rule even after 300-400 years you were allowed to
preserve your identity and laws, but under the EU you have to give up
your power to make your own laws and get assimilated by the
Constitution of the EU, which is a typical secularo-fascist
constitution recognizing no right to law to Christians, Muslims and
Jews. All must obey to the laws of secularo-fascists.
You guys are doomed to be secularo-fascists under the tyranny of the
EU, while you were still Christians, Jews, Muslims under the Ottoman
rule with all the right to make and implement your own laws and live
according to them in freedom. It is utmost important to have the
freedom of law to preserve your cultural identity. Once you lose this
freedom you are doomed to be assimilated with no return.
EcoGenie
> Well, if an Ottoman/Sultani Turkey were a better outcome than a
> Kemalist Turkey, I would leave this up to the Turks to decide. My
> belief is that an Ottoman Turkey would have been a far more
> cosmopolitan and tolerant place than the Kemalist Turkey that ensued,
> but these are value judgments.
French who destroyed their rich multiplicity of their culture in
France via the secularo-fascist revolution is now trying to do the
same to whole Europe and you guys are sucked into it already.
I recommend you to read the following book in contract with the Draft
Constitution I have posted here to understand what I mean:
The Discovery of France, by Graham Robb, 2007
don't miss this book if you really care about preserving of your
cultural identity.
Also check out :
http://groups.google.com/group/AlaaddinsCave?lnk=iggc
rich murphy
It is true that "Under the Ottoman rule even after 300-400 years you
were allowed to
preserve your identity and laws," except for Turks. Ottoman was never
Turk. Ottoman was Greek, Armenian, Serb, Bulgar and other non-Turkish
subjects of Ottoman minirities of Eastern Europe.
Turks were never Ottomans; and Ottoman were never Turks. The system
Ottoman oppression was made up of all non-Turkish Ottoman subjects,
namely Greeks, Armenians and other Balkan nationalities (all non-
Turkish) who were recruited for Ottoman military and civil service as
devshirmes or Janissaries. They were the Sultan's pashas, zabits,
businesmen, governors, mayors, ambassadors, ministers, and every
Ottoman goverment employee.
The system of Ottoman oppression kept Turks under its yoke as the
poorest, most ignorant and most powerless; so the Turks could not
rebel and topple it. Ottoman oppression was established on the ruins
of many Turkish states and principalities of Asia Minor. It tried its
best for over 600 years to ruin Turkish culture, language and
nationality, and prevented Turks form advancing in contemporary
sicence, technologies and humanities by keeping them in darkness of
terrorist Islamism for so long. Under Ottoman law, while its non-
Turkish subjects ware allowed to heve their Linguistic, cultural,
religious and educational institutions, it was a crime almost always
punished with death for Turks to ask for the same.
> freedom you are doomed to be assimilated with no return.- Hide quoted text -
EcoGenie
> It is true that "Under the Ottoman rule even after 300-400 years you
> were allowed to
> preserve your identity and laws," except for Turks. Ottoman was never
> Turk. Ottoman was Greek, Armenian, Serb, Bulgar and other non-Turkish
> subjects of Ottoman minirities of Eastern Europe.
>
> Turks were never Ottomans; and Ottoman were never Turks. The system
> Ottoman oppression was made up of all non-Turkish Ottoman subjects,
> namely Greeks, Armenians and other Balkan nationalities (all non-
> Turkish) who were recruited for Ottoman military and civil service as
> devshirmes or Janissaries. They were the Sultan's pashas, zabits,
> businesmen, governors, mayors, ambassadors, ministers, and every
> Ottoman goverment employee.
>
> The system of Ottoman oppression kept Turks under its yoke as the
> poorest, most ignorant and most powerless; so the Turks could not
> rebel and topple it. Ottoman oppression was established on the ruins
> of many Turkish states and principalities of Asia Minor. It tried its
> best for over 600 years to ruin Turkish culture, language and
> nationality, and prevented Turks form advancing in contemporary
> sicence, technologies and humanities by keeping them in darkness of
> terrorist Islamism for so long. Under Ottoman law, while its non-
> Turkish subjects ware allowed to heve their Linguistic, cultural,
> religious and educational institutions, it was a crime almost always
> punished with death for Turks to ask for the same.
You are not a Turk, you are just a doenmeh who didn't keep the promise
you gave to the Grand Sen~or, so it is normal that you don't know the
history of Ottomans;-> I know you Mate, you changed your name from
enis to murphy but talking the same old tales of yours;->>
ADR
> Turks were never Ottomans; and Ottoman were never Turks. The system
> Ottoman oppression was made up of all non-Turkish Ottoman subjects,
> namely Greeks, Armenians and other Balkan nationalities (all non-
> Turkish) who were recruited for Ottoman military and civil service as
> devshirmes or Janissaries. They were the Sultan's pashas, zabits,
> businesmen, governors, mayors, ambassadors, ministers, and every
> Ottoman goverment employee.
>
> The system of Ottoman oppression kept Turks under its yoke as the
> poorest, most ignorant and most powerless; so the Turks could not
> rebel and topple it. Ottoman oppression was established on the ruins
> of many Turkish states and principalities of Asia Minor. It tried its
> best for over 600 years to ruin Turkish culture, language and
> nationality, and prevented Turks form advancing in contemporary
> sicence, technologies and humanities by keeping them in darkness of
> terrorist Islamism for so long. Under Ottoman law, while its non-
> Turkish subjects ware allowed to heve their Linguistic, cultural,
> religious and educational institutions, it was a crime almost always
> punished with death for Turks to ask for the same.
This is the Kemalist (and Grey Wolfish) view of Turkish history but it
is not true at all. You may choose to believe this fairy tale, and
there is nothing wrong with it. All states have their mythology,
Turkey just has a bit more of it. I just do not want to go to great
detail on this, it would be just useless. But the Ottoman Empire
would not be the first, not the last, that bankrupted its very core.
It was simply one of the worse and I understand why modern Turks would
like to distance themselves from it but it seems to me that modern
Turkey wants to have its cake and eat it too.
ADR
I love secularo-fascism. Any evidence of religion in civic life needs
to be eradicated. Only civic norms should be adhered to. People can
do whatever they want in their homes.
Panayiotis
"And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
(Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
======================================
"rich murphy" <Richard...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dae53063-2be4-4ba9...@h30g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
=============================================
rich murphy,
Do you mean that the genocide against the Armenians was conducted by Greeks?
Tell us one more "joke", please!
Panayiotis
rich murphy
> rich murphy,
> Do you mean that the genocide against the Armenians was conducted by Greeks?
> Tell us one more "joke", please!
>
> Panayiotis- Hide quoted text -
Greeks were busy with maccaring Ottoman Turkish subjects since their
rebellion against Ottoman Empire.
Armenians later on armed themselves to do the same.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9B03E0DC1738E633A25750C1A9679D946596D6CF
SEE DAY OF DELIVEREANCE
On Sep 2, 4:03 am, "Panayiotis" <panayioti...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ======================================
> "And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
> (Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
> ======================================"rich murphy" <RichardTRMur...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Panayiotis- Hide quoted text -
EcoGenie
Th Guy is not a Turk, he is just a doenmeh, like Kemal;->
EcoGenie
> ======================================
> "And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece."
> (Strabo VII, Frg. 9 [Loeb, H.L. Jones])
no, no, no according to this doenmeh's account if it is ever
conducted, it must be conducted by Armenians themselves, they were the
Ottomans;->>
I can understand this doenmeh's distorted perspective of Ottoman
history, for Doenmehs promised that they will never return (doenmeh)
but then they didn't keep their promise to the Grand Sen~or, that is
why they are called doenmehs.
EcoGenie
I know that you love what you are, but then there are a lot of clever
people out there who see the danger and threat of secularo-fascists
towards humanity which had been exemplified by two WWs and they are
well equipped to drag the humanity to the 3rd WW. We don't like you
tyrannical people Guys, we don't like you at all. We will pull your
masks to disclose your real ugly and horrible face to all human beings
so they they beware of you.
EcoGenie
> I love secularo-fascism...
Then why do you complain?! Secularo-fascists kill them all, they keep
killing actually and they are getting ready for the final solution -
the Unified Grand Kill (UGK);-<
ADR
When did I actually complain?
The Unified Grand Kill? A very interesting idea!
ADR
> I know that you love what you are, but then there are a lot of clever
> people out there who see the danger and threat of secularo-fascists
> towards humanity which had been exemplified by two WWs and they are
> well equipped to drag the humanity to the 3rd WW. We don't like you
> tyrannical people Guys, we don't like you at all. We will pull your
> masks to disclose your real ugly and horrible face to all human beings
> so they they beware of you.
Wow, we are shaking in our booties!!!! I would say that getting rid
of religion would be a great thing, but I am so much of a secularist
that I would be happy if people keep all that at home and let
everybody else carry on without their useless fanaticism.
EcoGenie
I am talking about "right to law", you try to dilute it by "religion";-
>
Typical secularo-fascist mumbo-jumbo;->
Go, jump in the lake Mate!
Krater Makedonski
"rich murphy" <Richard...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:dae53063-2be4-4ba9...@h30g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
--------------- delete------------------
> "Ottoman was never Turk. Ottoman was Greek, Armenian, Serb, Bulgar and
> other non-Turkish subjects of Ottoman minirities of Eastern Europe...."
> "...Turks were never Ottomans; and Ottoman were never Turks. The system
> Ottoman oppression was made up of all non-Turkish Ottoman subjects,
> namely Greeks, Armenians and other Balkan nationalities (all
> non-Turkish)..."
----------------delete------------------
So, when the Ottomans invaded the Balkans, it was the "Greeks", Armenians
and "other Balkan nationalities", who invaded it? Seems to me like a
self-invasion/occupation, right? :-)
SN
> "rich murphy" <RichardTRMur...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Well, the father of Gazi Evrenos, for instance, seemed to have been a
Byzantine...
Krater Makedonski
"SN" <bg123...@abv.bg> wrote in message
news:826ca6b9-7bc6-4080...@w36g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
-------------------
OK, but one person does not constitute an army.
rich murphy
US State George Ball: "Makarios's central interest was to block off
Turkish intervention so that he and his Greek Cypriots could go on
happily massacring Turkish Cypriots..."
http://www.ataa.org/reference/trnc/genocide_trnc.html
Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus-TRNC
Attempted Genocide and Ethnic Cleansing in Cyprus
By Michael Stephen
Former British Parliamentarian (1992-97)
The assertion by Mr. Christides (May 10, 1999) that there was no
ethnic cleansing or attempted genocide of Turkish Cypriots by Greek
Cypriots is ridiculous. Until influential Greek Cypriots come to terms
with the appalling behavior of their community toward the smaller
Turkish Cypriot community and stop trying to persuade themselves and
the world that each side was as much to blame as the other, there will
be no reconciliation in Cyprus.
What did George Ball and Sir Alec Douglas say about the intentions of
Archbishop Makarios vis a vis the Turkish Cypriots?
In his memoirs, American Undersecretary of State George Ball said:
"Makarios's central interest was to block off Turkish intervention so
that he and his Greek Cypriots could go on happily massacring Turkish
Cypriots. Obviously we would never permit that. "The fact is, however,
that neither the United Nations, nor anyone, other than Turkey ever
took effective action to prevent it. On Feb. 17, 1964 the Washington
Post reported that "Greek Cypriot fanatics appear bent on a policy of
genocide."
Former British Prime Minister Sir Alec Douglas-Home said, "I was
convinced that if Archbishop Makarios could not bring himself to treat
the Turkish Cypriots as human beings he was inviting the invasion and
partition of the island."
On July 28, 1960 Makarios, the Greek Cypriot president, said: "The
independence agreements do not form the goal they are the present and
not the future. The Greek Cypriot people will continue their national
cause and shape their future in accordance with THEIR will." In a
speech on Sept. 4, 1962 at Panayia Makarios said, "Until this Turkish
community forming part of the Turkish race that has been the terrible
enemy of Hellenism is expelled, the duty of the heroes of EOKA can
never be considered terminated."
The Constitutional Coup
In November 1963 the Greek Cypriots demanded the abolition of no less
than eight of the basic articles that had been included in the 1960
agreement for the protection of the Turkish Cypriots. The Turkish
Cypriots, naturally, refused to agree. The aim of the Greek Cypriots
was to reduce the Turkish Cypriot people to the status of a mere
minority, wholly subject to the control of the Greek Cypriots, pending
ultimate destruction or expulsion of the Turkish Cypriots from the
island.
"When the Turkish Cypriots objected to the amendment of the
Constitution, Makarios put his plan into effect, and the Greek Cypriot
attack began in December 1963," wrote Lt. Gen. George Karayiannis of
The Greek Cypriot militia ("Ethnikos Kiryx" 15.6.65). The general was
referring to the notorious "Akritas" plan, which was the blueprint for
the annihilation of the Turkish Cypriots and the annexation of the
island to Greece.
Events leading to the sending of the UN Peace-Keeping Force to the
island
On Christmas Eve 1963 the Greek Cypriot militia attacked Turkish
Cypriot communities across the island. Large numbers of men, women,
and children were killed and 270 mosques, shrines and other places of
worship were desecrated.
On Dec. 28, 1963, the Daily Express carried the following report from
Cyprus: "We went tonight into the sealed-off Turkish Cypriot quarter
of Nicosia in which 200 to 300 people had been slaughtered in the last
five days. We were the first Western reporters there, and we have seen
sights too frightful to be described in print. Horror was so extreme
that the people seemed stunned beyond tears."
On Dec. 31, 1963, The Guardian reported: "It is nonsense to claim, as
the Greek Cypriots do, that all casualties were caused by fighting
between armed men of both sides. On Christmas Eve many Turkish Cypriot
people were brutally attacked and murdered in their suburban homes,
including the wife and children of a doctor-allegedly by a group of 40
men, many in army boots and greatcoats." Although the Turkish Cypriots
fought back as best they could and killed some militia, there were no
massacres of Greek Cypriot civilians.
On Jan. 1, 1964, the Daily Herald reported: "When I came across the
Turkish Cypriot homes they were an appalling sight. Apart from the
walls they just did not exist. I doubt if a napalm attack could have
created more devastation. Under roofs springs, children's cots, and
gray ashes of what had once been tables, chairs and wardrobes. In the
neighboring village of Ayios Vassilios I counted 16 wrecked and burned
out homes. They were all Turkish Cypriot's. In neither village did I
find a scrap of damage to any Greek Cypriot house."
On Jan. 2, 1964, the Daily Telegraph wrote: "The Greek Cypriot
community should not assume that the British military presence can or
should secure them against Turkish intervention if they persecute the
Turkish Cypriots. We must not be a shelter for double-crossers."
On Jan. 12, 1964, the British High Commission in Nicosia wrote in a
telegram to London: "The Greek [Cypriot] police are led by extremist
who provoked the fighting and deliberately engaged in atrocities. They
have recruited into their ranks as 'special constables' gun-happy
young thugs. They threaten to try and punish any Turkish Cypriot
police who wishes to return to the Cyprus Government... Makarios
assured Sir Arthur Clark that there will be no attack. His assurance
is as worthless as previous assurances have proved."
On Jan. 14, 1964, the Daily Telegraph reported that the Turkish
Cypriot inhabitants of Ayios Vassilios had been massacred on Dec. 26,
1963 and reported their exhumation from a mass grave in the presence
of the Red Cross. A further massacre of Turkish Cypriots, at Limassol,
was reported by The Observer on Feb. 16, 1964; and there were many
more.
On Feb. 6, 1964, a British patrol found armed Greek Cypriot police
attacking the Turkish Cypriots of Ayios Sozomenos. They were unable to
stop the attack.
On Feb. 13, 1964, the Greeks and Greek Cypriots attacked the Turkish
Cypriot quarter of Limassol with tanks, killing 16 and injuring 35.
On Feb. 15, 1964, the Daily Telegraph reported: "It is a real military
operation which the Greek Cypriots launched against the 6,000
inhabitants of the Turkish Cypriot quarter yesterday morning. A
spokesman for the Greek Cypriot government has recognized this
officially. It is hard to conceive how Greek and Turkish Cypriots may
seriously contemplate working together after all that has happened."
Further attempts for ENOSIS
On Sept. 10, 1964, the U.N. Secretary-General reported that "UNFICYP"
carried out a detailed survey of all damage to properties throughout
the island during the disturbances... It shows that in 109 villages,
most of them Turkish-Cypriot or mixed villages, 527 houses have been
destroyed while 2,000 others have suffered damage from looting. In
Ktima 38 houses and shops have been destroyed totally and 122
partially. In the Orphomita suburb of Nicosia, 50 houses have been
totally destroyed while a further 240 have been partially destroyed
there and in adjacent suburbs."
The U.K. House of Commons Select Committee on Foreign Affairs reviewed
the Cyprus question in 1987 and reported unanimously on July 2 of that
year that "although the Cyprus Government now claims to have been
merely seeking to 'operate the 1960 Constitution modified to the
extent dictated by the necessities of the situation,' this claim
ignores the fact that both before and after the events o#, December
1963 the Makarios Government continued to advocate the cause of ENOSIS
and actively pursued the amendment of the Constitution and the related
treaties to facilitate this ultimate objective."
The committee continued: "Moreover, in June 1967 the Greek Cypriot
legislature unanimously passed a resolution in favor of enosis, in
blatant contravention of the 1960 Treaties and Constitution." (Art. I
of the Treaty of Guarantee prohibited any action likely to directly or
indirectly promote union with any other state or partition of the
island, and Art. 185(2) of the Constitution is to similar effect.)
Professor Ernst Forsthoff, the neutral president of the Supreme
Constitutional Court of Cyprus, told Die Welt on Dec. 27, 1963:
"Makarios bears on his shoulders the sole responsibility for the
recent tragic events. His aim is to deprive the Turkish community of
their rights". In an interview with the UPI press agency on Dec. 30,
1963 he said, "All this happened because Makarios wanted to take away
all constitutional rights from the Turkish Cypriots."
The Failure of the UN and the others
The United Nations not only failed to condemn the forcible usurpation
of the legal order in Cyprus, but actually rewarded it by treating the
by then wholly Greek Cypriot administration as if it were the
government of Cyprus (Security Council Res. 186 of 1964). This
acceptance has continued to the present day, and reflects no credit
upon the United Nations, nor upon Britain, nor the other countries who
have acquiesced.
On Aug. 12, 1964, the UK representative to the United Nations wrote to
his government in London as follows:
"What is our policy and true feelings about the future of Cyprus and
about Makarios? Judging from the English newspapers and many others,
the feeling is very strong indeed against Makarios and his so-called
government, and nothing would please the British people more than to
see him toppled and the Cyprus problem solved by the direct dealings
between the Turks and the Greeks. We are of course supporting the
latter course, but I have never seen any expression of the official
disapproval in public against Makarios and his evil doings. Is there
an official view about this, and what do we think we should do in the
long run? Sometimes it seems that the obsession of some people with
"the Commonwealth" blinds us to everything else and it would be high
treason to take more active line against Makarios and his henchmen. At
other times the dominant feature seems to be concern lest active
opposition against Makarios should lead to direct conflict with the
Cypriots and end up with our losing our bases."
Exclusion of the Turkish Cypriots from representation at the
international fora
Thereafter Turkish Cypriot MPs, judges, and other officials were
intimidated or prevented by force from carrying out their duties.
According to the Select Committee, "The effect of the crisis of
December 1963 was to deliver control of the formal organs of
government into the hands of the Greek Cypriots alone. Claiming to be
acting in accordance with the doctrine of necessity, the Greek Cypriot
members of the House of Representatives enacted a series of laws which
provided for the operation of the organs of government without Turkish
Cypriot participation."
The report of the Select Committee continued: "Equality damaging from
the Turkish Cypriot point of view was what they considered to be their
effective exclusion from representation at and participation in the
international fora where their case could have been deployed... An
official Turkish Cypriot presence in the international political scene
virtually disappeared overnight." It is not therefore surprising that
the world has been persuaded to the Greek Cypriot point of view.
Atrocities of the Greek Cypriots
More than 300 Turkish Cypriots are still missing without trace from
these massacres of 1963/64. These dreadful events were not the
responsibility of "the Greek Colonels" of 1974 or an unrepresentative
handful of Greek Cypriot extremists. The persecution of the Turkish
Cypriots was an act of policy on the part of the Greek Cypriot
political and religious leadership, which has to this day made no
serious attempt to bring the murderers to justice.
The UK Commons Select Committee found that "there is little doubt that
much of the violence which the Turkish Cypriots claim led to the total
or partial destruction of 103 Turkish villages and the displacement of
about a quarter of the total Turkish Cypriot population was either
directly inspired by, or connived at, by the Greek Cypriot
leadership."
The UN secretary-general reported to the Security Council: "When the
disturbances broke out in December 1963 and continued during the first
part of 1964, thousands of Turkish Cypriots fled their homes, taking
with them only what they could drive or carry, and sought refuge in
safer villages and areas."
On Jan. 14, 1964, "ll Giorno" of Italy reported: "Right now we are
witnessing the exodus of Turkish Cypriots from the villages. Thousands
of people abandoning homes, land, herds. Greek Cypriot terrorism is
relentless. This time the rhetoric of the Hellenes and the statues of
Plato do not cover up their barbaric and ferocious behavior."
The Greek Cypriots sometimes allege that it was they who were attacked
by the Turkish Cypriots, who were determined to wreck the 1960
agreements. However, the Turkish Cypriots were not only outnumbered by
nearly four to one; they were also surrounded in their villages by
armed Greek Cypriots; they had no way of protecting their women and
children, and Turkey was 40 miles away across the sea. The very idea
that in those circumstances the Turkish Cypriots were the aggressors
is absurd.
The role of the mainland Greek troops in overthrowing of Makarios
There were further attacks on the Turkish Cypriots in 1967. In 1971,
General Grivas returned to Cyprus to form EOKA-B, which was again
committed to making Cyprus a wholly Greek island and annexing it to
Greece. In a speech to the Greek Cypriot armed forces at the time
(quoted in "New Cyprus," May 1987) Grivas said: "The Greek forces from
Greece have come to Cyprus in order to impose the will of the Greeks
of Cyprus upon the Turks. We want ENOSIS but the Turks are against it.
We shall impose our will. We are strong, and we shall do so."
By July 15, 1974, a powerful force of mainland Greek troops had
assembled in Cyprus and with their backing, the Greek Cypriot National
Guard overthrew Makarios and installed one Nicos Sampson as
"president." On July 22, the Washington Star News reported: "Bodies
littered the streets and there were mass burials... People told by
Makarios to lay down their guns were shot by the National Guard."
Missing persons, what is the truth?
On April 17, 1991, Ambassador Nelson Ledsky testified before the U.S.
Senate Foreign Relations Committee that "most of the 'missing persons'
disappeared in the first days of July 1974, before the Turkish
intervention on the 20th. Many killed on the Greek side were killed by
Greek Cypriots in fighting between supporters of Makarios and
Sampson."
On Nov. 6, 1974, Ta Nea reported that dates from the graves of Greek
Cypriots killed in the five days between July 15-20 were erased in
order to blame these deaths on the subsequent Turkish military action.
On March 3, 1996, the Greek Cypriot Cyprus Mail wrote: "(Greek)
Cypriot governments have found it convenient to conceal the scale of
atrocities during the July 15 coup in an attempt to downplay its
contribution to the tragedy of the summer of 1974 and instead blame
the Turkish invasion for all casualties. There can be no justification
for any government that failed to investigate this sensitive
humanitarian issue. The shocking admission by the Clerides government
that there are people buried in Nicosia cemetery who are still
included in the list of the 'missing' is the last episode of a human
drama which has been turned into a propaganda tool."
On Oct. 19 1996, Mr. Georgios Lanitis wrote: "I was serving with the
Foreign Information Service of the Republic of Cyprus in London... I
deeply apologize to all those I told that there are 1,619 missing
persons. I misled them. I was made a liar, deliberately, by the
government of Cyprus . .... today it seems that the credibility of
Cyprus is nil."
Had Turkey not intervened, what would have happened?
Turkish Cypriots appealed to the guarantor powers for help, but only
Turkey was willing to make any effective response. On July 20, 1974
Turkey intervened under Article IV of the Treaty of Guarantee. The
Greek newspaper Eleftherotipia published an interview with Nicos
Sampson on Feb. 26, 1981 in which he said, "Had Turkey not intervened
I would not only have proclaimed ENOSIS, I would have annihilated the
Turks in Cyprus."
More attacks against the Turkish community
The Times and The Guardian reported on Aug. 21, 1974 that in the
village of Tokhni on Aug. 14, 1974 all the Turkish Cypriot men between
the ages of 13 and 74, except for eighteen who managed to escape, were
taken away and shot.
There were also reports that in Zyyi on the same day all the Turkish-
Cypriot men aged between 19 an 38 were taken away and were never seen
again and that Greek-Cypriots opened fire on the Turkish-Cypriot
neighborhood of Paphos killing men, women, and children
indiscriminately.
On July 23, 1974, the Washington Post reported that "in a Greek raid
on a small Turkish village near Limassol 36 people out of a population
of 200 were killed. The Greeks said that they had been given orders to
kill the inhabitants of the Turkish villages before the Turkish forces
arrived." The Times and The Guardian also reported on the killings.
"The Greeks began to shell the Turkish quarter on Saturday, refugees
said. Kazan Dervis, a Turkish Cypriot girl aged 15, said she had been
staying with her uncle. The [Greek Cypriot] National Guard came into
the Turkish sector and shooting began. She saw her uncle and other
relatives taken away as prisoners, and later heard her uncle had been
shot." (Times 23.7.74)
On July 28, 1974 the New York Times reported that 14 Turkish-Cypriot
men had been shot in Alaminos. On July 24, 1974 France Soir reported
that "the Greeks burned Turkish mosques and set fire to Turkish homes
in the villages around Famagusta. Defenseless Turkish villagers who
have weapons live in an atmosphere of terror and they evacuate their
homes and go and live in tents in the forest. The Greeks' actions are
a shame to humanity."
On July 22, Turkish Prime Minister Ecevit called upon the United
Nations to "stop the genocide of Turkish Cypriots" and declared,
"Turkey has accepted a cease-fire, but will not allow Turkish Cypriots
to be massacred."
The German newspaper Die Zeit wrote on Aug. 30, "The massacre of
Turkish Cypriots in Paphos and Famagusta is the proof of how justified
the Turks were to undertake their intervention."
"Turkish Cypriots, who had suffered from physical attacks since 1963,
called on the guarantor powers to prevent a Greek conquest of the
island. When Britain did nothing Turkey invaded Cyprus and occupied
its northern part. Turkish Cypriots have constitutional right on their
side and understandably fear a renewal of persecution if the Turkish
army withdraws", the Daily Telegraph wrote on Aug. 15, 1996.
At last, peace for the Turkish Cypriots
"Turkey intervened to protect the lives and property of the Turkish-
Cypriots, and to its credit it has done just that. In the 12 years
since, there have been no killings and no massacres" Lord Willis
(Labor) told the House of Lords on Dec. 17, 1986.
On March 12, 1977, Makarios declared, "It is in the name of ENOSIS
that Cyprus has been destroyed."
The United Nations, the Commonwealth, and the rest of the world have
put political expediency before principle and failed to condemn this
appalling behavior. Greek Cypriots are guilty of attempted genocide
but no action has ever been taken against them. Instead they have been
rewarded by recognition as the government of all Cyprus. The Turkish
Cypriots by contrast were frozen out of the United Nations, the
Commonwealth and almost every other international organization.
©Assembly of Turkish American Associations
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