Monica. Words from the Brown Idiot
Ben_Carnes
to hear the inflection of a persons voice. Second, you don't see the
person face. and Third, we are still strangers to each other.
I am Kitty's husband, the one you called a brown idiot. You know
whether I agreed with you or not, I personally supported your stand on
principle for Johnm Boys Graham and Arlo. My true opinion on the
entire case of Annie Mae, is the M-----F---ing feds were behind it. I
don't excuse the person who pulled the trigger, but until the feds are
on trial for Annie Mae's murder, every so called evidence is suspect to
me. We may never know the truth.
But on the other hand the one truth that I do know, which I know that
you don't know is that I fell in love with a woman who happens to be
white and does know who all her blood ancestry is, and is pretty damn
proud of who she is. She has never claimed to be Indian. I spoke with
a Mohawk woman once who told me that what business is it of anyone
else's if you fall in love. The color of a person skin shouldn't
matter. That came out of a discussion because another Mohawk woman
made a comment, "What is a man of his stature doing marrying a woman
like that". That comment came from a mother of another Sundancer, but
I am accustomed to racism from our own people, even when it sounds like
Aryan Nation rhetoric or bullshit. Am I weak because the Creator or
God allows me to love one of his children? Are you saying the Creator
is wrong for allowing me to love someone and their daughter who
respects our way of life? Come on Monica, I didn't wake up one morning
and decide I'm weak, I guess I'll go and find me a white woman.
You have no idea of what my life has been like, who I have been with,
nor have you lived the experiences I have lived. Yet, because I am
with a white woman, I am a brown idiot. I can trult say that I am
disappointed at what I consider a verbal affront through a public ng. I
personally expected better of you. I know that you sometimes feel that
you have to feel that you have to defend yourself from attacks, but I
saw this as totally unnecessary. My wife was not attacking you, she
only made a humourous remark to lighten the situation, and somehow I
became a brown idiot.
When I met my wife, Kitty, I had pretty much gave up on any meaningful
relationship with women. I felt that my life was to be one of
solitude, and working for the people. If it meant that I may end up
dying and never having children to carry on for me, then that is what I
would do to honor the path the Creator had set for me. Instead, we met
and began a relationship. And Monica it hasn't been easy for her,
because she is white. But as I said, she knows who she is. Look at it
this way, say that if all you knew was that you were Indian, but didn't
know what Nation you belonged to. Does that make you any less Native?
I am of the Choctaw Nation. I traveled to Mississippi to the reserve
there, and one of the Choctaw women asked me in our language if she was
white. I said no, she is sicilian and Irish. I got an approving "Oh!"
instead of a disapproving "Oh." To me that just illustrates the
stupidity of judging a person by the color of their skin. I believe
that we need to look what is in their hearts than the color of their
skin.
In the practice of our spirituality, I have heard through the Lakota
people that if you aren't of their blood, there are some ceremonies
that non-Lakotas won't be able to perform. So does that mean the
Creator is a racist? Is that also to imply that the white people are a
mistake of the Creator?
When my wife first met me, she did not know that I was a ceremonial
leader, mainly because I didn't tell her. I wanted to be known just
for who I am, not because of my "stature" or as an activist/warrior, or
whatever people perceived me as. I am just Ben, but I am stuck with
being a Chief. And I respect that honor so much that I have paid for it
through enduring the jealousies and enviousness of others. But the
people whom I have met and worked with and helped have respected me.
As a Chief, there is responsibilities that has fallen upon my wife, and
she is terrified of failing and disappointing me and other Elders and
leaders. But she is learning. And she is asking other Native women for
help so that she can fulfill her responsibilities. She doesn't relish
being the Chiefs wife. She would rather be Bens' wife and not have to
deal with the rest.
She is not an Annette Claypoole, but it seems your presumption placed
her in that category, and I feel that is quite unfair. No one has known
her to be a groupie of any kind and I have been the first Native man
she has had a relationship with.
I had really hoped that there would have been more intelligent
discussion on this ng than what I have seen. I can totally ignore the
immature and childish cooments I have seen here, and I sometimes wonder
why I waste any time. I really wanted to see a place where discussions
could be held. And opposiong viewpoints could be discussed to show each
other something we are over looking.
Frosty has been one of the few who can stay on point and elaborate on
any topic, without falling into bs. I have utmost respect for his
presence on this ng. Which is the reason, I have began a new topic
since it was not germane to his original topic.
I wonder if all the people on this group were to sit and appear before
each other, with Elders present, minus barry and dirt clod, etc., if
each of those people would behave in the same way they do on this
group. I actually doubt it. Anonymity behaind a keyboard gives some
people the courage to speak in a way they wouldn't to a person face. It
is a cowardly antic like writing on an elementary bathroom wall.
So maybe Monica you would like to give me a call so that we can talk
abnout what happened here? I would be more than happy to talk with you
over the phone. Just email me and make arrangments to talk with us. I
do believe we will come to a better understanding at least through
verbal communication. I've been in touch with one of Arlo's cousin. A
Lakota who calls me brother and my wife sister, about the information
you have shared about Arlo's situation.
It is a small world after all, and we should all be acreful about the
hurtful things we say to one another, regardless of the circumstances.
In Unity,
Ben Carnes
Monica
then we could talk face to face. I feel strongly about the damage that
white women have done in our communities. I am sorry you are one that
let them in. I am sorry that white women have infiltrated Leonard's
committee and chased off the people that actually wanted to work to get
him out. I quit attending the sundances at Leonard's way back in the
beginning when John Fire Lame Deer brought in his second wife, a white
hippie girl. Security caught her taking pictures from his tipi. Cameras
were taken from everyone else. I wouldn't be happy attending ceremonies
where the head woman was white. But that is your choice. I think it is
a weakness. It is a sell out of the people. I stopped Lisa's attack on
another Indian. She is a white woman that thinks she has the right to
criticize and attack us because she is sleeping with a brown idiot.
Those kind of women always over step their bounds. You and Joe want to
force them down our throats. I don't have to put up with them and I
won't. Silence about what is wrong in our communities always
perpetuates it. It isn't right because you call yourself a chief. In my
opinion that makes it even more wrong. I am one of the few that uses my
own name on the internet. I take responsibility for what I say and do.
I don't hide behind a monitor and a pseudonym. You can send your phone
number to this address. I am attending a workshop all day today. I can
get back to you tomorrow.
Monica
Rick
There is a Sadness in this...
cobra...@yahoo.com
Ben has a white wife. Ben says she is a good woman, but Monica,
on the other hand, in my opinion of course, thinks that Ben would
have been better off as a gay man.
Ben is upset b/c communicating through the internet doesn't allow
him to see other people's faces, and therefore Ben probably thinks
everybody here is a liar?
Well anyway, so what! Feel free to pass right on through this portion
of the thread to find out why Ben enjoys his pal Frosty so much!
...Is it b/c: anger sins against its own soul, but happy postings sound
like the wax in your ears is old?
Now Monica doesn't appear to care about Ben's concerns of not being
able to see people's faces b/c she, Monica uses her very own name
to post here on the internet. Monica probably realizes that nobody
knows who she is anyway, so using her own name is probably okay...
As for myself, I finally realized that nobody cares what I myself
thinks
(cobrachill), so I've decided to become a reporter so as to report on
what everybody else thinks.
Screw it, why should I be grieved that nobody cares about what I have
to
say, b/c obviously what they have to say has no famine about it.
So reporting live without a face is cobrachill---whose own words came
to
absolutely nothing, therefore now reporting the words of others.
.........................................................................................................
.........................................................................................................
opine
Smashed Eyes acted alone or was he sent to do what he did?
Ben_Carnes wrote:
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Monica
a while you do have a chilling clarity in all this madness. What do you
think about wannabe white women like Lisa who think they have a right
to criticize us and impose their view of what Indian life is like or
should be? What is Joe West about? What is happening in the Anna Mae
case?
Monica
> a Mohawk woman once who told me that what business is it of anyone
> else's if you fall in love. The color of a person skin shouldn't
> matter. That came out of a discussion because another Mohawk woman
> made a comment, "What is a man of his stature doing marrying a woman
> like that". That comment came from a mother of another Sundancer, but
> I am accustomed to racism from our own people, even when it sounds like
> Aryan Nation rhetoric or bullshit.
Alice Papineau came out here to visit in the late 80's or early 90's.
She told us that the Clan Mothers decided they had to do something
about the problem of intermarriage. She said they set a date and said
all white people had to leave the reservations on that day. If the
Indian spouse decided to stay with them they had to leave too. She said
it was real hard. Some Tribal members left with their mate. Some
marriages were broken up. It is a problem and we can deal with it or
ignore it. In the end, Kitty is your business and none of
mine.....unless she starts acting like Lisa.
blut...@gmail.com
Monica, it's a good thing you are finally showing your true colours
Racists are purging themselves all over the place these day's I am
reminded your a lier. And blinded by hate that is sick and likes to
revel in sickness. We were at a Healing of the Future conference where
we met plenty of Elders from around the Country. Our goals are to end
blinding fear and ignorance that feeds the cycles of dysfunction. You
slander me and my family and every elder that taught us and continue to
teach to end your kind of blind hatred. It's am infection on humanity
and keeps people thinking stinking! You may be comfortable in your
wallowing, I pray someone someday pulls your reaching hands out of the
ugly. You need some prayers that is what my family say's so I pass that
on to you.
lisa
lisa
Monica
give Misty a call and tell her to get in touch with you.
blut...@gmail.com
she would never talk bad on my family. As specially under the bad
jacketing you are hell bent on. You talk wacky and expect people to
turn their back on those they know and love. Soon enough I will be
making my way back home and face to face do damage control and have big
hugs long over due. You have called so many people bad mouthing me and
my family it is disgusting. It was my husbands advise that I pray for
you dear. Oh, by the way, it was my husband who rescued my daughter off
the streets strung out on heroin. We did not abandon our daughter
because she was a stupid 12 and 1/2 year old. It was my husband that
said if we find our daughter lets move here to Molokai. It was Janet
that sent us here. It was Molokai that helped my daughter find her
"Pono" It was Misty bringing my daughter in to the smokehouse that gave
her spirit the will and strength to recover. Misty has family here but
you would know that now wouldn't you. My daughter is healthy and whole
married with two children designing organic clothing. Shes moving back
to Seattle soon so she will be getting a hold of Misty personally.
BUT FOR OUR RELATIONS! MY DAUGHTER WOULD NOT HAVE KNOWN SHE COULD OVER
COME. YOU ARE THE KIND THAT WOULD HAVE SAID LET THE GIRL GO! SHE'S A
FILTHY HEROIN JUNKY. IT IS THAT KIND OF ATTITUDE THAT HAS KILLED
GENERATIONS OF OUR KIDS FROM THE REZ AND BEYOND. THRIVING WILL HAPPEN
WHEN HEALING IS ALLOWED. GET OVER YOUR SELF AND YOUR HATE SPEW.
Isnt there a law against false statements like you are making here at
Alt Native and else where Monica? get a grip woman. You really insult
some very good people posting here at Alt Native and cannot even see
it...
lisa
cobra...@yahoo.com
Monica wrote:
> Cobra, usually you are a little too Christian for me, but every once in
> a while you do have a chilling clarity in all this madness. What do you
> think about wannabe white women like Lisa who think they have a right
> to criticize us and impose their view of what Indian life is like or
> should be? What is Joe West about? What is happening in the Anna Mae
> case?
Monica, you asked me my opinion bout people that criticize. The
question
inspired the following writing:
The sun rises in the morning, not a cloud in the sky, I wonder what
right
I have to enjoy this day? As I search my heart I see that it is clean,
therefore I feel I have the right to enjoy this beautiful day.
Whose "cause" can build a wall; who had the strength to build that
wall?
Anybody can criticize, and people that do usually reign for a couple of
years and then die out because they are living in their fatness.
..As far as Joe West---I currently know nothing about it. I could spend
some time there to have a vision bout it if you wish, let me know?
The Anna Mae case: I will offer my spirit's answer: A few things be
happening, depends of course upon who loves who, who hates who,
etc... Some people are feasting upon this case and it ain't because
they have good morals.
I have a hard time here b/c I feel that the F.B.I. should also be
brought
up on charges for Anna Mae's death as well. Yet they dwell in their
high
places (hang on, I just had a vision of another earth quake: I'm
getting
earth mourn's in my vision).
I also realize that we are living in today's times, not ancient times,
and
times are always changing. We no longer live only among our own
people, we live among many strangers with many different skin colors,
and many strangers sit upon many different thrones, and the only way
to cut these strangers outta our lives is to have our own strength that
we can rely upon to survive this life. We will never be able to get rid
of all our enemies, yet we will only endure them if we have the
strength
to survive. The strength includes our perfect hatred of them, yet it
should also include us realizing that each of us have to support our
own
household and raise our own children. Remember, to hate people takes
a lot of energy, so perhaps it's best to choose maybe just 50 or so
people
to hate, and spend more time just making fun of the rest of them?
Back to the Anna Mae case. My Spirit once told me something about the
F.B.I., my Spirit says that the F.B.I. are like a bunch of 5 month
old's that
will reign for 3 years or so.
Well, that's all I have time to say for now. Bye!
.............................................................................................................
.............................................................................................................
opine
have to agree with it as a timeline.
The guilty will be SQUIRMING in the meantime.
cobra...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Back to the Anna Mae case. My Spirit once told me something about the
> F.B.I., my Spirit says that the F.B.I. are like a bunch of 5 month
> old's that
> will reign for 3 years or so.
opine
Sometime 2009 would be when for whom the bell tolls.
Then we can can all relax a short bit and go fishing.
Monica
be justice if the FBI isn't held accountable.
Monica
rights to attack real Indians or impose your fantasies on us. You can
support us, but you need to realize that does not mean you are Indian.
oldwifetale
opine wrote:
> That is sounding pretty accurate and would
> have to agree with it as a timeline.
> The guilty will be SQUIRMING in the meantime.
That may be so, but i can't believe that anyone is giving a 'white guy'
who masturbates half the time he is posting to any woman or man on
alt.native *credibility* while at the same time being 'offended' by
Kitty's remark which was very mild in comparison to the things
Cobrachill has said here. He is an ass, and has never been anything but
sexually crude and disrespectful toward women, even if he is referring
to someone's else's WIFE.
i am amazed.
as usual.
Frosty
Ben_Carnes wrote:
> Frosty has been one of the few who can stay on point and elaborate on
> any topic, without falling into bs. I have utmost respect for his
> presence on this ng. Which is the reason, I have began a new topic
> since it was not germane to his original topic.
Wow that is interesting. I am not sure how years I have been posting,
cross posting and writing my opinions. At one time I also did a weekly
"Did you know?" It was information I got from a book that showed the
Indian Act from the begining and the changes made to it. I gave
someone the book and they never returned it. I have tried to find the
book with no luck. I got the book someplace in traveling around.
It was paper back book and it was interesting.
Nia:wen kowa
The Smiling Crow
I find that most of the time I have posted here..many so called Wannabes and
Those Relatives of Ours who live in The United States of America ...do not
really care about "The Indian Act"...up here in this stolen land calling
itself Canada.
There are a few 'folks' around this NG who can stick to topic...but I find
it hard to do..with so many individual *opinions* floating around any given
topic...someone will always slide off the topic because of "personality
issues".
Personality Issues..are here...because *we use*.the "English Language" for
communication...nd dats where we get into conflicts with different
personalities...but *we* are too proud to ever admit to something as simple
as saying.."Hey,I wrong..I apologize"
Wayne Turtleback George
==================
"Frosty" <fro...@ipermitmail.com> wrote in message
news:1155914465....@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Kitty
That is a question alot of people have asked. there are some strange
circumstances that didn't add up . And there are some people who need
to be found and talked to.
I spoke with Standing Deer not long before the murder happened and he
told me some pretty scary stuff which i wont go into here. However
there are those suspicions.
the most accurate report on the murder as the article that Ben posted
way back on this ng. Alot of others are incorrect.
K
opine
Wasn't offended by Kitty's remark myself.
Next thing you know, you will get a lecture about not telling Indians
what to do.
Never a dull moment lately.
It's the strangest dance of words have ever seen.
opine
If he isn't comfortable answering,
maybe he could post his article/report again as a reply.
What do you believe?
Was Smashed Eyes sent or did he act alone?
oldwifetale
opine wrote:
> Found the posting of the timeline even more incredible and made a comment.
>
> Wasn't offended by Kitty's remark myself.
> Next thing you know, you will get a lecture about not telling Indians
> what to do.
>
> Never a dull moment lately.
> It's the strangest dance of words have ever seen.
Me too, actually. :)
Monica
Denver. I find Lisa extremelyh offensive. I found kitty's statement
offensive. But keep kissing white butts Joe. I'm sure it will buy your
way into heaven.
oldwifetale
Monica wrote:
> I guess it's different living on a small rez than a big city like
> Denver. I find Lisa extremelyh offensive. I found kitty's statement
> offensive. But keep kissing white butts Joe. I'm sure it will buy your
> way into heaven.
I just want to know, Monica... since i have held great respect for your
opinions in the past... when did i stop being just another human and
start being a "white butt"? Because it seems that so long as a white
woman agrees with you, it is okay, but if a white woman disagrees, she
loses her humanity in your eyes. This makes me feel disappointed...
because i do not share the same sentiment toward you. I'm not
commenting on intermarriage... because maybe that is more a 'cultural'
problem than a 'racist' one, and besides, it is none of my business.
But in the battle against 'racism'... i think it is just as appropriate
to argue for the side that is against racism in ALL its forms as it is
to fight against racism toward people of color. To have to defend
'love' is one thing, but to have to defend the color of your skin is
another. Even if your skin is white. I have to confess... i feel
'dehumanized' when you speak of me as a "white butt" rather than a
woman - just another human being - who has only exchanged friendly
words with you. If it is not so... then it seems i am expected to kiss
*your* but just because you are a native woman... which also seems like
a 'racist' thing to do, imo, because when it comes right down to it, i
don't give a shit what color your skinsuit is, i only care where your
heart is at. That is all i care when it comes to *any* person i am
willing to call a friend. Disagree with me by all means! I would take
no offense. But to 'invalidate' me because i am 'white'... i do not
understand. And please believe me, i am writing this with utmost
respect, regardless of my white butt.
Donna
Monica
communities with white women who marry or live with Indian men and
think that gives them equal or superior rights as Indians. Lisa is one
of those women. She has claimed to be an enrolled Indian and she is
not. Do you remember she told me that if I had contacted her off list
she would have told me where she is enrolled. When I confronted her
this time she said she is not enrolled. It matters. Look what damage
Ward Churchill has done speaking as an Indian when he is not. We have a
problem here in the PNW with a major leader who has a white girlfriend
about 20 years younger than he. She has tried to take over programms
and demands special attention. No one is giving it to her and sadly he
is becoming a laughing stock. There are Indian men who think the
ultimate success symbol is a white woman. There is a teaching here
that a man only kknows as much as the woman behind him. Power and
knowledge travel through women. Ceremonies powered by a white woman
will be impotent. I have confronted Lisa about her lies. She is a white
woman trying to speak as an Indian. That is wrong. If someone had
confronted Churchill 20 or so years ago we wouldn't have to be dealing
with all the damage he has done. I have angered you and Ben. I am
sorry. But it is wrong to allow Lisa to be speaking as Indian when she
is not. One of our problems in our communities is people liek Joe. He
is willing to allow Lisa her lies simply because she attacks Wayne and
me. He is a sellout. I don't care who agrees with me or disagrees with
me. I think the fbi ordered the execution of Anna Mae. I think an
AIM/FBI double agent carried out that execution. I think AIM stupidly
allowed themselves to be entrapped in this. I don't have any mroe proof
than the feds do. I don't think there will be anymore indictments.
Arlo and John will be the scapegoats in this. I hear Arlo is being
promised early release for cooperation and he is cooperating. That
breaks my heart. But there is nothing I can do about it. If Joe and
others knew who the killers are for 30 years and they really cared
about justice for Anna Mae then why didn't they come forward before
this? Answer me this, what would you think about this case if it was
happening in old Russia? There are days that I want to just walk away.
There is mostly wannabes, white people and cops of various kinds
posting on this list. There are very few Indians here these days. Arlo
was abandoned by all his friends. I don't believe that there can be
justice for Indians in a white man's court. I believe that Arlo and
John have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Tell
me what is wrong with that? I believe that the fbi is responsible for
Anna Mae's death and should be held acccountable. What is wrong with
that?
As for Cobra, I don't read his posts unless he is on a thread I'm on.
Sometimes he makes me laugh. I haven't seen his vulgar stuff you talked
about. It was wrong of me but I was trying to sic him on Lisa and Joe.
That was a dud. I don't read RC, Lisa, and the ones I think are Eli's
fractured personalities. I was told that Cobra is Eli, which is why I
stopped reading his posts a long time ago.
blut...@gmail.com
YOUR DAMN RIGHT IT MATTERS. Your a lier and your paranoid reputation
for sick provocation speaks for it's self loud and clear. DAmn, go find
yourself a man and stop dreaming up ways to harm good people.
opine
You are not alone in this mistake either.
It has happened to a lot of people especially where AIM is concerned.
Blind ignorance, hatred, and racism is exactly what has brought so much
genocide upon native people. Doing the same in reverse is just as wrong.
None of us besides Michael Jackson can change the color of our skin.
The only thing we can change is how we treat ourselves and each other.
You just have to learn to recognize them as the enemy they are.
They are those who would bring pan-indianism as an answer.
They are those who would say hatred, ignorance, and racism guised as
something sweet and heroic the ignorant unsuspecting might swallow.
They would say you cannot work side by side as an equal human being.
They cannot stand it if you disagree with them.
You either bow to them or you are their enemy.
They learned it well from their handlers.
This is why AIM lost credibility with so many nations.
What they spoke was not the same as their actions.
They didn't hesitate to murder those whose words matched their deeds.
Anna Mae was one of many this happened to.
It is why they attack like mad dogs when confronted with the truth.
This is what they are trained to do and they are consistent in it.
It is why so many have awakened and realized they don't need AIM.
They have learned the truth and turned their backs on AIM.
They can stand on their own as people of their nation and do
what needs to be done and do it with honor and respect.
So Donna, while some of us may disagree with your opinions at times,
we don't have to hate and despise you just because you're white.
We don't have to treat you or speak to you in a degrading manner.
We do reserve the right to tease you about your white butt though.
It wouldn't be done to be dehumanizing though.
If people don't learn to laugh with each other,
they will never get along or learn anything.
oldwifetale wrote:
> Monica wrote:
>> I guess it's different living on a small rez than a big city like
>> Denver. I find Lisa extremelyh offensive. I found kitty's statement
>> offensive. But keep kissing white butts Joe. I'm sure it will buy your
>> way into heaven.
>
> I just want to know, Monica... since i have held great respect for your
> opinions in the past... when did i stop being just another human and
> start being a "white butt"?
Monica
Ben_Carnes
opine wrote:
> The question was asked of Ben.
> If he isn't comfortable answering,
> maybe he could post his article/report again as a reply.
>
> What do you believe?
> Was Smashed Eyes sent or did he act alone?
Just got off the road. Been gone for a few days, and it looks like I
have a lot to catch up on here. But as to whether I think the FBI
fulfilled their threat to Standing Deer that if he betrayed them, he
would pay with his life. Conjecture or circumstantial evidence comes
in to play here. If people would like I can repost the link to the
news story that was done on what could have happen.
There are some people that needs to be spoken with. I did speak with
Pius within a week after he murdered SD at the County Jail. He reminds
me of a psychopathic liar. If one lie doesn't work, then just switch to
another lie. Never mind that it conflicts with everything he had just
said.
Until I know for sure, I won't say if Price or Woods were guiding
Pius. But his travels prior to reaching Houston seems odd, like a
person on a mission. He needed someone to give him an "in", and Anna
got used.
The night before he was murdered, I may have been the last one person
to speak with Standing Deer. He told me Leonard Crow Dogs nephew was
there. Knowing how so many people drops Leonards name. I ask Deer to
ask him where Onwa lives. He asked Pius, who said that he lived on Pine
Ridge. I responded by saying that I thought he lived on Rosebud. Pius
said that he goes back and forth.
When I saw him in the County Jail, A friend who went with me, talk to
Pius at length about what had happened. He stauch with his immocent
story and how he found him dead early the next morning after he left
the apt. around 7PM. So I asked him where Onwa lived. He repeated
everything the same as when I call that night. He looked at me kinda
funny. So I told him that if he left Standing deers at 7 PM, what the
fuck was he doing there at 10:20 PM and at 12:10 AM? He kept looking at
me and I told him that I was the one who called Standing Deer and asked
him the same questions. Then he changed his story. How Standing Deer
sent him to go and get a case of beer, fifths of vodka, whiskey, and
some wine. The autopsy reported there was no alcohol in SD's blood.
Pius is not a very good liar.
Ben
opine
Sometimes when the anger and discomfort levels rise here.
There is one question that has to be asked.
What is being fought about?
Is it cultural theft?
Is it genocide and racism and murder?
Is it assimilation?
Is it theft of our natural resources?
These things have to be fought against no matter how uncomfortable.
Sometimes it gets down and dirty and a bit rough and ugly.
There are some guidelines though.
A person doesn't have to resort to racism to fight racism is just one.
Hate and blind ignorance are not needed.
Threatening and physical violence are not needed except in reaction.
In other words, it is okay to defend yourself against bullies.
It is okay to stop a wrongdoer engaged in wrongdoing.
Truth is required.
Respect towards the wrongdoers is usually an abused waste.
Outsiders are generally not appreciated or wanted in a family fight.
It is a rotten thing to do to pretend to be using these guidelines
but actually be fighting for the bad things already mentioned.
In this sea of words called the internet,
it can be hard to figure out who the real wrongdoers are.
There are some clues that eventually give them away.
You've just had the displeasure of such an experience.
this comment was exceptional and many agree with you:
> i think it is just as appropriate
> to argue for the side that is against racism in ALL its forms as it is
> to fight against racism toward people of color.
If that's what is called kissing your white butt by some,
then smooch! lol!
opine
If John Boy talks, Standing Deer's murdering conspirators have a lot
to be nervous about because that will probably come out too.
Monica
> then smooch! lol!
Arlo and John have the right to be considered innocent until proven
guilty. Why does that threaten you so? Remember when Floyd Westerman
did that song about BIA Indians? He needs to do a new one about FBI
Indians. Why don't you want the FBI held accountable for their
significant part in the murder of Anna Mae?
oldwifetale
I agree with many of your words, Opine. But about Monica i do not
agree. To me Monica is a human, her words are her 'voice', and i do not
lump her into a 'collective', as to say "those AIM People". I don't
know *anything* about AIM except that it was infiltrated. I'm an
outsider. Her position in AIM is not something i can 'judge' one way or
another. Personally, i've always had a 'feeling' that something about
the John Boy part doesn't seem right, but i couldn't say what, and i
sure am not going to make any argument based on only a 'feeling'. And
about Anna Mae... as i told Monica several years ago... the more i try
to understand it, the more confusing it gets. And that is why i don't
say anything about ANY of it. Wasn't there, don't know. But i do know
that Monica is not 'that'. She is a 'who', at least to me. I know that
she loves her family, her people. That means she's not walking around
with an empty skinsuit and no heart. So long as that's the case - i
don't care *who* it is - then i'm not going to say that person is
'unworthy' of my respect! What am *i*, the queen of england? I do not
think my respect is misdirected even if i disagree with her about
something, or if i am wrong, or if she is wrong, or if whoever is wrong
- unless i also lose her respect just because i am white. I don't think
that will happen. So i would rather just think about Monica's post for
a bit, and then talk with her about this directly, friend to friend.
donna
opine
Why do you keep protecting the FBI?
Why resort to blatant racism?
Why resort to such lying?
Arlo told too many people what he did over the years.
John Boy talks and it can lead to a solid case against the FBI involved.
A good clean fair trial for John Boy would be great!
It would remove a lot of doubts in a lot of minds.
That opinion alone has driven you to irrational posting.
It will bring the whole dirty mess out into the open.
Your precious FBI is going to be publicly humiliated.
That really frightens you. It has you completely flustered.
Are you going to presume the FBI involved innocent until proven guilty?
Besides, wanting John Boy to talk then proves beyond all reasonable
doubt who is really full of garbage.
Why don't you really want the FBI involved held accountable?
Why do you work against the very thing that can make that happen?
We've known for a very long time that John Boy pulled the trigger.
Most of us want real justice, not courtroom garbage.
Anna Mae's family is who wanted to proceed with this legally.
You have no idea how many were kept from handing out justice
and getting this over with clean and quick.
You also have no idea what it took to even get indictments.
Your precious FBI sure does not want this going to trial.
It especially does not want it to go to trial in Canada.
You are not GW Bush where you can keep telling a big lie and if it
gets told enough people will believe it is true.
btw, Joe said you're just crazy. Apparently that is an opinion held
by more than just a few people. Maybe it is why you cannot read.
Maybe it is why you are so irrational and have to have someone else
post for you sometimes.
Sorry, don't know anyone here that wants to kiss your butt.
It does not matter how much they SQUIRM and prod you,
it will be over soon enough and soon they won't be able to stop it.
opine
oldwifetale wrote:
> I agree with many of your words, Opine. But about Monica i do not
> agree. To me Monica is a human, her words are her 'voice', and i do not
> lump her into a 'collective', as to say "those AIM People". I don't
> know *anything* about AIM except that it was infiltrated. I'm an
> outsider. Her position in AIM is not something i can 'judge' one way or
> another. Personally, i've always had a 'feeling' that something about
> the John Boy part doesn't seem right, but i couldn't say what, and i
> sure am not going to make any argument based on only a 'feeling'. And
> about Anna Mae... as i told Monica several years ago... the more i try
> to understand it, the more confusing it gets. And that is why i don't
> say anything about ANY of it. Wasn't there, don't know. But i do know
> that Monica is not 'that'. She is a 'who', at least to me. I know that
> she loves her family, her people. That means she's not walking around
> with an empty skinsuit and no heart. So long as that's the case - i
> don't care *who* it is - then i'm not going to say that person is
> 'unworthy' of my respect! What am *i*, the queen of england? I do not
> think my respect is misdirected even if i disagree with her about
> something, or if i am wrong, or if she is wrong, or if whoever is wrong
> - unless i also lose her respect just because i am white. I don't think
> that will happen. So i would rather just think about Monica's post for
> a bit, and then talk with her about this directly, friend to friend.
>
> donna
>
>
opine
We don't want her to get confused and think that we are friends.
We don't want anyone else getting confused and thinking it either.
That is something that probably cannot ever be possible.
It just is not in me to talk to a friend the way she has talked to you.
oldwifetale wrote:
> So i would rather just think about Monica's post for
> a bit, and then talk with her about this directly, friend to friend.
>
> donna
Monica
happened why didn't you come forward? Why don't you want the fbi held
accountable? All you do is talk about John. Did Arlo confess to you?
Why didn't you come forward and testify that he confessed to you? I
want the FBI held accountable for their significant role in Anna Mae's
murder. Let's hear you say what you want them held accountable for?
What do you think is their role in the murder of Anna Mae Aquash?
Monica
for years a racist? I suppose you defended him like you're defending
Lisa. Weak link Joe.
opine
This is what was told to several people Arlo confessed to.
The taped confession, the mess that it was, was not hearsay.
The prosecuter determines who is called to testify.
Why didn't you ever investigate?
No wonder Joe thinks you're crazy.
Monica wrote:
> Why didn't you come forward and testify that he confessed to you?
Monica
writers, intelligent and active within their Tribal community. You and
I don't have anything in common. I live on a small remote rez in the
pacific northwest. You live in a big city far from your homelands. I am
a part of my Traditional Faith. It looks like you are a Sioux wannabe
with your inipi ceremonies. Be assured I would never call you a friend.
opine
Sitting here looking at the thread title, it is so appropriate.
All it needs is a correction in punctuation.
Monica: Words from the Brown Idiot
Now that you have the title, you can write a book.
Monica wrote:
> btw. Did you call the people who have been exposing Churchill's lies
> for years a racist? I suppose you defended him like you're defending
> Lisa. Weak link Joe.
Monica
was involved? Arlo was drunk when he was taped. He doesn't remember it.
It should have been suppressed because he was incapacitated. Everyone
is repeating the story that Arlo has been confessing but I have yet to
find anyone who heard the story first hand. Shaina too said that Arlo
had been confessing but she had never heard him confess. Could this be
another fbi planted story? Sounds like it to me. You told me a couple
years ago that everytime Anna Mae's name was menntioned Arlo would
throw up. Why didn't you testify to that? Did you actually see that
yourself or is that another story that you heard? Sounds like another
fbi planted story to me. If you knew anything about the murder of Anna
Mae you should have come forward with it. Especially if you have known
for 30 years. That is if you actually want justice for Anna Mae.
Monica
Wayne. I can't ignore you either. I keep hoping for you Joe.
opine
Or are you suddenly confusing yourself with Donna.
What personality are you posting with, Donna or Monica?
Do you have a disability reading?
How are you going to write your book:
Monica: Words from the Brown Idiot
If you keep doing things like this?
If you are going to write a book, even plagerizing like Churchill,
at least have the decency to get your facts straight.
Sorry, forgot that you have issues with the truth.
Sockpuppets are known to have certain dysfunctions from time to time.
opine
You don't know who came forward and when they came forward.
You don't know who they spoke to or if they were at the grand jury.
The only planting is the effort you're making to say ignore the truth.
SQUIRMING
opine
you can write your book even if the title is true
and the content is fiction.
Monica
to see that. No Joe, unlike you I read well and a lot. Truth is a big
part of what I do. How do you know that John was involved in Anna Mae's
death? Were you a witness. You admitted that you did not hear "Arlo's
confession" first hand. Let's have truth Joe. What do you know that
you can actually prove? Did you call the people that exposed
Churchill a racist? Comeon Joe stand by your word.
Monica
was hearsay, remember? Looks like you're the one doing the squirming.
Try simple truth. It's good for the soul Joe.
opine
You don't even know who you're talking to.
Keep it up and your fiction will fill enough pages to be a book.
No one is going to buy it even with the alluring title.
Monica
this has been fun, but I've got to go. I can't wait to hear Donna's
response to your accusation of her being my sock puppet. I wish I knew
as much about astrology as she does. I just love watching the stars.
That is something you might want to try Joe. It is a simple thing
that can bring a lot of joy into your life. You need it pal.
opine
No. You just keep ignoring what is right there,
trolling away into some strange land.
That must have really tipped your apple cart.
Arlo is convicted and in jail. That is already done.
Soon John Boy will be convicted and in jail.
Hopefully, the rest will also be convicted and in jail.
You are supposed to be so up and up on John Boy.
Hearsay is the exact argument being made about John Boy telling Trudell.
The rest is up to a judge.
Monica wrote:
> Why didn't you come forward and testify that he confessed to you?
> opine wrote:
> That is called hearsay.
> This is what was told to several people Arlo confessed to.
> The taped confession, the mess that it was, was not hearsay.
> The prosecuter determines who is called to testify.
>
> Why didn't you ever investigate?
>
> No wonder Joe thinks you're crazy.
opine
What is funny is though you will deny it, that sinking feeling
in your stomach is the direct result of your failure.
The best part is you have no idea how much laughter you have
generated.
opine
See you at the hearing sir.
Monica wrote:
> You need it pal.
> opine wrote:
>> admitted?
>>
>> You don't even know who you're talking to.
>> Keep it up and your fiction will fill enough pages to be a book.
>> No one is going to buy it even with the alluring title.
Duane
Kris (o:
------------
oldwifetale
opine wrote:
> Thank you for making it clear that Monica is your friend.
>
> We don't want her to get confused and think that we are friends.
> We don't want anyone else getting confused and thinking it either.
> That is something that probably cannot ever be possible.
> It just is not in me to talk to a friend the way she has talked to you
Opine... i have been speaking off and on with Monica here for several
years. She lives in the same area as i do. I've seen a lot of the
things she talks about. So i am just trying to 'hear' what she is
saying, in fairness, not trying to find which side to 'attack'. My
response was not *against* you. Things just are not that cut and dried
in my 'world' (way of thinking). Words do say a lot and some people
here are 'familiar' to me, i am comfortable with them. But Opine...
although you seem to have many positive traits, and your words about
racism match my own feelings... i have to be honest - i do not even
know who you are really. I actually know more about RC than i do you.
In a one-to-one conversation with a 'friend'... that feels like a
disadvantage on my part. And i feel it would to you too if the
situation was reversed.
Donna
Ben_Carnes
opine wrote:
> He was sent.
>
> If John Boy talks, Standing Deer's murdering conspirators have a lot
> to be nervous about because that will probably come out too.
>
One of the things I have leanred is that without solid proof, it is a
smart thing for me to assume that someone did something and act ipon it
or pass it around as fact. That is me and from my experience. The Ann
a Mae murder was based upon the FBI's whispering campaign, via Doug
Durham, and the paranoia of the time elevated the peoples suspicions
about everyone and each other.
Now I could be wrong from reading your above post, but you said if John
Boy talks, I presume that you believe he has some complicity in
Aquash's murder. So I am wondering how it is that you link the two
together. It is an innuendo that John Graham had something to do with
the Deers murder or has knowledge of it. As far as I can tell, John
Graham has been in Canada before and after the muder.
I am just trying to understand how you see it is connected. If we are
just solely speaking of the FBI being a central figure in all of these
cases, that much is obvious. But to insert John as a conspirator begs
the question, where is the proof.
After the Deers murder. I made a few calls to some people and spoke to
some other people to tie in some pieces. I thought I was doing it
quietly. But later I received an anonymous caal on my voice mail that I
needed to leave the matter alone. So some people may be nervous, but
why, who realy knows.
Ben
Flint_...@hotmail.com
or dat he a "SIOUX?" wannabe...?
seemz like da rest o yer Konfuzion monica...
like...why you never met nor heard o any o da hundredz o people da War
Chief Looking Cloud shared hiz truthz wit...maybe you OUT da loop?
or da belief somehow or a nudder...dat someone offered da War Chief an
early out...OR dat he'd Even consider it an offer...
tiyospaye n lakotanagi knowz bout da War Chief...datz who bring him
home when dey bring him home...fergitaboutit...
makin like youz waz da War Chiefs friend jezt so'z you could ATTEMPT to
associate hiz position among lakotaoyate with da CHICKENSHIT Jon Boi
Patton graham kracker shoz how you know NON bout Lakowicohan...
we all ready laid da canli fer da krackerz skin to be brought in to da
circle...da skull dragerz sanctioned it...da kakas too...n da Uncis
agreed...he Will Pay fer wha he did to da War Chief n da rest o us...
hetchetualoh...
Monica
write to Arlo. I wouldn't have done it on my own. The truth right
Richard?
opine
opine
Those who ordered Anna Mae's death do.
Is that clear and precise and concise enough to the point?
oldwifetale
Monica wrote:
> When did I call you a white butt? There is a problem in Indian
> communities with white women who marry or live with Indian men and
> think that gives them equal or superior rights as Indians. Lisa is one
> of those women. She has claimed to be an enrolled Indian and she is
> not. Do you remember she told me that if I had contacted her off list
> she would have told me where she is enrolled. When I confronted her
> this time she said she is not enrolled. It matters. Look what damage
> Ward Churchill has done speaking as an Indian when he is not. We have a
> problem here in the PNW with a major leader who has a white girlfriend
> about 20 years younger than he. She has tried to take over programms
> and demands special attention. No one is giving it to her and sadly he
> is becoming a laughing stock. There are Indian men who think the
> ultimate success symbol is a white woman. There is a teaching here
> that a man only kknows as much as the woman behind him. Power and
> knowledge travel through women. Ceremonies powered by a white woman
> will be impotent. I have confronted Lisa about her lies. She is a white
> woman trying to speak as an Indian. That is wrong. If someone had
> confronted Churchill 20 or so years ago we wouldn't have to be dealing
> with all the damage he has done. I have angered you and Ben. I am
> sorry. But it is wrong to allow Lisa to be speaking as Indian when she
> is not. One of our problems in our communities is people liek Joe. He
> is willing to allow Lisa her lies simply because she attacks Wayne and
> me. He is a sellout. I don't care who agrees with me or disagrees with
> me. I think the fbi ordered the execution of Anna Mae. I think an
> AIM/FBI double agent carried out that execution. I think AIM stupidly
> allowed themselves to be entrapped in this. I don't have any mroe proof
> than the feds do. I don't think there will be anymore indictments.
> Arlo and John will be the scapegoats in this. I hear Arlo is being
> promised early release for cooperation and he is cooperating. That
> breaks my heart. But there is nothing I can do about it. If Joe and
> others knew who the killers are for 30 years and they really cared
> about justice for Anna Mae then why didn't they come forward before
> this? Answer me this, what would you think about this case if it was
> happening in old Russia? There are days that I want to just walk away.
> There is mostly wannabes, white people and cops of various kinds
> posting on this list. There are very few Indians here these days. Arlo
> was abandoned by all his friends. I don't believe that there can be
> justice for Indians in a white man's court. I believe that Arlo and
> John have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Tell
> me what is wrong with that? I believe that the fbi is responsible for
> Anna Mae's death and should be held acccountable. What is wrong with
> that?
>
> As for Cobra, I don't read his posts unless he is on a thread I'm on.
> Sometimes he makes me laugh. I haven't seen his vulgar stuff you talked
> about. It was wrong of me but I was trying to sic him on Lisa and Joe.
> That was a dud. I don't read RC, Lisa, and the ones I think are Eli's
> fractured personalities. I was told that Cobra is Eli, which is why I
> stopped reading his posts a long time ago.
> oldwifetale wrote:
> > Monica wrote:
> > > I guess it's different living on a small rez than a big city like
> > > Denver. I find Lisa extremelyh offensive. I found kitty's statement
> > > offensive. But keep kissing white butts Joe. I'm sure it will buy your
> > > way into heaven.
> >
> > I just want to know, Monica... since i have held great respect for your
> > opinions in the past... when did i stop being just another human and
> > start being a "white butt"? Because it seems that so long as a white
> > woman agrees with you, it is okay, but if a white woman disagrees, she
> > loses her humanity in your eyes. This makes me feel disappointed...
> > because i do not share the same sentiment toward you. I'm not
> > commenting on intermarriage... because maybe that is more a 'cultural'
> > problem than a 'racist' one, and besides, it is none of my business.
> > But in the battle against 'racism'... i think it is just as appropriate
> > to argue for the side that is against racism in ALL its forms as it is
> > 'love' is one thing, but to have to defend the color of your skin is
> > another. Even if your skin is white. I have to confess... i feel
> > 'dehumanized' when you speak of me as a "white butt" rather than a
> > woman - just another human being - who has only exchanged friendly
> > words with you. If it is not so... then it seems i am expected to kiss
> > *your* but just because you are a native woman... which also seems like
> > a 'racist' thing to do, imo, because when it comes right down to it, i
> > don't give a shit what color your skinsuit is, i only care where your
> > heart is at. That is all i care when it comes to *any* person i am
> > willing to call a friend. Disagree with me by all means! I would take
> > no offense. But to 'invalidate' me because i am 'white'... i do not
> > understand. And please believe me, i am writing this with utmost
> > respect, regardless of my white butt.
> >
> > Donna
I've come back to this several times, Monica, with the intention to
respond... but your words are about so many various things. Also, i
wanted some time to think about how i felt. Which is the only reason i
spoke to Opine first... i do not like to have my opinions or feelings
too quickly influenced by others... when i am just trying to sort out
my own thoughts on the matter.
First about Lisa.... years ago when she used to post here, she
indicated that she was a white woman. So i have never thought of her as
'otherwise', and when you two began to fight, i really felt some
misunderstandings were happening on both sides. I didn't follow that
thread to the end because i was still homeless, and too many things
going on. I have nothing against Lisa, and if she *has* transgressed
across some cultural forbidden zone, i feel like her contributions
should at least 'balance' whatever it is that she has actually done
'wrong' - if there is anything. That is my opinion when it comes to
Lisa or anyone else, for that matter. I would rather, really, look at
the total picture. And in that picture, she seems to be a woman who
'loves her family, loves her people'. Just like you, Monica.
On the other hand, i've seen the kind of 'white women' you describe -
the ones who take the men down. I have seen them with the 'attitude' of
going in and telling everyone how this or that should be done. And i
also understand your comments about women carrying the power, and how a
white woman can't do this in the same way in another culture, and about
the ceremonies being impotent because of certain factors there.
What i don't understand, and do not like to see is a white woman
getting mistreated because she is white.... on or off the rez, or
whether she has fallen in love or even if she is using the man for some
other motive regarding her own twisted ego (which i have also seen
happen). If a woman is treated individually according to her own
actions, that is one thing... but if she is treated badly, dehumanized,
or not given any 'usual' consideration as a human being just because
she is white, or because of what some *other* white woman has done,
that is another. At least in my eyes.
About John Boy and all of this... i know nothing. I don't know if you
are right, if john doe is right, or who is right. It is just confusing
to me, as i have said before. You have offered compelling thoughts to
suggest he is innocent, but in fairness... other compelling information
suggests otherwise. How could i, an outsider who was not even there at
the time, form a conclusive opinion? This really is, to me, 'native
business' that i don't belong in. I understand about 'family business'.
This is why... Flint's opinions never disturbed me either. It isn't my
place to agree or disagree. Not because i am white. But because i DON'T
KNOW. Naturally... i usually think the feds are behind EVERY thing that
goes wrong, haha... but their extent of involvement in this... i don't
know. You once said that you weren't fighting for any 'one' person, but
only for the truth. That was a statement i could respect. In all
honesty, if the feds are involved to the extent that you believe, then
how could there ever be a 'fair trial' where the truth does come out?
There is that part of it. And then there is the part... where perhaps
everything IS what it seems and John Boy is guilty. If truth is the
highest priority here, then it seems you must leave an opening for that
possibility. It isn't fair to drag me into this battle because i have
no one to fight for here. And i am not going to sit here in some kind
of 'judgement' of you - or anyone else - because you believe a certain
way about it.
My real issue here is only a racial one.
Donna
Monica
is not Indian. She cannot speak as an Indian. She is being used
because she isn't very bright. I hear Eli in her words. Joe used her
against me. But that's okay. I can deal with that. All I have said is
that she is not Indian and she has no right to speak for us.
Antoinette thought she could speak for us too. There is an arrogance in
that. It is racist. If those who knew about Churchill had spoken out
against him in the beginning then we wouldn't have to be dealing with
all the damage he has done. I didn't pay attention to him until
recently. I don't like his writing, it is sexist and really not very
good writing. He slipped by and he put forth a lot of lies and half
truths. He has rewritten the history of our people. He has diminished
what happened to us. He wrote about the introduction of smallpox
blankets to the Mandan. He exaggerated numbers. Of course he was
discredited. BUT so was the incident of genocide. I was attacked in the
newspaper here because I spoke of the US government's attempt to kill
us off. Genocide. Did you know that there is a BIG movement to say that
it didn't happen. Paul Gottlieb, opinions page editor, told me that
genocide didn't happen. He told me that I had to find written
documentation. I have the stories of my elders. What do we do when the
white man's records are written and our history is oral tradition? Marv
Chastain one of the biggest racists in Clallam County wrote that it
didn't happen. He accused me of trying to start racial violence. All
because of the lies of Ward Churchill. There are many issues
surrounding Churchill. One is how did a white man pretending to be
Indian get by us? It wasn't just Churchill it was Doug Durham too.
Durham didn't get by the women. I'm trying to plant a seed of thought
here. Why did the men let Durham into the "Indian men's good old boy's
club?" The feds knew what they were doing. They knew what they were
doing with Churchill. Lisa is small potatos here. The point is she is
not Indian. She has no right to attack a real Indian or force her
fantasies of what Indian life should be down our throats. It's that
simple. You'll have to excuse me. It looks like I am about to come
under major attack by the fbi Indian faction.
Monica
blut...@gmail.com
for your own ugly ends Monica! it is your style to enlist some to
create alter egos to attack people here at Alt Native. You use people
and you are so paranoid you can only accuse people of being this person
or that. It's ridiculous and counterproductive and harmful to Alt
Native and beyond. Noone has EVER asked me to use THEIR WORDS PERIOD! I
learned my mother was enrolled and unearthed the bottom of a families
dirty little secret.
My grandpa Bear tried to tell us but no one listened. Hate tears at the
very fibers of hope and survival of a people. I spent me life working
parley so my children and husband would know what happened to his
mother and father. You have no idea what it is like to speak to people
who held the truth and spent their lifetimes looking for the "lost
boys" of their family not knowing my own families "dirty little
secret". Praying we would find the truth and heal the blood before
people die off never healed from not knowing. You have no idea what it
is like to be the one to explain what happened to my husbands mom and
dad to their own sons! NOTHING you can ever say will remove the pride
restored of these families being called back by the spirits.
You are happy to tell these kids they are less Indian than the rest
because they were not raised with their people. That is genocidal
thinking and keeps divides wide and scars open. I listened to faith
keepers telling us how important it is to learn and honor the people
who were raised up from the boarding school ashes. I am still stunned
by the ironic findings. You know, you accuse me of so much ugly I have
posted on Churchill and am still blown away he was enabled to weave
lies in the blankets of truth because no one put him in check! As
specially the peoples he used for his own ends. THAT is disgusting and
I pray the Churchill kind are taken to task. ANYONE writing off the
backs of first peoples struggles IS WRONG. The people need to be raised
up to write their own peoples stories and bring the truth to the world.
I have posted here fully my feelings on pladgerism big time! But that
is for another thread isnt it...
lisa
Monica
before I go. Everything is so multifaceted. I'm not side stepping the
issue that there are two sides. Since this was brought into the white
man's courts, I assume we are going to follow his laws. How silly of
me. The law says that a man has the right to be presumed innocent until
proven guilty. Maybe they should amend that to say white men. Arlo's
rights were tromped on. John's are too. This case is filled with so
much emotion. I asked you to consider what this case would look like if
it had happened in Russia to get it out of that emotion. It would
stink to high heaven of government complicity and duplicity. I
understand Flints statements that in the bigger picture this is a
Lakota ceremony to lift Anna Mae's blood off The People. But we're not
in ceremony. We're in the whtie man's court dealing with his laws. What
Flint hasn't seen is that Anna Mae's blood was also spilled on those
of us who were young women involved in the movement when she was
killed. We carry a special sorrow and knowledge that she is a symbol of
how everyone (including Indian men) thought of Indian women in those
days. To be used and abused and discarded. There has to be a healing
for us too. Railroading Arlo and John won't do it. There has to be an
accounting of the FBI and the federal government. I have gone into the
heart of darkness and considered that Arlo and John are guiltly as
charged. But if that story is true then why lie to advance it and
protect it? I have to go see if my brother is working today. If he is
then I'll have to watch mom again. This is a long story and it wears me
out.
oldwifetale
Family comes first. Go take care of your mom, we'll get back to this
later. I'm sure it will still be waiting here. :) I have some things
bearing down on me too right now, and a busy little grandson running
around. Get some rest, Monica. We are not spring chickens here.
Donna
Monica
tired, but it's a good tired. btw. Did I miss the Perseid meteor
showers?
oldwifetale
Monica wrote:
> I'll have to get back to this tomorrow. It's been a long day and I am
> tired, but it's a good tired. btw. Did I miss the Perseid meteor
> showers?
Not entirely. You can still catch the end of them for the next few
nights or more if you get out there. They were a little hard to see
this year because of the full moon, but they peaked friday and
saturday, and you could see them... faintly. It should be better now
that the moon is not so bright, although it will just be the last few
at the tail end of the showers. But what a beautiful moon it was this
month. My daughter called last week when she was driving home from
town, and said, "Mom! Go out and look at the moon!" I couldn't because
of our tree line, the moon can't be seen when it rises. She said that
from Port Angeles it appeared to be rising huge and was a bright
pinkish red. The largest moon she'd ever seen. (Part of that is because
it always looks larger when it is near the horizon, and the other was
because it was a waning full moon and the atmospheric conditions were
'just right'. And then of course... i must make a mental note for the
future... in case i should happen to accidently stumble upon the
'meaning of it all'...) But my three year old grandson was the one who
pointed it out to her in the first place, and that makes me smile a
little, inwardly. He has been completely infatuated with the moon and
sky since he was several month old. Naturally... i have always liked
that about him.
Donna
opine
Today we talked with a guy today that sundances with David Swallow
and he now claims to be Muskogee. He bragged how he has a blackstone
chanupa given to him by the Lakota. Here is the strange part, he trades
sweats and ceremony for Yoga lessons. He has a white man conned into
letting him live in a nice house for free. He really wants to get on the
rolls since his staff with feathers on it were confiscated by the
Fish and Game. He said if he could get that paper, they couldn't take
things from him anymore. His case was sent to the Feds but he said he
made sure and made a lot of noise about his connections with AIM.
The case was dropped and he was not charged. He also bragged how he now
has a bloodstone chanupa to take care of. We have known this guy for
a long time. He would on and off disappear and we wouldn't see him
around much. So this little visit we had today was very wierd.
There is a whole lot more than has been left out so no one breaks
a rib laughing at any of this. There is enough mentioned here for
you to get the idea. No one should need any inflections or facial
expressions to understand even if we are strangers. There is also
a real sadness in having had to witness what this guy was saying.
Yoga lessons traded for ceremony, now that was a new one.
So is Muskogee now the choice to claim when one of these people
wants to become a papered indian and get by legally?
There is absolutely nothing implied towards you here, Ben.
In fact, we asked him if he knew you Ben Carnes, and he said no.
He did say there were Muskogee in Oklahoma and by Anderson, MO. that
were teaching him now that were helping him to get on the rolls.
He said he would move there if the ticks were not so bad to him.
Yoga for Lakotah ceremony, imagine that!
He saves $10, twice per day, three times a week for his Yoga sessions.
Just when you thought things could not get any more strange.
So please, no one take anything personally from this. It was just a
strange thing that happened to us today. Yoga for ceremony.
My head just keeps shaking side to side.
Ben_Carnes wrote:
> Communicating through the internet really sucks. First, you don't get
> to hear the inflection of a persons voice. Second, you don't see the
> person face. and Third, we are still strangers to each other.
Ben_Carnes
a bit. Sometimes it makes me feel pretty sad that a good hearted person
has been misddirected/mislead by someone claiming to be somehting they
aren't and then using them to their utmost advantage.
When Arvol Looking Horse issued his "Protection of Ceremonies"
statement, I found a site with opposing responses. When I looked at the
whole of the issue, there was something I found very common to the
issues, which I don't see addressed very often. It seems tat when you
find people of all colors who exploits our ceremonies for their
personal benefit, look to who their "Teachers" are. That is where they
learn these methods of prostituting the ceremonies. While there are
others who lost their spiritual path and followed a materialistic path.
They in turn mislead/misdirect others. Regardless of their color.
Prior to the issuance of the statement by Arvol, I met with Bernard Red
Cherries, who had spear headed the movement to ban non-Natives from
ceremonies. We had talked of similar incidents which you have
described, and we agreed that these things shouldn't happen.
My thoughts on the issue at the time was that we needed to have more
Native people who were knowledgeable about ceremonies out in the world
to help keep these activities in check. I have never opposed a
non-Native participating in a ceremony. I just hoped they would do it
ith a good heart and not misuse it.
In the society of religion, it has became a marketplace for status and
power. Remember Jim Baker and the others who fell. Even in the small
churches across the country, they have falied their followers. People
tend to become disillusioned with their religious/spiritual leaders and
turn someplace else for spiritual comfort. Even our own people lose
faith in many of the well known Native leaders.
In the past year and a half, I've had to do a lot of praying on several
matters. The one that was the most difficult was allowing non_natives
greater participation in ceremonies. I always had a saying, " I trust
the arbor/altar to take care of itself" in reference to Indian people
coming in and trying to play super medicine man or super sundancer.
Someone had asked me what it would take for a non-Native to participate
in a Sundance. At the time, the only answer I had was that it would
require a blood ceremony. Then they said what if those people don't
have a blood ceremony or if it isn't there way? I didn't have an
answer, and it made me think about what I have always said about
trusting the arbor or having faith in the Creator. So I prayed on it. I
got my answer. When I did, I thought "Oh shit! I am going to lose a lot
of friends over this one, but if this is what I am to do then just send
me the ones who are for real, please. Not the nuts and flakes, I'm not
ready to handle that.
I know that if I am to have faith in the Creator, then I have to trust.
I've heard from some Lakota people that they believe some people are a
bridge between the colors of people and that one will never know who it
will be. One example I have heard about recently is a non-Native man
who invited the Thunder Being nations into a ceremony. The man who told
me about this is someone I trust and he was impressed that a non-Native
had the belief and knowledge of the forms to do this ceremony. This man
had received a very powerful gift and uses it in the right way. So if
anyone says a non-Native cannot perform a Native ceremony, then they
haven't met the good ones. Only the bad ones.
So by doing what I have, I've assumed a greater responsibility to
ensure that the people I help and prepare for ceremonies know what they
have to do. If they go out and misuse the ceremonies, I will fel
responsible and have to address it in some manner. Also, by allowing
some non-Natives in, I will eventually end up on someone's plastic
medicine man list. So I haven't made my life any easier.
If I did I could easily travel abroad and make the money and sleep with
several women. But that isn't what I am about. It is an absolute
contrdiction of what I believe, so I am here everyday, struggling to
keep food on the table, months behind on my rent and land payment, but
I trust the Creator will help me to take care of my family. So I hope
that I can at least be a good example of a person who folows this way
of life.
All I can do is make a prayer that those who are misusing the
ceremonies wil get their life together and they will use what they know
to help the people instead of using and hurting them. There is a saying
that you can take whatever you want from Gods store, but you will pay
for it if you misuse it. Those gifts from his store is for the people
and not for ones personal selfish reasons.
Ben