Zevon Song of the Week #9
haro...@yahoo.ca
Category: Love-Gone-Wrong
I've chosen this song to commemorate a week of pretty depressing
news.
As always, there's the specter of horrible world situations - Iraq,
Darfur, Israel, Nicole Kidman.
Then I had the vastly unpleasant experience of reading Robert F.
Kennedy Jr.'s article in Rolling Stone of how Republican thugs and
criminals stole the 2004 election (You can find it here:
http://snipurl.com/r81u). I absolutely believe what he says, but
can't figure out why Americans are not in an uproar about it (not to
mention the daily carnage in Iraq).
Later on in the week, I actually watched a portion of The Late Show
that for some reason I still record every weeknight. The guest was Al
Gore, a failed candidate (even though he won the 2000 election, both
popular vote and electoral college - notice a theme here?) but reborn
as an environmental crusader. I haven't seen An Inconvenient Truth
yet, and by all accounts its message is very powerful, but let's face
it, nothing will be done to address global warming as long as the U.S.
and Canada, the planet's biggest offenders, have conservative
governments in place. Regardless, what was poignant about Gore's
appearance on Letterman was that whatever kind of president he turned
out to be, he would have been 100 times better than the moron in there
now.
Finally, perhaps on a lesser scale of misery than the above but still
dispiriting to most of us here, there was the announcement of the
long-awaited Zevon box set going nowhere, at least with Rhino. No
substantive reason was given other than a vague allusion to a contract
dispute, which hasn't prevented the 1,259 box sets of other artists
from making their way onto the shelves.
So, to sum up: a world in crisis, a leadership vacuum, an indifferent
populace, and the realization of no new Zevon music following three
years of being teased by the prospect of it-not exactly a barrel of
laughs, but a pretty good set-up scenario for Empty-Handed Heart,
perhaps the quintessential Zevon song of loss and confusion.
EHH is also one of Warren's most glorious compositions, the big
mystery of which is why it has never appeared on any Zevon album other
than the one it was released on (BLSIDS). Along with The French Inhaler
and Desperados Under The Eaves, the song possesses a musical complexity
(complete with descant by Linda Ronstadt) that Warren abandoned after
his first few albums. There are classical elements in these songs, and
they are all stirring, provocative, achingly sad, and as a group
perhaps the best work Warren ever turned out.
As usual, I have no idea who EHH's heroine is, although I'm
convinced Warren wrote from the heart based on personal experience. You
can't make this stuff up.
Also as usual, there's some clever Zevon wordplay, namely his taking
the concept of "empty-handed" and applying it to a failed love
affair. I think Warren's staggeringly honest musical confessions
served as a form of self-medication for him. He was his own therapist.
Of course, for a long time, there was also a bottle of vodka by his
side.
Unlike, say, Finishing Touches, EHH is not simply a love-gone-wrong
song. In fact, it's the recollection of everything that's right
about love, until the inevitable Zevonian "heart-jinxed condition"
sets in. The song's lyrics reflect both an incurable romanticism and
a fateful disillusionment. The effect is such that it makes us want to
down a couple of liters of alcohol.
The Zevon preoccupation with mortality is evident as well, in the
phrase "But time does not stand still, it's rolling like a rockslide
down a hill." This is more awareness than we usually see in the
average thirty-something rock star. But we know Warren was not average.
If there's a more beautiful section in any song than Warren's
repeating lament of "Then I've thrown down diamonds in the sand"
over Linda's keening recollections of their good times together,
followed by the dejected final lines-"Leave the fire behind you and
start, I'll be playing it by ear, left here with an empty-handed
heart"-I haven't heard it.
As I said, an appropriate song for a depressing week.
Categories to date
--------------------------
Family: 1
Love-Gone-Wrong: 2
Mortality: 1
Satire: 2
Social Commentary: 2
Sports: 1
Sandy S
<haro...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1151235416.7...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> As always, there's the specter of horrible world situations... <snip>
> can't figure out why Americans are not in an uproar about it (not to
> mention the daily carnage in Iraq).
There are more in an uproar than you may think. One of my favorite blogs
(for many reasons) also has a nice Bruuuuuce clip if you scroll down just a
little bit.
http://alabamaasswhuppin.blogspot.com/2006/06/be-scared-america-booooooooooo.html
Howard Roseman
> There are more in an uproar than you may think. One of my favorite blogs
> (for many reasons) also has a nice Bruuuuuce clip if you scroll down just
a
> little bit.
>
>
http://alabamaasswhuppin.blogspot.com/2006/06/be-scared-america-booooooooooo.html
>
Good on you, Bruce. Thanks for sharing that, Sandy. And a stick to that CNN
interviewer, questioning Bruce on his right to speak out. Most of the
mainstream media, with the exception of columnists like Bob Herbert and
Maureen Dowd, have disgraced themselves everlastingly in their utter
subservience to this law-breaking regime of killers.
Jim R
>
> Category: Love-Gone-Wrong
>
> I've chosen this song to commemorate a week of pretty depressing
> news.
>
> As always, there's the specter of horrible world situations - Iraq,
> Darfur, Israel, Nicole Kidman.
>
> Then I had the vastly unpleasant experience of reading Robert F.
> Kennedy Jr.'s article in Rolling Stone of how Republican thugs and
> criminals stole the 2004 election (You can find it here:
> http://snipurl.com/r81u). I absolutely believe what he says, but
> can't figure out why Americans are not in an uproar about it (not to
> mention the daily carnage in Iraq).
The main reason, I think, is that at least 45% of the people in the U.S. see
a Kennedy name attached to something like this story and immediately
discount it. The name screams partisan and is ignored by a large chunk of
the country.
As far as the daily news from Iraq, the majority do think it is being
handled badly but see no alternative at this point. The mistakes were made
3 or 4 years ago and no one knows what to do next.
>
> Later on in the week, I actually watched a portion of The Late Show
> that for some reason I still record every weeknight. The guest was Al
> Gore, a failed candidate (even though he won the 2000 election, both
> popular vote and electoral college - notice a theme here?) but reborn
> as an environmental crusader. I haven't seen An Inconvenient Truth
> yet, and by all accounts its message is very powerful, but let's face
> it, nothing will be done to address global warming as long as the U.S.
> and Canada, the planet's biggest offenders, have conservative
> governments in place. Regardless, what was poignant about Gore's
> appearance on Letterman was that whatever kind of president he turned
> out to be, he would have been 100 times better than the moron in there
> now.
>
He had his chance though and really has only himself to blame for not being
able to destroy a candidate who was so obviously clueless on just about
every issue put before him. Bush the 2000 candidate was so often ignorant
of just about every issue that it still amazes and frightens me that 49% of
the voters were for him!
> Finally, perhaps on a lesser scale of misery than the above but still
> dispiriting to most of us here, there was the announcement of the
> long-awaited Zevon box set going nowhere, at least with Rhino. No
> substantive reason was given other than a vague allusion to a contract
> dispute, which hasn't prevented the 1,259 box sets of other artists
> from making their way onto the shelves.
>
Now this is bad news! I can't help but think that after all the build up
and anticipation though, that we were all going to be underwhelmed by the
box set. The answer is go and put Warren Zevon or Sentimental Hygiene in
the player and let him rip.
This is a song that took a while to grow on me actually; but it is
definitely well done. Thanks for post, Howard.
Howard Roseman
> handled badly but see no alternative at this point. The mistakes were
made
> 3 or 4 years ago and no one knows what to do next.
For someone as old as I am, who remembers what the anti-war protests were
like against Vietnam, sentiments that drove LBJ out of office, it all seems
very weak tea now. The masses are more concerned with bad performances on
American idol than the fact that their countrymen are being slaughtered for
no reason in Iraq. Where's the protest? It's still confined to a small
minority. IMO, the major difference is there's no draft, and the people
dying and being maimed are mostly from a lower socio-economic group, one
less likely to garner sympathy. It doesn't help that the government censors
any pictures of returning coffins, and people like Tony Snow proclaim that
2,500 (the number of American soldiers killed to date) is "just a number". I
doubt any of the draft dogers and avoiders in the White House have any of
their children serving in Iraq. They declare war, then send other people's
children to die.
> Now this is bad news! I can't help but think that after all the build up
> and anticipation though, that we were all going to be underwhelmed by the
> box set. The answer is go and put Warren Zevon or Sentimental Hygiene in
> the player and let him rip.
>
Jordan posted a couple of clips on the BB way back when and they were
intriguing. Nothing in them may have measured up to WZ or SH but they were
still new. The songs being dangled in front of us and then withdrawn is the
maddening part.
> This is a song that took a while to grow on me actually; but it is
definitely well done.
I've gone through that on a few Zevon albums, including TC and Mutineer.
Once they grow, however, they root very strongly.
> Thanks for post, Howard.
No worries - only 120 weeks or so to go!
Sandy S
"Howard Roseman" <hros...@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:_5Eng.96885$Mn5.46000@pd7tw3no...
> <snip> Where's the protest? It's still confined to a small minority.
> <snip>
The minority is growing every day and many of the protests are on the 'net.
Blogs abound and videos such as http://www.peacetakescourage.com/number.html
and Loose Change 911 are circulated no matter what the government thinks it
can regulate.
JFH
Moyers:
As difficult as it is, however, for journalists to fashion a readable
narrative for complex issues without depressing our readers and viewers,
there is an even harder challenge – to pierce the ideology that
governs official policy today. One of the biggest changes in politics in
my lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal. It has come in
from the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the Oval Office and in
Congress. For the first time in our history, ideology and theology hold
a monopoly of power in Washington.
Theology asserts propositions that cannot be proven true; ideologues
hold stoutly to a world view despite being contradicted by what is
generally accepted as reality. When ideology and theology couple, their
offspring are not always bad but they are always blind. And there is the
danger: voters and politicians alike, oblivious to the facts.
Joanne Corsano
>IMO, the major difference is there's no draft, and the people
>dying and being maimed are mostly from a lower socio-economic group, one
>less likely to garner sympathy.
I usually don't contribute to political threads on this ng, but in
this case I have to put in my two cents' worth to say I agree with
Howard. The Republicans' elimination of the draft was the most
devilishly clever thing they've done to date, in a series of
devilishly (and I mean that word literally) clever moves to complete
the takeover of this country by the rich. Getting rid of the draft
took a lot of passion out of the anti-war movement. What's so clever
about this is how the Republicans (and Democrats, I am sorry to say)
created an economic reality that effectively replaced the draft.
First, trade policies moved millions of jobs overseas, and second, the
government enables places like Wal-mart to pay poverty wages and bust
unions, so that all of a sudden joining the armed forces actually
starts to look like a smart career move (or the only one) to a lot of
young people. Thus, the steady stream of bodies is guaranteed for
these Republican monsters' evil war.
Sooner or later, all Joanne posts mention .... you got it, Graham
Parker. He has a song you should all hear called "2000 Funerals"
about the 2000th American death in Iraq. (Downloadable from I-Tunes
or E-Music.) He's stopped playing it recently in concert, because I
have a feeling he thinks it's already obsolete. Now of course we're
up to 2,500 funerals, and counting.
Comment on the song of the week itself will appear in a separate post,
when I get around to it. I love this song too much to let it go by
without some gushy comment.
Joanne
................................................................
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Lucy
> The songs being dangled in front of us and then withdrawn is the
> maddening part.
Then don't listen to 'em.
Without any of us knowing what's happened between JZ and
Rhino (and their revolving door executives who may or may
not honor the commitments made by their predecessors) nobody
has any call to be snarky about or maddened by the "sneak
previews" JZ gave us.
-- Lucy, grateful for what she's been given
Howard Roseman
> > maddening part.
>
> Then don't listen to 'em.
Rhino and Jordan have guaranteed that, haven't they?
>
> Without any of us knowing what's happened between JZ and
> Rhino (and their revolving door executives who may or may > not honor the
commitments made by their predecessors) nobody
> has any call to be snarky about or maddened by the "sneak
> previews" JZ gave us.
>
I think we have every right to feel snarky and any other emotion that may
arise. We were promised a box set, waited patiently for YEARS, and then the
promise was broke, with no explanation given.
Unlike the hordes of understanding acolytes over on the BB, I prefer to know
the reasons behind disappointing news. As I said in an earlier post, when no
information is given out, I speculate. That's only natural. The way to
prevent speculation is to be honest with people.
> -- Lucy, grateful for what she's been given
From your Zevon association, you've been given, among other things, a social
life.
I'm not a particularly social person. I came onto this group because of the
music, and I spent three years expecting a 3-CD set of new and unheard Zevon
performances. That was a very tantalizing prospect. Unlike you, I'm not
about to bow down meekly and thank the person who promised it for breaking
his promise.
There's obviously nothing I can do about it, but at least I'll express a
little anger and resentment over this fiasco before moving on. I would be
happy to yell at the Rhino executives if I knew who the hell they were.
What's missing in this whole affair is a concern for us, the Zevon
community. Jordan talked about himself and his nephews only. He declared the
deal closed without consulting anyone. That's certainly his right, of
course, but I have every fucking right to feel betrayed.
OTOH, I was happy with the volume of Zevon music before I ever heard about a
box set, and it won't take me very long to be happy again. And I'll finish
the Songs of the Week a lot faster as well, not that that was ever really a
goal of mine.
Lucy
that we are owed this boxed set. Jordan has not closed the
door permanently on the music eventually being released -
just not through Rhino. And no one not directly involved is
owed any kind of explanation.
Jordan thought he was doing us a favor, letting us in early
on the prospect. And if you think *you're* disappointed,
just imagine how the hell he feels, after working three
years in good faith on this project only to have the rug
pulled out from under him.
And just how do you know JZ consulted no one? Because he
didn't ask Howard Roseman what he should do? Should he have
gone on Dr. Phil and asked for advice? Asked the Playboy
Advisor?
Jordan promised his Dad certain things, among them was to
protect his legacy. And if that means disappointing Howard
Roseman...well, tough shit, Howie. Promises to Dad are WAY
more important than issuing boxed sets for hordes of any
kind, understanding acolytes or arrogant sons of bitches.
-- Lucy
Howard Roseman
a contest to give it a name just a months ago, then pulled the rug. The word
"promise" is a reasonable description. I'm not going to apologize for
feeling some resentment at this.
So why did it take 3 years? Why didn't anyone capitalize on Warren's
notoriety when The Wind came out? Why must I assume that Rhino is to blame?
Why should anyone believe the boxed set will ever come out after this failed
attempt? How is Warren's legacy protected by keeping his music from the
public? Why is it "arrogant" of me to ask these questions? This isn't a
cult.
Jordan can't be as disappointed as us - he's already heard all the music.
Michel
BB in awhile either, so I thought I would take a gander.
Howie, I have ZERO desire to start another fight with you after managing
somehow to put things right. HOWEVER...
How DARE you think we are owed anything. And same for demanding to know
details. This is none of our damn business AND has it ever ocurred to you
that JZ is bound by legalities NOT to say much ?. All that JZ did was maybe
speak before he ought to have.
You are behaving like a spoiled bratt. While you have done a very wonderful
thing for the planet with the DVD's, they entitles you to NOTHING but our
sincere thanks.
Get a grip. And act like a grown up. I swear if I read one more word
chastizing Jordan I will do something evil. Got no idea what, but I will
think of something. This is just assisnine.
What we SHOULD be doing is thanking Jordan for all his hard work and
offering condolences that Rhino screwed him over. And then letting it go
until if and when JZ decides to once again fight the good fight.
For somebody who has such a deep heart in other areas, your attittude both
amazes and saddens me beyond measure.
- Michel
"Lucy" <lpf...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:mkLng.6684$w84....@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
Lucy
> Your response is petulant spin.
Well, without quotes, I can't tell if you mean me or Michel
(or both). Call it what you want. That doesn't make it any
less valid.
>> Jordan can't be as disappointed as us - he's already
heard all the music.
I can't believe you said that. You waste three years of
your life on a project that falls apart just as it nears
completion and then say that.
-- Lucy
Valerie Brock
for an argument about the Box Set.
I'd like to say that EHH is my favorite Warren Zevon song, which I guess
makes it my favorite song, period. It's brilliant in the complexity of the
music and the lyrics. And, Warren's voice and perfomance on this song are
his absolute best. It's beautiful and evocative and lucid, presenting a
familiar emotion in an entirely new light. Regrets, remorse...I think of
them, maybe even feel them differently since this song permeated my
consciousness.
In the last few months of 2003, I listened to this song at least twice a
day. "If after all is said and done..." breaks my heart every time. Now I
just savor it when it comes around again.
Finally, to add to the discussion of who it is "about," I figured it was
Crystal, given that it's on BLSIDS, but for this one, it really doesn't
matter. The song is about the singer, the way we kill the things we love,
and are just left with the Sisyphean task of doing it all again. Sometimes
you make huge mistakes that can't be fixed.
Michel
Any time an entertainer can get feedback like this:
"maybe even feel them differently since this song permeated my
> consciousness."
it is a glorious gift.
I guarantee you Warren would be very touched.
That is after all the point. Evoking emotion and maybe helping,
enlightening, or just plain pleasing people.
- Michel
"Valerie Brock" <valeri...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:OnZng.63429$mF2....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Howard Roseman
> Well, without quotes, I can't tell if you mean me or Michel
> (or both). Call it what you want. That doesn't make it any
> less valid.
>
The time stamp tells you I responded before Michel's first post. I'm
reluctant to read hers because she's probably going to threaten to cut
something off of mine. If I do read it, I won't be responding.
As for valid, you responded to my legitimate questions with name-calling and
sarcasm. That dilutes the validity right out of the gate. What I can
guarantee you is that I'm by no means the only one having these emotions,
just the only one openly expressing them.
> >> Jordan can't be as disappointed as us - he's already
> heard all the music.
>
> I can't believe you said that. You waste three years of
> your life on a project that falls apart just as it nears
> completion and then say that.
>
It was tongue-in-cheek, but not totally. Again, I still cannot understand
why box sets of other artists come out every week but the Zevon set took
three years ... to NOT come out.
Howard Roseman
then
> for an argument about the Box Set.
>
That's on me, of course, and I'm sorry, Valerie. But like I said, it was a
depressing week. Perhaps in future, though, I'll cover politics and box sets
in separate threads.
Thank you for your comments below. You're a hell of a writer! EHH is not my
favourite Zevon song (I have a real weakness for Deperados Under The Eaves
and a few others) but it's right up there.
Jim R
"Michel" <msmikev...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:VIydnWg2Z-UyxD3Z...@comcast.com...
> I hadn't been here in a while and then I realized Howard hadn't been to
the
> BB in awhile either, so I thought I would take a gander.
>
> Howie, I have ZERO desire to start another fight with you after managing
> somehow to put things right. HOWEVER...
>
> How DARE you think we are owed anything. And same for demanding to know
> details. This is none of our damn business AND has it ever ocurred to you
> that JZ is bound by legalities NOT to say much ?.
I don't know, he didn't say.
All that JZ did was maybe
> speak before he ought to have.
>
> You are behaving like a spoiled bratt. While you have done a very
wonderful
> thing for the planet with the DVD's, they entitles you to NOTHING but our
> sincere thanks.
>
I've done nothing for Zevon and so there is no way I feel entitled to
anything but I can still be irritated when this is announced; and no I don't
have to be as irritated as JZ to still feel screwed.
> Get a grip. And act like a grown up. I swear if I read one more word
> chastizing Jordan I will do something evil. Got no idea what, but I will
> think of something. This is just assisnine.
>
Well that statement is just asinine. The man is above criticism? Our
Divine Lord Jordan!
What now, pistols at 20 paces?
> What we SHOULD be doing is thanking Jordan for all his hard work and
> offering condolences that Rhino screwed him over. And then letting it go
> until if and when JZ decides to once again fight the good fight.
>
You assume Rhino screwed him over based only on His Divine Word, right?
Because that is all We have to go on. Perhaps Rhino is the land of evil but
I have certainly bought a lot of their product over the years and have
always felt they have done a pretty good job of things. Why, when they had
an online trivia contest and I was unable to log on they sent a free cd of
Ray Charles' Greatest Hits for my inconvenience; not exactly the evil
empire, although it was a cut-out. Of course that was a few years ago and
there seems to be a bit of turnover in that industry. Some executives might
even feel pressured to make the best deals that they can for their
company... bastards! Jordan has every right to turn down the offer, and he
did. I have every right to be pissed off, and I am. Oh yea, and thanks
Jordan.
> For somebody who has such a deep heart in other areas, your attittude both
> amazes and saddens me beyond measure.
>
> - Michel
Sorry, since this is addressed to Howard I guess I can only say that my
heart is quite shallow in most areas.
Jim
Lucy
>
> The time stamp tells you I responded before Michel's first post.
Well, that was weird. I noticed the time stamp thing after
I hit send, but in my Thunderbird display, your post was
indented after hers, as though it were a reply to hers. <shrug>
Sorry for that.
-- Lucy
Joanne Corsano
>chastizing Jordan I will do something evil.
Uh .... I don't want to get into the middle of this dopey argument,
but I have to say this "Jordan can do no wrong" attitude bugs me, a
lot. All I see in Howard's post is a suggestion that Jordan may not
be entirely free of "blame" in the demise of the box set. We won't
hear the record company's side of the story, and Jordan knows the fans
will be on his side, so he is free to put whatever spin on the
situation he wants. Looking back at Jordan's original post on the
subject I can see he wanted to keep the reasons vague, and that's his
right, but it also seems perfectly natural for us fans to speculate
about what really happened.
Jordan *must* own the rights to at least some of the songs that were
going to be on the box set. Making them available as downloads from
WZ.com or from the usual download sites would be a service both to the
fans and to his father's legacy. This is a very common way to
distribute music these days. Has he said anything about this being a
possibility on the bulletin board?
Lucy
> Jordan *must* own the rights to at least some of the songs that were
> going to be on the box set.
Owning the rights to the songs and owning the rights to the
*recordings* are two different things. He has one, but not
the other, so unless/until he acquires the other, we pretty
much have to wait & see what happens...
On the other (empty) hand, this is one of my favorite songs
and I canNOT understand why it was left off the RM love song
compilation.
-- Lucy
ellenro...@gmail.com
links you mentioned and will, no doubt, keep them bookmarked. I'm old
enough to remember the protests of the Vietnam War too, participated in
a few, as well. I don't understand the complacency of the masses
either. This country is quickly becoming very 1984ish and it's scary.
EHH is one of my favorites too, thanks for reminding me which album
it's on. It's one of those that stays in my head for days after hearing
it. And it's easier for my off-key voice to sing along with, because of
the country twang to it. :)
I was really disappointed with the news of the boxed set too, although
I guess Jordan had valid reasons for not signing the contract. I do
believe though, that you have every right to ask whatever questions you
wish and not be chastized for it. This is not a cult, afterall.
And for those who issue threats through these newsgroups, don't the
Internet Police take them seriously? Seems like I read a story a while
back about a guy being arrested. I may have that all wrong, it may have
been a stalking but nevertheless...
Peter Huish
> On the other (empty) hand, this is one of my favorite songs
> and I canNOT understand why it was left off the RM love song
> compilation.
Perhaps there was a quota on non-Atermis recordings?
OR volume 2 will be released next year and then ...
Joanne Corsano
heartbreak at the end of a relationship. A nice, uncomplicated lyric
-- "will I fall in love again, it's a possibility." There's also one
quasi-internal rhyme that I like: "trying to separate the real thing /
from the wishful think - ing."
What really distinguishes this song is Linda Ronstadt's beautiful
"descant," the part of the song where she sings a comment about the
relationship from the woman's point of view. From a production
standpoint, it's a brilliant choice to have this section of the song
sung *while* the male singer is telling his side of the story, as
opposed to making it its own little verse. The use of the descant
technique makes the lyrics a little hard to pick out, but that's what
the lyric sheet is for, and it presents the "feel" of the end of the
relationship -- both parties talking at once, not listening to each
other, just going about their business simultaneously but not
together.
Another nice thing about the descant section is the delicate guitar
work behind Linda's singing. The guitar only appears during this
short bit of the song -- the guitar gives musical accompaniment to the
woman's point of view, while Warren's piano and string arrangement
back up the man's point of view.
Howard Roseman
> "descant," the part of the song where she sings a comment about the
> relationship from the woman's point of view. From a production
> standpoint, it's a brilliant choice to have this section of the song
> sung *while* the male singer is telling his side of the story, as
> opposed to making it its own little verse. The use of the descant
> technique makes the lyrics a little hard to pick out, but that's what
> the lyric sheet is for, and it presents the "feel" of the end of the
> relationship -- both parties talking at once, not listening to each
> other, just going about their business simultaneously but not
> together.
>
Hmm, I've always enjoyed the descant and Linda's singing, but haven't paid
very close attention to her words.
Kind of proves your point, doesn't it?
DrGong
job overseas, its economics, and the top economic folks have been
saying since time immortal that low-skilled manafacting jobs will go
overseas for two reasions, one, the developing world has millions of
young people, while the us is greying out, and secondly, the labor pay
scale and standard of living (including eviromental laws) makes people
want too much in the way of labor costs compaired to US Workers. as
long as folks keep buyiing stuff made by the millions of asian workers
(which quality varies from dirt poor to darn nice) stuff will be made
overseas. Politicos from both parties are the types that are trying to
protect markets and jobs, not ship them overseas, as thats how one gets
elected.
Just to add, I am a zevon fan, enjoy his music, and i will be posting
here, I am not trying to be a troll, but just wanted to make the points
that to call fair is fair (for example, I have yet to see anything that
shows that the 2004 election was "Stolen", (the 2000 election gore made
the mistake of not asking for a recount in ALL counties, where in that
case he might of squeeked though, but even when the newspapers countied
the counties that where callanged, Bush won by a couple 100 votes. and
before you ask, didn't think we should of gone in Iraq, but now that we
are, we better stay till they are ready for us to leave, otherwise we
will pay a lot more then what we paying now for this adventure of poor
taste..
Dan
> Just wanted to add that it wasn't elected officals that been sending
> job overseas, its economics, and the top economic folks have been
> saying since time immortal that low-skilled manafacting jobs will go
> overseas for two reasions, one, the developing world has millions of
> young people, while the us is greying out, and secondly, the labor pay
> scale and standard of living (including eviromental laws) makes people
> want too much in the way of labor costs compaired to US Workers. as
> long as folks keep buyiing stuff made by the millions of asian workers
> (which quality varies from dirt poor to darn nice) stuff will be made
> overseas. Politicos from both parties are the types that are trying to
> protect markets and jobs, not ship them overseas, as thats how one gets
> elected.
>
Economists call that Comparative Advantage. But nothing is static.
Those such as China will see wages rise just like is happening in India.
So wages don't stay the same and the advantage will change. Because
this change is always there, we need to implement social safety nets
that help people transition from job to job when conditions change (but
not become a long-term dole). I think most will agree that global trade
is good for many reasons.
Dan
haro...@yahoo.ca
DrGong wrote:
> Just wanted to add that it wasn't elected officals that been sending
> job overseas, its economics, and the top economic folks have been
> saying since time immortal that low-skilled manafacting jobs will go
> overseas for two reasions, one, the developing world has millions of
> young people, while the us is greying out, and secondly, the labor pay
> scale and standard of living (including eviromental laws) makes people
> want too much in the way of labor costs compaired to US Workers. as
> long as folks keep buyiing stuff made by the millions of asian workers
> (which quality varies from dirt poor to darn nice) stuff will be made
> overseas. Politicos from both parties are the types that are trying to
> protect markets and jobs, not ship them overseas, as thats how one gets
> elected.
>
I'm not sure where this issue of outsourcing came from in this
discussion. I didn't raise it in my original post.
> Just to add, I am a zevon fan, enjoy his music, and i will be posting
> here,
Welcome DrGong. It's always good to have new blood around here (a
not-so-subtle Zevon reference).
> I am not trying to be a troll, but just wanted to make the points
> that to call fair is fair (for example, I have yet to see anything that
> shows that the 2004 election was "Stolen", (the 2000 election gore made
> the mistake of not asking for a recount in ALL counties, where in that
> case he might of squeeked though, but even when the newspapers countied
> the counties that where callanged, Bush won by a couple 100 votes. and
> before you ask, didn't think we should of gone in Iraq, but now that we
> are, we better stay till they are ready for us to leave, otherwise we
> will pay a lot more then what we paying now for this adventure of poor
> taste..
I heard Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on XM today, and he was damn convincing.
He had a lot of facts to support his claims. Democratic-leaning blacks
in particular were singled out in Ohio, with line-ups in some polls of
up to 11 hours, polls being closed early without warning, a terrorist
alert that closed one poll that the FBI disavowed the next day, and so
on. I've been reading and listening to RFK Jr. for years, and I
consider him beyond reproach. Contrast him with the men of the
Republican machine, whom I view as corrupt, merciless, and downright
evil. No contest.
Bush didn't win either election. I'm certain of that. It will take a
long time for the world to dig out from the mess he's created.
I agree with you about Iraq. Once you're in, you can't just pull out.
But I sure wouldn't want to have to explain to a parent why their son
or daughter died there. Neither does Bush, who hasn't attended a single
military funeral.
DrGong
> I heard Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on XM today, and he was damn convincing.
> He had a lot of facts to support his claims. Democratic-leaning blacks
> in particular were singled out in Ohio,
I did not hear the XM interview.
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen
Any Voter who registrataion was not valid at the time of the voting was
allowed to vote and their ballot was sealed pending if they where
properly registered or not. the vast majority of the folks who he is
talking about are those who tried to vote in the wrong precinct, and It
does not matter, if your voting in the wrong precinct, your not going
to be allowed to vote. Secondly, When this issue came up, only ONE
Senator, Democrat or Republican, voted for doing a recount.
>with line-ups in some polls of
> up to 11 hours,
The 2004 election was one of the most voted election in american
history. I do know that my parents had to wait 4 hours in line, and
they where not in a minority area. I personally did the early voting
myself that NC allows.
>polls being closed early without warning, a terrorist
> alert that closed one poll that the FBI disavowed the next day,
One can call in terror and bomb threats and it will close a poll, but
does this mean there was a planned attempt to disenfranchse voters.
Also
> Bush didn't win either election. I'm certain of that. It will take a
> long time for the world to dig out from the mess he's created.
Bush won Both elections, and while one can debate if Gore had all the
florida counties recount, he might of won, he won, and we have to live
with it, if you like him or not.
Howard Roseman
just love the fact that you had all these middle-class Jewish retirees
voting for Pat Buchanan. Sure, that would happen.
Diebold, the biggest maker of voting machines, is clearly on Bush's side.
There's no paper trail, an auditing flaw that no system of internal control
would ever support.
Why is there no national system for voting in the States? It's not that
tough. In Canada and some countries in Europe, the accepted standard for
voting is paper ballots with a single choice, not the farce that transpired
in Florida in 2000. There's an old rule in I.T. - first, make the system
idiot-proof.
Voters should not have to make big sacrifices to vote. I've never seen a
lineup of more than a minute or two in all the votes I've ever participated
in here in Canada. Hours, let alone several hours, looks and sounds like
corruption. You're saying the turnout passed 50% for once and that brought
it crashing down?
This stuff filters down from the top. Cheney leaked the name of a CIA agent
through his chief of staff and it looks like he'll get away with it. More
incomprehensible is that the company he was once CEO of, Halliburton, is now
the beneficiary of several no-bid contracts in Iraq. That alone would force
someone from government in a true democracy.
Going back to Lee Atwater, Republicans have gloried in their slimy ways. The
latest Atwater incarnation is Karl Rove, who virtually glows in pictures,
he's so oily. They do it because they think they have the God-given right to
govern. And they hate Democrats. In fact, one could say they hate them for
their freedoms.
But I still have trouble figuring out a single way the U.S. is better off
since Clinton left office. It seems that everything is worse now, and most
of it cannot be blamed on 9/11, e.g., the horrible response to Katrina. You
can lie, cheat and steal your way into office, but that doesn't mean you'll
have any clue what to do once you're in there.
DrGong
Howard Roseman wrote:
> That 2000 ballot in Palm Beach county in Florida would have confused me. I
> just love the fact that you had all these middle-class Jewish retirees
> voting for Pat Buchanan. Sure, that would happen.
ran for the republican ticket in 1996. in the republican primary in
1996 he had 8788 votes in that county, is it unreasionable to say that
less then 1/2 of those would vote for him as president as a reform
ticket 4 years later (he had 3407 votes in 2000)
> Diebold, the biggest maker of voting machines, is clearly on Bush's side.
> There's no paper trail, an auditing flaw that no system of internal control
> would ever support.
I agree that I hate electronic machines, as I like a paper trail to
look at, if anything else, there is little room for complaining on a
election if you have a phiscal ballot to look at.
> Why is there no national system for voting in the States? It's not that
> tough. In Canada and some countries in Europe, the accepted standard for
> voting is paper ballots with a single choice, not the farce that transpired
> in Florida in 2000. There's an old rule in I.T. - first, make the system
> idiot-proof.
Well since we a republic, we have each state makes its own rules on
things such as Felons voting, how the ballot works, and what offices
are electable. In NC Registers of Deeds is a elected office, and so
is a number of other normally civil service jobs. Also, how would a
national ballot effect things such as regional parties, (not all people
seeking election for president have enough support in each state to get
on each state ballot) or the state offices from states that range from
Nabraska (which is Unicameral (only one house of congress) to the state
of LA, which has a massive series of runoffs.
>
> Voters should not have to make big sacrifices to vote. I've never seen a
> lineup of more than a minute or two in all the votes I've ever participated
> in here in Canada. Hours, let alone several hours, looks and sounds like
> corruption. You're saying the turnout passed 50% for once and that brought
> it crashing down?
Well when you have a voting station where it is open to 7pm, and all
the folks who vote show up from 530-700 pm (if you in line in a voting
station when polls close, you can vote, just no more people are added
to the line) and also when you have some districts where many people
are not properly registered, and have to go tough the long process of
doing a provisional ballot (A ballot that is held till after the
election, and if it close enough to require a vote, each provisoinal
ballot is looked at to see if it was propertly registered, and if so,
is counted. ) I know that at local election offices in 2004 the wait
went from 0 mins. to 1 1/2 hours depending if you went on a slow time
or at lunch or after work.
>
> This stuff filters down from the top. Cheney leaked the name of a CIA agent
> through his chief of staff and it looks like he'll get away with it. More
> incomprehensible is that the company he was once CEO of, Halliburton, is now
> the beneficiary of several no-bid contracts in Iraq. That alone would force
> someone from government in a true democracy.
We have a republic, and they had plenty of flack for this, however he
still holds office due to the fact that the majority of folks agree
with their choices or didn't care to vote.
>
> Going back to Lee Atwater, Republicans have gloried in their slimy ways. The
> latest Atwater incarnation is Karl Rove, who virtually glows in pictures,
> he's so oily. They do it because they think they have the God-given right to
> govern. And they hate Democrats. In fact, one could say they hate them for
> their freedoms.
Freedom to be taxed to death? I loose over a 1/3 of my paycheck to
taxes, and that doesn't even count local and state taxes, let alone
stuff like social security that I will never see. And I am not a fat
cat, I am a midlevel civil servent who gets civil servent pay. Welders
make more then me. Its not like Morris, who was clintons right had
man, was a angel. Rove is good at his job as the hardest part to win
a election is getting people to go out and vote. Rove did this in
servreal ways, and its more noteworthy for taking a issue that has
little general support, but is supported by the left core of the
democrats (In this case, gay marriage) and used it to get people to
vote. Democrates to win need to A) Relize that if they don't have a
canadate to win a single southern state, they have zero chances to win.
If Gore had won his home state of Tenn. He would be president (at
least from 2000-2004) and if Kerry had won his running mates state, he
would of had a very good chance to be president. If you look at who
democrates have won and lost with, those who where center leaning and
from the south could win the presidentcy, while left leaning or
northern democrats don't have enough national support to win.
Democrats fail to get things that southern democrats get exciting about
(say, solving proverty or (gasp) morality ) and to win enough
independents to win a handful of southern states. Republicans have
the farmlands in the midwest tied up, democrats have the northern
cities locked up. Along with California and most of the pacific
coast. However if democrats don't win a single southern state, then
they must win almost all the other states that are "up for grabs" to
win.
> But I still have trouble figuring out a single way the U.S. is better off
> since Clinton left office. It seems that everything is worse now, and most
> of it cannot be blamed on 9/11, e.g., the horrible response to Katrina. You
> can lie, cheat and steal your way into office, but that doesn't mean you'll
> have any clue what to do once you're in there.
Katrina was a Horrid failure at all points of government, Federal,
state, and Local, and local and state failures have just as much baring
on the Katreina mess as the federal does, and much federal help was
tied up due to the great state of LA refusing help outright (in
refusing to federlizing the area once they became aware they didn't
have the ablity to deal with the stress of the issue) to local
governments not having the plans to get a cities population evacuated
in case of a emergency (which under the US governement, is a LOCAL
reponsablity, as the federal job is find a place for all the folks to
go to once they get out of said cities.)
Don't get me wrong, I am not a huge bush fan and I am a registered
Indepentdent. Both Parties are full of crooks. I hope someone like
Powell, John McCain, Mark R. Warner , or Bill Richardson is a candiate.
Other states have had massive hurricanes hit low-tidal areas, but
due to the compitant local and state government, they where able to
survive.
cc
I am not as much of a fan of the Warren Zevon album as probably most others
here, and this kind of complex balladry moves into uncomfortable
territory--rather than zevon's classical background, I think of billy joel.
When emotional lyrics are put on top of changes like these, they tend to
sound mawkish rather than affecting.
What saves the song for me are zevon's powerful piano playing--the song as
I've said is overcomplicated, but he doesn't show off in the
performance--and, more so, his obviously drunken vocals, which give the
song an edge it would otherwise lack. As a listener, you're not quite sure
what's going to happen next, and the successful end sounds like a relief to
all involved. An interesting recording.
cc
Howard Roseman
It's about time someone posted a really contrarian view.
But are you saying you think Warren was drunk while recording EHH?
Jim R
"DrGong" <Drg...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1152303648.2...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >
> > Going back to Lee Atwater, Republicans have gloried in their slimy ways.
The
> > latest Atwater incarnation is Karl Rove, who virtually glows in
pictures,
> > he's so oily. They do it because they think they have the God-given
right to
> > govern. And they hate Democrats. In fact, one could say they hate them
for
> > their freedoms.
> Freedom to be taxed to death? I loose over a 1/3 of my paycheck to
> taxes, and that doesn't even count local and state taxes, let alone
> stuff like social security that I will never see. And I am not a fat
> cat, I am a midlevel civil servent who gets civil servent pay. Welders
> make more then me.
If you lose over 1/3 of your paycheck to federal income taxes, then you are
in fact a fat cat in my book, since 33 percent is the second highest tax
bracket and even for a single taxpayer doesn't kick in until your taxable
income exceeds $150,000. And that is taxable income after exemptions and
deductions and again only on marginal income over that amount. If you are a
civil servant making that kind of money then you should probably keep quiet
about being "taxed to death." You're part of the problem!
> Its not like Morris, who was clintons right had
> man, was a angel. Rove is good at his job as the hardest part to win
> a election is getting people to go out and vote. Rove did this in
> servreal ways, and its more noteworthy for taking a issue that has
> little general support, but is supported by the left core of the
> democrats (In this case, gay marriage) and used it to get people to
> vote.
Rove always reminds me of that character in the movie No Way Out who is the
Senator's assistant and shoots himself; something about this similarity has
always creeped me out a bit.
One thing about Rove is that at least he appears to represent his beliefs
with his actions and his support of Bush. Morris would go wherever the
biggest check was coming from.
> Democrates to win need to A) Relize that if they don't have a
> canadate to win a single southern state, they have zero chances to win.
> If Gore had won his home state of Tenn. He would be president (at
> least from 2000-2004) and if Kerry had won his running mates state, he
> would of had a very good chance to be president. If you look at who
> democrates have won and lost with, those who where center leaning and
> from the south could win the presidentcy, while left leaning or
> northern democrats don't have enough national support to win.
> Democrats fail to get things that southern democrats get exciting about
> (say, solving proverty or (gasp) morality ) and to win enough
> independents to win a handful of southern states. Republicans have
> the farmlands in the midwest tied up, democrats have the northern
> cities locked up. Along with California and most of the pacific
> coast. However if democrats don't win a single southern state, then
> they must win almost all the other states that are "up for grabs" to
> win.
>
>
Sounds like you've got it all figured out.
Jim
DrGong
> If you lose over 1/3 of your paycheck to federal income taxes, then you are
> in fact a fat cat in my book, since 33 percent is the second highest tax
> bracket and even for a single taxpayer doesn't kick in until your taxable
> income exceeds $150,000. And that is taxable income after exemptions and
> deductions and again only on marginal income over that amount. If you are a
> civil servant making that kind of money then you should probably keep quiet
> about being "taxed to death." You're part of the problem!
I refer "withholdings" as taxes. Social security and medicare are
taxes as well, even if they are put under "withholdings" and not listed
as taxes.
I earn ~35,000 a year, out of the 3000 a month, My take home pay after
Federal taxes and withholdings is under 2,000 a month. Its not
poverty, but in the housing market I am in, It barely gets by once you
include that I have to pay back college loans, which where sizable even
if I got a masters from a public university (and took only 6 years to
do it) .
>
>
> >
>
> Sounds like you've got it all figured out.
>
> Jim
Well Jim, If the dems can't win a southern state, how can they win a
election? It is why that the only democratic presidents in almost 40
years have been from the south. It darn hard to win a election when
you give up these states
Alabama 9
Arkansas 6
Florida 27
Georgia 15
Kentucky 8
Louisiana 9
Mississippi 6
North Carolina 15
South Carolina 8
Virginia 13
thats 116 votes in a election you only need 270 to win
throw in Texas 34 votes you have a block of 150 votes.
that means that a republican only has to win 120 electorial votes out
of the 388 left(less then a 1/3). or if you a democrat, that means you
have to win 270 out of 388 votes.
and this doesn't include other republican strongholds such as Alaska,
the midwest heartland, and the western areas on the coast.
Over 40 years if you count texas as a southern state(which I do not)
Jim R
>
>
> > If you lose over 1/3 of your paycheck to federal income taxes, then you
are
> > in fact a fat cat in my book, since 33 percent is the second highest tax
> > bracket and even for a single taxpayer doesn't kick in until your
taxable
> > income exceeds $150,000. And that is taxable income after exemptions
and
> > deductions and again only on marginal income over that amount. If you
are a
> > civil servant making that kind of money then you should probably keep
quiet
> > about being "taxed to death." You're part of the problem!
>
> I refer "withholdings" as taxes. Social security and medicare are
> taxes as well, even if they are put under "withholdings" and not listed
> as taxes.
Your original comment was "I loose (sic) over a 1/3 of my paycheck to
taxes, and that doesn't even count local and state taxes, let alone
stuff like social security that I will never see"
The phrase "that doesn't even count local and state taxes, let alone stuff
like social security" would lead me to believe the 1/3 you talk about is
federal income taxes since I doubt that you are having federal excise taxes
or gasoline taxes withheld from your pay.
>
> I earn ~35,000 a year, out of the 3000 a month, My take home pay after
> Federal taxes and withholdings is under 2,000 a month. Its not
> poverty, but in the housing market I am in, It barely gets by once you
> include that I have to pay back college loans, which where sizable even
> if I got a masters from a public university (and took only 6 years to
> do it) .
>
If you are making 35k a year you should definitely not be paying over 1/3 of
your pay in taxes. 7.65 percent for ss/medicare, less than 15 percent for
federal and the typical state and local taxes don't run more than 7 percent.
And all of these, excepting ss/medicare, would allow some sort of personal
exemptions and/or standard deductions which would limit your "taxable
income" to begin with. I would estimate that only 22 percent of your gross
pay is going be taxed.
> >
> >
> > >
> >
> > Sounds like you've got it all figured out.
> >
> > Jim
>
> Well Jim, If the dems can't win a southern state, how can they win a
> election? It is why that the only democratic presidents in almost 40
> years have been from the south. It darn hard to win a election when
> you give up these states
>
> Alabama 9
> Arkansas 6
> Florida 27
> Georgia 15
> Kentucky 8
> Louisiana 9
> Mississippi 6
> North Carolina 15
> South Carolina 8
> Virginia 13
>
> thats 116 votes in a election you only need 270 to win
> throw in Texas 34 votes you have a block of 150 votes.
>
> that means that a republican only has to win 120 electorial votes out
> of the 388 left(less then a 1/3). or if you a democrat, that means you
> have to win 270 out of 388 votes.
>
> and this doesn't include other republican strongholds such as Alaska,
> the midwest heartland, and the western areas on the coast.
>
>
>
> Over 40 years if you count texas as a southern state(which I do not)
>
As I said, it seems you have it all figured out.
Jim
Valerie Brock
I've listened to this song at least 1000 times and that had never occurred
to me. He may have been drunk, but it's not "obvious" to this listener!
Howard Roseman
> election?
I've always considered the Republicans' domination of the southern states to
be less a problem of Democrats and more an indictment of southern white men.
- H, a northern white man
DrGong
the white house. Dems Like it or not must be able to win a couple of
southern states (and I don't think you would be the type would would
think a democrat like clinton to be evil) then get used to be a
minority party. Southerns have just as much of a right to voice there
opinion as you do.
DrG - A northern white male living in the south.
and 35k a year does mean 1/3 of paycheck goes, I earn over 3000 a month
pre-taxes/withholdings, and take home less then 2000.
cc
<valeri...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"Obviously drunken vocals"??!!
>
> I've listened to this song at least 1000 times and that had never occurred
>to me. He may have been drunk, but it's not "obvious" to this listener!
>
Is it so odd to suggest? Only if this album is supposed to have been
recorded in a sober period.
Several of the vocals on this album sound this way to me. We know he was a
"shaky" singer--I mean not always right in tune, but also that he (maybe as
a compensation) adds some vibrato, which is important to his "voice," I
think--but especially so on this album. Another possibility is that the
album was mastered to sound slower than it was recorded, for whatever
reason: many of the songs almost drag in tempo, something I really like
about the album. The instruments are well recorded (though the songs are
not always ideally produced, imo), and the sloow speeds bring that out. But
that makes it harder for a singer like zevon to sound on pitch.
Howard Roseman
a clip of him on DVD 5, shot from the back, where he's "obviously" hammered,
but I defy anyone to point to a similar studio track. My take is that Warren
treated the recording studio as hallowed ground and came there to work,
period. Not on EHH nor on any other song was he anything other than stone
cold sober.
jsj...@iserv.net
Well I think your take is way off the mark here. Particularly on EB I
think there are some quotes from WZ regarding his condition in the
studio. Something to the effect of - what you hear is the best that
Jackson and Waddy could drag out of him in the studio because of his
chemically enhanced condition.
I will have to do some checking to see if I can find the interview the
quote was in; but that is my recollection. It was the 70's man, what
did you expect?
Now I don't notice a poor vocal anywhere because of this but that
doesn't mean it's not there.
Jim
Valerie Brock
> recorded in a sober period.
It's not odd to suggest it, but you sounded pretty sure when you said
"obviously drunk." I agree with Howard on this, though. We know what
Warren sounds like drunk, and this isn't it.
Interesting perspective on the slowed tempo; though. That also had never
occured to me, and I'll listen to the album again; maybe I can hear what you
hear.
Howard Roseman
> think there are some quotes from WZ regarding his condition in the
> studio. Something to the effect of - what you hear is the best that
> Jackson and Waddy could drag out of him in the studio because of his
> chemically enhanced condition.
>
> I will have to do some checking to see if I can find the interview the
> quote was in; but that is my recollection. It was the 70's man, what
> did you expect?
>
> Now I don't notice a poor vocal anywhere because of this but that
> doesn't mean it's not there.
>
> Jim
>
My take may be way of the mark, Jim, but it's based on my ears, not
someone's quotes, Warren's or otherwise.
Like I'm sure most people here, I've seen my share of alcoholic behaviour
(some of it my own). I know what a drunk sounds like, and I've never heard
one phrase from Warren ON HIS ALBUMS that led me to believe he wasn't all
together in the studio, regardless of what he himself said about it.
Now, he wasn't any ordinary imbiber. His admission to Letterman in '82 that
he was downing a couple of bottles of vodka per day--that's just staggering.
It's possible he was two or three sheets to the wind while recording EB and
we cannot hear any trace of it.
But, as I pointed out, there's plenty of booted stuff circulating where we
can hear what he sounded like really drunk. You don't hear that on the
albums.
And with Empty-Handed Heart, which started this discussion in the first
place, I hear a singer in full possession of his faculties. Period, end of
story.
Valerie Brock
loudly, and listened to EHH twice. I can't detect the slightest hint of a
slur or loss of command in his voice.
I was listening for the slowness you described throughout the album, and
didn't hear that, either, but am not taking umbrage at it.
Howard Roseman
today,
> loudly, and listened to EHH twice. I can't detect the slightest hint of a
> slur or loss of command in his voice.
>
Perhaps cc was listening with those special headphones you can buy that add
various effects.
> I was listening for the slowness you described throughout the album, and
> didn't hear that, either, but am not taking umbrage at it.
>
Not a bad idea to take some umbrage right now, considering how bloody hot
it's been in the sun.