what is the meaning of 'I still haven't found what I'm looking for?'
L & M
For years I have always wondered what the meaning is, of 'I still haven't
found what I'm looking for?'.
Is Bono saying that even though he believes in God, it's still not what he's
looking for? Or is he saying that in society, he hasn't found the real
Jesus?
Or is it something else?
Please help, I've been trying to figure this out for years
Thank you everyone!
Moose
Yurk Yurk
for me it means that as a Christian who has been created for the purpose of
living in eternity with God, here on Earth I can never be satisfied with
earthly things. This verse in Ecclesiastes -- "He has also set eternity in
the hearts of men." -- always reminds me of this song. I won't find what I'm
looking for until I meet my Maker.
Just my opinion and what it means for me. You're welcome to an entirely
different interpretation, possibly about looking for the last piece of
cheesecake in the fridge when you don't know that someone else has already
taken it...
-YY
"L & M" <martin...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
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Chuck Ungar
L & M <martin...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
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Stephan
that´s what´s called love: the wanting of finding out every day more of God.
Think of the bible: 1 Cor 13: Now we know in parts, but then...
"L & M" <martin...@bigpond.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
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gala...@erols.com
to see religion in it, then it's there for you to find. But, as with a lot of
Bono's lyrics, they seem to encompass a much wider area than they seem to at
first. I think the eternal spiritual quest is obvious in the lyrics. People go
to church every week to try and get closer to god, people go to synagogues and
mosques to do the same thing. Whirling dervishes in Turkey spin to reach
spiritual ecstasy, Qawwali singers in Pakistan sing to do the same thing;
Buddhists meditate regularly. None of them ever feels like he/she has attained
the ultimate or there would no longer be a point in attending religious services
or clearing your mind for that sort of thinking and feeling.
But what about other areas of our lives? How many of you are driven to create
things, like paintings, music, stories? We do it because we like to do it. But
why do we keep doing it day in and day out? Why do we keep trying to do things
differently, to push ourselves further and further? In my opinion, it's the
same drive as the religious one. If you think about it, most of us have a drive
to keep on living, to better ourselves, to accomplish things. I don't think
settling for the status quo would make any of us terribly happy for long. I
read somewhere that stopping our personal searches for fulfillment,
enlightenment, or expansion is really a death wish. I mean, once you have what
you're looking for, everything you're looking for, why live? Anyway, I see the
religious meaning in the song and I think I understand it, but I also see a
really nice hymn to the nature of human life itself.
m.p
----------
In article <3AB93687...@erols.com>,
gala...@erols.com wrote:
interesting point. death as resignation vs. life as
expansion and continual discovery of self and others.
I mean,
> once you have what
> you're looking for, everything you're looking for, why live?
maybe this is when the path of contentment can be
engaged upon. There is the spirituality of yearning
which looks ardently for the divine to manifest and be
related to (" when the Kingdom Come then all the colors
will bleed into one"), and then there is the
spirituality of contentment, where one becomes aware of
touching the divine in the here and now, whatever the
external conditions may be. Contentment may be the
most difficult path to follow, at least for many of us.
it goes contrary to the western culture. Yet it may
possibly lead us deeper and closer to the divinity; for
the Breath (another one of G-d's names), that Breath
which does unite the physical life to its "higher"
ethereal self (see Genesis 2: 7 if you feel friendly to
the Scriptures), she moves mysteriously with far more
ease when mind and heart become aware of, AND also
accept what *is*, when one finds ways to rejoice in the
gift of life, even when things get to feel difficult.
It could therefore be said that contentment is a close
sister to Grace "who finds beauty in everything."
gala...@erols.com
stage do they? Plus, I'm not really sure how we should go about
defining content in this case. Could you give me some examples? People
I have met who have claimed to be content would tell you that they have
everything they need in life, that they've found everything they're
looking for, as it were. But they will also tell you that they aren't
afraid of dying. They will embrace death, even if it were to come in
the next second, because they believe that the soul will be engaged in
something much more profound from then on--a discourse with whatever
divine being they happened to believe in while alive. In that sense,
contentment is again closely related to death, but of course it all
depends again on how content is defined.
To relate this more closely to U2, Bono has claimed he is very happy
with his life. He has also claimed in at least one song that he isn't
afraid to die. I believe this, but I don't know how to reconcile it
with his obvious desire to keep creating or his deep involvement with
Jubilee 2000. He's still trying to make the world a better place (even
more than before) and he's still driven to create. Maybe I'm wrong, and
the creative process or ambition or muscular social consciousness aren't
as powerful in humans as I think. Any thoughts from anyone would be
appreciated as these are ideas I'm only now just playing with.
I think it would be interesting to try and compare "I Still Haven't
Found What I'm Looking For" and "Wake Up Dead Man." I used to believe
WUDM was about Jesus, but I recently read that Bono recommended
Dostoyevsky's "The Brothers Karamazov" to a fan as an essential book.
The book is about the death of God. Has there been a shift in his
belief system? Any ideas, because I don't know how to answer this.
> it goes contrary to the western culture. Yet it may
> possibly lead us deeper and closer to the divinity; for
> the Breath (another one of G-d's names), that Breath
> which does unite the physical life to its "higher"
> ethereal self (see Genesis 2: 7 if you feel friendly to
> the Scriptures)
I am an ancient historian, and my particular area of interest is ancient
religions, but my relationship with the Bible (Old and New Testaments)
is an academic one rather than a wholly believing one (though Jesus as a
revolutionary intrigues me very much). So I will, of course, look up
any reference you give me, though please understand that I do approach
these things in a slightly different manner than a lot of people. Your
point is a valid one, if I understand you correctly, about the unity
between human flesh and earthly life and the divine and spiritual
realms. That idea seems to cut across most of the worlds religions in
fact, although it seems most pronounced in the Gnostic Christians
(considered heretical by many) and Kabbalists.
> It could therefore be said that contentment is a close
> sister to Grace "who finds beauty in everything."
Nice point.
OSU Buckeyes
where he's worshipped as a god, except for maybe this newsgroup.
Stephan
<gala...@erols.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3ABA0898...@erols.com...
> I understand your point about contentment, but very few ever reach that
> stage do they? Plus, I'm not really sure how we should go about
> defining content in this case. Could you give me some examples? People
> I have met who have claimed to be content would tell you that they have
> everything they need in life, that they've found everything they're
> looking for, as it were. But they will also tell you that they aren't
> afraid of dying.
Sadly, I think it´s no contradiction, as it sounds as you are talking of
people who only belief in material things and don´t belief in God anyway.
> They will embrace death, even if it were to come in
> the next second, because they believe that the soul will be engaged in
> something much more profound from then on--a discourse with whatever
> divine being they happened to believe in while alive. In that sense,
> contentment is again closely related to death, but of course it all
> depends again on how content is defined.
>
> To relate this more closely to U2, Bono has claimed he is very happy
> with his life. He has also claimed in at least one song that he isn't
> afraid to die. I believe this, but I don't know how to reconcile it
> with his obvious desire to keep creating or his deep involvement with
> Jubilee 2000. He's still trying to make the world a better place (even
> more than before) and he's still driven to create.
Maybe I got you wrong here, as I´m no native speaker, but being creative and
not being afraid to die is for me no contradiction - in fact, for me it fits
very good together. As I began writing this words, this line from BD came to
my mind: "(Looking for) Someone you can lend a hand, in the search (?) for
grace" (Sorry if I quoted wrong, can´t find the booklet at the moment).
Stephan
what he was looking for".
<gala...@erols.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3ABA0898...@erols.com...
Kev
news:hthull-ya0235800...@news.iwaynet.net...
> It means they still don't have enough money and Bono hasn't found a place
> where he's worshipped as a god, except for maybe this newsgroup.
I suppose everybody has their own interpretation!! You've studied that song
for far too long!!
gala...@erols.com
> Sadly, I think it´s no contradiction, as it sounds as you are talking of
> people who only belief in material things and don´t belief in God anyway.
A contradiction between what? I'm not sure I understand your idea. My original
point was that contentment, while it may be the best sort of life here on earth,
is still linked in many minds with death. I wanted to raise the idea that true
contentment is death. I said:
> > They will embrace death, even if it were to come in
> > the next second, because they believe that the soul will be engaged in
> > something much more profound from then on--a discourse with whatever
> > divine being they happened to believe in while alive. In that sense,
> > contentment is again closely related to death, but of course it all
> > depends again on how content is defined.
Anyway, more on point, in terms of our discussion of "I Still Haven't Found What
I'm Looking For," I was trying to express the idea that the song could relate
not only to a religious search or a quest for divine understanding. I'm
certainly not dismissing the religious aspect of the lyrics; I hear it everytime
I listen to the song, as do many others. But my point was that many of us are
driven to write books or paint or write songs or clean woods or teach children,
and we are driven to do these things with every part of our being, with our
souls if you like. The search for fulfillment doesn't have to be a strictly
religious one. Spirituality (as opposed to religiosity) can be found
everywhere. An atheist can reach the core of his being by helping the homeless,
for example. So, maybe the singer hasn't found the perfect song, maybe he's
looking for the perfect note, maybe he's trying to express his feelings
perfectly in song but hasn't been able to do it yet. That's what I like best
about the song. A 17 year old non religious girl who doesn't know what she
wants to do in life can sing it in the car and it can have a whole different
meaning than, say, a 38 year old man who is deeply religious. I wanted to
acknowledge that different side of the song.
> Maybe I got you wrong here, as I´m no native speaker, but being creative and
> not being afraid to die is for me no contradiction - in fact, for me it fits
> very good together. As I began writing this words, this line from BD came to
> my mind: "(Looking for) Someone you can lend a hand, in the search (?) for
> grace" (Sorry if I quoted wrong, can´t find the booklet at the moment).
I think I understand your point here, but I'm not sure how to answer it since
I'm still not quite sure what my idea is. : ) The lyric is "You thought you'd
found a friend to take you out of this place. Someone you could lend a hand in
return for grace." When I listen to "Beautiful Day" against "I Still Haven't
Found What I'm Looking For" I can hear a big shift in ideas. ISHFWILF looks
forward while BD is focused on the present -- a content person is talking to
someone who's still looking. But, again, I'm not sure how to reconcile this
with the overwhelming drive to make the world a better place. If I am content
personally but not politically, am I really content? I suspect that I am, in
which case my ideas fly out the window, which is fine by me. I don't know...
Any philosophers out there?
m.p
Stephan wrote:
>> Maybe I got you wrong here, as I´m no native speaker, but
> being creative and
>> not being afraid to die is for me no contradiction - in fact,
> for me it fits
>> very good together.
i agree. When one is not afraid to die -or live-, the
creative juices are free to flow and explore more venues
than when one is caught in the fear of either life or
death. The creative process can rise above those fears,
rather than feed on them and thus hinder a fuller
inspiration.
" Something is about to give
I can feel it coming
I think I know what it means
I am not afraid to die
I am not afraid to live
And when I'm flat on my back
I hope to feel like I did "
( Kite - ATYCLB)
m.p
----------
In article <3ABA8449...@erols.com>,
gala...@erols.com wrote:
When I listen to "Beautiful Day" against "I
> Still Haven't
> Found What I'm Looking For" I can hear a big shift in ideas.
> ISHFWILF looks
> forward while BD is focused on the present -- a content person
> is talking to
> someone who's still looking. But, again, I'm not sure how to
> reconcile this
> with the overwhelming drive to make the world a better place.
> If I am content
> personally but not politically, am I really content? I
suspect
> that I am, in
> which case my ideas fly out the window, which is fine by me.
This image of ideas flying out the window is a freeing
one. Ideas flying, out the window, disappearing before
transforming, somewhere beyond my present awareness,
making room for new ideas to come into mind, new fresh
ideas, some connected to subtle and expansive
terrains... Yeah, the flying out of ideas is fine by me
too. I will content in it.
Content, because a more linear approach, with all of us
gearing up to answer each other's in exclusively linear
fashions, would leave me feeling somewhat less
fulfilled, less expanded. And besides, what would
philosophy be without the almost indispensable added
touch of the poetic mind to balance any exaggerated
hard-edged thinking?
Certainly the less linear and more expansive approach
will offer a challenge to our minds but frankly this is
the kind of challenge that does bring contentment to my
own hungry, curious brain cells, avid for new
connections of various realms, subjects, people, and
yes, even galaxies. For they like to exercised those
cells! into more of their potential. Cells of mind and
of heart, of heart in the mind, of mind in the heart,
all those cells of mine cherish the opportunity to skip,
and also to hop and to pop before landing in a virgin
field where they can stand amazed and rest, lifted by
imagination. There gratitude organically emerges, and
with it a renewed appreciation for this Great Adventure
of living, the kine that involves words, rhythms, sounds
and silences... and also more than that, much more than
that.
This is the kind of traveling (of mind linking with
breathing living heart) that more often than not leaves
me with a feeling of contentment. If this was to be the
only contentment I could receive from such a moment,
then dayyenu, in itself this would be ample and
sufficient. For there is enough exploring to be made
there, enough exploring to experience peace, even while
stuck in a moment of time. ( a form of "running to stand
still") There is enough action and resting mixed there
to let me taste the blessing of peaceful contentment and
contentment is a great medium designed to feel oneself
lifted out of the stuckness of time, even while
fulfilling one's incarnation.
As soon as I declare and truly *feel* myself well
satisfied and content within the moment, the experience
that i get inwardly, of now being at peace, in peace,
opens my being just a little more, and it gets
nurtured, just a little more. And when the heart
remembers to enjoy its cyclical sabbatical of rest and
contentment, it becomes fertile ground for further new
adventuring, the kind of the sacred adventuring in
living that will not the contentment slowly rot into a
sort of deadening boredom. Kingdoms rise and kingdoms
fall, they do and will, all this while the adventure,
the steady quest of the human spirit goes on.
While there is quest, there can be hope
and for now i will be content with the hope
of a better future for many,
and i mean for many, for most,
the hope for a speedy -and in our times- transformation
of the heart, rising, ascending, elevating self and
others
in countless spiralling upward moves.
Better to hope than despair since prolonged despair sets
in motion a downward falling of doom and gloom, a doom
and gloom that those of us who know better than give in
to the darkness must learn to let go of, let go of it in
ourselves to begin with, this even as we recognize,
acknowledge, witnessi that all is not well in the
earthly kingdom and that many are those who get pushed
into the grips of despair by political forces that are
too often beyond their control.
Which leads me now back to your important
question-statement:
> If I am content
> personally but not politically, am I really content? I suspect
that I am, in which case my ideas fly out the window,
which is fine by me.
Ah, our ideas flying out the window, what a dynamic and
tempting image this presents, one that can usher in the
letting go of illusions, the peace found in the creative
void, the space given to renewal, the resurrection that
does come after our dying to the old. As my ideas fly
off, some good and some not so, I find -within-
increased satisfaction when I remember to add a few
simple breaths and sighs of contented surrender to the
great adventure of living, an amazingly complex -and
quite extraordinary- human adventure we all share. One
breath first, and then one more. One step at a time, one
breath at a time. One and then one more. This is how i
reconcile this personal contentment, those moments of
being at peace within myself, with my walking on and
"with the overwhelming drive to make the world a better
place." That drive that is imprinted in me as well as in
many others. In fact, it seems that the more I find
contentment and peace within the self, the better
equipped I become to do my little individual share in
making the world a better place, the better able I am to
carry my own weight and not be burdened by it. Like the
apprentice gardener I am, i find that my thumb gets
greener the more I let myself relate to those moments of
contentment that fly by us, begging to be caught by
those who have the eyes to see, the heart to feel. Like
butterflies, I catch those moments and enjoy them for
what they are. While doing this I learn to enjoy myself
for who I am. Then I release the moments to the great
unknown and let them fly away, and disappear out of the
reach of any willfull grasping memory. Because pinned
butterflies cannot fly. And flying is a joy, whether one
flies on the magic carpet of ideas or on the wings of a
human heart that has touched the flame, deep within the
self.
I
> don't know...
> Any philosophers out there?
>
>
I don't know either... but like you i do enjoy
philosophers and other kinds of acrobats. These might
not be our last words, but if they are, dayyenu, this in
itself would have been sufficient; and so now I am left,
more content than an hour ago.
gala...@erols.com
previous messages. My original response to this thread had two major
points. The first was that "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For"
can have more than a religious component to it if we let it. I saw this
particular topic on the newsgroup a few times, and I was afraid of
alienating the non-religious by not bringing up an alternate
interpretation. The second point was that the search for ultimate
personal spiritual (not necessarily in an organized religion sort of
way) fulfillment is what drives human existence. (It's when humans deny
this aspect of themselves that the world, the earthly world if you will,
changes for the worse.) It's my own theory, of course, and I certainly
didn't intend to go much further than those statements. I will try to
continue with what I started, however, but may I suggest we take it to
e-mail if we wander too far off U2 as our subject. : )
(To all onlookers, I apologize for the philosophical meanderings!)
m.p
----------
In article <3ABBD508...@erols.com>,
gala...@erols.com wrote:
Maybe we need to compile a list of the 10, or of the 20
, the 10 or 20 something. It would definitely be more
rational, more orderly.
Still, why would one, why would you, feel a need to
apologize for meandering, unless your meanderings,
philosophical or otherwise, were aimed at hurting
others??? Beats me.
Now re your two major points: in my view those were
clearly expressed; I tend to agree with both.
One question: in the song 'When I look at the world',
do you understand the word 'exp-nsive as 'expensive' or
'expansive'? (without looking at the CD booklet where i
keep imagining that what i see is a spelling mistake)
"When your thoughts are too exp-nsive
To ever want to keep
when there's all kinds of chaos
... "
You or anyone else wishing to share some personal
meanderings on any of these two possibilities? Such
thoughts would be appreciated... at least by this one
person here, who will now sign off for the day and go
to town.
melia
Andrea
gala...@erols.com wrote:
<< Anyway, more on point, in terms of our discussion of "I Still Haven't Found What I'm
Looking For," I was trying to express the idea that the song could relate not only to a
religious search or a quest for divine understanding. I'm certainly not dismissing the
religious aspect of the lyrics; I hear it everytime I listen to the song, as do many
others. But my point was that many of us are driven to write books or paint or write
songs or clean woods or teach children, and we are driven to do these things with every
part of our being, with our souls if you like. The search for fulfillment doesn't have to
be a strictly religious one. Spirituality (as opposed to religiosity) can be found
everywhere. An atheist can reach the core of his being by helping the homeless, for
example. So, maybe the singer hasn't found the perfect song, maybe he's looking for the
perfect note, maybe he's trying to express his feelings perfectly in song but hasn't been
able to do it yet. That's what I like best about the song. A 17 year old non religious
girl who doesn't know what she wants to do in life can sing it in the car and it can have
a whole different meaning than, say, a 38 year old man who is deeply religious. I wanted
to acknowledge that different side of the song. >>
Totally agree. I will tell you something about my own history: I was brought up in a way I
felt neglected emotionally, psychologically and spiritually. My parents (my mother finally
admitted to that) "didn't know" (!!!) that a child had emotional needs, like being loved
unconditionally, no matter what, and **not** being humiliated and treated like scum...
I grew up feeling like that, empty, with nothing to fill my soul with. By the age of 15 I
turned to philosophy, psychology, poetry (I wrote poetry myself and from time to time
I still do), art (music, painting, sculpture, etc.), I began to believe in God, anything
that would fulfil me as a person. I felt that a human being NEEDED to have a spiritual
life, that it wasn't just flesh and bones... it was more than that... it had a soul. And
in the same way you eat to stay alive and keep your body healty, you have to feed your
soul. Anything that would make me feel something inside, that would make me think, use my
heart and also my brain. I turned to those things that made me feel I'm a person like
anybody else, with a body and a mind. I felt content, fulfilled, happy in my own world of
emotions, where I had finally found happiness (as opposed to the emptiness I felt as a
result of the emotional neglect and abandonment). So I've mentioned here many things that
are not necessarily related to religion, even though you can always find the link to it.
Like in a painting, for instance, when you see the Virgin and child, The Creation, the
Crucifixion, etc. But I'm referring to painting in general, to the art in itself that can
be very fulfilling. I could stare at a painting for quite a long time, that I would never
get tired of it. I would look for the things in it that would 'speak to me', like shapes,
colours, depth, or just some kind of effect mixing all these elements. I can also stand in
front of a sculpture and stare at it indefinitely, just because I find so much beauty in
it. Not necessarily the aesthetic beauty, which is important too, but the emotional beauty
in it. Do you get the idea? So fulfillment does *not necessarily* come from religion but
from finding the right things that don't make your soul feel empty, thinks that 'speak' to
your soul.
<< I think I understand your point here, but I'm not sure how to answer it since I'm still
not quite sure what my idea is. : ) The lyric is "You thought you'd found a friend to
take you out of this place. Someone you could lend a hand in return for grace." When I
listen to "Beautiful Day" against "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For" I can hear
a big shift in ideas. ISHFWILF looks forward while BD is focused on the present -- a
content person is talking to someone who's still looking. >>
Exactly my thought too. ISHFWILF refers to someone still looking, searching. The title of
the song says that clearly! Someone who's searching for perhaps his own identity as a
human being, or trying to understand what The Creation means as regards the imperfection
of mankind... It could be either of them. The meaning of life as a whole, the passage of
time, man's role as a social and political being and as one created by God... It can be
different things. It depends on WHAT answers you are looking for, what sort of questions
are in your mind and in your heart. I also agree that BD is focused on the present. IMO,
it's also about a content/fulfilled person who has learnt through his own or someone
else's experiences in life and now feels he's walked along all the way and can say "I've
got everything/I've got more than what I wanted". Anyway, I think that deep deep inside,
the human being is constantly searching on a spiritual level. What you thought it could
fulfil you some years ago, perhaps now it doesn't anymore, and so on... Maybe now after
some years, you changed, your life changed due to different circumstances, and you find
yourself again at the beginning of the road, searching. Perhaps some kind of unexpected
event turned your life upside down, and now you have to start searching all over again.
There will be new questions you will ask yourself, and you will be eager to find the
answers... So it's like a never-ending search, a constant change - the world changes, the
circumstances change - a dynamism that carries you with it and doesn't ask you whether you
'want' or don't 'want' to change. Change happens and what before fulfilled you, maybe now
it does no more.
<< But, again, I'm not sure how to reconcile this with the overwhelming drive to make the
world a better place. If I am content personally but not politically, am I really
content? I suspect that I am, in which case my ideas fly out the window, which is fine by
me. I don't know... Any philosophers out there? >>
I think that the world depends very much on our personal and collective efforts to make it
a better place. But to reach this, the idea of Good must prevail. My own and very personal
opinion about it is that Good can be achieved only if we look inside ourselves through our
knowledge and emotions, and project in the spirit of others that image we want of
ourselves and the world. Thus, if we all did this, we would never kill anybody, there
wouldn't be wars, etc. Who wants destruction or be destroyed? Who wants to live in a world
with hostility and discrimination? Quoting Sting (from "Moon Over Bourbon Street"):
"How could I be this way
When I pray to God above
I must love what I destroy
And destroy the thing I love".
So nobody is blameless for whatever crime we may comit against our own species... Even
though we can be praying to God above, something in us will always be vulnerable. It's up
to each and every one of us to know how to work on that vulnerability so as to give it the
right direction towards good things and not towards destruction...
Mind you that I'm NOT trying to make this sound simple... No! It's definitely not simple!
But the thing that contradicts this idea of Good is our own imperfection as human beings.
We're not perfect. We know where perfection is. We will never be perfect. Quoting Sting
again (from "Consider Me Gone"):
"To search for perfection
Is all very well
But to look for Heaven
Is to live here in Hell".
What do you think about this? Was he referring to something he'd been looking for but
hadn't found yet?
As human beings, we are supposed to make mistakes and learn from them. Human imperfection
leads us to greed, to hatred, self-destrucion, arrogance... Why destroy what we are
supposed to love? This is the only world we've got, and we live only once! The idea of
Good can help us take a step forward beyond our own imperfection and make us realise that
if we, individually and collectively, pull our weight and think that some day the world
can be a better place, then our minds will be set on that idea and so we will definitely
turn it into that world we want to live in, a world where we can live peacefully with one
another.
That's what I'm looking for... and I still haven't found it...
--
Andrea, The Proud U2 Fan
NO FB DB++++ S+++ (no merch) N+ B++ C L+++ O++ CV+ UF7/JT3/PO6/ATYCLB5
"If you cry, the tears won't let you see the stars..."
gala...@erols.com
> Still, why would one, why would you, feel a need to
> apologize for meandering, unless your meanderings,
> philosophical or otherwise, were aimed at hurting
> others??? Beats me.
Only because this is a group for discussing music and I thought we may
have been straying from the original interest, namely "I Still Haven't
Found." But, as long as people are up for a discussion like this, then
I'll be here! (Personally, I think any issue that has been sparked by a
U2 song is pertinent here, though I may be in the minority. Who knows?)
> Now re your two major points: in my view those were
> clearly expressed; I tend to agree with both.
OK, I wasn't sure since we seemed to head quickly from the song lyrics
to contentment and death. I was hoping that my real statements (as
opposed to my musings) hadn't been lost in the shuffle. (Oftentimes, at
least in my case, what makes perfect sense to me, especially in
discussions like these, means absolutely nothing to everyone else!!)
> One question: in the song 'When I look at the world',
> do you understand the word 'exp-nsive as 'expensive' or
> 'expansive'? (without looking at the CD booklet where i
> keep imagining that what i see is a spelling mistake)
>
> "When your thoughts are too exp-nsive
> To ever want to keep
> when there's all kinds of chaos
> ... "
I hear and understand "expensive," but I can see why you may be more
intrigued by "expansive," though the line would have a completely
different meaning if it were expansive. Personally I like expensive.
Thoughts cost their creators a lot during their genesis -- emotionally,
spiritually. And they cost their creators even more if they don't share
them, they eat away at the psyche. Plus, if they happen to be great
ideas, their going unsaid also costs the world in general. In these
senses, thoughts can be terribly expensive, whether or not we realize
that fact. In a previous message you mentioned some passages from the
Bible. Are you familiar also with the "Gospel of Thomas"? There is a
saying in that gospel attributed to Jesus: "If you bring forth what is
within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring
forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."
But I find no fault if you sing it as "expansive." : ) Whatever has the
most meaning for you is probably how you should be singing it. Richard
Ashcroft (formerly of the Verve) said once that he hated when artists
would explain the intricate meanings of song lyrics in interviews
because it ruined the magic for him. I tend to agree, but I still love
fan discussions like the one we're having now. : )
gala...@erols.com
certainly glad that you were able to work past the poor foundations laid when you were young.
Andrea wrote:
> And
> in the same way you eat to stay alive and keep your body healty, you have to feed your
> soul.
I have always believed in this idea. Spiritual well-being (whether through painting or
praying or dancing or hiking) is essential for everyone in this world. It's also been my
experience that material poverty brings out almost unimaginable amounts of spiritual wealth.
> But I'm referring to painting in general, to the art in itself that can
> be very fulfilling. I could stare at a painting for quite a long time, that I would never
> get tired of it. I would look for the things in it that would 'speak to me', like shapes,
> colours, depth, or just some kind of effect mixing all these elements. I can also stand in
> front of a sculpture and stare at it indefinitely, just because I find so much beauty in
> it. Not necessarily the aesthetic beauty, which is important too, but the emotional beauty
> in it. Do you get the idea?
Most especially. Have you heard of Walter Pater? In the 19th century he renounced organized
religion and instead developed an idea of "worshiping" art for art's sake ("Aestheticism").
Pretty interesting...
> I think that the world depends very much on our personal and collective efforts to make it
> a better place. But to reach this, the idea of Good must prevail.
It's a lovely utopian idea. The problem, as I see it, is how we all define "good" (see
below).
> My own and very personal
> opinion about it is that Good can be achieved only if we look inside ourselves through our
> knowledge and emotions, and project in the spirit of others that image we want of
> ourselves and the world. Thus, if we all did this, we would never kill anybody, there
> wouldn't be wars, etc. Who wants destruction or be destroyed? Who wants to live in a world
> with hostility and discrimination?
No one, but those people who define "good" according to any criteria that excludes others
(hair color, eye color, religion, skin color, sex, nationality) are usually hell-bent on
destroying anyone different in order to reach their own narrow utopias. Hitler, of course, is
the most obvious example. He thought he was doing the right thing. But this debate began
long before the 1930s. Plato and Socrates in the 4th century B.C.E. both outlined systems for
attaining the "good," as they defined it. Socrates' system excluded women entirely, while
Plato devised a frightening totalitarian system of state-controlled procreation between only
the most perfect men and women. Don't get me wrong I agree with the principle of your idea;
the only problem lies in interpretation.
> We're not perfect. We know where perfection is. We will never be perfect.
But I don't know where perfection is, so doesn't that become a difficulty? In a world where
everyone believes in different things and values different things in life, how do you seek
"perfection" or "contentment" or "the good" without alienating whole populations of people?
Each group on this globe may define these terms differently. How do you begin to define a
system to work toward contentment, for example, without implying that the centuries old belief
systems held by many different peoples are wrong? Also, if we each follow our own paths will
it result in anarchy in a bad sense or anarchy in the best sense?
> Quoting Sting
> again (from "Consider Me Gone"):
>
> "To search for perfection
> Is all very well
> But to look for Heaven
> Is to live here in Hell".
>
> What do you think about this? Was he referring to something he'd been looking for but
> hadn't found yet?
Yes, in a sense I think. Hmmm...it sounds to me like a total loss of faith in whatever he
placed his faith in. That particular verse has always sounded to me like the perfect "secular
humanist" viewpoint. To live one's life always focused on an afterlife does no good to the
world. Focusing on some perfect realm turns life here on earth into hell. Since nothing can
ever compare to the wonders that we think wait for us, why even bother with the world? What
we should really be doing is making our very own paradise here on earth. Anyway, that's what
I hear in that verse. The rest of the song seems to refer to a person, though, so I'm not
sure what to make of the song as a whole.
> As human beings, we are supposed to make mistakes and learn from them. Human imperfection
> leads us to greed, to hatred, self-destrucion, arrogance... Why destroy what we are
> supposed to love? This is the only world we've got, and we live only once! The idea of
> Good can help us take a step forward beyond our own imperfection and make us realise that
> if we, individually and collectively, pull our weight and think that some day the world
> can be a better place, then our minds will be set on that idea and so we will definitely
> turn it into that world we want to live in, a world where we can live peacefully with one
> another.
>
> That's what I'm looking for... and I still haven't found it...
Me either...
Leanmc420
>
>I don't think I wrote as clearly as I would have hoped for in my
>previous messages. My original response to this thread had two major
>points. The first was that "I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For"
>can have more than a religious component to it if we let it. I saw this
>particular topic on the newsgroup a few times, and I was afraid of
>alienating the non-religious by not bringing up an alternate
>interpretation.
"religion" can be an ultimate concern. It need not be limited by dogma and
superstition to one particular theology. Why, I'd break bread and wine . . .
>The second point was that the search for ultimate
>personal spiritual (not necessarily in an organized religion sort of
>way) fulfillment is what drives human existence. (It's when humans deny
>this aspect of themselves that the world, the earthly world if you will,
>changes for the worse.) It's my own theory, of course, and I certainly
>didn't intend to go much further than those statements. I will try to
>continue with what I started, however, but may I suggest we take it to
>e-mail if we wander too far off U2 as our subject. : )
>
Please, *don't*. The search for meaning in life is at the heart of U2's music.
We'd be dissing their entire lives if we shyed away from keeping it real when
it comes to talking about what matters to us. What is "real" and "true" (in
quotation marks, in the original) is very much what U2 are all about.
>(To all onlookers, I apologize for the philosophical meanderings!)
>
Dude, Bono got over that a long time ago. If you really feel bad, just ask "Am
I bugging you? Don't mean to bug you." :-)
>
>
>
>
>
WILSONM
we are never satisfied in this world.
Also CS Lewis wrote in his classic work "Mere Christianity", "If I find in
myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most
probable explanation is that I was made for another world.
michael
gala...@erols.com
> "religion" can be an ultimate concern. It need not be limited by dogma and
> superstition to one particular theology.
My preference, then, is to use the word spirituality as opposed to religion.
> >I will try to
> >continue with what I started, however, but may I suggest we take it to
> >e-mail if we wander too far off U2 as our subject. : )
> >
>
> Please, *don't*. The search for meaning in life is at the heart of U2's music.
> We'd be dissing their entire lives if we shyed away from keeping it real when
> it comes to talking about what matters to us. What is "real" and "true" (in
> quotation marks, in the original) is very much what U2 are all about.
I addressed this yesterday in another post. Like I said there, I'm never sure how
far away from the music itself this group is willing to go. It wasn't clear to me
until yesterday that other people were interested in such a discussion, but now
that I'm certain... : )
> >(To all onlookers, I apologize for the philosophical meanderings!)
>
> Dude, Bono got over that a long time ago. If you really feel bad, just ask "Am
> I bugging you? Don't mean to bug you." :-)
Actually, I bug myself sometimes! I'd much rather talk about bass lines or
something, but it's the nature of U2 that other more profound topics inevitably
come up, topics that I like to explore. But, I do know there are people who can't
tolerate these sort of intangible subjects, so I guess I was just thinking of them.
Thanks for the reply!
Andrea
<< No one, but those people who define "good" according to any criteria that excludes
others (hair color, eye color, religion, skin color, sex, nationality) are usually
hell-bent on destroying anyone different in order to reach their own narrow utopias.
Hitler, of course, is the most obvious example. He thought he was doing the right thing.
But this debate began long before the 1930s. Plato and Socrates in the 4th century B.C.E.
both outlined systems for attaining the "good," as they defined it. Socrates' system
excluded women entirely, while Plato devised a frightening totalitarian system of
state-controlled procreation between only the most perfect men and women. >>
I don't exclude anyone... We're all human beings... It isn't important to me what hair
colour, or religion, or sex, or nationality or skin colour you have, I mean it! I don't
pay attention to those things. To me what's important is what someone is like as a person.
The rest is less significant. So, I'm explaining to you what I meant so that there is no
misunderstanding or mistaken interpretation
<< Don't get me wrong I agree with the principle of your idea; the only problem lies in
interpretation. >>
I'm glad you agree. And as for the interpretation, you're right, but in my previous post I
tried to be as clear as possible so that there wouldn't be any misleading interpretation.
I also explained my thoughts in the previous paragraph.
gala...@erols.com
> I don't exclude anyone... We're all human beings... It isn't important to me what hair
> colour, or religion, or sex, or nationality or skin colour you have, I mean it! I don't
> pay attention to those things. To me what's important is what someone is like as a person.
> The rest is less significant. So, I'm explaining to you what I meant so that there is no
> misunderstanding or mistaken interpretation
No, I understood exactly what you said, and I agree with it. : ) My point to you was that if
we define the best system as striving for the "good" then we run the risk of creating more
problems than we would solve. Your definition of "good" is the best one, I think, but not
everyone has the same definition. When everyone works toward different understandings, the
world goes nowhere. I was addressing the wider implications of your lovely ideas; I wasn't
finding fault with them.
> I'm glad you agree. And as for the interpretation, you're right, but in my previous post I
> tried to be as clear as possible so that there wouldn't be any misleading interpretation.
> I also explained my thoughts in the previous paragraph.
I didn't mean interpretation of your points!! I meant the **world's** interpretation of the
word "good" (or "perfect" or "content"). That's where the problem lies, not with your
message. I apologize for not writing these points more clearly in my earlier post.
Jodygombos
working. If you find its too confusing, maybe its the math you're using.
Jodygombos
m.p
----------
In article <3ABCE4F2...@erols.com>,
gala...@erols.com wrote:
and I thought
> we may
> have been straying from the original interest, namely "I Still
> Haven't
> Found." But, as long as people are up for a discussion like
> this, then
> I'll be here!
That's good news
>
>> One question: in the song 'When I look at the world',
>> do you understand the word 'exp-nsive as 'expensive' or
>> 'expansive'? (without looking at the CD booklet where i
>> keep imagining that what i see is a spelling mistake)
>>
>> "When your thoughts are too exp-nsive
>> To ever want to keep
>> when there's all kinds of chaos
>> ... "
>
> I hear and understand "expensive," but I can see why you may
be
> more
> intrigued by "expansive," though the line would have a
> completely
> different meaning if it were expansive. Personally I like
> expensive.
> Thoughts cost their creators a lot during their genesis --
> emotionally,
> spiritually. And they cost their creators even more if they
> don't share
> them, they eat away at the psyche.
That can happen. Thoughts can become stale or obsessive
when one finds no way to allow creativity to move
forward; but if one allows the thoughts and feelings to
unfold, then new thoughts, new feelings, new aspects of
the self, get now a chance to emerge. There is pleasure
to be found in the fact that "I still haven't found what
I'm looking for", this along with the realization that
there is still ample room for growth, discovery, and
many inner and outer adventures.
Plus, if they happen to be
> great
> ideas, their going unsaid also costs the world in general. In
> these
> senses, thoughts can be terribly expensive, whether or not we
> realize
> that fact.
Indeed; ideas can be a precious commodity, particularly
when transformation is urgently needed.
In a previous message you mentioned some passages
> from the
> Bible. Are you familiar also with the "Gospel of Thomas"?
> There is a
> saying in that gospel attributed to Jesus: "If you bring
forth
> what is
> within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not
> bring
> forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will
> destroy you."
That oen saying reminds me some of the other one,
found in the same Gospel :
" Jesus said, " If your leaders say to you, 'Behold
the kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds in the sky
will get there before you. If they say to you, 'It is in
the sea, then the fish will get there before you.
' Rather, the kingdom is inside you
and outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will
be known, and will understand that you are children of
the living G-d. But if you do not know yourselves, then
you live in poverty, and embody poverty. " (saying 3)
To go back to what you were saying (about it costing
the world when great ideas go unsaid), I have often
reflected on what Jesus would have lost -and the world
with him- if he himself had not previously been inspired
by this teaching of Moses and "ran with it":
" Moses said, "For this commandment which I command
thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it
far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldst say,
'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us,
that we may hear it, and do it ? Nor is it beyond the
sea, that thou shouldst say, Who shall go over the sea
for us, and bring it to us, that we may hear it, and do
it ? But the word is very near to thee, in thy mouth,
and in thy heart, that thou mayst do it.'
(Deuteronomy 30 : 11-14)
> Richard
> Ashcroft (formerly of the Verve) said once that he hated when
> artists
> would explain the intricate meanings of song lyrics in
> interviews
> because it ruined the magic for him. I tend to agree, but I
> still love
> fan discussions like the one we're having now. : )
>
>
I do too. Artists need not explain. Only inspire
and strike the sparks waiting in our hearts, minds,
souls . We each can give meaning to their words and as
we change, our meanings might change. This tends to
explain why great artists can be heard and heard again,
and it often feels as if it is For The First Time.
m.p
m.p
----------
In article <u40v6.20969$PF4....@news.iol.ie>, "Andrea"
<and...@not.available.com> wrote:
> First of all, sorry for the long post, I was inspired, and I
> felt I had so much to say!
You do... and i love it.
gala...@erols.com
> There is pleasure
> to be found in the fact that "I still haven't found what
> I'm looking for", this along with the realization that
> there is still ample room for growth, discovery, and
> many inner and outer adventures.
That's the heart of the idea I had about the song, only I think you've
said it better! Not having found what one is looking for doesn't have
to be a sense of desolation, but joy at what could come or develop in
one's internal or external life later (just as you've said!).
> To go back to what you were saying (about it costing
> the world when great ideas go unsaid), I have often
> reflected on what Jesus would have lost -and the world
> with him- if he himself had not previously been inspired
> by this teaching of Moses and "ran with it":
Or, even, such people as Einstein, Pythagoras, Buddha, Simone de
Beauvoir, Martin Luther King Jr., John Lennon, Stephen Hawking. Imagine
if any of these people (and millions more throughout history, famous and
not) had kept their ideas to themselves. How much poorer we all would
be!
We discussed sometime last week the relationship (if any) between
creativity and death. I thought about that idea for a few days without
too much progress, but I got something in the mail that sparked
something new. It's the program for an upcoming film festival. In it
is a description of Jean Cocteau's "Orpheus," his 1950 version of the
Orpheus and Eurydice myth. The last part of the description is this:
"...it [the film] underscores his [Cocteau's] belief that an artist must
be a conduit between art and muse, and life and death." Have you got
any thoughts on this?
Leanmc420
>
>Leanmc420 wrote:
>
>> "religion" can be an ultimate concern. It need not be limited by dogma and
>> superstition to one particular theology.
>
>My preference, then, is to use the word spirituality as opposed to religion.
>
I guess using "religion" is sometimes useful because spirituality can be found
in "poetry" or "music", too. For me, "religion" (as opposed to one particular
religious faith) represent all the systematic ways of approaching a
transcendent reality that are used by communities of faith. I agree with you
that lots of people have too much religion and not enough spirituality, but
millions of people find one religion or another a useful means of expressing
themselves as spiritual beings.
Religion also has a wide and rich literary, musical and mythical tradition.
Lots of the greatest creative works that humans have ever made were inspired by
Religion and contain explicit Religious themes.
A lot of the best parts of Religion are common to *every* religion. I guess
that's where spirituality comes in. When you get down to it, every religion
tries to encourage people to be kind and loving, and not be brutal or cruel.
But most religions teach through metaphors, stories, and those stories are
often really beautiful and interesting in and of themselves.
I'm not trying to argue that you must follow a particular religion, I'm just
suggesting that there is a lot of good stuff that folks can find if they look
at all the different religions. Its like how muscians listen to other music,
and rip off the stuff that sounds good. People can "sample" from different
religious traditions, and if something seems to fit, then put it to work!
gala...@erols.com
words to refer to the same state of being, as it were (religion v. spirituality).
Leanmc420 wrote:
> I agree with you
> that lots of people have too much religion and not enough spirituality, but
> millions of people find one religion or another a useful means of expressing
> themselves as spiritual beings.
And I would never deny them the opportunity of flexing that part of their soul
through religious ritual, etc. I hope I didn't imply somewhere that the religious
are somehow lacking in greater spiritual understanding. I don't think that's what
you're saying here, but I'd just like to be sure. I'm not religious particularly
(leaning more toward art, music, and some philosophy), but the power that faith and
belief bring to peoples' live can never be questioned.
> Religion also has a wide and rich literary, musical and mythical tradition.
> Lots of the greatest creative works that humans have ever made were inspired by
> Religion and contain explicit Religious themes.
>
> A lot of the best parts of Religion are common to *every* religion. I guess
> that's where spirituality comes in. When you get down to it, every religion
> tries to encourage people to be kind and loving, and not be brutal or cruel.
> But most religions teach through metaphors, stories, and those stories are
> often really beautiful and interesting in and of themselves.
I think I mentioned in an earlier message that I am an ancient historian with a
very strong interest in ancient religions, including not only Christianity and
Judaism (and all their ancient sects), but also Islam (on the cusp of ancient),
Buddhism, Orphism, Pythagoreanism, Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, etc. As you say, the
literary and artistic output influenced and commissioned by these various religions
is incredible and incredibly beautiful. In fact, it's their very innate beauty
that sustains me in what I do every day! : )
> I'm not trying to argue that you must follow a particular religion, I'm just
> suggesting that there is a lot of good stuff that folks can find if they look
> at all the different religions. Its like how muscians listen to other music,
> and rip off the stuff that sounds good. People can "sample" from different
> religious traditions, and if something seems to fit, then put it to work!
I agree with that! I've also noticed that most religions have done this and are
much more closely related than a lot of people realize. Judaism begat
Christianity, which was also influenced by Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, and
Greek/Roman culture, and it shows similarities to Buddhism, as well. Islam was
built on the foundations laid by the Judeo-Christian culture of the time. In an
ideal world we would be able to take the best aspects of all religions and roll
them up into a single uber-religion that would lead us all to lasting world peace.
If only...
Leanmc420
>
>I'm fairly certain that we agree in essentials, we just happen to use
>different
>words to refer to the same state of being, as it were (religion v.
>spirituality).
>
yup. Language is a funny thing, isn't it? :-)
>>Leanmc420 wrote:
<snip>
>> I'm not trying to argue that you must follow a particular religion, I'm
>just
>> suggesting that there is a lot of good stuff that folks can find if they
>look
>> at all the different religions. Its like how muscians listen to other
>music,
>> and rip off the stuff that sounds good. People can "sample" from different
>> religious traditions, and if something seems to fit, then put it to work!
>
>I agree with that! I've also noticed that most religions have done this and
>are
>much more closely related than a lot of people realize. Judaism begat
>Christianity, which was also influenced by Mithraism, Zoroastrianism, and
>Greek/Roman culture, and it shows similarities to Buddhism, as well. Islam
>was
>built on the foundations laid by the Judeo-Christian culture of the time. In
>an
>ideal world we would be able to take the best aspects of all religions and
>roll
>them up into a single uber-religion that would lead us all to lasting world
>peace.
>If only...
>
Dunno, I think it would be better if there were hundereds of different
religious traditions that all mutually respected each others strivings to
approach divinity. Sort of like cheese, if you took all the different cheeses
and processed them together to make an uber-cheese, it would be very bland and
nowhere near as tastey as a buffet of many cheeses.
m.p
----------
In article <3AC27FC3...@erols.com>,
gala...@erols.com wrote:
>
>> There is pleasure
>> to be found in the fact that "I still haven't found what
>> I'm looking for", this along with the realization that
>> there is still ample room for growth, discovery, and
>> many inner and outer adventures.
>
> That's the heart of the idea I had about the song, only I
think
> you've
> said it better! Not having found what one is looking for
> doesn't have
> to be a sense of desolation, but joy at what could come or
> develop in
> one's internal or external life later (just as you've said!).
>
>> To go back to what you were saying (about it costing
>> the world when great ideas go unsaid), I have often
>> reflected on what Jesus would have lost -and the world
>> with him- if he himself had not previously been inspired
>> by this teaching of Moses and "ran with it":
>
> Or, even, such people as Einstein, Pythagoras, Buddha, Simone
> de
> Beauvoir, Martin Luther King Jr., John Lennon, Stephen
Hawking.
Certainly true; but it was the writings of people like
Moses, Isaiah, David that he studied and so I studied
who was influencing him at the time.
The muse is an important energy in the artist's life.
One has to die to one's self to give oneself over to the
muse and to one's art. Failing that, one can still
become a technician , a great one possibly, able to
faithfully repeat a form and perfect it, in and maybe
even over time. Thus the 'technician' self transforms
also but more slowly, more deliberately. The
transformation that the artist endures is more radical
and it is closer to a surrender to death and life.
Letting oneself be transformed in the waters of
surrender is the sacrifice of one's ego to the muse's
inspiration that moves us in such mysterious ways.
" who's to say where the wind will take you"
"Some days are better than others" and some periods of
transformation are also, sometimes easier, sometimes
more -obviously- fruitul. But make no mistake: the
Transformation is one single process, the one that leads
us to live our lives from beginning to end, each of us
in our individual way, each of us according to her own
understanding.
As far as biological death is concerned, I imagine that
we only cross over and then find ourselves released from
the previous garment we were clothed in, one that was
useful only during the period of time and space that
soul came to explore, and add its dream to. In the
dreams of time and space that we share and dream now in
great detail, we can become very attached to our garment
for we often mistake it for our survival. Once we give
it up, we may get to enjoy the new nakedness and place
our past burdens on the altar. In the right place at
the right time, i feel that natural death can be a cause
for celebration. I have not let myself decide yet if
unnatural death may also be. It certainly does not FEEL
that way, and feelings do give life beauty and depth to
life, and I have come to live life now, and so i will
venture a tentative "no, it's not great cause for
celebration" and i'll pursue the dream of helping those
who may not have to die because of starvation, violence,
etc....
Creativity does not emerge from the small self's
constant efforts, it is an extension of the Higher Self,
a release of Self into self, a love affair, even if the
love affair feels at times painful due to the fears and
limitations that we and our world impose on our selves.
A true artist, a channel of life being lived at its
fullest receives and translates the Energy for the sake
of giving forth, not to convince anyone, not necessarily
to be rewarded. The main reward comes within the
experience of relating to the mysterious Muse. This
relating can often become an addiction but then some
forms of addiction are healthy and I don't guard against
it.
m
gala...@erols.com
> yup. Language is a funny thing, isn't it? :-)
Noam Chomsky would be out of business if it weren't! : )
> Dunno, I think it would be better if there were hundereds of different
> religious traditions that all mutually respected each others strivings to
> approach divinity.
I like the idea of course, but we've got hundreds of organized religions now and
not enough mutual respect (one of my main problems with organized religion). But,
if you're talking about all these religions divorced from the dogma and the
doctrine and free of the layers of leadership then, yeh, yours is definitely the
better system.