Troy, Dardanus, Iasius
Wayne B. Hewitt
In article <01bd9a4d$24342b80$9c003bcb@cyrus>, "Quentin David Jones"
<quen...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>The Trojan War (as told by Homer anyway)
>almost certainly didn't happen (Troy was
>too small for the great armies mentioned
>and no evidence of a great battle was found)
>
This is true if one considers only the mound of Hysarlik as the complete
city. However, recent excavations have suggested that 'The City On The
Hill' may have been only the palace or citadel; at the bottom of the hill
there was far more to the city. I expect someone may have the latest on
this?
[ ... ]
>
>The Idea is more important than the Evidence,
>consider the similarity to the Jesus problem -
>so many millions believe so strongly in things
>for which there is little or no proof.
>People _want_ to believe in Troy and the War
>(perhaps _because_ we have been talking and
>singing about it for 3 millenia).
This is true, probably because good literature embodies the quintessence
of human existance, regardless of the era. I support the continued
teaching of the 'Classics'.
>
[ ... ]
>Plato was right, the plane of Ideas is the real
>place - our world is a place of shadows and shifting
>illusions - physicality is not what makes reality.
>
>Quentin David Jones
I am no Neo-Platonist, far from it, but judging from many of the posts I
have seen I must agree that SOME are far more attached to their ideas than
they are to reality.
--
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Quentin David Jones
The Trojan War (as told by Homer anyway)
almost certainly didn't happen (Troy was
too small for the great armies mentioned
and no evidence of a great battle was found)
But amazing how the myth (meaning archetype
not fiction) lives on - in fact the other
day Xena took part in the Trojan war and this
lead to a wonderful little experience discussing
Homer and Troy with my little 9 year old girl
(probably something the two of us have done
many times over recent lives all the way
back to when having an education meant knowing
Homer.)
The Idea is more important than the Evidence,
consider the similarity to the Jesus problem -
so many millions believe so strongly in things
for which there is little or no proof.
People _want_ to believe in Troy and the War
(perhaps _because_ we have been talking and
singing about it for 3 millenia)
Actually the connection with the Jesus story
is even stronger - consider that Iasius (the
Son of Zeus by Electra the mortal virgin, who
was killed but resurrected to ascend to the
side of the Father - this Iasius was a central
figure of the Ancient Mystery religion) on whom
Jesus story was certainly at least partly based,
was the brother of Dardanus who founded Troy!
Thus two brothers Dardanus and Iasius (or Iasion)
are born of God (Zeus) and one founds the great
city of Troy, the other brings the word of god
to humans in the mysteries.
Millenia later, these two stories are still every
day knowledge in our cultures (meaning the stream
springing from Britain, Rome, Greece, Egypt,
(Atlantis?)...
Doug Weller
In article <whewitt-1706...@whewitt.extern.ucsd.edu>, on Wed, 17
Jun 1998 18:37:04 -0700, whe...@ucsd.edu said...
> In article <01bd9a4d$24342b80$9c003bcb@cyrus>, "Quentin David Jones"
> <quen...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> >almost certainly didn't happen (Troy was
> >too small for the great armies mentioned
> >and no evidence of a great battle was found)
> >
>
> city. However, recent excavations have suggested that 'The City On The
> Hill' may have been only the palace or citadel; at the bottom of the hill
> there was far more to the city. I expect someone may have the latest on
> this?
>
>
the Trojan War, and you won't find many archaeologists claiming that
Homer's Troy has been found.
--
Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions to:sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Requests To: arch-mo...@ucl.ac.uk
Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for details
Carrie Faulk
<quen...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> This is true if one considers only the mound of
Hysarlik as the complete
> city. However, recent excavations have suggested
that 'The City On The
> Hill' may have been only the palace or citadel;
at the bottom of the hill
> there was far more to the city. I expect someone
may have the latest on
> this?
>
>
Yes and no. More to the city, perhaps. But still
no evidence at all of
the Trojan War, and you won't find many
archaeologists claiming that
Homer's Troy has been found.
--
Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
Submissions
to:sci-archaeol...@medieval.org
Requests To: arch-mo...@ucl.ac.uk
Co-owner UK-Schools mailing list: email me for
details
-------------------------------
Am I not remembering correctly that another group
of archaeologists later found a possible Troy
under
Schliemann's (sorry if spelled wrong) site about
three layers of settlements down in the strata?
If so, I've been remiss in the "legends" that I
had
checked off as solved. Silly, since the "old
things'
keep cropping back up with each generation of
questers,
--Carrie
Carl KICE Brown
"Quentin David Jones" quen...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> > >The Trojan War (as told by Homer anyway)
> > >almost certainly didn't happen (Troy was
> > >too small for the great armies mentioned
> > >and no evidence of a great battle was found)
> > >
whe...@ucsd.edu said...
> > This is true if one considers only the mound of Hysarlik as the complete
> > city. However, recent excavations have suggested that 'The City On The
> > Hill' may have been only the palace or citadel; at the bottom of the hill
> > there was far more to the city. I expect someone may have the latest on
> > this?
> >
Doug Weller wrote:
> Yes and no. More to the city, perhaps. But still no evidence at all of
> the Trojan War, and you won't find many archaeologists claiming that
> Homer's Troy has been found.
>
The major evidence for such a war/battle still appears to be the Iliad
itself. It has been argued, from textual evidence, that certain
passages, mainly comprising lists such as the list of Achaian ships,
may have dated, without much change over the centuries, from
Minoan-Mycenean times. Such lists, of course, could have originally
been composed for and found in other contexts than a war against Troy.
--
"As no two people see the same
view along the Way, all trips
from here to there are imaginary;
all truth is a tale I am telling myself."
------ Brion Gysin in "The Process"
Kice Brown
Lone Tree & Iowa City
Chrisso Boulis
Quentin David Jones (quen...@iinet.net.au) wrote:
: The Trojan War (as told by Homer anyway)
: almost certainly didn't happen (Troy was
: too small for the great armies mentioned
: and no evidence of a great battle was found)
The picture of Troy is still unfolding. The German-American
team is still working on the site and has found some very
interesting new information. (Brian Rose and Korpfmann (sp?)
have both given reports of the work at Troy at U Penn's museum
in recent years)
The site consists of a hill on a ridge overlooking a river plain.
The "traditional" archaeological Troy is located on the hill.
This appears to have been just the citadel / palace area. The
team has found the fortification line of a lower city on the ridge.
This is consistent with several Mycenean (i.e. Tiryns) and Hittite
cities. There are no current plains for excavation of the lower
city though several deep trenches were made. The "fun" part of the
survey was that the Late Bronze Age cemetary that Blegan discovered
"at some distance" from the hill, is now located right outside a
gate of the lower city.
The trial trenches are extremely significant in that thay confirm
that the site (parts as opposed to the whole) were continuously
occupied from the early bronze age through the Roman era. What
appears to have happened is that the Iron Age settlement on the
hill was leveled when Alexander the Great rededictated / refounded
the city. He called it Troy because the people who were living
there called it Troy just as their ancestors had.
With respect to the Homeric version of the Trojan War: that is
up in the air. Homer did take an artistic license and fill in
"iron age" description for the war, though a few bits of bronze
age information (i.e. boar's tuck helmet) do crop up.
And some views of Greek Mythology have changed dramatically with
the decipherment of Linear B. Only a few of the Olympians were
believed to have extended back into the Bronze Ages; some
such as Hephaistos, Ares and Dionysis were believed to have been
introduced during the dark and iron ages. Surpise, All three
are named in the tablets, as a Paion and Enyaulios who are
still-functioning "ancient" gods in Homer. The latter's positions
are taken over by Apollo and Ares respectively in classical times.
Likewise, translations of the Hittite royal correspondance
mentions several individuals known from the Homeric stories as well
as references to some sort of conflict. (This is from a lecture
a heard at the Bryn Mawr Troy Symposium about 10 years ago).
C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
Zachary C. McCullough
Chrisso Boulis wrote in message +ADw-6mbhlu+ACQ-slt+ACQ-1+AEA-netnews.upenn.edu+AD4-...
+ADw-snip+AD4-
+AD4-And some views of Greek Mythology have changed dramatically with
+AD4-the decipherment of Linear B.
+ADw-snip+AD4-
+AD4-C.E.S. Boulis
+AD4-UPMAA
Would you be so kind as to explain a little of what Linear B is?
thanks,
Z
Doug Weller
In article <6mbaf7$l...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, on Thu, 18 Jun 1998
10:08:26 -0500, Carri...@worldnet.att.net said...
>
> Am I not remembering correctly that another group
> of archaeologists later found a possible Troy
> under
> Schliemann's (sorry if spelled wrong) site about
> three layers of settlements down in the strata?
>
other possibilities, but none definitely 'Homer's Troy' -- if indeed
there ever was such a thing!
See http://www.indiana.edu/~classics/aegean/R27.html
robert place
> believed to have extended back into the Bronze Ages; some
> such as Hephaistos, Ares and Dionysis were believed to have been
> introduced during the dark and iron ages. Surpise, All three
> are named in the tablets, as a Paion and Enyaulios who are
> still-functioning "ancient" gods in Homer. The latter's positions
> are taken over by Apollo and Ares respectively in classical times.
>
> Likewise, translations of the Hittite royal correspondance
> mentions several individuals known from the Homeric stories as well
> as references to some sort of conflict. (This is from a lecture
> a heard at the Bryn Mawr Troy Symposium about 10 years ago).
>
> C.E.S. Boulis
> UPMAA
It's interesting that Homer didn't even write about Troy.
Chris Camfield
Linear B was the writing system used by the Mycenean Greeks for their
records in the late Bronze Age. It seems to have been an adaptation
of what we call "Linear A", which was used for records by the Minoan
civilization prior to Crete's occupation by the Myceneans.
Linear B was untranslatable until the 1950s when Michael Ventris, an
English architect with a background in Greek and cryptography,
discovered that Linear B recorded an archaic form of Greek. (He'd
originally thought it was some other language and was comparing the
script's structure with Greek just as an experiment or test.)
The Linear B records we have are clay tablets that were accidentally
baked in large fires - presumably when the site they were in was
destroyed. (Pylos, for instance.) So we have no literature, if there
was any, but rather inventories kept of all sorts of goods, which
include some references to temple lands and deities.
Chris C.
Count Pierre Bezuhov
Zachary C. McCullough wrote:
>Would you be so kind as to explain a little of what Linear B is?
You'll get a real definition from any encyclopedia.
Basically it is a text found in Mycenean Greek archaeological sites in
Brone Age Greece and Crete (and perhaps elsewhere along the Aegean but
I'm not aware of anywhere). It has been shown to be of an ancient
Greek language. All of the existing examples are lists of items,
presumably accounting documents.
Based on recent findings it is likely to come from a proto-byblic
hieroglyphic script, but that's a whole different matter.
Chris Camfield
On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:34:47 -0400, robert place
<eca...@mymail.emcyber.com> wrote:
[chop]
>It's interesting that Homer didn't even write about Troy.
TROLL!!
CC
Curmudgeon
Doug Weller wrote:
>
> In article <6mbaf7$l...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, on Thu, 18 Jun 1998
> 10:08:26 -0500, Carri...@worldnet.att.net said...
> >
> > Am I not remembering correctly that another group
> > of archaeologists later found a possible Troy
> > under
> > Schliemann's (sorry if spelled wrong) site about
> > three layers of settlements down in the strata?
> >
> 'Schliemann's Troy' has been written off as a possible Troy. There are
> other possibilities, but none definitely 'Homer's Troy' -- if indeed
> there ever was such a thing!
>
> See http://www.indiana.edu/~classics/aegean/R27.html
>
Troy I, followed by Troy II. It is Troy II that Schliemann believed to
be Homer's Troy because of the finds of gold at that level and signs of
destruction by fire. Troy II is much too early to be Homer's Troy. It
flourished in the Early Bronze Age, and then perished. The site on
Hisarlik appears to have become a bit of a backwater until the advent of
Troy VI, which lasted around 500 years, perished (probably) around the
middle of the 13th C. BCE, and appears to have been quite wealthy,
indeed, judging by the architecture and resources needed to construct
its ashlar walls.
I agree with Doug that Homer's Troy has no perfect match, but the last
incarnation of Troy VI (Troy VIh) appears to come closer than the
others, for the following reasons:
1. Homer says that Troy had slanted (battered) walls which, as far as I
know, appear nowhere else in the Aegean world during this time except at
Hisarlik's Troy VI.
2. Homer calls Troy's walls "beautiful," a term, I believe, he applies
to the walls of no other city (Maybe some of you Homer people can help
me out here and tell me if I'm wrong. I like the Iliad, but don't want
to reread the whole thing to find out if I'm right.) The citadel walls
of Troy VI are almost entirely of ashlar construction, with offsets
every 10 meters or so to avoid sharp corners. The overall effect would
have been quite beautiful, and there is no other LBA Aegean settlement,
of which I am aware, that sports ashlar wells except in specific places
(Mycenae, for instance, uses ashlar construction around the Lion's Gate,
probably for added strength at that vulnerable point.)
3. Homer makes a very big deal of Troy's towers. Towers were very rare
in Greek cities of the day. In fact, I can think of no examples.
4. Homer says that Troy's west wall was the weakest part. The west
wall of the citadel at Hisarlik is of older construction than the other
parts of the wall, and is weakest at that point.
5. According to Homer, there is a spring outside Troy's west wall. No
such spring exists near the citadel, but there was certainly one outside
the west wall of New Illium, which was built upon the site much later.
Did the wall of Troy VI's lower city follow the line of the one for New
Illium? Such a thing seems possible, and even likely, if Troy VI's
lower city did, indeed, sport a wall. I have exchanged E-mails with
some of the excavators on Korfmann's project, and there does not appear
to be solid evidence for a lower city wall in the LBA. However, such
evidence does not mean that all traces of such a wall have not
disappeared.
All told, Homer's description of Troy has remarkable similarities to
Troy VIh, considering (as I have been told by an archeologist) that the
walls of Troy VI would have been almost entirely below ground in Homer's
day. He couldn't have seen them.
This proves nothing, of course, except that Homer's tale, while
certainly wrong in many particulars, may well have recounted a real
siege at a real place. Or, it may not, but speculation is fun.
Stuart O'Steen
Boulder, Colorado
Jane Richards
Ilium by the Romans----9 layers have yet been found by archeologists
and the work is on-going.----'Troy' 1,11,and 111(Maritime Troia Culture)
has , as yet, been dated from the first arrivals, aprox. toward the
third millennium B.C.E., developing into one of the earliest centers of
bronze craftmanship.---Troy 11,although at first thought to be a
successor to Troy 1, has now been discovered to be a splendid citadel
with gov't and religious bldgs. and existing contemporaneously with Troy
1.Schliemanns' discovery of Priams' Gold is from this , or the following
period(actually 1,200 years before thr destruction of the city connected
to the Homeric epics.---Between 2480 and 2420 B.C.E. the citidal was
destroyed by fire,but the same inhabitants lived there untill aprox.
2300. Most of the population left the place deserted( earthquake?), and
a ruin.----Troy IV,V (Anatolian Troia Culture (2000-1750 B.C.E.) New
peoples origination from Anatolia settled here. Had a pretty hard time
existing-Troy IV showed archiolgical evidence of being destroyed by
fire at least 7 times, and the animal bones show they had very little
meat in their diet--or difficulty finding meat. By 1900 conditions seem
to have improved , but left the city bt 1750.-----The remains of the
city most likely Homers' Troy was built by new occupants (1700-1180).
Between 1250 and 1230 extensive damage from fire, earthquake,war social
upheaval or a combination thereof , smaller bldgs. were erected and
these were utterly destroyed around 1180 B.C.E. with evidence showing an
attack from outside the city. The history of building and rebuilding
goes on through the ancient historical calandar by many different
peoples originating from Greece. the Balkans,Rome and Byzantine. Rome
honored Troy as the great city of Ilium and built a huge "mythological
park" there claiming Troy as the "Mother of Rome" ( from Virgils'
"Aeneid", they claimed ancestory from the hero Aenaes. ---In 325 A.D.
Constantine planned to make the city his Byzantine capitol, but decided
on Constantinople. ---jThe remains of 'Troy are also intertwinned with
other civilizations that were in their contemporous worlds,depending on
which level you are talking of including the Hittites, and, at one time
controlled the entrance to the Black Sea (Dardanelles).--------Jane
Chrisso Boulis
bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net> <MPG.ff386cd...@news.demon.co.uk>
<358A77...@compuserv.com> Distribution:
Curmudgeon (cum...@compuserv.com) wrote:
: I agree with Doug that Homer's Troy has no perfect match, but the last
: incarnation of Troy VI (Troy VIh) appears to come closer than the
: others, . . .
Likewise Troy VII, of which little was preserved on the hill when
Schlieman arrived, and even less when he left.
There have been surveys of the region and no one has found a
suitable alternative to Hisarlik.
: 5. According to Homer, there is a spring outside Troy's west wall. No
: such spring exists near the citadel, but there was certainly one outside
: the west wall of New Illium, which was built upon the site much later.
: Did the wall of Troy VI's lower city follow the line of the one for New
: Illium? Such a thing seems possible, and even likely, if Troy VI's
: lower city did, indeed, sport a wall. I have exchanged E-mails with
: some of the excavators on Korfmann's project, and there does not appear
: to be solid evidence for a lower city wall in the LBA. However, such
: evidence does not mean that all traces of such a wall have not
: disappeared.
Korfmann's arial infrared photos showed what appeared to be the line
of a "massive" wall following the line of the ridge. The question
at the time was "just how much of the wall survived or was this
just the surviving trench line. Blegan's cemetery was directly
outside one of the gaps/gates in the line. I know that they have
sunk trenches well inside the line and found some bronze age material.
Have they done any work along the line of the wall?
: This proves nothing, of course, except that Homer's tale, while
: certainly wrong in many particulars, may well have recounted a real
: siege at a real place. Or, it may not, but speculation is fun.
I would add that while many of the Bronze Age Archaeologists I know
accept Hissarlik as Troy, they will also state the events of the
"war" were probably expanded on greatly.
C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
Chrisso Boulis
Count Pierre Bezuhov (psz...@smartt.com) wrote:
: Zachary C. McCullough wrote:
: >Would you be so kind as to explain a little of what Linear B is?
Well, there have already been two very good descriptions so I won't
add to that, but will add that buried in the inventory and accounting
lists are offerings to various Greek Gods including most of the
12 Olympians. I recall Zeus, Athena, Ares, Hephaistos, Dionysis,
Demeter, Aphrodite (though the spelling is a bit different and therefore
puts a wrench in the "born of foam" etymology of her name). Also
Enyaulios and Paion. It's not a complete list, just what I can
remember off the top of my head. Several of the Olympians have
been given post-Bronze Age foreign origins in several standard
mythology textbooks (pre 1950). This "new" info changes the picture
a bit.
C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
Doug Weller
In article <6mejkv$cpu$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, on 19 Jun 1998 21:02:23 GMT,
cbo...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu said...
>
> There have been surveys of the region and no one has found a
> suitable alternative to Hisarlik.
>
>
Review, Odyssey? That has something about an alternative. I haven't read
it though.
Jayson Kelly
Quentin David Jones wrote:
[...]
> consider that Iasius (the Son of Zeus by Electra
> the mortal virgin, who was killed but resurrected
> to ascend to the side of the Father - this Iasius
> was a central figure of the Ancient Mystery
> religion) on whom Jesus story was certainly at
> least partly based, was the brother of Dardanus who
> founded Troy!
>
> Thus two brothers Dardanus and Iasius (or Iasion)
> are born of God (Zeus) and one founds the great
> city of Troy, the other brings the word of god
> to humans in the mysteries.
I have little on Iasius/Iasion. The mysteries you refer to are presumably
derived from Demeter. Would anyone care to elucidate further on this?
Regards
JK
Quentin David Jones
Greetings,
Jayson Kelly <jke...@clear.net.nz> wrote in
article <358B101D...@clear.net.nz>...
> I have little on Iasius/Iasion. The mysteries
> you refer to are presumably derived from Demeter.
> Would anyone care to elucidate further on this?
> Regards
> JK
The source for the Iasius theory of the origin
of the Jesus story is "The Other Jesus" by
David Doleshall, you can get a sample copy at
http://home.pacbell.net/gailk/iasius.html
although he's not the first to note the connection
with the mysteries, he _is_ the first AFAIK to make
many of the specific connections in his very
interesting book.
I'll briefly summarise his thesis, but I thoroughly
recommend reading the sample chapters.
Anyway the Ancient Mysteries were the dominant religion
of the Roman pre-Christian world. The Mysteries were
originally available only to the elite, yet became
more widespread towards Empire times. They took the
form of serious, elaborate rituals often lasting a
week and requiring difficult preparation and harsh
tests. The central core of the Mysteries was so bound
with secrecy that even now it is difficult to be sure,
but it appears the candidate went through a very
spiritually moving experience - perhaps an out-of-body
experience, perhaps a drug-induced trance, perhaps
merely a dramatic smoke-and-mirrors type of magic (and
perhaps a figure of light?). The mysteries were held
extremely sacredand secret, more than even the Church
or the Craft in our times, more like, say, a pharaonic
consecration.
Now the Mysteries usually centered around the story
of a mother-goddess figure, often Ceres/Demeter
(mother/fertility archetypes etc.) and her consort
or lover. Remember that these gods were not seen as
mumbo-jumbo, but as the actual real rulers of the world.
So according to early myth Zeus had two sons by Electra
the mortal virgin (E-lectra = not bedded): Iasion/Iasius
and Dardanus. Dardanus went on to found Troy, and Zeus
also wanted great things for Iasius, so he had him
institute the Mysteries among humans, thus Iasius founded
the Samothracian Mysteries, the mother-lodge. Orpheus,
Hercules, and Dionysus are all of this line. In fact,
Hercules and Jason were considered successful because
"these gods appeared to them".
The standard story has Iasius seducing Demeter in a thrice
plowed field (?) and Zeus kills him with a thunderbolt for
his audacity with the goddess. It appears that in the
Mysteries the central revelation was that Iasius rose from
the dead to sit beside his father Zeus (see Theocritus
below).
Etymologically Iasius = Iasion = Iasus (just like
William = Will = Bill = Billy) and Doleshall posits the
Hebrew Jehoshua being transliterated to Jesus to claim
the cachet attached to the name Iasius.
So we have Iasius:
. a son of god,
. born of a mortal virgin (known for her chastity),
. founds a new religion
. dies a tragic death,
. ascends to be beside his father,
and many other fascinating similarities with Jesus.
He does not claim Jesus to have never existed (nor do I)
but that the original history is much augmented with
details from the Iasius story.
Consider that Iasius would have been common knowledge
among the Roman ruling elite (many would have been initiated
into the secrets of the Mysteries of Iasius, Iacchus, or
Dionysus the student of Iasius, or other figures all
sprung from the line of Iasius) but little would be said
or written openly. Towards the end of the Republic,
the secrets were starting to leak a little, and the
broad outlines perhaps rumoured about.
So when Paul promised openly to teach all and sundry of the
Mysteries of Jesus this was seen by the common man as a ticket
to an elite club, somewhat like Freemasonry, but much closer
to the real thing - an initiate was a friend of the gods
(imagine even if you can't believe, what it must have been
like to an initiate who REALLY BELIEVED that (like Xena, say)
he could call on his God and sometimes... the God would
actually directly appear in answer - wow!).
May not sound like much now, but back then it was the best
prize on the planet (of course the path of real initiation
is ever open to the aspirant (and is still the planet's
prize), but that's another story). [some QuentinJ creeping
in among the Doleshall there]
What we call Christianity now is far different from the early
forms which seemed far closer to the mystery rituals (ie pagan
mystery rituals) and Doleshall points out the connection with
the Areopagus (the religious court which dealt with violation
of the secrets - death was the original penalty for revealing
the inner secrets - Paul was 'hauled' up before the Areopagus
and had to leave town suddenly (Athens)).
I think this work is a major breakthrough in the Jesus problem
(if anyone would like to send me the whole book I would
appreciate it, I am not stealing, I sent $14.95, International
bank draft cost me > $30 local :-( and after early a month I
have heard nothing, and they cannot be easily contacted (no
e-mail contact!) and have not answered what attempts I have
made).
I include here some references to Iasius/Iasion below, mostly
from the Perseus Project (amazing on-line searchable classics)
If you have Homer or Hesiod or Ovid or Diodorus or Theocritus
at home (well, hey, I do!) check them out and you may find
that Iasius and Iasion and even Iasus _are_ sometimes
interchangeable. Diodorus Book 5 is hard to find - try
'The Ancient Mysteries' by Meyer 0-06-065576-3 (or Loeb
classics).
Quentin David Jones
Southern Winter Solstice 98
Appendix: References to Iasius/Iasion
and related issues in the classics,
plus notes, from Perseus Project.
------------------------------------------
Homer Odyssey 5.125
[125] Thus too, when fair-tressed Demeter, yielding to her passion, lay in
love with Iasion in the thrice-ploughed fallow land, Zeus was not long
without knowledge thereof, but smote him with his bright thunder-bolt and
slew him. And even so again do ye now begrudge me, O ye gods, that a mortal
man should abide with me.
Hesiod Theogony 970
Demeter, bright goddess, was joined in sweet love [970] with the hero
Iasion in a thrice-ploughed fallow in the rich land of Crete, and bore
Plutus, a kindly god who goes everywhere over land and the sea's wide back,
and he makes rich the man who finds him and into whose hands he comes,
bestowing great wealth upon him.
Homeric Hymns 2.470-
[470] So spake Rhea. And rich-crowned Demeter did not refuse but
straightway made fruit to spring up from the rich lands, so that the whole
wide earth was laden with leaves and flowers. Then she went, and to the
kings who deal justice, Triptolemus and Diocles, the horse-driver, [475]
and to doughty Eumolpus and Celeus, leader of the people, she showed the
conduct of her rites and taught them all her mysteries, to Triptolemus and
Polyxeinus and Diocles also, --awful mysteries which no one may in any way
transgress or pry into or utter, for deep awe of the gods checks the voice.
[480] Happy is he among men upon earth who has seen these mysteries; but he
who is uninitiate and who has no part in them, never has lot of like good
things once he is dead, down in the darkness and gloom.
But when the bright goddess had taught them all, they went to Olympus to
the gathering of the other gods. [485] And there they dwell beside Zeus who
delights in thunder, awful and reverend goddesses. Right blessed is he
among men on earth whom they freely love: soon they do send Plutus as guest
to his great house, Plutus who gives wealth to mortal men.
Theocritus. Tr. Robert Wells, The LoveSongs
(Idyll 2, 2nd last stanza)
Sweet girl, I envy Iasion bound
On the journey that unillumined ones may not take
Ovid Metamorphoses 9.682.more
[680]Aurora wept because her husband had white hair; and Ceres then
bewailed the age of her Iasion, grey and stricken old;
Strabo Geography 7 f49
[7.f49] Iasion and Dardanus, two brothers, used to live in Samothrace. But
when Iasion was struck by a thunderbolt because of his sin against Demeter,
Dardanus sailed away from Samothrace, went and took up his abode at the
foot of Mount Ida, calling the city Dardania, and taught the Trojans the
Samothracian Mysteries.
Pseudo-Apollodorus Library 3.9.2
[3.9.2] Lycurgus had sons, Ancaeus, Epochus, Amphidamas, and Iasus,1 by
Cleophyle or Eurynome. And Amphidamas had a son Melanion and a daughter
Antimache, whom Eurystheus married. And Iasus had a daughter Atalanta2 by
Clymene, daughter of Minyas. This Atalanta was exposed by her father,
because he desired male children; and a she bear came often and gave her
suck, till hunters found her and brought her up among themselves. Grown to
womanhood, Atalanta kept herself a virgin, and hunting in the wilderness
she remained always under arms. The centaurs Rhoecus and Hylaeus tried to
force her, but were shot down and killed by her. She went moreover with the
chiefs to hunt the Calydonian boar, and at the games held in honor of
Pelias she wrestled with
n1. Compare Paus. 8.4.10, who mentions only the first two of these
four sons.
n2. For the story of Atalanta, and how her suitor won her by the bait
of the golden apples, see Theocritus ii i.40-42; Hyginus, Fab. 185; Ov.
Met. 10.560-680; Serv. Verg. A. 3.113; Scriptores rerum mythicarum Latini,
ed. Bode, i. pp. 14, 91 (First Vatican Mythographer 39; Second Vatican
Mythographer 47). As Apollodorus points out, there was a difference of
opinion as to the name of Atalanta's father. According to Callimachus, Hymn
to Artemis 215 and the First and Second Vatican Mythographers (Scriptores
rerum mythicarum Latini, ed. Bode, i. pp. 54, 124), he was Iasius;
according to Ael., Var. Hist. xiii.1, he was Iasion. Prop. i.1.10 seems to
agree with Apollodorus that her father was Iasus, for he calls Atalanta by
the patronymic Iasis.
Pseudo-Apollodorus Library 3.12.1
[3.12.1] Electra, daughter of Atlas, had two sons, Iasion and Dardanus, by
Zeus.1 Now Iasion loved Demeter, and in an attempt to defile the goddess he
was killed by a thunderbolt.2
n1. This account of the parentage of Iasion had the authority of Hellanicus
(Scholiast on Hom. Od. v.125). Compare Diod. 5.48.2.
n2. Compare Conon 21; Strab. 7 Fr. 50, ed. Meineke; Hyginus, Ast. ii.4. A
different turn is given to the story by Homer, who represents the lovers
meeting in a thrice-ploughed field (Hom. Od. 5.125-128). To the same effect
Hes. Th. 969-974 says that the thrice-ploughed field where they met was in
a fertile district of Crete, and that Wealth was born as the fruit of their
love. Compare Diod. 5.77.1ff.; Hyginus, Fab. 270. The Scholiast on Hom. Od.
v.125, attempts to rationalize the myth by saying that Iasion was the only
man who preserved seed-corn after the deluge.
Vergil Aeneid 3.246.williams
There is a land the roving Greeks have named
[240] Hesperia. It is a storied realm made mighty by great wars and
fruitful land.Oenotrians had it, and their sons, 't is said, have called it
Italy, a chieftain's name to a whole region given. That land alone
[245] our true abode can be; for Dardanus was cradled there, and old
Iasius, their blood the oldest of our ancient line. Arise! go forth and
cheer thy father gray with the glad tidings! Bid him doubt no more!
[250] Ausonia seek and Corythus; for Jove denies this Cretan realm to thine
and thee."
Conington Commentary on Vergil's Aeneid 3.168
168. The natural meaning of the words would seem to be that Iasius was the
father of Dardanus, and the ultimate progenitor of the Trojan race. No
tradition however appears to favour this view: and Virg. himself in 7. 219
apparently follows the Homeric story (Il. 20. 215), which makes Dardanus
the son of Zeus. The legends vary (see Dict. Biog. Dardanus, Iasion): but
those which assert a connexion between Dardanus and Iasion or Iasius make
them brothers. This also might be reconciled with the text, which would
then mean that the brothers sprung from Italy, and that Iasius, one of
them, was the father of the Trojans. Here again however we should be at
issue with the legends, and with Virg.'s language elsewhere, which speak of
Dardanus as the author of the race, Iasius having settled, not in Phrygia,
but in Samothrace. If then we wish to make Virgil consistent with himself,
and with the line of tradition which he seems to have followed, we must
suppose him to use `pater' rather vaguely, and to intend `a quo' to refer
to Dardanus. But the language is certainly against this; and those who
prefer to consider that he has attributed to Iasius what is elsewhere
attributed to Dardanus may perhaps fortify themselves by appealing to 7.
208, where not Iasius but Dardanus is said to have penetrated into
Samothrace.
Pseudo-Apollodorus Library 3.9.2
[3.9.2] Lycurgus had sons, Ancaeus, Epochus, Amphidamas, and Iasus,1
n2. As Apollodorus points out, there was a difference of opinion as to the
name of Atalanta's father. According to Callimachus, Hymn to Artemis 215
and the First and Second Vatican Mythographers (Scriptores rerum mythicarum
Latini, ed. Bode, i. pp. 54, 124), he was Iasius; according to Ael., Var.
Hist. xiii.1, he was Iasion. Prop. i.1.10 seems to agree with Apollodorus
that her father was Iasus, for he calls Atalanta by the patronymic Iasis.
Herodotus Histories 2.51.1-
[2.51.1] These customs, then, and others besides, which I shall indicate,
were taken by the Greeks from the Egyptians. It was not so with the
ithyphallic images of Hermes; the production of these came from the
Pelasgians, from whom the Athenians were the first Greeks to take it, and
then handed it on to others. [2.51.2] For the Athenians were then already
counted as Greeks when the Pelasgians came to live in the land with them
and thereby began to be considered as Greeks. Whoever has been initiated
into the rites of the Cabeiri, which the Samothracians learned from the
Pelasgians and now practice, understands what my meaning is. [2.51.3]
Samothrace was formerly inhabited by those Pelasgians who came to live
among the Athenians, and it is from them that the Samothracians take their
rites. [2.51.4] The Athenians, then, were the first Greeks to make
ithyphallic images of Hermes, and they did this because the Pelasgians
taught them. The Pelasgians told a certain sacred tale about this, which is
set forth in the Samothracian mysteries.
Herodotus Histories 8.65.1-
[8.65.1] Dicaeus son of Theocydes, an Athenian exile who had become
important among the Medes, said that at the time when the land of Attica
was being laid waste by Xerxes' army and there were no Athenians in the
country, he was with Demaratus the Lacedaemonian on the Thriasian plain and
saw advancing from Eleusis a cloud of dust as if raised by the feet of
about thirty thousand men. They marvelled at what men might be raising such
a cloud of dust and immediately heard a cry. The cry seemed to be the "
Iacchus" of the mysteries, [8.65.2] and when Demaratus, ignorant of the
rites of Eleusis, asked him what was making this sound, Dicaeus said,
"Demaratus, there is no way that some great disaster will not befall the
king's army. Since Attica is deserted, it is obvious that this voice is
divine and comes from Eleusis to help the Athenians and their allies.
[8.65.3] If it descends upon the Peloponnese, the king himself and his army
on the mainland will be endangered. If, however, it turns towards the ships
at Salamis, the king will be in danger of losing his fleet. [8.65.4] Every
year the Athenians observe this festival for the Mother and the Maiden, and
any Athenian or other Hellene who wishes is initiated. The voice which you
hear is the ` Iacchus' they cry at this festival." To this Demaratus
replied, "Keep silent and tell this to no one else. [8.65.5] If these words
of yours are reported to the king, you will lose your head, and neither I
nor any other man will be able to save you, so be silent. The gods will see
to the army." [8.65.6] Thus he advised, and after the dust and the cry came
a cloud, which rose aloft and floated away towards Salamis to the camp of
the Hellenes. In this way they understood that Xerxes' fleet was going to
be destroyed. Dicaeus son of Theocydes used to say this, appealing to
Demaratus and others as witnesses.
Pausanias Description of Greece 1.2.4
[1.2.4] On entering the city there is a building for the preparation of the
processions, which are held in some cases every year, in others at longer
intervals. Hard by is a temple of Demeter, with images of the goddess
herself and of her daughter, and of Iacchus holding a torch. On the wall,
in Attic characters, is written that they are works of Praxiteles. Not far
from the temple is Poseidon on horseback, hurling a spear against the giant
Polybotes, concerning whom is prevalent among the Coans the story about the
promontory of Chelone. But the inscription of our time assigns the statue
to another, and not to Poseidon. From the gate to the Cerameicus there are
porticoes, and in front of them brazen statues of such as had some title to
fame, both men and women.
Plutarch Alcibiades 34.3
[34.3] Ever since Deceleia had been fortified, and the enemy, by their
presence there, commanded the approaches to Eleusis, the festal rite had
been celebrated with no splendor at all, being conducted by sea.
Sacrifices, choral dances, and many of the sacred ceremonies usually held
on the road, when Iacchus is conducted forth from Athens to Eleusis, had of
necessity been omitted.
Plutarch Themistocles 15.1
[15.1] At this stage of the struggle they say that a great light flamed out
from Eleusis, and an echoing cry filled the Thriasian plain down to the
sea, as of multitudes of men together conducting the mystic Iacchus in
procession.
Strabo Geography 10.3.10
[10.3.10] And on this account Plato, and even before his time the
Pythagoreians, called philosophy music;1 and they say that the universe is
constituted in accordance with harmony,2 assuming that every form of music
is the work of the gods. And in this sense, also, the Muses are goddesses,
and Apollo is leader of the Muses, and poetry as a whole is laudatory of
the gods. And by the same course of reasoning they also attribute to music
the upbuilding of morals, believing that everything which tends to correct
the mind is close to the gods. Now most of the Greeks assigned to Dionysus,
Apollo, Hecate, the Muses, and above all to Demeter, everything of an
orgiastic or Bacchic or choral nature, as well as the mystic element in
initiations; and they give the name "Iacchus" not only to Dionysus but also
to the leader-in-chief of the mysteries, who is the genius of Demeter.
Perseus Encyclopedia sporades
... The island is known for its mystery cult at the sanctuary of the Great
Gods, and for the Nike which is now housed in the Louvre. Its name,
Samothrace, "Thracian Samos," implies that the island was originally
populated by Thracians from Samos, who founded the sanctuary of the Great
Gods. In c. 700 B. C. the first Greeks arrived on the island, and the
sanctuary thrived and grew under their care, but the sacred language of the
cult remained Thracian until the first century B.C. In the fourth century
B.C. Philip II of Macedon was initiated into the mysteries, and in the
third century B.C. many new buildings were erected by Ptolemy II and his
sister Arsinoe. The cult spread widely through the Hellenistic world and
came to an end in about 400 A.D. with the spread of Christianity. ...
Quentin David Jones
Greetings,
Jayson Kelly <jke...@clear.net.nz> wrote in
article <358B101D...@clear.net.nz>...
> I have little on Iasius/Iasion. The mysteries
> you refer to are presumably derived from Demeter.
> Would anyone care to elucidate further on this?
> Regards
> JK
The source for recent interest in Iasius and the
theory of his origin of the Jesus story is
Jayson Kelly
Quentin David Jones wrote:
> Greetings,
And to you also
> "The Other Jesus" by David Doleshall,
> you can get a sample copy at
> http://home.pacbell.net/gailk/iasius.html
Thanks, I'll check it out.
> Anyway the Ancient Mysteries were the dominant religion
> of the Roman pre-Christian world. The Mysteries were
> originally available only to the elite,
In so much as an Eleusinian initiate had to be Greek. Otherwise, the only
exclusion was for those that had committed murder. Samothrace was open to
all, including slaves.
> more widespread towards Empire times. They took the
> form of serious, elaborate rituals often lasting a
> week and requiring difficult preparation and harsh
> tests.
The Eleusinian festival of Greater Mysteries was celebrated for nine days,
starting on 14 September each year. The lesser ceremony being held in
February. At Samothrace, no particular day was given for initiation.
Also, the lesser (myesis) and greater (epopteia) Mysteries could be taken
on the same day.
[...]
> The mysteries were held
> extremely sacredand secret, more than even the Church
> or the Craft in our times, more like, say, a pharaonic
> consecration.
The success of this silence, to me, demonstrates the spiritual/
psychological validity of the initiation. The aspirant clearly was awed
by the revelations.
[...]
> So according to early myth Zeus had two sons by Electra
> the mortal virgin (E-lectra = not bedded): Iasion/Iasius
> and Dardanus. Dardanus went on to found Troy, and Zeus
> also wanted great things for Iasius, so he had him
> institute the Mysteries among humans,
Were there Mysteries celebrated at Zeus' oracle at Dodonae?
The fact that it is Zeus, a male figure instead of a female (the Great
Mother, Cybele, Demeter etc.), who ordains the institution of the
Mysteries, leads me to believe that it is a later Patriarchal
introduction.
> thus Iasius founded
> the Samothracian Mysteries, the mother-lodge.
The Samothracian Mysteries were pre Greek in origin.
> The standard story has Iasius seducing Demeter in a thrice
> plowed field (?) and Zeus kills him with a thunderbolt for
> his audacity with the goddess. It appears that in the
> Mysteries the central revelation was that Iasius rose from
> the dead to sit beside his father Zeus (see Theocritus
> below).
I am unfamiliar with this claim applying to either the Samothracian or
Eleusinian Mysteries. Again, probably a later adaptation.
[...]
> . ascends to be beside his father,
It would seem that his Father Zeus did not quite accept him, keeping him
on the outer of his circles.
[...]
> What we call Christianity now is far different from the early
> forms which seemed far closer to the mystery rituals (ie pagan
> mystery rituals) and Doleshall points out the connection with
> the Areopagus (the religious court which dealt with violation
> of the secrets - death was the original penalty for revealing
> the inner secrets - Paul was 'hauled' up before the Areopagus
> and had to leave town suddenly (Athens)).
Knowing what type of motives must have been driving the formulation of the
early church (as opposed to christians), I can see why Paul's line would
try and sway temporal powers through the use and absorption of beliefs
currently in practice. After all, this sort of thing had occurred many
times during the Dynastic rule of Egypt and with her priest craft.
> I include here some references to Iasius/Iasion below, mostly
> from the Perseus Project
Thank you for this information. Much appreciated.
Regards
JK
Carl KICE Brown
For Dionysos, especially, experts writing before the decipherment were
wont to interpret the fact that much of the myth and ritual
surrounding this god related to his arrival in the area as indicating
that he in truth was a recent arrival to the Greek pantheon from an
Asian origin. With the understanding that he had been a resident of
the area since Mycenean times, at least, it was clear the "arrival
myths" could not be interpreted historically, at least in the way they
had been so interpreted. Check out Kerenyi's tome _Dionysos_,
currently out in paperback in the US.
joshua geller
Carl KICE Brown <cbr...@mail.pmeh.uiowa.edu> writes:
> Chrisso Boulis wrote:
> > Count Pierre Bezuhov (psz...@smartt.com) wrote:
> > : Zachary C. McCullough wrote:
> > : >Would you be so kind as to explain a little of what Linear B is?
> > Well, there have already been two very good descriptions so I won't
> > add to that, but will add that buried in the inventory and accounting
> > lists are offerings to various Greek Gods including most of the
> > 12 Olympians. I recall Zeus, Athena, Ares, Hephaistos, Dionysis,
> > Demeter, Aphrodite (though the spelling is a bit different and therefore
> > puts a wrench in the "born of foam" etymology of her name). Also
> > Enyaulios and Paion. It's not a complete list, just what I can
> > remember off the top of my head. Several of the Olympians have
> > been given post-Bronze Age foreign origins in several standard
> > mythology textbooks (pre 1950). This "new" info changes the picture
> > a bit.
> For Dionysos, especially, experts writing before the decipherment were
> wont to interpret the fact that much of the myth and ritual
> surrounding this god related to his arrival in the area as indicating
> that he in truth was a recent arrival to the Greek pantheon from an
> Asian origin. With the understanding that he had been a resident of
> the area since Mycenean times, at least, it was clear the "arrival
> myths" could not be interpreted historically, at least in the way they
> had been so interpreted. Check out Kerenyi's tome _Dionysos_,
> currently out in paperback in the US.
Dear Kice,
I'll have to read this book.
I'll point out that:
-> The Lord of Nysa, whatever else He is, is a repository of
technology.
-> If you go back far enough into the past, He was not in Greece.
-> At some point He arrived in Greece.
This point is whenever the Greeks started cultivating the vine. So a
while back.
Nysa, wherever else it might be, is a place in the sky.
my very best,
josh
Chrisso Boulis
joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
: > For Dionysos, especially, experts writing before the decipherment were
: > wont to interpret the fact that much of the myth and ritual
: > surrounding this god related to his arrival in the area as indicating
: > that he in truth was a recent arrival to the Greek pantheon from an
: > Asian origin. With the understanding that he had been a resident of
: > the area since Mycenean times, at least, it was clear the "arrival
: > myths" could not be interpreted historically, at least in the way they
: > had been so interpreted. Check out Kerenyi's tome _Dionysos_,
: > currently out in paperback in the US.
: Dear Kice,
: I'll have to read this book.
: I'll point out that:
: -> The Lord of Nysa, whatever else He is, is a repository of
: technology.
This is True - Dionysos is the "god of the vine" but I do not
believe that the mythology of the Greek World credits him with the
invention of making wine. Rather he took up the "job" of the
vine and the recreational activities including drama (comedy and
tragedy), music, symposia, etc. which go along with it. The cult
of Dionysis is deeply rooted in both viniculture and entertainment.
The mythology of Dionysis, on the other hand, has very little to
do with either wine or entertainment, but focuses on his acceptance
by "man" as the son of Zeus and a "demi-god" (his mother Semele
was half-god since her father Cadmus was a mortal and her mother
Harmonia was the full goddess daughter of Ares and Aphrodite).
Similarly, Demeter is not credited with the invention of wheat
cultivation, but is the god/gaurdian of the harvest, etc.
: -> If you go back far enough into the past, He was not in Greece.
If you mean that the cultivation of the vine was not originate in
Greece, yes. Though, I do believe that the vine itself is indigenous
to Greece and was not introduced from outside.
: -> At some point He arrived in Greece.
Yes, there is a clear cut time when the vine wasn't cultivated and when
the vine was cultivated. If I recall, this took place during the
Neolithic Period (6000-3000 BC). (This is a big ballpark figure - it's
been a while since I've done prehistory!)
: This point is whenever the Greeks started cultivating the vine. So a
: while back.
: Nysa, wherever else it might be, is a place in the sky.
Actually, no. Nysa is a "real" place in Greece - A hill in Thrace
or Thessaly (I forget since both areas had strong cult practices
to Dionysis. I've been reading regional mythology of both areas
and without my notes at hand it's a bit confusing). There is a
shrine to Dionysis at the site. I've never heard of the "sky"
interpretation.
I'm finding my current research particularly interesting since
practical applications of cult are frequently ommitted from
mythological discussions. They are a significant component
to understand how myth and legends eveolved.
C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
Carl KICE Brown
Snipping nongermane stuff from previous threads. (And snipping most of my own comments, except ...)
. Check out Kerenyi's tome _Dionysos_,
> > currently out in paperback in the US.
>
joshua geller wrote:
>
> Dear Kice,
>
> I'll have to read this book.
>
> I'll point out that:
>
> -> The Lord of Nysa, whatever else He is, is a repository of
> technology.
>
> -> If you go back far enough into the past, He was not in Greece.
>
> -> At some point He arrived in Greece.
>
> This point is whenever the Greeks started cultivating the vine. So a
> while back.
>
> Nysa, wherever else it might be, is a place in the sky.
>
> my very best,
>
> josh
And Kice writes anew: Interesting comments josh -- I think you'll
find the book interesting. As to being a repository of technology,
one of Kerenyi's arguments is that Dionysos (or a Minoan precursor)
was a god of honey mead (and mythically incorporated the cultic
technology of its creation). Only later, when wine-making did cross
over to Crete (probably from Egypt) did the god sort of switch
intoxicants.
I think I've also mentioned before that Kerenyi also associates the
god with Sirius, the star associated with both a wondrous growth spurt
of vegetative life but also with almost overwhelming heat and disease
-- a legacy we still retain in the phrase "the dog-days of August".
Perhaps the celestial Nysa is "geographically" localized near Sirius
(???).
joshua geller
cbo...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
> : Nysa, wherever else it might be, is a place in the sky.
> Actually, no. Nysa is a "real" place in Greece - A hill in Thrace
> or Thessaly (I forget since both areas had strong cult practices
> to Dionysis. I've been reading regional mythology of both areas
> and without my notes at hand it's a bit confusing). There is a
> shrine to Dionysis at the site. I've never heard of the "sky"
> interpretation.
Dear Mr. Boulis,
Celestial topoi invariably have earthly counterparts.
Undoubtedly Nysa is lots of real places in Greece, just like Titicaca
is lots of real places in the Andes.
my very best,
josh
joshua geller
> > -> The Lord of Nysa, whatever else He is, is a repository of
> > technology.
> > -> If you go back far enough into the past, He was not in Greece.
> > -> At some point He arrived in Greece.
> > This point is whenever the Greeks started cultivating the vine. So a
> > while back.
> > Nysa, wherever else it might be, is a place in the sky.
> And Kice writes anew: Interesting comments josh -- I think you'll
> find the book interesting. As to being a repository of technology,
> one of Kerenyi's arguments is that Dionysos (or a Minoan precursor)
> was a god of honey mead (and mythically incorporated the cultic
> technology of its creation). Only later, when wine-making did cross
> over to Crete (probably from Egypt) did the god sort of switch
> intoxicants.
Very interesting. Especially considering that mushrooms are known to
have been pressed with mead. Of course pressing them with wine also
works.
> I think I've also mentioned before that Kerenyi also associates the
> god with Sirius, the star associated with both a wondrous growth spurt
> of vegetative life but also with almost overwhelming heat and disease
> -- a legacy we still retain in the phrase "the dog-days of August".
> Perhaps the celestial Nysa is "geographically" localized near Sirius
> (???).
Possibly so. That would make some sense, considering Sirius' position
in relationship to the Milky Way.
my very best,
josh
Opinicus
Carl KICE Brown wrote in message
>technology of its creation). Only later, when wine-making did
cross
>over to Crete (probably from Egypt) did the god sort of switch
>intoxicants.
I would think that wine would have originated in Anatolia rather
than Egypt. I don't imagine grapes would do too well in Egypt
but they certainly thrive in Anatolia. The Hittites by the way
had a wine god by the name of Warpalash and wine ("viana" in
Hittite--sound familiar?) was used in Hittite religious
ceremonies. (I'm sure they kicked back a few between visits to
the temple, too.)
My wife (an archaeologist by training) says the Hittites
probably did not introduce viniculture to Anatolia themselves
but instead came an indigenous industry when they arrived in the
peninsula.
Bob
Istanbul
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Kanyak's Doghouse
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Kate Brown
In article <358FFA12...@mail.pmeh.uiowa.edu>, dated Tue, 23 Jun
1998, Carl KICE Brown <cbr...@mail.pmeh.uiowa.edu> writes
>
>I think I've also mentioned before that Kerenyi also associates the
>god with Sirius, the star associated with both a wondrous growth spurt
>of vegetative life but also with almost overwhelming heat and disease
>-- a legacy we still retain in the phrase "the dog-days of August".
The association is not just mythic - this phrase has physical origins in
the fact that Sirius rises heliacally at midsummer, bringing in the
hottest days.
>Perhaps the celestial Nysa is "geographically" localized near Sirius
>(???).
>
why not?
--
Kate B
take time out to reply
Carl KICE Brown
> Carl KICE Brown wrote in message {snipped by Opinicus}:
> >technology of its creation). Only later, when wine-making did
> cross
> >over to Crete (probably from Egypt) did the god sort of switch
> >intoxicants.
Opinicus wrote in response:
> I would think that wine would have originated in Anatolia rather
> than Egypt. I don't imagine grapes would do too well in Egypt
> but they certainly thrive in Anatolia. The Hittites by the way
> had a wine god by the name of Warpalash and wine ("viana" in
> Hittite--sound familiar?) was used in Hittite religious
> ceremonies. (I'm sure they kicked back a few between visits to
> the temple, too.)
>
> My wife (an archaeologist by training) says the Hittites
> probably did not introduce viniculture to Anatolia themselves
> but instead came an indigenous industry when they arrived in the
> peninsula.
>
> Bob
> Istanbul
> ---
To which Kice now responds: Sorry I did not mean to imply that
vini-/viticulture originated in Egypt. And I admit I may have been
misrepresenting Kerenyi's argument (it's been a couple of years or so
since I read his _Dionysos_ in detail) that the wine-making technology
came to Crete from Egypt. Obviously, the Cretan's had trade relations
all over the eastern Mediterranean and could as easily have imported
it from Anatolian or pre-Phoenician sources. I do have a nagging
thought, tho, that part of Kerenyi's argument was that the appearance
of viniculture on Crete was coincident with a major appearance of
Egyptian influence.
There are definitely those in this news group (alt.mythology) who know
much more than I about Egyptian myth and history, and I expect they'll
have some input.
BTW, I apologize aforehand if you find this offensive, but I couldn't
help thinking that "Opinicus" sounds like the name of a newsperson,
etc. character who'd be found in a episode of Hercules or Xena.
Carl KICE Brown
Continuing the discourse between myself and josh ...
I replied to Josh's comments (in part concerning Kerenyi's _Dionysos_:
>
> > And Kice writes anew: Interesting comments josh -- I think you'll
> > find the book interesting. As to being a repository of technology,
> > one of Kerenyi's arguments is that Dionysos (or a Minoan precursor)
> > was a god of honey mead (and mythically incorporated the cultic
> > technology of its creation). Only later, when wine-making did cross
> > over to Crete (probably from Egypt) did the god sort of switch
> > intoxicants.
>
Josh responded:
> Very interesting. Especially considering that mushrooms are known to
> have been pressed with mead. Of course pressing them with wine also
> works.
>
In their _Road to Eleusis_ Wasson and his collaborators argue that
pre-distillation the only reason Greek wine would have been so
powerful it had to be diluted with water had to have been intoxicants
other than alcohol. And just WHAT were those flowers the Mainads were
always out gathering -- or for that matter WHAT were the flowers
Persephone and her companions (including Athena and Artemis, n'est-ce
pas) were gathering at Nysa, before she was overwhelmed (transported?)
by the Lord of Nysa (?) and Gaia's entheogenic narkisssos. -- but I
babble...
joshua geller
Carl KICE Brown <cbr...@mail.pmeh.uiowa.edu> writes:
> In their _Road to Eleusis_ Wasson and his collaborators argue that
> pre-distillation the only reason Greek wine would have been so
> powerful it had to be diluted with water had to have been intoxicants
> other than alcohol. And just WHAT were those flowers the Mainads were
> always out gathering -- or for that matter WHAT were the flowers
> Persephone and her companions (including Athena and Artemis, n'est-ce
> pas) were gathering at Nysa, before she was overwhelmed (transported?)
> by the Lord of Nysa (?) and Gaia's entheogenic narkisssos. -- but I
> babble...
Interesting babble, though.
my best,
josh
Alice Turner
Chrisso Boulis wrote in message <6molk2$glt$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>: Nysa, wherever else it might be, is a place in the sky.
>Actually, no. Nysa is a "real" place in Greece - A hill in Thrace
>or Thessaly (I forget since both areas had strong cult practices
>to Dionysis. I've been reading regional mythology of both areas
>and without my notes at hand it's a bit confusing). There is a
>shrine to Dionysis at the site. I've never heard of the "sky"
>interpretation.
What? I've always believed it to be a mountain in Africa. Libya, I think.
Alice Turner
joshua geller
"Alice Turner" <a...@interport.net> writes:
> Chrisso Boulis wrote in message <6molk2$glt$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
> >: Nysa, wherever else it might be, is a place in the sky.
> >Actually, no. Nysa is a "real" place in Greece - A hill in Thrace
> >or Thessaly (I forget since both areas had strong cult practices
> >to Dionysis. I've been reading regional mythology of both areas
> >and without my notes at hand it's a bit confusing). There is a
> >shrine to Dionysis at the site. I've never heard of the "sky"
> >interpretation.
> What? I've always believed it to be a mountain in Africa. Libya, I think.
There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
my best,
josh
Chris Camfield
On 23 Jun 1998 16:37:22 GMT, cbo...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso
Boulis) wrote:
>joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
[chop]
>: > For Dionysos, especially, experts writing before the decipherment were
>: technology.
>This is True - Dionysos is the "god of the vine" but I do not
>believe that the mythology of the Greek World credits him with the
>invention of making wine.
>Similarly, Demeter is not credited with the invention of wheat
>cultivation, but is the god/gaurdian of the harvest, etc.
This is, to my knowledge, not true of Dionysus and perhaps not true of
Demeter. I'm afraid my copy of the Library (of Apollodorus) is buried
amongst other books, but there is a specific myth involving Dionysus
in which Dionysus teaches wine-making to a man in Greece for the first
time. He gave the wine to his friends and they drank it, became
afraid because they'd never been drunk before, and killed him because
they thought he'd poisoned them.
I thought that one of the families of Eleusis was supposed to have
been taught agriculture by Demeter, but I'm not sure.
CC
Opinicus
Carl KICE Brown wrote in message
couldn't
>help thinking that "Opinicus" sounds like the name of a
newsperson,
>etc. character who'd be found in a episode of Hercules or Xena.
3rd New International:
opinicus - (n) 1: a fabulous beast represented esp.
in heraldry much like a
griffon but with a short tail; 2: an insignia
bearing or consisting of an
opinicus
Sound like it would be a perfect character to inhabit
Hercules/Xena's universe.
Chrisso Boulis
Alice Turner (a...@interport.net) wrote:
: Chrisso Boulis wrote in message <6molk2$glt$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
: >: Nysa, wherever else it might be, is a place in the sky.
: >Actually, no. Nysa is a "real" place in Greece - A hill in Thrace
: >or Thessaly (I forget since both areas had strong cult practices
: >to Dionysis. I've been reading regional mythology of both areas
: >and without my notes at hand it's a bit confusing). There is a
: >shrine to Dionysis at the site. I've never heard of the "sky"
: >interpretation.
: What? I've always believed it to be a mountain in Africa. Libya, I think.
That's part of the problem. In actuallity, there about a half dozen
or more "real" Nysa's including ones in Thrace and in Thessaly.
Both of the later have strong cultic ties to Dionysis. Hence the
question, was the place named for Dionysis or Dionysis named for
the place. Scholars are split on the etymology of "dionysos" with
"Lord of Nysa" being one variation and "Child of Dios/Zeus" being
the other. Given that a large portion of Dionysis mythology
focuses on the fact that he is not a mortal son of Semele, but
a 3/4 divine sone of Zeus, the later etymology is quite common.
I've only run across "Lord of Nysa" with respect to cults in
either Thrace or Thessaly. The more widely recognized aspects
of Dionysos cult are connected with theaters and not with wine
making or production, though rustic shrines and cult practices have
not been widely studied in the Greek world. This is one of
my major gripes about the study of Greek myth in general is that
there as been very little consideration of the cult practices
or cult history. With Dionysis you have a three way split -
mythology of the god with respect to his "deification;" the
cult practices surrounding the theater and lastly his role
as God of Merriment and therefore Wine. It's interesting
that scholars are very quick to look outside the Greek world
for interpretations of myth, even before they have looked
at non-mythological aspect of the Greek World.
(Ms.) C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
Chrisso Boulis
joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
: There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
Is the "sky" Nysa from an ancient historical source or modern
interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments?
Having been knee deep translating Homer, Hesiod and the Homeric
Hymns - I don't recall any "heavenly" Nysa - just the plain old
earthly one inhabited by the Nymphs (subsequent Maenads) that helped
raise/create Dionysis to the level of god.
(Ms.) C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
joshua geller
cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
> Alice Turner (a...@interport.net) wrote:
> : Chrisso Boulis wrote in message <6molk2$glt$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
> : >: Nysa, wherever else it might be, is a place in the sky.
> : >Actually, no. Nysa is a "real" place in Greece - A hill in Thrace
> : >or Thessaly (I forget since both areas had strong cult practices
> : >to Dionysis. I've been reading regional mythology of both areas
> : >and without my notes at hand it's a bit confusing). There is a
> : >shrine to Dionysis at the site. I've never heard of the "sky"
> : >interpretation.
> : What? I've always believed it to be a mountain in Africa. Libya, I think.
> That's part of the problem. In actuallity, there about a half dozen
> or more "real" Nysa's including ones in Thrace and in Thessaly.
> Both of the later have strong cultic ties to Dionysis.
Dear Ms. Boulis,
I am sure that all of them do.
They are all earthly reflections of the celestial Nysa.
my very best,
josh
joshua geller
cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
> joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
> : There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
> Is the "sky" Nysa from an ancient historical source or modern
> interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments?
Dear Ms. Boulis,
It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
> Having been knee deep translating Homer, Hesiod and the Homeric
> Hymns - I don't recall any "heavenly" Nysa - just the plain old
> earthly one inhabited by the Nymphs (subsequent Maenads) that helped
> raise/create Dionysis to the level of god.
Ma'am, have you assimilated the material presented in Santillana and
Dechend's "Hamlet's Mill"? This is the definitive text (so far) on the
technical vocabulary of myth. This material must be assimilated before
any real sense can be made out of myth; of course it does not have to
be assimilated from "Hamlet's Mill".
I generally recommend a course of reading of three books:
"Stairways to the Stars" by Anthony Aveni
"The Secret of the Incas" by William Sullivan
and "Hamlet's Mill".
This stuff is very complex. I started to understand it on my third
rereading of "Hamlet's Mill". Of course, the other two books hadn't
been published at that time; I hope and expect that reading them in
the order given will be enough that people can understand
it.
my very best, Ma'am,
josh
Carl KICE Brown
Kice here: just a couple of comments. I too find the material in
these books fascinating. To say that Josh is an AVID PROPONENT of the
methodology presented is an understatement of the nth degree. I'd
qualify his statement above by referring to "a" technical language of
myth rather than to "the" TLM. Josh's phrase about "any real sense of
myth" I'd amend to "any complete understanding of myth", my
perspective being that such complete understanding partakes of
Dechend's analyses but also partakes of other TLMs. I may be wrong in
thinking that Josh does consider the "Hamlet's Mill" system sufficient
for a complete understanding. This said I recommend these books
highly.
joshua geller
> > Ma'am, have you assimilated the material presented in Santillana and
> > Dechend's "Hamlet's Mill"? This is the definitive text (so far) on the
> > technical vocabulary of myth. This material must be assimilated before
> > any real sense can be made out of myth; of course it does not have to
> > be assimilated from "Hamlet's Mill".
> > I generally recommend a course of reading of three books:
> > "Stairways to the Stars" by Anthony Aveni
> > "The Secret of the Incas" by William Sullivan
> > and "Hamlet's Mill".
> > This stuff is very complex. I started to understand it on my third
> > rereading of "Hamlet's Mill". Of course, the other two books hadn't
> > been published at that time; I hope and expect that reading them in
> > the order given will be enough that people can understand
> > it.
> Kice here: just a couple of comments. I too find the material in
> these books fascinating. To say that Josh is an AVID PROPONENT of the
> methodology presented is an understatement of the nth degree.
Dear Kice,
It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.
> I'd
> qualify his statement above by referring to "a" technical language of
> myth rather than to "the" TLM.
This is a fair correction, and is accepted.
> Josh's phrase about "any real sense of
> myth" I'd amend to "any complete understanding of myth",
Also fair and also accepted.
> my
> perspective being that such complete understanding partakes of
> Dechend's analyses but also partakes of other TLMs. I may be wrong in
> thinking that Josh does consider the "Hamlet's Mill" system sufficient
> for a complete understanding.
Not sufficient. Necessary, though.
> This said I recommend these books
> highly.
Thank you, Kice. These are good points.
my best,
josh
phx...@pop.phnx.uswest.net
joshua geller wrote:
> cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
> > joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
>
> > : There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
>
> > Is the "sky" Nysa from an ancient historical source or modern
> > interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments?
>
> Dear Ms. Boulis,
>
> It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
>
> > Having been knee deep translating Homer, Hesiod and the Homeric
> > Hymns - I don't recall any "heavenly" Nysa - just the plain old
> > earthly one inhabited by the Nymphs (subsequent Maenads) that helped
> > raise/create Dionysis to the level of god.
>
> Ma'am, have you assimilated the material presented in Santillana and
> Dechend's "Hamlet's Mill"? This is the definitive text (so far) on the
> technical vocabulary of myth. This material must be assimilated before
> any real sense can be made out of myth; of course it does not have to
> be assimilated from "Hamlet's Mill".
>
> I generally recommend a course of reading of three books:
>
> "Stairways to the Stars" by Anthony Aveni
> "The Secret of the Incas" by William Sullivan
>
> and "Hamlet's Mill".
>
> This stuff is very complex. I started to understand it on my third
> rereading of "Hamlet's Mill". Of course, the other two books hadn't
> been published at that time; I hope and expect that reading them in
> the order given will be enough that people can understand
> it.
>
> my very best, Ma'am,
>
> josh
Josh, your condescension is hilarious! How about if it took you took
you three readings, you need an Evelyn Wood Reading Comprehension course!
:-]
Regards,
Jeff Marshall
Hi Josh,
>Dear Ms. Boulis,
>
>I am sure that all of them do.
>
>They are all earthly reflections of the celestial Nysa.
>
>my very best,
>
>josh
I'm bowled over with too many different projects right now to wade through
the mythology and the analysis. So I'll ask, what is the significance ... in
the, err 'a' technical vocabulary of myth sense of Nysa and what does this
mean to people today. Also, where in the sky is the celestial Nysa?
AOI
Jeff Marshall
http://members.tripod.com/~graalquest/
My ICQ# is 5504005 or,
Page me online: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/5504005
joshua geller
"Jeff Marshall" <mag...@flash.net> writes:
> I'm bowled over with too many different projects right now to wade through
> the mythology and the analysis. So I'll ask, what is the significance ... in
> the, err 'a' technical vocabulary of myth sense of Nysa and what does this
> mean to people today. Also, where in the sky is the celestial Nysa?
I don't know how to answer your first question.
The answer to your second question is "I don't know yet". Nysa is a
mountain, so the temptation to make it "the highest mountain", that
is the June solstitial point, is strong. But what stars would it have
been associated with? I can't say right now.
my very best,
josh
Chrisso Boulis
joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
: cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
: > joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
: > : There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
: > Is the "sky" Nysa from an ancient historical source or modern
: > interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments?
: Dear Ms. Boulis,
: It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
Oh I see.
As a Professional Classist and Classical Archaeologist, I don't get
a chance to delve into the anything outside of the primary sources
that is - Hesiod, Homer, the Hymns, dedicatory inscriptions all in
the original text. Funny, I've never hand any problem making sense
of the myth - they all see quite straightforward in the original,
though I must say that I've seen my share of dubious translations
-accurate in a fashion, but there is a tendancy towards "pretention".
There is a considerable amount of humor in Homer, which gets
overlooked.
I've also had some experience with contemporary Greek "folklore"
versus ancient myth. Old habit, including Mythology die hard -
actually, they just don't change. The oral tradition is exceptionally
strong and it is interesting that the many views held by the
ancient sources are still maintained in local traditions (especially
in the more rural areas where I have worked). My grandmothers
would recite the Homeric Hymns (in Greek) to me as a child,
with some embellishments common to her village. The commonalities
and differences are quite fascinating.
C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
joshua geller
cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
> joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
> : cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
> : > joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
> : > : There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
> : > Is the "sky" Nysa from an ancient historical source or modern
> : > interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments?
> : It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
> Oh I see.
> As a Professional Classist and Classical Archaeologist, I don't get
> a chance to delve into the anything outside of the primary sources
> that is - Hesiod, Homer, the Hymns, dedicatory inscriptions all in
> the original text. Funny, I've never hand any problem making sense
> of the myth - they all see quite straightforward in the original,
> though I must say that I've seen my share of dubious translations
> -accurate in a fashion, but there is a tendancy towards "pretention".
> There is a considerable amount of humor in Homer, which gets
> overlooked.
Dear Ms. Boulis,
Myth by its very nature has many levels. It is possible to understand
many of these levels and not understand many others. Myth is
compressed; as much meaning as possible is put into a few words. What
great artists do with myth is not necessarily itself myth. Plato (and,
I think, Homer) used myth to make points.
Homer, Hesiod, Pindar, Appollonius: all of these people were very much
aware of the astronomical framework of myth. This is pretty obvious to
me, anyway, but it would be.
I respectfully submit, Ma'am, that as knowledgeable as you undoubtedly
are, becoming familiar with the astronomical stuff that Kice and I
have touched upon will complete and perfect your knowledge.
> I've also had some experience with contemporary Greek "folklore"
> versus ancient myth. Old habit, including Mythology die hard -
> actually, they just don't change. The oral tradition is exceptionally
> strong and it is interesting that the many views held by the
> ancient sources are still maintained in local traditions (especially
> in the more rural areas where I have worked). My grandmothers
> would recite the Homeric Hymns (in Greek) to me as a child,
> with some embellishments common to her village. The commonalities
> and differences are quite fascinating.
This surprises me not at all; there are, or were until recently,
living oral traditions of Alexander the Great all through Asia.
Mike Cleven
On 24 Jun 1998 10:40:56 -0700, joshua geller
<dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
>> Alice Turner (a...@interport.net) wrote:
>> : Chrisso Boulis wrote in message <6molk2$glt$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>...
>
>> : >: Nysa, wherever else it might be, is a place in the sky.
>
>> : >Actually, no. Nysa is a "real" place in Greece - A hill in Thrace
>> : >or Thessaly (I forget since both areas had strong cult practices
>> : >to Dionysis. I've been reading regional mythology of both areas
>> : >and without my notes at hand it's a bit confusing). There is a
>> : >shrine to Dionysis at the site. I've never heard of the "sky"
>> : >interpretation.
>
>> : What? I've always believed it to be a mountain in Africa. Libya, I think.
>
>> That's part of the problem. In actuallity, there about a half dozen
>> or more "real" Nysa's including ones in Thrace and in Thessaly.
>> Both of the later have strong cultic ties to Dionysis.
>
>Dear Ms. Boulis,
>
>I am sure that all of them do.
>
>They are all earthly reflections of the celestial Nysa.
Please cite a source (or at least a sketchy logic) for this "celestial
Nysa".......
_Not_ a modernist/revisionists reworking of the mythology, but an
actual classical or archaic reference thereto...........
Mike Cleven
http://home.bc.rogers.wave.ca/ironmtn/
The thunderbolt steers all things.
- Herakleitos
Mike Cleven
On 24 Jun 1998 10:59:23 -0700, joshua geller
<dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
>> joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
>
>> : There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
>
>> Is the "sky" Nysa from an ancient historical source or modern
>> interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments?
>
>Dear Ms. Boulis,
>
>It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
Who says _your_ reading of the myth is "real"? All it is is a "modern
interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments"....and
perhaps not even based on a _wide_ range thereof. Nysa-on-earth is
the mythological Nysa, the same way the earthly Delphi is _the_
Delphi, the earthly Parnassus is _the_ Parnassus, the earthly Olympus
is _the_ Olympus, etc. etc. etc. Greeks did not have a dichotomous
view of physical and "heavenly" reality; the immortals co-existed in
this world with humanity, transcending it by character of being rather
than by origin in another plane. The importance of the physical
locations of Delphi, Olympia, Nysa, Samothrace and countless other
sacred sites in pagan Greece/Anatolia is proof of that. Your own
reading of the myth is really no more relevant than Zecharia
Sitchin's......
Mike Cleven
On 25 Jun 1998 10:19:58 -0700, joshua geller
<dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
Well, you'd better, or your whole specious interpretation of the myth
will look even shallower than it already does. The June solstitial
point on the ecliptic is the boundary between Gemini and Cancer, as
any good astrologer knows, and corresponds to the midsummer rites
throughout pagan belief-cultures. The Dionysia was not one of these
solstitial rites, however, which tends to work against your claim that
your "celestial Nysa" is "the highest mountain", and therefore the
solstitial point (which not even Olympus was equated with).
The Greeks had no concept of celestial palaces for their gods, but
rather montane ones - Olympus, Parnassus, etc. - which were viewed as
physical reality, not mythical representations of somewhere beyond the
physical cosmos. Your theories about Nysa are modernist and
out-of-context......
joshua geller
iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
> On 24 Jun 1998 10:59:23 -0700, joshua geller
> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
> >It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
> Who says _your_ reading of the myth is "real"?
Dear Mr. Cleven,
Ancient knowledge is holographic and experiential. That is, there are
lots of little bits which are learned over time and integrated into a
whole when the person learning has certain experiences.
> All it is is a "modern
> interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments"
Not so.
my very best,
josh
joshua geller
iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
> On 24 Jun 1998 10:40:56 -0700, joshua geller
> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
> >They are all earthly reflections of the celestial Nysa.
> Please cite a source (or at least a sketchy logic) for this "celestial
> Nysa".......
> _Not_ a modernist/revisionists reworking of the mythology, but an
> actual classical or archaic reference thereto...........
Dear Mr. Cleven,
Do the work; you will know.
Don't do the work, and me and a hundred others telling you won't
convince you.
You have the list of books?
my very best,
josh
joshua geller
iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
> On 25 Jun 1998 10:19:58 -0700, joshua geller
> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
> >I don't know how to answer your first question.
> >The answer to your second question is "I don't know yet". Nysa is a
> >mountain, so the temptation to make it "the highest mountain", that
> >is the June solstitial point, is strong. But what stars would it have
> >been associated with? I can't say right now.
> Well, you'd better, or your whole specious interpretation of the myth
> will look even shallower than it already does. The June solstitial
> point on the ecliptic is the boundary between Gemini and Cancer, as
> any good astrologer knows, and corresponds to the midsummer rites
> throughout pagan belief-cultures. The Dionysia was not one of these
> solstitial rites, however, which tends to work against your claim that
> your "celestial Nysa" is "the highest mountain", and therefore the
> solstitial point (which not even Olympus was equated with).
Dear Mr. Cleven,
Thank you for sharing your opinions with me, and your observations. I
am, of course, aware of the present location of the June solstitial
point.
> The Greeks had no concept of celestial palaces for their gods,
How do you know this, Mr. Cleven?
> but
> rather montane ones - Olympus, Parnassus, etc. - which were viewed as
> physical reality, not mythical representations of somewhere beyond the
> physical cosmos. Your theories about Nysa are modernist and
> out-of-context......
Once again, sir, thank you for sharing your opinions.
my very best to you,
josh
Dwight E. Howell
Opinicus wrote:
> Carl KICE Brown wrote in message
> >technology of its creation). Only later, when wine-making did
> cross
> >over to Crete (probably from Egypt) did the god sort of switch
> >intoxicants.
> I would think that wine would have originated in Anatolia rather
> than Egypt. I don't imagine grapes would do too well in Egypt
> but they certainly thrive in Anatolia. The Hittites by the way
> had a wine god by the name of Warpalash and wine ("viana" in
> Hittite--sound familiar?) was used in Hittite religious
> ceremonies. (I'm sure they kicked back a few between visits to
> the temple, too.)
>
> My wife (an archaeologist by training) says the Hittites
> probably did not introduce viniculture to Anatolia themselves
> but instead came an indigenous industry when they arrived in the
> peninsula.
>
> Bob
> Istanbul
> ---
> To reply by email, dot the dash in doruk-net.
> Kanyak's Doghouse
> <http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/summit/300/>
I believe the early Egyptians were big on beer although that seems to
have been broader then than now and no bitters. I believe I have seen
paintings from Ancient Egypt showing vines loaded with grapes but beer
clearly was the maine brew.
Count Pierre Bezuhov
Mike Cleven wrote:
>On 24 Jun 1998 10:59:23 -0700, joshua geller
><dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>
>>cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
>>> joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
>>
>>> : There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
>>
>>> Is the "sky" Nysa from an ancient historical source or modern
>>> interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments?
>>
>>Dear Ms. Boulis,
>>
>>It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
>
>Who says _your_ reading of the myth is "real"? All it is is a "modern
>interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments"....and
>perhaps not even based on a _wide_ range thereof. Nysa-on-earth is
>the mythological Nysa, the same way the earthly Delphi is _the_
>Delphi, the earthly Parnassus is _the_ Parnassus, the earthly Olympus
>is _the_ Olympus, etc. etc. etc.
Delphi was physically connected to the lands of the gods by way of the
divine vapours that conveyed godlike thoughts. (this half-agrees with
your interpretation, ie: the part that describes an inspired
"character of being"). Parnassus, like many divine mountain tops, was
characterized by its physical proximity to heaven.
>Greeks did not have a dichotomous
>view of physical and "heavenly" reality; the immortals co-existed in
>this world with humanity, transcending it by character of being rather
>than by origin in another plane.
Not really true. I'm no mythologer but off the top of my head I think
Phaeton is described as riding Apollo's chariot of fire into the
turbulent current of the ether and was warned that he wouldn't have
the skill to land the chariot on the rotating circle of heaven. Even
if this is referring to landing upside down on the solid firmament of
the sky it still makes the distinction between Earth and heaven, where
the gods may roam. I also think that the Greek myths refer somewhere
to the rock in the sky where the god's mansions are. I think you are
totally wrong.
>The importance of the physical
>locations of Delphi, Olympia, Nysa, Samothrace and countless other
>sacred sites in pagan Greece/Anatolia is proof of that.
What are you talking about? Your logic is baked.
>Your own
>reading of the myth is really no more relevant than Zecharia
>Sitchin's......
Which were kinda interesting, if essentially contrived...
Mike Cleven
On 25 Jun 1998 13:16:08 -0700, joshua geller
<dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>
>Myth by its very nature has many levels. It is possible to understand
>many of these levels and not understand many others. Myth is
>compressed; as much meaning as possible is put into a few words. What
>great artists do with myth is not necessarily itself myth. Plato (and,
>I think, Homer) used myth to make points.
Good grief. It is truly strange to hear you lecturing C. Boulis on
these points. You obviously don't know much about ancient Greece, and
are in a poort position to make pronouncements on the meaning or
origin of its mythologies and legends. Homer is the fount and
repository of much Greek myth, especially of the heroic age but also
of the origin and nature of the Gods; he was essentially a
mythologist, although that cheapens the immense scope of his work as
if all he did was story-tell. Indeed, he is in no small part
intrinsically a legend in and of himself. Plato, on the other hand,
was a rationalist who (as most Greek philosophers did) used myth
(traditional as well as invented) to express and explain his ideas.
He did not simply "make points". He elaborated upon myth, and
established new ideas using new myths........
>
>Homer, Hesiod, Pindar, Appollonius: all of these people were very much
>aware of the astronomical framework of myth. This is pretty obvious to
>me, anyway, but it would be.
Would be what? All ancient and pre-rational peoples had much more
appreciation of the night sky than any "modern" people do (I use
quotes because there are doubtless traditional peoples, in particular
rural ones, who remain intimately familiar with the night sky). But
to suggest that Homer, Hesiod, Pindar, and Appolonius (you forgot
Parmenides and Herakleitos, the latter being the most sky-oriented of
all Greek philosophers/poets) can be reduced to hidden astronomical
interpretations of myth is just bowdlerism. It's also obvious that
astrology remained an important part of human culture in the West
until the Age of Reason, and that Shakespeare and Marlowe were also
aware of "astronomy". That doesn't mean that Hamlet is an encrypted
code for some stellar mystery.
>I respectfully submit, Ma'am, that as knowledgeable as you undoubtedly
>are, becoming familiar with the astronomical stuff that Kice and I
>have touched upon will complete and perfect your knowledge.
C. Boulis is a professional archaeologist and classicist. You are
not. You are, however, evidently a neophyte in the area of ancient
myth and mythography, and something of a sophomoric pedant as well. I
suggest you go find some humble pie and eat a big slice of it before
you post any more pontifical nonsense here.
>
>> I've also had some experience with contemporary Greek "folklore"
>> versus ancient myth. Old habit, including Mythology die hard -
>> actually, they just don't change. The oral tradition is exceptionally
>> strong and it is interesting that the many views held by the
>> ancient sources are still maintained in local traditions (especially
>> in the more rural areas where I have worked). My grandmothers
>> would recite the Homeric Hymns (in Greek) to me as a child,
>> with some embellishments common to her village. The commonalities
>> and differences are quite fascinating.
>
>This surprises me not at all; there are, or were until recently,
>living oral traditions of Alexander the Great all through Asia.
This is such a banal statement that it is beneath further
comment......
Mike Cleven
On 25 Jun 1998 15:29:12 -0700, joshua geller
<dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
>> On 24 Jun 1998 10:59:23 -0700, joshua geller
>> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>
>> >It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
>
>> Who says _your_ reading of the myth is "real"?
>
>Dear Mr. Cleven,
>
>Ancient knowledge is holographic and experiential. That is, there are
>lots of little bits which are learned over time and integrated into a
>whole when the person learning has certain experiences.
This is pedantic claptrap. "Holographic" and "experiential" might be
nice-sounding words you've learned lately, but they are utterly modern
and unrelated to the nature of mythic awareness. Go read some Julian
Jaynes if you want to get into the psychography of myth.
>
>> All it is is a "modern
>> interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments"
>
>Not so.
In your arrogant opinion, perhaps. But in reality, your ideas are
banally modern in the extreme, and are apprently NOT based on a wide
range of ancient comments - since you have evidently read so little of
the ancient sources or of the extensive literature of commentary on
them.
Mike Cleven
On 25 Jun 1998 15:26:19 -0700, joshua geller
<dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
>> On 24 Jun 1998 10:40:56 -0700, joshua geller
>> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>
>> >They are all earthly reflections of the celestial Nysa.
>
>> Please cite a source (or at least a sketchy logic) for this "celestial
>> Nysa".......
>
>> _Not_ a modernist/revisionists reworking of the mythology, but an
>> actual classical or archaic reference thereto...........
>
>Dear Mr. Cleven,
>
>Do the work; you will know.
>
>Don't do the work, and me and a hundred others telling you won't
>convince you.
>
>You have the list of books?
Look, you moron. You're the one you made the claim that there is
evidence for a "celestial Nysa", and then you went on to say that you
hadn't got all the details worrked out, but you know that they're
there. Don't ask other people to do what you haven't done yourself.
I asked you a simple question - cite a source for the existence of
this "celestial Nysa", and make it an ancient source, not a citation
of one of the dimestore mythographies that you've read and which you
seem to think have made you an authority on classical mythology.
Again - _where_ is the celestial Nysa (your supposition of the summer
solstitial point on the ecliptic is nonsese)? What is your basis for
any such claim?
Count Pierre Bezuhov
Mike Cleven wrote:
>On 25 Jun 1998 10:19:58 -0700, joshua geller
><dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>
>>"Jeff Marshall" <mag...@flash.net> writes:
>>
>>> I'm bowled over with too many different projects right now to wade through
>>> the mythology and the analysis. So I'll ask, what is the significance ... in
>>> the, err 'a' technical vocabulary of myth sense of Nysa and what does this
>>> mean to people today. Also, where in the sky is the celestial Nysa?
>>
>>I don't know how to answer your first question.
>>
>>The answer to your second question is "I don't know yet". Nysa is a
>>mountain, so the temptation to make it "the highest mountain", that
>>is the June solstitial point, is strong. But what stars would it have
>>been associated with? I can't say right now.
>
>Well, you'd better, or your whole specious interpretation of the myth
>will look even shallower than it already does. The June solstitial
>point on the ecliptic is the boundary between Gemini and Cancer, as
>any good astrologer knows, and corresponds to the midsummer rites
>throughout pagan belief-cultures. The Dionysia was not one of these
>solstitial rites, however, which tends to work against your claim that
>your "celestial Nysa" is "the highest mountain", and therefore the
>solstitial point (which not even Olympus was equated with).
Your statement about the June solstitial point on the ecliptic being
between Gemini and Cancer is unquailfied as to *when* this is the
case. Assuming you mean in modern day, then it would certainly not be
the case 3000 years ago because of the Earth's precession. I don't
know why you put this in though --- or why I bother to answer it.
>The Greeks had no concept of celestial palaces for their gods, but
>rather montane ones - Olympus, Parnassus, etc. - which were viewed as
>physical reality, not mythical representations of somewhere beyond the
>physical cosmos. Your theories about Nysa are modernist and
>out-of-context......
I just flipped open my classical-myth-book, by Thomas Bulfinch, and
instantly found a referance to "heavenly dwellings" in the story of
Phaeton. Your ideas have basis, but are wrong.
Count Pierre Bezuhov
Count Pierre Bezuhov wrote:
>Mike Cleven wrote:
>
>>On 24 Jun 1998 10:59:23 -0700, joshua geller
>><dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>>
>>>cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
>>>> joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
>>>
>>>> : There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
>>>
>>>> Is the "sky" Nysa from an ancient historical source or modern
>>>> interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments?
>>>
>>>Dear Ms. Boulis,
>>>
>>>It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
>>
Count Pierre Bezuhov
Oops! Shit! I just reskimmed that myth of Phaeton and realized that
I completely misinterpreted it the first time I read it. The son of
Phaeton wasn't warned about landing on the circular heaven, but was
warned of keeping his course "while the sphere was revolving under"
him. Maybe y'all can see how I went wrong with that. I indeed took
an overly modern interpretation of it and thus misunderstood it.
So my evidence was crappy, but I don't revoke my case.
Stephen Capen
Mike Cleven wrote:
> On 25 Jun 1998 15:26:19 -0700, joshua geller
> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>
> >iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
> >> On 24 Jun 1998 10:40:56 -0700, joshua geller
> >> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >They are all earthly reflections of the celestial Nysa.
> >
> >> Please cite a source (or at least a sketchy logic) for this "celestial
> >> Nysa".......
> >
> >> _Not_ a modernist/revisionists reworking of the mythology, but an
> >> actual classical or archaic reference thereto...........
> >
> >Dear Mr. Cleven,
> >
> >Do the work; you will know.
> >
> >Don't do the work, and me and a hundred others telling you won't
> >convince you.
> >
> >You have the list of books?
>
> Look, you moron. <snip>
Blow it out your ass, you arrogant rube. This is not your personal abuse
station so show some respect or find another group to haunt.
joshua geller
iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
> On 25 Jun 1998 15:26:19 -0700, joshua geller
> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
> >iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
> >> On 24 Jun 1998 10:40:56 -0700, joshua geller
> >> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
> >> >They are all earthly reflections of the celestial Nysa.
> >> Please cite a source (or at least a sketchy logic) for this "celestial
> >> Nysa".......
> >> _Not_ a modernist/revisionists reworking of the mythology, but an
> >> actual classical or archaic reference thereto...........
> >Do the work; you will know.
> >Don't do the work, and me and a hundred others telling you won't
> >convince you.
> >You have the list of books?
> Look, you moron. You're the one you made the claim that there is
> evidence for a "celestial Nysa", and then you went on to say that you
> hadn't got all the details worrked out, but you know that they're
> there. Don't ask other people to do what you haven't done yourself.
Dear Mr. Cleven,
Your recent posts have been insulting and emotional.
If you really want to have a discussion with me, instead of
vituperating, I invite you to calm down.
Until you do this, I will not be responding to your posts.
Mike Cleven
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:51:36 GMT, psz...@smartt.com (Count Pierre
Bezuhov) wrote:
>Mike Cleven wrote:
>
>>On 24 Jun 1998 10:59:23 -0700, joshua geller
>><dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>>
>>>cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
>>>> joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
>>>
>>>> : There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
>>>
>>>> Is the "sky" Nysa from an ancient historical source or modern
>>>> interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments?
>>>
>>>Dear Ms. Boulis,
>>>
>>>It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
>>
>>Who says _your_ reading of the myth is "real"? All it is is a "modern
>>interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments"....and
>>perhaps not even based on a _wide_ range thereof. Nysa-on-earth is
>>the mythological Nysa, the same way the earthly Delphi is _the_
>>Delphi, the earthly Parnassus is _the_ Parnassus, the earthly Olympus
>>is _the_ Olympus, etc. etc. etc.
>
>Delphi was physically connected to the lands of the gods by way of the
>divine vapours that conveyed godlike thoughts. (this half-agrees with
>your interpretation, ie: the part that describes an inspired
>"character of being"). Parnassus, like many divine mountain tops, was
>characterized by its physical proximity to heaven.
And like many divine mountains in Greece, of actually being the
_physical_ home of the God (in this case, Apollo), not a
representation or earthly manifestation of it.
>
>
>
>>Greeks did not have a dichotomous
>>view of physical and "heavenly" reality; the immortals co-existed in
>>this world with humanity, transcending it by character of being rather
>>than by origin in another plane.
>
>Not really true. I'm no mythologer but off the top of my head I think
>Phaeton is described as riding Apollo's chariot of fire into the
>turbulent current of the ether and was warned that he wouldn't have
>the skill to land the chariot on the rotating circle of heaven. Even
>if this is referring to landing upside down on the solid firmament of
>the sky it still makes the distinction between Earth and heaven, where
>the gods may roam. I also think that the Greek myths refer somewhere
>to the rock in the sky where the god's mansions are. I think you are
>totally wrong.
I'm not sure of the original Greek for "rock in the sky", but that
would seem much more likely to be Olympus than anything else. The
reference to Phaeton you cite is where - in Homer? And what was the
original Greek?
>
>
>>The importance of the physical
>>locations of Delphi, Olympia, Nysa, Samothrace and countless other
>>sacred sites in pagan Greece/Anatolia is proof of that.
>
>What are you talking about? Your logic is baked.
And your support of josh geller is completely over-baked. Are you his
sophomore-year cult buddy or something?
>
>
>>Your own
>>reading of the myth is really no more relevant than Zecharia
>>Sitchin's......
>
>Which were kinda interesting, if essentially contrived...
Like your noble title, maybe. But if you're more prepared to think
that Sitchin or pseudo-Sitchin views are more valid than those of
professional classicists, then you're just another dimestore loony
anyway. If you guys want to keep on going on about this nonsense,
please stop cross-posting into soc.history.ancient, which is a
legitimate history group.
Mike Cleven
On 25 Jun 1998 15:31:58 -0700, joshua geller
<dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
>> On 25 Jun 1998 10:19:58 -0700, joshua geller
>> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>
>> >I don't know how to answer your first question.
>
>> >The answer to your second question is "I don't know yet". Nysa is a
>> >mountain, so the temptation to make it "the highest mountain", that
>> >is the June solstitial point, is strong. But what stars would it have
>> >been associated with? I can't say right now.
>
>> Well, you'd better, or your whole specious interpretation of the myth
>> will look even shallower than it already does. The June solstitial
>> point on the ecliptic is the boundary between Gemini and Cancer, as
>> any good astrologer knows, and corresponds to the midsummer rites
>> throughout pagan belief-cultures. The Dionysia was not one of these
>> solstitial rites, however, which tends to work against your claim that
>> your "celestial Nysa" is "the highest mountain", and therefore the
>> solstitial point (which not even Olympus was equated with).
>
>Dear Mr. Cleven,
>
>Thank you for sharing your opinions with me, and your observations. I
>am, of course, aware of the present location of the June solstitial
>point.
Then why did you say: "But what stars would it have
been associated with? I can't say right now."????????
>
>> The Greeks had no concept of celestial palaces for their gods,
>
>How do you know this, Mr. Cleven?
They had concepts of montane residences for their gods, which were
physical places, albeit with transcendent forms only visible to divine
eyes. But I recall no references in Homer or anywhere else to
celestial palaces, i..e. ones in the stars. Transcendent being,
certainly, but IIRC there's nothing even resembling Hindu or Norse
divine "worlds". The Gods were part of _this_ world, not another.
>
>> but
>> rather montane ones - Olympus, Parnassus, etc. - which were viewed as
>> physical reality, not mythical representations of somewhere beyond the
>> physical cosmos. Your theories about Nysa are modernist and
>> out-of-context......
>
>Once again, sir, thank you for sharing your opinions.
They're more correct than your own claims to authority in this area.
Again, your own theories about Nysa are modernist and unrelated to the
way Greeks thought or to any of the surviving mythological sources.
>my very best to you,
Cut it with the "kill 'em with kindness" thing. It just makes you
sound even more partronizing than you have already been to C. Boulis.
Mike Cleven
On 26 Jun 1998 05:49:27 -0700, joshua geller
<dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
>> On 25 Jun 1998 15:26:19 -0700, joshua geller
>> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>> >iro...@bigfoot.com (Mike Cleven) writes:
>> >> On 24 Jun 1998 10:40:56 -0700, joshua geller
>> >> <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>
>> >> >They are all earthly reflections of the celestial Nysa.
>
>> >> Please cite a source (or at least a sketchy logic) for this "celestial
>> >> Nysa".......
>
>> >> _Not_ a modernist/revisionists reworking of the mythology, but an
>> >> actual classical or archaic reference thereto...........
>
>> >Do the work; you will know.
>
>> >Don't do the work, and me and a hundred others telling you won't
>> >convince you.
>
>> >You have the list of books?
>
>> Look, you moron. You're the one you made the claim that there is
>> evidence for a "celestial Nysa", and then you went on to say that you
>> hadn't got all the details worrked out, but you know that they're
>> there. Don't ask other people to do what you haven't done yourself.
>
>Dear Mr. Cleven,
>
>Your recent posts have been insulting and emotional.
Emotional? No - not emotional. I've been pointing out what a
hypocrite and half-baked concocter of childish theories you have been.
Your own condescensions to C. Boulis, who knows far more than you ever
will, has been quite insulting in its own right. And arrogance -
which you have aplenty - is also an emotion. And one deserving of
contempt.
>
>If you really want to have a discussion with me, instead of
>vituperating, I invite you to calm down.
>
>Until you do this, I will not be responding to your posts.
>
Hallelujah. But don't expect that this means I'll stop criticizing
yours. If you don't want to hear from me again, stop cross-posting
into soc.history.ancient, which has no room for sophomoric reworkings
of history to justify some modernist "the Gods came from the stars"
childishness..
Chrisso Boulis
joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
: cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
: > joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
: Myth by its very nature has many levels.
This is true. Myth is history, Myth is philosophy, Myth is literature
Myth is art. It is religion. It is comedy. It is tragedy. It is
entertainment. It is transient. It is tangible.
It is all of the above. It is none of the above. It is a mix of
the above.
What I find distressing is that there is a tendancy to abstract
mythology into one area (invariably philosophy) and strip it of
all tangible elements (historicity, geography, iconography, etc.).
In doing this you do not get any understanding of what is really
going on.
One of the best treatments of Greek Mythology is H. J. Rose's
"Handbook of Greek Mythology." It is comprehensive in its
treament or viewing of the topic. It was one fatal flaw - it
was originally written in the 1920's - long before the
decipherment of Linear B. Hence there is a proliferation of
"foreign" deities - Dionysis, Ares, Hephaistos, etc. As such,
Rose expands his sights to include origins for these so-called
foreign with neighboring cultures and attempts to understand
the transmission of myth across cultures and the implications
thereof. Dionysis as a foreigner who came to the Greek
world bringing the technology of wine making with him to
the Greek people falls into this thinking. Unfortunately,
it is quite dated and we are still stuck with it. I have
yet to find a suitable substitute for Rose. Most of my
collegues simply wing it when they teach mythology: juggling
between the myth, the visual representation, the practical
(cult and urban) applications and the "non-indigenous"
(i.e. non-ancient greek) interpretation of myth. I tend to
emphasise the visual and practical aspects with respect to
the gods; and the sociology and psychology with repect to
mortals in myth, while someone I know is almost exclusively
dealing with the later and barely touching on the former
aspects. There is only so much you can do in six weeks.
C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
Chrisso Boulis
ypv4sx9...@shell5.ba.best.com>
<3592b2d3...@news.bc.rogers.wave.ca>
<35936509....@news.smartt.com>
Distribution:
Count Pierre Bezuhov (psz...@smartt.com) wrote:
: Mike Cleven wrote:
: I just flipped open my classical-myth-book, by Thomas Bulfinch, and
: instantly found a referance to "heavenly dwellings" in the story of
: Phaeton. Your ideas have basis, but are wrong.
Thomas Bullfinch "put together" his books on mythology in the late
1800's. I believe that the Graeco-Roman chapters date to c 1865.
Furthermore, they were meant to be storybooks for children. Nice
artwork, nice "constructed" stories, but NOT accurate translations
of texts. Filled with "Victorian" editing and errors!!!
Ditto with D'Aulieres book.
Edith Hamilton and Robert Graves mythology books were originally
written with college students in mind and therefore were less "PG."
Then someone realized that they had flaws, so they were down graded
for high school use, with many college professors using H. J. Rose's
Handbook instead.
Anyone got any other "standards" they use, like, dislike, loathe
with a passion???
C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
joshua geller
joshua geller <dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> writes:
> The astronomical stuff is a deep, deep level that not too many people
> have paid much attention to in recent centuries. It's not astronomy or
> astrology in the modern senses of those terms: it history understood
> as reflected in, and recorded using the movements of the planets
> across, the background of the stars.
the last sentence should read "it is history understood as reflected
in, and recorded using the movements of the planets across, the
background of the stars".
A corrected version has been posted and the erroneous one canceled.
josh
joshua geller
cbo...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
> joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
> : cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
> : > joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
> : Myth by its very nature has many levels.
> This is true. Myth is history, Myth is philosophy, Myth is literature
> Myth is art. It is religion. It is comedy. It is tragedy. It is
> entertainment. It is transient. It is tangible.
> It is all of the above. It is none of the above. It is a mix of
> the above.
Dear Ms. Boulis,
All of this is very true. It is all of these things at once; It is
also a peculiar type of astronomy. It is compressed. A myth that takes
a paragraph to transmit can be exegesized almost endlessly.
Myth is the way vital information is transmitted through time.
The levels you mention are all well-known. I daresay you know a few of
them better than I do.
The astronomical stuff is a deep, deep level that not too many people
have paid much attention to in recent centuries. It's not astronomy or
astrology in the modern senses of those terms: it is history understood
as reflected in, and recorded using the movements of the planets
across, the background of the stars.
It is a very old level, and it is universal.
> What I find distressing is that there is a tendancy to abstract
> mythology into one area (invariably philosophy) and strip it of
> all tangible elements (historicity, geography, iconography, etc.).
> In doing this you do not get any understanding of what is really
> going on.
Heh. In my experience the psychological interpretations are the ones
that get the most attention. Invariably after the manner of Jung or
Campbell. Julian Jaynes also gets a of attention.
> One of the best treatments of Greek Mythology is H. J. Rose's
> "Handbook of Greek Mythology." It is comprehensive in its
> treament or viewing of the topic. It was one fatal flaw - it
> was originally written in the 1920's - long before the
> decipherment of Linear B. Hence there is a proliferation of
> "foreign" deities - Dionysis, Ares, Hephaistos, etc. As such,
> Rose expands his sights to include origins for these so-called
> foreign with neighboring cultures and attempts to understand
> the transmission of myth across cultures and the implications
> thereof. Dionysis as a foreigner who came to the Greek
> world bringing the technology of wine making with him to
> the Greek people falls into this thinking.
Possibly so.
I don't know that He brought wine-making with him. He might have.
Read the Gospels, sometime, and imagine what effect someone like
Jesus, with his traveling miracle show and his entourage of fifty or
sixty hippies would have had on a society that was neither as populous
nor as organized as Roman society. Say in a city of five hundred or so
where the King maybe had fifty trained fighters who were subject to
his orders; a city that might have existed in 10,000 BC or so.
Someone like that comes into the town square and announces that he
is god, and proceeds to do miracles. What would the effect of someone
like this be, do you think?
I say this with the utmost respect, Ma'am.
Your work sounds very worthwhile and interesting; I wish you the best
of luck with it.
most sincerely,
josh
Kim Burkard
In article 1...@netnews.upenn.edu, cbo...@mail2.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
>joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
>: Myth by its very nature has many levels.
>
>This is true. Myth is history, Myth is philosophy, Myth is literature
>Myth is art. It is religion. It is comedy. It is tragedy. It is
>entertainment. It is transient. It is tangible.
>
>It is all of the above. It is none of the above. It is a mix of
>the above.
>
Agreed. This is why I find it difficult, perhaps impossible, to
come up with a definition of myth that everyone (let alone just
myself) can agree with.
I've seen many in the past define mythology to be something along
the lines of: the stories that explain the world about us which
are peopled with gods/goddesses and other supernatural beings. This
definition has always seemed pale and shallow to me. It misses,
in my opinion, the more ephemeral or intangible qualities of myth
- some of which are alluded to above.
Follow-ups modified to alt.mythology.
-kim
---
Kimberly Burkard | _ Everything I needed to know in life, I
Eastman Kodak Company| _____C .._. learned from my ferret:
Rochester, New York | ____/ \___/ Frolic and dance for joy often, have
bur...@kodak.com |<____/\_---\_\ no fear or worries, and enjoy life.
Kim Burkard
>1800's. I believe that the Graeco-Roman chapters date to c 1865.
>Furthermore, they were meant to be storybooks for children. Nice
>artwork, nice "constructed" stories, but NOT accurate translations
>of texts. Filled with "Victorian" editing and errors!!!
>
>Ditto with D'Aulieres book.
>
>Edith Hamilton and Robert Graves mythology books were originally
>written with college students in mind and therefore were less "PG."
>Then someone realized that they had flaws, so they were down graded
>for high school use, with many college professors using H. J. Rose's
>Handbook instead.
>
>Anyone got any other "standards" they use, like, dislike, loathe
>with a passion???
We've had loads of discussions in alt.mythology in the past about
many books and authors. Out of the authors mentioned above, I've
seen the most objections raised about Edith Hamilton's _Mythology_.
Most of the comments are in reference to the Victorian-style
snipping of all the saucier bits of Greek mythology. (Now where's
the fun in that? ;)
I personally find Hamilton's work dry and very uninteresting. I was
already quite familar with Greek mythology by the time I hit junior
high and highschool where Hamilton was used for classes. To say
I didn't like the tome chosen for the class was an understatement.
I wondered why the teachers would choose such a lifeless book with
which to plague students when better books were out there. I realized
the answer much later when I realized/learned she had "PG-rated" the
stories.
Perhaps better suggestions could be made to highschool teachers.
More young people and students might actually **enjoy** reading
mythology if they had a better written book to read from.
Follow-ups set to alt.mythology.
Carl KICE Brown
Other posters have pointed out the problems with Bulfinch's
retellings. The handbooks I've used, jointly, since highschool many
years ago are H.J. Rose's and Kerenyi's two volumes -- Gods of the
Greeks
and Heroes of the Greeks -- the latter H.J. Rose translated. --
Lately
I've added to those Timothy Gantz's Early Greek Mythology -- which
follows
the development of mythic themes and personae over time in literary
and
graphic works.
Your mentioning of Phaethon (son of Helios BTW) reminded me of
some things I just read in that STAR MYTHS book about which I posted
earlier this week -- that textual information about the constellations
and
the celestial sphere tend to orient from outside the sphere -- looking
back
toward earth, even tho most star maps orient from "terra firma" inside
the
sphere. I'd also checked into the discussion of the milky way in the
book
I'd mentioned -- one of the aetiological myths for that was that it
represented
the fiery damage produced by Phaethon's runaway course.
BTW -- I felt hesitant enough about spelling the name Phaethon, when
you had
used Phaeton, to check in my dictionary at work -- found out that
Phaeton "is the
French form of Phaethon. C'est bon.
--
"As no two people see the same
view along the Way, all trips
from here to there are imaginary;
all truth is a tale I am telling myself."
------ Brion Gysin in "The Process"
Kice Brown
Lone Tree & Iowa City
Count Pierre Bezuhov
Mike Cleven wrote:
>On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:51:36 GMT, psz...@smartt.com (Count Pierre
>Bezuhov) wrote:
>
>>Mike Cleven wrote:
>>
>>>On 24 Jun 1998 10:59:23 -0700, joshua geller
>>><dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>cbo...@mail1.sas.upenn.edu (Chrisso Boulis) writes:
>>>>> joshua geller (dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> : There are lots of nysas on the earth; there is one in the sky.
>>>>
>>>>> Is the "sky" Nysa from an ancient historical source or modern
>>>>> interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments?
>>>>
>>>>Dear Ms. Boulis,
>>>>
>>>>It is the "real" Nysa. It is based on my reading of myth.
>>>
>>>Who says _your_ reading of the myth is "real"? All it is is a "modern
>>>interpretation based on a wide range of ancient comments"....and
>>>perhaps not even based on a _wide_ range thereof. Nysa-on-earth is
>>>the mythological Nysa, the same way the earthly Delphi is _the_
>>>Delphi, the earthly Parnassus is _the_ Parnassus, the earthly Olympus
>>>is _the_ Olympus, etc. etc. etc.
>>
>>Delphi was physically connected to the lands of the gods by way of the
>>divine vapours that conveyed godlike thoughts. (this half-agrees with
>>your interpretation, ie: the part that describes an inspired
>>"character of being"). Parnassus, like many divine mountain tops, was
>>characterized by its physical proximity to heaven.
>
>And like many divine mountains in Greece, of actually being the
>_physical_ home of the God (in this case, Apollo), not a
>representation or earthly manifestation of it.
Fair enough.
>I'm not sure of the original Greek for "rock in the sky", but that
>would seem much more likely to be Olympus than anything else.
Also fair enough.
>The reference to Phaeton you cite is where - in Homer?
>And what was the original Greek?
Well, you've called me a few levels deeper than I can go on this. My
source was secondary, The Golden Age of Myth & Legend, Thomas
Bulfinch, my revised edition was published in 1993 though Bulfinch's
original was in the mid-nineteenth century.
>>>The importance of the physical
>>>locations of Delphi, Olympia, Nysa, Samothrace and countless other
>>>sacred sites in pagan Greece/Anatolia is proof of that.
>>
>>What are you talking about? Your logic is baked.
>
>And your support of josh geller is completely over-baked. Are you his
>sophomore-year cult buddy or something?
Ha ha. At least my comment was still on topic. :)
>>>Your own
>>>reading of the myth is really no more relevant than Zecharia
>>>Sitchin's......
>>
>>Which were kinda interesting, if essentially contrived...
>
>Like your noble title, maybe.
By Tolstoy, not me. Anyone who has read War & Peace will find this
apparent. I'm not trying to fool anybody.
>But if you're more prepared to think
>that Sitchin or pseudo-Sitchin views are more valid than those of
>professional classicists,
Oop! Let me stop you right there, mon ami! I would never say any
such thing.
>then you're just another dimestore loony
>anyway. If you guys want to keep on going on about this nonsense,
>please stop cross-posting into soc.history.ancient, which is a
>legitimate history group.
blah blah blah. :) I haven't crossposted anything (yet). I read
and post to soc.history.ancient exclusively for the exact reason you
cite. Have I posted anything off-charter yet?
Regards, (extended to you, another legitimate classicist who hasn't
the bother to even add a short, denouncing post to my agonized
requests in the Phaestos disk thread...)
Count Pierre Bezuhov
I agree with almost everything you wrote (the factual content anyway.
The tiny bits that I didn't are mentioned below:
Mike Cleven wrote:
> . . .
>to suggest that Homer, Hesiod, Pindar, and Appolonius (you forgot
>Parmenides and Herakleitos, the latter being the most sky-oriented of
>all Greek philosophers/poets) can be reduced to hidden astronomical
>interpretations of myth is just bowdlerism.
Josh didn't imply that it could. He wrote clearly that myth can be
seen on many levels. I haven't a personal stake in this, just
pointing out error.
>It's also obvious that
>astrology remained an important part of human culture in the West
>until the Age of Reason, and that Shakespeare and Marlowe were also
>aware of "astronomy". That doesn't mean that Hamlet is an encrypted
>code for some stellar mystery.
>>I respectfully submit, Ma'am, that as knowledgeable as you undoubtedly
>>are, becoming familiar with the astronomical stuff that Kice and I
>>have touched upon will complete and perfect your knowledge.
>
>C. Boulis is a professional archaeologist and classicist. You are
>not.
:)
>You are, however, evidently a neophyte in the area of ancient
>myth and mythography, and something of a sophomoric pedant as well. I
>suggest you go find some humble pie and eat a big slice of it before
>you post any more pontifical nonsense here.
> . . .
You don't come across as very humble yourself, Monsieur. :)
Count Pierre Bezuhov
Chrisso Boulis wrote:
>Thomas Bullfinch "put together" his books on mythology in the late
>1800's. I believe that the Graeco-Roman chapters date to c 1865.
>Furthermore, they were meant to be storybooks for children. Nice
>artwork, nice "constructed" stories, but NOT accurate translations
>of texts. Filled with "Victorian" editing and errors!!! . . .
I, of course, immediately see how right you are.
I would be interested how else the words "heavenly dwellings" can be
translated. The context is quite clear in the myth. Father warns his
son: ". . . go not too high, or you will burn the heavenly dwellings,
nor too low, or you will set the earth on fire . ." I have a
fifficult time seeing a drastically different translation for this,
but could you point me to one that has this story in it so I can
quickly find it before this little point is lost to forceful ad
hominem insults.
Mike Cleven
On Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:18:00 GMT, psz...@smartt.com (Count Pierre
Bezuhov) wrote:
>Mike Cleven wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 08:51:36 GMT, psz...@smartt.com (Count Pierre
>>Bezuhov) wrote:
<snip>
>>>>Your own
>>>>reading of the myth is really no more relevant than Zecharia
>>>>Sitchin's......
>>>
>>>Which were kinda interesting, if essentially contrived...
>>
>>Like your noble title, maybe.
>
>By Tolstoy, not me. Anyone who has read War & Peace will find this
>apparent. I'm not trying to fool anybody.
How so if you're using a literary pseudonym........granted, someone
who's actually read all of War and Peace deserves some credit; but
don't assume everyone has (or should have). But you are essentially
admitting that your title was contrived, i.e. not real as it might
have been (in which case it's perfectly valid). But even if it's of
Tolstoy's concoction, it still sounds somewhat pretentious, unless
there are some allusions associated with the eponymous character that
the rest of the world should know. If we all started using noble
titles, UseNet would sound even sillier than much of it already does.
>
>
>>But if you're more prepared to think
>>that Sitchin or pseudo-Sitchin views are more valid than those of
>>professional classicists,
>
>Oop! Let me stop you right there, mon ami! I would never say any
>such thing.
Note my use of the word "if". Didn't you see it? But it _does_ sound
like you're intent on supporting geller and his quasi-Sitchinite view
of "gods in the stars", which is why I made the above suggestion; if
you weren't meaning to support such a view you should say so instead
of engaging in rhetorical defenses for indefensible ideas.
>
>
>>then you're just another dimestore loony
>>anyway. If you guys want to keep on going on about this nonsense,
>>please stop cross-posting into soc.history.ancient, which is a
>>legitimate history group.
>
>blah blah blah. :) I haven't crossposted anything (yet). I read
>and post to soc.history.ancient exclusively for the exact reason you
>cite. Have I posted anything off-charter yet?
This thread began in alt.archaeology, alt.history.ancient-worlds,
alt.mythology,and soc.history.ancient; I don't know who originally
cross-posted it. Originally it had to do with whether or not
Dionysios was among the original Olympian gods, contrary to the
formerly conventional view that his cult had arrived from Asia (or
somewhere) with the vine and the art of wine-making; from there it was
spun off (by geller) into a "Nysa is not the real Nysa, which is in
the stars" - an argument which he has continued to make with
absolutely zilch supporting evidence (other than his speculations,
which he has announced as facts because he thought of them). He's
off-charter as far as sha goes; support for him would, to me, fall
into the same category.
>
>Regards, (extended to you, another legitimate classicist who hasn't
>the bother to even add a short, denouncing post to my agonized
>requests in the Phaestos disk thread...)
I don't read all threads in this group; haven't poked into the
Phaestos disk thread. I did buy a Phaestos disk keychain in the Plaka
last week during a business trip to Athens, though........
Ronin
This is going to sound really snooty, but honestly, don't use Thomas
Bullfinch or Edith Hamilton for sources- they were concerned with
standardizing myths, collecting the "classical cannon" into an accessible
form..not careful accuracy and, most importantly, not faithfulness to the
sparseness of the original sources..the amount of embellishing in their
"translations" makes them largely useless..for that matter, be very careful
of Joseph Campbell (you know, "Romantic love was invented by minstrels in
the 14th century" and other ludicrous statements that seem sensible because
Prof. Campbell is saying them), and whenever possible, ignore Hesiod too-
remember, he's the easy way out, because he listed everything for us, and we
actually have his work, but he was a lying, Zeus-worshipping sexist twit who
warped everything he wrote to make Zeus look good- no matter how implausible
it was. He is a primary source, but those myths are MUCH older than him,
and what he did to the original sources can be compared to Disney's careful
and loving treatment of legends.
My opinion- take it or leave it..
deepn...@my-dejanews.com
In article <899090440.589139@michelob>,
Yes, but you've got to start somewhere. Myths and history are always 'false'
about two seconds after the fact. It's the metaphor that carries on and
should be paid attention to. --deepneptune
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
deepn...@my-dejanews.com
Chris Camfield
On Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:07:28 -0300, "Ronin" <ro...@sprint.ca> wrote:
[chop]
>and whenever possible, ignore Hesiod too-
>remember, he's the easy way out, because he listed everything for us, and we
>actually have his work, but he was a lying, Zeus-worshipping sexist twit who
>warped everything he wrote to make Zeus look good- no matter how implausible
>it was. He is a primary source, but those myths are MUCH older than him,
>and what he did to the original sources can be compared to Disney's careful
>and loving treatment of legends.
Ronin, can you substantiate this claim? Obviously he was a
misogynist, but twisting the myths? We don't exactly have an
abundance of sources earlier than Hesiod... how do you know?
CC
Count Pierre Bezuhov
Mike Cleven wrote:
>>>Like your noble title, maybe.
>>
>>By Tolstoy, not me. Anyone who has read War & Peace will find this
>>apparent. I'm not trying to fool anybody.
>
>How so if you're using a literary pseudonym........granted, someone
>who's actually read all of War and Peace deserves some credit; but
>don't assume everyone has (or should have).
Granted, you detected my subtle inferance that *everybody* should be
familiar with War & Peace. Silly me. :) This is a sort of joking
pretention one might notice with me.
>But you are essentially
>admitting that your title was contrived,
Duh!
>i.e. not real as it might
>have been (in which case it's perfectly valid). But even if it's of
>Tolstoy's concoction, it still sounds somewhat pretentious,
Even I've been surprised by how prete4ntious it comes off. Not really
intended, except perhaps as whimsical irony, my being utterly poor
lately, and so far from being "noble" I don't even have a known
lineage because I was adopted. (as was Pierre Bezuhov in W&P)
>unless
>there are some allusions associated with the eponymous character that
>the rest of the world should know.
This would be an ideal time to launch into my clever explanation of
why I relate so clearly to the title character of W&P but since I'm
cancelling my internet connection and will be escaping from this group
before I really get started I feel I shouldn't waste anyone's time.
>If we all started using noble
>titles, UseNet would sound even sillier than much of it already does.
My electronic forum dalliances were on a BBS where it was essentially
the rule and not the exception to have colourful handle. At least I
didn't use my second choice which was Peter the Grape. I figured that
one's probably been used into the ground already.
>>
>>
>>>But if you're more prepared to think
>>>that Sitchin or pseudo-Sitchin views are more valid than those of
>>>professional classicists,
>>
>>Oop! Let me stop you right there, mon ami! I would never say any
>>such thing.
>
>Note my use of the word "if". Didn't you see it?
This argumentative forum suits you, mon tres charment ami.
>But it _does_ sound
>like you're intent on supporting geller and his quasi-Sitchinite view
>of "gods in the stars", which is why I made the above suggestion;
I like to here debate carried on as objectively as possible. Mr.
Geller was making his broad, speculative claim, and you took it upon
yourself to address it critically. I had not interest in delving into
criticizing his idea myself, though I was somewhat interested in the
ideas expressed. I considered myself more capable and useful at
finding fault in your line of argument. And the more general and ad
hominem your argument became the more I found I had to say. Debate
protocol and all, you know.
>if
>you weren't meaning to support such a view you should say so instead
>of engaging in rhetorical defenses for indefensible ideas.
I was *not* supporting it. Just trying to give it a fair hearing. A
rhetorical defense is one not asking an answer. I am always eager to
hear a legitimate answer. None of my comments were rhetorical.
>>>then you're just another dimestore loony
>>>anyway.
$%*!
>>>If you guys want to keep on going on about this nonsense,
>>>please stop cross-posting into soc.history.ancient, which is a
>>>legitimate history group.
>>
>>blah blah blah. :) I haven't crossposted anything (yet). I read
>>and post to soc.history.ancient exclusively for the exact reason you
>>cite. Have I posted anything off-charter yet?
>
>This thread began in alt.archaeology, alt.history.ancient-worlds,
>alt.mythology,and soc.history.ancient; I don't know who originally
>cross-posted it. Originally it had to do with whether or not
>Dionysios was among the original Olympian gods, contrary to the
>formerly conventional view that his cult had arrived from Asia (or
>somewhere) with the vine and the art of wine-making; from there it was
>spun off (by geller) into a "Nysa is not the real Nysa, which is in
>the stars" - an argument which he has continued to make with
>absolutely zilch supporting evidence (other than his speculations,
>which he has announced as facts because he thought of them). He's
>off-charter as far as sha goes; support for him would, to me, fall
>into the same category.
a) If your valid arguments can't stand on their own then thats your
fault, and if you can't make your point clear to the reader without ad
hominem then that's your weakness. Don't blame me.
b) I noticed all of your complaints about Josh without your mention.
What, do you need emotional support, some kind words? Argument must
stand on its own merits. If you don't know how to ask for evidence,
and properly denounce someone so the general reader is informed
(WITHOUT RESORTING TO AD HOMINEM ARGUMENTS) then, once again, that's
your problem.
c) I didn't "support" him, except by absence of criticism. It's not
my fault if you need "support".
>I don't read all threads in this group; haven't poked into the
>Phaestos disk thread. I did buy a Phaestos disk keychain in the Plaka
>last week during a business trip to Athens, though........
Yer vindicated. :)
TO ALL THE ASSHOLES who read but didn't respond to that thread, you
shall be rewarded by my prolonged (probably permanent) absence on
usenet. <the cheer goes up>
I used to read and post on sci.archaeology and there was always a
healthy quantity of response. (even occasional quality) But now I
haven't the patience/time to wade through all that quack crap floating
around endlessly there, so I moved to soc.history.ancient in the hopes
of superior qualified discussion. Unfortunately I've realized that
everybody who is actually intelligent has better things to do than to
spend all of their time on usenet, so I've gotten no satisfaction here
either. Fuck usenet then.
It used to be sweet though. <sniff>
Mike, you can have the last word if you like. I'll read without
responding if it goes up before the 1st of July.
Regards. (if you believe that)
Rick Ong
>Note my use of the word "if". Didn't you see it? But it _does_ sound
>like you're intent on supporting geller and his quasi-Sitchinite view
>you weren't meaning to support such a view you should say so instead
>of engaging in rhetorical defenses for indefensible ideas.
If you claim yourselves to be educated researchers, then let's all be
civilised and accept each others ideas.
Be more open minded because the truth is probably more far fetched than you
think.
No one reading this was alive during the ancient period (at least in the
current physical form).
Therefore no one has the right to say that "Oh, what do you think? This is
some new age newsgroup? God in
the stars!? Ha hahaha!!" or "This is just a modern interpretation of ancient
records". Modernisation simply
means that more possibilities of thought are opened up.
If you don't understand what I'm saying I don't blame you. You are free to
mail me for explainations. I am
strong in my belief.
>The thunderbolt steers all things.
> - Herakleitos
Might I ask you what is your interpretation of this?
Rick Ong
Rick Ong
>Emotional? No - not emotional. I've been pointing out what a
>hypocrite and half-baked concocter of childish theories you have been.
>Your own condescensions to C. Boulis, who knows far more than you ever
>will, has been quite insulting in its own right. And arrogance -
>which you have aplenty - is also an emotion. And one deserving of
>contempt.
>>
>>If you really want to have a discussion with me, instead of
>>vituperating, I invite you to calm down.
>>
>>Until you do this, I will not be responding to your posts.
Josh,
I have to agree with Mike here. If you have hard evidence or facts about
Nysa being "celestial" then
please post them for all of us to share.
Otherwise, get your facts right first before you make claim. A claim without
proof is just a pack of lies.
I hope I wasn't being "emotional". I am just stating my opinions, so don't
use this to put me down. Answer
the question.
Rick Ong
Carl KICE Brown
Count Pierre Bezuhov wrote:
>
>>
> My electronic forum dalliances were on a BBS where it was essentially
> the rule and not the exception to have colourful handle. At least I
> didn't use my second choice which was Peter the Grape. I figured that
> one's probably been used into the ground already.
>
discussion of the Arrival of Dionysos
Looking forward to your return one of these days.
joshua geller
"Rick Ong" <tel...@pacific.net.sg> writes:
> I have to agree with Mike here. If you have hard evidence or facts about
> Nysa being "celestial" then please post them for all of us to share.
Dear Mr. Ong,
The knowledge is experiential.
I am of the opinion that an unbiased study of the three books listed
at the bottom of this post, and the use of a star map (or even
observation of the actual sky), will provide the necessary experiences
to understand this knowledge. Of course, this knowledge is not only in
these three books; many people have held it and continue to hold it
without ever having heard of these books.
> Otherwise, get your facts right first before you make claim. A claim without
> proof is just a pack of lies.
I have not made any claims. I am stating an opinion, if you like.
> I hope I wasn't being "emotional". I am just stating my opinions, so don't
> use this to put me down. Answer the question.
The three books are:
"Stairways to the Stars" by Anthony Aveni
"The Secret of the Incas" by William Sullivan
"Hamlet's Mill" by Giorgio di Santillana and Hertha von Dechend.
Why don't you read them? It should take you something like a year. You
might need to read the last one more than once. If you still disagree
with me when you are finished reading them, at least we will have a
common vocabulary which we can use to disagree.
my very best,
josh
Mike Cleven
>>Note my use of the word "if". Didn't you see it? But it _does_ sound
>>like you're intent on supporting geller and his quasi-Sitchinite view
>>of "gods in the stars", which is why I made the above suggestion; if
>>you weren't meaning to support such a view you should say so instead
>>of engaging in rhetorical defenses for indefensible ideas.
>
>If you claim yourselves to be educated researchers, then let's all be
>civilised and accept each others ideas.
>Be more open minded because the truth is probably more far fetched than you
>think.
>
>No one reading this was alive during the ancient period (at least in the
>current physical form).
>Therefore no one has the right to say that "Oh, what do you think? This is
>some new age newsgroup? God in
>the stars!? Ha hahaha!!" or "This is just a modern interpretation of ancient
>records". Modernisation simply
>means that more possibilities of thought are opened up.
>
>If you don't understand what I'm saying I don't blame you. You are free to
>mail me for explainations. I am
>strong in my belief.
So are fundamentalists and Sitchinites and scientologists. Doesn't
make them any more credible, however.
Impositions of modern ideas on ancient beliefs - on ancient reality -
are not relevant to the discussion at hand - which was about Dionysios
having been discovered to be much more ancient in the Greek pantheon
than was formerly believed. The superimposition/redirection of the
debate with the idea "was Nysa a place in the stars" was just silly,
although its perpetrator is apparently determined to propagate this
idea as widely as possible, without any kind of valid evidence or
argument. If you wish to join him, that's your problem.
>
>
>>The thunderbolt steers all things.
>> - Herakleitos
>Might I ask you what is your interpretation of this?
Don't be so disingenuous. How many pages do you want? Herakleitos'
concept of Zeus related to "being" and to the fire of awareness,
transformation, etc. etc. etc. The direction of the world by divine
fire (call it quantum energy or whatever else you need to in modern
terminology) is a simple enough idea, although Herakleitos' laconic
comments always carry layers of meaning. I'm at work and don't have
time to give you a lesson in Herakleitian philosophy.......
Mike Cleven
http://home.bc.rogers.wave.ca/ironmtn/
Carl KICE Brown
The question is whether the phrase "heavenly dwellings" is an
invention of Bullfinch or as you suggest, a phrase in his retellings
that actually translated wording in some ancient text.
Carl KICE Brown
John Adcox
Does anyone happen to know i
--
John Adcox
Visit My Web Site!
http://jadcox.home.mindspring.com
King Arthur, Mythology and Folklore,
Books and literature, resources for writers,
Entertainment, the Arts, Music,
Religion, Philosophy, fantasy and more!
Carl KICE Brown
Mike Cleven wrote:
>
>
> Impositions of modern ideas on ancient beliefs - on ancient reality -
> are not relevant to the discussion at hand - which was about Dionysios
> having been discovered to be much more ancient in the Greek pantheon
> than was formerly believed. The superimposition/redirection of the
> debate with the idea "was Nysa a place in the stars" was just silly,
> although its perpetrator is apparently determined to propagate this
> idea as widely as possible, without any kind of valid evidence or
> argument. If you wish to join him, that's your problem.
> >
Huh? The evidence or argument is to be found in the books that Josh
has kindly cited twice now during the metastasis of this thread.
Sullivan's book -- which is currently in paperback -- is almost a case
study of his application of the methodology to the mythology on the
Andes. As such it should establish and validate the process someone
interested in establishing the celestial locus of Nysa would
undertake.
Josh certainly is an enthusiastic disciple and apostle of Dechend's
methodology, and as such is prone to base specific claims on the
general validity of the methodology. I expect that's what has
occurred in this case -- the generalization that terrestrial locales
referenced in specific mythological contexts have a celestial
counterpart that can be identified by a study of the specific
mythological contexts is most likely the basis for his comment about
Nysa having a celestial counterpart. Actually identifying that
counterpart is meat for a Master's thesis or doctoral dissertation
such as Sullivan's treatise.
If Josh was inclined to take the time -- and I don't see why he
should, having cited the sources -- to quote from these books he could
certainly identify the celestial loci of the myths discussed therein.
BTW, I WOULD be interested in any references to book reviews or other
treatises that may offer valid critiques of these books -- in other
words a "clash of ideas".
phx...@pop.phnx.uswest.net
Rick Ong wrote:
> >Note my use of the word "if". Didn't you see it? But it _does_ sound
> >like you're intent on supporting geller and his quasi-Sitchinite view
> >of "gods in the stars", which is why I made the above suggestion; if
> >you weren't meaning to support such a view you should say so instead
> >of engaging in rhetorical defenses for indefensible ideas.
>
> If you claim yourselves to be educated researchers, then let's all be
> civilised and accept each others ideas.
It is my understanding that Archaeology leads the way in the scientific
community with regards to bitter and sometimes childish disagreement among
colleagues. Am I wrong?
> Be more open minded because the truth is probably more far fetched than you
> think.
>
> No one reading this was alive during the ancient period (at least in the
> current physical form).
> Therefore no one has the right to say that "Oh, what do you think? This is
> some new age newsgroup? God in
> the stars!? Ha hahaha!!" or "This is just a modern interpretation of ancient
> records". Modernisation simply
> means that more possibilities of thought are opened up.
>
> If you don't understand what I'm saying I don't blame you. You are free to
> mail me for explainations. I am
> strong in my belief.
>
> >The thunderbolt steers all things.
> > - Herakleitos
> Might I ask you what is your interpretation of this?
>
> Rick Ong
Chrisso Boulis
: >Thomas Bullfinch "put together" his books on mythology in the late
: >1800's. I believe that the Graeco-Roman chapters date to c 1865.
: >Furthermore, they were meant to be storybooks for children. Nice
: >artwork, nice "constructed" stories, but NOT accurate translations
: >of texts. Filled with "Victorian" editing and errors!!! . . .
: I, of course, immediately see how right you are.
: I would be interested how else the words "heavenly dwellings" can be
: translated. The context is quite clear in the myth. Father warns his
: son: ". . . go not too high, or you will burn the heavenly dwellings,
: nor too low, or you will set the earth on fire . ." I have a
: fifficult time seeing a drastically different translation for this,
: but could you point me to one that has this story in it so I can
: quickly find it before this little point is lost to forceful ad
: hominem insults.
I would need the exact Greek and Latin words before I would attempt
to do any translation, because I've seen some amazing extrapolations
and literary liberties. I've seen a line in Aristophanes go from
literally "the horsey ones" where the obvious translations would
have been "the horsey set (derrogatory meaning)" to "the noble
equestrians (not even remotely derrogatory)". I can easily see
a translation go from just "the Olympians" or "those dwelling"
or "the divine dwellings" to "Heavenly Dwellings."
"It's just so much more 'literary' 'artistic' 'poetic' etc."
I have to also add that many myths are NOT completely outlined
in written sources. A considerable amount of myth is also drawn
from the visual arts. In creating a "storybook" telling of
myth, several well-known secondary sources combined the written
and the visual and embellish. Version 1: Man in chariot riding
through the heavens; earth below; dwellings in clouds --
heavenly dwellings. Version 2: Man in chariot riding through
the heavens; earth below; Mt. Olympos with buildings, no
clouds; Version 3: as 2 but Mountain with building and clouds.
Take your pick. It all depends on artistic "vision" and the
amount of space available (this is a CRUCIAL factor in the
visual representation of myth in ancient times!) I've seen
all three versions: on pottery and in wall paintings.
I can't strongly emphasis that in dealing with Greek mythology
(or even the later Roman discourses on Greek mythology) you
must take into consideration how the myths were portrayed
both in the literary and in the visual mediums of that time.
C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
Carl KICE Brown
Chrisso Boulis wrote:
>
> I can't strongly emphasis that in dealing with Greek mythology
> (or even the later Roman discourses on Greek mythology) you
> must take into consideration how the myths were portrayed
> both in the literary and in the visual mediums of that time.
>
> C.E.S. Boulis
> UPMAA
I take the opportunity strongly to recommend Gantz's handbook: _Early
Greek Mythology_ here, as it does exactly that -- follows thru time
how the myths were portrayed in both the literary and visual media.
joshua geller
Dear Kice,
Exactly so. This stuff is real work. It's actually work that I enjoy,
but I have a lot of other things going on right now, most of which
will hopefully make me some money these days.
I can't help but raise an eyebrow at Mr. Cleven's use of the login
'ironmtn' combined with his fierce and vituperative rhetoric directed
against these ideas and myself as their proponent. The Gods have
always delighted in irony.
my very best to you all - even to you, Mr. Cleven,
josh
ric carter
phx...@pop.phnx.uswest.net wrote:
> It is my understanding that Archaeology leads the way in the scientific
> community with regards to bitter and sometimes childish disagreement
> among colleagues. Am I wrong?
That's a difficult judgement. Attend a botanical conference and
decide for yourself as to which discipline "leads the way".
Ric "you say Compositae and I say Asteraceae" Carter
*
** try SkeptiChat, a mail.list of irrelevance & irreverence, etc **
to join: email 'subscribe skeptichat' to: majo...@lists.sonic.net
comp31
I am interested in the details you provide. Dioysius was an important
aspect of Ancient History.
Mike Cleven
On Tue, 30 Jun 1998 06:17:21 GMT, r...@sonic.net (ric carter) wrote:
>phx...@pop.phnx.uswest.net wrote:
>
>> It is my understanding that Archaeology leads the way in the scientific
>> community with regards to bitter and sometimes childish disagreement
>> among colleagues. Am I wrong?
>
>That's a difficult judgement. Attend a botanical conference and
>decide for yourself as to which discipline "leads the way".
Try a cocktail party full of clinical psychiatrists. Or, worse yet,
particle physicists.....
Mike Cleven
http://home.bc.rogers.wave.ca/ironmtn/
Chrisso Boulis
Carl KICE Brown (cbr...@mail.pmeh.uiowa.edu) wrote:
: Count Pierre Bezuhov wrote:
: The question is whether the phrase "heavenly dwellings" is an
: invention of Bullfinch or as you suggest, a phrase in his retellings
: that actually translated wording in some ancient text.
The Myth of Phaethon is preserved in a fragment of Euripides and
Ovid's metamorphosis. As far as tell from what I have in my
office - "Heavenly dwellings" is purely Bullfinch's invention.
No "dwellings" (except for Helios dwelling) are mentioned in the
text. What is presented is in the translation I have I is roughly
the following: Phaethon asked to drive Helios chariot. Helios
explains the course he must take through the sky and says that it's
not easy to control the horse, etc. Phaethon insists, mounts
chariot, takes it into the sky, looses control of the horses -
the Mountains of Ida, Helicon, Parnassus and Olympus catch on
fire with flames rolled down the slopes towards the valleys.
Gaia crys out to Zeus; Zeus thunderbolts the chariot. I'll
check out Latin in an Oxford Text next time I get to the classics
reading room next week.
I have to add, that Ovid is a "tricky" source for Greek Mythology.
First of all he's not Greek (but Roman) and not "traditional"
by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, his "imagination"
was strongly critized by his peers and lead, in part, to his
banishment from Rome. He was accused of making stuff and
presenting it as taken from "historical sources." Within
classics, he's read, not for content, but for his style of
"descriptive and colorful writing." In the study of Mythology,
he is included for his "metaphysical" or "philosophical"
interpretations of the original stories within the small
circle of overly-educated Romans of the Augustan Age and the
re-invention of myth (where he wasn't popular!). His
real popularity came in post-classical times.
I've only run into Ovid when Mythology is taught over two
semesters or when they are more interested in interpretative
philosophical stuff; and less on basics.
C.E.S. Boulis
UPMAA
Mike Cleven
On 29 Jun 1998 15:35:28 -0700, joshua geller
<dcl...@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote:
How kind. The name 'ironmtn' derives from a volcanic dike in the
hill-country just north of my former family residence; it got its name
from the reddish appearance of the moss covering it at certain times
of year; it's solid basalt.
The Gods indeed delight in irony. To see the cult of the manic,
utterly inspirational Dionysios associated with the Babylonianism
(Chaldeanism) of the cult of astronomy/astrology is truly amusing.
Although the other Olympians had celestial associations (the Sun and
planets), Dionysios never did, but rather was strongly associated with
the earth-cults and, indeed, a profound sense of chaos that is not to
be looked-for in the heavens. The supposition that there is a
"celestial Nysa" that scholarship can uncover may indeed provoke a
lengthy thesis in pursuit of some kind of proof......but Occam's Razor
must be invoked. If such a lengthy and difficult exposition is
required to prove something so unlikely, then it is indeed unlikely no
matter how well-argued, or how obtusely "proven".