US National Holiday??
Hillary Israeli
OK. I just tried to call Graco Baby Products to find out where the heck
around here I can look at, touch, and play around with a Graco DuoGlider.
I got a voicemail thingy that said "in observance of the national holiday,
our office is closed." WTF? I checked my calendar, and asked my mom, and
my best friend, and none of us are aware of any US holiday falling on
today's date. Help. WTF are the talking about? OH, I also checked
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/holidays.html and it isn't there either.
FWIW, this is really irritating and making me rethink even wanting to buy
any of their products - ESPECIALLY if they are making some kind of vague
reference to Good Friday being a national holiday.
--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net in...@hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)
Stephanie Scales
> FWIW, this is really irritating and making me rethink even wanting to buy
> any of their products - ESPECIALLY if they are making some kind of vague
> reference to Good Friday being a national holiday.
I imagine that they are referring to Good Friday -- it's not uncommon
for some businesses to be closed on Christian holidays, as I'm sure you know.
The thing with the voicemail is probably a standard message that they
chose not to fix/change when deciding to close today. I'd be annoyed,
too. Although I'd probably call them back to see if it happened again,
but I'm like that.
-Stephanie
Megan
<S.Sc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
I think they were wrong to refer to it as a national holiday if it in
fact isn't (though I thought it was in the US, but there you go). I
think though they do have the right to close today if they wish .
That they are closed would not be a reason to stop buying their
products IMO. After all, it would be pretty offensive of me to say
"I'm never going to that store again because they closed for Eid", or
"I'll not shop there because they are closed on Saturdays" (when I
lived in North London, that was a fairly common thing, being closed on
Saturdays).
Megan
--
Megan Farr Montgomery Wolverhampton, England
Lille kat, lille kat, lille kat på vejen
Hvis er du, Hvis er du
Jeg er sgu' min egen
- Piet Hein
Hillary Israeli
Stephanie Scales <S.Sc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
*Hillary Israeli wrote:
*
*> FWIW, this is really irritating and making me rethink even wanting to buy
*> any of their products - ESPECIALLY if they are making some kind of vague
*> reference to Good Friday being a national holiday.
*
*I imagine that they are referring to Good Friday -- it's not uncommon
*for some businesses to be closed on Christian holidays, as I'm sure you know.
That is of course true, but I have never heard anyone refer to one as a
"national holiday," unless it is a national holiday.
*
*The thing with the voicemail is probably a standard message that they
*chose not to fix/change when deciding to close today. I'd be annoyed,
*too. Although I'd probably call them back to see if it happened again,
*but I'm like that.
Well, knowing me, I'll probably call them and complain at some point.
Hillary Israeli
Megan <me...@farr-montgomery.com> wrote:
*I think they were wrong to refer to it as a national holiday if it in
*fact isn't (though I thought it was in the US, but there you go). I
*think though they do have the right to close today if they wish .
*That they are closed would not be a reason to stop buying their
*products IMO. After all, it would be pretty offensive of me to say
*"I'm never going to that store again because they closed for Eid", or
Oh, don't get me wrong - I think they can close whenever they want for
whatever reason they want! If they want to close to observe Happy Rabbit
Prancing Day, fine. If they want to close to observe the Pope's birthday,
fine. But if they want to close to observe a religious holiday, and then
claim that it is a national holiday (with the implication that I should be
observing it as well as a US national) then they can fuck right off,
pardon my language but it REALLY pisses me off as you might have gathered.
The US has not adopted Christianity as a federal religion yet!
Hillary Israeli
Jess <jess...@pobox.com> wrote:
*>FWIW, this is really irritating and making me rethink even wanting to buy
*>any of their products - ESPECIALLY if they are making some kind of vague
*>reference to Good Friday being a national holiday.
*
*They're run by evangelical Christians. Once I learned this, I
*promptly stopped buying their products. Apparently they have some
*very interesting practices for their employees (i.e. mandatory Bible
*study), and I buy things from secular companies.
Hmm. Do you have any references for this? That's really out there.
Stephanie Scales
> They're run by evangelical Christians. Once I learned this, I
> promptly stopped buying their products. Apparently they have some
> very interesting practices for their employees (i.e. mandatory Bible
> study), and I buy things from secular companies.
Really? Where did you hear/read about this?
I'm surprised that there aren't any little fish on their advertising,
then, as is so common in this area. :-/
As an aside, I tend to choose away from companies who use the religion
of the owners to sell their goods/services. It just makes me uncomfortable.
-Stephanie, whose daughter still likes her Graco swing...
Alena Carroll
"Stephanie Scales" <S.Sc...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3CA4A8D6...@worldnet.att.net...
I don't know a whole lot about Graco, except that they annoyed me by
recalling the car seat I have (SnugRide) and making it rather difficult to
find out if ours is or is not defective. DD has outgrown both the carseat
and the swing, anyway, so we have no Graco products in use right now. And
after the carseat recall fiasco, and I am not rushing to buy any more.
As far as holidays are concerned, I like my company's floating holiday
policy. At the same time, if you choose to work on Christian holidays and
have to work with other people, you might as well not bother. I have to do a
lot of work on my own, so I am actually very productive as the phone doesn't
ring.
Alena
Carrie L Leonard
Hillary Israeli <hil...@hillary.net> wrote:
>
>FWIW, this is really irritating and making me rethink even wanting to buy
>any of their products - ESPECIALLY if they are making some kind of vague
>reference to Good Friday being a national holiday.
Geez Hillary, I'd rethink too, if I were you. Good Friday most certainly
is NOT a national holiday. Growing up in CA, I had no idea that ppl would
even consider the day a holiday, until I moved to Maryland. And here in
HI it is a state holiday (I don't get the day off -- not a state
employee). But I personally think it's AWEFUL that it's a sanctioned
state holiday -- I don't think it's right. Unless they start giving us
Yom Kippur off or something.
Actually, now that I think about it, we do have lots of state holidays for
Hawaiian ali'i. Not really the same, but still. I still think the Good
Friday holiday is wrong....
Carrie
Kris Hildrum
Carrie L Leonard <car...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
>Actually, now that I think about it, we do have lots of state holidays for
>Hawaiian ali'i. Not really the same, but still. I still think the Good
>Friday holiday is wrong....
Why is it any more wrong than Christmas as a holiday? (If you
think Christmas as a holiday is equally wrong, I'm not going to argue with
you, but your statement implied that the Good Friday holiday in particular
was wrong, not just any religious holiday.)
Kris
Hillary Israeli
Kris Hildrum <hil...@kazoo.CS.Berkeley.EDU> wrote:
*In article <a82aj2$1hp$1...@news.hawaii.edu>,
*Carrie L Leonard <car...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
*>Actually, now that I think about it, we do have lots of state holidays for
*>Hawaiian ali'i. Not really the same, but still. I still think the Good
*>Friday holiday is wrong....
*
* Why is it any more wrong than Christmas as a holiday? (If you
*think Christmas as a holiday is equally wrong, I'm not going to argue with
*you, but your statement implied that the Good Friday holiday in particular
*was wrong, not just any religious holiday.)
It very much annoys me that Christmas is a federal holiday here in the
USA. That said, it is what it is and I can't change it. I would not be
upset if I phoned a company on Christmas, only to be told that they were
closed in observation of the national holiday. It is, in fact, a national
holiday. Good Friday, on the other hand, is not, and it offends me in some
way to be told that it is or by insinuation should be considered one.
FWIW.
HollyLewis
>the
>company that I never knew - for example, Graco stands for "God Rewards
>All
>Christian Organizations" and the company used to have "voluntary"
>bible
>studies 2 or 3 times a week. You didn't have to go to them, but you
>were a
>lot less likely to get promoted if you didn't.
>
Oh. My.
Methinks perhaps we won't buy any more Graco products either. Well, at least
not if there's a reasonable alternative. Though of course I don't know
anything about the practices of the other baby-gear companies. Sigh.
Holly
Hillary Israeli
I found this http://watch.pair.com/database.html which has this guy:
Robert Cone - CNP Board of Governors (1996). Former co-owner and present
director, Graco Childrens Products, Inc.
on their list. I'm not sure what this is a list OF, though - people with
disturbing politics, it seems like? The watch.pair.com site itself is
clearly Christian, but doesn't seem to link directly to the database site.
Can anyone make heads or tails of this??
Hillary Israeli
Hillary Israeli <hil...@hillary.net> wrote:
*OK, I did a bunch of searches for Graco and Christian and stuff like that.
*I found this http://watch.pair.com/database.html which has this guy:
*Robert Cone - CNP Board of Governors (1996). Former co-owner and present
*director, Graco Childrens Products, Inc.
*on their list. I'm not sure what this is a list OF, though - people with
*disturbing politics, it seems like? The watch.pair.com site itself is
*clearly Christian, but doesn't seem to link directly to the database site.
*Can anyone make heads or tails of this??
*
Oh, duh. I just found the link: http://watch.pair.com/cnp.html
This is the Council for National Policy. The names in the database are
members of this gruop. So the director of Graco is on the board of this
CNP group, which if you read about it is very weird.
Megan
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>I'm extremely upset that Christmas is a legal holiday as well. Mind
>you, I don't get a lot done on Christmas besides finally get some
>peace and quiet and eat Chinese food and watch movies I had the
>foresight to rent on 23 December, but I wish that Christianity wasn't
>state sanctioned. I like places with floating holiday policies -- I'd
>prefer to take off Samhain over Christmas any day.
At my work they close down completely for Christmas and Easter (and I
don't think the public would tolerate changing that), but there is a
list of other religion's holidays that employees can request off (as
long as they are a member of that religion) in addition to the
Christian ones. If for some reason they can't have that day off (say
because it would prevent services being available to the public) then
they receive enhanced pay in line with what someone working Christmas,
Easter or a bank holiday would receive, plus an extra day off in lieu.
IIRC you can apply for up to 10 such days off a year.
The same applies for national holidays from your country of origin,
which I think means I can apply for Waitangi Day and ANZAC day off,
though suspect I would be turned down!
Kris Hildrum
Hillary Israeli <hil...@hillary.net> wrote:
>*In article <a82aj2$1hp$1...@news.hawaii.edu>,
>*Carrie L Leonard <car...@Hawaii.Edu> wrote:
>*>Actually, now that I think about it, we do have lots of state holidays for
>*>Hawaiian ali'i. Not really the same, but still. I still think the Good
>*>Friday holiday is wrong....
>*
>* Why is it any more wrong than Christmas as a holiday? (If you
>*think Christmas as a holiday is equally wrong, I'm not going to argue with
>*you, but your statement implied that the Good Friday holiday in particular
>*was wrong, not just any religious holiday.)
>
>It very much annoys me that Christmas is a federal holiday here in the
>USA. That said, it is what it is and I can't change it. I would not be
>upset if I phoned a company on Christmas, only to be told that they were
>closed in observation of the national holiday. It is, in fact, a national
>holiday. Good Friday, on the other hand, is not, and it offends me in some
>way to be told that it is or by insinuation should be considered one.
>FWIW.
This, I also understand, though I wouldn't react the same as you.
But I think see Carrie talking about that issue (saying something
is a national holiday when it isn't). What I was trying to understand was
whether she thought all goverment mandated religious holidays were wrong
(not just annoying), or whether only some were wrong, and how to tell
which was which.
Kris
Megan
Israeli) wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>Oh, duh. I just found the link: http://watch.pair.com/cnp.html
>This is the Council for National Policy. The names in the database are
>members of this gruop. So the director of Graco is on the board of this
>CNP group, which if you read about it is very weird.
Though there is some other, fairly weird stuff said by that site. I'm
not saying they are wrong about the CNP, but OTOH what they say about
British society and the educational establishment at
http://watch.pair.com/cnp2.html#fabian is pretty out there actually!
Carrie L Leonard
I think Christmas as a state holiday is wrong also. I like Alena's
company's model of floating holidays. I think that you most definitely
should be able to get the time off work if you are celebrating a religious
holiday, but I think it borders on state-sanctioning of a particular
religion to make the day a state holiday.
Carrie
Kris Hildrum
Jess <jess...@pobox.com> wrote:
>> Why is it any more wrong than Christmas as a holiday? (If you
>>think Christmas as a holiday is equally wrong, I'm not going to argue with
>>you, but your statement implied that the Good Friday holiday in particular
>>was wrong, not just any religious holiday.)
>
>you, I don't get a lot done on Christmas besides finally get some
>peace and quiet and eat Chinese food and watch movies I had the
>foresight to rent on 23 December, but I wish that Christianity wasn't
>state sanctioned. I like places with floating holiday policies -- I'd
>prefer to take off Samhain over Christmas any day.
I think a floating holiday policy better, but it wouldn't work in
all situations. Schools, for one, would be a bit problematic. My wedding
would have been difficult to arrange had there been no winter break.
Kris
aMAZon
Hillary Israeli wrote:
> OK. I just tried to call Graco Baby Products to find out where the heck
> around here I can look at, touch, and play around with a Graco DuoGlider.
> I got a voicemail thingy that said "in observance of the national holiday,
> our office is closed." WTF? I checked my calendar, and asked my mom, and
> my best friend, and none of us are aware of any US holiday falling on
> today's date. Help. WTF are the talking about? OH, I also checked
> http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/holidays.html and it isn't there either.
>
> FWIW, this is really irritating and making me rethink even wanting to buy
> any of their products - ESPECIALLY if they are making some kind of vague
> reference to Good Friday being a national holiday.
Maybe they figure if the stock market is closed, it must be a national
holiday?
--
aMAZon
zesz...@worldnet.att.net
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood."
Julie
>OK. I just tried to call Graco Baby Products to find out where the heck
>around here I can look at, touch, and play around with a Graco DuoGlider.
I saw one at my local Babies 'R Us but I'm very unhappy with Graco. I don't
like the way they are handling their latest car seat recall (and yes, Amanda's
infant seat is part of the recall - we tried a Century seat first but it didn't
fit in the car so we had to return it) and I didn't like the way her swing
operated. The Pack 'N Play is okay that we have (a hand me down) but the hand
me down stroller has been "discontinued" so I can't get a new seat cover for
it. It's all stained and nasty from when my SIL gave it to me. GHraco's answer
was that I should buy a new stroller. I have a perfectly good Combi stroller
but the Graco was just an extra for my neighborhood where there's lots of
construction from new houses and tearing up the roads.
Just from SIL's experience, she gave up on using her Duo Glider fairly early.
It was hard to maneuver and usually when she went out, there were two adults so
they just used two regular strollers.
This Good Friday/National holiday business is RIDICULOUS.
Julie
Jean
"Hillary Israeli" wrote
>
> OK. I just tried to call Graco Baby Products to find out where the heck
> around here I can look at, touch, and play around with a Graco DuoGlider.
That's a stroller system, isn't it. We chose not to get any of the Graco
strollers because they didn't seem as sturdy or as well made as some of the
others on the market. JMO, of course.
And now, having read Jess' post, I'm even more glad that I didn't and I'll
be avoiding the rest of their products as much as possible.
>
> FWIW, this is really irritating and making me rethink even wanting to buy
> any of their products - ESPECIALLY if they are making some kind of vague
> reference to Good Friday being a national holiday.
I know a *lot* of people think Good Friday is a national holiday here (it
isn't) and the banks do close for the day for historical (i.e. union)
reasons which only confuses the issue even more.
Of course I'm in the middle of "Easter Break" right now, though I was very
careful with my students to simply talk about "the holiday" since a sizeable
proportion of them are Muslim or other non-Christian denomination.
Jean
--
This return address is unread - email replies may be sent to jeanp AT eircom
DOT net.
Hillary Israeli
Julie <jdh...@aol.comedian> wrote:
*Hillary wrote:
*>OK. I just tried to call Graco Baby Products to find out where the heck
*>around here I can look at, touch, and play around with a Graco DuoGlider.
*
*I saw one at my local Babies 'R Us but I'm very unhappy with Graco. I don't
*like the way they are handling their latest car seat recall (and yes, Amanda's
*infant seat is part of the recall - we tried a Century seat first but it didn't
*fit in the car so we had to return it) and I didn't like the way her swing
FWIW Graco owns Century, too.
*Just from SIL's experience, she gave up on using her Duo Glider fairly early.
*It was hard to maneuver and usually when she went out, there were two adults so
*they just used two regular strollers.
Ack.
There are no good double strollers, I guess.
Hillary Israeli
Jean <iui...@hotmail.com> wrote:
*<baby products mentioned>
*
*"Hillary Israeli" wrote
*>
*> OK. I just tried to call Graco Baby Products to find out where the heck
*> around here I can look at, touch, and play around with a Graco DuoGlider.
*
*That's a stroller system, isn't it. We chose not to get any of the Graco
No. It's just a stroller. It is not a travel system.
Jean
"Hillary Israeli" wrote
> *
> *That's a stroller system, isn't it. We chose not to get any of the Graco
>
> No. It's just a stroller. It is not a travel system.
>
Sorry - different wording for the same product :-). Still doesn't change my
opinion of the quality of their products.
Jean - who spent an obscene amount of money on a combined travel system
today
Liz D.
"Hillary Israeli" <hil...@hillary.net> wrote
> There are no good double strollers, I guess.
Hillary -
Geri turned me on to Zooper Strollers, which IIRC were recommended to her by
a friend who's a buyer of baby gear for some store. Anyway, have a look @
http://www.zooperstrollers.com/products/twinair/default.htm
--Liz
Stacy Lynn
>you, I don't get a lot done on Christmas besides finally get some
>peace and quiet and eat Chinese food and watch movies I had the
>foresight to rent on 23 December, but I wish that Christianity wasn't
>state sanctioned. I like places with floating holiday policies -- I'd
>prefer to take off Samhain over Christmas any day.
We have floating holidays. Sometimes we are closed on Christmas,
sometimes we are open. Same with Thanksgiving, New Years, and pretty
much all the national holidays. If we end up being open, generally,
not all the supervisors need to work since the day is usually much
slower. So they work out a system and if you get stuck working a
holiday, you get a day off within a month or 2 somewhere else. Its a
nice policy!
Stacy
Stacy Lynn
>>FWIW, this is really irritating and making me rethink even wanting to buy
>>any of their products - ESPECIALLY if they are making some kind of vague
>>reference to Good Friday being a national holiday.
>
>They're run by evangelical Christians. Once I learned this, I
>promptly stopped buying their products. Apparently they have some
>very interesting practices for their employees (i.e. mandatory Bible
>study), and I buy things from secular companies.
While that is your opinion and certainly your right to do so, it seems
a little weird to me. Something about that just makes me
uncomfortable. Its one thing to not have anything to do with a
relgion, but if that is their company, and their employees are fine
with having to go to Bible Study or whatnot, I don't see what that is
a problem. I would like to go to Bible Study and I would hope that if
I was having a garage sale or something, people wouldn't not buy from
me because I like to go to Church on Sunday morning. Now, if my
garage sale profits actually went to my church, that is a different
story, and so I can understand if this company (or any Christian
company) donates a large amount to Christian charities, and you or
anyone else decides not to support them for that reason. But to not
support them just because they are owned and operated as a Christian
busieness (even if their products are secular) makes me very
uncomfortable.
Geri
"aMAZon" <zesz...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3CA4DCFC...@worldnet.att.net...
> Maybe they figure if the stock market is closed, it must be a national
> holiday?
Yeah, but...how many people pay *that* much attention to whether the stock
market is open or not? I mean, *I* do 'cause I live in NYC and 'cause if the
market is closed my DH is off :-) But the Post Office was open today. Banks
were open. All of the other bank holiday/national holiday stuff did *not*
apply.
Geri
"Liz D." <ph...@fake.com> wrote in message
news:aH7p8.55852$u77.15...@news02.optonline.net...
> Geri turned me on to Zooper Strollers, which IIRC were recommended to her
by
> a friend who's a buyer of baby gear for some store. Anyway, have a look @
> http://www.zooperstrollers.com/products/twinair/default.htm
Yeah, but the only problem with the Zoopers is that some of them weigh a
flippin' ton. Their double stroller weighs 43 pounds! (and it doesn't accept
an infant seat, which Hillary wants). My SIL had a Graco something-or-other
that weighed 30-odd pounds and *that* was ridiculously unwieldy for getting
in and out of the car (which she did often, given that they live in the
'burbs). I can't imagine picking up a 43-pound stroller all the time.
(Comparison point: the Maclaren Opus Duo double stroller weighs 27 pounds.)
Of course, I will not be putting the stroller in and out of the car all the
time, so we may well graduate to a Zooper when Junior gets out of the infant
seat/infant stroller phase.
Stacy Lynn
>>While that is your opinion and certainly your right to do so, it seems
>>a little weird to me. Something about that just makes me
>>uncomfortable. Its one thing to not have anything to do with a
>>relgion, but if that is their company, and their employees are fine
>>with having to go to Bible Study or whatnot, I don't see what that is
>>a problem.
>
>Well, as Meghan's post that I quoted pointed out, it really sounded
>like Christianity was a directive handed down.
>
>But yes, I don't patronize Christian businesses when I can avoid it.
>I don't mind patronizing Christian individuals, but ideally I would
>patronize a pagan-owned business, then a secular business (which is
>what it tends to be), and then a Christian business only as an extreme
>last resort. To me, it's no different than blacks making a conscious
>effort to patronize black-owned banks and businesses, or Asian
>Americans patronizing Asian American owned businesses where possible.
>
>Also, when I realize that I would be putting my money in the pockets
>of those who generally work to make my life a living hell, I choose
>not to. I'm not saying this is a general Christian attitude (as there
>are tolerant Christians, of course), but in light of anti-pagan
>discrimination AND the evangelical Christian thing, I'd betcha that
>some of those dollars would end up being sent to Pat Robertson. No
>thanks.
Thank you for the explanation. It makes much more sense now, and I
totally understand where you are coming from. I just remember the
attitude many of my friends had in college and high school. There are
some stores and entertainment companies in town owned by Christians,
but do not tout it in any way, nor do they make large public donations
to Christian charities. Its just that the owner was Christian and was
not afraid to say so. It upset me that they would be so outright
anti-Christian right to my face. They didn't have an alternate
business that supported their view to patronize, they just refused to
have anything to do with a Christian owned business. It seemed
hypocrytical to me as they had no problem being my friend and treating
me with respect and then in the same breath saying terrible things
about someone else who was Christian for no other reason than the
person's religion. When I called them on it, their response? "You're
a *cool* Christian!" Hmmm... ok!
Anyway, that was the attitude I was used to when people didn't
patronize Christian stores, and I'm glad that is not where you are
coming from!!
jennifer c
We've got the Zooper Buddy. For the most part, it's a great stroller. Heck, it's
even got *suspension.* It's easy to maneuver, and the basket's huge.
However, I have had a number of issues with the quality. Both back tires went
completely flat within a week of first using the stroller, and we had to take
them to the bike repair shop to have the part inside them (I'm sorry -- I'm so
tired I can't think of the word I want right now) replaced. Within two weeks,
all of the snaps that hold various parts of the cover together had torn off.
Friends of ours have had the exact same problem with their Zooper Buddy, too.
When I complained to the store that sold me the stroller, they suggested just
calling Zooper and asking for a new cover. The salesperson told me that Zooper's
very good about that sort of thing. I haven't had a chance to do it yet, so who
knows...
I'd still recommend Zooper strollers to anyone, but with the caveat that there
may be some quality issues to deal with...
-jennifer c., who just used the Zooper today to take Olivia to the park
-------------------------------------------
email: jennac [at] newsguy [dot] com
Shawn & Joy Pennington
"Hillary Israeli" <hil...@hillary.net> wrote in message
news:slrnaa996v...@manx.misty.com...
>
> OK. I just tried to call Graco Baby Products to find out where the heck
> our office is closed." WTF? I checked my calendar, and asked my mom, and
> my best friend, and none of us are aware of any US holiday falling on
> today's date. Help. WTF are the talking about? OH, I also checked
> http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/holidays.html and it isn't there either.
>
> any of their products - ESPECIALLY if they are making some kind of vague
> reference to Good Friday being a national holiday.
I can understand how that would be upsetting to a non-Christian. My only
thought is...I know many businesses use today (friday) to recognize the
"national holiday" of Easter. Maybe that's the reason for the voice mail??
Again, no comfort to non-Christians...
Joy
Alena Carroll
"Geri" <clar...@NOSPAMearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BB8p8.74542$in3.23...@typhoon.nyc.rr.com...
>
> Of course, I will not be putting the stroller in and out of the car all
the
> time, so we may well graduate to a Zooper when Junior gets out of the
infant
> seat/infant stroller phase.
>
never realized it until strolling with DD, but I need to be able to pick her
up with the stroller quite a bit. That's one of the reasons I love my
Maclaren Techno. It's lightweight enough that I can carry it easily up any
steps, and it's easy to maneuver in the narrow isles of Manhattan stores.
It's not cheap, but I think it's ideal for city life. I've only been using
it a couple of months, but multiple times daily and so far so good.
Alena
Barbara Warner
>
> In <a7a9au8qfg6kstu1r...@4ax.com>,
> Megan <me...@farr-montgomery.com> wrote:
>
> *I think they were wrong to refer to it as a national holiday if it in
> *fact isn't (though I thought it was in the US, but there you go). I
> *think though they do have the right to close today if they wish .
> *That they are closed would not be a reason to stop buying their
> *products IMO. After all, it would be pretty offensive of me to say
> *"I'm never going to that store again because they closed for Eid", or
>
> Oh, don't get me wrong - I think they can close whenever they want for
> whatever reason they want! If they want to close to observe Happy Rabbit
> Prancing Day, fine. If they want to close to observe the Pope's birthday,
> fine. But if they want to close to observe a religious holiday, and then
> claim that it is a national holiday (with the implication that I should be
> observing it as well as a US national) then they can fuck right off,
> pardon my language but it REALLY pisses me off as you might have gathered.
> The US has not adopted Christianity as a federal religion yet!
Ah, but maybe they're just being imprecise with their language -- sounds
to me as if today (Good Friday) is actually a statutory holiday in
most/all places in the US. The company recording should have therefore
announced they were closed for a statutory holiday. Presumably any
national holidays are really all stat holidays anyway, so they could
probably have just one recording and it would be correct.
But, upon reading bits of the splinter thread, it sounds as if this
company really does think today should be or *is* a national holiday!
Basically, I wouldn't fault a company for being closed on a statutory
holiday particularly if the local laws require them to be closed on stat
holidays -- but I might be miffed at them calling it a 'national
holiday' since it's clearly not. Stat and national holidays are
different things, AFAIK.
Cheers,
Barbara
rangitotogirl
> That is of course true, but I have never heard anyone refer to one as a
> "national holiday," unless it is a national holiday.
>
Over here it is a national holiday and businesses MUST close or they will be
fined. Sunday is the same.
Hillary Israeli
Shawn & Joy Pennington <shawn...@earthlink.net> wrote:
*
*"Hillary Israeli" <hil...@hillary.net> wrote in message
*news:slrnaa996v...@manx.misty.com...
*>
*> http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/holidays.html and it isn't there either.
*>
*I can understand how that would be upsetting to a non-Christian. My only
*thought is...I know many businesses use today (friday) to recognize the
*"national holiday" of Easter. Maybe that's the reason for the voice mail??
Easter is also not a national holiday (see the URL I posted).
Hillary Israeli
Barbara Warner <al...@ncf.ca> wrote:
*Ah, but maybe they're just being imprecise with their language -- sounds
*to me as if today (Good Friday) is actually a statutory holiday in
*most/all places in the US. The company recording should have therefore
I don't know what a statutory holiday is, but I have never (as a grownup
:)) had the day off for Good Friday, nor have the markets, banks, or post
offices been closed. So, not much of a holiday as far as I can tell!
Julie
>In our case, the employer is religious-based, so it makes sense.
When I worked for the National Cathedral (religious based), Good Friday and
Christmas Eve were half days off and Christmas was a full day off for most
employees.
The reasoning I heard for that was that they didn't want non-essential
personnel (teachers at the schools, custodians, gardeners, gift shop employees)
infringing on worship in any way - i.e., having a leaf blower going during
services would be bad.
I worked in Development and while Good Friday, Easter and Christmas were not
mandatory work days, I was there for all of them and there was aggressive
asking for volunteers (at extra pay). This was our busiest time of year!
One of my favorite memories concerned Christmas Eve services on a cold, rainy
night. The President was expected so all of the worshippers were asked to empty
their pockets before going through the magnetometers. It was actually fun
standing out in the cold drizzle without an umbrella with a big smile on my
face. It was more fun going back to the Deanery afterwards for a cup of hot
chocolate. :)
Julie
Robin
> On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:53:30 -0500, Jess <jess...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >They're run by evangelical Christians. Once I learned this, I
> >promptly stopped buying their products. Apparently they have some
> >very interesting practices for their employees (i.e. mandatory Bible
> >study), and I buy things from secular companies.
>
> While that is your opinion and certainly your right to do so, it seems
> a little weird to me. Something about that just makes me
> uncomfortable. Its one thing to not have anything to do with a
> relgion, but if that is their company, and their employees are fine
> with having to go to Bible Study or whatnot, I don't see what that is
> a problem.
While I'm not well-versed in employment law, mandatory bible study
sounds illegal to me. You can't discriminate in hiring on the basis of
religion, so how could you require that employees study the bible,
unless it was in any way related to the job (say, a bible editor)?
I don't put a lot of effort into it, but I certainly avoid companies
whom I *know* engage in practices I don't agree with. For some people
that means avoiding non-dolphin safe tuna, for me it means avoiding
companies which require bible study nor those who fund anti-abortion
groups (Dominos).
Julie
>FWIW Graco owns Century, too.
Here's my two cents on the Century infant car seat we had: not only did the
base not fit properly in our car with the baby in it, but the latch that
detaches the seat from the base so you can cart your baby arround in the
carrier didn't work properly. Instead of carting Amanda in the carrier, we had
to unbuckle her everytime. It went back to the store less than 48 hours after
she was born. I was unable to do anything about it before she was born so we
figured it would be okay for a couple of days.
>There are no good double strollers, I guess.
I saw a Combi stroller that has one in front, one in back when I was in a baby
boutique about a year ago (Lewis of London). I don't know if it would
accommodate an infant carrier or not but I was surprised since I thought they
only made side by side double strollers.
Julie (who owns a Combi single and just signed Amanda up for baby swimming)
Leslie Deak
On Fri, 29 Mar 2002, Hillary Israeli wrote:
> our office is closed." WTF? I checked my calendar, and asked my mom, and
> my best friend, and none of us are aware of any US holiday falling on
> today's date. Help. WTF are the talking about? OH, I also checked
> http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/holidays.html and it isn't there either.
As I'm sure has already ben confirmed, Friday is NOT a federal holiday.
That said, I had teh day off due to my compressed schedule and the fact
that my parents are visiting. But the Feds are not off.
-Leslie
Kris Hildrum
>Ah, but maybe they're just being imprecise with their language -- sounds
>to me as if today (Good Friday) is actually a statutory holiday in
>most/all places in the US. The company recording should have therefore
>announced they were closed for a statutory holiday. Presumably any
>national holidays are really all stat holidays anyway, so they could
>probably have just one recording and it would be correct.
Nope. The only places around here that I know give Good Friday
off are schools. Most businesses are open as usual. It took me many
years to figure out that Spring Break is normally associated with Easter.
Kris
Hillary Israeli
Julie <jdh...@aol.comedian> wrote:
*Here's my two cents on the Century infant car seat we had: not only did the
*base not fit properly in our car with the baby in it, but the latch that
*detaches the seat from the base so you can cart your baby arround in the
*carrier didn't work properly. Instead of carting Amanda in the carrier, we had
*to unbuckle her everytime. It went back to the store less than 48 hours after
*she was born. I was unable to do anything about it before she was born so we
*figured it would be okay for a couple of days.
That sucks. We do own a Century SmartFit Something (Plus? Elite? Don't
remember) and it was great.
*
*I saw a Combi stroller that has one in front, one in back when I was in a baby
*boutique about a year ago (Lewis of London). I don't know if it would
*accommodate an infant carrier or not but I was surprised since I thought they
Yeah, that's a great stroller. They don't make it anymore.
*Julie (who owns a Combi single and just signed Amanda up for baby swimming)
We have a Combi too. Love it.
Jacob LOVES baby swimming :)
Barbara Warner
> I don't know what a statutory holiday is, but I have never (as a grownup
> :)) had the day off for Good Friday, nor have the markets, banks, or post
> offices been closed. So, not much of a holiday as far as I can tell!
Oh, I stand corrected then, in that case!
FYI, (not that it matters, but well, maybe it's interesting to someone!)
a 'statutory holiday' is a "day off" mandated by legislation, hence
"statutory". It may be a Commonwealth phrase that isn't used by the US,
but in Canada atleast there's a difference between a 'statutory
holiday',and other holidays.
For starters, here's link to a basic definition of "statutory holiday":
http://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/facshts/holidays.htm
(This is a BC definition but it's useful for the point, I believe. Huh
- I just noticed that BC does have Remembrance Day as a stat holiday --
Ontario hasn't had Remembrance Day as a stat holiday for years, if
ever.)
An example of the contrast of "statutory holiday" to "government
holiday":
Easter Friday is a statutory holiday in Ontario. Most places of
employment are closed, and only a select few either emergency or tourist
places are open. For example, we were unable to eat at our favourite
ice cream store yesterday, but we were able to go into the Museum.
Presumably staff at the museum got extra pay and another day off.
Easter Sunday is not a statutory holiday. It is technically a
government holiday and a bank holiday, but neither of these institutions
are open on a Sunday anyway. A lot of stores here voluntarily close on
Easter Sunday, and many municipal services which would normally be open
(the library for example) are closed.
Easter Monday runs on the same principle here: it is a government
holiday and a bank holiday but not a statutory holiday. My DH
presumably has to work on Easter Monday. I didn't have to work on
Easter Monday when I worked in government. If I were in private
practice, I'd probably have to work unless the partners decided
otherwise for practical reasons (can't do any legal filings, many
clients would be unavailable, etc., etc). Most people have to work on
Easter Monday but those in government, banking or those who work closely
with those 'sectors' have the day off (or extra pay and a day in lieu
later as well).
It is confusing for some people -- i.e.:
Our board of directors wasn't sure about our clinic's work schedule
until really recently, so I worked extra hours last week just in case I
'had' to take lieu time to make up for being away on Monday. They've
since decided that we'll have Easter Monday off, period, so that means I
didn't have to work quite as much overtime (I only found this out
Thursday morning!), and I'll be able to kick off early on Friday ;-)
The same kind of thing happened with REmembrance Day (Nov 11)--
government offices were closed anyway, so we got the day off as a
holiday. (It's a no brainer for us when Remembrance Day falls on
Tuesday-Friday (when we're normally at a government location so we
couldn't 'report there' anyway), but this year, it fell on a Monday when
we'd normally be in the office. Not sure why, but we got the day off
anyway....I had a long weekend but DH didn't.)
I think those are the only two major conflicts between statutory
holidays and government/bank holidays in Ontario....We have statutory
holidays on New Year's Day (Jan 1), nothing until Easter Friday (usually
in March or early April), then the Monday closest to May 24th weekend
(Victoria Day), July 1st (Canada Day -- if it falls on a weekend, then
it's observed on a Monday), the first weekend in August (Civic Holiday -
called different names in different places: Toronto declares it Lord
John Graves Simcoe day, Ottawa calls it Col. By day, I think, etc);
Labour Day (first Monday in September); Thanksgiving Monday (first
Monday in October); and Christmas Day (December 25th). Boxing Day
(December 26th) used to be a statutory holiday but no longer.
There's been a bit of a campaign lately to have a federal statutory
holiday in February -- Flag Day, to commemorate the Maple Leaf -- but it
hasn't happened. Personally, I think a lot of Canadian just like the
idea of a long weekend in February and aren't as concerned about having
a day to mark the flag (Canada Day on July 1st does just fine for
that!)....but it hasn't taken off yet.
--Barbara
Amy and Dave
> In <3CA5295F...@ncf.ca>,
> Barbara Warner <al...@ncf.ca> wrote:
>
> *Ah, but maybe they're just being imprecise with their language -- sounds
> *to me as if today (Good Friday) is actually a statutory holiday in
> *most/all places in the US. The company recording should have therefore
>
> I don't know what a statutory holiday is, but I have never (as a grownup
> :)) had the day off for Good Friday, nor have the markets, banks, or post
> offices been closed. So, not much of a holiday as far as I can tell!
>
> --
I had the day off last year because I was working at Raymond James. They
close any day that the stock market is closed. They shouldn't have said
"National". I think they could just say that they are closed for the holiday
and leave it at that. Would anyone be offended if they just said "holiday"
instead of "national holiday"? That recording would work in all situations.
I had a half day yesterday (good Friday), but not because of the holiday. We
took a half day because it was one of the "higher-up" employees' birthday.
It is a small business and they can do that. Hey, I wasn't complaining
especially since I got paid for the whole day.
Teej
>In <3CA5295F...@ncf.ca>,
>Barbara Warner <al...@ncf.ca> wrote:
>*Ah, but maybe they're just being imprecise with their language -- sounds
>*to me as if today (Good Friday) is actually a statutory holiday in
>*most/all places in the US. The company recording should have therefore
>I don't know what a statutory holiday is, but I have never (as a grownup
>:)) had the day off for Good Friday, nor have the markets, banks, or post
>offices been closed. So, not much of a holiday as far as I can tell!
http://www.holidayfestival.com/USA.html#NYSE
Stock Market is closed on Good Friday.
/s
--
Teej
http://www.panix.com/~teej
Geri
"Teej" <te...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:a85bmj$eu7$1...@panix3.panix.com...
Yeah, but it is not closed in religious observance of Good Friday. It *is*
closed on Good Friday, that is true. But the reason is a historical one, not
a religious one -- there was some Big Event that happened in the market on a
Good Friday once (my DH, who is usually good with Wall St. history, is
blanking on exactly what), and the market has closed every Good Friday since
then. It actually has nothing to do with anyone caring about Good Friday as
a Christian holiday (in fact, we find it kinda funny that the market is
closed on Good Friday, since almost everyone we know who works on Wall
Street is Jewish!)
JH
Hillary Israeli wrote:
> In <slrnaa9eju...@manx.misty.com>,
> Hillary Israeli <hil...@hillary.net> wrote:
>
> *OK, I did a bunch of searches for Graco and Christian and stuff like that.
> *I found this http://watch.pair.com/database.html which has this guy:
> *Robert Cone - CNP Board of Governors (1996). Former co-owner and present
> *director, Graco Childrens Products, Inc.
> *on their list. I'm not sure what this is a list OF, though - people with
> *disturbing politics, it seems like? The watch.pair.com site itself is
> *clearly Christian, but doesn't seem to link directly to the database site.
> *Can anyone make heads or tails of this??
> *
>
> Oh, duh. I just found the link: http://watch.pair.com/cnp.html
> This is the Council for National Policy. The names in the database are
> members of this gruop. So the director of Graco is on the board of this
> CNP group, which if you read about it is very weird.
>
Good heavens, Hillary, do you believe everything you read? The site is a link
from a "conspiracy" theory type home page and frankly, some of the stuff they
"report" is rather bizarre.
Richard Cone, former owner and founder of GRACO (which was bought out by
Rubbermaid in 1996) was a member of the Center for National Policy which is
nothing more than a conservative public policy think tank. Big deal! The
Cone family are also big contributors to conservative political PACs, etc. but
that's pretty much a moot point since the family no longer owns GRACO.
All you ladies in this thread who swore off purchasing GRACO products due to
being ill-informed as to their corporate religion now look kind of silly.
JH
Jess wrote:
>
>
> But yes, I don't patronize Christian businesses when I can avoid it.
> I don't mind patronizing Christian individuals, but ideally I would
> patronize a pagan-owned business, then a secular business (which is
> what it tends to be), and then a Christian business only as an extreme
> last resort. To me, it's no different than blacks making a conscious
> effort to patronize black-owned banks and businesses, or Asian
> Americans patronizing Asian American owned businesses where possible.
>
Really? I would have a problem with race or religion based discrimination
since the core idea of equality is that a person is judged by their
character, not the color of their skin or their religious preferences. I
choose to patronize businesses which are ethical, well run, give me a good
value for my money, etc. regardless of the race or religion of the
business owner. Let me give you a little history lesson based on your
above comments of race based business patronization. From the years 1700+-
to early 1800's, black slaves were able to buy their freedom and those of
their family's by farming, making items and selling them. The success at
which many achieved freedom was directly the result of being able to sell
to white people, not just the black community. However, when newer strains
of tobacco made tobacco farming even more profitable (and tobacco farming
being a *very* labor intensive crop), laws were changed to diminish the
exodus of blacks from slavery to freedom by restricting their ability to
sell to white people. It thus became illegal for blacks and whites to
engage in commerce. My own county's history documents the plummeting
decline in slaves purchasing their freedom thereafter.
Restricting commerce between racial groups is short-sighted, ecomonic
failure for minorities. Minority owned businesses which rely primarily on
commerce between members of their own race or religion are surely destined
to fail or not prosper as abundantly as they could have selling to a much
larger market. Using your justification, White Supremacists can
legitimately boycott a local black owned business thus driving him/her out
of business and out of town. Uhh, no thanks.
>
> Also, when I realize that I would be putting my money in the pockets
> of those who generally work to make my life a living hell, I choose
> not to. I'm not saying this is a general Christian attitude (as there
> are tolerant Christians, of course), but in light of anti-pagan
> discrimination AND the evangelical Christian thing, I'd betcha that
> some of those dollars would end up being sent to Pat Robertson. No
> thanks.
>
Your stereotype of Christians is quite narrow minded. I know many who run
the entire political spectrum from ultra liberal to conservative. Had
you declared an intent not to patronize certain businesses based on
political affiliations, a history of political donations, corporate
policies which are based on political positions, etc., I would have
certainly agreed with you.
Kris Hildrum
>Really? I would have a problem with race or religion based discrimination
>since the core idea of equality is that a person is judged by their
>character, not the color of their skin or their religious preferences. I
>choose to patronize businesses which are ethical, well run, give me a good
>value for my money, etc. regardless of the race or religion of the
>business owner. Let me give you a little history lesson based on your
>above comments of race based business patronization. From the years 1700+-
>to early 1800's, black slaves were able to buy their freedom and those of
>their family's by farming, making items and selling them. The success at
>which many achieved freedom was directly the result of being able to sell
>to white people, not just the black community. However, when newer strains
>of tobacco made tobacco farming even more profitable (and tobacco farming
>being a *very* labor intensive crop), laws were changed to diminish the
>exodus of blacks from slavery to freedom by restricting their ability to
>sell to white people. It thus became illegal for blacks and whites to
>engage in commerce. My own county's history documents the plummeting
>decline in slaves purchasing their freedom thereafter.
I agree with some of your later comments, but what does this have
to do with what Jess said? As far as I recall, she said she used religion
to choose between businesses sometimes. She said nothing about creating
laws to mandate anything like that.
Are you saying she's driving Christian business owners out of
business? (Or even that blacks choosing black-owned businesses are
hurting white businesses?) If not, I can't figure out who she's hurting
(except possibly herself because she's choosing inferior products.)
Kris
Hillary Israeli
JH <bas...@thinds.com> wrote:
*> Oh, duh. I just found the link: http://watch.pair.com/cnp.html
*> This is the Council for National Policy. The names in the database are
*> members of this gruop. So the director of Graco is on the board of this
*> CNP group, which if you read about it is very weird.
*>
*
*Good heavens, Hillary, do you believe everything you read? The site is a link
Nope.
*from a "conspiracy" theory type home page and frankly, some of the stuff they
*"report" is rather bizarre.
Is it? I tried to find something like that but couldn't really get there.
My computer kept crashing, though.
*Richard Cone, former owner and founder of GRACO (which was bought out by
*Rubbermaid in 1996) was a member of the Center for National Policy which is
*nothing more than a conservative public policy think tank. Big deal! The
*Cone family are also big contributors to conservative political PACs, etc. but
*that's pretty much a moot point since the family no longer owns GRACO.
He's the director, though, right?
*
*All you ladies in this thread who swore off purchasing GRACO products due to
*being ill-informed as to their corporate religion now look kind of silly.
I didn't swear off anything. I just said their stupid voicemail irritated
me and made me want to rethink buying their stroller (which I wasn't 100%
sold on anyway).
--
Stuart Carter
"Jess" <jess...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:ug7eau478nm6rjojv...@4ax.com...
>
> I have occasion to know many Christians, but of the ones that I've
> known who were of the type to make their businesses Christian instead
> of secular, they tend to be of the extreme conservative bent. I would
> rather set my money on fire than give it to someone who wouldn't be
> averse to sending it to Pat Robertson or to the campaign for Bob Barr.
Jess,
Both Hilary and I are Christians, and I have to ask you - who the h4ll are
Pat Robertson or Bob Barr?
Oh, right - US-ians.... this has *no* relevance to anyone outside the USA.
And, from a UK perspective, I have to agree with JH - your attitude comes
over as very narrow minded and bigoted.
Neither Hilary nor I are what *you* (personally) would necessarily call
"typical" Christians - if I made comments about someone's attitude being
"typically" Chinese, or Hispanic, or whatever, I would expect to be flamed
to a crisp for being a racist - why do so many people seem to think it is
acceptable to make these types of comments about Christians?
I do not pick and choose reailers on the basis of the colour of their skin,
their creed, or religion - I go there if they have something I want or need.
That's all.
This is what I call being a good citizen - obeying the laws of my country.
This is what I call being a good Christian - treat others as you would wish
to be treated yourself.
Just my 2p worth.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.343 / Virus Database: 190 - Release Date: 22/03/2002
Kris Hildrum
Stuart Carter <stuart...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>Oh, right - US-ians.... this has *no* relevance to anyone outside the USA.
>And, from a UK perspective, I have to agree with JH - your attitude comes
>over as very narrow minded and bigoted.
It doesn't (or very little), and for once this isn't self-centered
Americanism at work. Jess is talking about which business she supports
locally--I sincerely doubt that she was thinking much about international
companies, and basing her decision on her experiences here in the US.
I'm not going to tell you some horror story of oppression and suffering,
because I haven't seen anything like that. But Christianity is the
dominant religion in the US, and more than that, some people are really
busy pushing it. And not just pushing Christianity (which I
understand--afterall, everyone wants to share good news), but on pushing
"Christian morals" (in quotes because not all Christians agree on what it
means) even to non-Christians. What makes this particularly threatening
is that it comes from a group that holds the majority.
When some political leaders claim to speak for Christians (most don't
explicitly make that claim), how can you blame Jess for believing them?
Finally, let me note that in general, this isn't going to be obvious
unless the business owner choosing to make it so. And if someone puts up
"Christian Dentist" on their door and puts Jesus posters on the ceiling
(as a fine dentist I patronized before I moved did)--that's a business
owner's choice.
That dentist was making a choice to direct his business towards
Christians. To say that Jess is somehow wrong not to rush in and
say "Ooh, yes, I'd love to read the bible in the waiting room and look at
the 'Jesus Help me Hang in There' poster while my teeth are cleaned" seems
silly.
>I do not pick and choose reailers on the basis of the colour of their skin,
>their creed, or religion - I go there if they have something I want or need.
>That's all.
Really? If there was a retailer who was of a religion that believed that
blacks were inferior to whites, you'd have no hesitation is shopping
there? I would.
>This is what I call being a good citizen - obeying the laws of my country.
Jess isn't disobeying any law that I know of. I think an individual is
allowed to use whatever criteria they want when choosing a business to
patronize.
>This is what I call being a good Christian - treat others as you would wish
>to be treated yourself.
Well, yes nice idea.
Kris
Kris Hildrum
Hilary <hil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
>> A corporation that forces Bible study on its employees is incredibly
>> insensitive and unethical.
>
>I've never heard of any business "forcing" Bible study on anyone. I don't
>think you can force someone to study.
No, but you can imply that those who don't give at least the
appearance of studying won't be promoted. Or you can make it clear that
anyone who doesn't pray at the weekly lunch isn't going to be favored in
the company.
I have no idea if the company in question was discriminatory or
not; but I can easily imagine situations where those who are not Christian
would get the short end of the stick.
Kris
Hillary Israeli
Hilary <hil...@spamcop.net> wrote:
*> I have had people telling me that I'm going to hell.
*
*Sorry, but I agree with them. I've had a (non-religious) work colleague
I guess I will meet her there, then. The thing is, when people come up to
you on the sidewalk in front of the synagogue, and say "why haven't you
accepted Jesus? Do you WANT to burn in hell??" it sort of makes you feel
anti-Christian. I know, not all Christians are so obnoxious and
confrontational. But when these incidents occur several times in a row,
well... It is upsetting.
Barbara Warner
> I guess I will meet her there, then. The thing is, when people come up to
> you on the sidewalk in front of the synagogue, and say "why haven't you
> accepted Jesus? Do you WANT to burn in hell??" it sort of makes you feel
> anti-Christian. I know, not all Christians are so obnoxious and
> confrontational. But when these incidents occur several times in a row,
> well... It is upsetting.
Hillary, first of all I sympathize with you -- this sort of behaviour is
unacceptable in my book and it's plain wrong IMO. Please also try to
remember, however, that these people do *not* represent the views of the
vast majority of Christians, just as the more radical/extremist persons
in the Jewish faith do not represent the majority of Jews (atleast in
the North American milieu....That is to say, I don't judge Judiasm based
on the actions of the ultra conservative who have strict dicta or rules
about the separation of the sexes/genders, who can work outside the
home, etc., and it would be nice to know that my Jewish friends aren't
judging the whole of Christianity on the 'outliers' of *my* religion.)
Personally, I find the whole "Jews for Jesus" conversion idea
distasteful, and feel bad that my sister is getting inundated with such
literature from our grandmother....My BIL is (nominally) Christian, but
his formerly Christian father converted to Judiasm before marrying BIL's
step-mother. In turn, this means my nephew has a 'set' of Jewish
grandparents although neither of his parents (nor aunts or uncles by
marriage) are Jewish. Our grandmother has it in her head that my nephew
(her great grandson, therefore) is Jewish (he's not!), *and* that it is
important for Sherri to convert her ILs to the "Jews for Jesus"
movement. She has been sending what we consider inappropriate materials
to my sister's family for ages -- and has really picked up the pace
since Sebastian was born.
All of this is on top of our grandmother's usual literalist,
extremist-evangelical (*) message -- which leads her to send religious
materials to the rest of us on a regular basis. My father once
convinced her to stop sending him such 'materials' but I haven't a clue
how to stop sending them to me -- and my *atheist* husband. We've
basically given up, since she's 93 and it's much much easier now to
ignore her than have a battle with her (which would be far more hurtful
to her than to us, really, I think). Even Dh has kindly made no comment
about the religious birthday cards she's sent him (something he once
claimed he'd raise a stink about, if it ever happened; thankfully cooler
heads have prevailed.)
Ugh. Why can't some people just keep their religion to themselves?!? I
know, conversion is a major tenant of some of these 'denominations' or
groups (not sure what to call them) but it's still difficult to deal
with. Argh.
--Barbara
(*) I know not all evangelical Christians are like this, but she's
definitely in the Billy Graham/100 Huntley Street/tv ministry state of
mind....
Julie
>Oh, right - US-ians.... this has *no* relevance to anyone outside the USA.
Pet peeve here....
I'm an AMERICAN, not a "US-ian" or "USA-ian" or whatever stupid names people
are coming up with lately to call Americans instead of Americans.
Julie
Julie
>The thing is, when people come up to
>you on the sidewalk in front of the synagogue, and say "why haven't you
>accepted Jesus? Do you WANT to burn in hell??" it sort of makes you feel
>anti-Christian.
Unfortunately, something similar happened at my grandmother's funeral. I have
some Christian relatives and one of them made a comment at the gravsite about
how my grandmother was now burning in hell. It was just as inappropriate as my
Jewish nephew who has been brought up with no discipline and no manners dancing
around singing "Gramma's dead! Gramma's dead!"
Julie (who has a couple of really horrible relatives but thankfully they are a
very very small minority)
Barbara Warner
I think this usage started because strictly speaking, people from the
United States of America are *not* the only "Americans"....people from
Canada, Mexico and nations in Central *and* South America are also
"Americans".
I personally started using USian on this ng precisely *because* people
from the USA wanted to use it, so that their 'title' would be precise
and inoffensive to others. I personally use American in every day
language to mean "of the United States of America" (i.e. "American
ideals are overtaking Ontario political ideology!"),so I know what you
mean -- but it is imprecise. Canadians don't typically 'care' much, but
I believe that it is a 'bone of contention" among people from other
parts of 'the Americas".
By the way, I have a collateral pet peeve -- people from elsewhere who
call Canadians "Americans", when they clearly mean to use "American" as
you do -- someone from the USA. Brits do this at an alarming rate, as I
found out when living there. They'd ask if I was American, I'd say, "No,
I'm Canadian", and they would say something like "Yes, you
Americans....yadda yadda whatghavetyou." Uh, I'm distinctly NOT from the
USofA, and I'm sure Brits would not want to be 'lumped in' with French
people or Australians or whomever...
The Brits didn't tend ot use "American" int he way I noted at the top --
they clearly didn't mean to include Mexicans, Brazilians, etc., etc....
--Barbara
Megan
wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>
>By the way, I have a collateral pet peeve -- people from elsewhere who
>call Canadians "Americans", when they clearly mean to use "American" as
>you do -- someone from the USA. Brits do this at an alarming rate, as I
>found out when living there.
Of course some of us don't like the term Brit for very similar
reasons. DH even managed to have his nationality entered as
"Scottish" when we got married, rather than British. Faced with the
options "White British, Irish White Other" we both tick the latter.
Like you don't like to be called American, he can't stand being called
British, because to many people it is synonymous with English and he
is certainly not that.
I often see references to a 'British accent' which I just find
laughably ignorant, but of course it represents the international
attitude that British = English
Megan
--
Megan Farr Montgomery Wolverhampton, England
Lille kat, lille kat, lille kat på vejen
Hvis er du, Hvis er du
Jeg er sgu' min egen
- Piet Hein
Barbara Warner
>
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2002 13:38:54 -0500, Barbara Warner <al...@ncf.ca>
> wrote:
> but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>
> >
> >By the way, I have a collateral pet peeve -- people from elsewhere who
> >call Canadians "Americans", when they clearly mean to use "American" as
> >you do -- someone from the USA. Brits do this at an alarming rate, as I
> >found out when living there.
>
> Of course some of us don't like the term Brit for very similar
> reasons.
Ooh, my bad :-(
-- I use British when referring to a group or people from the British
Isles generally, and then use the specific nationality where I know it
(ie English, Welsh, Irish (not-from-the-Republic), Scottish). I used
Brits above because I was talking about people in general whom I met
while living and working in London; and the people (as a group) I was
talking about, were/are from different parts of the UK.
I worked for a Welsh MP, so was very aware of the distinct differences
between the English and, well, just about everyone else!
DH even managed to have his nationality entered as
> "Scottish" when we got married, rather than British. Faced with the
> options "White British, Irish White Other" we both tick the latter.
> Like you don't like to be called American, he can't stand being called
> British, because to many people it is synonymous with English and he
> is certainly not that.
Ah, but he *is* British since that's the title for a larger group
(people of anywhere in the British Isles)....and more specifically, he's
Scottish. (Scottish being a subset of British, just as English or Welsh
or northern Irish are also subsets of 'British. It's quite tricky in the
UK context, though, since the different nations (Scotland, England,
Wales and possibly N.Ireland depending on whether you view it as a
'nation' state), are part of a larger whole, the UK or Britain. (Not to
mention places like the Isle of Wight!) I'm blanking on the official
definition of :"Britain" actually...but I think you see my point.
I'd analogize it to the fact that while I am "North American", I prefer
to be called "Canadian" (and there are plenty of people in my country
who would prefer to be called a Quebeker/Quebecois, a Newfoundlander,
Albertan, etc). Neil is technically "British", but prefers to be called
"Scottish" -- atleast that's my take on it. <g>
> I often see references to a 'British accent' which I just find
> laughably ignorant, but of course it represents the international
> attitude that British = English
Yes, I find that incredible myself, especially since English accents
themselves are so diverse. It might be possible to say someone has an
English accent, but difficult to (correctly) say that someone has a
British accent (because the four major groups which 'make up' Britain
have different linguistic bases! Scottish, Irish and Welsh are all
distinctly different languages, and produce quite a different accent,
even in the English language, than the English -- and England itself is
a nation of thousands of accents.....the Queen's English hardly sounds
like the same language as Cockney, does it?)
--Barbara--
Megan
wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>Ooh, my bad :-(
>
>-- I use British when referring to a group or people from the British
>Isles generally, and then use the specific nationality where I know it
>(ie English, Welsh, Irish (not-from-the-Republic), Scottish). I used
>Brits above because I was talking about people in general whom I met
>while living and working in London; and the people (as a group) I was
>talking about, were/are from different parts of the UK.
>
>I worked for a Welsh MP, so was very aware of the distinct differences
>between the English and, well, just about everyone else!
>
>DH even managed to have his nationality entered as
>> "Scottish" when we got married, rather than British. Faced with the
>> options "White British, Irish White Other" we both tick the latter.
>
>> Like you don't like to be called American, he can't stand being called
>> British, because to many people it is synonymous with English and he
>> is certainly not that.
>
>Ah, but he *is* British since that's the title for a larger group
>(people of anywhere in the British Isles)....and more specifically, he's
>Scottish. (Scottish being a subset of British, just as English or Welsh
>or northern Irish are also subsets of 'British. It's quite tricky in the
>UK context, though, since the different nations (Scotland, England,
>Wales and possibly N.Ireland depending on whether you view it as a
>'nation' state), are part of a larger whole, the UK or Britain.
But then again there is the whole question about the validity of teh
British state (which DH would no doubt argue has been null and void
since the Treaty of Union was broken by Thatcher over a decade ago).
>(Not to
>mention places like the Isle of Wight!) I'm blanking on the official
>definition of :"Britain" actually...but I think you see my point.
>
>I'd analogize it to the fact that while I am "North American", I prefer
>to be called "Canadian" (and there are plenty of people in my country
>who would prefer to be called a Quebeker/Quebecois, a Newfoundlander,
>Albertan, etc). Neil is technically "British", but prefers to be called
>"Scottish" -- atleast that's my take on it. <g>
Of course the irony is that those most keen on the term British are
arguably not British at all. I mean the English. The Britons were of
course a Celtic people, their decendents today being the Welsh, the
Irish, the Scots, the Cornish and the ones that kept the name: the
Bretons. The English are of Germanic origin!
>Yes, I find that incredible myself, especially since English accents
>themselves are so diverse.
I'm told that to Americans (and by that I mean USians) we all sound
the same (including me, when in the US I have often been complemented
on my "cute English/British accent" which is entirely laughable, since
I certainly have neither!) As I can usually identify regional
varieties of US English despite being half deaf at times, I wonder how
on earth a Geordie, a Brummie and a Cockney could possibly be mistaken
for each other!
Its quite amazing to hear the differences between the local accent
here (derisively called yam yam due to their overuse of the word am)
and Brummie. Both accent and dialect vary greatly and there is only
15 miles between the two cities. Plus, Dudley has an entirely
different accent again, not to mentioned Smethwick and they are
geographically between the two!
Megan
Leslie Deak
On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Megan wrote:
> I certainly have neither!) As I can usually identify regional
> varieties of US English despite being half deaf at times, I wonder how
> on earth a Geordie, a Brummie and a Cockney could possibly be mistaken
> for each other!
When you're not familiar with the accent, and have little idea how they
sound, let lone, differ, then it can be very hard. For example, I"m not
sure you could distinguish between a northern Florida, Eastern North
Carolina, Appalacian Mountain, or Texas southern accent, all of which are
very clear to me, because I'm exposed to them on a regular basis. The same
goes for a midwestern, New York, Boston, Chicago, or Pittsburgh accent,
again, all of which are pretty plainly different to me. Just because
people have a hard time with accents doesn't make them unintelligent. It
makes them merely unfamiliar.
-Leslie
Kris Hildrum
As an American who is also a US citizen, I prefer USian since it's
less ambigious.
Kris
Geri
"Leslie Deak" <ld...@me1.egr.duke.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.02033...@me1.egr.duke.edu...
>
> On Sun, 31 Mar 2002, Megan wrote:
>
> > I certainly have neither!) As I can usually identify regional
> > varieties of US English despite being half deaf at times, I wonder how
> > on earth a Geordie, a Brummie and a Cockney could possibly be mistaken
> > for each other!
>
> When you're not familiar with the accent, and have little idea how they
> sound, let lone, differ, then it can be very hard.
Or if you just have no ear at all for accents/language. My DH can tell you
that a native English speaker is not from the US or Canada. Beyond that,
forget it. He's hopeless at identifying anyone by nationality, let alone
region. And this is a man who works for a foreign-owned company and spends
most of his time speaking with people from Australia, South Africa, the UK,
Ireland, and Israel. I really thought that after a few years of exposure
he'd get better at it, but he hasn't. I think his brain is wired
differently. Granted, I think he's kind of a rare bird in the world, but
it's not for lack of exposure or trying that he just doesn't hear the
differences.
Hillary Israeli
Barbara Warner <al...@ncf.ca> wrote:
*Hillary, first of all I sympathize with you -- this sort of behaviour is
*unacceptable in my book and it's plain wrong IMO. Please also try to
*remember, however, that these people do *not* represent the views of the
*vast majority of Christians, just as the more radical/extremist persons
*in the Jewish faith do not represent the majority of Jews (atleast in
Oh, I know. I was just trying to explain where some of us are coming
from...
I know it sounds stupid, but "one of my best friends is Christian." :)
In fact, TWO of my best friends are Christian, although one has become an
"honorary Jew" according to my mother. The other one is quite a religious
Christian - active in her church, and living according to the
principles in which she believes - but while we are extremely close, if
she thinks I'm going to hell, she has kept it to herself.
*Personally, I find the whole "Jews for Jesus" conversion idea
*distasteful, and feel bad that my sister is getting inundated with such
As do most actual Jews! The Messianic Jewry movement was presented to me
as a cult during my comparative religion courses in Sunday School when I
was growing up. I don't know if that is considered true or not. I was just
speaking to one of our Israeli relatives about this though, so it is
interesting you bring it up. Evelyn tells me that the Jews for Jesus are
becoming big in Israel these days - that is to say, they are prosyletizing
very actively, not necessarily that they are recruiting that many people.
She said it was very unpleasant, some of the things they were doing.
*his formerly Christian father converted to Judiasm before marrying BIL's
*step-mother. In turn, this means my nephew has a 'set' of Jewish
*grandparents although neither of his parents (nor aunts or uncles by
*marriage) are Jewish. Our grandmother has it in her head that my nephew
*(her great grandson, therefore) is Jewish (he's not!), *and* that it is
*important for Sherri to convert her ILs to the "Jews for Jesus"
*movement. She has been sending what we consider inappropriate materials
*to my sister's family for ages -- and has really picked up the pace
*since Sebastian was born.
That's odd. Why would she want to convert them to Jews for Jesus, as
opposed to say, Methodist or Episcopal or some other branch of
Christianity? Frankly I find "regular" Christianity a perfectly reasonable
religion, while I find the Jews for Jesus patently offensive in that they
call themselves Jews while flouting one of the basic tenets of Judaism
(waiting for the Messiah to come...)
*convinced her to stop sending him such 'materials' but I haven't a clue
*how to stop sending them to me -- and my *atheist* husband. We've
Send them back marked "return to sender?"
*basically given up, since she's 93 and it's much much easier now to
*ignore her than have a battle with her (which would be far more hurtful
Certainly it would be a kindness to her I suppose to just let the matter
drop :)
*Ugh. Why can't some people just keep their religion to themselves?!? I
*know, conversion is a major tenant of some of these 'denominations' or
*groups (not sure what to call them) but it's still difficult to deal
*with. Argh.
Whereas proselytizing is counter to the Jewish tradition as well. So it is
difficult to accept that others do not find the concept offensive or at
least distasteful, in general.
-h.
Hillary Israeli
Leslie Deak <ld...@me1.egr.duke.edu> wrote:
*When you're not familiar with the accent, and have little idea how they
*sound, let lone, differ, then it can be very hard. For example, I"m not
*sure you could distinguish between a northern Florida, Eastern North
*Carolina, Appalacian Mountain, or Texas southern accent, all of which are
*very clear to me, because I'm exposed to them on a regular basis. The same
*goes for a midwestern, New York, Boston, Chicago, or Pittsburgh accent,
*again, all of which are pretty plainly different to me. Just because
*people have a hard time with accents doesn't make them unintelligent. It
*makes them merely unfamiliar.
I had a college instructor, Deborah Somethingorother, who taught one of my
acting classes. Day one of the semester, she had us go around the room and
introduce ourselves like this: "Hi, I'm Firstname Lastname, and I'm in
this class because yada yada." When everyone was done, she went around the
room and told everyone where they were from. "You, Jane, you're from
somewhere near Reno, Nevada. Steve, you're from LA, probably near the UC.
Bill, you're from Davis. Jack, you're from Sacramento. Hillary - I think
you're the one who traveled the longest to get her. You're from
Pennsylvania, near Philadelphia, probably Wyncote but maybe Glenside."
Freaked me the hell out. Turns out she was a specialist in accents, and
she had no problem getting people down to the nearest big city. The reason
she knew I grew up in Wyncote, though (a 3 block walk from the edge of
Glenside, btw) is because she also grew up in Wyncote.
Megan
Israeli) wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
>Whereas proselytizing is counter to the Jewish tradition as well. So it is
>difficult to accept that others do not find the concept offensive or at
>least distasteful, in general.
I just thought I would chip in that I find the whole thing fairly
offensive, and I have been told I am going to hell by other Christians
(which is what I believe I am) because my beliefs do not tally with
theirs. There are some very ignorant and bigotted people calling
themselves Christians out there, but please do not think the same of
all of us.
FWIW I don't consider these people to be Christians, if that is how
they behave. Like I said last week, I don't think we can decide
whether others are right or wrong, we can only believe what we do and
tolerate other beliefs. However, anyone who judges me (or others) I
reserve the right to judge right back ;-) I am after all only human
:-)
Stuart Carter
>
>
> Do you have ANY comprehension of the bullshit I go through?
Yes. A number of my very close friends are pagans who practice magic. I am
quite well aware of the kind of pseudo-religious, small minded,
discriminatory bigotry they have to put up with - for example, one of them
was asked "So, will you be sacrificed at your wedding?"... I mean, What The
Fsck??!!???
> I get asked "Why do you practice Satanism?" in the army, that I have lost
> jobs because of my unwillingness to endorse Christian ideals, and that
> I am of course going to boycott any place that endorses or sends money
> onto any of these groups:
See my comments above. As you can tell, I am not very tolerant of
intolerance 8-)
> I have had people telling me that I'm going to hell. I've had people
> report me to DCYF. (I got a bored call from a caseworker one day
> asking if I practiced Satanism. I said no, and she bade me a good
> day.) I have faced incredible amounts of discrimination because of
> the misperceptions of Wicca advanced by conservative Christian groups.
My response to this is "that is NOT a Christian way to behave"..! False
accusations rebound on the false accuser - if you like, you can refer to the
Rule of Three.. 8-)
> And you want me to blithely ignore the philosophies of companies I
> consider buying from? Why should I send MY dollars onto a group that
> is dedicated to stamping me out? I don't think you can completely
> perceive the depth of discrimination against Wiccans in the United
> States rallied up by conservative Christian groups. There have been
> lynchings. There have been stonings. We are talking about MURDER
> here, and it's happily endorsed by some of the most prominent groups.
> You have got to be kidding me, that I should just ignore it and that
> to boycott them is unethical.
I can't - I don't live there. From what I have seen in the press
(newspapers, BBC, Sky, or CNN news), the so-called US Religious Right just
seems like another bunch of bigots - I pay no attention to the cause they
claim to espouse, I look at what they are trying to achieve. Just another
bunch of conservatices hiding behind a label.
> Was it unethical to boycott South Africa? Or would it have been
> unethical if I were black, since I was presumably acting out of
> bigotry and self-interest? When I boycott conservative Christian
> businesses, it's out of self-interest.
I boycott Nestle, because their policies in the 3rd world make me feel
physically sick. To that extent, I can empathise with how you feel -
threatened, scared, and under attack. This is *not* how Christianity should
be practiced - it is wrong, and goes against the most fundamental teachings
of Christ (love thy neighbour, treat others as you would be treated, turn
the other cheeck - etc).
Shawna Bowin
one. I can usually tell an Irish accent, and I don't hear Scottish
accents enough to know one if I hear it. I have to admit that I don't
know the difference between Aussie and Kiwi accents, if there is one
(which there must be). And I incorrectly guessed that the pastor of
our church was Aussie, when he is actually from South Africa.
Growing up in Washington State, I visited British Columbia, Canada
quite a few times and could definitely tell a (western) Canadian
accent (with their round Os and flat As)*. I have no idea what an
eastern Canadian accent might be, though. I also often hear a
Minnesota accent and think it's Canadian, so maybe it's a "borderland"
accent or something. :-)
* When people on TV make fun of or try to imitate Canadians, they
always say "a-boot" for about, but real Canadians pronounce it
"a-boat." Real Canadians also don't say "eh" quite as much as some
people seem to think. Just a pet peeve of mine.
Shawna
Nathan's mom since 4-26-01
http://www.geocities.com/sabowin/bowins.html
Miriam Lewis
>
> Personally, I find the whole "Jews for Jesus" conversion idea
> distasteful
You've brought up one of my pet peeves. I cannot stand the "Jews" for
Jesus. There are very few requirements (at least that are agreed upon)
for what you can't believe and still be Jewish but the belief that Jesus
is the Messiah is the main one. If a person believes that Jesus is the
Messiah and their personal Saviour, that person is Christian, not
Jewish. Aargh.
Miriam
--
"Merely corroborative detail intended to give
artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald
and unconvincing narrative." --The Mikado
Robin
> Both Hilary and I are Christians, and I have to ask you - who the h4ll are
> Pat Robertson or Bob Barr?
>
> Oh, right - US-ians.... this has *no* relevance to anyone outside the USA.
> And, from a UK perspective, I have to agree with JH - your attitude comes
> over as very narrow minded and bigoted.
Especially since the thread is titled "US National Holiday" it doesn't
seem like a couple of references to Americans (I've given up all
together) should get Jess drawn and quartered.
FWIW *I* wasn't entirely clear on who Bob Barr is, but I'd be surprised
if no non-Americans had heard of Robertson.
<snip>
> I do not pick and choose reailers on the basis of the colour of their skin,
> their creed, or religion - I go there if they have something I want or need.
> That's all.
What about politics? Is it wrong to choose a locally owned hardware
store over a national chain (I was going to say Home Depot, but I'm
trying to keep this international) because you want to help your
community? Jess wants to patronize Pagan-owned business because she
wants to help *her* community. I don't see the difference.
A co-worker recently brought in his son's boy scouts fund raiser. I
passed it over, because the boy scouts is not an organization I want to
support, due to their views on gays and atheists. I'm *not* saying that
they cannot have those views, just that I won't support them because of
it.
(I can't believe a.n is fighting a religious battle without Ranee! Just
think how much further the fur will fly when she gets back. <grin>)
rangitotogirl
> FWIW I don't consider these people to be Christians, if that is how
> they behave. Like I said last week, I don't think we can decide
> whether others are right or wrong, we can only believe what we do and
> tolerate other beliefs. However, anyone who judges me (or others) I
> reserve the right to judge right back ;-) I am after all only human
> :-)
My FIL is one of those people who likes to force his religion on others.
Hardly a visit goes by where he's not talking about the end times or the
corruption in the church or things like that. Although we attend the same
denomination DH and I share quite different views. I believe that one of
the basic beliefs of Christianity is love for God and love and respect for
your fellow man. This does not extend to criticising the way they do things
and telling them they are going to hell. FWIW I think people that do talk
like that haven't understood the message of the Bible and they're just
trying to put themselves up on a pedestal.
JH
Jess wrote:
> >All you ladies in this thread who swore off purchasing GRACO products due to
> >being ill-informed as to their corporate religion now look kind of silly.
>
> Why would I help support Christianity in any form?
>
> Jess
Are you stating that Rubbermaid, the company that has owned GRACO since 1996, is
patently a Christian company?
Sarah
Hilary wrote:
>
> > I have had people telling me that I'm going to hell.
>
> Sorry, but I agree with them. I've had a (non-religious) work colleague
> ask me if I think she's going to hell. I said yes. She said okay.
> (Curious more than anything.) What I - or other people - think your
> ultimate destination is our thought, not a total prediction. Though if
> you do choose a religion that is almost completely opposed to the main
> religions in force, you have to expect some form of this.
I disagree. (Though it just might be a semantic thing.) Personally, I don't
care whether or not you (general you) think I am going to hell. I DO, however,
care if you just announce this to me. I'm not Jess, but someone once told me
that I was going to go to hell. Their rationale? I was in the bookstore looking
through some books on Buddhism. They told me that if I read "garbage like that"
that I would go to hell. Well-meaning (I presume) acquantainces have told me
that I'm going to hell upon hearing that I am not a Christian.
I don't care what religion I choose (or don't choose, in my case), I should NOT
"expect some form of this." I expect to be treated fairly and respectfully, and
being told that I am going to hell does not fit that expectation. Think it is
you want, but keep it to yourself. I don't want to hear it.
Sarah
Sarah
Kris Hildrum wrote:
Presumably they have a choice, though, about whether or not they want to work for
such a company in the first place.
Sarah
JH
Jess wrote:
> >Really? I would have a problem with race or religion based discrimination
> >since the core idea of equality is that a person is judged by their
> >character, not the color of their skin or their religious preferences. I
> >choose to patronize businesses which are ethical, well run, give me a good
> >value for my money, etc. regardless of the race or religion of the
> >business owner.
>
> That's your call. My call is that I choose not to support Christian
> businesses.
As already noted by my research, you unfairly boycott businesses you *think*
are Christian. You are dead wrong on GRACO being Christian owned and I
strongly suspect the "mandatory bible studies" is also hyperbole, if not
outright urban legend. You are no better than those christians who claim Ray
Kroc of McDonalds was a satan worshipper or that the stars and moon logo of
Proctor and Gamble is a satanic emblem.
>
>
> >Restricting commerce between racial groups is short-sighted, ecomonic
> >failure for minorities. Minority owned businesses which rely primarily on
> >commerce between members of their own race or religion are surely destined
> >to fail or not prosper as abundantly as they could have selling to a much
> >larger market.
>
> You're saying that Hispanics DON'T try to patronize Hispanic-owned
> business, or that blacks DON'T try to patronize black-owned
> businesses? Or are you saying that to your mind that it's wrong to
> try to give your compatriots a boost by patronizing them even at some
> small inconvenience to yourself?
I'm saying that conducting commerce solely on the basis of skin color or race
or religion is wrong. Let me give you a real life example-- listen up Kris,
this answers your question in a previous post as well. Immediately after
September 11th, the rumor spread in my county that the owners of a small, local
restaurant were Arabs who had cheered during the televised destruction of the
WTC. People were encouraged to boycott the popular restaurant and in the
resulting week, the restauran did very little business UNTIL church leaders, a
news reporter and newspaper editor took the community to task for such hysteria
and reverse the damage being done by the boycott. The "Arabs"? Really
Egyptian Coptic Christians who had immigrated to escape Muslim extremist
terrorism and live the American Dream. The name of their restaurant?
"American Hero". Fortunately they are back to business as usual .
Incidently, Jess, you didn't state that you patronize wiccan businesses
primarily, you stated you specifically boycotted Christian ones thereofre the
issue is boycotting based on religion and race.
>
>
> >Your stereotype of Christians is quite narrow minded.
>
> I have occasion to know many Christians, but of the ones that I've
> known who were of the type to make their businesses Christian instead
> of secular, they tend to be of the extreme conservative bent.
Speaking of extremists, do you also boycott extreme left wing liberals like Ted
Turner who uses his business to further his extreme liberal "bent"?
Sarah
Miriam Lewis wrote:
> In article <3CA75033...@ncf.ca>, al...@ncf.ca wrote:
> >
> > Personally, I find the whole "Jews for Jesus" conversion idea
> > distasteful
>
> You've brought up one of my pet peeves. I cannot stand the "Jews" for
> Jesus. There are very few requirements (at least that are agreed upon)
> for what you can't believe and still be Jewish but the belief that Jesus
> is the Messiah is the main one. If a person believes that Jesus is the
> Messiah and their personal Saviour, that person is Christian, not
> Jewish. Aargh.
Well, this, I suppose, brings up the perennial argument again, about whether
one can be culturally Jewish but not religiously Jewish, and vice versa.
Sarah (recently declared "an honorary Jew" :-) )
Sarah
Barbara Warner wrote:
>
> > I often see references to a 'British accent' which I just find
> > laughably ignorant, but of course it represents the international
> > attitude that British = English
>
> Yes, I find that incredible myself, especially since English accents
> themselves are so diverse. It might be possible to say someone has an
> English accent, but difficult to (correctly) say that someone has a
> British accent (because the four major groups which 'make up' Britain
> have different linguistic bases! Scottish, Irish and Welsh are all
> distinctly different languages, and produce quite a different accent,
> even in the English language, than the English -- and England itself is
> a nation of thousands of accents.....the Queen's English hardly sounds
> like the same language as Cockney, does it?)
Saying that someone has a "British accent" still isn't technically incorrect,
though. I mean, whether your accent is Welsh or Cockney or whatever, it's
still *British*. In much the same way, I have an American accent, which is to
say that I am identifiably American, despite the fact that I don't sound
anything like my grandfather (who was from a very rural part of Louisiana) did.
FWIW, I use "British accent" mainly because I can't identify any specific ones,
other than Cockney and Scots (and I'm shaky on those, too). British English,
by which I mean "any accent from the British Isles" all sounds quite similar to
me. I'm sure there are many British people who, similarly, cannot distinguish
between a Texan accent and a Louisiana accent, but I can. I wouldn't fault
them for just using "American accent" though.
Sarah
Sarah
Megan wrote:
> I'm told that to Americans (and by that I mean USians) we all sound
> the same (including me, when in the US I have often been complemented
> on my "cute English/British accent" which is entirely laughable, since
> I certainly have neither!) As I can usually identify regional
> varieties of US English despite being half deaf at times, I wonder how
> on earth a Geordie, a Brummie and a Cockney could possibly be mistaken
> for each other!
Well, while I can hear the differences between some of these accents, I can't
*identify* them. So if you put six people in front of me, with 2 Geordies, 2
Brummies, and two Cockneys, I could group them by accent, but I couldn't tell
you which one was which. So "British" is just the default, since I can't
name them.
Sarah
Sarah
Shawna Bowin wrote:
>
> * When people on TV make fun of or try to imitate Canadians, they
> always say "a-boot" for about, but real Canadians pronounce it
> "a-boat." Real Canadians also don't say "eh" quite as much as some
> people seem to think. Just a pet peeve of mine.
Just FYI, "a-boat" is also common in some New England accents. I say it,
but never realized it until I went away to college (in upstate NY, very
near Canada) and was quite often mistaken as a Canadian. :-)
Sarah
who also says "eh" fairly often, as well as the more common New England
"ay-yuh"
Sarah
Kris Hildrum wrote:
And I prefer American, because I read very literally and I always read "USian" as
"United States-ian," which is completely wrong. If I meant Canadians or
Mexicans, I'd call them Canadians or Mexicans.
Sarah
Shelly
news:3CA7C8E8...@yahooSPAM.com...
I have to agree. While it's true that Canadians, Mexicans and Americans are
all *North Americans*, people from the USA are Americans. I assume it's due
to the fact that saying "UnitedStatesofAmericans" would both sound stupid
and be rather unwieldy - not because Americans are so self-important as to
think no one else shares the continent.
--
Shelly (briefly checking in)
Posting address is rarely read - e-mail swruck at wi dot rr dot com
Julie
>I think this usage started because strictly speaking, people from the
>United States of America are *not* the only "Americans"....people from
>Canada, Mexico and nations in Central *and* South America are also
>"Americans".
All of these people live on the American continents (North and South) but the
only "Americans" are those who live in the United States of America.
If I'm talking about someone from Mexico, Canada or Argentina, they are
Mexicans, Canadians or Argentinians respectively.
Julie
Lynn A.
> * When people on TV make fun of or try to imitate Canadians, they
> always say "a-boot" for about, but real Canadians pronounce it
> "a-boat." Real Canadians also don't say "eh" quite as much as some
> people seem to think. Just a pet peeve of mine.
Depends on the Canadian, or maybe where they're from in Canada, I
think. Living with Arvid all this time now has me saying "eh" probably
more than he does!
I can't stand a fake Canadian accent on TV either, they always
sound dumb whereas I think a real Canadian accent sounds quite
intelligent.
Lynn
Julie
>Are you stating that Rubbermaid, the company that has owned GRACO since 1996,
>is
>patently a Christian company?
I don't know but I don't purchase Rubbermaid products.
Julie (Tupperware consultant)
Mrs. D
> people seem to think.<<
Probably true, but I assumed (correctly) that one of my bosses was from Canada
*long* before she mentioned it to me. I knew that because she uses the word
"eh" all the time <g>
Mary
Mrs. D
>>Why would I help support Christianity in any form?<<
Because its very *basic* *fundamental* teachings are about acceptance and
patience and goodness, etc. Not exactly something worth boycotting on its own
merit, imo.
>>If you realized how much bullshit Wiccans *routinely* get from
conservative Christians in the U.S., and YOU were a Wiccan, you'd shy
away from them as well.<<
But, believe it or not, "conservative Christians" are a minority in the
Christian world. They're very vocal, they get a lot of air time ... maybe they
get in your face alot. But, I just don't suppose that many true Christians
feel the need to walk up to you on the street and tell you that they really do
"love" you.
>>as a bonus, to not have to put up with my kids being taught
Christianity by society. <<
I'm sorry, but I *really* don't think that's possible. Christianity is
*everywhere* and, your own personal biases aside, that's not necessarily a bad
thing. By keeping your children at arms length about other religions
(especially if, as I'm assuming, most of their friends celebrate those other
holiday traditions - ie. Easter and Passover), I just don't think you're doing
them any real service.
Just because a vocal or troublesome minority in a particular group gets most of
the press doesn't mean that the majority of the group supports that.
For what its worth, I've known many thousands of Christians in my life and I've
gone to two Catholic schools and one of the closest people in my life is a nun
... in all my life, I've never heard *one* Christian speak out publically
against Wiccans.
I know, I know ... ymmv.
Mary
Stacy Lynn
I agree. If I am referring to a group of people that includes
Mexicans, Americans, and Canadians, I will say "North Americans" and
if the group if of Brazilians, Peruvians, and the like, I will say
"South Americans." If on the rare occasion I would be referring to
people from both North and South America, I would probably say "people
from the Americas" rather than give them a "name." After all,
Europeans are Europeans, but what if you are referring to people from
Europe AND Asia? They would be Europeans and Asians. There really
isn't a word for the inhabitants of any 2 continents. American is the
proper term for a citizen of the USA. North American is the term from
someone from North America. 2 different things. An American is not a
Mexican or Canadian. I don't mind US-ian so much, I figured it was
just a quick way to write it, just like FWIW and AFAIK, etc. But I
hope people aren't actually going around and saying "United Statesian"
That just sounds stupid to me, and its wrong.
As far as accents, I had a friend from Australia come stay with me and
she brought a friend from New Zealand. My friend (Jodi) and her
friend had a friendly "rivalry" (for lack of a better word) about
their accents. Jodi explained how their accents were different to me,
and as I was taking several linguistics classes at the time, it made a
lot of sense. My husband worked very closely with a guy from New
Zealand so he can also tell the difference between their accent and an
Australian accent. I use "British" when I know the accent is from
somewhere in the British Isles, and I'm just not sure where. Sorry to
say it, but I can't tell what part of England, Wales, Scotland, etc
someone is from by their accent. Has anyone seen Mrs. Doubtfire?
Robin Williams puts on a fake accent and someone from England actually
calls him (her) on it, asking to know exactly where he (she) is from
and when Robin Williams responds, the guy who actually is from England
is like "oh? I can't really place you there with that accent" or
soemthing like that. I think my accent is very distinctively Alaskan
with a touch of Pacific Northwest, and maybe a smidgeon from the
midwest. I was raised in Alaska and Washington by a mother from Idaho
and a father from the Midwest, so thats how I get my accent, but how
many people from outside the PNW or Alaska, LET ALONE someone from
outside of the USA could place that? To most AMERICANS I just sound
like the generic "American accent" but when you put me side by side
with someone else from Alaska or the Pacific NW and someone from say
Arizona (where I live now, another place that to most people outside
the US does not have an accent assosicated with it) there is a huge
difference in our speech.
Puester
> .
>
> And I prefer American, because I read very literally and I always read "USian" as
> "United States-ian," which is completely wrong. If I meant Canadians or
> Mexicans, I'd call them Canadians or Mexicans.
>
You might, but if they were referring to themselves, many would
call themselves "American".
North and South American are both "America" to most people of
the world.
When I spent a summer in Europe at age 16 poeple frequently asked me
where I was from. I began by saying "America" and their response
was almost 100% "Oh, you're Brazilian?" I finally caught on and
began saying "from the U.S."
gloria p
KellieGaines
was able to sit up and look around (even propped), she wanted out of
that infant seat (when it was in the stroller) and up where she could
look around. I think I used that stroller for about 6 months, then we
found a smaller one (bigger than an umbrella stroller, which has no
basket or headcover, but much smaller than the mega-stroller), and she
loves it. The smaller one weighs about 5 pounds, has a basket and a
headcover and folds nearly flat. The only thing it doesn't do is
recline, which is OK since she won't stay in it like that anyway...
Hillary, I wondered if maybe you would be using a front carrier for
the new one and have Jacob in the stroller for a bit longer - if you
did that, you could stay with one stroller for now, then when the new
baby is ready for a stroller, they do have stroller snaps that will
snap two umbrella or slightly larger type strollers together. I think
those are a lot easier to push and manuever than a double stroller.
If you do end up with a double, my friends with 2+ kids say that the
side-by-sides are actually easier to push and manuever than the front
to backs. Having only used the front to backs (which were a nightmare
to use, even with two smallish sized toddlers who were sitting still),
I'm sure they're right!
kellie
jennifer c <jennife...@newsguy.com> wrote in message news:<a8366...@drn.newsguy.com>...
> In article <aH7p8.55852$u77.15...@news02.optonline.net>, "Liz says...
> >
> >
> >"Hillary Israeli" <hil...@hillary.net> wrote
> >
> >> There are no good double strollers, I guess.
> >
> >Hillary -
> >
> >Geri turned me on to Zooper Strollers, which IIRC were recommended to her by
> >a friend who's a buyer of baby gear for some store. Anyway, have a look @
> >http://www.zooperstrollers.com/products/twinair/default.htm
>
> We've got the Zooper Buddy. For the most part, it's a great stroller. Heck, it's
> even got *suspension.* It's easy to maneuver, and the basket's huge.
>
> However, I have had a number of issues with the quality. Both back tires went
> completely flat within a week of first using the stroller, and we had to take
> them to the bike repair shop to have the part inside them (I'm sorry -- I'm so
> tired I can't think of the word I want right now) replaced. Within two weeks,
> all of the snaps that hold various parts of the cover together had torn off.
>
> Friends of ours have had the exact same problem with their Zooper Buddy, too.
>
> When I complained to the store that sold me the stroller, they suggested just
> calling Zooper and asking for a new cover. The salesperson told me that Zooper's
> very good about that sort of thing. I haven't had a chance to do it yet, so who
> knows...
>
> I'd still recommend Zooper strollers to anyone, but with the caveat that there
> may be some quality issues to deal with...
>
> -jennifer c., who just used the Zooper today to take Olivia to the park
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> email: jennac [at] newsguy [dot] com
rangitotogirl
> I've had rocks thrown at me, I've been screamed at, I've been
> rationally asked time and again why I don't love Jesus, I've had my
> children told that they were going to hell . . . it all depends on
> where you're standing.
>
That's shocking. I think you would find most genuine Christian's are
morally opposed to this sort of behaviour, but there are certainly
extremists among us. I'm disappointed that you're being treated like this
and I'm surprised that this is happening in the States. I hate wars that
claim to be religious wars... but I also think there is a major difference
between being religious and living what you know to be right. For example I
think you can claim to be a christian when in reality you are being
extremely religious. A genuine Christian treats other people as they would
want to be treated, but as you've experienced, there are many people
claiming they are Christians who are definitely anything but...
I've never heard of a Wiccan before. What is it, and what are the core
things that differentiate them from other people.
rangitotogirl
> Zealand so he can also tell the difference between their accent and an
> Australian accent.
You're doing well. Even though I'm a New Zealander I often have difficulty
picking the Australian accent unless I listen out for it especially. It
comes from going through a schooling system that was predominantly taught by
Australian teachers.
Kris Hildrum
Mrs. D <marlo...@aol.comedy> wrote:
>I'm sorry, but I *really* don't think that's possible. Christianity is
>*everywhere* and, your own personal biases aside, that's not necessarily a bad
>thing. By keeping your children at arms length about other religions
>(especially if, as I'm assuming, most of their friends celebrate those other
>holiday traditions - ie. Easter and Passover), I just don't think you're doing
>them any real service.
I support Christianity, and I see religion as generally a positive
force. But I'm not sure what you mean by this. Is it a good thing to
know about Christianity as opposed to say, Buddism? We do live in a
Christian-based society, and I think a basic knowledge of the Bible is
probably a good thing, since it helps you understand references. And it
probably a good thing to understand what holidays those around you are
celebrating and at least of some inkling of why.
Is this what you meant? Or did you mean something more?
Kris
Kris Hildrum
Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
>(I can't believe a.n is fighting a religious battle without Ranee! Just
>think how much further the fur will fly when she gets back. <grin>)
LOL! So true!
Kris
(who promises not to make another one-line, contentless post for at least
a year!)
Kris Hildrum
>I'm saying that conducting commerce solely on the basis of skin color or race
>or religion is wrong. Let me give you a real life example-- listen up Kris,
>this answers your question in a previous post as well. Immediately after
>September 11th, the rumor spread in my county that the owners of a small, local
>restaurant were Arabs who had cheered during the televised destruction of the
>WTC. People were encouraged to boycott the popular restaurant and in the
>resulting week, the restauran did very little business UNTIL church leaders, a
>news reporter and newspaper editor took the community to task for such hysteria
>and reverse the damage being done by the boycott. The "Arabs"? Really
>Egyptian Coptic Christians who had immigrated to escape Muslim extremist
>terrorism and live the American Dream. The name of their restaurant?
>"American Hero". Fortunately they are back to business as usual .
This does not really address my point. Your story says that
"Sometimes you can be totally wrong about the beliefs of some person and
inadvertantly decide not to patronize someone who would otherwise be
okay."
Certainly, my Christian dentist wanted the label of "Christian",
otherwise he wouldn't have put it on is front door. When one chooses to
publically label ones self in that manner, I think others are perfectly
justified in choosing to patronize or not to patronize such a business on
the basis of that label.
Kris
Kris Hildrum
Julie <jdh...@aol.comedian> wrote:
>Barbara wrote:
>>I think this usage started because strictly speaking, people from the
>>United States of America are *not* the only "Americans"....people from
>>Canada, Mexico and nations in Central *and* South America are also
>>"Americans".
>
>All of these people live on the American continents (North and South) but the
>only "Americans" are those who live in the United States of America.
What word would you use for those who live on American continents?
You can say "European" what's the corresponding term for the people from
the Americans?
I can say that in Chilean Spanish, "americano" is someone or
something from the Americas (either of them), and "norteamericano" is used
to refer to people from the US. (There's another Spanish word,
estadounidense that can be used to refer to people from the US, but it
wasn't common.) They sorta get annoyed when you use "americano" to refer
just to people from the US, since they consider themselves americanos. I
believe this definition of americano is shared throughout Latin America.
For good or for ill, the Latin American definition of "americano"
has influenced my view of the related English word, so I prefer the less
ambiguous USian, at least in the context of this newsgroup.
Kris
p.s. FWIW, My friend who went to Spain reports that Spanish Spanish uses
"americano" for people from the US.
Kris Hildrum
We obviously have different points of view, and I don't think we'll ever
agree, but what do you mean by completely wrong? As far as I know, the
word doesn't exist in any dictionary, but is there some reason beside that
one that it's "completely wrong"? Should it be "UnitedStatesi" or "USi"
or something?
Kris
Stuart Carter
"rangitotogirl" <rangit...@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:knSp8.809$Og6....@news02.tsnz.net...
I always listen for the "i" sound - in the "typical" accent, Aussies seem to
say "feesh and cheeps", while Kiwis seem to say "fush and chups" - hence (in
a movie review I read) Caro the Kiwi saying that "The Talented Muster Rupley
is a load of shut"... *grin*.
I can also, usually, tell the difference between Canadian and USian accents,
but it gets difficult with people with soft accents - they are a pain in the
old whatsit... 8-)
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