It's *fun* being a religious minority!
Robin
Our company is sending out xmas cards, and we're all expected to sign
them. Problem? They're *very* religious. We're not talking "Merry
Christmas", we're talking about "our saviour". Anyhow, I refused.
I know that I'm perfectly within my rights, and that the law prohibits
job descrimination on the basis of religion, but that hasn't slowed my
pulse down any =(
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
drw...@my-deja.com
Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
> Our company is sending out xmas cards, and we're all expected to sign
> them. Problem? They're *very* religious. We're not talking "Merry
> Christmas", we're talking about "our saviour". Anyhow, I refused.
How on EARTH did those cards get approved by the necessary company
management??? A couple jobs back, we couldn't even show a candle flame
on cards because someone feared that would be interpreted as "too
Christian."
> I know that I'm perfectly within my rights, and that the law prohibits
> job descrimination on the basis of religion, but that hasn't slowed my
> pulse down any =(
Understandably! If it's any comfort, I wouldn't have signed either. Our
personal Xmas cards usually show religious scenes from "great art" and
have a somewhat generic message (to strike a balance between devoutness
and inoffensiveness without having to make detailed lists of who can get
what cards) -- but I don't think a business should be going even *that*
far in asking employees to endorse beliefs. Unless the company's
policy is only to do business with "Christian" firms, those Xmas cards
also seem like a really good way to lose business by making
non-Christians uncomfortable.
Wende
Jocelyn
<drw...@my-deja.com> wrote:
Exactly what I was thinking. We spend a lot of time at my firm trying to
pick out religiously-neutral cards - they usually end up being winter scenes
of Central Park or something like that, with a similarly neutral message.
Even though I am Christian, I'd be very hesitant to send my clients and
business contacts anything with religious connotations. Of course, I'm not
sending any firm cards out this year, despite their appropriate neutrality -
they're just too ugly. ;-)
- Jocelyn
Robin
drw...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <91apeu$sl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
>
> > Our company is sending out xmas cards, and we're all expected to
sign
> > them. Problem? They're *very* religious. We're not talking "Merry
> > Christmas", we're talking about "our saviour". Anyhow, I refused.
>
> How on EARTH did those cards get approved by the necessary company
> management??? A couple jobs back, we couldn't even show a candle flame
> on cards because someone feared that would be interpreted as "too
> Christian."
Very small company, which the president likes to bill as a "Christian"
company. Needless to say this was not mentioned to me during my
interview...
> > I know that I'm perfectly within my rights, and that the law
prohibits
> > job descrimination on the basis of religion, but that hasn't slowed
my
> > pulse down any =(
>
> Understandably! If it's any comfort, I wouldn't have signed either.
That is a comfort, thanks. I've been anxiously checking back in every
since I posted, waiting for someone to tell me I'm over-reacting.
Our
> personal Xmas cards usually show religious scenes from "great art" and
> have a somewhat generic message (to strike a balance between
devoutness
> and inoffensiveness without having to make detailed lists of who can
get
> what cards) -- but I don't think a business should be going even
*that*
> far in asking employees to endorse beliefs. Unless the company's
> policy is only to do business with "Christian" firms, those Xmas cards
> also seem like a really good way to lose business by making
> non-Christians uncomfortable.
I think they're going out to our sales reps, but it looks like several
of them are not going to be pleased.
Ick, ick, ick, ick, ick.
KathyK
Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
> >
> > Understandably! If it's any comfort, I wouldn't have signed either.
>
> That is a comfort, thanks. I've been anxiously checking back in every
> since I posted, waiting for someone to tell me I'm over-reacting.
You're not over reacting at all. Unless you're actually working for a
church (which you're not), no company should be pushing any sort of
religion down their employees or clients throats. Asking you to sign a
card that is so obviously religion goes against your basic belief
system, and you have every right not to sign it.
--
Kathy
TDC Snow White and Keeper of Sockpuppets
edd 8/3/01
lissie...@hotmail.com
least! I'm sorry to hear it...
- Lissie (who noticed a very large creche set up at the hospital where
she works, which is a federal institution!)
In article <91apeu$sl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
Karen Simmons
Robin,
If it helps slow your pulse down some, I wouldn't have signed either.
And I'm a Christian. I've probably mentioned this before but: One, I
don't think that a *business* can be Christian, only the people there.
Two, I will purposely not patronize busineses that force their
Christianity at me (in advertising or whatever) because I don't think
that's what Christ would have wanted His name used for.
I actually would have been just as offended by the card, if for
different reasons.
Hang in there.
Karen
Robin
little information away as possible about my religious preferences" way
to explain why I'm not signing if I'm questioned about it?
jpetr...@my-deja.com
Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
> While I'm here, anyone have thoughts on a non-confrontational "give as
> little information away as possible about my religious preferences"
way
> to explain why I'm not signing if I'm questioned about it?
"I'm acutely aware that people may have beliefs different from those
expressed in this card, and that such people do find these sentiments
insulting when apparently thrust on them. Since insults are counter to
the intent of spreading happy thoughts, I'd like to refrain. Thank
you."
Leave them scratching their heads. Hopefully, it's not too
confrontational.
Jeanne, who happens to share those particular beliefs, but that's
beside the point.
--
!Notice! I don't read this email address due to
spam. To reply directly to me, take out the
spaces: jpetrang @ harris . com
drw...@my-deja.com
> little information away as possible about my religious preferences"
way
> to explain why I'm not signing if I'm questioned about it?
I suppose the obvious suggestion is "I'm just not comfortable
misrepresenting my deeply held beliefs... MY, isn't it [cold, snowy,
hot, whatever] today! How do you think rush hour traffic will be?"
Problem is, there are people who will feel it their duty either
to interrogate you on your beliefs or to lecture you on why you need to
be Saved. To my knowledge, no one has discovered a way to slow these
people down, short of pouring scalding coffee over their heads -- which
is not a good career move. The best advice I can give is that, when you
change the subject, end your conversational turn with an open-ended
question. It's fairly rude to ignore someone's question, so you might be
spared the interrogation while they answer, during which time you drift
off to do something important.
Wende
Josie Morgan
>While I'm here, anyone have thoughts on a non-confrontational "give as
>little information away as possible about my religious preferences" way
>to explain why I'm not signing if I'm questioned about it?
(Gentle smile) "My favorite mentor from college once told us that
we should always check our religion and our politics at the office
door. I've tried to always follow her advice."
--Although this doesn't quite work if you still haven't peeled your
(A/B 2000) bumper-stickers off your car.
--
JM
Sara-anne
> If it helps slow your pulse down some, I wouldn't have signed either.
Ditto that. I don't think I would have signed either. I actually
prefer to pick out cards that say "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons
Greetings". My own, personal, reason for sending cards this time of
year is more to say "hope you're doing well" rather than "Merry
Christmas". Although, I don't send cards out at any other time of year,
so it must be a little of both. :o)
Sara
--
Email at this address is never read.
Please post replies, or send them to:
saraandluke -at- mediaone -dot- net
Sarah
Get out! That's really awful...I wouldn't have signed either.
I just hope you don't get preached at for not signing them! That'd make
it even worse...
Sarah
fellow nonbeliever feeling your pain
--
Sarah M. in Virginia
Julie Hauer
>
>Ugh.
>
>Our company is sending out xmas cards, and we're all expected to sign
>them. Problem? They're *very* religious. We're not talking "Merry
>Christmas", we're talking about "our saviour". Anyhow, I refused.
When I worked for the National Cathedral, all of the staffers in the development
department were requested to sign the cards that went out to our donors.
However, even at a CHURCH, we didn't send out overtly religious cards. As I
recall, the cards we sent out the one Christmas I was there had a watercolor
picture of the Cathedral on the front and the inside said something about
wishing a "joyous Christmas season" to the recipient.
As a quite definite non-Christian, I felt comfortable signing those cards.
Good for you for standing up for what you believe!
Julie (who is boycotting Toys for Tots which I receive an almost daily e-mail
reminder about here at work)
Silly
name to something that's bound to make at least a few clients
uncomfortable, and that you'd be happy to sign a non-specific "winter
holiday" card.
Shawna
JH
> In article <91armr$ur5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Understandably! If it's any comfort, I wouldn't have signed either.
> >
> > That is a comfort, thanks. I've been anxiously checking back in every
> > since I posted, waiting for someone to tell me I'm over-reacting.
>
> You're not over reacting at all. Unless you're actually working for a
> church (which you're not), no company should be pushing any sort of
> religion down their employees or clients throats. Asking you to sign a
> card that is so obviously religion goes against your basic belief
> system, and you have every right not to sign it.
>
>
Imo, I believe she is partially over reacting. Looking from the viewpoint
of the business owner who has invested his own time, money, heart and soul
building his own business from scratch, I believe he does have the right to
define his company as he chooses. It is apparent he has done so by the
choice of corporate Christmas cards. He gets to choose how he markets his
products, sell his company , whom he wishes to target market to, how he
wishes to offend or not offend his market base, and in doing so, bears the
consequences of those decisions.
Also, Robin has not yet mentioned any threatened ramifications should she
decline to sign the business Christmas cards. Only when that happens has
job discrimination based on religion occured.
I wouldn't have signed a Saturnalia, Happy Birthday Mithras!, or Kwanzaa
cards either, btw.
cleo...@my-deja.com
Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
> Our company is sending out xmas cards, and we're all expected to sign
> them. Problem? They're *very* religious. We're not talking "Merry
> Christmas", we're talking about "our saviour". Anyhow, I refused.
Oh, good for you! And hasn't your ethnocentric company ever hired a Jew or
other non-Christian employee, or do they not believe any of their clients are
Jewish? This seems very insensitive, to say the least.
We get "Merry Xmas" cards all the time from our landscaping company, our real
estate broker, etc. While I am not personally offended at someone wishing me
"Merry Xmas", I would be offended by some preachy "saviour" religious-oriented
card. I prefer getting "happy holiday" cards without santa claus or relgious
themes, though.
> I know that I'm perfectly within my rights, and that the law prohibits
> job descrimination on the basis of religion, but that hasn't slowed my
> pulse down any =(
My I-don't-practice-law-but-I-teach-it side says that you should have no
reason to worry. It can't stop them from firing you, of course, but you do
have a legal remedy if they do.
Cleo
drw...@my-deja.com
Wouldn't there be difficulties proving discrimination if the refusal to
sign the card wasn't given as the reason for firing? Most non-academic
jobs I've had specified that either party could end the employment at
any time without stating a reason -- if the reason is "we just don't
like your work," who's to say why?
Sorry to worry you, Robin -- frankly, unless this company is the only
employer for 30 miles, if they *would* fire you for not signing, I think
you'd be better off without them. It's one thing to be quiet about
personal so everyone can get along, and another thing to be quiet
because you feel like you have to wear a gag to keep your job.
Wende
cal...@my-deja.com
drw...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Wouldn't there be difficulties proving discrimination if the refusal
> to
> sign the card wasn't given as the reason for firing? Most non-academic
> jobs I've had specified that either party could end the employment at
> any time without stating a reason -- if the reason is "we just don't
> like your work," who's to say why?
>
It's difficult to prove, but it is done frequently. If Robin were to be
fired soon after this situation and she decided to take it to court, the
employer would be asked why she was fired. The employer would need
produce reasons and/or evidence of the reasons for her firing. If they
had valid and recorded reasons for firing, she really doesn't have a
case. If they have weak reasons (and/or there wasn't an egregious
incident or history of abuse of company policy) then they have a very
weak case. That's why it's important for supervisors to keep good
records.
Jennifer
Jocelyn
<drw...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <91ba2i$bu5$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> cleo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > My I-don't-practice-law-but-I-teach-it side says that you should have
> no
> > reason to worry. It can't stop them from firing you, of course, but
> you do
> > have a legal remedy if they do.
>
> Wouldn't there be difficulties proving discrimination if the refusal to
> sign the card wasn't given as the reason for firing? Most non-academic
> jobs I've had specified that either party could end the employment at
> any time without stating a reason -- if the reason is "we just don't
> like your work," who's to say why?
Well, if her evaluations have always been good, she's never had any problems
before, and they suddenly fired her on the grounds that "we just don't like
your work" right after she refused to sign their religious card, that would
in my
(I-do-practice-law-and-used-to-practice-employment-law-but-this-isn't-legal-
advice) opinion be a fairly clear cut case of a pretextual firing.
While it's true most employment is "at-will", what that means is that they
can fire your for any reason or no reason at all, as long as the reason
isn't discriminatory. *But* just because they *say* there was no reason or
that there was non-discriminatory reason, doesn't mean a court can't look
beyond their stated reason and examine the facts surrounding the
termination.
Nonetheless, I tend to agree with you, Wende. If they're going to fire you
for refusing to sign their overtly Christian card, you don't really want to
work there anyway.
As always, this is not legal advice, and I am not representing or agreeing
to represent anyone reading this posting. If you have a legal problem, you
should seek advice from an attorney, lawyer, barrister or solicitor, or
other counsel in your jurisdiction.
- Jocelyn
--
Change not to net to reply.
Karina Wright
: Ugh.
: Our company is sending out xmas cards, and we're all expected to sign
: them. Problem? They're *very* religious. We're not talking "Merry
: Christmas", we're talking about "our saviour". Anyhow, I refused.
Good for you. DH's father and stepmother are Jehovah Witnesses. His
stepmother worked in an office. Her co-workers decided to put up a
tree for Christmas, and insisted she help them decorate it. She declined
and told them she doesn't celebrate Christmas. So they laid her off
because of it.
Although I celebrate Christmas, I don't think it should be brought into
the workplace. I work in a government office. Today, there were
Christmas carollers (sp?) walking around to EVERY office in the building,
singing very religious songs. Now, I'm sure there are people who do not
celebrate Christmas in the building who do not appreciate this. Not to
mention, people like myself who do not like having their work disturbed by
a bunch of singing.
My co-workers put up a Christmas tree, ornaments everywhere, and other
Christmas related decorations and things. I think this is totally
inappropriate for the office.
--
Karina, who's been away for a while
Robin
> Oh, good for you! And hasn't your ethnocentric company ever hired a
Jew or
> other non-Christian employee, or do they not believe any of their
clients are
> Jewish? This seems very insensitive, to say the least.
<sarcasm> This is the *south*, we don't have non-christians here... </>
It amazes me. I grew up outside of DC, and had three temples within
walking distance of my house. When I was in grade school I firmly
believed that 50% of the population was "Christmas" and 50% was
"Chanukah".
Growing up I knew tons of people who weren't Christian, and discovered I
was one of them.
Here, OTOH. Oy-vey! I feel like quite the heathen. My former boss
knew I was atheist, and actually cautioned me not to let that slip
around the office. Cute, huh?
spacy...@my-deja.com
Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
> Here, OTOH. Oy-vey! I feel like quite the heathen. My former boss
> knew I was atheist, and actually cautioned me not to let that slip
> around the office. Cute, huh?
>
>
At least he didn't fire you. I'd be glad he gave me a warning. It
really isn't anyone's business what you believe, but it is probably
better to know in advance (IMO) if your co-workers will chastise you
for some comment or whatever.
I dunno. Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I would have just signed the
cards with initials or something. Doing it and being done with it is
less stress than worrying about them taking legal ramifications towards
you. I don't think that by signing those cards you are professing your
beliefs as a Christian. I know plenty of people who pretend like they
are Christian by going to church every week, yet they cheat on their
spouse, use illegal drugs, set up insurance fraud gimmicks (and this in
only one person's actions I'm mentioning here!).
I work in an environment that could be construed as going against my
Christian belief (to some extent). The clinical research center where
all our research patients are enrolled advises pts. to use BC methods.
They're not preaching abstinence. They administer drugs for STDs.
Many of the pts. are alcohol or drug-addicted. It isn't our place to
advise them on those matters though. (I don't have face-to-face
communication with these pts., but am very involved with the studies).
It could easily be perceived as me shunning my faith. I don't see it
that way, so that's all that matters.
Of course, since you see your situation as shunning your own beliefs,
that is what matters for you. Is it worth jeopardizing your job?
Just some food for though.
Tracy
cleo...@my-deja.com
> Wouldn't there be difficulties proving discrimination if the refusal to
> sign the card wasn't given as the reason for firing? Most non-academic
> jobs I've had specified that either party could end the employment at
> any time without stating a reason -- if the reason is "we just don't
> like your work," who's to say why?
If I'm remembering my basic employment law correctly, the form of contract
that you had made you an "at will" employee, which gives you fewer rights
than a non at will employee-- but Title VII of the Civil Rights Act (which
prohibits workplace discimination, as long as the company you work for falls
within the guidelines of the Act (more than a certain # of employees, like
15-30, I can't recall exactly), still applies to everyone. They don't have
to give you a reason for firing you, but that doesn't mean that you can't
then sue, claiming discimination. Of course, you are absolutely right that
they could make up a bogus reason when confronted in legal proceedings, and
you'd have the burden of proving that they fired you for religious reasons.
These days (unlike when the CRA was first passed, in the early 60's), no
company is stupid enough to say "I'm firing you because you are an
atheist/Jew/Christian/whatever." Nonetheless, plaintiffs manage to prove
that this is exactly the case quite frequently.
Cleo
cleo...@my-deja.com
> <sarcasm> This is the *south*, we don't have non-christians here... </>
Oh yeah, I spent 8 years in the south (Raleigh/Durham), along with 1000s of
other Jews. Yet, I absolutely understand the logic behind the culture, which
is of course tolerant of Judaism but very forgetful about it.
> Here, OTOH. Oy-vey! I feel like quite the heathen. My former boss
> knew I was atheist, and actually cautioned me not to let that slip
> around the office. Cute, huh?
After escaping from a dysfunctional work environment, I've come to believe
that the less your colleagues know about you, the better off you are.
I think it's great that you aren't allowing external pressures get to you, to
do something that violates your own sense of religious beliefs and personal
integrity. My guess is that there are other people who feel uncomfortable
with your company's card, maybe for different reasons than you, but who are
too chicken to say anything about it.
So, *kudos* to you, Robin.
Cleo
ale...@my-deja.com
</>
>
> It amazes me. I grew up outside of DC, and had three temples within
> walking distance of my house. When I was in grade school I firmly
> believed that 50% of the population was "Christmas" and 50% was
> "Chanukah".
>
card like that without loosing plenty of customers. I would never sign
such a card, but I would also never work in a place that would try to
make me to. I am not sure how is the job market where you live, but I
would be looking around if I were you. It does not sound like a healthy
environment by any strectch of the imagination.
Alena (who just found out her colleague was Jewish after stupidly asking
her what is she doing for Christmas..)
cleo...@my-deja.com
spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I dunno. Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I would have just signed the
> cards with initials or something. Doing it and being done with it is
> less stress than worrying about them taking legal ramifications towards
> you. I don't think that by signing those cards you are professing your
> beliefs as a Christian. I know plenty of people who pretend like they
> are Christian by going to church every week, yet they cheat on their
> spouse, use illegal drugs, set up insurance fraud gimmicks (and this in
> only one person's actions I'm mentioning here!).
You don't really advocate this "pretend Christian" behavior though, right?
Assuming that's so, it isn't exactly a ringing endorsement that Robin do the
same kind of thing with respect to her employer's Xmas cards.
> I work in an environment that could be construed as going against my
> Christian belief (to some extent). The clinical research center where
> all our research patients are enrolled advises pts. to use BC methods.
> They're not preaching abstinence. They administer drugs for STDs.
> Many of the pts. are alcohol or drug-addicted.
It is against Christian beliefs to treat people for STD's? I have trouble
believing that the Christian thing to do is to let people die of treatable
infections. Same for substance abuse, it can't really be the Christian thing
to do to not treat or refer patients with addiction problems. You've
befuddled me.
Cleo
Karen Simmons
>
>> I don't think that by signing those cards you are professing your
>> beliefs as a Christian. I know plenty of people who pretend like they
>> are Christian by going to church every week, yet they cheat on their
>> spouse, use illegal drugs, set up insurance fraud gimmicks (and this in
>> only one person's actions I'm mentioning here!).
>
> You don't really advocate this "pretend Christian" behavior though,
> right?
I agree. I wasn't sure how to phrase what I wanted to say when I first
read that paragraph, but I think it's something like: others
hypocritical actions shouldn't be a guideline for one's own behavior. I
think Robin is right for *not* being a hypocrit and standing her ground.
>> I work in an environment that could be construed as going against my
>> Christian belief (to some extent). The clinical research center where
>> all our research patients are enrolled advises pts. to use BC methods.
>> They're not preaching abstinence. They administer drugs for STDs.
>> Many of the pts. are alcohol or drug-addicted.
>
> It is against Christian beliefs to treat people for STD's?
I realize that there are Catholic issues with BC, but in general, I
don't believe that BC is unChristian. And as far as the patients being
alcohol and drug addicted, nowhere did Christ say that you should treat
those "worthy" of being treated, nor did He ever say that alcoholics or
drug addicts were less worthy than anyone else.
Karen
Sara-anne
> It is against Christian beliefs to treat people for STD's? I have
trouble
> believing that the Christian thing to do is to let people die of
treatable
> infections. Same for substance abuse, it can't really be the
Christian thing
> to do to not treat or refer patients with addiction problems. You've
> befuddled me.
I can't speak for other denominations, but it is against the Christian
Scientist faith to take medication of any kind.
Sara
--
Email at this address is never read.
Please post replies, or send them to:
saraandluke -at- mediaone -dot- net
Robin
supporter--either that, or the others are as scared to mention it as I
am!) so I will *definitely* use this line if it comes up.
Hm... I do have a Darwin lizard on my car, but since I rarely drive it
into the office (think of the mess that'd make of the carpets!) I think
it still works.
--
There's no need to e-mail me a copy of a follow-up; but if you do,
please identify it as such.
Robin
> My co-workers put up a Christmas tree, ornaments everywhere, and other
> Christmas related decorations and things. I think this is totally
> inappropriate for the office.
>
my co-workers is a Jehovah's Witness also. I wonder if anyone asked her
if she'd be bothered by the tree?
Karen Simmons
>> My co-workers put up a Christmas tree, ornaments everywhere, and other
>> Christmas related decorations and things. I think this is totally
>> inappropriate for the office.
Hmmm. Well we have a Christmas tree at the office as well ... but then
there are only a handful of people in our office and we asked around
first. Our three Jewish employees were more excited about it than the
rest of us. I think it depends on the office and the people involved.
I know if anyone had had any qualms, much less been offended by the
idea, we wouldn't have done it.
Karen
Robin
> In article <91bd2u$ect$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
>
> > Here, OTOH. Oy-vey! I feel like quite the heathen. My former boss
> > knew I was atheist, and actually cautioned me not to let that slip
> > around the office. Cute, huh?
> At least he didn't fire you. I'd be glad he gave me a warning. It
> really isn't anyone's business what you believe, but it is probably
> better to know in advance (IMO) if your co-workers will chastise you
> for some comment or whatever.
Oh--that wasn't what I meant. He told me that as in "don't let anyone
else find out about that, they'll flip out." not that *he* was upset by
it. "Cute" is to the office atmosphere. I appreciated the warning,
although it was something I'd figured out for myself by that point =)
> I dunno. Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I would have just signed the
> cards with initials or something. Doing it and being done with it is
> less stress than worrying about them taking legal ramifications towards
> you. I don't think that by signing those cards you are professing your
> beliefs as a Christian. I know plenty of people who pretend like they
> are Christian by going to church every week, yet they cheat on their
> spouse, use illegal drugs, set up insurance fraud gimmicks (and this in
> only one person's actions I'm mentioning here!).
Yeah, I'd call you a weirdo <grin>. I like to think I'm a better person
than your "Christian" friend above.
> Of course, since you see your situation as shunning your own beliefs,
> that is what matters for you. Is it worth jeopardizing your job?
Quite simply, yes.
First, I highly doubt I'd lose my job over it. I doubt anyone besides
the administrative assistant (who's a friend of mine, and the person I
told I wouldn't sign the cards) will even notice I didn't sign them, I'm
just paranoid.
Second, I'm not all that in love with my job so if I *did* lose my job
over this I'd be happy to file a lawsuit and move on.
Jocelyn
Karen Simmons <klsi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Hmmm. Well we have a Christmas tree at the office as well ... but then
> there are only a handful of people in our office and we asked around
> first. Our three Jewish employees were more excited about it than the
> rest of us. I think it depends on the office and the people involved.
> I know if anyone had had any qualms, much less been offended by the
> idea, we wouldn't have done it.
We have a Christmas tree at our office, too. We also have a menorah,
though, and everyone here celebrates either Christmas or Chanukah. When we
first decided to put up decorations, the partners (one Christian and one
Jewish) went around and asked everyone if it was okay. If anyone had
objected, they wouldn't have done it, but everyone was excited about it, and
we all helped chose both the tree and the menorah.
Last year, everyone was invited to join in the lighting of the menorah each
night, but if anyone didn't want to join in, they didn't have to. (This
year the only person who knows the appropriate prayer will be away for
almost the whole time, so I don't know what we'll do).
Karen Simmons
>
> We also have a menorah, though,
Actually, I left that out. One of our Jewish employees did say "oh,
I'll bring in a menorah" and that was fine, too.
On a related note, my office manager is Jewish and she's very excited
about coming to help me decorate the tree on Saturday while Kevin's at
work. She said that she's always wanted to, but never had the chance
... so of course I invited her to help. IN return we've spent several
evenings during Chanukah with them and shared in the blessings (with our
atrocious accents) and the lighting of the candles.
It's kind of nice to share our holiday traditions with each other.
Karen
Karina Wright
: Robin wrote:
: >> My co-workers put up a Christmas tree, ornaments everywhere, and other
: >> Christmas related decorations and things. I think this is totally
: >> inappropriate for the office.
: Hmmm. Well we have a Christmas tree at the office as well ... but then
: there are only a handful of people in our office and we asked around
I don't think I clarified properly. Because I work in a huge office with
over a thousand people in the building, I forget about little offices with
just a few people in them. Obviously with a huge office, it's often
inappropriate and/or inconvenient to poll everyone on things like this.
And especially in a gov't office, where there is not supposed to be
religious influence.
--
Karina
HollyLewis
>> knew I was atheist, and actually cautioned me not to let that slip
>> around the office. Cute, huh?
Add this one to the I'm-glad-I-live-where-I-do archive.
It would make me nuts to have to "hide" my beliefs from the people I interact
with all day long every weekday. Sheesh.
Holly
HollyLewis
>pick out religiously-neutral cards - they usually end up being winter scenes
>of Central Park or something like that, with a similarly neutral message.
This is why Robin's story boggles my mind -- I thought *every* business, with
the possible exception of a few small contractors and the like which include
overtly religious messages in *all* of their advertising etc., would go the
neutral route.
In fact, it's become quite common here for businesses to send cards or
appreciation gifts to their customers for *Thanksgiving* instead. (Thank you
for your patronage...) Much more appropriate, nu?
Holly
Lynn
while..
What do people do that don't celebrate Christmas? I mean, how can
you avoid it, it's in your face everywhere!
I guess it's just getting on my nerves. Christmas around here isn't
going to be much different than any other time of year. I've got the "I
miss my mom and dad and Christmas' past" on my mind, Arvid's kids are
1500 miles away, I've been too sick to get out and buy anything for Sara
yet and money is tight anyway, she's going to be with her grandparents
and biological father on Christmas Day and Arvid's not all that "into"
Christmas in the first place.
Sorry this turned into a whine, I really do want to know just how
people that don't celebrate Christmas can deal with it all.
Lynn
--
"parentless" e-mail support group forming -
http://www.egroups.com/group/parentless
Denise~*
>Our company is sending out xmas cards
I think if they accept your refusal, then that would be OK, and the
company has every right (although stupid) to send out any card that
they want to (assuming this is a non-government owned company)
If they argued with you about the signing of the card, then that would
be a whole different story.
Denise og Brian (Spaz og Bobbi, fuglene med fjærer)
Lystig Jul og et Glad Nytt År. Unngå å ete lutefisk og bare et krumkake og De skal overleve denne fridagsesong!
Lyn
discussion might be in order. In the day and age of diversity
awareness, you would think they would be a little more sensitive.
-L.
In article <91apeu$sl3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
> Ugh.
>
> Our company is sending out xmas cards, and we're all expected to sign
> them. Problem? They're *very* religious. We're not talking "Merry
> Christmas", we're talking about "our saviour". Anyhow, I refused.
>
> I know that I'm perfectly within my rights, and that the law prohibits
> job descrimination on the basis of religion, but that hasn't slowed my
> pulse down any =(
>
Barbara Warner
spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> Of course, since you see your situation as shunning your own beliefs,
> that is what matters for you. Is it worth jeopardizing your job?
IMO, and IME experience: The question really is "is your job worth
jeopardizing your beliefs"?
Better yet, "is it fair that your job should cause you to jeopardize
your beliefs". I'm not a lawyer yet and certainly no expert on American
employment and human rights law, but in Canada, that sort of
'requirement' would likely constitute improper/illegal behaviour. The
employer would have a duty to accomodate differences to the point of
hardship, and moreover, would have a duty *not* to introduce irrelevant
personal beliefs into the workplace (recalling here that Robin works at
an office not a religious or social organisation).
Just some more food for thought ;-)
-Barbara
Megan
Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
> Would you be surprised if I told you we have one too? Actually, one
of
> my co-workers is a Jehovah's Witness also. I wonder if anyone asked
her
> if she'd be bothered by the tree?
Y'know, I used to work in a supermarket, in the admin office, when I
was a student. Most of the office were Hindu, with a couple of
Christians, an agnostic and a Muslim. I figured I wouldn't give out
Christmas cards to all and sundry, but wait and give them to those who
gave me one - in order not to offend.
Well, the receptionist and another colleague decorated the whole office
in early December (both fairly devout Hindus - one regularly fasted to
the merriment of our less devout colleagues) and absolutely everyone
gave our Christmas cards, wished me a Merry Christmas, took their kids
to see Santa at the local shopping centre, etc etc. They were all
planning on celebrating Christmas in some secular fashion (most had
trees, gave presents to the family, held get togethers on Christmas Day
with their families).
I guess it proves what I have always felt was that Christmas has almost
become two separate entities in this country - a minority participate
in the religious celebration through churches, or private observance,
but the vast majority celebrate the secular gift giving, family get
together (remember, we don't have an equivalent to Thanksgiving) and
decorating the house to cheer everything up in the middle of winter
aspects (which aren't really based on Christian teachings anyway -
they're not unChristian, but their origins are far far older).
Basically Christmas has almost returned to its origins as a celtic mid-
winter celebration here. I think the separation of the two is a good
idea, but Christmas cards are almost teh last thing to go. Mine are a
mix of religious (which I have tried to send only to people I know who
are observant) and non-religious but still Christmas cards.
Anyway, my observations from this side of the pond, where Christmas
seems to be more universal.
Megan
--
Megan Montgomery
e-mail to this address is not checked!
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
>> Understandably! If it's any comfort, I wouldn't have signed either.
>
>That is a comfort, thanks. I've been anxiously checking back in every
>since I posted, waiting for someone to tell me I'm over-reacting.
You're not over-reacting. It's possible to overreact to this kind of
thing -- storming into your boss' office throwing fits would do it --
but refusing to sign does not qualify. Add me to the list of people
who wouldn't sign it in your position.
Best of luck with it.
-Naomi
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
>While I'm here, anyone have thoughts on a non-confrontational "give as
>little information away as possible about my religious preferences" way
>to explain why I'm not signing if I'm questioned about it?
"I'd rather not, for religious reasons." When asked what religion:
"I'm afraid I feel my religious preferences are a personal thing and
I'd rather not discuss it. I just don't feel able to sign that card."
Repeat the latter to every followup question till they get bored with
hearing it.
-Naomi
Ron Ng
>thing -- storming into your boss' office throwing fits would do it
How would you know? You just sit on your butt all day and are too lazy to even
get your Secret Snowflake a gift!
Ron Ng Knows!
Lyn
they put up trees in each building. The one in the main building
(global hqtrs.) was decorated with "gardening" and "crops" theme..ie.
corn ear ornaments, little shovels, sunflowers, seed packets, a little
white picket fence garland, etc. It was really cute. BUT...I think it
was totally inappropriate in a company that has offices in almost every
country...we had many people - especially in R&D - of different
faiths.
I don't think a Menorah in addition to a tree is diversity...what about
those who practice Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, Atheism, or "none of the
above", etc.? Accommodating a few is still not fair to the rest.
Also, at one of the R&D award ceremonies, they had a Christian prayer
("In the name of the Lord") before the meal. Afterward, they got
almost 250 letters of suggestion (of 450 employees in attendance - a
pretty good response rate for the group, as compared to other "issues")
to nix the Christian prayer for the next dinner.
It was interesting...this was a company that has diversity as one of
its core values, yet let something like this slip through the cracks.
I was chastised (by my group leader) for suggesting that they have a
Holiday Party or Winter Party instead of a Christmas Party. They also
had an organization soliciting Christian prayer in the office, which I
thought was inappropriate. When I talked to someone about it (head of
R&D), he didn't get it until I said, "Well, how would you feel if I
started soliciting for Satan worship in the office?" A lightbulb went
off over his head. I truly don't think he ever considered that there
was anyone other than Christians working there...
-L.
In article <3a39...@news.victoria.tc.ca>,
drw...@my-deja.com
> My co-workers put up a Christmas tree, ornaments everywhere, and other
> Christmas related decorations and things. I think this is totally
> inappropriate for the office.
I was surprised, when walking in from the parking lot a couple weeks
ago, to see Xmas decorations on campus here. Our Jewish population is so
large that we have a kosher section in the cafeteria (but I don't see
anything Hanukah-esque around), and our Catholic population is also huge
(but I don't see any Advent purple either), so it seems *odd* to be
promoting Xmas this early.
My office is decorated only in tropical-colored post-it notes of things
I have to remember to do before the end of the semester.
Wende
HeyPa...@aol.com
I agree, Karen.. when I was in college, I had several Jewish friends.
We didn't get time off for Passover most years, and developed a habit
of everyone getting together for the Sader. It was fascinating to me
to learn more about it (I knew the story from the Bible, but not much
about the celebration). We also had a "Thanksgiving Dinner" before we
all went home for the holiday where everyone contributed something from
their own tradition for the holiday.. and we shared Christmas and
traditions with everyone who was interested.
I now have a good friend who converted to Judaism when she was
married. We celebrate most holidays and events in each other's homes.
It's been great fun for all...
Paula
aMAZon
Lyn wrote:
>
> I used to work for a major agricultural chemical company. Every year,
> they put up trees in each building. The one in the main building
> (global hqtrs.) was decorated with "gardening" and "crops" theme..ie.
> corn ear ornaments, little shovels, sunflowers, seed packets, a little
> white picket fence garland, etc. It was really cute. BUT...I think it
> was totally inappropriate in a company that has offices in almost every
> country...we had many people - especially in R&D - of different
> faiths.
The first time I ran into an attitude like this, I was perplexed.
I came from a parochial background; virtually everyone I was in
contact with, in my neighborhood, in school, etc., was Catholic.
It was my mindset, my environment.
When I started at a telecommunications R&D place, I saw they put up
a display of poinsettia plants in the shape of a tree. That didn't
seem to me to be overly sectarian, but there was one curmudgeon
who always complained about it. I listened to his arguments,
and find that, well, he did make some sense.
Which leads me to a wish that we could make a distinction between
the religious aspects of Christmas and a general-good-will feeling
around "the holidays".
--
aMAZon
zesz...@worldnet.att.net
"It's never too late to have a happy childhood."
drw...@my-deja.com
> cards with initials or something. Doing it and being done with it is
> less stress than worrying about them taking legal ramifications
towards
> you. I don't think that by signing those cards you are professing
your
> beliefs as a Christian. I know plenty of people who pretend like they
> are Christian by going to church every week, yet they cheat on their
> spouse, use illegal drugs, set up insurance fraud gimmicks (and this
in
> only one person's actions I'm mentioning here!).
I dunno -- as a practicing Catholic (hoping some day to get it right),
I'm very uncomfortable with urging people to pretend to go along with
Christian beliefs. As Tracy points out, we have enough people on board
already who are deliberately "faking it" for their own benefit (though
let's hope some are simply misguided and confused) -- I'd rather
discourage that than encourage it.
> I work in an environment that could be construed as going against my
> Christian belief (to some extent). The clinical research center where
> all our research patients are enrolled advises pts. to use BC methods.
> They're not preaching abstinence. They administer drugs for STDs.
> Many of the pts. are alcohol or drug-addicted. It isn't our place to
> advise them on those matters though.
I'm confused. I can't remember what denomination you are, Tracy, but
mine is one of the stricter ones about condemning "relaxing" outside
marriage, and we have no problems with treating STDs or providing
medical treatment for people with addictions. I'd assumed that treating
people in need -- rather than turning them away because of their reasons
for being in need -- followed from Jesus' "whatever you do for the least
of these, you do for me."
Wende
Susan Behr MacDuffee
On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 HeyPa...@aol.com wrote:
> I agree, Karen.. when I was in college, I had several Jewish friends.
> We didn't get time off for Passover most years, and developed a habit
> of everyone getting together for the Sader.
A question to the NYers and anyone else who this may apply to:
Do you get off for the Jewish holidays like Yom Kippur? I ask because I
have a friend who works in a lawyers office in NYC and when he came down
for our w*dding in October 1998 he had some days off because of the
corresponding Jewish holidays. I didn't know if this is just something
that his office does, or if it is a common practice where there is a big
Jewish population.
TIA,
Susan
Robin
I like it. Especially combined with Josie's suggestion as a response to
the "what religion" question.
You guys are the best!
Robin
Ha! No. We have an HR *person* who doesn't particularly like me.
enligthenment
> discussion might be in order. In the day and age of diversity
> awareness, you would think they would be a little more sensitive.
I'm pretty happy with the "I'd rather not, for religious reasons." and
then "I like to keep politics and religion out of the office" if pressed
on "which one".
I would be comfortable talking to my boss about it, so if any more is
said, I will. He's the CFO and very "business minded" so I think he'd
respond well.
Geri
I take off whenever I want; I'm self-employed ;-)
Okay, enough smarty-pantsing. My experience is that it depends on the
office. I've never worked in an office that specifically closed for
Jewish holidays, but in every place I've ever worked, it was not given
a second thought if Jews (or anyone else) took off on religious
holidays.
Ron deals with the NASDAQ at work, and I can tell you that the stock
markets are open on Jewish holidays. But lots of people take off.
Interestingly, the market is closed on Good Friday though...but not
because it's Good Friday, per se. It's some old tradition that escapes
me just now.
I grew up in the NY area, and I'll also say that many public schools
are closed on Jewish holidays, as well as the Christian "biggies" --
Christmas, Easter Holy Week.
Robin
<Pine.GSO.4.10.100121...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>,
Susan Behr MacDuffee <sb...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu> wrote:
> A question to the NYers and anyone else who this may apply to:
>
> Do you get off for the Jewish holidays like Yom Kippur? I ask because
I
> have a friend who works in a lawyers office in NYC and when he came
down
> for our w*dding in October 1998 he had some days off because of the
> corresponding Jewish holidays. I didn't know if this is just something
> that his office does, or if it is a common practice where there is a
big
> Jewish population.
I grew up in an area with a large Jewish population, and IIRC we did get
some of the Jewish holidays off.
KathyK
ger...@earthlink.net (Geri ) wrote:
> >A question to the NYers and anyone else who this may apply to:
> >
> >Do you get off for the Jewish holidays like Yom Kippur?
> Okay, enough smarty-pantsing. My experience is that it depends on the
> office. I've never worked in an office that specifically closed for
> Jewish holidays, but in every place I've ever worked, it was not given
> a second thought if Jews (or anyone else) took off on religious
> holidays.
>
My company used to offer three floating holidays per year, which could
be used for any religious holiday (or non-religious reason) that the
employee chose. But then, they decided to start shutting down for the
week beteen Christmas and New Year Day, and the holidays that used to
be floating were moved to that week.
After we merged, they came up with a personal day policy (up to 5 per
year). Personal days are not as personal as you'd think, since you
have to have a pretty darn good reason to take one. I believe that
religious observation is listed as one of the reasons that is
acceptable for taking a personal day.
Next year, they're trying to institute some sort of strange schedule in
the summer so that we'll have 1 4-day weekend a month all summer long
so that they can perform non-routine maintenance. It looks awfully
confusing, but I just sort of brushed it off, since I should be out on
leave as of ~July 1st, so I'll only have to deal with the confusion in
June.
--
Kathy
TDC Snow White and Keeper of Sockpuppets
edd 8/3/01
spacy...@my-deja.com
cleo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <91be4i$faf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > I dunno. Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I would have just signed the
> > cards with initials or something. Doing it and being done with it
is
> > less stress than worrying about them taking legal ramifications
towards
> > you. I don't think that by signing those cards you are professing
your
> > beliefs as a Christian. I know plenty of people who pretend like
they
> > are Christian by going to church every week, yet they cheat on their
> > spouse, use illegal drugs, set up insurance fraud gimmicks (and
this in
> > only one person's actions I'm mentioning here!).
>
right?
> Assuming that's so, it isn't exactly a ringing endorsement that Robin
do the
> same kind of thing with respect to her employer's Xmas cards.
Right. I do not advocate the pretend Christian bahavior. My point is
that Robin isn't "pretending" to be Christian by signing the card. She
still believes what she believes.
>
> > I work in an environment that could be construed as going against my
> > Christian belief (to some extent). The clinical research center
where
> > all our research patients are enrolled advises pts. to use BC
methods.
> > They're not preaching abstinence. They administer drugs for STDs.
> > Many of the pts. are alcohol or drug-addicted.
>
> It is against Christian beliefs to treat people for STD's? I have
trouble
> believing that the Christian thing to do is to let people die of
treatable
> infections.
You misunderstand. It is against Catholic beliefs to endorse any type
of BC that isn't abstinence. It is not against the beliefs to treat
the infected patients.
Same for substance abuse, it can't really be the Christian thing
> to do to not treat or refer patients with addiction problems. You've
> befuddled me.
Right. But, they're not refering the patients with addictions. And,
well, they're not *allowed* to treat them. They come to enroll in
studies for research involving STDs/BV, etc.
The difference though is that this doesn't make me feel any less
faithful to my faith. In Robin's case, maybe it does (make her feel
faithful to a faith she doesn't believe in). I was just giving her
another perspective, that's all.
Tracy
spacy...@my-deja.com
Karen Simmons <klsi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> cleo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > You don't really advocate this "pretend Christian" behavior though,
> > right?
>
> I agree. I wasn't sure how to phrase what I wanted to say when I
first
> read that paragraph, but I think it's something like: others
> hypocritical actions shouldn't be a guideline for one's own
behavior. I
> think Robin is right for *not* being a hypocrit and standing her
ground.
I don't disagree. I don't think other's hypocritical actions should be
a guideline either. But, I personally don't think it would be
hypocritical of Robin to sign the cards. I think it is fine that she
doesn't sign them. I just wouldn't jeopardize my job for it.
>
> >> I work in an environment that could be construed as going against
my
> >> Christian belief (to some extent). The clinical research center
where
> >> all our research patients are enrolled advises pts. to use BC
methods.
> >> They're not preaching abstinence. They administer drugs for STDs.
> >> Many of the pts. are alcohol or drug-addicted.
> >
> > It is against Christian beliefs to treat people for STD's?
>
> I realize that there are Catholic issues with BC, but in general, I
> don't believe that BC is unChristian.
I just want to point out that I did not say it goes against all
Christian beliefs to be against BC. I did say that some things could
be construed as going against *my* Christian beliefs (which happen to
be Catholic).
And as far as the patients being
> alcohol and drug addicted, nowhere did Christ say that you should
treat
> those "worthy" of being treated, nor did He ever say that alcoholics
or
> drug addicts were less worthy than anyone else.
You've lost me here....I'm not sure what this has to do with what I was
saying.
spacy...@my-deja.com
Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2000 21:30:00 GMT, spacy...@my-deja.com wrote...
> > In article <91bd2u$ect$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Robin <rob...@softhome.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Here, OTOH. Oy-vey! I feel like quite the heathen. My former
boss
> > > knew I was atheist, and actually cautioned me not to let that slip
> > > around the office. Cute, huh?
>
> > At least he didn't fire you. I'd be glad he gave me a warning. It
> > really isn't anyone's business what you believe, but it is probably
> > better to know in advance (IMO) if your co-workers will chastise you
> > for some comment or whatever.
>
> Oh--that wasn't what I meant. He told me that as in "don't let
anyone
> else find out about that, they'll flip out." not that *he* was upset
by
> it. "Cute" is to the office atmosphere. I appreciated the warning,
> although it was something I'd figured out for myself by that point =)
Ooops, now I see what you mean. I was seeing it from the other
perspective.
>
> > I dunno. Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I would have just signed the
> > cards with initials or something. Doing it and being done with it
is
> > less stress than worrying about them taking legal ramifications
towards
> > you. I don't think that by signing those cards you are professing
your
> > beliefs as a Christian. I know plenty of people who pretend like
they
> > are Christian by going to church every week, yet they cheat on their
> > spouse, use illegal drugs, set up insurance fraud gimmicks (and
this in
> > only one person's actions I'm mentioning here!).
>
> Yeah, I'd call you a weirdo <grin>. I like to think I'm a better
person
> than your "Christian" friend above.
Yikes! That person mentioned above is most definitely *not* a friend.
I have the misfortune of ever knowing him. It thoroughly disgusts me
that someone acts like that. See I think it is different than your
situation though. He is trying to act like a Christian, but isn't
living his life that way. You don't believe in Christianity (at least
that is my assumption, apologies if I'm wrong), hence you live your
life as a non-believer. I don't think that by scribbling your initials
in a "Savior"-istic card, that you are changing your faith by the way
your live. I'm not sure if that makes much sense to you, but I don't
know a better way to explain it.
>
> > Of course, since you see your situation as shunning your own
beliefs,
> > that is what matters for you. Is it worth jeopardizing your job?
>
> Quite simply, yes.
>
> First, I highly doubt I'd lose my job over it.
I agree. But, this thread had already headed in that direction before
my first post (talk of how they could just claim you weren't a good
worker, etc)...and that's why I decided to post.
I doubt anyone besides
> the administrative assistant (who's a friend of mine, and the person
I
> told I wouldn't sign the cards) will even notice I didn't sign them,
I'm
> just paranoid.
I agree again. And, well, if you were confronted about it (which is
highly unlikely), you would just explain nicely that you don't believe
in all that "Savior" type of stuff, right?
>
> Second, I'm not all that in love with my job so if I *did* lose my
job
> over this I'd be happy to file a lawsuit and move on.
As you would have every right to.
KathyK
spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > >> I work in an environment that could be construed as going against
> my
> > >> Christian belief (to some extent). The clinical research center
> where
> > >> all our research patients are enrolled advises pts. to use BC
> methods.
> > >> They're not preaching abstinence. They administer drugs for
STDs.
> > >> Many of the pts. are alcohol or drug-addicted.
> > >
> You've lost me here....I'm not sure what this has to do with what I
was
> saying.
Tracy - It seems that what you were saying is not quite clear. From
the way I'm reading it, it looks like you're saying that the following
things go against your beliefs as a Catholic: advising pts to use BC,
administering drugs for STDs, and treating alcohol and drug-addicted
patients.
I'm trying really hard to figure out exactly what you meant by the
quote that everyone else also seems to have confusion with. Maybe you
are saying that the fact that they do not preach abstinence to the
patients with STDs and addiction is what goes against your belief
system - not the fact that they're treating them in the first place?
This sort of reminds me of an argument Stan and I had when we left
church one day. There was a pamphlet on the table near the door about
living with AIDS (or something like that). Stan said that he was
surprised to see such a thing, because he believed that the Catholic
church thought that AIDS is a disease that afflicts only homosexuals,
and the Catholic church is not accepting of homosexuals. This really
angered me, because I have never ever seen or heard anything anti-AIDS
patients from any Catholic source, plus it is common knowledge (which
the Church is most certainly aware of) that AIDS is *not* a disease
that only affects homosexuals, and that it is transmitted through blood
transfusions and unprotected sex betweeen heterosexuals as well. He
insisted that the Church is in fact unaware of this information and
chooses to continue to think that AIDS is something that only
homosexuals can get. It made me very angry that he believed that this
is the Church's viewpoint (I should just point out that Stan does not
believe that only homosexuals have AIDS, but that he believes that this
is the stance of the Catholic Church). I don't ever think we resolved
that argument. But, in any case, I was very angry with him because he
was saying that according to the church we belong to, people with AIDS
should not be acknowledged/treated/cared for/whatever.
Maybe people are reacting to your statements the way I reacted to what
Stan was saying (but by your responses it seems that you aren't saying
what other people seem to think you are saying).
--
Kathy
TDC Snow White and Keeper of Sockpuppets
edd 8/3/01
spacy...@my-deja.com
drw...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <91be4i$faf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > I dunno. Maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I would have just signed the
> > cards with initials or something. Doing it and being done with it
is
> > less stress than worrying about them taking legal ramifications
> towards
> > you. I don't think that by signing those cards you are professing
> your
> > beliefs as a Christian. I know plenty of people who pretend like
they
> > are Christian by going to church every week, yet they cheat on their
> > spouse, use illegal drugs, set up insurance fraud gimmicks (and this
> in
> > only one person's actions I'm mentioning here!).
>
> I dunno -- as a practicing Catholic (hoping some day to get it right),
> I'm very uncomfortable with urging people to pretend to go along with
> Christian beliefs. As Tracy points out, we have enough people on board
> already who are deliberately "faking it" for their own benefit (though
> let's hope some are simply misguided and confused) -- I'd rather
> discourage that than encourage it.
I see it a little differently (maybe?). I think these people *think*
they are Christian (Catholic in this case), because they fulfil the go-
to-Church-once-a-week requirement. They think that is their ticket
in. I don't know if they are deliberatly "faking it". I think they
really believe that what they do is okay since they go to church. In
Robin's case, I don't believe that she is "faking" anything by signing
the cards. She isn't convincing herself that she is Christian if she
signs them, nor is she trying to convince anyone else.
>
> > I work in an environment that could be construed as going against my
> > Christian belief (to some extent). The clinical research center
where
> > all our research patients are enrolled advises pts. to use BC
methods.
> > They're not preaching abstinence. They administer drugs for STDs.
> > Many of the pts. are alcohol or drug-addicted. It isn't our place
to
> > advise them on those matters though.
>
> I'm confused. I can't remember what denomination you are, Tracy, but
> mine is one of the stricter ones about condemning "relaxing" outside
> marriage, and we have no problems with treating STDs or providing
> medical treatment for people with addictions. I'd assumed that
treating
> people in need -- rather than turning them away because of their
reasons
> for being in need -- followed from Jesus' "whatever you do for the
least
> of these, you do for me."
>
I'm Roman Catholic. And again the point is that we aren't preaching
abstinence to those who are not married. And, we aren't treating those
with substance addictions (meaning we aren't treated their substance
addiction, just their infectious disease).
FWIW, I don't feel that the work completely goes against my religion.
I'm also "okay" with this (meaning it doesn't bother me to the point
where I think about it much, which may be due to the fact that I
personally do not interact face-to-face with the patients). I don't
feel like I am condemning my beliefs. The research we do can greatly
impact the future health of many women (regardless of their
religion/beliefs). And it is the type of research that wouldn't be
allowed to happen at a Catholic hospital.
Then again, maybe I'm just a bad Catholic?
Tracy
ale...@my-deja.com
KathyK <kathry...@pharma.novartis.com> wrote:
>
> My company used to offer three floating holidays per year, which could
> be used for any religious holiday (or non-religious reason) that the
> employee chose. But then, they decided to start shutting down for the
> week beteen Christmas and New Year Day, and the holidays that used to
> be floating were moved to that week.
>
We also have the personal 5 personal days/floating holidays combo, but
we can take it whenever we want regardless is it's a holiday or not.
Mike's office (mostly Jewish) also had floating holidays, and the office
is pretty empty during any Jewish holidays.
When I went to Grad school (state school in NY) we did get some Jewish
holidays off but in business world most people I know have sort
variation of the floating holiday concept.
Alena
spacy...@my-deja.com
Karen Simmons <klsi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Jocelyn wrote:
> >
> > We also have a menorah, though,
>
> Actually, I left that out. One of our Jewish employees did say "oh,
> I'll bring in a menorah" and that was fine, too.
>
> On a related note, my office manager is Jewish and she's very excited
> about coming to help me decorate the tree on Saturday while Kevin's at
> work. She said that she's always wanted to, but never had the chance
> ... so of course I invited her to help. IN return we've spent several
> evenings during Chanukah with them and shared in the blessings (with
our
> atrocious accents) and the lighting of the candles.
>
> It's kind of nice to share our holiday traditions with each other.
>
>
Okay, I have to ask. How is this different then Robin signing the
card? I mean, I already know the answer to it: They want to celebrate
trimming the tree with you, and you want to celebrate lighting the
menorah with them, but Robin doesn't want to sign the card. That is
all fine. But if it is hypocritical for Robin to sign the card, then
it is hypocritical of Christians to want to celebrate Chanukah and Jews
to want to celebrate Christmas.
I personally don't believe any of it is hypocritical; I'm just looking
for the difference in your thinking. Where is the line drawn?
I don't mean this in a flammatory way, I'm really curious.
Tracy
tina_...@my-deja.com
spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> You misunderstand. It is against Catholic beliefs to endorse any type
> of BC that isn't abstinence. It is not against the beliefs to treat
> the infected patients.
That's not true. The Catholic church does endorse NFP.
Tina
--
Email at this address is rarely read.
Please post replies, or send them to:
tina_siracusa -at- yahoo -dot- com
Julie Hauer
>A question to the NYers and anyone else who this may apply to:
>
>Do you get off for the Jewish holidays like Yom Kippur?
I've never had off for the Jewish holidays. Not when I was in school and not in
the work force. I remember having to take a midterm in college on Yom Kippur
once. No makeups were allowed for any reason with this professor.
The best place I've worked at regarding religion is the National Cathedral. I
had a great boss and because I always volunteered to work on Christmas and
Easter and I did lots of overtime around Christmas, there was never a problem
with my taking off for the Jewish holidays and it didn't count against my annual
leave.
Julie
aMAZon
Susan Behr MacDuffee wrote:
>
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2000 HeyPa...@aol.com wrote:
>
> > I agree, Karen.. when I was in college, I had several Jewish friends.
> > We didn't get time off for Passover most years, and developed a habit
> > of everyone getting together for the Sader.
>
> A question to the NYers and anyone else who this may apply to:
>
> Do you get off for the Jewish holidays like Yom Kippur?
I don't recall all the holidays Her Majesty's school district
has, but I think Yom Kippur might be one of them. I could look
at the calendar and summarize, if you'd like.
Karen Simmons
spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Okay, I have to ask. How is this different then Robin signing the
> card? I mean, I already know the answer to it: They want to
> celebrate trimming the tree with you, and you want to celebrate
> lighting the menorah with them, but Robin doesn't want to sign the
> card. That is all fine. But if it is hypocritical for Robin to sign
> the card, then it is hypocritical of Christians to want to celebrate
> Chanukah and Jews to want to celebrate Christmas.
That's a valid question and I'll try to explain it clearly, although I'm
having a hard time getting just the right words:
Robin was asked to sign a card that professed something that she does
not believe in. It's not the signing of the card per se that's
hypocritical - it's that Robin has expressed that the signing of the
card makes her uncomfortable because do to so would imply that she
believes and supports the message of the card ... and that's what would
be hypocritical.
However, she's not unwilling to learn about other's religions and
traditions and might ... if the opportunity was offered ... participate
in their traditions with the understanding that she didn't necessarily
BELIEVE in them, but that she was most interested in learning about them
and experiencing how others celebrated their particular traditions. (Not
to speak for Robin, but carrying this to a logical conclusion for the
sake of my definition! *grin*)
For example ... I participated in Channukah prayers with my office
manager's family because she wanted to share her traditions with us.
That doesn't make me a hypocrite: I never implied that I believed the
same as she did, I participated with the understanding that I was
learning about her culture. By the same token, when she comes to help
me decorate my tree, she's not saying that she believes what it stands
for, but she's sharing my faith and traditions with me.
It's all in the intentions ... IMO.
Karen
Sarah
Karen Simmons <klsi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> However, she's not unwilling to learn about other's religions and
> traditions and might ... if the opportunity was offered ...
participate
> in their traditions with the understanding that she didn't necessarily
> BELIEVE in them, but that she was most interested in learning about
them
> and experiencing how others celebrated their particular traditions.
Right.
Similarly (though it's not entirely the same thing), I know quite a few
Jews who have adopted some Christmas traditions - for example, I have
one friend who hangs stockings on her mantle and has a small Christmas
tree in her home. It doesn't take the place of the menorah and it
doesn't mean that she believes in any Christian symbolism, she's just
adopted some of the more secular traditions because she likes them. DH
and I, similarly, make dreidel cookies along with our gingerbread men,
because we liked playing with dreidels as kids (part of our
school-enforced "learn other traditions" segment of our December lessons
- we had no Jewish families in our school), and we've both always had
gelt in our stockings.
I really like learning about other traditions, but just because I go to
a friend's Passover seder doesn't mean I am interested in converting.
To me, it's the same thing as, oh, participating in my IL's Polish
holiday traditions. Doing them doesn't make me Polish, it just makes me
more knowledgeable about their background, makes me closer to them, and
makes me a more well-rounded person.
Sarah
--
Sarah M. in Virginia
Susan Behr MacDuffee
On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, aMAZon wrote:
> I don't recall all the holidays Her Majesty's school district
> has, but I think Yom Kippur might be one of them. I could look
> at the calendar and summarize, if you'd like.
No need for that but thanks :) and thanks for all of the other replies as
well.
--Susan
Susan Behr MacDuffee
On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Sarah wrote:
> Similarly (though it's not entirely the same thing), I know quite a few
> Jews who have adopted some Christmas traditions - for example, I have
> one friend who hangs stockings on her mantle and has a small Christmas
> tree in her home.
A friend of my mother's is a Christian married to a rabbi and she does
something similar. She puts up a tree and calls it a Hanukkah bush.
--Susan
Carrie
JH <jea...@thinds.com> wrote:
> KathyK wrote:
>
> >
> > You're not over reacting at all. Unless you're actually working for
a
> > church (which you're not), no company should be pushing any sort of
> > religion down their employees or clients throats. Asking you to
sign a
> > card that is so obviously religion goes against your basic belief
> > system, and you have every right not to sign it.
> >
>
> Imo, I believe she is partially over reacting. Looking from the
viewpoint
> of the business owner who has invested his own time, money, heart and
soul
> building his own business from scratch, I believe he does have the
right to
> define his company as he chooses. It is apparent he has done so by
the
> choice of corporate Christmas cards.
>
I agree with Jeanne that the employer (company, whatever) has every
right to send out religious Christmas cards if they so choose. It's
what they believe, it's what Christmas means to them, etc. That said, I
also think that Robin has every right NOT to sign the card, because she
is the employee and the employer's beliefs do not have to reflect her
own...
>
> I wouldn't have signed a Saturnalia, Happy Birthday Mithras!, or
Kwanzaa
> cards either, btw.
Just like Robin didn't sign said Christmas card ;-)
Carrie
--
Posting from beautiful Honolulu, HI
Email at this address is NEVER answered
email: dkimball AT aloha dot net
spacy...@my-deja.com
tina_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <91djoh$6k1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > You misunderstand. It is against Catholic beliefs to endorse any
type
> > of BC that isn't abstinence. It is not against the beliefs to treat
> > the infected patients.
>
> That's not true. The Catholic church does endorse NFP.
>
>
True, but not for those who are not married (which most of our pts. are
not).
Tracy
spacy...@my-deja.com
KathyK <kathry...@pharma.novartis.com> wrote:
> In article <91dk4j$6q3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > >> I work in an environment that could be construed as going
against
> > my
> > > >> Christian belief (to some extent). The clinical research
center
> > where
> > > >> all our research patients are enrolled advises pts. to use BC
> > methods.
> > > >> They're not preaching abstinence. They administer drugs for
> STDs.
> > > >> Many of the pts. are alcohol or drug-addicted.
> > > >
>
> > You've lost me here....I'm not sure what this has to do with what I
> was
> > saying.
>
> Tracy - It seems that what you were saying is not quite clear. From
> the way I'm reading it, it looks like you're saying that the following
> things go against your beliefs as a Catholic: advising pts to use BC,
> administering drugs for STDs, and treating alcohol and drug-addicted
> patients.
Yes, advising pts. to use condoms does go against the Catholic belief.
AFAIK, the Catholic church only accepts abstinence as a form of BC.
No, administering drugs to pts. with STDs does not go against Catholic
beliefs. I can see how the way I have it written it is confusing. My
apologies. I put those two sentences together: "They are not
preaching abstinence. They administer drugs for STDs." as a way of
showing that to keep the research center in operation, we need pts. who
have STDs. It is not out (they're) place to tell them to stop have s*x.
Again, as I've said in other posts, they are not treating the alcohol
and drug-addicted pts. That is the thing that seemingly I should be
against being a Catholic. They *should* be treating them. But, they
aren't allowed.
>
> I'm trying really hard to figure out exactly what you meant by the
> quote that everyone else also seems to have confusion with. Maybe you
> are saying that the fact that they do not preach abstinence to the
> patients with STDs and addiction is what goes against your belief
> system - not the fact that they're treating them in the first place?
Well, it doesn't go againt my personal belief system, but it does go
against my Catholic belief system. And, well, I realize that may be
even more confusing. I mean, I'm okay with it since it is practical
and realistic. And, it is my j-o-b, not my life.
Yeah, it's sort of like your argument with Stan. He has a certain
belief that he believes the church holds (only homosexuals have AIDS),
but he himself doesn't believe it. There are some things that my
church/religion believe/endorse, that I'm okay going against (like not
preaching abstinence to pts.).
Hope this makes sense.
Tracy
spacy...@my-deja.com
Karen Simmons <klsi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Thanks for responding. I do see your point.
Tracy
Sarah
<Pine.GSO.4.10.100121...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>,
Susan Behr MacDuffee <sb...@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu> wrote:
> A question to the NYers and anyone else who this may apply to:
>
> Do you get off for the Jewish holidays like Yom Kippur?
At my place of employment, we don't have Jewish holidays off, but the
holidays we *do* have off are floating. So my Jewish friends here will
work on Christmas, Good Friday, etc. and float the holidays so that they
can Yom Kippur off or whatever.
When I was in grade school (in CT), I can only think of a handful of
Jewish families in our town (and, correspondingly, only a handful of
Jewish students in our schools). We had school on Jewish holidays, but
the teachers weren't allowed to assign homework or have tests (for
everyone!, which we all LOVED), and if the Jewish kids chose to stay
home, the absense didn't count. In college, it was much the same. The
University of Rochester (where I went) has a sizeable Jewish population
(I think that, on average, about 20% of the student body is Jewish).
Professors weren't allowed to have exams or major projects/papers due on
Jewish holidays, and reading/exam periods were adjusted as much as
possible to accomodate everyone.
Sarah
--
Sarah M. in Virginia
Kris Hildrum
>> Tracy - It seems that what you were saying is not quite clear. From
>> the way I'm reading it, it looks like you're saying that the following
>> things go against your beliefs as a Catholic: advising pts to use BC,
>> administering drugs for STDs, and treating alcohol and drug-addicted
>> patients.
>
>Yes, advising pts. to use condoms does go against the Catholic belief.
>AFAIK, the Catholic church only accepts abstinence as a form of BC.
Are you sure about this? I read a rather extensive argument from
a Catholic web site (it claimed to be Catholic) that said basically that
the sin of having sex outside of marriage is not compounded by using a
condom. The argument was (as I recall) that sex outside of marriage was
bad (at least partly) because it wasn't being considerate toward one's
partner, and that not using a condom was showing even less consideration
for your partner. It didn't go so far as to say that condom use was okay,
but it implied that having sex outside of marriage wasn't made better by
skipping the condom. I don't know how representative this is/was of
Catholic beliefs, though.
Kris
Robin
spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I agree again. And, well, if you were confronted about it (which is
> highly unlikely), you would just explain nicely that you don't believe
> in all that "Savior" type of stuff, right?
Well, that's the thing. I'd prefer not to. I'd like to keep my
religious beliefs as far away from my office as humanly possible,
without compromising them. Hence, the request for non-confrontational
responses if I *am* questioned about it. As I mentioned, there's
another non-christian [1] in the office (a jehovah's witness) and her
religion has been made into an "issue" on several occasions. Not by
her--I expect it first came up when she declined to sign a birthday card
and explained why--but now people make a big deal of whispering "and
don't pass it to Mary! She's a JW, you know." when birthday cards are
circulated. I've actually gotten "talked to" (not by a supervisor, just
an office busybody) for passing a birthday card to Mary accidentally. I
don't want my religious beliefs to be the first thing people think about
when they think of me.
It's sort of like being a vegetarian, which I was until very recently.
My intention was to not let anyone at the office know that I was,
because it tends to have the same effect as above. Of course, then I
had a coworker (the same busybody as above, as luck would have it)
"force it out of me"--I think she was planning an office lunch, and I
asked her what was being served to make sure there'd be something I
could eat. Her response was, dripping with sarcasm, "Food!" and she
refused to tell me until I told her why I was asking.
Shortly after that it was common knowledge, and the president of the
company actually opened a meeting with people from outside the company
with "Did you know she's a vegetarian?" Ugh.
And yes, I *do* realize that the more I talk about my job the clearer it
becomes that I should be looking for another one =)
[1] I actually have no idea whether JWs are christian or not, but since
someone mentioned a JW objecting to a christmas tree...
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
>Okay, I have to ask. How is this different then Robin signing the
>card? I mean, I already know the answer to it: They want to celebrate
>trimming the tree with you, and you want to celebrate lighting the
>menorah with them, but Robin doesn't want to sign the card. That is
>all fine. But if it is hypocritical for Robin to sign the card, then
>it is hypocritical of Christians to want to celebrate Chanukah and Jews
>to want to celebrate Christmas.
I think it is, but I don't criticize others for hypocricy unless it
hurts somebody.
>I personally don't believe any of it is hypocritical; I'm just looking
>for the difference in your thinking. Where is the line drawn?
The difference is right back in your first sentence: Robin didn't want
to. It's not that it's "wrong" of her to sign it, it's that she should
not be FORCED to sign it. She chooses not to sign it. That's a
personal preference. It should be respected, and she should feel free
to stick to it.
-Naomi
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
Rabbis who are recognized as rabbis by most of Judaism do not marry
Christians. By definition. If they do, they are summarily dismissed
from being rabbis.
>--Susan
-Naomi
spacy...@my-deja.com
Umm, yeah. It is the s*x outside of marriage they are against.
Whether they use condoms, spermicide, withdrawal, IUD, morning-after
pill, oral contraceptives, depo, norplant, tubal ligation, etc, etc,
doesn't change the fact that they are having s*x. So, no, the use of
these things isn't what they preach against...it's the s*x they preach
against. Abstinence is the only way, so they say. Now, they are also
against these forms of BC for married women. As Tina_marie pointed
out, they allow for NFP (FAM, etc...anything that doesn't involve
hormones, barriers, tied tubes) for married women.
Kris Hildrum
>card? I mean, I already know the answer to it: They want to celebrate
>trimming the tree with you, and you want to celebrate lighting the
>menorah with them, but Robin doesn't want to sign the card. That is
>all fine. But if it is hypocritical for Robin to sign the card, then
>it is hypocritical of Christians to want to celebrate Chanukah and Jews
>to want to celebrate Christmas.
Involved in being hypocritical is pretending. If you want to
decorate a tree, and you just want to decorate a tree, and everyone
involved (or at least the host) are aware that you are decorating the tree
and it's without religious meaning to you, that's not hypocritical.
But signing a religious card sorta implies that you agree with the
card--which is a bit different.
I had a Catholic wedding. I'm not Catholic. I don't even believe
in God. I don't find this hypocritical, however, because at no point did
I deceive anyone about my religious stance, nor would I have done so. Had
the priest said "You must say you are Catholic to be wed here" I would
have said "Well, I guess that means we'll have to find somewhere else to
get married."
Kris
Kris Hildrum
>[1] I actually have no idea whether JWs are christian or not, but since
>someone mentioned a JW objecting to a christmas tree...
I believe they consider themselves Christians, though I'm don't
recall how Jesus fits into their beliefs. (I have vauge memories that
they don't have the same conception of the trinity as most other
Christians.)
However, they don't celebrate holidays (birthdays, Christmas,
Halloween, for example). The JW I know also didn't vote, (from the verse
that is something like "Give to God what is God's and give to Ceasar what
is Ceasar's) and had a big "NO BLOOD" on her driver's licence.
Kris
Karen Simmons
> 1] I actually have no idea whether JWs are christian or not, but since
> someone mentioned a JW objecting to a christmas tree...
Yes, JW is Christian in that they believe in Christ as the savior. I
learned a lot about JWs from a co-worker of mine at Pendleton. I really
enjoyed working with this guy because he was so willing to share his
beliefs w/out being judgemental or trying to convert me.
The short version is that JW's don't believe in celebrating secular
events - the only events that should be celebrated are ones that
glorify G_d. The reason they don't celebrate birthdays is that by
celebrating the day of somone's birth, you're glorifying them above G_d
and Jesus.
My understanding of why JW's object to a Christmas tree is twofold: One
is that there is no biblical reference that JC was actually born on
Christmas day, so celebrating on that day does not glorify G_d. Two is
that there is no biblical reference for Christmas trees, and by putting
up a tree, you're engaging in a secular celebration that goes back to
the first paragraph ... you're still not glorifying G_d.
It's actually quite logical in many ways. I dont' necessarily agree
with it, but I find it really interesting.
Karen
Karen Simmons
nri...@concentric.removethis.net (Naomi Gayle Rivkis) wrote:
>> then it is hypocritical of Christians to want to celebrate Chanukah
>> and Jews to want to celebrate Christmas.
> I think it is, but I don't criticize others for hypocricy unless it
> hurts somebody.
Ok, I missed this the first time around. I see a big difference in
celebrating something as in "believing in it" and sharing another's
celebration to learn something about the culture.
I think if I were to say "I'm going to start celebrating Passover from
now on because I think it's a cool holiday to celebrate, but I don't
really believe in it.", THAT would be hypocritcal. But to say I'm going
to share in my friends celebration of Passover this year as an invited
guest to learn more about her culture ... that's NOT hypocritical.
Huge, big, enormous difference, IMO.
Karen
Robin
> Robin was asked to sign a card that professed something that she does
> not believe in. It's not the signing of the card per se that's
> hypocritical - it's that Robin has expressed that the signing of the
> card makes her uncomfortable because do to so would imply that she
> believes and supports the message of the card ... and that's what would
> be hypocritical.
Bingo. I wouldn't be offended if someone sent a religious card to me
(although with this particular card I probably would have thought "boy,
Bob sure wants to bonk me over the head with his religion, doesn't he?")
but I sure as heck wouldn't *send* one. By signing this one, that's
what I would have been doing.
And to clarify some more, not in response to this post but to others in
the thread, I'm not offended (or bothered, or anything) that the
president of the company wants to send out ultra-religious cards. Hey,
if he wants to offend people, that's his business. My only objection is
the expectation that I'd sign it.
And in case anyone's keeping score at home, so far nothing has been said
about the cards' lack of my signature. Hooray!
> However, she's not unwilling to learn about other's religions and
> traditions and might ... if the opportunity was offered ... participate
> in their traditions with the understanding that she didn't necessarily
> BELIEVE in them, but that she was most interested in learning about them
> and experiencing how others celebrated their particular traditions. (Not
> to speak for Robin, but carrying this to a logical conclusion for the
> sake of my definition! *grin*)
>
Hmph. Why don't you just go and speak for me then, huh Karen? <grin>
Yep, I've been to plenty of Seders, been to church with friends, go to
church when we're visiting the ILs.
--
There's no need to e-mail me a copy of a follow-up; but if you do,
please identify it as such.
j_w...@newsguy.com
<kathry...@pharma.novartis.com> so moved that:
>This sort of reminds me of an argument Stan and I had when we left
>church one day
That sounds like something I would hear in my area and it would,
likely, be a very popular belief.
I don't have a problem with the RC per se, and only a slight one with
them locally. Mostly, my issue is with members (maybe better said as
"loudly self-proclaimed members") who maintain things not unlike that
and insist that is what the church maintains.
My complaint about the local RC diocese is that they do little to
counter this misinformation, let alone stop the spread of it.
However, to speak to the specific issue, I know people who firmly
believe that anyone who contracts HIV/AIDS did so via an "act of sin."
It's their way of saying "homosexual acts" as they don't use that
phrase for adultery (apparently, that is less of a sin to them.)
Disclaimer: please don't take this personally. I know there are
people who are RC here and I do not mean to direct this at them. I
have long acknowledged that this area is quite backwards in many ways,
this is just one aspect. There are many other negatives, some of
which might be even worse e.g. many of the public schools in my area,
where nepotism is the name of the game and "conflict of interest"
doesn't exist (such as a school board member or more than one voting
to grant a contract to a company in which they have a financial stake
or a relative is a high-level worker for/manager of the company.)
T&D
Karen Simmons <klsi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:91e34g$krt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Right. I said in my first post asking you the question that I didn't think
it was hypocritical either. Just as I don''t believe it would be
hypocritical of Robin to sign the card, because she could sign it to show
the receiver that she supports their religious belief. Not that she
*shares* their religious belief, but that she supports them having their own
beliefs.
Tracy
cleo...@my-deja.com
nri...@concentric.removethis.net (Naomi Gayle Rivkis) wrote:
> Rabbis who are recognized as rabbis by most of Judaism do not marry
> Christians. By definition. If they do, they are summarily dismissed
> from being rabbis.
I think you're being a bit over-generalist here. Rabbis of the Reform
Movement, which claims the largest number of Jews within it, are not
dismissed (summarily or not) from being rabbis from marrying Christians.
Cleo
Karen Simmons
>
> Just as I don''t believe it would be hypocritical of Robin to sign
> the card, because she could sign it to show the receiver that she
> supports their religious belief. Not that she *shares* their
> religious belief, but that she supports them having their own
> beliefs.
Mmmm. I see it differently. I see that by signing the card Robin would
be saying "I hold these beliefs and wish to share them with you this
holiday season." If the owner wants to send a personal religious card,
that's one thing. But to send a religious card and ask the entire staff
to sign it regardless of their individual beliefs means that they have
to sign something they don't believe in.
Karen
aMAZon
tina_...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> In article <91djoh$6k1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > You misunderstand. It is against Catholic beliefs to endorse any type
> > of BC that isn't abstinence. It is not against the beliefs to treat
> > the infected patients.
>
> That's not true. The Catholic church does endorse NFP.
Wouldn't you say that NFP is a method of periodic abstinence?
Mary S.
> be saying "I hold these beliefs and wish to share them with you this
> holiday season." If the owner wants to send a personal religious card,
> that's one thing. But to send a religious card and ask the entire staff
> to sign it regardless of their individual beliefs means that they have
> to sign something they don't believe in.
I agree with this. I am never offended when people send me Christmas
cards, or Hanukah cards, or any sort of correspondence that reflects
their personal beliefs. I have never felt like I need to send generic
"happy holidays" cards for fear of offending someone -- I send cards
that reflect my beliefs, and welcome cards from other people that offer
a glimpse of their spirits and personalities.
That's not quite true... I bought stamps yesterday; I had the choice
between the cute generic "reindeer" stamps and the Madonna stamps. I
chose the Madonna stamps because they attracted me, and because I
personally equate the Holy Mother with, well, the Holy Mother (Christian
and pre-Christian, I think they're the same)... but I wondered, standing
in the post office line, if I ought to have been buying the less
"religious" reindeer stamps just in case someone on my card list was
offended by Christian iconography. But I bought the ones that spoke to
me anyway.
However, asking someone else to sign onto my beliefs is quite another
matter. Companies representing more than one person really ought to go
with the generic happy holidays variety.
Robin: If I were trying to find a good way of skirting the issue, I
might reply something like... hmmm. Let's see. If asked, Robin, what's
the matter with signing this card? "It's little heavy-handed, don't you
think? I'm not sure what our diverse customer base might think of it."
No, that's too stiff. Maybe, "I wasn't sure how it would look to..."
No. Hmmm. Maybe heading them off with a return question is the best (I
forget who suggested that -- Wende? Karen?). Like, "Oh, I don't know --
what do you think of sending out company business cards to people who
might not share our beliefs?" Or, if they press, "Regardless of my own
beliefs, don't you think we shouldn't try to force the message upon our
clients? We'd hate to alienate people." Dang, I'm no good at this.
What would Miss Manners say?
Mary S.
--
Mary Sweathe
San Francisco, CA
Mary S.
guess it's better to say that we take our chances immediately
surrounding the beginning of my cycle), but it doesn't mean abstinence
per se. You can abstain, or you can use other methods, during the
unsafe times. At least, that's what my TCOFY lead me to believe...
maybe textbook NFP means strict abstinence in-between times.
Mary S., who almost never gets 3 continuous hours of sleep and is a
hopeless charter because of it
> > That's not true. The Catholic church does endorse NFP.
>
> Wouldn't you say that NFP is a method of periodic abstinence?
--
Robin
> Or, if they press, "Regardless of my own
> beliefs, don't you think we shouldn't try to force the message upon our
> clients? We'd hate to alienate people." Dang, I'm no good at this.
> What would Miss Manners say?
>
coin a new bumper sticker, "WWMMS"
KathyK
"Mary S." <msweath...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hmmm. We use NFP (I mean, as much as I can figure it out so far... I
> guess it's better to say that we take our chances immediately
> surrounding the beginning of my cycle), but it doesn't mean abstinence
> per se. You can abstain, or you can use other methods, during the
> unsafe times. At least, that's what my TCOFY lead me to believe...
> maybe textbook NFP means strict abstinence in-between times.
>
> Mary S., who almost never gets 3 continuous hours of sleep and is a
> hopeless charter because of it
>
> Mary Sweathe
> San Francisco, CA
>
If you use barriers during fertile times, then it is FAM (the method
described in TCOYF). NFP specifically excludes the use of barriers,
and promotes absitinence during fertile times. The manner in which
fertile/infertile times are determined remains the same between both
methods.
--
Kathy
TDC Snow White and Keeper of Sockpuppets
edd 8/3/01
tina_...@my-deja.com
zesz...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
>
> tina_...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <91djoh$6k1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > spacy...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > > You misunderstand. It is against Catholic beliefs to endorse any type
> > > of BC that isn't abstinence. It is not against the beliefs to treat
> > > the infected patients.
> >
> > That's not true. The Catholic church does endorse NFP.
>
> Wouldn't you say that NFP is a method of periodic abstinence?
>
Yes, I was just responding to the point that complete abstinence isn't
the only sanctioned way to avoid pregnancy which is how the original
statement made it seem (Tracy didn't initially say that all/most of the
patients weren't married). I.e., the RC church does recognize the dual
purpose of s*x of procreation and an expression of love. (Although, I
still think they emphasize the procreation part a bit more, but that's a
whole 'nother issue)
Tina
--
Email at this address is rarely read.
Please post replies, or send them to:
tina_siracusa -at- yahoo -dot- com
Lyn
First, I think one should send a card to the recipient wishing the
recipient a Happy "whatever" it is that *they* celebrate...Christmas to
the Christians, Hannukah to the Jews, etc. Otherwise, why send the
card? You are wishing them a joyous occasion - whatever it is that
THEY celebrate - not YOUR joyous occasion...
While I am not offended by Christmas or other cards, I am much more
enchanted by a card that honors *my* beliefs...because someone thought
enough to find an appropriate card.
Secondly, I am in favor of a generic card if it is going to a group of
people (as in the workplace). That way, you are wishing each person
a "Happy Holiday" and are not singling out an individual group and
ignoring the rest. I have discussed this in the work place and just
approached it in terms of "In light of our desire to acknowleging
diversity, I think a more generic card is appropriate, as we have a
wide base of customers of many different faiths." My suggestion was
received well.
I have refused to sign "Christmas" cards because, in the way they were
being used, I could see them as potentially offending someone. I have
refused to attend "Christmas" parties for the same reason. I will
attend a private Christmas party, and respect the faith of the hosts -
and will help them celebrate their faith. I just think in a diverse
work situation, a company should throw a party, or send a card, that
honors everyone.
-L.
In article <3A3B003B...@yahoo.com>,
"Mary S." <msweath...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Karen Simmons
>
> I would like to respond to a couple of things...
>
> First, I think one should send a card to the recipient wishing the
> recipient a Happy "whatever" it is that *they* celebrate...Christmas
> to the Christians, Hannukah to the Jews, etc. Otherwise, why send the
> card? You are wishing them a joyous occasion - whatever it is that
> THEY celebrate - not YOUR joyous occasion...
Hmmm. I think it depends on whether you're talking about a business
situation or a personal one. I will send Christmas cards to all my
friends, Christian and non Christian alike (although they aren't overtly
Christmas - this years had an art deco poinsettia on the front and
wished a "joyous holiday season" on the inside) because I want to share
my season with them. By the same token, my office manager gives us a
Hanukkah gift and card every year to share her season with us. We have
agreed that I give her sons Christmas gifts and they give us Hanukkah
gifts ... it's all part of learning and teaching the children about each
other's cultures.
OTOH, I can certainly see your point and I do try to give people things
that reflect their beliefs when it's appropriate. I do also try very
hard to choose things (like Christmas cards) that will convey my sense
of enjoyment of the season w/out trying to come across as though I'm
preaching or trying to convert them.
Just a different view, I guess.
Karen
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
<klsi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>In article <12d3c251...@news.cris.com>,
> nri...@concentric.removethis.net (Naomi Gayle Rivkis) wrote:
>
>>> then it is hypocritical of Christians to want to celebrate Chanukah
>>> and Jews to want to celebrate Christmas.
>
>> I think it is, but I don't criticize others for hypocricy unless it
>> hurts somebody.
>
>Ok, I missed this the first time around. I see a big difference in
>celebrating something as in "believing in it" and sharing another's
>celebration to learn something about the culture.
I agree.
>I think if I were to say "I'm going to start celebrating Passover from
>now on because I think it's a cool holiday to celebrate, but I don't
>really believe in it.", THAT would be hypocritcal. But to say I'm going
>to share in my friends celebration of Passover this year as an invited
>guest to learn more about her culture ... that's NOT hypocritical.
>Huge, big, enormous difference, IMO.
I think you're missing something else -- I do *not* consider it
hypocritical for a gentile to join me for Passover the same way I do
for Chanukah. They are two very different holidays. Chanukah is, very
specifically, about anti-assimilation... about being different and
aggressively defending our differences; about fighting and dying if
necessary to keep from being like the gentiles. That's not a holiday
for which they should be joining me. It doesn't make sense. They're
welcome to join me in celebrating my freedom, which is what Passover
is about, and in fact I usually have a gentile guest or two at my
Passover seders.
>Karen
-Naomi
Naomi Gayle Rivkis
Yes and no. Most Reform Jews (over 70%) will not recognize or accept a
rabbi who is married to a gentile. I suspect the number is even higher
if that gentile is a practicing Christian. Even some of the ones who
will accept a lay member of the congregation marrying a gentile won't
accept their rabbi doing it. So it's still correct that most Jews --
including most Reform Jews -- do not recognize as a rabbi someone who
is married to a Christian; they just do it individual by individual
rather than movement by movement. Since the Reform movement allows a
great many things which individual Reform Jews and congregations will
not tolerate, because of the movement's philosophy that religious
decisions must be made personally on an individual basis rather than
dictated by the movement, it is not really viable to base a claim of
acceptance by Reform Jews on what the CCAR will allow.
Most Reform congregations would fire a rabbi who married a gentile.
Even more would fire one who married a Christian.
>Cleo
-Naomi