Mythology in public schools
booji
southern california in the late 80's, and mythology was an elective
course for english credit. we learned about the classic greek myths, as
well as norse myths. we also looked at the religious stories of the
christians, hindus, and native americans and examined them from a
mythological point of view, personal beliefs notwithstanding.
as a parent now, i look back and feel that the mythology course i had
was handled well, and took care not to invalidate any personal beliefs,
but did give the student the ability to read and enjoy the stories on a
level we did not have before taking the course.
i will state, however, that the course was rather limited, especially
when compared to specialized college courses, such as my german
mythology course at university. but for a high school pregram, it was
interesting and well taught. if this is not a standard part of high
school curiculums, it should be.
-booji www.daerickgross.com
'i will not do anything bad ever again'
-bart simpson
prime...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>
> I would have been very happy if I had been exposed to mythology and epic lit
> in high school (if not elementary). I had to get into it from movies like
> Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans!
>
> But I think that the school system would crush that idea if anyone proposed it
> because:
>
> a)Parents and Christian groups would probably freak--even if their own stories
> were told. Different religious systems and mythologies being discussed? I dont
> think so. "Hey ma! I learned about Brahma today!" Could have a break out of
> fist fights between pagans and christians.
>
> b)The school system is rooted in a secular belief system--and that particular
> faith can be just as intolerant as the christian, muslim etc. They wouldnt
> want it cutting on their science turf.
>
> Which is too bad because I learned more about life from Homer than I did from
> ten years of science and math.
>
> Nice to dream about it though.
>
> :)
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
David
prime...@my-dejanews.com
Robin
prime...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I would have been very happy if I had been exposed to mythology and epic lit
> in high school (if not elementary). I had to get into it from movies like
> Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans!
>
> But I think that the school system would crush that idea if anyone proposed it
> because:
>
> a)Parents and Christian groups would probably freak--even if their own stories
> were told. Different religious systems and mythologies being discussed? I dont
> think so. "Hey ma! I learned about Brahma today!" Could have a break out of
> fist fights between pagans and christians.
This seems to be an American problem - or at least it is not a problem over
here in Germany. Maybe it's because Europe's countries have a closer
connection to their pre-christian myths. As a matter of fact, the basics of
Greek and Roman mythology are covered in history lessons, and you (may) even
have the mythology of other religions (bygone and current) in religious
education, even in primary schools (my wife is a teacher at that level and
she does it in her classes). Furthermore, my first contact with Greek
mythology was in primary school age, when I loaned a book on them from our
church (!) library.
> b)The school system is rooted in a secular belief system--and that particular
> faith can be just as intolerant as the christian, muslim etc. They wouldnt
> want it cutting on their science turf.
Mythology can be discussed with measures of science. In fact, it should be. I
know that in certain US states the biblical creation myth is still taught as
literal truth and Darwinism -if mentioned at all- as an unproven theory. Too
bad.
Robin
http://homestead.dejanews.com/user.robin_pfeifer/home.html
GeneSys general roleplaying rules system & World of Darkness resources
Kice Brown
>
> Ovid & Homer should be required reading in High School.
I attended elementary and high school in Phoenix Arizona during
the 1950's through 1962. Not sure how much of my early exposure to
myth was at home or thru Monte Vista elementary school. Certainly
do not recall any classwork so oriented, but I likely checked all
books on mythology out of the school library. Among the books
available to me at home were Plutarch's Lives, a flowery verse
translation of the Aeneid and a horribly boring translation of
the Odyssey. But another collection of books had several stories
from Norse mythology, the one I enjoyed reading the most was of
Thor and Loki (and Hugin?) spending a night in a giant's glove and
later their visit and contests with the giants' champions. And
early I had bought at the local drug store a Mentor paperback of
Edith Hamilton's mythology. Anyway my point is that I didn't
arrive in High School a tabula rasa.
And my mythic education in high school continued during my Freshman
and Sophomore year thru 2 years of Latin, the readings to translate
often including classical tales. But my primary memory from high
school is that during Sophomore English Class (which was really an
European literature class) the class read WHD Rouse's translation
(again a Mentor paperback) of the Odyssey aloud -- with the last
10 minutes of the class spent in discussion of what we'd just read.
My personal enjoyment of this was heightened by my previous expo-
sure, most likely through Edith Hamilton's book, to a plethora of
myths to which Homer only obliquely alluded to. I still have a
copy of the report I turned in for that English class on the
Harpies.
(oh that translation of the Aeneid was Dryden's)
I do recommend the reading of the Odyssey sometime in high school,
but from personal experience I'd also recommend that the students
either previously or concurrently (during discussion for instance)
be exposed to the mythic milieu to which Homer only obliquely
refers.
BTW, I certainly would hope that nowadays, any course in mythology
would not be limited to European mythology. One possible way of
addressing world mythology in a "short" course would be to choose a
mythic theme and explore its elaboration in diverse mythic systems.
(Id recommend NOT the flood theme BTW).
Kice writing from Lone Tree
Eddie Hoveastadt& Elisa Pearmain
particular. Robert Powers was my 10th grade English teacher at Boston English
High School in 1980, who taught an elective of greek mythology. He was
inspirational in his telling of the tales. Storming around the room as Achilles
stormed around the walls of Troy. His energy and enthusiam transformed what could
be considered boring to teenagers into an adventure to big looked forward to. Did
we take a greater meaning from the myth's, probably not at the time. But the
interest was kindled and now many years later I can see the value of myth and am
greatful for this man's efforts.
prime...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> I would have been very happy if I had been exposed to mythology and epic lit
> in high school (if not elementary). I had to get into it from movies like
> Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans!
>
> But I think that the school system would crush that idea if anyone proposed it
> because:
>
> a)Parents and Christian groups would probably freak--even if their own stories
> were told. Different religious systems and mythologies being discussed? I dont
> think so. "Hey ma! I learned about Brahma today!" Could have a break out of
> fist fights between pagans and christians.
>
> b)The school system is rooted in a secular belief system--and that particular
> faith can be just as intolerant as the christian, muslim etc. They wouldnt
> want it cutting on their science turf.
>
> Which is too bad because I learned more about life from Homer than I did from
> ten years of science and math.
>
> Nice to dream about it though.
>
> :)
>
Dan Norder
>I would have been very happy if I had been exposed to mythology and epic lit
>in high school (if not elementary).
What kind of god-awful school did you go to anyway? I had
Greek and Roman mythology in the literature aspect of English
in grade school and high school, and also a dedicated World
Mythology class elective in high school. I assumed at least the
Greek and Roman part is in most schools, and judging by all the
emails I get from all over asking basic mythology questions for
homework purposes, it must be in many schools. And these were
schools in the United States (don't want to contribute to the idea
we're all educational savages over here, based upon someone's
comment that it must be an American problem).
>a)Parents and Christian groups would probably freak--even if their own
>stories
>were told.
Occasionally they did freak. The mythology teacher mentioned
a few cases. But the class was very good about saying "this is
what the cultures believe, we aren't saying at all whether it was
right or wrong."
>b)The school system is rooted in a secular belief system--and that particular
>faith can be just as intolerant as the christian, muslim etc.
Excuse me? This isn't a case of indoctrinating kids to believe some
other religion (or are you making the freaked out parents and
Christians' arguments for them?) so don't know what the "secular
faith" (which doesn't exist anyway) would care.
Dan "mythology does not compete with science" Norder
deepn...@my-dejanews.com
Eddie Hoveastadt& Elisa Pearmain <eho...@ibm.net> wrote:
> My love of Mythology was directly related to a high school class and a teacher
in
> particular. Robert Powers was my 10th grade English teacher at Boston English
> High School in 1980, who taught an elective of greek mythology. He was
> inspirational in his telling of the tales. Storming around the room as
Achilles
> stormed around the walls of Troy. His energy and enthusiam transformed what
could
> be considered boring to teenagers into an adventure to big looked forward to.
Did
> we take a greater meaning from the myth's, probably not at the time. But the
> interest was kindled and now many years later I can see the value of myth and
am
> greatful for this man's efforts.
>
>
> > I would have been very happy if I had been exposed to mythology and epic lit
> > Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans!
> >
> > But I think that the school system would crush that idea if anyone proposed
it
> > because:
> >
stories
dont
> > think so. "Hey ma! I learned about Brahma today!" Could have a break out
of
> > fist fights between pagans and christians.
> >
particular
> > want it cutting on their science turf.
> >
> > Which is too bad because I learned more about life from Homer than I did
from
> > ten years of science and math.
> >
> > Nice to dream about it though.
> >
> > :)
It shouldn't be Occidental biased. Oriental mythology should be presented
as well as Primitive.
--deepneptune
~~Moving at the Speed of Dark~~
Dan Norder
>Unfortunately, Dan, primemover has a point, at least as it relates to
>_some_ educational institutions' view of what can and cannot be taught
>in schools concerning religion and/or mythology.
[much explanation snipped]
Well, that's bad. Looks like things have gotten much more complicated since I
was in high school and more involved in following these
disputes.
So, I guess the rules to remember are:
1) Don't assume things are the same as they were just a few years ago,
let alone a decade or more.
2) Never underestimate that influence of lawyers and fear of lawsuits.
3) Individual humans and groups can be extraordinarily stupid.
If we have or do end up with a school system that cannot even mention
the current or historical existence of religious beliefs (clearly not a
case endorsing them) then we've pretty much chopped off the ability
to understand huge parts of social studies and literature.
I think this would rate as even worse than the legendary effort by some
legislators to propose just rounding off the value of pi to 3 in schools.
But don't really want to turn into political discussion on this group, so
I'll just wander away for now.
Dan
Alice Turner
remember that at one point I did study Greek mythology, I would guess around
about the fourth grade, which strikes me as perfect for an introduction to
these stories, although I suppose the sexuality of many of the myths would
bother some parents (it simply didn't occur to me at that age). Katherine's
argument is the one I use too---how can one possibly be at all knowledgeable
about the arts--and that would include painting, music, theater and
literature at least through the mid 20th-century and really through the end
too--without knowing at least the Greek myths and the Bible stories? OK, OK,
multiculturalism is great (and one of the reasons I appreciate this NG), but
you have to start somewhere with some ground knowledge, and I consider these
essential. *At least* as important as history, as it's taught in grade and
high school, and even more useful to anyone who's going to lead at least a
marginally cultural life--something I'd hope for any kid.
Alice
Christopher B Siren
private school from 1st through 12th grade but I know we covered classical
mythology a few times in elementary school in English class. We also had
a semester long course in primarily classical mythology in 8th grade.
Then in high school English, we again covered classical mythology as well
as reading the Odyssey, Oedipus, Antigone, Beowulf, and selections from
Genesis, and a couple of other stories within the King James Bible. One
of the English sections also read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. A
familiarity with classical mythology and some of the Bible stories is, as
Alice noted earlier, important as a basis for recognizing themes and
references in English literature.
Chris Siren ICQ# 17091740
cbs...@hopper.unh.edu http://pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren
Myths and Legends: http://pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/myth.html
UNH Observatory: http://pubpages.unh.edu/~cbsiren/observatory.html
Bob Fisher
The issue of multiculturalism is a sore point in the
ongoing academic U.S. culture wars. What started as a well-meaning
effort to bring the heritages of other cultures to the attention of
U.S. students has evolved (or degenerated ?) into an insistence that
the values, mind-sets, art, literature (and mythologies) of other
cultures should all be awarded an equal validity. The result, at its
most innocuous, has been the teaching of a rather fuzzy grab-bag
curriculum that (for example) assigns Aztec and West African folk
tales an equal footing with classical Greek mythology. At its worst,
the result has been outright intellectual dishonesty as evidenced by
works such as "Black Athena" and "Out of Africa" that - despite their
debunking by scholars like Mary Lefkowitz - have proved influential
enough to have had their principles absorbed into both secondary and
university education by multiculturalism adherents.
Those who decry multiculturalism, do so at their peril. Their evidence
and arguments are lost in a tumult of epithet-hurling ("racist!" is a
very popular one) and politically correct slogans ("forget old, dead
white European males" is one such). And what seems to fade further and
further into the background is the enormous debt we owe the ancient
Greeks: constitutional government, free speech, individual rights,
civilian control over the military, separation of religious and
political authority, private property, free scientific inquiry, the
systematic accumulation of knowledge.....
These are the hallmarks of our Western civilization - a civilization
that so much of the modern world increasingly seeks to emulate
(however politically incorrect it may be to point that out).
The heritage of classical Greek mythology is so embedded in our
civilization's art, literature, and language, that the thought of NOT
assigning it its due importance in an academic curriculum is
mind-boggling. Yet denying Greek mythology a priority is exactly what
multiculturalists espouse.
B.F.
elbertdee
Fisher) wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Mar 1999 04:05:24 -0500, "Alice Turner" <a...@ibm.net> wrote:
is the one I use too---how can one possibly be at all knowledgeable
> >about the arts--and that would include painting, music, theater and
> >literature at least through the mid 20th-century and really through the end
> >too--without knowing at least the Greek myths and the Bible stories? OK, OK,
> >useful to anyone who's going to lead at least a
> >marginally cultural life--something I'd hope for any kid.
> >
> >Alice
Whos culture ?
> The issue of multiculturalism is a sore point in the
> ongoing academic U.S. culture wars.
snip
> The heritage of classical Greek mythology is so embedded in our
> civilization's art, literature, and language, that the thought of >NOT
> assigning it its due importance in an academic curriculum is
> mind-boggling. Yet denying Greek mythology a priority is exactly what
> multiculturalists espouse.
> B.F.
I did my time in art history ( I was an art major) at the University of
Texas. We looked at the Greek mythology as it helped with understanding
the pieces of the time but my appreciation for the works of art did not
increase or decrease because I knew the Greek Myths or any other
culture's myths. My understanding of the political and cultural
influences on an artist was not dependant on my knowledge of Mythology
unless it was a work that delt with those symbols. It is a part of the
history and evolution.
Why Should Greek mythology be any more important to someone than
African or Native American .... if they have an interest in the history
of the art associated with those myths.
I would agree if Greek Mythology is interesting to someone then it
holds importance and will have prioity for that person.
To do comparative Mythology much like Joseph Cambell sometimes did
seems beneficial to a well rounded understanding of one's on culture as
well as a way to bridge understanding to other cultures.
As far as understanding some of the aspects of this cultures(US)
government look to the Native American's for much of it was modeled
from an existing working government.
We live in a country(US) that is dependant on many cultures and their
myths for its existance. So why not look at them in a way that helps us
see how they are the same and different. It has been my experience that
much of the Myths are the same except for the symbols in the myths.
Greeks used their symbol set, African theirs, Japanese theirs, etc etc
It is all wrapped up in to the making of the US Culture in general as
well as the art and literature and history, even if it was written
mostly by white European males, it has been influenced by all the
cultures in this melting pot called the United States. Directly and
Indirectly we are a multicultural Culture in the US.
my 2 cents
Elbert Dee
--
Posted via Talkway - http://www.talkway.com
Surf Usenet at home, on the road, and by email -- always at Talkway.
elbertdee
Loki
>I would have been very happy if I had been exposed to mythology and epic lit
>in high school (if not elementary). I had to get into it from movies like
>Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans!
Yeah. Ironically, my initial introduction to Nordic and Celtic myths
was not from school, but from heavy metal albums like Black Sabbath's
Tyr, Led Zeppelin, etc, etc. Interesting, but not always scholarly.
;)
>But I think that the school system would crush that idea if anyone proposed it
>because:
>
>a)Parents and Christian groups would probably freak--even if their own stories
>were told. Different religious systems and mythologies being discussed? I dont
>think so. "Hey ma! I learned about Brahma today!" Could have a break out of
>fist fights between pagans and christians.
Well, Christian groups tend to go nutsy when their beliefs are even
considered as mythology anyway. Legends in the Catholic tradition
MAYBE (i.e. stuff about the saints, 3rd century "Acts of Paul," etc,
etc..), but NOT myth.
I might be wrong, but I suspect you may have written this because of
something I wrote earlier about a school district being sued by irate
Catholic parents because the students were instructed to create models
of the Mayan gods as part of a class project on the history of Mexico.
The parents, of course, freaked out and swore it was "indoctrinating
children into paganism" or whatever.
Of course, the parents never thought to consider that they could point
out how their Christian god didn't need helpers; he was all-powerful
and was the god of all things. This, in contrast to the various gods
of the Mayan pantheon would illustrate how much more powerful and,
perhaps, realistic he is.
Of course, much like many other controvertial issues (_Huck Finn_
comes to mind..), what could have been used for both an educational
and spiritually enlightening lesson is instead deemed as "wrong" by
fanatics. Sigh..
>b)The school system is rooted in a secular belief system--and that particular
>faith can be just as intolerant as the christian, muslim etc. They wouldnt
>want it cutting on their science turf.
Well if it were presented as myths - i.e. "Thor was said to be the god
of thunder" - wouldn't cut in on science since, well, Thor isn't
claimed to be THE being who creates Thunder. No one would ever claim
that he is real, etc.
>Which is too bad because I learned more about life from Homer than I did from
>ten years of science and math.
On thing I fear.. I did actually have a mythology section in my
English class in 7th grade (the only time I can remember learning
abouy myth in school aside from a brief running-over concerning it in
12th when we learned about Beowulf). Unfortunately, while the teacher
was a good one, the material she was allowed to let students look at
was so ridiculously sanitized that even today I have this tendency to
regard classical mythology as "boring" even when I ought to know
better. So if students ARE taught myth, they need to be presented
them in a clear, adult style. We actually sat and coloured in
pictures of the gods. It struck me as so stupid and useless that,
even though I was interested in it, I figured all of classical/Greek
mythology was as dull as colouring in pics of "The Sea God" that I
never really delved deeper til a year or so after I graduated high
school. Now imagine instead if I had learned about Poseidon and his
connection with the drama of Hippolytus, or something meaningful of
that nature. But alas...
>Nice to dream about it though.
>
>:)
--
Et in Arcadia Ego...
Loki
-[E-Mail]- juv...@citrus.infi.net
-[WWW]- http://members.xoom.com/balsebub
-[ICQ]- #13134728
"Well I ain't evil, I'm just good looking." - Alice Cooper, "Feed My Frankenstein"
Bob Fisher
wrote:
>On Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:50:14 GMT fis...@ncal.verio.NOSPAM.com (Bob
>Fisher) wrote:
>
>> The issue of multiculturalism is a sore point in the
>> ongoing academic U.S. culture wars.
[snipped by Elbert]
>> The heritage of classical Greek mythology is so embedded in our
>> civilization's art, literature, and language, that the thought of >NOT
>> assigning it its due importance in an academic curriculum is
>> mind-boggling. Yet denying Greek mythology a priority is exactly what
>> multiculturalists espouse.
>> B.F.
>I did my time in art history ( I was an art major) at the University of
>Texas. We looked at the Greek mythology as it helped with understanding
>the pieces of the time but my appreciation for the works of art did not
>increase or decrease because I knew the Greek Myths or any other
>culture's myths. My understanding of the political and cultural
>influences on an artist was not dependant on my knowledge of Mythology
>unless it was a work that delt with those symbols.
It appears the entire Renaissance was in vain, then, as far as your
appreciation of its significance goes!
> It is a part of the
>history and evolution.
>Why Should Greek mythology be any more important to someone than
>African or Native American
Why? Because our civilization, our culture, our language, our
government has not incorporated a significant legacy from those
mythologies and their cultures. (And traces don't count - I'm
referring to underlying principles and institutions.) The very fact
that we are disagreeing in a public forum is a direct legacy of the
Greeks.
> .... if they have an interest in the history
>of the art associated with those myths.
No need to exclude their study, though. It's a question of priorities
and relative significance.
>I would agree if Greek Mythology is interesting to someone then it
>holds importance and will have prioity for that person.
>To do comparative Mythology much like Joseph Cambell sometimes did
>seems beneficial to a well rounded understanding of one's on culture as
>well as a way to bridge understanding to other cultures.
>As far as understanding some of the aspects of this cultures(US)
>government look to the Native American's for much of it was modeled
>from an existing working government.
What on earth are you talking about, Elbert? The U.S. system of
government derives from Greek and Roman classical models.
>We live in a country(US) that is dependant on many cultures and their
>myths for its existance.
Our existence?
No, our existence is NOT dependent on many cultures and their myths.
However, it does specifically owe a huge debt to classical Greek and
Roman culture.
> So why not look at them in a way that helps us
>see how they are the same and different. It has been my experience that
>much of the Myths are the same except for the symbols in the myths.
>Greeks used their symbol set, African theirs, Japanese theirs, etc etc
>It is all wrapped up in to the making of the US Culture in general as
>well as the art and literature and history, even if it was written
>mostly by white European males,
Ah..... there's that slogan....
>it has been influenced by all the
>cultures in this melting pot called the United States. Directly and
>Indirectly we are a multicultural Culture in the US.
What happens in a melting pot? Other cultures are "melted" into
the host culture. Subsequent success directly depends on the ability
of a group to be "melted" (i.e. to adopt the language and principles
and ethos etc. of the host culture). Some groups have more success
than others. Why do you think that is?
B.F.
P.S. Here's the post you snipped. I'm restoring it as it brings up
points that you seem to have missed when you replied.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:50:14 GMT fis...@ncal.verio.NOSPAM.com (Bob
Fisher) wrote:
The issue of multiculturalism is a sore point in the
The heritage of classical Greek mythology is so embedded in our
Kice Brown
discussion
associated with the original thread here, my concern being
an
offshoot.
Bob Fisher wrote:
>
> On Tue, 09 Mar 1999 22:44:53 GMT, "elbertdee" <sisk...@xoommail.com>
> wrote:
> >it has been influenced by all the
> >cultures in this melting pot called the United States. Directly and
> >Indirectly we are a multicultural Culture in the US.
>
> What happens in a melting pot? Other cultures are "melted" into
> the host culture. Subsequent success directly depends on the ability
> of a group to be "melted" (i.e. to adopt the language and principles
> and ethos etc. of the host culture). Some groups have more success
> than others. Why do you think that is?
> B.F.
I grew up partially in the Dutch-American milieu of Western
Michigan -- that, and my experiences over the past 30 years
here in Iowa, where there are many towns/cities that
present
a milieu reflecting localized European ancestry have led me
to reject the 19th century industry-based metaphor of a
"melting pot" -- various elements fusing together in a
melting
pot to forge a new steel. Rather I prefer various
metaphors
based on stews and ollas, in which the differing
ingredients
retain their basic essences but each contributes to the
quality of the whole. To borrow a slogan / philosophy from
the Vulcans of Star Trek mythology: IDIC -- Infinite
Diversity
in Infinite Combination!
Kice from Lone Tree
Leslie O. Segar
prime...@my-dejanews.com says...
> I would have been very happy if I had been exposed to mythology and epic lit
> in high school (if not elementary). I had to get into it from movies like
> Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans!
>
My public school experience is long enough ago that it
might seem itself to be in the mythological past, but in
the Cincinnati public schools in the late '40's and early
'50's, the Odyssey was required reading in the eighth
grade, and Hawthorne's marvellous and all-but-forgotten
retelling of classical myths in "The Wonder Book" was on
the reading list in Seventh grade. Indeed, it's that
latter book that was largely responsible for my lifelong
interest in mythology.
LOS
--
Leslie O. Segar
Anarchist & Optimist, both qualified
http://www.wmblake.com/los
Bob Fisher
wrote:
>I've snipped much of the original discussion of the
>discussion
>associated with the original thread here, my concern being
>an
>offshoot.
>
>Bob Fisher wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 09 Mar 1999 22:44:53 GMT, "elbertdee" <sisk...@xoommail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >it has been influenced by all the
>> >cultures in this melting pot called the United States. Directly and
>> >Indirectly we are a multicultural Culture in the US.
>> What happens in a melting pot? Other cultures are "melted" into
>> the host culture. Subsequent success directly depends on the ability
>> of a group to be "melted" (i.e. to adopt the language and principles
>> and ethos etc. of the host culture). Some groups have more success
>> than others. Why do you think that is?
>> B.F.
>
>
>I grew up partially in the Dutch-American milieu of Western
>Michigan -- that, and my experiences over the past 30 years
>here in Iowa, where there are many towns/cities that
>present a milieu reflecting localized European ancestry have led me
>to reject the 19th century industry-based metaphor of a
>"melting pot" -- various elements fusing together in a
>melting pot to forge a new steel. Rather I prefer various
>metaphors based on stews and ollas, in which the differing
>ingredients retain their basic essences but each contributes to the
>quality of the whole. To borrow a slogan / philosophy from
>the Vulcans of Star Trek mythology: IDIC -- Infinite
>Diversity in Infinite Combination!
>
> Kice from Lone Tree
Whether the industrial age's "melting pot" metaphor or your (New Age
organic?) "stew pot" metaphor, the result is that the end product is
different (and greater) than the mere sum of its parts: a new steel
has been refined, a new casserole is now on the menu. As further
ingredients are added to either pot, some are absorbed faster than
others...
B.F.
Michael and Kimberly Burkard
From my own personal experience and from the experiences of others,
I readily admit my disappointment in public schools in many regards -
the lack of education about other peoples and cultures not currently
in vogue being one of them. But iregardless of our opinions of public
schools, we can't leave or expect all the teaching our children need
to be done in such schools.
If you feel it's important to expose young people to mythology, which
I think it is, and your school doesn't or won't teach such things to
your child, it's up to you to fill in the gaps. There are many excellent
books available for people of all ages - I can suggest many should you
need help in finding good ones. I've given some of my favorite myth and
folklore books to young people and teachers I know. And now that I've
been recently blessed with a child of my own, I will share those books
with him as well.
While schools may reach more people, we as individuals are not
entirely powerless to share this wonderful topic with others!
-kim
ps....if I get a chance in the near future, I'll hunt through my
bookshelves to suggest some good "all ages" books if people are
interested.
--
Kimberly Burkard | _ Everything I needed to know in life, I
gree...@servtech.com| _____C .._. learned from my ferret:
| ____/ \___/ Frolic and dance for joy often, have
|<____/\_---\_\ no fear or worries, and enjoy life.
Cathy Smith
Leslie O. Segar wrote:
I'm a Mohawk living on a reserve in Canada so even though Iwent to public
school in the 80's I was exposed to native legends
by my Cayuga teacher. (She was trying to teach us our culture,
and since Cayuga was one of the five original tribes of the
Iroquois confederacy we have the same basic legends and
a shared culture though the languages differ.) I was also a
prolific reader, and my favourite books in the school
library were myths.
All this means that despite the fact that I was only
officially taught about one culture's mythology in my classes
I ended up having a more rounded knowledge through
my own reading. Unfortunately I'm not sure that many children
would be curious or ambitious enough to take up their own
research nowadays.
Cathy
Cathy Mosley
A couple of years ago this newsgroup was able to help me clarify some of
the background of a Japense badger story I was going to tell, and hope you
might be able to point in the right direction on this topic now.
I do storytelling and have come upon the bare bones of two Kitsune
stories, either of which I would love to tell, but I would like to find more
complete references.
In a book called The Fox and Jewel (a study of Inari worship) I found two
brief references to two fox wife stories. One is set in Mino, and tells of
a fox wife who is startled back to her shape by the barking of a dog.
However, her husband loves her well enough to beg her to return to sleep
with him each night, which she does. And according to the legend,
"Kitsune" means "come and sleep."
The other refers to another version of it called, "The Fox of Shinoda
Woods," where the fox mother writes a farewell poem to her husband before
returning to the woods.
And while I could work from these bases I usually like to get as thorough
a background as possible when telling stories from another country.
Any help or references would be greatly appreciated.
Cathy
Bruce Rimell
involved the fox following a woman who travelled across Japan, variously
assuming the disguise of a chaperone, a friend, and sometimes a samurai to
protect the woman. (I'm sorry, I forget the name of the play, but any good
kabuki book will have something about foxes). In any case, he wasnt protecting
her for any selfless or 'honourable' reason. Just that the small drum she was
carrying was made of the skin of his parents and so he was bound to follow it
everywhere until it was given to him.
Bruce
Bruce Rimell
written in hiragana, or sometimes a single kanji. But! the word also sounds like
the beginning of kite ne(te) "Come and sleep", so this is more of a play on
words, which has a lot more significance in the Japanese mind than it does in
the english. Actually in Classical Japanese, the form could actually be kitsu
netari, which sounds even closer. I'm not very sure on classical language tho'
:) so dont quote me on that
xiuhtecuhtli
おろち
Bruce Rimell wrote in message <378B4C0F...@gol.com>...
>The kitsune is often found in a lot of Kabuki plays - one play I remember
>involved the fox following a woman who travelled across Japan, variously
>assuming the disguise of a chaperone, a friend, and sometimes a samurai to
>protect the woman. (I'm sorry, I forget the name of the play, but any good
>kabuki book will have something about foxes). In any case, he wasnt
protecting
>her for any selfless or 'honourable' reason. Just that the small drum she
was
>carrying was made of the skin of his parents and so he was bound to follow
it
>everywhere until it was given to him.
>
xiuhtecuhtli
PSmith9626
You mean you were never required to read homer ect . in school?
Thats awful.
By the way: Jason and the Argonauts is based on "the argonautica" by
apollonius.
Its a great treat!
Run, dont walk to the nearest library and YUMMY!
best
penny
mathematician and big fan of ray harryhausen/george pal
Kice Brown
>
> dear kice,
> Drydens translation is awful.
>
> best
> penny
Hi,
I might not have made it clear I thought that too -- Never
was
really able to read it through like I've done a few times
with the Iliad and the Odyssey. I did borrow my Latin
teacher's copy of the first half of the Aeneid over the
summer between my Soph and Junior years, and spent the
summer translating the first book -- into prose, I couldn't
handle translating from Latin to English poetry. I always
thought that was part of Dryden's problem, translating into
really awful English poetry.
Kice, writing from Lone Tree
I really need to take the time
to create a signature file here.
Bob Fisher
wrote:
>PSmith9626 wrote:
Oh, Kice..... "really awful English poetry"?
I suppose it's a matter of taste, but think
how many millions have been stirred by and remember lines like:
"When Heaven had overturned the Trojan state
And Priam's throne, by too severe a fate;
When ruined Troy became the Grecians' prey,
And Ilium's lofty towers in ashes lay..."
In comparison, how memorable are these lines
in any other translation - prose or poetry?
Ah, well..........
PSmith9626
,>hen Heaven had overturned the Trojan state
>And Priam's throne, by too severe a fate;
>When ruined Troy became the Grecians' prey,
>And Ilium's lofty towers in ashes lay..."
yecch. Compare shakespeare's lines in" the tempest" about cloud piercing
towers, or tennyson's poem about Petra " the rose red city ,half again as old
as time" or even Carl Sandburgs poem " we are the greatest nation, we are the
greatest people-nothing like us ever was".
Dryden is dreadful.
best
penny
Bob Fisher
As I said, a matter of taste....
Tsurugi: Shinku na Ken
>俺は稲荷寿司が好きだ…
>
>おろち
He says he likes sushi in fried tofu, but how that relates to Kitsune
is beyond me. 9_9;
In any case, look here:
http://www.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp/~jeffreyb/kabuki.html
"Kawatsura Hogen Yakata no Ba" seems like the play referred to below.
Tsurugi
Alice Turner
Bob Fisher wrote in message <36f133b3...@news.ncal.verio.com>...
>On 18 Mar 1999 09:58:56 GMT, psmit...@aol.com (PSmith9626) wrote:
>
>>dear bob
>>
>>,>hen Heaven had overturned the Trojan state
>>>And Priam's throne, by too severe a fate;
>>>When ruined Troy became the Grecians' prey,
>>
>>>And Ilium's lofty towers in ashes lay..."
>>
>>yecch. Compare shakespeare's lines in" the tempest" about cloud piercing
>>towers, or tennyson's poem about Petra " the rose red city ,half again as
old
>>as time" or even Carl Sandburgs poem " we are the greatest nation, we are
the
>>greatest people-nothing like us ever was".
>
Bob,
A matter of time too. But the Web has to publish what's in public domain,
which doesn't include the acclaimed modern versions. What do you think of
Chapman?
Alice
PSmith9626
yes, of course.
What do you think of Robert F. ?
best
penny
Bob Fisher
wrote:
>
>Bob Fisher wrote in message <36f133b3...@news.ncal.verio.com>...
>>On 18 Mar 1999 09:58:56 GMT, psmit...@aol.com (PSmith9626) wrote:
>>
>>>dear bob
>>>
>>>,>When Heaven had overturned the Trojan state
>>>>And Priam's throne, by too severe a fate;
>>>>When ruined Troy became the Grecians' prey,
>>>>And Ilium's lofty towers in ashes lay..."
>>>yecch. Compare shakespeare's lines in" the tempest" about cloud piercing
>>>towers, or tennyson's poem about Petra " the rose red city ,half again as
>>>old
>>>as time" or even Carl Sandburgs poem " we are the greatest nation, we are
>>>the
>>>greatest people-nothing like us ever was".
>>As I said, a matter of taste....
>Bob,
>
>A matter of time too.
Hello, Alice...
"A matter of time".... Yes, I suppose so........
The sight of "really awful poetry" and "yech" applied to John Dryden
really sets my teeth on edge.....
But I will remain diplomatic... :-)
>What do you think of
>Chapman?
>
Here's what Keats thought:
"Oft of one wide expanse had I been told
That deep-browed Homer ruled as his demesne,
Yet did I never breathe its pure serene
Til I heard Chapman speak out loud and bold."
Chapman is a very subjective read for me. This might sound a bit
sappy, but when I read any of Chapman's Homer, I cannot help
experiencing a sort of frisson, knowing that I am reading the same
English words that so affected and influenced virtually every English
writer of the 17th century. I think it's impossible for me not be
affected by this, but if I am to make a judgement I would say I
definitely prefer much of Chapman's Iliad to Pope's, though I have my
favorite Pope passages. I'd venture to say that anyone who has
recently read a fair amount of Shakespeare would feel similarly. After
getting acclimated to Shakespeare's idiom, one can pick up Chapman's
Iliad and take off running.
My personal test of an English verse translation includes (but is not
limited to) my estimation of the "memorableness" of passages. By this
standard, most modern verse translations of Homer fall far short of
Chapman and Pope.
I have "smalle Greek", so I won't get into accuracy issues here.
Someone from alt.humanities.classics might take it (rightfully) amiss.
Cheers,
Bob
P.S. You might be interested in checking my Homer "bookstore page" at
http://www.showgate.com/medea/bulfinch/homerbk.html
for a few notes that I included to assist "purchase decisions".
Alice Turner
Bob Fisher wrote in message <36f2029...@news.ncal.verio.com>...
>P.S. You might be interested in checking my Homer "bookstore page" at
>http://www.showgate.com/medea/bulfinch/homerbk.html
>for a few notes that I included to assist "purchase decisions".
A very attractive page. Is the whole Bullfinch site yours?
Alice
Bob Fisher
wrote:
>
Thanks, Alice. Yes, that's my site. All three Bulfinch volumes are at
http://www.bulfinch.org/
The Arthur and Orlando volumes are still under construction there.
The other URL I suggested is a page on the original site I used to
publicize a play I produced a couple of years ago. The new mirror is
"publicity-free" - other than the Barnes and Noble affiliation.
It's also much less heavily accessed and tends to load a bit faster.
Enjoy,
Bob
Bob Fisher
>dear bob,
> yes, of course.
> What do you think of Robert F. ?
> best
> penny
I finally got around to finishing Fagles' Iliad recently
(though not his Odyssey). I prefer it to other versions
that try to colloquialize the language, but every now and again
I'm brought up short by a jarring choice of words that
sends me to another version for comparison. But it's nowhere
near as "updated" as Lombardo's - the only Iliad I've ever read
that actually made me laugh out loud at times. An interesting
side-effect of reading Lombardo's version is that it gets one to
wondering if the original epic did indeed go for more "comic relief"
than is usually thought.
Reactionary pig that I am, I still prefer Chapman and Pope
for English verse versions... IMHO, they tend to "stick to the ribs"
more. But as far as prose versions go, I'm a fan of Rouse rather than
of Butler.
B.F.
Alice Turner
Bob Fisher <fis...@ncal.verio.NOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:36f2bfb3...@news.ncal.verio.com...
> On 19 Mar 1999 05:14:21 GMT, psmit...@aol.com (PSmith9626) wrote:
>
> >dear bob,
> > yes, of course.
> > What do you think of Robert F. ?
> > best
> > penny
>
> I finally got around to finishing Fagles' Iliad recently
> (though not his Odyssey). I prefer it to other versions
> that try to colloquialize the language, but every now and again
> I'm brought up short by a jarring choice of words that
> sends me to another version for comparison. But it's nowhere
> near as "updated" as Lombardo's - the only Iliad I've ever read
> that actually made me laugh out loud at times. An interesting
> side-effect of reading Lombardo's version is that it gets one to
> wondering if the original epic did indeed go for more "comic relief"
> than is usually thought.
Penny, I like Fagles. Lattimore seems stiff to me, nowadays, with those
"correct" spellings. Fitzgerald is a good useful straightforward edition,
however. I haven't read the Lombardo, but Bob is tempting me! As for the
early translators--well, they're free on the web, and if you're trying to
look up an allusion or quotation, as I have done at least three times,
hooray for them, they're fabulous if you're patient enough to try different
spellings etc (i.e. Herakles, Hercules; Kerberos, Cerberus)! I just love the
fact that classicists took to the web early, like ducks to a newly dug pond,
way ahead of many other academic disciplines.
Alice
AHUFFMA
> >in high school (if not elementary). I had to get into it from movies like
> >Jason and the Argonauts and Clash of the Titans!
> >
> >because:
> >
> >a)Parents and Christian groups would probably freak--even if their own stories
> >were told. Different religious systems and mythologies being discussed? I dont
> >think so. "Hey ma! I learned about Brahma today!" Could have a break out of
> >fist fights between pagans and christians.
> >
> >faith can be just as intolerant as the christian, muslim etc. They wouldnt
> >want it cutting on their science turf.
> >
> >ten years of science and math.
> >
> >
specifically for teaching mythology (besides the desperate needs for
more teachers and a serious lack of funds in my school district), but
mythology was always a very vital part of my English classes. From
the early days of junior high (probably even elementary school), I
knew the basics of Roman and Greek mythology. Such a basis was
extended well into my junior and senior year of high school where we
studied myths and writings that were heavily influeced by mythology.
Heck, one of our class discussions was about the question of if the
Bible was a collection of myths or not.
I live in the buckle of the Bible Belt in South Carolina, and parents
didn't complain about it, and neither did the students. I recall that
either the school board or one of the local schools was contemplating
making mythology an elective, and even then one student was quite
vocal about it (he being a stringent Southern Baptist). Of course, I
don't think that many Southern Baptists or other Christians honestly
see mythology and the study of it as a religious teaching in publics
schools, where teachers are trying to spoil the minds of young
impressionable teenagers.
Most of us see it as a study in history, religious development, and
literature.
-------
Mandy Huffman ahu...@clemson.edu