ANNA MAE AQUASH 4 OR DR. BROWN’S REASONS HE COULD NOT FIND THE CORRECT CAUSE OF DEATH
Monica
ANNA MAE AQUASH 4 OR DR. BROWN’S REASONS HE COULD NOT FIND THE CORRECT
CAUSE OF DEATH
A few notes before I begin. I braved the land mines at alt.native and
once again left because I was very confused. I e-mailed Monica and
asked her for a list of who is who and how they are involved in the
Anna Mae case. It was most helpful.
If you are really interested in learning more about this case go to
alt.native and read the comments to my saga and other posts. There are
some really good comments. Aside from the obvious… Monica Charles.
There is a man named Dave who has written a book about the murder but
it has not been published for legal reasons…I’m a bit embarrassed that
Dave is reading anything I write because he is also the author of
several books, most notable is POW WOW HIGHWAY(I ordered a copy for
2.52 on Amazon. Which I will feel guilty about now!) which was turned
into a movie. He has also written an epic poem CREATION’S MYTH ( I
cannot find anywhere) which has been compared to PARADISE LOST by John
Milton. More books I need to read!!!
Thank you thavanag for pointing out my obvious error J.Edgar not
Herbert. And Monica you were exactly right I was pissed off and do
know the difference. If you all knew how many times I went over my
posts and still miss obvious mistakes…Scholar I do not pretend to be!
Flint Carr is Richard Two Elks who gave testimony in the trial against
Arlo Looking Cloud for the murder of Anna Mae Aquash.
Here are links to comments from alt.native concerning Anna Mae Part 1
part 2 and part 3.
Now for Anna Mae’s continuing saga…
Dr. W.O. Brown,….the pathologist…was unrepentant (about his inability
to find the bullet in Anna Mae’s head).
“A litle bullet isn’t hard to overlook,” he said. “It certainly isn’t
the first time a bullet was overlooked.” And, Why all the interest in
this case? It seems awfully routine, you know. So they found an Indian
body-so a body was found.” And, “I suppose the Indians will never let
that woman die. AIM’s trying to stir up all the trouble they can. It’s
a matter of record that Indians use every little incident that they
can to create a situation over. They distort facts and use it to their
advantage to further their cause. But I’ve tried to remain neutral. .
I don’t think I ‘m prejudiced.”
…he had missed it only because the hospital’s X-ray machine had been
broken. But he soon reversed course:
The machine was fine.
…he had merely chosen not to use it because X-rays were “too time-
consuming,” “too awkward,” and “at times unsuccessful.” And anyway,
since “it’s fairly common for Indians like these to die of an
overdose,”…
(…Aquash’s blood was free of drugs or alcohol.)
…he had cut short his exam because the body was”stinky” and
decomposed”
But from his verdict he did not swerve. It was the frost that had
taken Anna Mae Aquash, not the bullet. The bullet, he said, may have
pierced the brain casing, but not the brain proper. If it had entered
the casing, it might have started a chain of events that incapacitated
Aquash and left her at the mercy of the cold, but the shot did not
kill her.
So basically this guy missed….
the stained sheet under her head…
her gunpowdered and bloodied hair…
the hole through several layers of bone….
(including the brain, through which the bullet had in fact passed and
which Brown had removed and examined before dumping it in Aquash’s
chest with the other dissected organs). I don’t get this part is
Hendricks saying that Brown did find the bullet or is Brown claiming
that he did see it but was lying???
And finally the bullet itself.
Among other “errors” in the autopsy, he claimed to have dissected and
measured Aquash’s stomach, one of her kidneys, and her adrenal glands,
but Dr. Peterson found all of these organs were attached, unopened,
and with the metrics quite different from Brown’s.
….Dr Brown reported that Aquash had not been raped and had been dead
no more than 10 days, Peterson concluded that rape could not be ruled
out and Aquash could hav been killed weeks, even months, before she
was found.
To be continued with SPECIAL AGENT ZIGROSSI CONFUSED AGAIN!
oldwifetale
> http://elizabethtool.com/2009/03/06/anna-mae-aquash-4-or-dr-browns-re...
>
> ANNA MAE AQUASH 4 OR DR. BROWN’S REASONS HE COULD NOT FIND THE CORRECT
> CAUSE OF DEATH
> A few notes before I begin. I braved the land mines at alt.native and
> once again left because I was very confused. I e-mailed Monica and
> asked her for a list of who is who and how they are involved in the
> Anna Mae case. It was most helpful.
>
> If you are really interested in learning more about this case go to
> alt.native and read the comments to my saga and other posts.
Gosh, Elizabeth.
I (and *possibly* other posters at alt.native) would like to gushingly
thank you for the notoriety. It's always interesting to see how one's
cyber-hometown is being respected out there in the big world-wide-web,
especially by those who have not yet graced us with their presence,
nor actually interacted with any of our residents (unless you are
perhaps counting the 'one' who does not mind pooping in her own back
yard). Truly, as you have driven through, i hope you have taken
appropriate 'snapshots' of our colorful peoples to post on your
blog.
It is written (somewhere or other)... that all things happen for a
reason. Well, you see, we are in the process of rebuilding alt.native.
Our population has been dwindling to near-extinction levels. Some of
us might be looking for the few, the brave, the proud - (and as i see
it, people who can stand up to Monica Charles). Some of us might also
be waiting for a return of the Old Ones. It is also written (you can
google it)... that bad press is good press. Whatever that means. I'm
all for looking on the bright side. :)
> There are
> some really good comments. Aside from the obvious… Monica Charles.
> There is a man named Dave who has written a book about the murder but
> it has not been published for legal reasons…
Um, yoo-hoo. I noticed you did not mention my name among your posters
of "good comments". But... perhaps i am being too sensitive. Why on
earth would you have any reason to be biased? Hmmmmm......
> I’m a bit embarrassed that
> Dave is reading anything I write because he is also the author of
> several books, most notable is POW WOW HIGHWAY(I ordered a copy for
> 2.52 on Amazon. Which I will feel guilty about now!) which was turned
> into a movie. He has also written an epic poem CREATION’S MYTH ( I
> cannot find anywhere) which has been compared to PARADISE LOST by John
> Milton. More books I need to read!!!
A *Big Slurpy Award* goes out to YOU, Elizabeth!
Maybe you'll get an autograph!
>
> Thank you thavanag for pointing out my obvious error J.Edgar not
> Herbert. And Monica you were exactly right I was pissed off and do
> know the difference. If you all knew how many times I went over my
> posts and still miss obvious mistakes…Scholar I do not pretend to be!
Whew! One less pretense to worry about.
> Flint Carr is Richard Two Elks who gave testimony in the trial against
> Arlo Looking Cloud for the murder of Anna Mae Aquash.
>
> Here are links to comments from alt.native concerning Anna Mae Part 1
> part 2 and part 3.
>
> Now for Anna Mae’s continuing saga…
Great that your posting chapter excerpts from one book. Also wonderful
that you are being well-advised on which books to read. Yes, your
impartial reporting is simply amazing! Do drop in during your next
drive-thru.
Hope
[...]
> Some of us might also
> be waiting for a return of the Old Ones.
I read that there is a prophecy that in the last days of this age many
of the Old Ones will return, in bodies of all colors, to aid in the
healing and transition by breaking down some of the barriers. I think
that is true. I've met people who just seemed to be born knowing
things they should have no way of knowing in the group they were born
to. But I'm pretty sure some people would be highly offended at the
idea of certain colors of skin being included in this. There are
folks who will continue to chant their "They have no right! They are
not worthy!" mantra, even to Spirit.
[...]
>
> Great that your posting chapter excerpts from one book. Also wonderful
> that you are being well-advised on which books to read. Yes, your
> impartial reporting is simply amazing! Do drop in during your next
> drive-thru.
Come on, Donna! At least it's progress. I was told not to even
comment about this subject because I'm White and can't understand it,
and if I did comment it would be considered hijacking the thread. And
actually, I agree it's best I not say anything about it, because I
think it's too complex for me to sort through 30 yrs after the fact. I
have no personal experience of it, and I don't know anyone who has. I
think the people involved have too high a personal stake in it to tell
the unbiased truth. And people's lives are at stake. This really is
a life and death issue. I think it would be pretty arrogant of me to
think I could step in and make sense of it all when the people
involved don't seem to be able to do that. And they've been trying for
a lot longer than I could give it.
But at least an exception has been made and a WHITE person has not
only been allowed to comment, but actively encouraged (at least by
some) to do so! That's real social progress, isn't it? We should
feel good that one of "us" has made it, shouldn't we? We have a
"token White" in the circle now. And as long as she keeps her place
and doesn't try to worship with her sponsors or marry one of their
kids, everything should be fine. ;-) She doesn't need people
accusing her of being an Indian butt kisser or whatever the
appropriate version of "Uncle Tom" would be in this case. We should
wish her all the best.
Of course, I suppose continued support and encouragement and
sponsorship might be contingent upon what she says and how she says
it. Hopefully there will be a little more integrity involved than
that. Maybe integration will work better in this direction and skin
color really will cease to be judged in time. If an exception can be
made once, and this person can be seen as an individual rather than a
race, then maybe we will start to hear less and less "Stay out of
____! You're WHITE!" Maybe certain people will stop worrying about
how they can keep "the others" OUT and start thinking about places for
everyone IN the circle of life.
Time will tell...
Monica
Donna! Do be more gracious. You're embarrassing alt.native. More so
because you are not NATIVE. Lizzy is white and her blog reaches a
broad audience. I think that is what frightens the fbi. They want to
keep the Anna Mae issue quiet as usual. Now it's leaking out. Oops!
James Simon, your fbi compadre, should not have gone to her blog to
bully her. It made her mad. Now she's posting every day about Anna
Mae. Lizzy is reaching people that neither David nor I could have. It
was synchronicity too. She innocently posted a link to Wikipedias
article on Anna Mae on her blog after listening to a song about her.
Notice of that came into my mail box on my Anna Mae alert. I told her
to do more reading because Demain sits on the wikipedia site and
removes or rewrites anything positive about Arlo, John and Dick. Peter
Webster contacted her and gave her a reading list. Of course I am
thrilled because this is true synchronicity. It was supposed to
happen. Spirits are in control. Not the contrived synchronicity of the
fbi. Like when they arrested Arlo. It wasn't the date they announced.
They announced that Arlo had been arrested on Anna Mae's birthday.
Then big bad cops Abe Alonzo and Bob Eccoffey cried. How sweet. I
couldn't influence Lizzy if I wanted to. She has a strong mind of her
own. Just ask James Simon.
Hope
> Donna! Do be more gracious. You're embarrassing alt.native.
By being critical of a WHITE person? Now that's ironic. *LOL*
Monica
Isn't it!
oldwifetale
Sorry, Monica, but i'm not basing my 'criticism' on race; i'm basing
it on 'content'. :)
Hope
> > > On Mar 7, 12:10 pm, Monica <yano...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Donna! Do be more gracious. You're embarrassing alt.native.
>
> > > By being critical of a WHITE person? Now that's ironic. *LOL*
>
> > Isn't it!
>
> Sorry, Monica, but i'm not basing my 'criticism' on race; i'm basing
> it on 'content'. :)
Well I just have a headache, probably from it spinning all the way
around. ;-) Monica recently wrote on her blog about White women
"taking over" alt.native and that it was in its death throes solely
because of that fact...and here she is defending a White woman's
appearance in (and opinion of) alt.native and telling another White
woman that she should be polite and gracious to a White woman popping
in to alt.native. *LOL* We are all capable of change, it seems.
Happily, I have yet to see anyone call Lizzie names or insult her
ancestors, relatives, or personal life, in spite of her race. So
maybe it is not always *race* that is truly the problem for some
people, but rather people's conflicting opinions about political or
social issues, ya think? Maybe it's just easier to blame it on race.
And maybe that will change.
Alt.native does not appear to be dead, even with extra White people
showing up. In fact, it seems to be blossoming. People are
discussing all kinds of things. I used to read this one group
occasionally, but 9 of every 10 posts are between two guys who hate
one another and a couple of their followers. It's nothing but mud
slinging and mutual accusations. Maybe someone will try to introduce
an actual topic every three or four months, but it fizzles out.
Everybody else has pretty much quit trying and gone elsewhere. I
would hate to see it ever get to that point here.
But I don't think it will. Things seem to be looking up at least a
little bit all around! Never mind the headache, it does my *heart*
good. :-)
Monica
Okay the question is, Are you whites willing to allow change? From
your post I would say that you will not.
Why don't you go over to pudgy Indian and talk with him about racism?
You'll get another viewpoint that you wouldn't get here. His blog is
very popular around the world.
Hope
>> Things seem to be looking up at least a
> > little bit all around! Never mind the headache, it does my *heart*
> > good. :-)
>
> Okay the question is, Are you whites willing to allow change? From
> your post I would say that you will not.
Which post? The last one, or an earlier one? If someone is going to
make a judgment about my state of mind, don't forget all the ones I
have posted recently--many of them agreeing with you and other posters
about different topics that have been presented. Put them all on the
scale or put none of them there. But not just certain ones somebody
picks out.
You and I have had some very civil conversations lately, so I would
say we have both changed. I have enjoyed them and learned a lot. I
for one really hope that continues. If a condition of our
conversations remaining civil is that neither of us can express any
opinion that the other disagrees with, without it being made about
race, then it won't work. And I would truly be sorry about that. I
will express my opinions, as you will express yours, and that's as it
should be. No two people are always going to agree, and certainly you
and I won't. But I *will not* go back down into the swamp of name
calling and personal insults. I don't like the things that live in
there. And I don't like myself when I visit.
>
> Why don't you go over to pudgy Indian and talk with him about racism?
> You'll get another viewpoint that you wouldn't get here. His blog is
> very popular around the world.
I responded to his post here. I am not interested in *fighting* about
racism and bragging about who I "beat down" or "demolished." Nor am I
interested in trying to have a *discussion* with someone who pre-
judges my position by my color before I have a chance to say a word.
I don't think it's a good rule to judge whether someone has a right to
speak or is trying to "dominate" based on whether or not they agree
with a certain person.
I'm sure I would get a different viewpoint there, and that his blog is
popular, and I'm sure there is a good reason for that. Perhaps, when
I am feeling especially grounded and able to accept things for what
they are rather than just react to them, I will go visit and do more
reading. It would not be fair of *me* to go if I am going to pre-
judge and look for things not to like either.
On the other hand, I have had people tell me the same thing about some
of the White Power sites and say I should give them a look--you know,
"support my race" and all that. I declined. I am not interested in
promoting racism from *any* side of its ugly, hulking, black hole blob
of an existence. I will not help keep it alive by feeding it another
ego-driven pissing contest from either side of the fence. Sooner or
later one of those fences is going to be electrified.
If a *discussion* can be about the *issues,* great, I'm all for that.
A LOT of work needs to be done to get the playing field within a
million miles of level. There are centuries of wrongs that need to be
righted. But if it's going to become about personal stuff and venting
misplaced rage and who can insult the other person the most times in a
futile attempt to "prove" which person is the biggest racist, I'm
outta there. That's been done to death for centuries. Look where it
has gotten us. None of us *have* to interact with people who cannot
treat us with common courtesy and respect as fellow human beings. NONE
of us.
People are going to judge me however they want, whether they choose to
do it based on my skin color, my gender, my age, my opinions, my
character, or whatever else they choose. It would be a waste of my
energy trying to *force* them to change their minds. I will be true
to myself and my path, and they can make of that what they will. They
will either see me as I am, or they will see me as they want to see
me, or they will refuse to see me at all. I can't control that. I
*can* control whether or not I say and do what I believe in my heart
to be right, and that's what I will be held accountable for when all
is said and done--no matter what anyone else thinks, says, or does
about it. That's my truth.
On a lighter note, I hope you're having a wonderful weekend! It is
like spring here, except the wind is blowing so hard I had to take all
my bird feeders down and pick up all the stuff that has blown up from
the road. It wouldn't surprise me if we get a thunderstorm. I love
them though. My mom thinks I'm crazy. And I know she isn't the only
one, right? ;-p
PEP
can't express opinions, can't speak about these issues.
But she doesn't mind using her white sock puppet (irony that the name
is Tool) to gather fawning adulation for herself and try to insult
others here and smear the entire group.
You know, that's just plain crazy. Again.
But, it's nice to know that Monica has brought us a newly-hatched
white expert to 'splain it all. Of course, said sock puppet doesn't
have the guts to show up herself. It's a nice little act, isn't it?
Nah. Not worth watching once ya figure it out.
LL
PEP
an act, with continued malice. And, as far as I know, Tool hasn't yet
shown up on her own, so someone egging her on, giving her the words,
and then copying her rechewed stuff to repost here doesn't say
anything at all about real communication and relations between people.
As for you being told not to speak about this issue or others--that
was just one person's opinion. Not a realistic expression of NDN
country.
If you accept that someone has to give people permission to speak, and
that someone's announcement of said rules is the basis of a perception
about talking with native peoples, then that's a mighty shaky base.
It's just a con job, trying to redirect energies to focus again on one
person and her desire to hold the one ring, one ring to bind them, one
ring to rule them all, and be Queen of Mordor.
LL
PEP
>
> Alt.native does not appear to be dead, even with extra White people
> showing up. In fact, it seems to be blossoming. People are
> discussing all kinds of things.
Yes, there are several who are working to "reblossom" alt.native. And
we're not counting the number of white, red, yellow, brown, black,
taipoca, taupe, maroon, mauve, or seashell pink skins, either.
Doing so is not the history and tradition of the real alt.native,
which has been almost destroyed. But whaddya know? Blossoms again.
Thanks for noticing and chiming in!
LL
Monica
You are so funny.
Hope
> No, Hope, this isn't about "progress."
Well, okay, I have to confess, I was being just a tiny bit sarcastic.
I know it's a shock. Mea culpa. ;-p
> As for you being told not to speak about this issue or others--that
> was just one person's opinion. Not a realistic expression of NDN
> country.
>
That's good to be reminded of from time to time. I really do want to
be respectful and not be one of "those" people who just waltz in and
expect everyone to adjust to their preferred way of doing things. And
I do see the arrogance of the way that often happens in real life,
when a mixture of people get together to try to accomplish something.
Oftentimes it *is* a White person who jumps in and "takes control,"
while representatives of other groups tend to hang back and not be
forward. The article MT recommended about that has changed the way I
look at many situations. I am an old dog, but I can still learn a new
trick or two.
And I don't mind it at all when someone respectfully points things out
that I might be doing without realizing it and educates me as to a
more acceptable way. I have found that not only students, but human
beings in general, are able to listen much more carefully and and take
ownership of their actions and accept correction if they do not feel
attacked. When that happens, their energy immediately goes toward
trying to defend themselves and save face and think of ways to reject
the wound of being called stupid/selfish/lazy/whatever, and they
really can't focus on what it is *they* might need to change to make
the situation better.
> If you accept that someone has to give people permission to speak, and
> that someone's announcement of said rules is the basis of a perception
> about talking with native peoples, then that's a mighty shaky base.
I agree. It gets to be a balancing act sometimes, trying to decide
whether you feel strongly enough about something to say it, when you
know with a good degree of certainty it's going to provoke a hostile
reaction. And then you have to decide if that might end up serving a
good end by getting people talking, or whether it's just going to be a
waste-of-time flame war. I don't think anyone can give any other
posters here permission to speak. But I do think there are things it
is best I don't speak about, except perhaps to ask questions. I do
need to get past that "teacher mindset" of always being the one
talking more than listening. ;-)
> It's just a con job, trying to redirect energies to focus again on one
> person and her desire to hold the one ring, one ring to bind them, one
> ring to rule them all, and be Queen of Mordor.
*LOL* They can keep the ring. I just want to be an Elf.
Hope
> Hope said:
>
>
>
> > Alt.native does not appear to be dead, even with extra White people
> > showing up. In fact, it seems to be blossoming. People are
> > discussing all kinds of things.
>
> Yes, there are several who are working to "reblossom" alt.native. And
> we're not counting the number of white, red, yellow, brown, black,
> taipoca, taupe, maroon, mauve, or seashell pink skins, either.
Well, some do...and that's fine too, as long as they tend their own
garden. ;-) Tapioca skinned...that's a new and creative one!
Unfortunately I'm picturing thighs with bad cellulite. *LOL*
>
> Doing so is not the history and tradition of the real alt.native,
> which has been almost destroyed. But whaddya know? Blossoms again.
"Just remember in the winter/ Underneath the bitter snows/ Lies the
seed that with the sun's love/ In the spring, becomes the rose."
Sorry, I couldn't resist. And now at least one or two people are
going to have that song stuck in their heads for awhile. Hehehe...
>
> Thanks for noticing and chiming in!
>
> LL
I am enjoying it immensely! The energy here is feeling much better
lately.
PEP
"Tapioca skinned...that's a new and creative one!
Unfortunately I'm picturing thighs with bad cellulite. *LOL* "
No, the thighs with bad cellulite are the rice pudding
thighs. ;}
The debbil made me do it,
LL
Hope
> Hope, in a burst of physical fitness fervor, opined:
>
you will know the real Hope has been killed and I'm now an evil pod
person. ;-p
1X2Willows
>
> No, the thighs with bad cellulite are the rice pudding
> thighs. ;}
- or to put it in Dutch...
Orange peel?
oldwifetale
I respectfully disagree, Hope (and i do respect you, so that's not
just a 'word' to throw out there). That is very much like the position
i took for many years here on alt.native in regard to this case and
these trials, and all the people involved. I wasn't there, it was too
complicated, too much time had passed, etc. - so i stayed out of it.
But eventually my silence became 'disturbing' to one particular person
here who not only 'invited' me to research and comment, but literally
*harrassed* me about it to no end. The odd thing was that the more i
looked, the more i realized that only one 'side' was being presented
here by my 'harrasser' and her cohorts.
It is not only John Graham's and Arlo Looking Cloud's lives involved,
nor 'their' families... but many other people's lives too, including
the lives of Anna Mae's daughters, and the people who have been
courageous enough to speak out and/or testify against either the FBI
or AIM or *both*. What happened at Wounded Knee 1973 and to Anna Mae
is something every 'american' of any color or origin should know
about. It isn't Indian history *only* - it is American history
involving all of us who have ever lived here. It has become as
important to me as it is to just about anyone directly involved that
the 'whole' truth be shown, not just a one-sided version concocted by
*some* (not all, by a long stretch) old AIM members to create a
massive FBI conspiracy in order to divert attention away from
themselves. I have seen posters attacked here on alt.native when, upon
deeper inspection, there was no good justification for it. So, no, i
do not think being 'white' has anything to do with being able and
willing and 'free' to comment. I don't think that by Monica promoting
Elizabeth (or vice versa) she is making 'progress'. If whiteness is an
issue here, it is because Elizabeth was *used* (albeit willingly) as a
token white person to do the dirty work of Monica Charles, David Seals
and others who have taken an obvious (and premature, imo) *side* in
order to build a 'legal' case - which ultimately benefits themselves
more than anyone else, and has actually done harm to others.
Take the 'perjury' accusation against Richard Two Elk, for instance.
Upon really 'thinking' about it, that accusation is as fluffy as
cotton candy. You can't take opinions that someone stated 9 years ago,
put it up against testimony that was given on the stand 4 years later
and then compare opinions that have developed up to this point with
new information, and say someone was 'lying' or commiting perjury.
There was no apparent 'lie', only an evolution of theory and opinion,
and the adding of more parts to the story. Most of these accusations
are not about what Richard Two Elk said that was later contradicted,
but about what Richard claimed that *Arlo* said but later recanted.
Or take this multiple-excerpt blogging by Elizabeth about the bullet
and the doctors. Why did she not post any response from the site that
Anna Mae's daughters have contributed to, in regard to the bullet and
the medical examiners? Many of these points are addressed in "The Lies
of John Graham". She gave a few 'links', but apparently didn't feel it
was worth 'quoting'. Again - this is a biased view based on the
opinions of Monica Charles, who claims to have been at Wounded Knee,
but won't give personal accounts of her time there.
And so on, and so forth. Yes, we *all* have a right (and maybe even an
obligation) to look into this history and also to comment on it, imo.
Donna
Hope
Points taken. And as I said to LL, I was being a bit sarcastic in my
post about having an "approved White person" actually being encouraged
to get involved in the case, when other Whites had been told to keep
their noses out of it because it was none of their business.
Obviously there are lots of Whites involved in the actual case, and
African-Americans were involved too. It is not strictly an Indian
issue.
I would not presume to tell anyone what they should be interested in
or get involved in. You're right, this is a very important case. Not
only is it life and death, but it *will* have a much broader impact,
as you said. But I also know *my* limitations. I have to pick my
battles, and this one is not for me. It *is* too complex...for *me*.
It is too emotionally charged for me to be able to remain neutral and
objective and follow just the facts. I can't immerse myself in it
without taking on those emotions. And right now I can't afford to do
that, since I am taking on so many real-life emotions with what's
going on in my family. Being empathic can be a real blessing. It
also sometimes sucks. *S*
I will keep reading about it, especially since both "sides" are being
represented here. But I have to keep some distance. My ego wants to
jump in and figure out where people are making mistakes (on either
side) and "fix" this so people can stop fighting about it. But that
is beyond my capabilities, and that's what I meant by keeping my
arrogance in check. It's not something *I* have the skills to figure
out or fix--especially in a short time. And I suspect that may be
true of others as well.
You guys have been following this and studying it for a long time.
You know a lot about the people involved. It's not the same thing,
and I did not mean to insinuate that *no one* should be involved. I
do think people--especially late comers--need to be careful about not
making it a "cult of personality" issue. That happens to a lot of
history. The story we end up getting is more about who wrote it and
what "character" they identified with and what their personal agenda
was than about the facts. There are just so many issues involved in
this, and so many people have a stake in it that it's difficult to
find a single thread and follow it through the big tangled ball to its
end, let alone unravel the whole ball.
nrunni...@gmail.com
> Again - this is a biased view based on the
> opinions of Monica Charles, who claims to have been at Wounded Knee,
> but won't give personal accounts of her time there.
>
i think this is unfair.
there were many at wk2 that prefer not to talk about it.
or regret it when they do.
not that they are ashamed of it, hell, no!
but because they just choose not to talk about it, for whatever
personal reason, and therefore that should be respected.
Monica
>
> - Show quoted text -
I haven't told whites to stay out of the case. I have told lisa that
she cannot speak about our religious beliefs. It is wrong for her to
appropriate our spirituality and culture. She has no knowledge and no
right and she enver will. We speak by right of blood. She doesn't have
any.
The fbi is trying to cover up the murder once and for all by assigning
blame to John Graham and Arlo Looking Cloud. They have no evidence,
what they did have they "lost." This story is bigger than you can
possibly imagine. It is stolen lands, it is about uranium mining on
reservations, it is about war games played on Indians, it is about
cointel.
Take a real good look at Richard Two Elk's interview before the fbi
has it pulled. They built their case on the story he told. It was the
story that the fbi WANTED told. They manipulated time, places and
dates to fit their contrived story. The story they are telling is not
true.
There is the fbi document that says they were watching girls that
looked like Anna Mae. There are the differing descriptions of the
girls at the crime scene and the two autopsies. Did they kill
lookalike girls to cover her murder? The fbi must clear themselves of
the fiasco of the different bodies. THOSE families need closure.
The feds wouldn't allow dna testing of the body. BOTH Arlo and John
asked for it. Denise said Arlo wanted identity of the body that was in
that grave. The court denied it. I have questions too if ANY of those
bodies was her.
Demain and two elves have said that she was killed because she knew
who actually killed those agents at Jumping Bull. It's entirely
possible that the real shooter was an fbi plant. It is also very
possible he is the one that killed Anna Mae.
Demain brought up the possibility that she was killed elsewhere and
dumped at the crime scene. If that's true then the whole story of John
and Arlo simply couldn't have happened. The fbi has many story lines
going.
oldwifetale
Yep, i totally agree with you - in principle - and it is like any war
where those things aren't often talked about on either side from a
personal level. It's nobody's business. But i don't feel that way in
this instance. In most cases i think *any* personal experience should
be respected, but *not* when you are using it to build some kind of
case - or accusing 'other' people (who were also involved) of all
kinds of things while one's own activities in the same place and time
are never mentioned. Then it does become other people's business
(especially those who are accused), and i think it's unfair to leave
one's self out of the picture. It is basically saying, "I was there" -
as some kind of 'proof' about any particular claim or accusation
without saying what you saw or heard that actually proves something.
If she thinks other people's lives and reputations are 'fair game' to
be dragged through the mud, and they are demanded to 'expose' their
private personal lives and experiences for all to see - even when they
are not on trial - why not her?
Dave
> http://elizabethtool.com/2009/03/06/anna-mae-aquash-4-or-dr-browns-re...
>
> CAUSE OF DEATH
> A few notes before I begin. I braved the land mines at alt.native and
> once again left because I was very confused. I e-mailed Monica and
> asked her for a list of who is who and how they are involved in the
> Anna Mae case. It was most helpful.
>
> If you are really interested in learning more about this case go to
> alt.native and read the comments to my saga and other posts. There are
> some really good comments. Aside from the obvious… Monica Charles.
> There is a man named Dave who has written a book about the murder but
> it has not been published for legal reasons…I’m a bit embarrassed that
> Dave is reading anything I write because he is also the author of
> several books, most notable is POW WOW HIGHWAY(I ordered a copy for
> 2.52 on Amazon. Which I will feel guilty about now!) which was turned
> into a movie. He has also written an epic poem CREATION’S MYTH ( I
> cannot find anywhere) which has been compared to PARADISE LOST by John
> Milton. More books I need to read!!!
THE CREATION MYTH is circulating privately among spiritual people,
partly because it's about Ceremonies that can't be made public. One of
which names the killers of Anna Mae Aquash, who, it turns out, was and
is a very important Spirit.
>
> Thank you thavanag for pointing out my obvious error J.Edgar not
> Herbert. And Monica you were exactly right I was pissed off and do
> know the difference. If you all knew how many times I went over my
> posts and still miss obvious mistakes…Scholar I do not pretend to be!
>
> Flint Carr is Richard Two Elks who gave testimony in the trial against
> Arlo Looking Cloud for the murder of Anna Mae Aquash.
Two Elk should be arrested for perjury.
The first autopsy was not the body of Anna Mae, but another woman we
know about, whose relatives came to the Pine Ridge hospital that
night!
Flint_...@hotmail.com
> It is basically saying, "I was there" -
> as some kind of 'proof' about any particular claim or accusation
> without saying what you saw or heard that actually proves something.
> If she thinks other people's lives and reputations are 'fair game' to
> be dragged through the mud, and they are demanded to 'expose' their
> private personal lives and experiences for all to see - even when they
> are not on trial - why not her?
Zacklee!
the question recently put on the table is...
when did monica charles work in the infirmary in WK? How long did she
work there? and was she present, or does she have direct knowledge of
Ray Robinsons Murder, OR did she at any time WITNESS his care or
neglect thereof...?
i meanz...since she WAS at WK in 73...
Dave
Yeah, don't deal with the issues, make personal attacks. Classic pig.
Hope
> I haven't told whites to stay out of the case.
With all due respect Monica, one of us is remembering wrong. It might
be me, but I remember you telling me to stay out of it, not long after
I started posting here. The very first time I posted a comment in a
thread about this topic, you told me I should not get involved or
"hijack the thread" because I was White and should "show respect" to
the people involved. I was surprised that taking an interest in it
would be considered disrespectful. You reminded me that you had told
me if you felt I was being disrespectful, you would "slap me down."
Does that ring a bell? ;-)
I did not post anything else about it, because I did not want it to
become another personal fight and become about personalities rather
than the issue, and because I *did* respect the lives of the people
involved. I am still of that opinion. There are enough people
involved in this issue without me jumping into the middle of it here
at the end. If there is something I feel *compelled* to say, then I
will. But otherwise, I will "listen and learn" on this issue.
> I have told lisa that
> she cannot speak about our religious beliefs. It is wrong for her to
> appropriate our spirituality and culture. She has no knowledge and no
> right and she enver will. We speak by right of blood. She doesn't have
> any.
This is a different issue. And she did say she has never been in a
Shaker meeting. Obviously I don't know what kind of knowledge she
has, and I'm not sure how you could know that either or what authority
is involved in telling her what she can speak of. This religion you
are speaking of is apparently very different than the one I was raised
in. For example, an African-American family moved in to our community
and started coming to our church. I am trying to imagine someone
saying to them that they had no right to be there or accuse them of
trying to "steal" our religion by coming to worship with us. I can't.
I guess that is because it was never considered a "Whites only"
religion--though certainly some folks acted as if it did belong
strictly to them and that Jesus was White and the Bible was originally
written in King James English. I always got a big laugh out of that.
And there were some people who were uncomfortable--but not because
they were afraid something was being taken away from them by Blacks
being there. It was more about their personal feelings about race.
The same thing happens when Whites go to one of the "Black churches,"
which also occasionally happened. For the most part, people divided
into churches based on their race. I always kinda felt like we were
all a bit poorer for that. But then again, I always had "weird
ideas." *lol*
When I was in high school and the father of one of my good friends (a
full-blood Creek, and the first boy I ever kissed) died, he and his
mom asked our choir to sing at the funeral, which was held at an
Indian church. I could tell there were a few members who were not
comfortable with us being there. But the family had invited us. And
we were all respectful, and no one made any negative remarks about the
service afterward, even though it was quite different from what we
were used to. So all was well. I think it was a good experience to
see that there are other ways people worship other than just the ones
we are used to and that our way is not the "only" way. We have
"community worship services" in my town around Easter and Christmas.
They move from church to church, and member from all the other
churches attend. I think that's a good thing. It promotes
understanding and community unity. I don't think it insults Spirit.
But again, that is a different thing than what you are speaking of.
I do realize the Tribes have their own ceremonies and that they are
sacred and not for those outside the Tribes. And in some cases not
for everyone *in* the Tribe either. That is reality, and it is not my
place to judge it, since I am not part of it and do not have the
knowledge to even begin to have an informed opinion. Nor would my
opinion be sought, which is as it should be. It is not my place to
choose what is Sacred for anyone else. However, from my limited
understanding, if someone is moved by Spirit to *invite* someone to
ceremonies and it is not against Tribal law to do so, then that is
honored by the others. The visitors are of course expected to respect
the rules and traditions of the ceremony.
I'm not sure whether people from other communities or Tribes would
have a say about that. Do they? For example, would a Cherokee or
Sioux have a right to say who you could invite to Makah ceremonies, or
vice versa? Would one group of Sioux have a right to judge what
another Sioux group was doing spiritually? I am ignorant about that.
I have my own spirituality, which comes from my heart, and which I am
finding is very much like a mixture of the Old Ways of the Cherokee
and the Celts and other ancient People. I believe we are all children
of Mother Earth and the Creator, and that we are all loved as such.
If someone came to me and asked me to share my beliefs and ceremonies
with them, and I felt they were sincere, then I would. But that is
me. And that does not mean it has to be that way for all. Spirit
does not show the same face to everyone.
>
> The fbi is trying to cover up the murder once and for all by assigning
> blame to John Graham and Arlo Looking Cloud. They have no evidence,
> what they did have they "lost." This story is bigger than you can
> possibly imagine. It is stolen lands, it is about uranium mining on
> reservations, it is about war games played on Indians, it is about
> cointel.
>
I know that it is far bigger than I can imagine. I know there are
many issues involved, as I have said, which is why I know I can't
figure it all out and discern the truth. It *should* be important to
everyone. But to my sorrow I have to say that my fear is that it is
*not* as important to the FBI or the government as you believe it is.
I really doubt that anyone in the FBI is going to end up being held
accountable for any of this. It has been too long, and as you say,
too much has been changed or lost or forgotten or whatever. I think
the truth and justice in this case will come in the next world rather
than this one. And I wish the world were not this way.
Monica
>
> - Show quoted text -
I hit a nerve didn't I? They've been going nuts all day. I have
always wondered and prayed for those other girls in the autopsies etc.
So at least one family knows of their girl. I was in Seattle applying
for a job. I had just finished my interview when word came from OSCRO
asking for help. There was a caravan leaving for WK. I jumped on it.
My parents only knew that I went to Seattle for a job interview. A TV
reporter came into WK from Seattle. She was a real pretty Indian lady.
I knew her. She interviewed the leadership etc. Before she left she
asked for my parents address. She said she was going to write to them
and tell them she saw me and I was okay. She did too, on the tv
station stationary. When we first got to Pine Ridge the locals told us
girls to be careful because many girls disappeared. If they found
their bodies at all they had been beaten, tortured, raped then killed.
There was some students from DQU. I became friends with them. Some of
their friends were bringing in food and medicine. They left Pine Ridge
but never made it in. There was a group of white students too. They
left Pine Ridge but never made it in. They didn't turn up in any
jails. I doubt if space aliens abducted them. So either the fbi,
marshalls, goons, bia police got them. But let's not talk about those
disappeared. Let's not look for them.
Monica
> On Mar 8, 2:52 pm, Monica <yano...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
It IS important to the federal government and the fbi. That is why
they are working so hard to cover everything up. They don't care at
all about the people they killed. But they don't want the public to
know of the atrocities they committed.
Arlo was set up and trapped by those he loved and trusted. He is
innocent. Yet he was thrown away.
We probably won't get justice in the amerikan just us system. But all
our fights have been against impossible odds since 1492. I'm hoping
that Obama will put the brakes on the fbi and cia. But that's what got
Kennedy killed.
You have no idea what the fbi is capable of. Sac joe trimbach wrote a
wordy account of the fbi at Pine Ridge. It is called the American
Indian Mafia. Two elves laid ground work for that. He was comparing
AIm to the mafia for years before. Our own Richard Two Elk wrote the
forward to the book. You think the fbi isn't involved on alt.native?
You think there aren't other cop types on here? There are so many
Indians that read this site but don't post. This is a good place to
get out and get information. But THEY don't want that to happen. They
want this story to quietly go away.
As for lisa, she will never shut up. She's nuts. She has no right to
speak about the faith of my people. She is white. Whites used to not
be allowed into our ceremonies. Our ceremonies were outlawed until
1978. My brother allowed whitse into his smokehouse. I told him not
to. Lisa is example that I was right. She thinks she has the right to
not only speak about our sacred faith but to PREACH to me and make
accusations about me. Everything is blood. You have to earn rights.
She will never be able to do that because she doesn't have the blood.
She is appropriating or stealing our faith. Pretending she knkows
about it. What lisa did was take what is sacred and holy to me and
bring it into the mundane, alt.native, and desecrate it.
Hope
>
> It IS important to the federal government and the fbi. That is why
> they are working so hard to cover everything up. They don't care at
> all about the people they killed. But they don't want the public to
> know of the atrocities they committed.
There are lots of secrets involved in this...and lots of secret
keepers. But the truth has a way of finally finding its way to the
surface, like water finding it's way through the cracks in the hardest
stone. Sometimes it takes longer than a lifetime. But inexorably it
gets there.
>
> Arlo was set up and trapped by those he loved and trusted. He is
> innocent. Yet he was thrown away.
>
> We probably won't get justice in the amerikan just us system. But all
> our fights have been against impossible odds since 1492. I'm hoping
> that Obama will put the brakes on the fbi and cia. But that's what got
> Kennedy killed.
IMO he is a very brave man to step into the Presidency at this time in
our history, with everything that's going on. I pray he lives through
it. No matter how hard he tries to do what he feels is right, things
are in too big a mess for everything to get fixed in four years, and
there are always going to be at least a dozen different groups furious
with him because *their* issue is not getting dealt with as fast as
they want, or because something is getting "taken away" from them to
put things in better balance.
>
> You have no idea what the fbi is capable of.
Probably not. But I think I would be more worried about the groups
that do not have such a high public profile, like the Black Ops
groups. What they don't want the public to know, the public doesn't
know, except maybe through some freak accident. We probably have no
idea of what goes on in the world while we sleep or go about our
little routines.
> Sac joe trimbach wrote a
> wordy account of the fbi at Pine Ridge. It is called the American
> Indian Mafia. Two elves laid ground work for that. He was comparing
> AIm to the mafia for years before. Our own Richard Two Elk wrote the
> forward to the book. You think the fbi isn't involved on alt.native?
> You think there aren't other cop types on here?
By involved, do you mean actively posting, or as some of those who
just read? I don't think we could know for sure, unless they left
their notes lying around somewhere. :-p They would hardly be overt
about it. So any reply I made would just be a guess. But since you
asked, I doubt they are paying someone to monitor this site 24/7. I
don't see what they would gain from it that is going to determine the
outcome of the trial or that could "bring down the FBI" or something
like that. I'm pretty sure there are *always* issues and situations
that the FBI is involved with, and which could hurt their public
profile is all the facts were known. They do deal with groups and
people who tend to be, shall we say, "newsworthy." Certainly there
have been many controversial things they've been involved in during
the past 30 years. I don't know how they could have dedicated agents
for all of them for years and years.
> There are so many
> Indians that read this site but don't post. This is a good place to
> get out and get information. But THEY don't want that to happen. They
> want this story to quietly go away.
Kinda hard to accomplish with a public trial and so many people
involved. And obviously they have not been able to shut down
alt.native or get everyone so discouraged that they go away and stop
reading and posting.
[...]
>
> What lisa did was take what is sacred and holy to me and
> bring it into the mundane, alt.native, and desecrate it.
Then perhaps it shouldn't be discussed further on alt.native. Doesn't
that further desecrate it? My personal opinion is that the Sacred is
present everywhere and in everything and everyone. But not everyone
shares that opinion, obviously. So if it is considered disrespectful
to discuss this area of your life, I won't discuss it...even with
you. Maybe if you and Lisa need to further discuss this issue you
could do so privately via email or something. That way the rest of
the posters and readers could stay out of this private matter, as
would be more respectful.
Monica
I don't want to talk with lisa privately and she doesn't know enough
to get it.
Monica
>
> By involved, do you mean actively posting, or as some of those who
> just read? I don't think we could know for sure, unless they left
> their notes lying around somewhere. :-p They would hardly be overt
> about it. So any reply I made would just be a guess. But since you
> asked, I doubt they are paying someone to monitor this site 24/7. I
> don't see what they would gain from it that is going to determine the
> outcome of the trial or that could "bring down the FBI" or something
> like that. I'm pretty sure there are *always* issues and situations
> that the FBI is involved with, and which could hurt their public
> profile is all the facts were known. They do deal with groups and
> people who tend to be, shall we say, "newsworthy." Certainly there
> have been many controversial things they've been involved in during
> the past 30 years. I don't know how they could have dedicated agents
> for all of them for years and years.
>
for key words. You will notice that when two elves wants to draw
attention to a thread he will post. Instead of saying "all of" he says
"allah." Now I've just called attention. I was talking on the phone
with a friend. I told her that I read an article that said the U.S.
hired the Israelis to monitor phone conversations and build a data
base of code words. My friend started yellling nonsensical words into
the phone. It was funny but maybe got us on a list somewhere.
Hope
>
> I don't want to talk with lisa privately and she doesn't know enough
> to get it.
I obviously don't know enough to get it. I don't have enough
information to start to build an understanding. You say it is all
about blood, but your brother and others who invite non-Indians must
not agree about that. So there must be differences of opinion even
within the different Indian communities. I would still like to know
the answer to these earlier questions of mine so that I have some
small understanding of the issue, but if you don't think it's
appropriate to discuss it that's cool. If questions about it are not
allowed, I am fine with that. But in that case I don't think it would
be respectful to Spirit for me to participate in a thread where the
only purpose is to criticize another person's spirituality.
Hope
>
> It's my understanding that there is a program that searches the web
> for key words. You will notice that when two elves wants to draw
> attention to a thread he will post. Instead of saying "all of" he says
> "allah." Now I've just called attention.
Well, that's a good point. I know there are programs that search key
words. I just recently saw something on TV about a program that does
that as part of an economic forecast for investment companies. I
think it's spooky because it has such a good record of being correct.
It even predicted a big hit to the market in September, 2001, months
before the attack. And it predicts something big for 2012...like so
many other "programs" from long before there were computers.
But it was a TV show about predictions throughout history, so it's
possible things were sensationalized a bit toward that end. I didn't
look into it any deeper, by verifying that story from any other
sources.
> I was talking on the phone
> with a friend. I told her that I read an article that said the U.S.
> hired the Israelis to monitor phone conversations and build a data
> base of code words. My friend started yellling nonsensical words into
> the phone. It was funny but maybe got us on a list somewhere.
That's one list I would not want to be on! I am not a techie in any
sense of the word, but I don't know how they could monitor all phone
conversations in this country. Based on the number of people I see
with a cell phone permanently glued to their ear, I think that would
probably take more people than Israel has! *LOL* And what about
texts? I read the other day that teens don't consider it uncommon to
have 10,000 texts a month! When do they sleep??