OT: Job Growth
ShorThing7
then focused on limp job growth. Oh well back to a song and dance about Iraq
(which he voted in favor of). Poor guy.
Chuck
ShorThing7
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20031003083509990007
Michel Forest
And the latest LA Times poll has him at 47%, Bush at 44% and Nader at 3%.
Poor guy indeed.
ShorThing7
I think the Dems will nominate a real dud. They could win but not with Kerry.
Too liberal, too uninspiring, and too often on three sides of two sided issues.
I think he fits in better as a mortician.
Chuck
Kevin Caffrey
>From: Michel Forest for...@sympatico.ca
>Date: 4/2/04 1:59 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <YEibc.77390$1A6.2...@news20.bellglobal.com>
Let's see what the polls are after Bush and Kerry start having debates.
Kevin Caffrey
>Date: 4/2/04 5:00 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20040402170020...@mb-m19.aol.com>
The fact that the fact that he graduated from Yale and then chose to go to
Vietnam to serve his country is pretty inspiring.
I guess that's just me tho.
luckyvic
cuntree to faite thee war on terra and so I can cuntinew to be a "wartime
prezident"! Yeefakinhaw!!
Georgedubyashrub
"ShorThing7" <short...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040402130528...@mb-m29.aol.com...
JMH
plus dead, no end in sight, barbarism only getting worse and worse in Iraq,
and the Mission is Accomplished??? Mortician is Dubya again because
Medicare is now going broke 7 years earlier than predicted thanks to the
giveaway to the rich! Yea that'll bury a bunch!!! And let's not forget
the modern day Grim Reaper himself, Alan Greenspan, god forbid he say
anything about tax structure and social security benefits. No sir he knows
which side of the bread his butter is on . Nope, better to reduce benefits
then re-structure the tax code......WTG AL!!!!!!! You're on the team!!!!
Your seat on the Board at Halliburton is secure.
I'm not sure Dubya will leave voluntarily after he's beaten this fall, my
gut tells me that on January 19 or thereabouts, maybe at halftime of some
NFL playoff game, he will come on TV and say "The War on Terror is too
critical to come in SECOND to some backwards partisan bickering....that's
why Justice Scalia is here and he will administer a war time oath of office
to myself and Chaancellor Cheney. The oath has been reviewed and approved
by The Right Reverend and High Rector Ashcroft and so the legal angle is
set! We shall serve as long as required."
Yea there's a mortician in the race allright
;)
jmh
"ShorThing7" <short...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040402170020...@mb-m19.aol.com...
JT
> hmm Wonder what John Kerry will do now. Started with hopes of a limp economy,
> then focused on limp job growth. Oh well back to a song and dance about Iraq
> (which he voted in favor of). Poor guy.
Oh, I don't know, one month of job growth after how many jobs lost.
And did you look to see how many of those jobs are manufacturing or
other decent paying jobs. Kerry will do fine.
>
> Chuck
David Rheault
"JT" <jtyes...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:91f973f4.04040...@posting.google.com...
Millions of unemployed translate into millions of votes. Woe to he who
forgeteth that fact come November. But if the domestic economy wasn't a
priority before why would it be now?
dcr
ShorThing7
>NFL playoff game, he will come on TV and say "The War on Terror is too
>critical to come in SECOND to some backwards partisan bickering
LOL Ive been waiting for this. Solidifies my opinion that the anti-Bush hating
kooks are as nutty or nuttier than the anti-Clinton hating kooks of the 90's.
They were spreading the same nonsense when Willy's time was running low. Its
all very entertaining.
Chuck
ShorThing7
We all know how reliable polls are at this very early juncture. Dukakis ahead
of poppy B later in the game by 14 points, Carter ahead of Reagan, and even
Dole was ahead of Clinton at this early time.
Chuck
True
sugggested that the Republicans did not feel they could win with any
candidate, so they gave the nod to Bob Dole. With his service in
combat, his years of service in the congress, etc, he was not expected
to damage the party in any way. There have been comparisons made to
the Kerry candidacy and the Dole strategy. Kerry might not inspire,
but he does not tend to annoy most people and hopefully for the
Democrats his campaign would not hurt Democratic candidates for
Congress.
David Rheault
Chuck,
It's going to be a close election, but nobody's victory or defeat is a
foregone conclusion at this point in time. Whether Dubya wins it or Kerry
gets the nod it is going to be a close shave. ;>
Here's what one analyst says about the jobs situation and claims that these
are good signs: "While manufacturing did not gain any jobs, the fact that
this was the first time in 44 months that it did not lose jobs is a
promising sign." And then: "Do not be surprised to see the unemployment
rate edge up even further in the coming months, as more frustrated job
seekers continue to reenter the job market."
Kerry may choose to argue that the unemployment rate is getting worse and he
may be able to prove this to the voters. Of course, more job seekers
entering the market after having totally given up hope of finding work for
the last three years, is a kind of optimism, I guess. Whoever gets the nod
should come up with a significantly strengthened economy in tow, until the
next recession, of course. And consciously adopted policies can lengthen or
shorten the unemployment side of the next one.
dcr
JMH
as you see it all slipping away, the New World Order fading into the summer
and then early fall night, perhaps Chancellor Cheney can come over and
hold your hand, maybe whisper some words of wisdom, some sweet lil nothings
in your ear and make you feel alright....he's seems quite adept at this.
If the worst case scenario looms, then Rush can Fed Ex you some 'scrip pads
(Still good in Florida!)
;)
Note here Sec. of State Powell says today that WMD ramp up to war based on
"Flawed Sources", way to fall on your sword general!
jmhnews:20040403060652...@mb-m02.aol.com...
JT
He'll be tough to beat, even if the economy continues to limp along.
He has the Christian Right, Right to Arms folks, anti-abortionist,
etc. locked in, no way they will vote for Kerry. He's got the
campaign war chest, 170 billion to spend. Look what the ads are doing
to Kerry in the polls in the swing states.
>
>
> dcr
JT
You know your right, Nader could make a big comeback.
Jim
>
> Chuck
ShorThing7
>"Flawed Sources", way to fall on your sword general!
Same flawed info that Bill Clinton, John Kerry, and Madeline not too Bright,
amongst many used to say that SH had WMD's and needed to be disarmed. John
Kerry said "any and every means necessary should be used to disarm this madman"
- that of course was prior to his flip-flop du jour. But that doesn't matter
Bush is just a liar, right?. Good non bias view. They all were screwed by
faulty intelligence.
Chuck
Chuck
Chuck
ShorThing7
>but he does not tend to annoy most people and hopefully for the
>Democrats his campaign would not hurt Democratic candidates for
>Congress.
Nor Hillary for ' 08. Well stated.
Chuck
ShorThing7
>foregone conclusion at this point in time. Whether Dubya wins it or Kerry
>gets the nod it is going to be a close shave. ;>
Totally agreed. Neither has the power or charisma to take 4-5% points from the
2000 vote.
> "Do not be surprised to see the unemployment
>rate edge up even further in the coming months,
5.6% is what the average was in the booming 90's. Growth has been good and the
stock market healthy. I just think the dems are running out of cards and their
hopes of a crashing economy have faded.
>strengthened economy in tow, until the
>next recession
Its all cyclical and this game of "the guy in there gets all the credit and all
the blame" is absurd. If you want to be absurd then I can play. Bush inherited
a recession, then slammed with 9/11, the fact that the economy is robust is
miraculous and a tribute to our great resilient nation (sorry gmelin) more than
any political talking head.
Chuck
ShorThing7
>He has the Christian Right, Right to Arms folks, anti-abortionist,
>etc. locked in
The left has no locked in special interests? paleeeez
gmelin
ShorThing7 <short...@aol.com> wrote in article
<20040403161602...@mb-m10.aol.com>...
: >Note here Sec. of State Powell says today that WMD ramp up to war based
People love to keep bringing up the old "Clinton/Kerry/hated Democrat/etc.
had the same flawed information as Bush, so they're just as much to blame."
They conveniently overlook the indisputable fact that *only* G. W.
actually went to war and sacrificed American (and other) lives over this
flawed intelligence. It's almost as though all those other people somehow
managed to figure out that the information was not sufficiently credible as
grounds upon which to base a military action.
Or perhaps it's simply that, unlike Bush, they weren't desperate to invade
Iraq using any pretense available, no matter how flimsy.
--
gmelin
The only thing we learn from history is that we do not learn from history.
-- George Bernard Shaw
David Rheault
>
> > "Do not be surprised to see the unemployment
> >rate edge up even further in the coming months,
>
> 5.6% is what the average was in the booming 90's.
That figure is not really a truthful figure. It's much higher than that as
it doesn't take into account the "discouraged worker" category, those able
to work but who have given up hope of finding employment. It's in the
millions and affect all races, and social categories. I think the real
figure is about 9.7%. If gas goes higher than $2.00/gal make it 10.3%.
>Growth has been good and the
> stock market healthy.
It's a jobless recovery though.
>I just think the dems are running out of cards and their
> hopes of a crashing economy have faded.
You are right in that it may not be enough.
> >strengthened economy in tow, until the
> >next recession
>
> Its all cyclical and this game of "the guy in there gets all the credit
and all
> the blame" is absurd.
True. I never said one person was to blame. But on the otherhand, there are
collective policies that need examining...
>If you want to be absurd then I can play. Bush inherited
> a recession, then slammed with 9/11,
A recession lasting over his whole term?
>the fact that the economy is robust is
> miraculous and a tribute to our great resilient nation (sorry gmelin) more
than
> any political talking head.
The economy is better than over the last 44 months, and sure, our people are
resilient and flexible, but the "jobless" nature of the "recovery" is very
troubling. He must address this if he would be re-elected. He has his
father's example before him. But unless Nader is really a third party
gate-crasher and garners significant votes, the cards are in Dubya's favor
right now. Up to him to prove to the media that he's "smart." ;>
dcr
David Rheault
"Kevin Caffrey" <oldirty...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040402184624...@mb-m18.aol.com...
Tell Chuck to tell Dubya not to say Carbon "bi-oxide" come debate time. ;>
dcr
David Rheault
I'm a little suspicious of a President who won't even drink a beer.
dcr
Stephen Bruun
> I'm a little suspicious of a President who won't even drink a beer.
Where there's beer, there's pretzels, and that's just too dangerous.
--
To reply, remove YOUR OWN EYES
JT
Didn't say they didn't. Paleeeeeeeeeze (liberals use more "e"'s in Paleeeeeeze)
Plus, the far left is silly enough to vote for Nader if he gets on the ballot.
I loathe this administration, but imagine that he'll get reelected.
It's as close as you get to a shorthing.
Jim "Paleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze" Thomas
JT
> news:20040403161602...@mb-m10.aol.com...
> > >Note here Sec. of State Powell says today that WMD ramp up to war based
> on
> > >"Flawed Sources", way to fall on your sword general!
> >
> > Same flawed info that Bill Clinton, John Kerry, and Madeline not too
> Bright,
> > amongst many used to say that SH had WMD's and needed to be disarmed. John
> > Kerry said "any and every means necessary should be used to disarm this
> madman"
> > - that of course was prior to his flip-flop du jour. But that doesn't
> matter
> > Bush is just a liar, right?. Good non bias view. They all were screwed by
> > faulty intelligence.
Except that George wanted to go in there before 9/11. He pushed the
war as part of the neoconservative idea of the US using it's place as
the world power more aggressively. They really believe they will
create a democracy in Iraq, you know, build a nation there.
Oh...remember the debates against Gore when Bush said he was against
the U.S. trying to build nations...is that a flip-flop. Good God how
fast you right wingers grab the pablum dished up by Rush, karl Rove
and the rest of them.
Oh, by the way, when will Rice release the full text of the speech she
was scheduled to give on 9/11/2001 about terrorism and the dangers in
the world. All about ballastic missles and the need for a missle
defense system to fight terror in the world, etc. Very little mention
of Al Queda.
Oh, and speaking of flip and flopping. Didn't they first say that
Clarke and Bush didn't have that conversation about Iraq on 9/12?
Now, they admit to it.
*conservatives*
Jim
ShorThing7
>> a recession, then slammed with 9/11,
>
>A recession lasting over his whole term?
Not at all and I never said that. If you check the figures we have been out of
the definition of a recession for a good 18 months albeit anemic at first.
>"jobless" nature of the "recovery" is very
>troubling.
Employment rate is always the lagging indicator in a recovering economy and
last months numbers are encouraging (unless you route against the economy so
*your* moron can be president).
>right now. Up to him to prove to the media that he's "smart." ;>
Well that aint gonna happen, because he is not the sharpest knife in the
drawer. Funny and likeable thing is he knows that and even derides himself for
it. I think he will win, not because of him but because of the weakness of
Kerry. 98% of dems are talking out of there hatred of Bush - you need appeal
for your candidate to win not just hate for the incumbent.
Chuck
ShorThing7
>
>
>dcr
lol I hope your joking. He has admitted a drinking problem and thus abstains
-
I think it is admirable of him.
Chuck
JT
That, That is, admirable of him. However, did they ever find his
driver's license record for Texas that was conveniently lost prior to
the last election? I'd guess it's a shorthing he had additional DUI's
on there to the one we do know about. And all that fuss about Clinton
not inhaling...
Jim
>
> Chuck
JT
Don't know, hatred of Clinton and therefore Gore seemed to work pretty
well for G.W. in 2000.
>
> Chuck
David Rheault
> >>If you want to be absurd then I can play. Bush inherited
> >> a recession, then slammed with 9/11,
> >
> >A recession lasting over his whole term?
>
> Not at all and I never said that. If you check the figures we have been
out of
> the definition of a recession for a good 18 months albeit anemic at first.
It seems we see new economic phenomena in every presidential administration.
For example, why did inflation remain low under Clinton when we were
operating at full employment? Because we were using a huge population of
imported foreign guestworkers. Why under Bush are we in a recovery that is
essentially jobless in nature? Because we are outsourcing at "an
unprecedented rate."
> >"jobless" nature of the "recovery" is very
> >troubling.
>
> Employment rate is always the lagging indicator in a recovering economy
and
> last months numbers are encouraging
I agree but we need many more months of growing employment and what we are
likely to see is growing unemployment. I recently got an alarmist letter
from my old school's dean saying that graduating students are facing very
grim prospects for post-graduation employment. It is going to be grim
indeed. And this is quite sad because opportunities are becoming
"generational and demographic" in nature: full pensions and employment for
baby boomers and shit left-overs for Gen X and Y. Overall, Gen X and Y are
smarter and more qualified (they are required to have those degrees and
certificates) than the previous generation yet they find the opportunities
more limited. We don't know how this will be born out in the long haul.
Overall, major corporations are not planning to add much staff in 2004.
There is simply no incentive to do so. But of course, if they wanted to help
GW they would add staff. But most can't look past the next fiscal quarter,
never mind to a crucial election in November.
>(unless you route against the economy so
> *your* moron can be president).
I'll vote the *moron* who is going to make creating jobs a priority and I
won't vote the moron who isn't.
> >right now. Up to him to prove to the media that he's "smart." ;>
>
> Well that aint gonna happen, because he is not the sharpest knife in the
> drawer. Funny and likeable thing is he knows that and even derides himself
for
> it.
Then he should play up his candidness in front of the cameras so that the
American People see the human side of him. Hell, get out and around
Washington DC and go kiss some babies or something.
>I think he will win, not because of him but because of the weakness of
> Kerry. 98% of dems are talking out of there hatred of Bush - you need
appeal
> for your candidate to win not just hate for the incumbent.
Oh, I quite agree. Dems are stupid just to bank on "everyone hates Bush so
vote for us" strategy. And don't worry, if Kerry plans on lying to the
American People (i.e. I promise to create jobs and then I don't) a special
"wrath" will be reserved for him. But my message to Dubya is: be honest,
admit that the jobs are not there but that he will make job creation a
special focus of his second term.
dcr
The Giotto Lady
<drhe...@erols.com> wrote:
>I recently got an alarmist letter
>from my old school's dean saying that graduating students are facing very
>grim prospects for post-graduation employment.
When my son graduated from college last May, his college president
announced (during the commencement speech!) that my son's class would
be facing the worst job market for new graduates since 1974.
>It is going to be grim
>indeed. And this is quite sad because opportunities are becoming
>"generational and demographic" in nature: full pensions and employment for
>baby boomers and shit left-overs for Gen X and Y.
My son landed his dream job (with full benefits) within eight weeks of
graduation, but he had to beat out 300 other applicants for the
position. (They had more applicants than that, but they capped the
search process at 300.) Ten months later, most of his friends are
still looking, so they're working temp jobs until a professional
situation opens.
>Overall, Gen X and Y are
>smarter and more qualified (they are required to have those degrees and
>certificates) than the previous generation yet they find the opportunities
>more limited. We don't know how this will be born out in the long haul.
An interesting corollary to this is that getting into graduate school
is now more competitive than ever. The schools are inundated with
applications from newly laid off recent grads, who make more
attractive candidates than new grads. My son's college used to have a
graduate school placement rate of nearly 90%. Last year it was down
to 20%, thanks principally to medical school acceptances.
The Giotto Lady
ShorThing7
>well for G.W. in 2000.
I think Gore lost in part because he seperated himself too far from ole Willy.
There was enough enthusiasm for the ole horndog to carry Gore to victory on his
coat tails but he ran away from him.
Chuck
David Rheault
"The Giotto Lady" <giottolady...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:2501705274ffhh3gm...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 4 Apr 2004 16:36:23 -0400, "David Rheault"
> <drhe...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> >I recently got an alarmist letter
> >from my old school's dean saying that graduating students are facing very
> >grim prospects for post-graduation employment.
>
> When my son graduated from college last May, his college president
> announced (during the commencement speech!) that my son's class would
> be facing the worst job market for new graduates since 1974.
Schools didn't see this coming. They just kept accepting more and more
students with the full knowledge that there weren't jobs for them come
graduation. They committed other errors: half-assed their alumni networks
so now they are forced to beg from people who aren't very receptive.
> >It is going to be grim
> >indeed. And this is quite sad because opportunities are becoming
> >"generational and demographic" in nature: full pensions and employment
for
> >baby boomers and shit left-overs for Gen X and Y.
>
> My son landed his dream job (with full benefits) within eight weeks of
> graduation, but he had to beat out 300 other applicants for the
> position. (They had more applicants than that, but they capped the
> search process at 300.) Ten months later, most of his friends are
> still looking, so they're working temp jobs until a professional
> situation opens.
He is very lucky indeed. He must have been very competitive.
> >Overall, Gen X and Y are
> >smarter and more qualified (they are required to have those degrees and
> >certificates) than the previous generation yet they find the
opportunities
> >more limited. We don't know how this will be born out in the long haul.
>
> An interesting corollary to this is that getting into graduate school
> is now more competitive than ever. The schools are inundated with
> applications from newly laid off recent grads, who make more
> attractive candidates than new grads. My son's college used to have a
> graduate school placement rate of nearly 90%. Last year it was down
> to 20%, thanks principally to medical school acceptances.
And this underscores the view these days that most schools are just
businesses offering "product." The economy can't absorb any more MBAs or
Lawyers right now but these schools keep churning them out because that is
all they know how to do. The current system is self-perpetuating. What they
really ought to do is kill off 1/3 to 1/2 of these degrees in response to
market demand. But they are not selling "career opptys for students" they
are selling "grad school slots."
dcr
gmelin
David Rheault <drhe...@erols.com> wrote in article
<40708e35$0$12146$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
: Schools didn't see this coming. They just kept accepting more and more
: students with the full knowledge that there weren't jobs for them come
: graduation.
So what? When did that become the schools' problem? Are you saying the
schools should hold these so-called "adults" by the hand and tell them what
career path they should follow? A diploma does not guarantee an instant
job, and it's *never* been that way. How typical of the X and Y kids to
assume that education is just some formality they go through and there will
be some nice cushy job waiting at the end. Welcome to the real world kids.
They committed other errors: half-assed their alumni networks
: so now they are forced to beg from people who aren't very receptive.
Errors? Bullshit. If any errors are being committed, it's by
directionless slackers who don't pay enough attention to the job market to
see that that MBA they're working toward is not going to be worth much, and
maybe they should come up with an alternative. What happened to taking
control of one's own life. Blaming it on the schools is nothing but a huge
cop-out.
: And this underscores the view these days that most schools are just
: businesses offering "product." The economy can't absorb any more MBAs or
: Lawyers right now but these schools keep churning them out because that
is
: all they know how to do.
As opposed to what?
The current system is self-perpetuating. What they
: really ought to do is kill off 1/3 to 1/2 of these degrees in response to
: market demand. But they are not selling "career opptys for students" they
: are selling "grad school slots."
They are "selling" neither. They offer *education*. Period. What
educational path a student follows is up to the *student*. And what they
do with at education is entirely up to them as well. Period. If your life
isn't as cushy as you thought it would be, then do something about it. But
don't blame the education system because you chose a field without a lot of
prospects.
Jeff Blanks
> >My gut tells me that on January 19 or thereabouts, maybe at halftime of some
> >NFL playoff game, he will come on TV and say "The War on Terror is too
> >critical to come in SECOND to some backwards partisan bickering
>
> LOL I've been waiting for this. Solidifies my opinion that the anti-Bush
> hating kooks are as nutty or nuttier than the anti-Clinton hating kooks
> of the 90's.
Why? *We've* got Florida 2000 to refer to. Why not wonder why people
don't trust Bush? Are you seriously suggesting Bush has less to answer
for than the likes of John Kerry? (Not that I think having kooks on our
side does us any good.)
But it's not about whose kooks are worse, is it?
> They were spreading the same nonsense when Willy's time was running low.
??
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some
strangeness in the proportion." --Sir Francis Bacon
ShorThing7
Absurd comparison reminds me of gmelin comparing FL 2000 to Saddam Hussein
taking 100% of the vote in Iraq. Argueing over the legality of counting
specific dem areas over and over is *not* realistically comparable to Bush
being voted out and refusing to leave come innaugaration day. If you *honestly*
think that will happen then I pity you.
Chuck
JT
> >gut tells me that on January 19 or thereabouts, maybe at halftime of some
> >NFL playoff game, he will come on TV and say "The War on Terror is too
> >critical to come in SECOND to some backwards partisan bickering
>
> kooks are as nutty or nuttier than the anti-Clinton hating kooks of the 90's.
> all very entertaining.
You mean nuttier than the kooks who spent 60 million dollars
investigating the Clintons 40,000 dollar loss in Whitewater? or who
still insist the whitehouse had Vince Foster killed? or who were
bashing Hillary within months of the election? and that's just the
tip of the iceberg. No, as far as kookiness goes this one is as close
as the Florida election...and just like that one, we have to give
G.W.'s fans the edge.
Jim "Kooky is as kooky does" Thomas
>
> Chuck
Mike Smith
He did say "*as nutty* or nuttier". It's not as though either major
party can claim to hold the high ground of kookiness by any clear margin.
--
Mike Smith
David Rheault
"gmelin" <gme...@earthlinkSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:01c41a06$e95e16c0$9af1...@host.mydomain.com...
>
>
> David Rheault <drhe...@erols.com> wrote in article
> <40708e35$0$12146$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
> : Schools didn't see this coming. They just kept accepting more and more
> : students with the full knowledge that there weren't jobs for them come
> : graduation.
>
> So what? When did that become the schools' problem? Are you saying the
> schools should hold these so-called "adults" by the hand and tell them
what
> career path they should follow? A diploma does not guarantee an instant
> job, and it's *never* been that way. How typical of the X and Y kids to
> assume that education is just some formality they go through and there
will
> be some nice cushy job waiting at the end. Welcome to the real world
kids.
It would be interesting to see some jobless grad students actually sue these
schools. The basis of the suit would be that the schools did a hard sell on
these programs, tricked or induced these students into thinking that a $50
or 60,000 investment (because that is what it is) would pay handsome
returns, and actively encouraged students to think in these terms. Companies
are sued under these conditions all the time so why not schools?
> They committed other errors: half-assed their alumni networks
> : so now they are forced to beg from people who aren't very receptive.
>
> Errors? Bullshit. If any errors are being committed, it's by
> directionless slackers who don't pay enough attention to the job market to
> see that that MBA they're working toward is not going to be worth much,
and
> maybe they should come up with an alternative. What happened to taking
> control of one's own life. Blaming it on the schools is nothing but a
huge
> cop-out.
Directionless slackers? You must be talking about undergrads. You certainly
don't mean the young, motivated MBA students working seven days a week
without being paid a dime (including sweating for professors on projects
seriously divorced from marketplace realities)?
Did you hear the one about the "slacker" phd in organic chemistry? He can't
find work either (his livelihood is being outsourced). He thought that
studying a hard science would be his (her) ticket to a stable future. Turns
out, it isn't. Really his only crime is that he was a Grad student in the
'90s instead of the late '70s.
But the way the education system is set up makes it almost impossible for
him to return to school for one or two years and retool for industry's
needs. The way is blocked by phillistine department heads and "tenured"
deadwood. They laugh and guffaw as they pass out "evaluations" and say they
are "protected" from student "opinions."
> : And this underscores the view these days that most schools are just
> : businesses offering "product." The economy can't absorb any more MBAs or
> : Lawyers right now but these schools keep churning them out because that
> is
> : all they know how to do.
>
> As opposed to what?
As opposed to doing what I've suggested: tailoring the programs to be more
in line with job realities. Gmelin, I do so hate to see all those foreign
language and literature students working at Friendly's, but it sounds like
you are OK with it. I think that some of the ones with degrees in Arabic
could have put their talents to work for the US Gov't rather than for the
Wendy's Corp.
One of my French teachers recounted an unpleasant experience before the
class. One of his former students couldn't find a job and did find himself
at McDonald's. He gave the Prof a piece of his mind...in front of the
customers.
> The current system is self-perpetuating. What they
> : really ought to do is kill off 1/3 to 1/2 of these degrees in response
to
> : market demand. But they are not selling "career opptys for students"
they
> : are selling "grad school slots."
>
> They are "selling" neither. They offer *education*. Period. What
> educational path a student follows is up to the *student*.
How popular is a college degree going to be in the future when you could be
an Assistant Manager at Enterprise Rent-A-Wreck and make much more than your
friends? Maybe even more than your professors. But if that's the kind of
work you are going to do you should have started doing it at age 19 and not
"wasted" the time on a useless college degree. You don't need college to
work in such a job. Square that "inflated" bit of nonsense with reality.
Colleges today are "selling" degrees like the Renaissance Vatican used to
sell indulgences. For a price.
Perhaps I could interest you in a lucrative online learning "grad" degree?
You'll get "space age" distance learning and you'll pay through the nose for
the privilege. We're still working out what it will actually do for you
though.
>And what they
> do with at education is entirely up to them as well. Period. If your
life
> isn't as cushy as you thought it would be, then do something about it.
But
> don't blame the education system because you chose a field without a lot
of
> prospects.
People handing out grad degrees today in the US are misleading students. Get
ready for the revolt.
dcr
Mike Smith
>
> It would be interesting to see some jobless grad students actually sue these
> schools. The basis of the suit would be that the schools did a hard sell on
> these programs, tricked or induced these students into thinking that a $50
> or 60,000 investment (because that is what it is) would pay handsome
> returns, and actively encouraged students to think in these terms. Companies
> are sued under these conditions all the time so why not schools?
That's America for you. "I couldn't be bothered to think about my own
future, so I'll sure somebody instead."
> Directionless slackers? You must be talking about undergrads.
In my experience, the term "directionless slackers" could be applied to
plenty of *with* degrees *and* jobs.
> But the way the education system is set up makes it almost impossible for
> him to return to school for one or two years and retool for industry's
> needs.
Really? That's funny; I know quite a few people who did exactly that -
including, BTW, to counter your example of the poor starving chemist,
one fellow who got his degree in chemical engineering, then went back
and became a doctor.
> As opposed to doing what I've suggested: tailoring the programs to be more
> in line with job realities.
Yeah, that's right; let's turn all the universities into Apex Tech.
> Gmelin, I do so hate to see all those foreign
> language and literature students working at Friendly's, but it sounds like
> you are OK with it.
Maybe they should've given a second's thought to the practical
applicability of their "educations".
> One of my French teachers recounted an unpleasant experience before the
> class. One of his former students couldn't find a job and did find himself
> at McDonald's. He gave the Prof a piece of his mind...in front of the
> customers.
It was the professor's fault that the student wasted his college years?
Did the professor recruit this kid out of high school and promise him
employment upon graduation?
> Perhaps I could interest you in a lucrative online learning "grad" degree?
> You'll get "space age" distance learning and you'll pay through the nose for
> the privilege. We're still working out what it will actually do for you
> though.
And anyone who knows better is staying away from such "institutions"
like the plague.
--
Mike Smith
gmelin
David Rheault <drhe...@erols.com> wrote in article
<4071f7ed$0$1634$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
: It would be interesting to see some jobless grad students actually sue
these
: schools. The basis of the suit would be that the schools did a hard sell
Meaning what?
on
: these programs, tricked or induced these students into thinking that a
$50
: or 60,000 investment (because that is what it is) would pay handsome
: returns, and actively encouraged students to think in these terms.
How exactly do the schools "trick" students? What deception is used? And
what "inducements"? The only inducements I know of are the ones athletic
depts use to recruit kids to the team.
Companies
: are sued under these conditions all the time
They're called frivolous lawsuits. Shame on us all that they can win.
so why not schools?
Because the schools have no control whatsoever as to whether or not a grad
gets his dream job immediately after graduation.
: Directionless slackers? You must be talking about undergrads. You
certainly
: don't mean the young, motivated MBA students working seven days a week
: without being paid a dime (including sweating for professors on projects
: seriously divorced from marketplace realities)?
If he carried that work ethic with him to his career search, I suspect he'd
have no problem finding something.
: Did you hear the one about the "slacker" phd in organic chemistry? He
can't
: find work either (his livelihood is being outsourced). He thought that
: studying a hard science would be his (her) ticket to a stable future.
Turns
: out, it isn't. Really his only crime is that he was a Grad student in the
: '90s instead of the late '70s.
His only "crime" was thinking that there's such a thing as a "ticket" to
*anything*.
: But the way the education system is set up makes it almost impossible for
: him to return to school for one or two years and retool for industry's
: needs.
Oh? How is it set up to do that?
The way is blocked by phillistine department heads and "tenured"
: deadwood.
How exactly are they "blocking" him?
They laugh and guffaw as they pass out "evaluations" and say they
: are "protected" from student "opinions."
: As opposed to doing what I've suggested: tailoring the programs to be
more
: in line with job realities.
They tailor the programs to what the students want.
Gmelin, I do so hate to see all those foreign
: language and literature students working at Friendly's, but it sounds
like
: you are OK with it.
What I'm okay with is that life doesn't always work out exactly the way we
want it to. That's (how can I put this?) *life*.
I think that some of the ones with degrees in Arabic
: could have put their talents to work for the US Gov't rather than for the
: Wendy's Corp.
I'd have thought so too, but there you go.
: One of my French teachers recounted an unpleasant experience before the
: class. One of his former students couldn't find a job and did find
himself
: at McDonald's. He gave the Prof a piece of his mind...in front of the
: customers.
I do hope he got fired. The former student that is . . . for berating a
customer. No wonder he's not finding a job, with that sort of attitude.
I'd have sacked his ass on the spot.
: How popular is a college degree going to be in the future when you could
be
: an Assistant Manager at Enterprise Rent-A-Wreck and make much more than
your
: friends? Maybe even more than your professors. But if that's the kind of
: work you are going to do you should have started doing it at age 19 and
not
: "wasted" the time on a useless college degree. You don't need college to
: work in such a job.
Everything you say is essentially true. Let's ask Rob Allen if you need a
fancy college degree to become highly successful. Or Tim Martin. There
are many different life paths one can follow.
Square that "inflated" bit of nonsense with reality.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
: Perhaps I could interest you in a lucrative online learning "grad"
degree?
: You'll get "space age" distance learning and you'll pay through the nose
for
: the privilege. We're still working out what it will actually do for you
: though.
Those "diploma mills" aren't worth spit, but don't use that to tarnish the
entire educational field.
: People handing out grad degrees today in the US are misleading students.
That may be true. Fortunately, any credible educational institution
doesn't just "hand out" degrees.
Get
: ready for the revolt.
Bring it on. If change is needed, I welcome it. But what makes you think
a bunch of McJob slackers who can't take responsibility for their
educational choices are going to suddenly grow a spine and "revolt"?
gmelin
Mike Smith <mike_UNDER...@acm.DOT.org> wrote in article
<1074401...@news.supernews.com>...
: > Gmelin, I do so hate to see all those foreign
: > language and literature students working at Friendly's, but it sounds
like
: > you are OK with it.
:
: Maybe they should've given a second's thought to the practical
: applicability of their "educations".
You can learn a lot about what someone majored in by considering the
questions he asks. For instance:
A science major asks, "What is it?"
An engineering major asks, "How does it work?"
A business major asks "How much does it cost?"
A liberal arts major asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
Thanks folks, I'll be here all week. Try the veal.
The Time Traveler
than you are.
Todd Mitchell
news:<4071f7ed$0$1634$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
> "gmelin" <gme...@earthlinkSPAM.net> wrote in message
> news:01c41a06$e95e16c0$9af1...@host.mydomain.com...
> >
> >
> > David Rheault <drhe...@erols.com> wrote in article
> > <40708e35$0$12146$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
> > : Schools didn't see this coming. They just kept accepting more and more
> > : students with the full knowledge that there weren't jobs for them come
> > : graduation.
> >
> > So what? When did that become the schools' problem? Are you saying the
> > schools should hold these so-called "adults" by the hand and tell them
> what
> > career path they should follow? A diploma does not guarantee an instant
> > job, and it's *never* been that way. How typical of the X and Y kids to
> > assume that education is just some formality they go through and there
> will
> > be some nice cushy job waiting at the end. Welcome to the real world
> kids.
>
> It would be interesting to see some jobless grad students actually sue these
> schools. The basis of the suit would be that the schools did a hard sell on
> these programs, tricked or induced these students into thinking that a $50
> or 60,000 investment (because that is what it is) would pay handsome
> returns, and actively encouraged students to think in these terms. Companies
> are sued under these conditions all the time so why not schools?
LOL. <cues up Pink Floyd "Another Brick in the Wall Pt. II">
> > Errors? Bullshit. If any errors are being committed, it's by
> > directionless slackers who don't pay enough attention to the job market to
> > see that that MBA they're working toward is not going to be worth much,
> and
> > maybe they should come up with an alternative. What happened to taking
> > control of one's own life. Blaming it on the schools is nothing but a
> huge
> > cop-out.
>
> Directionless slackers? You must be talking about undergrads. You certainly
> don't mean the young, motivated MBA students working seven days a week
> without being paid a dime (including sweating for professors on projects
> seriously divorced from marketplace realities)?
"Hey, Teachers! Leave them kids alone!"
> Did you hear the one about the "slacker" phd in organic chemistry? He can't
> find work either (his livelihood is being outsourced). He thought that
> studying a hard science would be his (her) ticket to a stable future. Turns
> out, it isn't. Really his only crime is that he was a Grad student in the
> '90s instead of the late '70s.
>
> But the way the education system is set up makes it almost impossible for
> him to return to school for one or two years and retool for industry's
> needs. The way is blocked by phillistine department heads and "tenured"
> deadwood. They laugh and guffaw as they pass out "evaluations" and say they
> are "protected" from student "opinions."
"We dont need no thought control."
> > : And this underscores the view these days that most schools are just
> > : businesses offering "product." The economy can't absorb any more MBAs or
> > : Lawyers right now but these schools keep churning them out because that
> is
> > : all they know how to do.
> >
> > As opposed to what?
>
> As opposed to doing what I've suggested: tailoring the programs to be more
> in line with job realities. Gmelin, I do so hate to see all those foreign
> language and literature students working at Friendly's, but it sounds like
> you are OK with it. I think that some of the ones with degrees in Arabic
> could have put their talents to work for the US Gov't rather than for the
> Wendy's Corp.
>
> One of my French teachers recounted an unpleasant experience before the
> class. One of his former students couldn't find a job and did find himself
> at McDonald's. He gave the Prof a piece of his mind...in front of the
> customers.
"We don't need no education."
> > The current system is self-perpetuating. What they
> > : really ought to do is kill off 1/3 to 1/2 of these degrees in response
> to
> > : market demand. But they are not selling "career opptys for students"
> they
> > : are selling "grad school slots."
> >
> > They are "selling" neither. They offer *education*. Period. What
> > educational path a student follows is up to the *student*.
>
> How popular is a college degree going to be in the future when you could be
> an Assistant Manager at Enterprise Rent-A-Wreck and make much more than your
> friends? Maybe even more than your professors. But if that's the kind of
> work you are going to do you should have started doing it at age 19 and not
> "wasted" the time on a useless college degree. You don't need college to
> work in such a job. Square that "inflated" bit of nonsense with reality.
That's right, why, look at those people like Bill Gates, Sam Walton,
Donald Trump, they're all *zillionaires* and not a one of 'em has a
useless college edumacation. It's a waste, I tell ya, a *waist*.
> Colleges today are "selling" degrees like the Renaissance Vatican used to
> sell indulgences. For a price.
<gasp> Waaaaa? When did this start?
> Perhaps I could interest you in a lucrative online learning "grad" degree?
> You'll get "space age" distance learning and you'll pay through the nose for
> the privilege. We're still working out what it will actually do for you
> though.
>
> >And what they
> > do with at education is entirely up to them as well. Period. If your
> life
> > isn't as cushy as you thought it would be, then do something about it.
> But
> > don't blame the education system because you chose a field without a lot
> of
> > prospects.
>
> People handing out grad degrees today in the US are misleading students. Get
> ready for the revolt.
pssst...no one say anything, but Dave here sounds like one of
them...<gulp>...*Marxists*
--
I'm Todd Mitchell, and I approved this post.
DLC
"gmelin" <gme...@earthlinkSPAM.net> wrote in message
> can't
> : find work either (his livelihood is being outsourced). He thought that
> : studying a hard science would be his (her) ticket to a stable future.
> Turns
> : out, it isn't. Really his only crime is that he was a Grad student in
the
> : '90s instead of the late '70s.
>
> His only "crime" was thinking that there's such a thing as a "ticket" to
> *anything*.
>
Is this another complaint about the Concertmaps system?
>
> : How popular is a college degree going to be in the future when you could
> be
> : an Assistant Manager at Enterprise Rent-A-Wreck and make much more than
> your
> : friends? Maybe even more than your professors. But if that's the kind of
> : work you are going to do you should have started doing it at age 19 and
> not
> : "wasted" the time on a useless college degree. You don't need college to
> : work in such a job.
>
> Everything you say is essentially true. Let's ask Rob Allen if you need a
> fancy college degree to become highly successful. Or Tim Martin. There
> are many different life paths one can follow.
>
Yeah, but look at the side effects.
> Square that "inflated" bit of nonsense with reality.
>
> I have no idea what you're talking about.
>
I would imagine David gets that a lot.
The Time Traveler
Roger Dean....................Jon Anderson.......Steve
Howe........Alan White.........Chris Squire........Rick Wakeman
...............heaven's band
Matt Putzel
(The Time Traveler) muttered:
>When it comes to money: Don't listen to anyone who isn't doing better
>than you are.
I disagree
Matt
Matt Putzel
(The Time Traveler) muttered:
> Why can't you create your own job? Didn't Jon give you enough faith
>in yourself? You did listen to the song lyrics didn't you?
>
No, I just read the FAQ and I have to say you are way off base here!
David Rheault
"Todd Mitchell" <nous...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ed19fddd.04040...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > It would be interesting to see some jobless grad students actually sue
these
> > schools. The basis of the suit would be that the schools did a hard sell
on
> > these programs, tricked or induced these students into thinking that a
$50
> > or 60,000 investment (because that is what it is) would pay handsome
> > returns, and actively encouraged students to think in these terms.
Companies
> > are sued under these conditions all the time so why not schools?
>
> LOL. <cues up Pink Floyd "Another Brick in the Wall Pt. II">
Punk T-shirt: I Hate Pink Floyd
>
> > Colleges today are "selling" degrees like the Renaissance Vatican used
to
> > sell indulgences. For a price.
>
> <gasp> Waaaaa? When did this start?
15th century. ;>
> >
> > People handing out grad degrees today in the US are misleading students.
Get
> > ready for the revolt.
>
> pssst...no one say anything, but Dave here sounds like one of
> them...<gulp>...*Marxists*
Power to the People! ---Lennon
dcr
David Rheault
"gmelin" <gme...@earthlinkSPAM.net> wrote in message
>
> Companies
> : are sued under these conditions all the time
>
> They're called frivolous lawsuits. Shame on us all that they can win.
I'm sorry but they're not frivolous. Suits that are considered frivilous are
not admitted in court and are thrown out. But companies (and perhaps
organizations) that make outrageous or faulty claims are fair game for
suits.
Universities have a similar status to other 501 "C" non-profit organizations
(under the tax code), but they can be sued just like businesses. Having
"non-profit" status does not automatically shield you from litigation.
I laugh when I see companies having people sign documents that basically
have the consumer agree not to sue the company. You can sign all you want.
You never waive your right to sue.
> so why not schools?
>
> Because the schools have no control whatsoever as to whether or not a grad
> gets his dream job immediately after graduation.
True enough. In all fairness to schools, nobody could have foreseen that we
would be facing the worst recession since World War II. However, neither did
many schools have an organizational plan to deal with the recession. They
devoted minimal resources to strengthening career centers/alumni
networks/following up job leads etc (while devoting maximal resources to
marketing and hyping their programs in US News and World Report/Business
Week) and now they are reaping a summer's discontent.
One area university professional I spoke with told me that he divided
students who hadn't found jobs upon graduation into "cohorts" with a
specific goal of following up until the cohort was zeroed out (i.e. all
students got jobs). That type of organizational thinking is rare in
universities but is what's needed. Incidentally, he's also looking for a
job. He isn't being fully supported by the univ administration (it seems
that short-term thinking is not limited to corporations, the administration
still thinks the job thing will go away by itself) and is frustrated.
> : Directionless slackers? You must be talking about undergrads. You
> certainly
> : don't mean the young, motivated MBA students working seven days a week
> : without being paid a dime (including sweating for professors on projects
> : seriously divorced from marketplace realities)?
>
> If he carried that work ethic with him to his career search, I suspect
he'd
> have no problem finding something.
My goodness Gmelin. You really don't read the papers do you? There are
people out there who have sent out a 1,000 resumes and still can't find
work. We're still in the worst recession since World War II. Hiring has not
picked up to come in line with past recoveries. Outsourcing and the previous
bubble "Internet" economy are the keys to the puzzle.
> : Did you hear the one about the "slacker" phd in organic chemistry? He
> can't
> : find work either (his livelihood is being outsourced). He thought that
> : studying a hard science would be his (her) ticket to a stable future.
> Turns
> : out, it isn't. Really his only crime is that he was a Grad student in
the
> : '90s instead of the late '70s.
>
> His only "crime" was thinking that there's such a thing as a "ticket" to
> *anything*.
I'm sorry but it's a fair assumption to plow time, planning, and resources
into a project and to expect a pay-off. Especially considering that there
are people out there who will gladly tell you what you want to hear and
misrepresent what they can do for you in order to grab your check.
> : But the way the education system is set up makes it almost impossible
for
> : him to return to school for one or two years and retool for industry's
> : needs.
>
> Oh? How is it set up to do that?
>
> The way is blocked by phillistine department heads and "tenured"
> : deadwood.
>
> How exactly are they "blocking" him?
They don't realize that the whole system of graduate studies is out-of-date
and needs to be re-tooled for a new millenium, industry needs, and
demographic changes.
> They laugh and guffaw as they pass out "evaluations" and say they
> : are "protected" from student "opinions."
>
> : As opposed to doing what I've suggested: tailoring the programs to be
> more
> : in line with job realities.
>
> They tailor the programs to what the students want.
Right. Like the law professor in Turow's book "One L" who tells the
students, "You're the consumer." But cruelly, there is a supply/demand
correlation here.
> Gmelin, I do so hate to see all those foreign
> : language and literature students working at Friendly's, but it sounds
> like
> : you are OK with it.
>
> What I'm okay with is that life doesn't always work out exactly the way we
> want it to. That's (how can I put this?) *life*.
Also true. But it is now happening to a whole generation of students. Is
this the best that we can offer them? How about educator's putting their
heads together (instead of in the sand) to see how they can help students
identify market opportunities, or yes, create their own if possible.
> I think that some of the ones with degrees in Arabic
> : could have put their talents to work for the US Gov't rather than for
the
> : Wendy's Corp.
>
> I'd have thought so too, but there you go.
I was fairly certain you'd agree with me on this point.
> : One of my French teachers recounted an unpleasant experience before the
> : class. One of his former students couldn't find a job and did find
> himself
> : at McDonald's. He gave the Prof a piece of his mind...in front of the
> : customers.
>
> I do hope he got fired. The former student that is . . . for berating a
> customer. No wonder he's not finding a job, with that sort of attitude.
> I'd have sacked his ass on the spot.
LOL! Who was going to fire him? He was the Manager. ;> And what could the
professor say?
> : How popular is a college degree going to be in the future when you could
> be
> : an Assistant Manager at Enterprise Rent-A-Wreck and make much more than
> your
> : friends? Maybe even more than your professors. But if that's the kind of
> : work you are going to do you should have started doing it at age 19 and
> not
> : "wasted" the time on a useless college degree. You don't need college to
> : work in such a job.
>
> Everything you say is essentially true. Let's ask Rob Allen if you need a
> fancy college degree to become highly successful.
If Rob Allen has some wisdom for today's youth, we'd love to hear it. But I
think Rob Allen (in his infinite wisdom) would look askance at a university
program that promises to charge you $50 K in exchange for $30 K salaries.
>Or Tim Martin. There
> are many different life paths one can follow.
Tim has got a very interesting background and he is (by all accounts) a math
wizard.
> : Perhaps I could interest you in a lucrative online learning "grad"
> degree?
> : You'll get "space age" distance learning and you'll pay through the nose
> for
> : the privilege. We're still working out what it will actually do for you
> : though.
>
> Those "diploma mills" aren't worth spit, but don't use that to tarnish the
> entire educational field.
No I won't and don't mean to tarnish education or all who are engaged in the
field. Education is always the way forward which is why I'm not happy to see
it demeaned and devalued the way it is.
> : People handing out grad degrees today in the US are misleading students.
>
> That may be true. Fortunately, any credible educational institution
> doesn't just "hand out" degrees.
True. But I'd like the market to find a lot more of those degrees much more
attractive than it does currently.
> Get
> : ready for the revolt.
>
> Bring it on. If change is needed, I welcome it.
I believe you do welcome this.
>But what makes you think
> a bunch of McJob slackers who can't take responsibility for their
> educational choices are going to suddenly grow a spine and "revolt"?
I don't know...maybe they'll some day found a third political party. ;>
dcr
Mike Smith
I do (I can't believe I'm agreeing with Chet). That doesn't mean that
you should listen to just *anyone* who's doing better than you, though.
--
Mike Smith
The Time Traveler
Re: Job Growth
Group: alt.music.yes Date: Tue, Apr 6, 2004, 6:54pm (PDT+3) From:
mpu...@no-email-address-necessary-no-spam-needed.com (Matt Putzel)
I disagree
Matt
****
Why waste time?
Mike Smith
> "gmelin" <gme...@earthlinkSPAM.net> wrote in message
> news:01c41b3e$6a5823a0$3df3...@host.mydomain.com...
>
>> Companies
>>: are sued under these conditions all the time
>>
>>They're called frivolous lawsuits. Shame on us all that they can win.
>
>
> I'm sorry but they're not frivolous. Suits that are considered frivilous are
> not admitted in court and are thrown out. But companies (and perhaps
> organizations) that make outrageous or faulty claims are fair game for
> suits.
And which universities have made such faulty claims? I know I wasn't
promised a job upon graduation when I enrolled.
> True enough. In all fairness to schools, nobody could have foreseen that we
> would be facing the worst recession since World War II. However, neither did
> many schools have an organizational plan to deal with the recession. They
> devoted minimal resources to strengthening career centers/alumni
> networks/following up job leads etc (while devoting maximal resources to
> marketing and hyping their programs in US News and World Report/Business
> Week) and now they are reaping a summer's discontent.
Ah, I see. People should sue universities, not because they lied, but
because they didn't do *enough* of something that they're not legally
obliged to do in the first place?
> I'm sorry but it's a fair assumption to plow time, planning, and resources
> into a project and to expect a pay-off.
Not if the time and effort are not wisely spent. Projects fail all the
time. Doing the work does not guarantee success, in and of itself. One
key is to expend the time and effort in the *right direction*.
> Also true. But it is now happening to a whole generation of students. Is
> this the best that we can offer them? How about educator's putting their
> heads together (instead of in the sand) to see how they can help students
> identify market opportunities, or yes, create their own if possible.
Yes, that would be nice. But to say that the universities should be
*sued* over this is the height of responsibility-shirking slackerdom.
>>That may be true. Fortunately, any credible educational institution
>>doesn't just "hand out" degrees.
>
> True. But I'd like the market to find a lot more of those degrees much more
> attractive than it does currently.
Hang on a sec; I think I've got "the market"'s number written down
somewhere. Perhaps you can give "the market" a call and tell it your
suggestions.
--
Mike Smith
The Time Traveler
The Time Traveler
Matt Putzel
(The Time Traveler) muttered:
>
>Re: Job Growth
>
>Group: alt.music.yes Date: Tue, Apr 6, 2004, 6:55pm (PDT+3) From:
>mpu...@no-email-address-necessary-no-spam-needed.com (Matt Putzel)
>****
>
>Where's your faith?, heathen squatter.
I have faith, I'm not a heathen squatter
M
gmelin
David Rheault <drhe...@erols.com> wrote in article
<4073569c$0$1625$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
: Power to the People! ---Lennon
We don't have time to dig trenches; we'll have to buy them ready made!
---Marx
gmelin
David Rheault <drhe...@erols.com> wrote in article
<40736c5c$0$1667$61fe...@news.rcn.com>...
: I laugh when I see companies having people sign documents that basically
: have the consumer agree not to sue the company. You can sign all you
want.
: You never waive your right to sue.
There's no right to *win*. Many such lawsuits don't have a prayer. That's
why they're frivolous.
: True enough. In all fairness to schools, nobody could have foreseen that
we
: would be facing the worst recession since World War II. However, neither
did
: many schools have an organizational plan to deal with the recession. They
: devoted minimal resources to strengthening career centers/alumni
: networks/following up job leads etc (while devoting maximal resources to
: marketing and hyping their programs in US News and World Report/Business
: Week) and now they are reaping a summer's discontent.
All of those things are avialable -- to students willing to take
responsibility and put in the effort to make use of them.
: One area university professional I spoke with told me that he divided
: students who hadn't found jobs upon graduation into "cohorts" with a
: specific goal of following up until the cohort was zeroed out (i.e. all
: students got jobs).
That's basically a kind of "networking," something the students should be
doing for themselves.
: > If he carried that work ethic with him to his career search, I suspect
: he'd
: > have no problem finding something.
:
: My goodness Gmelin. You really don't read the papers do you? There are
: people out there who have sent out a 1,000 resumes and still can't find
: work. We're still in the worst recession since World War II. Hiring has
not
: picked up to come in line with past recoveries. Outsourcing and the
previous
: bubble "Internet" economy are the keys to the puzzle.
So? That doesn't mean *nobody* is finding work. There are jobs, and they
are going to the people willing to work hard for them, instead of expecting
things to be handed to them and blaming the school when that's not the
case.
: I'm sorry but it's a fair assumption to plow time, planning, and
resources
: into a project and to expect a pay-off.
Nonsense. Your expectations need to be reasonable and realistic. Somebody
who puts five years of money and effort into a degree in art history needs
to understand that there's just not a lot of career opportunities in that
direction. But if he wants to do it, that's *his* choice. By the way, my
sister changed from a career in accounting to complete her BFA, and is now
working part time at a gallery while working on her own projects. And she
couldn't be happier.
: > The way is blocked by phillistine department heads and "tenured"
: > : deadwood.
: >
: > How exactly are they "blocking" him?
:
: They don't realize that the whole system of graduate studies is
out-of-date
: and needs to be re-tooled for a new millenium, industry needs, and
: demographic changes.
How exactly are they *blocking* him?
: > What I'm okay with is that life doesn't always work out exactly the way
we
: > want it to. That's (how can I put this?) *life*.
:
: Also true. But it is now happening to a whole generation of students.
Yeah, times are tough. And yet, things are a hell of a lot better for most
people than they were just a few hundred years ago.
Is
: this the best that we can offer them?
Life? Yes, it is. What the hell else are you expecting?
How about educator's putting their
: heads together (instead of in the sand) to see how they can help students
: identify market opportunities, or yes, create their own if possible.
They do all that. It's still up to the *students* to do something with it.
: > I think that some of the ones with degrees in Arabic
: > : could have put their talents to work for the US Gov't rather than for
: the
: > : Wendy's Corp.
: >
: > I'd have thought so too, but there you go.
:
: I was fairly certain you'd agree with me on this point.
I didn't know you were trying to make a point.
: > : One of my French teachers recounted an unpleasant experience before
the
: > : class. One of his former students couldn't find a job and did find
: > himself
: > : at McDonald's. He gave the Prof a piece of his mind...in front of the
: > : customers.
: >
: > I do hope he got fired. The former student that is . . . for berating
a
: > customer. No wonder he's not finding a job, with that sort of
attitude.
: > I'd have sacked his ass on the spot.
:
: LOL! Who was going to fire him? He was the Manager.
The district manager, or the franchise coordinator, or whoever he was
answerable to.
;> And what could the
: professor say?
"Hello, McDonald's corporate office? I'd like to tell you how I was
treated by the manager at one of your stores . . ."
: > Those "diploma mills" aren't worth spit, but don't use that to tarnish
the
: > entire educational field.
:
: No I won't and don't mean to tarnish education or all who are engaged in
the
: field. Education is always the way forward which is why I'm not happy to
see
: it demeaned and devalued the way it is.
So stop demeaning and devaluing it.
: > : People handing out grad degrees today in the US are misleading
students.
: >
: > That may be true. Fortunately, any credible educational institution
: > doesn't just "hand out" degrees.
:
: True. But I'd like the market to find a lot more of those degrees much
more
: attractive than it does currently.
And I'd like people to value education more and support funding for the
schools and hold educators up to respect and pay them what their effort and
training are worth. And I'd like a pony. Oh well.
--
gmelin
Restlessness and discontent are the first necessities of progress.
-- Thomas Edison
gmelin
Mike Smith <mike_UNDER...@acm.DOT.org> wrote in article
<10771bn...@news.supernews.com>...
: > True. But I'd like the market to find a lot more of those degrees much
more
: > attractive than it does currently.
:
: Hang on a sec; I think I've got "the market"'s number written down
: somewhere.
Well I should hope so, since I believe you are one of the people who think
we should let all economic issues be determined by "The Market."
Mike Smith
> Mike Smith <mike_UNDER...@acm.DOT.org> wrote in article
> <10771bn...@news.supernews.com>...
> : > True. But I'd like the market to find a lot more of those degrees much
> more
> : > attractive than it does currently.
> :
> : Hang on a sec; I think I've got "the market"'s number written down
> : somewhere.
>
> Well I should hope so, since I believe you are one of the people who think
> we should let all economic issues be determined by "The Market."
I'm not sure what you're driving at. Rheault seems to think that "the
market" is a person, a single entity that he can tell what to do. It
isn't, of course; it is a distributed composite of the needs, abilities,
hopes and dreams of each and every person who participates in it.
--
Mike Smith
The Time Traveler
Re: Job Growth
Group: alt.music.yes Date: Wed, Apr 7, 2004, 7:26am (PDT+3) From:
mpu...@no-email-address-necessary-no-spam-needed.com (Matt Putzel)
On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 21:33:03 -0700 (PDT), TheTime...@webtv.net (The
Time Traveler) muttered:
Re: Job Growth
Group: alt.music.yes Date: Tue, Apr 6, 2004, 6:55pm (PDT+3) From:
mpu...@no-email-address-necessary-no-spam-needed.com (Matt Putzel) On
Tue, 6 Apr 2004 14:40:18 -0700 (PDT), TheTime...@webtv.net (The
Time Traveler) wrote:
Why can't you create your own job? Didn't Jon give you
enough faith in yourself? You did listen to the song lyrics didn't you?
No, I just read the FAQ and I have to say you are way off base here!
****
Where's your faith?, heathen squatter.
I have faith, I'm not a heathen squatter
M
OK then, faithful a.m.y. squatter.
Steven Sullivan
RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.
--
-S.
"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director
Yessphere
> Why can't you create your own job? Didn't Jon give you enough faith
> in yourself? You did listen to the song lyrics didn't you?
Chet,
All I have is this here guitar (with a broken string) and a little bit
of sidewalk to stand on...
dcr
Yessphere
Remember us all Matt many years from now when you are the all-powerful
Chief and CEO of the Putzel Corporation. Remember those who doubted
you, and those who did not.
dcr
Matt Putzel
To the best of my knowledge, there is already a Putzel corporation, or
at least a Putzel Electrical Contractors in Macon, GA. No relation.
Matt
Mike Smith
>
> Such as: someone like Jon Anderson?
I'm sure that, once upon a time, Jon did much better financially than I.
I'm not sure that's true anymore, though.
--
Mike Smith
The Time Traveler
Re: Job Growth
Group: alt.music.yes Date: Wed, Apr 7, 2004, 11:56am From:
drhe...@erols.com (Yessphere)
Now wear some clothes that attract attention....and you're an instant
businessman. A smile is essential. Play whatever you like the best you
can, broken string or not, and you'll attract cash donations no doubt.
...a colorful piece of chalk for some amusing sidewalk art couldn't
hurt either ( for example: draw footsteps that lead to you)
By the end of the day you'll have $100 !
Matt Putzel
Traveler) muttered:
>
I disagree, he'll have $101. Not only that, he should draw footprints
behind him, so he could leave good foot prints behind.
M
The Time Traveler
Re: Job Growth
Group: alt.music.yes Date: Wed, Apr 7, 2004, 11:54pm (PDT+3) From:
mpu...@no-email-address-necessary-no-spam-needed.com (Matt Putzel)
Group: alt.music.yes Date: Wed, Apr 7, 2004, 11:56am From:
drhe...@erols.com (Yessphere)
news:<888-4073...@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net>
.. Why can't you create your own job? Didn't Jon give you enough faith
in yourself? You did listen to the song lyrics didn't you?
Chet,
All I have is this here guitar (with a broken string) and a little bit
of sidewalk to stand on...
dcr
****
Now wear some clothes that attract attention....and you're
an instant businessman. A smile is essential. Play whatever you like the
best you can, broken string or not, and you'll attract cash donations no
doubt. ...a colorful piece of chalk for some amusing sidewalk art
couldn't hurt either ( for example: draw footsteps that lead to you)
By the end of the day you'll have $100 !
I disagree, he'll have $101. Not only that, he should draw footprints
behind him, so he could leave good foot prints behind.
M
****
You're right! That's what Jon sings: "leave good foot prints behind"!
ShorThing7
> I'm not sure that's true anymore, though.
I dont know of your finances but im sure that Jon is back on firm footing.
Janie has the checkbook in a lockbox and he has been very busy in the past 7
years with touring plus royalties from back sales. I think most of his career
he was making such good money that "money was not an issue" thus he never
restrained, just spent. Also think his former wife did *not* have any restraint
of her / their spending.
Chuck
Yessphere
> : people out there who have sent out a 1,000 resumes and still can't find
> : work. We're still in the worst recession since World War II. Hiring has
> not
> : picked up to come in line with past recoveries. Outsourcing and the
> previous
> : bubble "Internet" economy are the keys to the puzzle.
>
> So? That doesn't mean *nobody* is finding work. There are jobs, and they
> are going to the people willing to work hard for them, instead of expecting
> things to be handed to them and blaming the school when that's not the
> case.
We're in the worst employment recession since World War II. Sure there
are some jobs. I've listed them recently: mortician is a definite
career oppty. You can even cite Evelyn Waugh if you are alone, at
night, and working on a stiff.
> : I'm sorry but it's a fair assumption to plow time, planning, and
> resources
> : into a project and to expect a pay-off.
>
> Nonsense. Your expectations need to be reasonable and realistic. Somebody
> who puts five years of money and effort into a degree in art history needs
> to understand that there's just not a lot of career opportunities in that
> direction. But if he wants to do it, that's *his* choice.
Gmelin. I bet combining art history with mortuary science is bound to
produce a well-paying career path. ;> Actually, I'm not joking at
all. I know someone who is studying egyptology but pursuing a path in
"forensic egyptology."
Careers in art history have always been scarce. But the difference
right now is that all kinds of fields aren't creating jobs, even ones
that traditionally should be creating jobs. Outsourcing many of these
jobs, sending away Mfg jobs, and importing huge numbers of
guestworkers are the reasons why.
Now for the admin's next trick: bringing in Punjabi PHDs to teach
Shakespeare at a fraction of your typical California State educator's
cost. I bet you wouldn't like that at all.
>By the way, my
> sister changed from a career in accounting to complete her BFA, and is now
> working part time at a gallery while working on her own projects. And she
> couldn't be happier.
Many career decisions do indeed have such silver linings. I do hope
she is content with the income level she is currently generating.
> : > The way is blocked by phillistine department heads and "tenured"
> : > : deadwood.
> : >
> : > How exactly are they "blocking" him?
> :
> : They don't realize that the whole system of graduate studies is
> out-of-date
> : and needs to be re-tooled for a new millenium, industry needs, and
> : demographic changes.
>
> How exactly are they *blocking* him?
They could create parallel degrees that could be awarded quickly (not
in 5 to 7 years, and not only to "candidates over 30")by taking into
account the candidate's background (say he/she already has a first
PHD), retooled to industry needs, and have him/her back out and
productive. But they aren't willing to consider these options because
they have a monopoly on the P.H.D. process (PHD = Poor,Hungry,Dirty)
and think it threatens the special system they have constructed for
themselves.
It's also sad to see the education inflation in some major markets.
PHDs in English doing jobs that barely required a college degree a
decade ago. Earth to Gmelin: you don't need a phd to write press
releases all day long.
> : > What I'm okay with is that life doesn't always work out exactly the way
> we
> : > want it to. That's (how can I put this?) *life*.
> :
> : Also true. But it is now happening to a whole generation of students.
>
> Yeah, times are tough. And yet, things are a hell of a lot better for most
> people than they were just a few hundred years ago.
At least you are admitting that "times are tough." So do take that
into account the next time you criticize one of your bright, ambitious
students for "being a slacker" when he just can't find a job no matter
what he does.
And yes, Gmelin. We have made many modern advances in medicine.
Irrelevent to the discussion unless you are a medical doctor.
> :
> : LOL! Who was going to fire him? He was the Manager.
>
> The district manager, or the franchise coordinator, or whoever he was
> answerable to.
If I were the franchise owner who would I listen to: a valuable
regional employee willing to put in 60 hour weeks or some slack-assed
professor who hardly ever eats in my restaurants anyway? ;>
> ;> And what could the
> : professor say?
>
> "Hello, McDonald's corporate office? I'd like to tell you how I was
> treated by the manager at one of your stores . . ."
Two can play at that game. Perhaps the manager will FAX the university
president and CC all the people on the university board? Heading: Why
I Am Forced to Work at McDonalds. He could also CC major university
donors.
And the professor won't get him fired either. He'll be treated as the
dissatisfied customer he was.
And of course, the manager won't be able to fire the professor if he
has the "T Word." Not even Jesus Christ can fire a tenured professor.
They walk on water and then some.
> And I'd like people to value education more and support funding for the
> schools and hold educators up to respect and pay them what their effort and
> training are worth.
I saw a survey recently for a local Maryland college. This survey
sought opinions from Alumni as to why they did not give to their alma
mater. Recent years are very telling and purely practical: most former
students cited "financial reasons" as the main reason for not giving.
And for the last three years, alumni giving has dropped to
precipitously low levels.
>And I'd like a pony. Oh well.
And I dig a pygmy. With the Deaf aids and all that...
dcr
Mike Smith
>
> Now for the admin's next trick: bringing in Punjabi PHDs to teach
> Shakespeare at a fraction of your typical California State educator's
> cost. I bet you wouldn't like that at all.
The key to outsourcing is the low cost of living in the other country.
If your Punjabi PhD is going to be living in CA, he's going to have to
receive enough salary to cope with CA's cost of living. It just doesn't
work.
> They could create parallel degrees that could be awarded quickly (not
> in 5 to 7 years, and not only to "candidates over 30")by taking into
> account the candidate's background (say he/she already has a first
> PHD), retooled to industry needs, and have him/her back out and
> productive.
We already have "career training institutes" or "business skills
schools" (e.g. ITT Tech, DeVry, Chubb, etc.) for that. That's not what
universities are for.
> And yes, Gmelin. We have made many modern advances in medicine.
> Irrelevent to the discussion unless you are a medical doctor.
Or a patient.
> Two can play at that game. Perhaps the manager will FAX the university
> president and CC all the people on the university board? Heading: Why
> I Am Forced to Work at McDonalds. He could also CC major university
> donors.
How is that the professor's fault, personally? Meanwhile, the Mickey
D's manager *is* personally responsible for his abusive, out-of-line
behavior.
--
Mike Smith
David Rheault
"Mike Smith" <mike_UNDER...@acm.DOT.org> wrote in message
news:40776CC7...@acm.DOT.org...
> Yessphere wrote:
> >
> > Now for the admin's next trick: bringing in Punjabi PHDs to teach
> > Shakespeare at a fraction of your typical California State educator's
> > cost. I bet you wouldn't like that at all.
>
> The key to outsourcing is the low cost of living in the other country.
> If your Punjabi PhD is going to be living in CA, he's going to have to
> receive enough salary to cope with CA's cost of living. It just doesn't
> work.
Enough of a salary but perhaps lower than for his American counterpart. And
many foreign guestworkers in the US today are victims of horrible and
increasing exploitation. Of course, most of them are at the lower end of the
wage and skill scales.
But yes, I agree that the trend is to directly outsource the job to a lower
cost jurisdiction.
> > They could create parallel degrees that could be awarded quickly (not
> > in 5 to 7 years, and not only to "candidates over 30")by taking into
> > account the candidate's background (say he/she already has a first
> > PHD), retooled to industry needs, and have him/her back out and
> > productive.
>
> We already have "career training institutes" or "business skills
> schools" (e.g. ITT Tech, DeVry, Chubb, etc.) for that. That's not what
> universities are for.
And that's why a lot of university programs are being marginalized and seen
as irrelevent to industry needs.
> > Two can play at that game. Perhaps the manager will FAX the university
> > president and CC all the people on the university board? Heading: Why
> > I Am Forced to Work at McDonalds. He could also CC major university
> > donors.
>
> How is that the professor's fault, personally?
I don't know. I think the professor must have felt that he needed to take
some of the blame. That the student had high hopes for something else and
ended up at McDonald's. Did the professor feel that he should have done more
for that particular student?
>Meanwhile, the Mickey
> D's manager *is* personally responsible for his abusive, out-of-line
> behavior.
Yes he is. But I guess the professor was trying to empathize with some of
his former student's pain while simultaneously being yelled at. ;> The
yelling was probably a catharsis for the student as he directed his anger at
the shards of his broken dreams as personified by the professor.
dcr
Mike Smith
> "Mike Smith" <mike_UNDER...@acm.DOT.org> wrote in message
> news:40776CC7...@acm.DOT.org...
>
>>Yessphere wrote:
>
>>>They could create parallel degrees that could be awarded quickly (not
>>>in 5 to 7 years, and not only to "candidates over 30")by taking into
>>>account the candidate's background (say he/she already has a first
>>>PHD), retooled to industry needs, and have him/her back out and
>>>productive.
>>
>>We already have "career training institutes" or "business skills
>>schools" (e.g. ITT Tech, DeVry, Chubb, etc.) for that. That's not what
>>universities are for.
>
>
> And that's why a lot of university programs are being marginalized and seen
> as irrelevent to industry needs.
Again, the assumption is that the point of universities, and of a
university education, is to meet "industry needs". This is not the
case. If you want to learn a trade, you go to a trade school. If you
want a university education, you go to a university. The purpose of a
university education is not necessarily to "get a good paying job". You
don't get a PhD in electrophysics if you're planning on becoming an
electrician.
--
Mike Smith
Yessphere
> university education, is to meet "industry needs". This is not the
> case. If you want to learn a trade, you go to a trade school. If you
> want a university education, you go to a university.
I'd say go to a university only if a university education is valid
(perhaps for certain teaching requirements). Many university degrees
are not leading to meaningful careers. I don't think people get PHDs
just so they can line up on the dole. Universities don't exist in a
vacuum--they are part of the society out of which they issue.
Education at that level is either relevent or useless.
>The purpose of a
> university education is not necessarily to "get a good paying job". You
> don't get a PhD in electrophysics if you're planning on becoming an
> electrician.
If a university education is not relevent to the marketplace it will
become marginalized (as much of those degrees are now becoming). I
think this is a huge waste of human talent and we need to develop a
better plan than just cranking out degreed bodies. Schools should
either award less degrees or make the ones they do reward relevent.
It's simple supply and demand issue is it not?
In some cases, retooling (esp. in the scientific and technical
disciplines) will allow some PHDs to find market-based opptys. But
only if the universities are geared to making that happen, which they
are mostly not.
dcr
Jamie
> Mike Smith <mike_UNDER...@acm.DOT.org> wrote in message news:<107k0hq...@news.supernews.com>...
> > David Rheault wrote:
> >
> > > "Mike Smith" <mike_UNDER...@acm.DOT.org> wrote in message
> > Again, the assumption is that the point of universities, and of a
> > university education, is to meet "industry needs". This is not the
> > case. If you want to learn a trade, you go to a trade school. If you
> > want a university education, you go to a university.
>
> I'd say go to a university only if a university education is valid
> (perhaps for certain teaching requirements). Many university degrees
> are not leading to meaningful careers. I don't think people get PHDs
> just so they can line up on the dole. Universities don't exist in a
> vacuum--they are part of the society out of which they issue.
> Education at that level is either relevent or useless.
Yeah, I went to one and got a useless degree. I went back to try
medical assiting, but never finished that. It's been three years now
since i last went to that. But does anyone realy do aything with
every kind of degree?
Somome form high school remarked when I mentioned going to school for
the medical assiting, "I thohgt you already graduated (from a
univeristy)." "But I din;t do anything with it." She--who's just a
kindergarten teacher!--thinks that was a awaste. I just could not say
anything in defense of that. And you don't "already" graduate, you
just "graduate."
Jamie "not good for anything" Ghione
ShorThing7
:-(
Chuck
"Thinks Jamies good for many things" :-)
Yessphere
Well, in this economy we are forced to re-evaluate our assumptions
every day. What you need is to adopt a completely new strategy. You've
got your Spanish language background (I think that's fabulous but you
could have learned Spanish a lot cheaper at Berlitz than in a
university) which combined with some aspect of healthcare could be
invaluable if you know where to apply yourself.
Some of the current "buzz" around healthcare is oversold but the
future looks set to provide significant opptys in this field. All
those aging white people will be cared for by HUGE numbers of
guestworkers--many of them hispanic. You'll have an advantage as
someone who can liaise with both sides of the spectrum.
> Jamie "not good for anything" Ghione
Everyone has something to contribute, it's just that the path is not
always clear. You are on the right path (healthcare plus your Spanish)
but you are too dejected and demoralized to pursue your vision
further. I recommend finding a career councilor that you can trust and
who can empathize with you but also help you explore options that will
become blueprints for action on your part. You've got things to say,
you just need someone to listen to you and help you develop some light
at the end of the tunnel. It's not as expensive as it sounds.
The jobs situation has been absolutely dismal--the worst our
generation has ever seen. But the good news is that after the dust
settles (in another 3-4 years) job creation should begin again in
earnest.
dcr
Teakbois
Jamie,
You seem to have a really bad outlook on life. Like Chuck said, I'm
sure you are good at many things. Noone I know can make Yes
connections with cake like you! Not only that, you have a real talent
for finding obscure Yes records at Salvation Army. I'm sure you could
do anything you want if you apply yourself.
Matt
The Time Traveler
because more and more people are making a living from the internet.
They're mail carriers. Self-employed. New-Frontier People. Heads of
their Time. Time Travelers. Making Time. Time is Money. Make Time
Now.
Teakbois
Time Traveler) muttered:
I disagree. Lines can be slower for any reason. In my area the lines
are longer simply because they have one person waiting on customer
when before they had three.
Matt
Mike Smith
I can't remember the last time I was in a post office...
--
Mike Smith
ShorThing7
>You seem to have a really bad outlook on life. Like Chuck said, I'm
>sure you are good at many things. Noone I know can make Yes
>connections with cake like you! Not only that, you have a real talent
>for finding obscure Yes records at Salvation Army. I'm sure you could
>do anything you want if you apply yourself.
>
>Matt
Well said Matt. "Wo Wo Wo Jamie's cryin". We all get despondent. I think its
hard to be a Yes/JA fan without knowing the resorvoir and depth of the human
spirit and the power therein. I hope you tap into that strength Jamie - you
have many resources.
Chuck
How did we become masters of limitation?
The Time Traveler
Re: Job Growth
Group: alt.music.yes Date: Tue, Apr 13, 2004, 6:27pm (PDT+3) From:
Bobby...@teakbois.com (Teakbois)
****
You're not sure of anything. You put Jamie down all the time. It's
your fault.
Yessphere
Chet,
You Hippies were pioneers. You went out and founded Communes. You
didn't care what society thought. You always planned to be
self-sufficient. Not everyone out there is as courageous or defiant
though.
Maybe you are working now so your kids can hang out in India for
awhile? I guess "enlightenment" is like fruit on a tree--there for the
taking if you know how to harvest...
dcr
Teakbois
Time Traveler) muttered:
>
I disagree. You see, I'm just a drone, I follow the instructions in
the FAQ. I have no free will.
You used to be a good natured happy Yesfan. Your transformation into
bitter old man is complete. Have a good day
Matt
The Time Traveler
Re: Job Growth
Group: alt.music.yes Date: Wed, Apr 14, 2004, 7:13pm (PDT+3) From:
Used to be til you stalked me. It's your fault. You and Bush.
The Time Traveler
Re: Job Growth
Group: alt.music.yes Date: Wed, Apr 14, 2004, 1:32pm From:
drhe...@erols.com (Yessphere)
On a hot day the guy selling lemonade at the fleamarket goes home
with $200+. Try iced tea! ....YES tea. I want some ice cold YES tea.
..ascend, and create! The new guy at the fleamarket, selling the
drinks, will make more money than the other guys...just because he's
wearing a top hat!!
Yessphere
> Re: Job Growth
>
> Group: alt.music.yes Date: Wed, Apr 14, 2004, 1:32pm From:
> drhe...@erols.com (Yessphere)
> TheTime...@webtv.net (The Time Traveler) wrote in message
> news:<22836-407...@storefull-3316.bay.webtv.net>...
> Have you noticed the line at the post office is longer nowadays? It's
> because more and more people are making a living from the internet.
> They're mail carriers. Self-employed. New-Frontier People. Heads of
> their Time. Time Travelers. Making Time. Time is Money. Make Time Now.
> Chet,
> You Hippies were pioneers. You went out and founded Communes. You didn't
> care what society thought. You always planned to be self-sufficient. Not
> everyone out there is as courageous or defiant though.
> Maybe you are working now so your kids can hang out in India for awhile?
> I guess "enlightenment" is like fruit on a tree--there for the taking
> if you know how to harvest...
> dcr
> *****
>
> On a hot day the guy selling lemonade at the fleamarket goes home
> with $200+.
Yeah, these ideas can work. Do the town officials hassle him and make
him buy a permit or do they leave him alone and let him serve?
>Try iced tea! ....YES tea. I want some ice cold YES tea.
> ..ascend, and create! The new guy at the fleamarket, selling the
> drinks, will make more money than the other guys...just because he's
> wearing a top hat!!
I've got a few farmers' market ideas but I'm still working out the
recipe on one thing. I want to see if it's practical to make in
batches.
There's a guy out here who sells MEAT at a farmer's market. The
Vegetarian Police showed up and tried to hassle him. His meat is 100%
organic but that wasn't good enough for the militants. They tried to
break his resolve and get him evicted but he stood firm and they
failed.
dcr
The Time Traveler
Re: Job Growth
Group: alt.music.yes Date: Fri, Apr 16, 2004, 2:06pm From:
The big cities are covered with politicians....and it's their job to
hassle people.....like lemonade sellers, I suppose. You need to be in
an area that tolerates your lemonade I guess. ...or your recipe.
There's one way to find out: do it.
Permits:
I once knew a guy who went to city hall to pay for his 1st business
permit. He gave them a check, he got the permit. ....And as he was
leaving he said to them "don't deposit the check for a couple of days
because it will bounce."
Jamie
> On 13 Apr 2004 11:55:18 GMT, short...@aol.com (ShorThing7) muttered:
>
> >>Jamie "not good for anything" Ghione
>
> >:-(
> >
> >Chuck
> >"Thinks Jamies good for many things" :-)
>
> Jamie,
> You seem to have a really bad outlook on life. Like Chuck said, I'm
> sure you are good at many things.
teacher. That is so lame.
Noone I know can make Yes
> connections with cake like you! Not only that, you have a real talent
> for finding obscure Yes records at Salvation Army.
FYI, I haven't seen any recently. And they weren't obscure--they are
very famaliar ones, unless you tink "Three Ships" is obscure.
I'm sure you could
> do anything you want if you apply yourself.
>I' just think I'm not right for a lot of stuff.
> Matt
Jamie "good at useless stuff" Ghione
Jamie
I only seem to go to one when I'm out of stamps or if I'm maling
something that needs (or maight need) morre than a standard 37-cent
stamp. Otherwise, I just give my mail to the mail carrier as he or
she comes to my house. I try to watch them come so I won't miss them
when I nedd to mail something.
Jamie "it's easy that way" Ghione
Teakbois
>Teakbois <Bobby...@teakbois.com> wrote in message news:<s6qo70dg2b5137eeu...@4ax.com>...
>FYI, I haven't seen any recently. And they weren't obscure--they are
>very famaliar ones, unless you tink "Three Ships" is obscure.
>
Maybe not obscure to Yes fans, ....but 3 Ships is pretty obscure to
even Yes fans I would say.
Matt