A good old-fashioned tune never goes out of fashion. Rap and techno are going to die!!!!!
Geir Hongro
other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together some
sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
player.
What is a whole lot more difficult is putting together a great tune.
After some years with SHIT dominating the hitlists it seems people want
real SONGS once more.
Of course there were some people wanting real songs around 1990 too, but
instead of looking for new talent they lousy ballads by
at-least-40-year-olds like Elton John and Bryan Adams. Nowadays you've
got bands like Oasis, Blur, Bluetones and the rest of them making SONGS,
with conventional structures fashionable again!!!
I am extremely happy with that because I am tired of all the RUBBISH
coming out of the hip-hop/techno people. The good old song will NEVER
die!!!!
Long live real music played by real people!!!!
Geir Hongro
http://www.uio.no/~hongro/engelsk.htm/
P.S. This article is crossposted to a whole lot of groups, but I think
this debate is quite relevant in most of these groups as the selected
newsgroups represent both the pro-melody and the anti-melody movements.
geneyus
>One thing seems clear nowadays: People are tired of rap and techno and
>other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together some
>sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
>player.
This is the same kind of ignorant attitude that keeps music from
progressing. Hip Hop and Techno deserve alot more credit for being
inventive than they receive from "pure music" flag wavers. Have you
ever put on a Beastie Boys disc? They are maestro's in so many ways.
They've taken samples and played them like instruments. It takes an
inventive mind to turn these things in to their own entity. It's not
something you can learn overnight.
>Of course there were some people wanting real songs around 1990 too, but
>instead of looking for new talent they lousy ballads by
>at-least-40-year-olds like Elton John and Bryan Adams. Nowadays you've
>got bands like Oasis, Blur, Bluetones and the rest of them making SONGS,
>with conventional structures fashionable again!!!
Any one with any kind of heart would realize that music is not about
structures alone. It's a feeling thing. There have been countless
"songwiters" with great songs, but no heart. I've heard alot more
interesting things done in techno than I think will ever be done with
an "it's all been done before" run-in-the-mill rock song. Oasis and
Blur want to repeat the past, not learn from it.
>Long live real music played by real people!!!!
Long live music.
Sieg Hiel...Geneyus.
Geir Hongro
>This is the same kind of ignorant attitude that keeps music from
>progressing. Hip Hop and Techno deserve alot more credit for being
>inventive than they receive from "pure music" flag wavers.
What's the point in originality for originality's own sake??
Phesto
around..you act as though just because YOU may be tired of rap, and that
because you USED to be all on raps nuts that everyone feels the way you
do...anyway
love, peace, and money
Phesto
>Sieg Hiel...Geneyus.
>
I realize sieg heil in itself does not have a negative
connatation.....but you must be white or dumb to be saying it,
regardles...especially in Hip Hop group filled with black people (as well
as other peoples)...thats just some whackness
Bill Anderson
Inventive?????!!!!! Rap is NOT music. You may wish to classify it as such,
but if it is anything it is a new art(?) form. Rap started out by lifting
or stealing beats and loops from others' music, then rapping some bullshit
over it. Now they are using the same tired beats, almost every song uses
the same damn rhythm. So let's not talk about it being music or inventive,
eh? Inventive is when you create something that never before existed, and
there can be many arguments made for the entirely derivative nature of
rap.
Bill Anderson - a real artist
http://www.thefirm.com/nakedhoof/
"Accept no limitations" - YT
geneyus
>Inventive?????!!!!! Rap is NOT music. You may wish to classify it as such,
>but if it is anything it is a new art(?) form. Rap started out by lifting
>or stealing beats and loops from others' music, then rapping some bullshit
>over it. Now they are using the same tired beats, almost every song uses
>the same damn rhythm. So let's not talk about it being music or inventive,
>eh? Inventive is when you create something that never before existed, and
>there can be many arguments made for the entirely derivative nature of
>rap.
The main problem is that your lack of an ear has caused you to
generalize this "music" based on your intense hatred. What are you
going on...Coolio and TLC? Have you heard Paul's Boutique or Check
Yer Head by the Beasties? If you have and you still have this
misguided opinion then something is obviously wrong. How can you call
yourself an artist if you refuse to recognize innovation, even if it
isn't your thing?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't music an art form? Last time I
checked with a "pure" artist it was....I think that was around 1978...
Hold It Now, Hit It...Geneyus.
Bill Anderson
>Geir Hongro <hon...@www.uio.no> wrote:
>
>>One thing seems clear nowadays: People are tired of rap and techno and
>>other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together some
>>sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
>>player.
>
>progressing. Hip Hop and Techno deserve alot more credit for being
>ever put on a Beastie Boys disc? They are maestro's in so many ways.
>They've taken samples and played them like instruments. It takes an
>inventive mind to turn these things in to their own entity. It's not
>something you can learn overnight.
SNIP
>
>Sieg Hiel...Geneyus.
>
Maybe it's not something you could learn overnight Herr Nazi GeneFool.
Duh, playing samples like instruments, duh, yeah that should take a savvy
musician (or even just a computer geek/nerd/person) maybe like ten minutes
to figure out. DUH! Oh, it takes an INVENTIVE mind to borrow/steal the
samples of others and use them for their own schlock 'presentations'?
Beastie Boys??? Oh yeah, pinnacle of art for the mentally challenged.
Bill Anderson - ARTIST
geneyus
Did you read the post or are you just looking for the controversial
quote? I used the term to point out to the original poster that by
refuting hip-hop as an art form he's refusing to let music grow on the
whole. In my mind, that's a pretty fascist attitude to take towards
art. Sorry if my dumb, white-ass similes don't work too good...
by the way I'm not white. Does that matter?
...Geneyus.
Lord of deXness
>Geir Hongro <hon...@www.uio.no> wrote:
>
>>One thing seems clear nowadays: People are tired of rap and techno and
>>other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together some
>>sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
>>player.
>
Okay. Why don't you do that and the rest of us will rate the end result?
Better yet, listen to the result and then play something by someone who knows
what they're doing (in the hip-hop/techno/dance genres).
>This is the same kind of ignorant attitude that keeps music from
>progressing. Hip Hop and Techno deserve alot more credit for being
>inventive than they receive from "pure music" flag wavers. Have you
>ever put on a Beastie Boys disc? They are maestro's in so many ways.
>They've taken samples and played them like instruments. It takes an
>inventive mind to turn these things in to their own entity. It's not
>something you can learn overnight.
>
The Beastie Boys scratch the surface. Let's look at the following:
The Bomb Squad (Public Enemy, Son of Bazerk)
Liam Howlett (The Prodigy)
F. Dyce (Baby D, Acen, The House Crew)
Jairobi (A Tribe Called Quest)
Maseo (De La Soul)
Richard James (Aphex Twin)
Jack Dangers (Meat Beat Manifesto)
All of these people have pushed sampling and/or "beat construction" (my own
phrase, ain't it neato?) in very different ways, or have impacted the genre
in which they excel.
>>Of course there were some people wanting real songs around 1990 too, but
>>instead of looking for new talent they lousy ballads by
>>at-least-40-year-olds like Elton John and Bryan Adams. Nowadays you've
>>got bands like Oasis, Blur, Bluetones and the rest of them making SONGS,
>>with conventional structures fashionable again!!!
>
Your bliss is my agony. I can't stand anyone you've mentioned so far.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good song as much as anyone else. I just don't
think anyone on your list (with the exception of Elton John _long ago_) has
come up with what I would call a good song.
>
>>Long live real music played by real people!!!!
>
>Long live music.
>
Exactly.
deX!
Jason Murray
: One thing seems clear nowadays: People are tired of rap and techno and
: other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together some
: sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
: player.
Ever hear of The Roots? Gee they're a hip-hop (rap) band that use mostly
live instruments. Ever hear of Jazzmattaz (sp)? That an album (two now)
with a rapper (Guru) and great Jazz performers. (There are many others
like them. So shut the fuck up before you go shooting off at the mouth
talking about shit that you seem to know little about.
Wake up.
Do your homework.
--
O(+> Jason J. Murray
O(+> mur...@newbridge.com
O(+> Off-Ring Road Classic Director, GRADCOM Chair
O(+> ""
Jimmy Brismitzis, 1st Year Admin
In article <4i6bhn$1...@ratatosk.uio.no>, Geir Hongro <hon...@www.uio.no> writes:
>One thing seems clear nowadays: People are tired of rap and techno and
>other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together some
>sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
>player.
>
>After some years with SHIT dominating the hitlists it seems people want
>real SONGS once more.
>
>instead of looking for new talent they lousy ballads by
>at-least-40-year-olds like Elton John and Bryan Adams. Nowadays you've
>got bands like Oasis, Blur, Bluetones and the rest of them making SONGS,
>with conventional structures fashionable again!!!
>
>coming out of the hip-hop/techno people. The good old song will NEVER
>die!!!!
>
>
>
>http://www.uio.no/~hongro/engelsk.htm/
>
>P.S. This article is crossposted to a whole lot of groups, but I think
>this debate is quite relevant in most of these groups as the selected
>newsgroups represent both the pro-melody and the anti-melody movements.
>
I think I've had it right to to my ass in your worthless comments about Dance
music. I don't see why you insist on continually insulting great music. For
instance, why don't you compare a freak who listens to alternative and someone
normal looking that listens to the great stuff and realize for yourselves that
people like you don't like Dance because you can't DANCE. In fact you're all a
bunch of losers with Green Hair that viciously bash your head to other freaks
yelling into a mic with no T-Shirt on thinking they have a body, but in fact
have a puny chest like a three year old kid.
I'm sick of your shit, don't you guys have anything interesting to do
in your news group? Probably not you're all so stupid that you probably don't
know how to work it! We won't talk about Kirt Cobain and how stupid he was.
Why don't you do us all a favour and go hide in the very few Rock Bars
in your town and let us people who actually enjoy music go to our many Dance
clubs and have a good time. Everyone everywhere know that's niteclubs are the
only places to have fun at.
And some geeks who kissed their futures bye-bye long ago come on and
say that rock music requires talent and skill, WHATEVER, and making Dance beats
doesn't, or how about mixing and D.jing? You Rock/Alternative D.J's out there
are not even really d.j's, you probably don't even know what a fader is! Talent
my ass, I watch losers on T.V yelling about Peaches dressed in glossy pants and
thinking their the Presidents of the United States, WHATEVER PAL, WAKE UP ONE
DAY, AND DO US ALL A FAVOUR!
So my message after all this anger to you losers is too get your
worthless comments out of this news group so that maybe we who like Dance can
discuss it without losers like all of you wasting our time. By the way that
reminds me, why don't you ever see people from this and other dance news groups
go on Alternative or rock groups and bitch about your music? It's because we
actually have brains, ours don't swing violently to worthless guitar/yelling
shit!
L8TR Geeks go find some other fruit to write a song about and come back
when you have something more constructive to talk about. I highly doubt it!
D.J Dimitri
House Nation the only Nation!
Jimmy B.
Wheels of Steel Rule the Waves!
Sturm
time and space, and it emerged...
>>Sieg Hiel...Geneyus.
>
>Maybe it's not something you could learn overnight Herr Nazi GeneFool.
>
Fuck you!
>Duh, playing samples like instruments, duh, yeah that should take a savvy
>musician (or even just a computer geek/nerd/person) maybe like ten minutes
>to figure out. DUH! Oh, it takes an INVENTIVE mind to borrow/steal the
>samples of others and use them for their own schlock 'presentations'?
Uhmz, i don't think you've ever listened to the Beasties _properly_ They
may sample from other tracks, but they use those smplz so innovatively,
that you don't notice that they're from other tracks. It's comparable to
those artists who use junk to create masterpieces.
>Beastie Boys??? Oh yeah, pinnacle of art for the mentally challenged.
Let's talk rap now. Have you _ever_ attempted to write a rap? It's alot
more difficult than you think. Not only do you need words that make sense,
but they need to have a rhythm, and the occasional rhyme. Try writing a
rap about your day at work today, and you'll be busy for at least a few
hours to get one which sounds decent.
--
________________________________
,/^ (c)1996 sturm/zod music crew ^\,_____________________________
|Scooter.Moby.acid.Pizzaman.plur!.Underworld: ^\,
| : .\|/. my 1st attempt|
| "Ravers of the universe - you :-) : /o o\ at 7-bit ascii|
| keep the spirit alive!" : ( ^ ) this is an |
| "H
| : | dope leaf growing|
|NiN.rave.B-Boys.Dune.Pink Floyd.the Prodigy: out of his head! |
^\, +31 (0)71 5145909 <-- Zodiac BBS ______________________________/^
^\________________________________/^
djtao
>One thing seems clear nowadays: People are tired of rap and techno and
>other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together some
>sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
>player.
>What is a whole lot more difficult is putting together a great tune.
>After some years with SHIT dominating the hitlists it seems people want
>real SONGS once more.
>Of course there were some people wanting real songs around 1990 too, but
>instead of looking for new talent they lousy ballads by
>at-least-40-year-olds like Elton John and Bryan Adams. Nowadays you've
>got bands like Oasis, Blur, Bluetones and the rest of them making SONGS,
>with conventional structures fashionable again!!!
>I am extremely happy with that because I am tired of all the RUBBISH
>coming out of the hip-hop/techno people. The good old song will NEVER
>die!!!!
>Long live real music played by real people!!!!
>Geir Hongro
>http://www.uio.no/~hongro/engelsk.htm/
>P.S. This article is crossposted to a whole lot of groups, but I think
>this debate is quite relevant in most of these groups as the selected
>newsgroups represent both the pro-melody and the anti-melody movements.
yea, anyway! don't let the net door smack your stupid ass on the way
out.
Phetus Interuptus
>>coming out of the hip-hop/techno people. The good old song will NEVER
>>die!!!!
>
>>Long live real music played by real people!!!!
Being this is the free world, you are entitled to your opinion. So I guess that means, Im entitled to mine.
RAP and Techno are new forms of music, that will spawn into endless other types. RAP and Techno
have both evolved from their simple roots, and you will probably find in the future, a combination of
Techno/Industrial and RAP. This has already happend in the underground scene, and in my opinion,
within the next few years, the underground techno that is evolving at the raves, through the work
of many D.J's and musicians, will go pop. After that, there will probably be a drastic change in the
styles.
RAP/TECHNO will not die, it will only change form.
geneyus
>>Beastie Boys??? Oh yeah, pinnacle of art for the mentally challenged.
>Let's talk rap now. Have you _ever_ attempted to write a rap? It's alot
>more difficult than you think. Not only do you need words that make sense,
>but they need to have a rhythm, and the occasional rhyme. Try writing a
>rap about your day at work today, and you'll be busy for at least a few
>hours to get one which sounds decent.
'Real" musicians can be blamed for the embarrassing white-guy raps we
constantly hear on sitcoms and bad movies...
"I'm M.C. Bill and I'm hear to say
I'm the rockinest guy in the USA..."
They think piecing together a rhyme is just that easy. Well, it is if
you have no style. Mr. Bill wants to argue about real music, well
speaking as a "real" musician, I still find musical value in Rap and
techno. Let all those who deny it, stay in limbo where their
ignorance wil leave them cold.
Geneyus.
Geir Hongro
>And before you say I know nothing of your so-called "Real" music, my
>favourite artistes other than HipHop/Rap related ones are Tom Waits, The
>Fall, and CAN.
These artists have one thing in common. They, or their vocalists,
are not at all able to sing. In other words: There's no use
writing good songs when one isn't able to sing them.
Geir Hongro
>Let's talk rap now. Have you _ever_ attempted to write a rap? It's alot
>more difficult than you think.
It's no difficult at all. You don't even need musicality.
Not only do you need words that make sense,
>but they need to have a rhythm, and the occasional rhyme. Try writing a
>rap about your day at work today, and you'll be busy for at least a few
>hours to get one which sounds decent.
That excactly what it's like to write a song lyric and a poem. So
then why don't those untalented rap idiots write a BOOK instead???
John Ashby Harler
>
>Bill Anderson <Nake...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>PS I didn't go looking for this...the original damn post was SPAMMED
all
>>over the place, and I replied. So shut up.
>
>It was spammed by me! And I totally agree with you on denying rap
>any kind of musical quality. Rap is crap!!!!!! And dance and
>techno are too!!!!
>
Ignorance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Geir Hongro
Alan C. Acock
>Geir Hongro <hon...@www.uio.no> wrote:
>
>>One thing seems clear nowadays: People are tired of rap and techno and
>>other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together some
>>sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
>>player.
>
>>What is a whole lot more difficult is putting together a great tune.
>>After some years with SHIT dominating the hitlists it seems people want
>>real SONGS once more.
>
>>Of course there were some people wanting real songs around 1990 too, but
>>instead of looking for new talent they lousy ballads by
>>at-least-40-year-olds like Elton John and Bryan Adams. Nowadays you've
>>got bands like Oasis, Blur, Bluetones and the rest of them making SONGS,
>>with conventional structures fashionable again!!!
>
>>coming out of the hip-hop/techno people. The good old song will NEVER
>>die!!!!
>
>>Long live real music played by real people!!!!
>
>
>>http://www.uio.no/~hongro/engelsk.htm/
>
>>P.S. This article is crossposted to a whole lot of groups, but I think
>>this debate is quite relevant in most of these groups as the selected
>>newsgroups represent both the pro-melody and the anti-melody movements.
Music is music is music. I listen to all kinds of music from Hip
Hop to Death Metal. To say that a form of music does not produce
songs is to say that it is by deffinition not music. I am down
right positive that you are not God and in no way shape or form an
overlly intelectually supperior person to me or over half of the
pepole who will read your rubish. I'm not even going to dis Oasis
or any of those bands because the fact is I love music, maybe not
there music but the fact that they are doing something that they
love and expressing themselfes while doing it is more than dope.
They get mad props from me for doing what they do. However if you
look at the cultural signifagance to what Oasis is doing as opposed
to KRS-1 you will see a rather large difference. There is alot of
hype coming from all kinds of music. Mostly bad. You hear more
about snoop doggy dogs murder charges than you hear about KRS-1 and
Hieroglyphics sick knolege and incredible philosophys on life. To
judge a type of music as not being music seems to me that you must
be foccusing way to much attention to the hype and not the music
itself thats just wack. You are not even seeing the positive side
of rap and hip hop. It takes no skill to yell rude words, yes.
But it does take real skill to mix records, make fresh rhymes about
inttelegent topics and at the same time takes mad skill and that is
music and they are making songs. Period.
Jeffrey Brown
Curtis Frank <cjf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>In <4i6bhn$1...@ratatosk.uio.no> Geir Hongro <hon...@www.uio.no> writes:
>
>>
>>One thing seems clear nowadays: People are tired of rap and techno and
>
>>other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together
>some
>>sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
>>player.
>>
>
>by real people. That thread is the most annoying thread. Techno is
>played by real people with computers and synthasizers making music,
>just like a guitar being an instrument.
Reminds me of something I heard Bernard Sumner say (OMIGOD!
Someone who alternative AND dance fans can like! Unbelievable):
Why is something that comes out of a sequencer not music? Someone
had to program it! It still involves the creative process and CAN
be much more interesting than hearing some session musician drone
something out in 4/4 time. (I'm paraphrasing, of course.)
Are there people out there who really only like one kind of
music? If so, why? I would be hard-pressed to think of one type
of music (notice I didn't say a particular band) that didn't have
at least some merit.
By the way, these angry posts are an endless source of amusement.
Jeff
CorsiMan
Barry Young
: Bill Anderson <Nake...@aol.com> wrote:
Yeah, so is rock, funk, pop, soul, blues, country and jazz. All music
sucks.
Baz.
martin gutierrez
writes:
and
>>>other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together
some
>>>sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a
record
>>>player.
>>
> No but serious. The first letter has a point. We shouldn't sit at
our terminals and judge music but sampling a "loop" from an old song
and rapping over it doesn't take alot of talent. Sure after this song
is finished(in about an hour from start to finish)it still has to do
well commercially. If the artist( I don't know if you can call them
that) isn't getting enough air play, than he/or she can always grab
their crew( something they always have even if they don't really do any
thing)and go out and commit a murder or some other serious crime to
help boost record sales. This music is a real joke with the laugh on
people that like the true " old school" music.
"The Gutt"
>
Jimmy Brismitzis, 1st Year Admin
>st...@zodsoft.nl (Sturm) wrote:
>
>>>Beastie Boys??? Oh yeah, pinnacle of art for the mentally challenged.
>>rap about your day at work today, and you'll be busy for at least a few
>>hours to get one which sounds decent.
>
>constantly hear on sitcoms and bad movies...
>
>"I'm M.C. Bill and I'm hear to say
>I'm the rockinest guy in the USA..."
>
>They think piecing together a rhyme is just that easy. Well, it is if
>you have no style. Mr. Bill wants to argue about real music, well
>speaking as a "real" musician, I still find musical value in Rap and
>techno. Let all those who deny it, stay in limbo where their
>ignorance wil leave them cold.
>
>Geneyus.
As I am sure you know Mr. Bill is a complete loser and is need of some serious
help. If I were you bud, I wouldn't worry about him at all. I think he's just
another Alternative Junkie with nothing better to do than pick his ass! Geneyus
you have spoken, good for you. Let's reiterate our position to Mr. Bill and
queers like him to stay off this news group!
Jimmy B.
D.J Dimitri
Geir Hongro
>In article <4idfdq$o...@dfw-ixnews1.ix.netcom.com>,
>Curtis Frank <cjf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>In <4i6bhn$1...@ratatosk.uio.no> Geir Hongro <hon...@www.uio.no> writes:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>other kinds of music without real songs. Everybody can put together
>>some
>>>sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
>>>player.
>>>
>>
>>by real people. That thread is the most annoying thread. Techno is
>>played by real people with computers and synthasizers making music,
>>just like a guitar being an instrument.
>
>Reminds me of something I heard Bernard Sumner say (OMIGOD!
>Someone who alternative AND dance fans can like! Unbelievable):
>Why is something that comes out of a sequencer not music?
It IS - if it has a MELODY on top of it!!!
geneyus
>As I am sure you know Mr. Bill is a complete loser and is need of some serious
>help. If I were you bud, I wouldn't worry about him at all. I think he's just
>another Alternative Junkie with nothing better to do than pick his ass! Geneyus
>you have spoken, good for you. Let's reiterate our position to Mr. Bill and
>queers like him to stay off this news group!
> Jimmy B.
> D.J Dimitri
I'm glad you agree with my musical stance, however I can't say I agree
with you. I happen to be an alternative junkie myself and my finger
has never smelled better. I don't believe in judging people simply by
their musical tastes. Unfortunately, sometimes it does speak volumes.
I have met assholes who love alternative music, but the same goes for
those who love country, techno, rap, hip-hop, classical, MOR...you get
the picture...assholes are assholes. As for the "queers" part,
homophobia is just another form of fascism. Accept people for what
they are, not who they blow.
Geneyus.
Andrew E Hime
: In article <4ijuai$8...@news2.toronto.istar.net>, psa...@toronto.cbc.ca (geneyus) writes:
: >st...@zodsoft.nl (Sturm) wrote:
: >>>Beastie Boys??? Oh yeah, pinnacle of art for the mentally challenged.
: >>Let's talk rap now. Have you _ever_ attempted to write a rap? It's alot
: >>more difficult than you think. Not only do you need words that make sense,
: >>but they need to have a rhythm, and the occasional rhyme. Try writing a
: >>rap about your day at work today, and you'll be busy for at least a few
: >>hours to get one which sounds decent.
: >
: >'Real" musicians can be blamed for the embarrassing white-guy raps we
: >constantly hear on sitcoms and bad movies...
: >
: >"I'm M.C. Bill and I'm hear to say
: >I'm the rockinest guy in the USA..."
: >
: >They think piecing together a rhyme is just that easy. Well, it is if
: >you have no style. Mr. Bill wants to argue about real music, well
: >speaking as a "real" musician, I still find musical value in Rap and
: >techno. Let all those who deny it, stay in limbo where their
: >ignorance wil leave them cold.
: As I am sure you know Mr. Bill is a complete loser and is need of some serious
: help. If I were you bud, I wouldn't worry about him at all. I think he's just
: another Alternative Junkie with nothing better to do than pick his ass! Geneyus
: you have spoken, good for you. Let's reiterate our position to Mr. Bill and
: queers like him to stay off this news group!
Boy, I hope queers like me are ok in whichever newsgroup you refer to.
You do know about the miracle of crossposting, no?
Bryan Larsen
>Don't you realise that when Rock 'N' Roll started, it was derided by the
>older generation as being decadent, and lacking in any structure or
>talent.
>
The APEX of music happened between 1900-1970, but it wasn't because Rock or
Rap didn't have structure, but because it has WAY TOO MUCH STRUCTURE.
Look what we have here.
1600s. BACH. Tons of structure, very fixed rhythmically. The mix of melody
and harmony makes it sound pretty darned good.
various classical periods. Most of the musical elements introduced.
tempo/volume/mood variations -- ie structure loss. ( a good thing in the
hands of a good composer )
and it so progresses up until say the 1920s (arbitrary date) when it
stagnates. (we can't call it classical music if it's still progressing)
great sit down and listen music, all of it.
Then comes the ultimate -- JAZZ. Any sort of structure can be tossed
whatsoever. Which is why you get run-away-from-here noise from some
musicians, but HEAVEN from the gods of Jazz.
But, people clamor for their mindless structure, and Rock was created from the
blues. A mindless three-chord pattern. A mindless drummer pounding away in
the background. Simple repetitive melodic structures. The only colour
(noise) is from the instruments themselves.
Now the 90s. Waddya have? RAP, C&W and techno. Tons and tons of
@%@#ing structure. You can hum the rest of a country tune after you've heard
30 seconds. RAP is what, an urban poem plus a drum machine. Techno, same
thing, except the poems are worse and you've also got a synth machine.
They're all tolerable when you hit the dance floor, but I pop in some
Tchaikovsky or Miles Davis when I need to actually listen to something.
Bryan
======================================================================
Bryan Larsen br...@rdc.ricoh.co.jp http://www.engg.uregina.ca/~blarsen
Life is like Calvinball -- you make the rules.
Studying at the University of Regina in Electronic Systems Engineering
In Japan on a work term for Ricoh Company, Ltd.
I do not speak for either organization. Gambarimashoo!
Broadcaster
>It was spammed by me! And I totally agree with you on denying rap
>any kind of musical quality. Rap is crap!!!!!! And dance and
>techno are too!!!!
It’s not hip-hop or your fault that you haven’t heard any good hip-hop.
Blame the radio/TV stations! Their criteria for what gets played or not
doesn’t include good musical abstract productions or deep lyrics, what’s
are on their minds is "no offensive lyrics" and a commercial track.
Most of all good hip-hop ain’t commercial, our star criteria doesn’t
originate in record sales but in respect...
If you think all hip-hop lyrics are about "hoes & bitches", "I’m the
badest gangster", then it just shows your ignorance and lack of knowledge
about this music.
To me for a time all rock was just a screaming guitar, all opera just
somebody screaming on top of their lungs... But then I took time to
really listen to other kinds of music, trying to fool my self that I was
a fan of that type of music (That was hard as hell!)
As for lyrics, I have a example of some complex lyric’s
Check out my lyric fathom and my
harmony text yo bust stm steps
play around get drowned I might go
left me Divine Styler the phonograph
child of the I Self Lord and
Master Nation I drop rhymes with
fascination
so combust to a thesis a brother
on a trigger bucking to a beat
nine double m fugures lick shot
all the grafted put them on a staff then unroll
the scroll of a million facts
and touche la black defense exploit
the unknown the vexed intense
subconcious trickery must dispense
before the uprise touch eyes take
a wiff of the scent its black cau-
friendid-ca-should step down for the most highiest
on your knees and the bredrin sch-
ooling of the team Rasta.fari. I
Cokni his dredlocks shed a lot of
prophecies out Styler me is plant-
ing trees for the Scheme of en-
lightning properties of minds on
the line for requesting jewel
surgury you herd of me divine M.D.
on the clergy of G.O.D. would you
believe we aint colored category of
man spicies and forget all about
the brimstone bluffing cus were
always saying a hundred percent something
Divine Styler "Ain’t Sain Nothin"
© 1989 Divine Lyric Creations/Rhyme Syndicate Music
from the album "Word Power" (Epic/Rhyme Syndicate)
For more lyric’s you should look into K.R.S. One and others:
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~krs_one/anonymous/
Even the classic disco/rap track "Rapture" by Blondie, can turn out to a
bloody mess if you take lyrics out of content:
And you try to run
but he’s got a gun
and he shoot’s you dead
and he eats your head
Compare that with some lyric bits, taken out by a person with nothing
but love for hip-hop...
Revolution ain’t never been simple
Followin’ the path of Mao and Fannon
Just build your brain and we’ll soon make progress
Paris "The Devil Made Me Do It"
Life is to some people unbearable
Committin’ suicide and that’s terrible
Was it much too much or nothin’ big?
If ya live my life, you’d be fightin’ to live
Life is to me my main asset
Too Short "Life is..."
Pushin’ a drug, I can’t understand
Destroyin’ a life with a buck in a hand
Played rotten slum chain local street hero
But if ya ask Serch, you’re just a bunch of zeros
Too bad, ‘cause when you’re older you won’t have a cent
3rd Bass "Product Of The Environment"
I could go on for days...
It’s up to you what you feel about hip-hop, but if you gonna dismiss it.
Check out the real scene and not the mainstream exploiting scene and you
won’t come of as ignorant.... Who knows maybe you’ll get some respect for
the street producers that just follow the path once set by painters like
Duscham and the whole dadaism movement. Simply use what you got!
Peace.
Broadcaster D.
Wax Crackers Ink & Underground Productions (Sweden)
Boris Diebold
>
>It IS - if it has a MELODY on top of it!!!
Ever heard some balinese music or some african tribal sounds ?
For these pleople their songs truly got melodies,but I guess not
for most of us...
Oh boy, how I hate this self-centered, ignorant attitude...
Music is certainly not defined by melody.
bop
Rosia Beaulieu
would rush in and out before it could catch on. As you know, some Disco
style prevails today. Rap, Hip-Hop, and Alternitave music all qualify as
ligitimate styles of the genre, and it's true that they may exist for a
while to come.
Geir Hongro
>Most of all good hip-hop ain’t commercial, our star criteria doesn’t
>originate in record sales but in respect...
>
>If you think all hip-hop lyrics are about "hoes & bitches", "I’m the
>badest gangster", then it just shows your ignorance and lack of knowledge
>about this music.
This is a question of MUSIC and not about LITTERATURE. "The
Message" by Grandmaster Flash is one of the best rock lyrics ever
written. But still, what I want is a SONG I can sing or play along
with. This SONG does not exist at all in rap. I don't deny rap
lyrical quality, what I deny it is MUSICAL quality, which is
something completely different.
Helix Adult CD-ROM
-----------------------------------------------------
Helix Interactive Ltd. Programming and Distribution
Toronto, Ontario http://web.idirect.com/~helix/
Helix Adult CD-ROM
Najeeb Abrar Khan
HEY!!! Did you all know that Geezer Butler, the original bassist for
Black Sabbath has started his own band? this is cool, his band is called
G//Z/R Pretty original name, huh? Well I suggest that all you
Ozzy fans and Sabbath fans check this shit out, Geezer is a revolutionary
musician...
najeeb
Franknseus
writes:
>Everybody can put together some
>sounds on a sequencer and/or shout some rude words backed by a record
>player.
Sure, anyone _could_ do that. Hell, YOU could even do that. But somehow
I doubt you could put together thoughtful lyrics and textured sound
collages the way people like Public Enemy, De La Soul and others do.
>What is a whole lot more difficult is putting together a great tune.
>After some years with SHIT dominating the hitlists it seems people want
>real SONGS once more.
Who cares which songs are on the hitlists? Is that how you choose your
music?
>Of course there were some people wanting real songs around 1990 too, but
>instead of looking for new talent they lousy ballads by
>at-least-40-year-olds like Elton John and Bryan Adams. Nowadays you've
>got bands like Oasis, Blur, Bluetones and the rest of them making SONGS,
>with conventional structures fashionable again!!!
There's nothing inherently good about being conventional or
unconventional. What's important is what you do with your structure or
lack thereof. Look at jazz -- you have some insanely unstructured stuff
that's absolutely brilliant, and on the other side of the spectrum you
have some wonderful, tight little melodies. There are different ways of
looking at the world, especially art. Get used to it.
You can listen to your Oasis, Blur, and Bluetones and that's fine.
That's what taste is all about. But 20 years from now I'll probably still
love Public Enemy's "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back," but I
won't even remember the names Oasis, Blur, or Bluetones let alone be able
to tell their music apart.
There's nothing to argue about here -- there are plenty of legitimate
ways to create music. Isn't that just common sense?
Bryan Frankenseuss Theiss
When on Earth, visit BUCKETHEADLAND, where all your dreams and nightmares
can come true.
Franknseus
writes:
>>Duh, playing samples like instruments, duh, yeah that should take a
savvy
>>musician (or even just a computer geek/nerd/person) maybe like ten
minutes
>>to figure out. DUH! Oh, it takes an INVENTIVE mind to borrow/steal the
>>samples of others and use them for their own schlock 'presentations'?
>Uhmz, i don't think you've ever listened to the Beasties _properly_ They
>may sample from other tracks, but they use those smplz so innovatively,
>that you don't notice that they're from other tracks. It's comparable to
>those artists who use junk to create masterpieces.
>
It seems to me that neither of you guys are very well schooled in the
music you're talking about. The anti-sampling guy is not only unfamiliar
with the Beastie Boys' music, he's probably not familiar with the "real
music" they sample from either.
The group in question has done a hell of a lot of good sampling. The
Dust Brothers' production on Paul's Boutique is brilliant -- there are
literally hundreds of samples on there and, like the enormous amount of
pop culture references in the lyrics, part of the fun is trying to figure
out where they come from. "Shadrach" is about the only song on the album
with unimaginitive sampling -- it lifts a huge portion of Sly Stone's
"Loose Booty". But the other stuff is great -- even the Superfly sample on
"Eggman" (which is easily identifiable) is beautifully mixed in with other
stuff, including Bernard Herrman's score for Psycho.
On the more recent Beastie Boys albums, Check Your Head and Ill
Communication, a lot of the sampling comes from themselves. They play
something, sample it, program it, and then play over that. It's one of
infinite equally legitimate approaches to music, and if you ask me it's
more interesting than your average 5 piece band because it's something we
haven't seen too much of before. The Jungle Brothers used a similar
technique on their unjustly slept on album Jaybeez Wit the Remedy. They
brought in P-Funk musicians like Bernie Worrell, Bootsy Collins and Maceo
Parker and put them on some of the tracks. And in some cases, they sampled
these recordings and added them to tracks, or sampled themselves playing
instruments and put those sounds in the mix. Remedy is also a hip hop
album that experiments with different time signatures and completely
unorthodox sounds. Songs like "Blahbludify" and "Spittin' Wicked
Randomness" scared off a lot of rap listeners and it would scare off Mr.
Sampling is Evil here too because they're just too adventurous for him.
The Beastie Boys are a great band, and they've been consistently
inventive since the beginning. Even Licensed To Ill which is pretty
embarassing in 1996 was really innovative at the time. But they completely
reinvented themselves for Paul's Boutique and again for Check Your Head.
Unlike the mainstream hip hop we're talking about here and the banal
"alternative" bands that have been mentioned, they're undpredictable and
constantly evolving.
At the same time, the Beastie Boys are not the height of hip hop
(they're genre busters, anyway). If Mr. Anti-Sampling here had an open
mind, he might be advised to listen to a Bomb Squad produced album, like,
say, Public Enemy's Fear of a Black Planet. I challenge you to identify
even an eighth of the samples on the album. Even "Fight the Power," one of
the simpler tracks, culls sounds from dozens of disparate sources and
pieces them into a completely different sound structure. If that's theft,
then so is making a dress out of somebody else's fabric, or making a
sculpture out of clay that you didn't mix yourself, or composing a
symphony using notes that have already been discovered.
Franknseus
writes:
>Inventive?????!!!!! Rap is NOT music. You may wish to classify it as
such,
>but if it is anything it is a new art(?) form. Rap started out by lifting
>or stealing beats and loops from others' music, then rapping some
bullshit
>over it. Now they are using the same tired beats, almost every song uses
>the same damn rhythm.
So basically what you're saying, then, is that you don't know what
you're talking about? Yes, rap music -- like every single genre of music
that has ever existed -- has its share of derivative crap. That doesn't
mean it's all the same -- you just can't tell the difference because you
know absolutely nothing about the music or the culture it comes from. I'm
not saying you need to understand rap music, but you ought to understand
it before you dismiss it.
Yes, rap IS music. You're just too set in your ways to be open to it.
You're like the old bastards that didn't consider electric guitar music.
And that's fine, but just be aware of it. You're a boring old guy, so face
it.
Love always,
Bryan Franknseuss Theiss
Franknseus
writes:
>These artists have one thing in common. They, or their vocalists,
>are not at all able to sing. In other words: There's no use
>writing good songs when one isn't able to sing them.
>
Yeah, yeah. There's only one way to do anything, isn't there? There's
only one way to compose music, only one way to sing, only one way to
think. Golly, I just don't understand why so many people have different
ideas than me! If only they knew the proper way to think, they could be my
friends and I wouldn't have to boss them around so much. Oh well, I'm
going to go listen to the same old boring shit again.
Have a good one!
The most intelligent man on earth,
Geir Hongro
Franknseus
>As I am sure you know Mr. Bill is a complete loser and is need of some
>serious
>help. If I were you bud, I wouldn't worry about him at all. I think he's
just
>another Alternative Junkie with nothing better to do than pick his ass!
>Geneyus
>you have spoken, good for you. Let's reiterate our position to Mr. Bill
and
>queers like him to stay off this news group!
>
>
Man, you're just embarassing those of us who really enjoy music. I like
some techno, I love hip hop, as well as funk, jazz, soul, death metal,
schmaltz, polkas, noisecore, film music, you name it. Bill is obviously a
close minded rube, but I'm afraid your responses to him make you look just
as bad. Techno is a legitimate genre, and so is "alternative." He can
listen to what he likes just as much as you can. If you have any knowledge
or love of music you ought to give the guy a real response instead of just
calling him names. I don't appreciate juvenile, homophobic jaunts being
used in place of serious musical discussion.
Michael J. Tammaro
>From: he...@idirect.com (Helix Adult CD-ROM)
>Subject: Re: A good old-fashioned tune never goes out of fashion. Rap and techno are going to die!!!!!
>Date: 22 Mar 96 16:18:43 GMT
>Rap will fade away.
Rap is a cool form of music. My feeling, however, is that there isn't enough
substance in it to make it classic. Imagine: alt.rap.classic!!! Yeah right!
Mike Tammaro
Broadcaster
>
>andrea...@mailbox.swipnet.se (Broadcaster) wrote:
>
>>If you think all hip-hop lyrics are about "hoes & bitches", "I’m the
>>badest gangster", then it just shows your ignorance and lack of
>>knowledge about this music.
>
>This is a question of MUSIC and not about LITTERATURE. "The
>Message" by Grandmaster Flash is one of the best rock lyrics ever
>written. But still, what I want is a SONG I can sing or play along
>with. This SONG does not exist at all in rap. I don't deny rap
>lyrical quality, what I deny it is MUSICAL quality, which is
>something completely different.
>
OK, then we go into the music side.
First I gotta disagree with Quincy Jones that said that even a orangutan
could handle a sampler. I personally think he would do a even better job
on a piano or guitar...
What we gotta know when we talk about rap-music is that it’s produced by
DJ. That’s why we talk about MC’s (the vocal performer), the DJ (the
sound provider) and the producer. We very seldom use the word
"musicians". But this doesn’t mean that we don’t play a instrument. I
hope that you have had the opportunity to watch a good DJ do his thing.
If you have, you know that we have transformed the turntable from a
passive medium to a active one! And doin’ melodies, harmony structures
etc. with a prerecorded sound and altering it’s pitch and sound with out
knobs or wires, don’t come of like anything else that musicality to me.
When you talk about SONG, what do you then mean? Is it traditional modern
western music structures or does this include songs from cultures with
other values and point of origin?
If you don’t think hip-hop is music, that you have stuck yourself in a
corner since hip-hop samples parts from all other kinds of music. I don’t
dismiss deathmetal or punk it’s musical content just because I don’t get
it or don’t like it. I use my freedom to not listen to it. When somebody
says that they easy could do a hip-hop track... They probably could, but
the people who like and listen to that music would hear in a second that
it wasn’t. I could pick up a guitar and start screaming and call it punk
music. Most of my friend would surely think it really was a punk track,
but I could never get away with it in a punk surrounding.
How come that most jazz musicians can feel a creativity and musicality in
this form of music (rap)? Is it that they are so limited, uncreative and
narrow minded that they feel a closeness? Couldn’t it be, that they are
open to new sounds, new sound structures and the artistic creativity that
comes straight from the mind! No one ever told the kinds this is how it’s
done, use a turntable like this, etc. They found out them self!
In hip-hop the "lyrical quality" and "MUSICAL quality" ain’t "something
completely different", since it’s vocal rhythmic poetic acapella spiced
with sounds to emphasis the rhythmic movement of the soul. It might sound
deep, but that’s what real hip-hop is about...
I don’t know to much about classical music, but I know that there is a
difference between Richard Clayderman (sorry, not sure of the
spelling...) and Mozart. But to the ears of a novice classical listener,
it probably sounds the same, but to the experts they are worlds apart.
With rap and Hip-hop it’s the same.
Peace.
Broadcaster D.
Wax Crackers Ink & Underground Productions (Sweden).
geneyus
>>Rap will fade away.
>Mike Tammaro
If the Grand Master's "The Message" isn't classic, what is?
close to the edge...Geneyus.
Geir Hongro
>When you talk about SONG, what do you then mean? Is it traditional modern
>western music structures or does this include songs from cultures with
>other values and point of origin?
Depends on which culture. The Chinese, Pakistani and Indian music
cultures have got melodies, although different from the western
ones. I don't get'em, but I still don't deny they are melodies.
Anyway what is so great about rock music is the mixture of black
rhythm and white melody. If you remove the "black" rhythm you end
up with easy listening. If you remove the "white" melody you end
up with funk or hip-hop or techno. I think all those styles are
missing something...
Geir Hongro
Broadcaster
>Depends on which culture. The Chinese, Pakistani and Indian music
>cultures have got melodies, although different from the western
>ones. I don't get'em, but I still don't deny they are melodies.
I guess that you like most people are sick and tired of the so
called "Gangster Rap"? But the fondation of the G-Funk is in most cases
the melodies - even if it in some cases are just a high pitch keyboard
tone on top of some drums. So you can’t deny that they have a melodie...
right?
Even the sampled stuff has a melodie, even if it’s a short repeted one,
it’s still a melodie!
>Anyway what is so great about rock music is the mixture of black
>rhythm and white melody. If you remove the "black" rhythm you end
>up with easy listening. If you remove the "white" melody you end
>up with funk or hip-hop or techno. I think all those styles are
>missing something...
Hip-hop is also a mixture of black rhythm and white melody! The
difference is that the rock music put it’s emphasize on the "white"
melody’s and hip-hop music put it on the "black" rhythm.
Here’s a quick list of just some samples used in hip-hop music that shows
my point and the versatility of hip-hop. So please take your time to look
through it...
Boney M "No Woman, No Cry" on Naughty By Nature's "Ghetto Bastard"
Hall & Oates "I Can't Go for that (No Can Do)" on De La Soul's "Say No
Go"
Kraftwerk "Trans-Europe Express" on Afrika Bambaataa's "Planet Rock"
O'Sullivan, Gilbert "Alone Again" on Biz Markie's "Alone Again"
Police "Every Breath You Take" on MC Peaches "Every Breath You Take"
Steely Dan "Peg" on De La Soul's "Eye Know"
AC/DC "Back in Black" on Boogie Down Production's "Dope Beat"
Art of Noise "Beat Box" on X-Clan's "In the Ways of the Scales"
Aerosmith "Walk This Way" on Run DMC's "Walk this Way"
Beatles "All You Need is Love" on A Tribe Called Quest's "Luck of Lucien"
Berry, Chuck "Johnny B. Goode" on LL Cool J's "Go Cut Creator Go"
Blood, Sweat &Tears "Smiling Phases" on Sir Mix-A-Lot's "Sprung on the
Cat"
Bowie, David "Fame" on Public Enemy's "Night of the Living Baseheads"
Cooder, Ry "Hush, Somebodys Calling My Name" on X-Clan's "Fire and Earth"
Cocker, Joe "Woman to Woman" on Ultramagnetic MC's's "Funky"
Eagles "Those Shoes" on Eric B & Rakim's "Eric B Never Scared"
Led Zeppelin "When the Levee Breaks" on Dr Dre's "Lyrical Gangbang"
Little Richard "Tutti Frutti" on Funkdoobiest's "Wopbabalubop"
Mountain "Mississippi Queen" on Beastie Boys' "Looking Down the Barrel of
a Gun"
Queen "Flash Gordon" on Public Enemy's "Terminator X to the Edge ..."
Rolling Stones "This May Be ..." on 2 Live Crew's "Get Loose Now"
Steve Miller Band "The Joker" on Geto Boys' "Gangster of Love"
Stooges "Dirt" on Jungle Brothers' "I'm in Love ..."
Thin Lizzy "Johnny the Fox" on Schooly D's "How a Black Man Feels"
Black Sabbath "Iron Man" on Sir Mix a Lot's "Iron Man"
Tracy Chapman "Fast Car" on Nice & Smooth's "Sometimes I Rhyme Slow"
Collins, Phil "In the Air ..." on Doug E Fresh's "Every Body ..."
Foreigner "Street Thunder" on EPMD's "Chill"
Gabriel, Peter "Sledgehammer" on 3rd Bass' "Pop Goes the Weasel"
Guns and Roses "Paradise City" on 2 Live Crew's "Get Loose Now"
Knack, The "My Sharona" on Run DMC's "It's Tricky"
Los Lobos "Shotgun" on Yo-Yo's "Girls Got a Gun"
Madonna "Who's that Girl?" on Li'l Shawn's "That Girl"
Pink Floyd "The Wall" on Downtown Science's "This is a Visit"
Reed, Lou "Walk on the Wild Side" on A Tribe Called Quest's "Can I Kick
It"
Rush "Tom Sawyer" Young Black Teenagers's "Time to Make the Dough"
Slayer "Angel of Death" on Public Enemy's "She Watch Channel Zero"
Springfield, Dusty "Son of a Preacher Man" on Cypress Hill's "Hits from
the Bong"
Stone Roses "Fools Gold" on Run DMC's "What's it All About?"
Tears for Fears "Shout" on Jazzy Jeff & Fresh Prince's "The Magnificent
Jazzy Jeff"
Turtles "Buzzsaw" on D-Nice's "They Call Me D-Nice"
Van Halen "Jamie's Crying" on Tone Loc's "Wild Thing"
Suzanne Vega "Tom's Diner" on Nikki D's "Daddy's Little Girl"
Who, The "Eminent Front" on 3rd Bass' "Pop Goes the Weasel"
Wings "Let 'em In" on Boogie Down Production's "JIMMY" (Vocal)
Richard Webster Wright
what a classic is. A classic is a literary/musical/artistic
piece that has survived the test of time. We have classical music, fine
and good; people are still listening to music from the
Renaissance period. There's classic rock, which I'll
assume is 60's-70's stuff, making it 30 years old roughly.
The best argument for failing to label any rap as classic is because it
is still relatively young, only a couple of decades old.
If you're not with the above, just do the egocentric thing: call anything
that's a few years old that still gets play in your
stereo/Walkman a classic. As form me, I'm going to listen to
Tribe's 'Low End Theory', a 6 year old hip-hop classic.
--
Mista Ryte
Check my 'net site: http://fulton.seas.virginia.edu/~rww6g
"He who maintains he's right - if his is the gift of tongues -
will have the last word certainly." -von Goethe
The BAD GUY, aThoL
> Boney M "No Woman, No Cry" on Naughty By Nature's "Ghetto Bastard"
I liked your list, Broadcaster D, but I think NBN sampled "No Woman, No
Cry" from the late great Bob Marley.
Everything's Irie still...
THE BAD GUY, ATHOL ___________________________________________________
"You have to stand for something or else you will fall for everything"
____________________________________________________ YU10...@YORKU.CA
Geir Hongro
>Just listen
>to Coolio's "Gangsta's Paradise".
But that melody is not NEW
I want people who compose NEW songs - songs never heard before.
Recycling an old (and great!) Stevie Wonder songs just is not good
enough.
The only rapper (part-rapper, at least) I can think of with NEW
strong melodies is Neneh Cherry...
Geir Hongro
Geir Hongro
>In article <4j8pqa$8...@nms.telepost.no>, hon...@www.uio.no says...
>
>>Depends on which culture. The Chinese, Pakistani and Indian music
>>cultures have got melodies, although different from the western
>>ones. I don't get'em, but I still don't deny they are melodies.
>
>I guess that you like most people are sick and tired of the so
>called "Gangster Rap"?
I like it better than other rap - because it has more melody!
But the fondation of the G-Funk is in most cases
>the melodies - even if it in some cases are just a high pitch keyboard
>tone on top of some drums. So you can’t deny that they have a melodie...
>right?
Kind of. The problem is it is stolen from somewhere else. Those
people are not able to compose their OWN melodies.
>Even the sampled stuff has a melodie, even if it’s a short repeted one,
>it’s still a melodie!
It's an extremely BAD one.
Here is your list of samples showing that rappers are not able to
COMPOSE good hooks by themselves.
Broadcaster
> The problem is it is stolen from somewhere else.
You seem to have a very narrow mind set about sampling. It sound like you
think that when you sample a piece of a song you usually just loop it
over and over and keeping the original structure. That was more or less
right when hip-hop producers discovered the sampler, since they just
transformed what they did in the club or jam when they was limited to two
turntables.
But in recent years, people have sampled a piece and then chopped it up,
rearrange the structure and melody, just keeping the sampled artist’s
keystrokes and specific instrumentation. So IF you wanna attack hip-hop
for something on the musical front, I suggest that you raise the point of
the lack of traditional western instrumentation skills. We have skills on
our instruments (turntable & sampler), but we have very few (But there
are some) traditional western "musicians".
>Those people are not able to compose their OWN melodies.
We are able, but the foundation of hip-hop is a club where you just have
two turntables and a microphone... So, too gain respect within the
hip-hop community, you have to show your ability to use a pre-recorded
musical foundation and then do some lyrics from the top of your head.
This is what REAL hip-hop is all about.
But what you (anyone outside the hip-hop community) usually hear is what
the record company’s think a "white" mainstream audience wants.
Let’s talk a bout classical music. If you go to hear a concert and they
only perform the works of Mozart or Beethoven. Do you think that "Those
people (on stage) are not able to compose their OWN melodies" or do you
admire their instrumentation? Think about it... Then translate the same
type of thinking on to a hip-hop tune.
If a hip-hop song is what it should be, it will not only promote that
record but also the artist who they sampled.
As Stetsasonic said in the song "Talking All That Jazz":
Tell the truth, James Brown was old
'Til Eric and Rak' came out with 'I Got Soul'
Rap brings back old R&B and if we would not
People could have forgot
>Here is your list of samples showing that rappers are not able to
>COMPOSE good hooks by themselves.
Hold on! If you took you time to listen to some of those song’s you would
know that they samples was only a part of a new complex composition, and
not (except in some few cases) any part of the hook
My point with the list was to show the versatility in melody structure
and musical reign.
Broadcaster
<Pine.SOL.3.91.96032...@sunspot.ccs.yorku.ca>,
yu10...@yorku.ca says...
>
>On 26 Mar 1996, Broadcaster wrote:
>
>
>Cry" from the late great Bob Marley.
Well, he did the original song... But not the sampled one!
Geir Hongro
>You seem to have a very narrow mind set about sampling. It sound like you
>think that when you sample a piece of a song you usually just loop it
>over and over and keeping the original structure.
Of course you don't. You remove the most melodic structures and
what remains is SHIT!
>We have skills on
>our instruments (turntable & sampler),
Which are not instruments at all.....
but we have very few (But there
>are some) traditional western "musicians".
You have NO!
>We are able, but the foundation of hip-hop is a club where you just have
>two turntables and a microphone... So, too gain respect within the
>hip-hop community, you have to show your ability to use a pre-recorded
>musical foundation and then do some lyrics from the top of your head.
>This is what REAL hip-hop is all about.
And that's why it SUCKS!
>Let’s talk a bout classical music. If you go to hear a concert and they
>only perform the works of Mozart or Beethoven. Do you think that "Those
>people (on stage) are not able to compose their OWN melodies"
What I hear is the music of Mozart of Beethoven, not the music of
any Philharmonic Orchestra. The difference is Mozart and
Beethoven's music are put into paper in details so that it doesn't
matter who's playing them. It is first and foremost the music of
Mozart or Beethoven.
I also think it is okay making a cover version if they keep the
WHOLE tune, not turning it into a less melodic version.
>Hold on! If you took you time to listen to some of those song’s you would
>know that they samples was only a part of a new complex composition, and
>not (except in some few cases) any part of the hook
They are used in the chorus to make the song a little more melodic
just because the rappers aren't musical enough to write melodic
songs by themselves. The simply have no talent.
Geir Hongro
Broadcaster
>You remove the most melodic structures and
>what remains is SHIT!
Come on! We don’t REMOVE the MELODIC structure, we just RE-ARRANGE it! It
still has a melodic structure, even if your ear ain’t used to the
structure or the way we arrange it... You can’t say that it lacks a
melodic structure, but what you could say in some cases are that it has a
limited western melodic structure. But it’s all up to you if you like it
or not...
>>We have skills on our instruments (turntable & sampler),
>
>Which are not instruments at all.....
Why? Because they are electric? Because they where originally designed
for something else? If you don’t call the sampler a interment, then o/c a
electronic keyboard ain’t ether... The difference if that in the
traditional keyboard you are "locked" on using just a few prerecorded
sounds (that you o/c can alter...), but with the sampler you have the
freedom to use any sound at all. Have you heard a good DJ scratch?
He can use a record to produce the sounds of percussion, birds, basslines
etc. OK, sometime it might not be so easy on the ear (but most "indie
rock" just kills my ears!).
>>but we have very few (But there are some) traditional western
>>"musicians".
>
>You have NO!
How come then that Miles Davis used the group Rappin Is Fundamental and
it’s producer Easy Me Bee to PRODUCE his last album. There is tons of
hip-hop groups that use "traditional western "musicians"" and that
instrumentation. Just take a listen to groups like Boo Ya T.R.I.B.E. and
Roots.
>>two turntables and a microphone... So, too gain respect within the
>>hip-hop community, you have to show your ability to use a pre-recorded
>>musical foundation and then do some lyrics from the top of your head.
>>This is what REAL hip-hop is all about.
>
>And that's why it SUCKS!
Oh! I see, creativity sucks...?
>What I hear is the music of Mozart of Beethoven, not the music of
>any Philharmonic Orchestra. The difference is Mozart and
>Beethoven's music are put into paper in details so that it doesn't
>matter who's playing them. It is first and foremost the music of
>Mozart or Beethoven.
So in other words the MUSICIANS doesn’t count? Hip-hop is equally detail
arranged, but since you don’t except another culture than the ones that
you think you understand, it becomes obvious to me that this discussion
is pointless.
>I also think it is okay making a cover version if they keep the
>WHOLE tune, not turning it into a less melodic version.
Have about a travesty insteed of a cover?
>They are used in the chorus to make the song a little more melodic
>just because the rappers aren't musical enough to write melodic
>>songs by themselves. The simply have no talent.
In most cases it ain’t used in the chorus, but that’s what you hear since
people like you are working for the record company’s... People that don’t
understand the musical structure of hip-hop, but notice the impact that
it have so they force the artists to make one (by their standards)
traditional tune for the singles and radio. I think that if you bought or
borrowed a hip-hop album and skipped over the singles and just listen to
other tunes you would be fascinated to see a whole new musical world open
up!
But I guess that you are one of those that also say that anyone can do
modern art, it’s just dots and lines.. It’s no REAL painting - It doesn’t
look like anything!
Geir Hongro
>You can’t say that it lacks a
>melodic structure, but what you could say in some cases are that it has a
>limited western melodic structure. But it’s all up to you if you like it
>or not...
A so-called "melodic structure" is NOT melodic if it can't be
notated or played on a piano.
>>>We have skills on our instruments (turntable & sampler),
>>
>>Which are not instruments at all.....
>
>Why? Because they are electric?
No.
Because they where originally designed
>for something else?
Yes
>If you don’t call the sampler a interment
It is, if the sample is played on a keyboard afterwards
A record player or turntable is NOT and NEVER will be an
instrument.
>Have you heard a good DJ scratch?
It was fun the first 2 or 3 times, back in 1984 or something,now
it's BORING!!!!
>How come then that Miles Davis used the group Rappin Is Fundamental and
>it’s producer Easy Me Bee to PRODUCE his last album.
Miles Davis has, in lots of cases, got away from melodic
structures in his music, just like hip-hop-people.
What I am looking for is someone who writes songs like Lennon and
McCartney.
>There is tons of
>hip-hop groups that use "traditional western "musicians"" and that
>instrumentation. Just take a listen to groups like Boo Ya T.R.I.B.E. and
>Roots.
They don't write traditional western songs that can be notated or
played on a piano, that is the difference.
>In most cases it ain’t used in the chorus, but that’s what you hear since
>people like you are working for the record company’s... People that don’t
>understand the musical structure of hip-hop, but notice the impact that
>it have so they force the artists to make one (by their standards)
>traditional tune for the singles and radio. I think that if you bought or
>borrowed a hip-hop album and skipped over the singles and just listen to
>other tunes you would be fascinated to see a whole new musical world open
>up!
Personally I prefer someone who sings in the chorus rather than
someone who raps through the whole song. Still the only thing that
is good enough is someone who sings, in a melodic way, through the
whole song.
>But I guess that you are one of those that also say that anyone can do
>modern art, it’s just dots and lines..
Yes, I am
Geir Hongro
Morten Kollstrom
> Of course there will be a rap revival in some years time
Å faen er du *her* også???
Morten
GOD
>>You seem to have a very narrow mind set about sampling. It sound like you
>>think that when you sample a piece of a song you usually just loop it
>>over and over and keeping the original structure.
>what remains is SHIT!
So you are saying that at the root of every song beyond the
melody...which in your opinion is the most and only important
thing...is shit?...if that is so why don't they just make the song
with melody and not put all of that "shit" in there to begin with?...
>>We have skills on
>>our instruments (turntable & sampler),
>Which are not instruments at all.....
That is the same way musicians felt about the piano when it was first
invented...they said that since the pianist hit a key that in turn
made a hammer hit a string it was not a true instrument where the
musician actually "makes the sound happen"...
An instrument is anything that you can use to make music with...be it
a trashcan or a guitar...or a guitar against a trashcan! ;)...the
sampler is one of the greatest instruments ever made...
>>We are able, but the foundation of hip-hop is a club where you just have
>>two turntables and a microphone... So, too gain respect within the
>>hip-hop community, you have to show your ability to use a pre-recorded
>>musical foundation and then do some lyrics from the top of your head.
>>This is what REAL hip-hop is all about.
>And that's why it SUCKS!
Why does it suck for someone to show their lyrical and mental ability
by spouting things off the top of their head?...that same quick wit is
what makes a good comic...or do you just have a prob with pre-recorded
music?...the point of rap in the first part is what the rapper is
saying...that means that the rapper has to have a steady base upon
which to lay his rhyme...and the dj doesn't just let the record
play...he mixes his own groove into the song...
>>Let’s talk a bout classical music. If you go to hear a concert and they
>>only perform the works of Mozart or Beethoven. Do you think that "Those
>>people (on stage) are not able to compose their OWN melodies"
>What I hear is the music of Mozart of Beethoven, not the music of
>any Philharmonic Orchestra. The difference is Mozart and
>Beethoven's music are put into paper in details so that it doesn't
>matter who's playing them. It is first and foremost the music of
>Mozart or Beethoven.
Classical music...just like a play, or a story, or a ballet, or an
opera...is left to interpretation...no orchestra will play the same
piece exactly the same...and I am sure that the composer never
intended that they all play the same...
>>Hold on! If you took you time to listen to some of those song’s you would
>>know that they samples was only a part of a new complex composition, and
>>not (except in some few cases) any part of the hook
>They are used in the chorus to make the song a little more melodic
>just because the rappers aren't musical enough to write melodic
>songs by themselves. The simply have no talent.
I can't really think of any rap songs that depended soley on melodies
that they sampled for the music...sampling is an art...not everyone
can do it with the same ability...
Can you seriously tell me that if a rapper made up the entire song
behind his music...which most if not all do already...that you would
give him respect?...
GOD
I AM NOT THE REAL GOD
DO NOT WORSHIP ME
Xavier Mandeng
Geir Hongro <hon...@www.uio.no> wrote:
>Of course you don't. You remove the most melodic structures and
>what remains is SHIT!
Who are you kidding . . . you heard one cheesy little track and you claim to
be an expert.
>>We have skills on
>>our instruments (turntable & sampler),
>
>Which are not instruments at all.....
Agreed, so what! Welcome to 1996 . . . as the years go on it's only going to
get worse. I play the cello. I dj. Cello - instrument. Technics 1200 and GLI
mixer - not instruments. Cello beautiful. Turntables beautiful. Different
asthetic (sp?). So where is the debate.
>>We are able, but the foundation of hip-hop is a club where you just have
>>two turntables and a microphone... So, too gain respect within the
>>hip-hop community, you have to show your ability to use a pre-recorded
>>musical foundation and then do some lyrics from the top of your head.
>>This is what REAL hip-hop is all about.
>
>And that's why it SUCKS!
Then what do you want?
>>Let’s talk a bout classical music. If you go to hear a concert and they
>>only perform the works of Mozart or Beethoven. Do you think that "Those
>>people (on stage) are not able to compose their OWN melodies"
>
>What I hear is the music of Mozart of Beethoven, not the music of
>any Philharmonic Orchestra. The difference is Mozart and
>Beethoven's music are put into paper in details so that it doesn't
>matter who's playing them. It is first and foremost the music of
>Mozart or Beethoven.
If Mozart and Beethoven were alive today, neither would be making classical
music. Mozart was a maverick, not a establishment member. Todays mavericks,
well some of them are in hip hop. Some of them are in jazz studios. Some of
them produce trance. Some of them just putz around. . . Few of them are holier
than thou.
>I also think it is okay making a cover version if they keep the
>WHOLE tune, not turning it into a less melodic version.
I don't. Now what?
>>Hold on! If you took you time to listen to some of those song’s you would
>>know that they samples was only a part of a new complex composition, and
>>not (except in some few cases) any part of the hook
>
>They are used in the chorus to make the song a little more melodic
>just because the rappers aren't musical enough to write melodic
>songs by themselves. The simply have no talent.
Are you OK? You seem very bitter against the hip hop scene.
Thanks for convincing me.
The end.
Max
--
- Xavier Mandeng
x...@acpub.duke.edu
yusuf mustopa
: andrea...@mailbox.swipnet.se (Broadcaster) wrote:
: >We have skills on
: >our instruments (turntable & sampler),
: Which are not instruments at all.....
Either you've never heard a sumptuous scratch solo, or you're
a bit narrow-minded about the definition of 'instrument'.
: They are used in the chorus to make the song a little more melodic
: just because the rappers aren't musical enough to write melodic
: songs by themselves. The simply have no talent.
If their intent is to write great rhymes and back them up with
great beats, rather than to write melodic songs, you can't say a damn thing.
You know, I'd like to line up all these people who say that rap takes
no talent, have 'em each record a rhyme, play it back alongside, say, a Puba
track...and ask them if they STILL think it takes no talent...
Yusuf
Geir Hongro
>If Mozart and Beethoven were alive today, neither would be making classical
>music.
I agree, but they would not be making hip-hop either. Mozart is
one of the best ones ever when it comes to the use of MELODY and
HARMONY. I guess if he lived today he would be today's Lennon or
McCartney
Barry Young
: >You can’t say that it lacks a
: >melodic structure, but what you could say in some cases are that it has a
: >limited western melodic structure. But it’s all up to you if you like it
: >or not...
: A so-called "melodic structure" is NOT melodic if it can't be
: notated or played on a piano.
So you're saying that the the music of some African and Asian cultures is
not melodic as it can't be notated/played on the piano as they have a
different frequency interval between notes (ie, not 1 semitone between
adjacent notes)? Interesting. Where did you find this definition?
--
/************************************************************************\
|* Barry Young [ byo...@plato.wadham.ox.ac.uk ] *|
|* Wadham College [ http://www.wadham.ox.ac.uk/~byoung ] *|
|* Oxford Check out the unofficial Black Grape Home Page: *|
|* OX1 3PN [ http://www.wadham.ox.ac.uk/~byoung/BlackGrape ] *|
\************************************************************************/
michael taylor
>
>andrea...@mailbox.swipnet.se (Broadcaster) wrote:
>
>>You seem to have a very narrow mind set about sampling. It sound like
you
>>think that when you sample a piece of a song you usually just loop it
>>over and over and keeping the original structure.
>
>Of course you don't. You remove the most melodic structures and
>what remains is SHIT!
But then again, the above comment discounts most non-western musical
forms. You are being very narrow minded, most of the worlds music does
not rely on melody, most of it is Harmony and Rhythm. Besides is a
strong melody the end all, be all of music, its the late 20th century,
western music has been fortuate to be able to break out of the tonal
strait jacket the tradition music has put us in. we, as artists, should
be looking to the future, not clutching the past. It might not be your
personal form music, but at least it is exloratory, and it will evolve
into something different, and perhaps better<depending on personal
taste>.
>
>>We have skills on
>>our instruments (turntable & sampler),
>
>Which are not instruments at all.....
well, they produce musical sound, and they perform a task, so by both
definitions of an instrument<as a sound making device, or as an object
that does a task>, theFrom: chr...@ix.netcom.com(michael taylor )
Newsgroups: alt.music.techno,alt.rap,rec.music.techno,alt.music.alternative
Subject: Re: A good old-fashioned tune never goes out of fashion. Rap and techno are going to die!!!!!
References: <4i6bhn$1...@ratatosk.uio.no> <4i6n9t$r...@news2.toronto.istar.net> <4i9vno$6...@news.ios.com> <4iec03$h...@mo6.rc.tudelft.nl> <4ijuai$8...@news2.toronto.istar.net> <4ikhti$6...@news.ios.com> <4imb6l$o...@nms.telepost.no> <4irfgn$i...@mn5.swip.net> <4iu1sc$h...@nms.telepost.no> <4j5s5j$d...@mn5.swip.net> <4j8pqa$8...@nms.telepost.no> <4j92pn$o...@mn5.swip.net> <4ja12k$h...@nms.telepost.no> <4jatd3$n...@mn5.swip.net> <4jdi9p$f...@nms.telepost.no>
In <4jdi9p$f...@nms.telepost.no> Geir Hongro <hon...@www.uio.no> writes:
>
>andrea...@mailbox.swipnet.se (Broadcaster) wrote:
>
>>You seem to have a very narrow mind set about sampling. It sound like
you
>>think that when you sample a piece of a song you usually just loop it
>>over and over and keeping the original structure.
>
>Of course you don't. You remove the most melodic structures and
>what remains is SHIT!
But then again, the above comment discounts most non-western musical
forms. You are being very narrow minded, most of the worlds music does
not rely on melody, most of it is Harmony and Rhythm. Besides is a
strong melody the end all, be all of music, its the late 20th century,
western music has been fortuate to be able to break out of the tonal
strait jacket the tradition music has put us in. we, as artists, should
be looking to the future, not clutching the past. It might not be your
personal form music, but at least it is exloratory, and it will evolve
into something different, and perhaps better<depending on personal
taste>.
>
>>We have skills on
>>our instruments (turntable & sampler),
>
>Which are not instruments at all.....
well, they produce musical sound, and they perform a task, so by both
definitions of an instrument<as a sound making device, or as an object
that does a task>, therated recording medium
that has been replaced by the magnetic/digital mediums of today.
Besides, notation is not all that precise, western notation can only
approximate many rhythms, and certinly not record them precisely. Thats
why conductors are so important, they decide how the notation
ambigueties should be interpreted, the way conductors conduct a
symphony could vastly differ from the way Wagner or Bach intended them.
Thats why a recording of something composed today, under the authority
of the composer, would be far closer to the composers vision, than a
piece of notation 250 years old. When you listen to Bach's notation,
how can you be sure thats how he envisioned it, you can't. Thats why
modern concrete recordings are far superior to sheet music, the sheet
music is ambigous, the recording isn't.
>
>I also think it is okay making a cover version if they keep the
>WHOLE tune, not turning it into a less melodic version.
>
>>Hold on! If you took you time to listen to some of those song’s you
would
>>know that they samples was only a part of a new complex composition,
and
>>not (except in some few cases) any part of the hook
>
>They are used in the chorus to make the song a little more melodic
>just because the rappers aren't musical enough to write melodic
>songs by themselves. The simply have no talent.
I have to agree there, I hate it when the best part of a rap song is an
old motown loop from 30 years ago. Producers need to start writing more
of their own music.
Thats all I have to say for the moment.
Very Truly Yours
Michael/Detroit
Broadcaster
>>You can’t say that it lacks a melodic structure, but what you could say
>>in some cases are that it has a limited western melodic structure. But
>>it’s all up to you if you like it or not...
>
>A so-called "melodic structure" is NOT melodic if it can't be
>notated or played on a piano.
Wow! There was no melodc structures before the invention of the piano and
deffenetly no one before the invention of "notes"! Damn, I must have been
sleeping on my music classes or maybe that was so long ago that the
teachers hadn’t been enlighten about this!!!
>>>>We have skills on our instruments (turntable & sampler),
>>>
>>>Which are not instruments at all.....
>>
>>Because they where originally designed for something else?
>
>Yes
So a instrument HAS to be designed for the sole purpose of create music,
other wise you cant use it or it’s not excepted... So the "oil-drums"
that they use in the Caribbean ain’t instruments. I mean they where
originally oil barrels, right? (I know there is much more
non-"instruments").
>A record player or turntable is NOT and NEVER will be an
>instrument.
The world IS flat and will NEVER be round, right?
>>Have you heard a good DJ scratch?
>
>It was fun the first 2 or 3 times, back in 1984 or something,now
>it's BORING!!!!
1984 to 1996, that’s 12 years of exeprice and technic progress...
>What I am looking for is someone who writes songs like Lennon and
>McCartney.
You don’t like looking at the clock do you? But times passes by... If
Lennon & McCartney would have written the songs they did in 1910, I guess
people like you would have dismissed it as noise etc.
>>There is tons of hip-hop groups that use "traditional western
>>"musicians"" and that instrumentation. Just take a listen to groups
>>like Boo Ya T.R.I.B.E. and Roots.
>
>They don't write traditional western songs that can be notated or
>played on a piano, that is the difference.
Oh man, you DON’T know anything about hip-hop do you? They do, they use
keyboards, strings, guitars, hornsections, all that! As an example I
recite from the innersleve of Boo Ya T.R.I.B.E.’s album "New Funky
Nation" (4th & Broadway) from 1990.
MUSICIANS:
Myles John O’Brien: Bass, Guitar, Drum Programing.
Kenny Villeneuve: Lead & Rhythm Guitar
Sugar Pop: Guitar, Keyboard
Philip Nowlan: Wener Ladder, Organ, Percussion
Angle Luis Figera: Congas
Barry Becket: Organ
Andy "Funky Drummer" Kravitz: Percussion
Danny "OMD" Devoux: Bass, Lead & Rhythm Guitar
HORN SECTION:
Fernando Pullum: Arranger & Trumpet
Reginald Young: Trombone
Scott Mayo: Tenor Sax
>Still the only thing that is good enough is someone who sings, in a
>melodic way, through the whole song.
What about Instrumentals? Anyway, there is rappers out there who harmonic
and raps in a very melodic way, but I guess you haven't taken the time to
find out any fact before you make your mind up...
>>But I guess that you are one of those that also say that anyone can do
>>modern art, it’s just dots and lines..
>
>Yes, I am
Case closed!
Peace.
Broadcaster D.
Wax crackers Ink & Underground Productions (Sweden).
Steve_Coletti
Please break the spam and keep your petty squables out of
alt.rock-n-roll.oldies. Thank you.
--
< ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^>
< "Big Steve" Coletti >
< Computer and Network Installation, Upgrades and Repair. >
< Internet: bigs...@dorsai.org ==== S.COL...@genie.geis.com >
< Where is Bubbles McAfee when we really need her? >
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PeteGroove
the LARGE world of rap/hip-hop from The Last Poets and some Gil Scott
Heron stuff to the Roots today. Musicians making good sounds, intelligent
words, and ignoring those who would write off a whole type of expression
because of a thick head.
Peace
Petegroove
Geir Hongro
> You know, I'd like to line up all these people who say that rap takes
>no talent, have 'em each record a rhyme, play it back alongside, say, a Puba
>track...and ask them if they STILL think it takes no talent...
It takes talent, in the lyrical sense, but not MUSICAL talent.
There have been a lot of great rap lyrics, but I give a damn about
the lyrics, the point is MUSIC.
pete23
: Of course you don't. You remove the most melodic structures and
: what remains is SHIT!
Remove most melodic structures and strip down to funk image.
: >We have skills on
: >our instruments (turntable & sampler),
: Which are not instruments at all.....
My define of instrument; something used to produce a sound with the intent
of making music.
#define music as that which someone actually listens to, because they like it.
Cut it up. Reduce the power of the word/music virus.
: but we have very few (But there
: >are some) traditional western "musicians".
: You have NO!
I have YES!
<snip>
: And that's why it SUCKS!
Constructive criticism.
<snip>
: I also think it is okay making a cover version if they keep the
: WHOLE tune, not turning it into a less melodic version.
Can we not recycle old grooves and reintegrate them in a new, more exciting
form? Are we not *allowed*? And is this man a mindless troll? And does he
lack any conception of da phunk?
I have YES!
Respect to the sampling|recycling massive. Cut up thought forms.
: The[y... meaning hip-hop bods, nohdubt] simply have no talent.
And you are a regressive influence, Meester Hongro. May your afterlife consist
solely of repetitive phat beats and the tortured vocal snippets of the infernal
orchestra. May your loins wither and bear only diseased, mutated fruit.
And may your NNTP server start eating your worthless posts.
: Geir Hongro
I remain, in eclectica,
--
pete23, reality on demand
"eyes twitch retain a sentimental something"
Geir Hongro
>So you are saying that at the root of every song beyond the
>melody...which in your opinion is the most and only important
>thing...is shit?...if that is so why don't they just make the song
>with melody and not put all of that "shit" in there to begin with?...
The better songwriters start by composing the melody on a piano or
guitar, and arrange it afterwards. It is a bit boring if the song
is played just backed by guitar or piano, but still the melody
(and the harmonies behind it) is the most important part of every
pop song, without it nothing is left.
>An instrument is anything that you can use to make music with...be it
>a trashcan or a guitar...or a guitar against a trashcan! ;)...the
>sampler is one of the greatest instruments ever made...
The sampler, at least when played tonally on a keyboard, IS an
instrument. On the other hand it is NOT an instrument when you use
it to play back long pre-recorded sequences of old songs.
The record turntable is NO instrument, whatever you say...
>the point of rap in the first part is what the rapper is
>saying...that means that the rapper has to have a steady base upon
>which to lay his rhyme...
That means that it would have been better if he released a
collection of poems instead.....
>Can you seriously tell me that if a rapper made up the entire song
>behind his music...which most if not all do already...that you would
>give him respect?...
If it has melody - Yes! I respect Neneh Cherry because both
"Manchild" and "Seven Seconds" had good melodies, not stolen from
somewhere else.....
Geir Hongro
>Wow! There was no melodc structures before the invention of the piano and
>deffenetly no one before the invention of "notes"! Damn, I must have been
>sleeping on my music classes or maybe that was so long ago that the
>teachers hadn’t been enlighten about this!!!
Of course there was. The invention of notes was based on existing
melodic structures.
>So a instrument HAS to be designed for the sole purpose of create music,
>other wise you cant use it or it’s not excepted... So the "oil-drums"
>that they use in the Caribbean ain’t instruments. I mean they where
>originally oil barrels, right? (I know there is much more
>non-"instruments").
They have been rebuilt and changed into instruments.
>You don’t like looking at the clock do you? But times passes by... If
>Lennon & McCartney would have written the songs they did in 1910, I guess
>people like you would have dismissed it as noise etc.
People may make as much noise as they want to, but I want a piece
of melody on top of the noise.
>Oh man, you DON’T know anything about hip-hop do you? They do, they use
>keyboards, strings, guitars, hornsections, all that!
But you can't play the rap part on those instruments, they are
just part of the backing track.
Geir Hongro
Geir Hongro
>So you're saying that the the music of some African and Asian cultures is
>not melodic as it can't be notated/played on the piano as they have a
>different frequency interval between notes (ie, not 1 semitone between
>adjacent notes)? Interesting. Where did you find this definition?
Hip-hop started in America which is definitely part of the Western
culture. The Indian or Pakistani cultures have their own notation
systems and if you tune a piano the right way it may play
Indian/Pakistani music as well.
Anyway a piano may never play TALK, alas talk is NOT music.
kari orr
geir
please define what you think rap is?
and what you base your definition on.
i'm having a hard time pin pointing what you don't like
about rap music. and also what you find enjoyable in music in
general. if you specifically like the melody of a song, and thus
define music as arrangement of sound with melody i can understand
the question then becomes, do you enjoy a traditional artist that
doesn't employ melody. if you are listening to a max roach cd
(a noted jazz drummer) do you not enjoy his solos? are you paying more
attention to the efforts of the bassist or horn section? were max just
to do a drum track, with nothing else accompanying it would you still
classify it as music?
i don't think you dislike rap for a specific quantifiable reason, i think
you dislike rap for no particular reason. if the latter is true
everyone can stop arguing, if the former is true we can continue.
if the former is true, let us present to you a circumstance that
fits your criteria. But you must first come to a conclusion about
what you specifically dislike about rap. If you can't decide
that for yourself, then we have no need to continue this post which
is wasting bandwidth in the other music groups.
your ball
kari orr
house of phat beats
h3...@unb.ca
>From: bigs...@dorsai.org (Steve_Coletti)
>Subject: Re: A good old-fashioned tune never goes out of fashion. Rap and techno are going to die!!!!!
FUCK YOU STEVE
h3...@unb.ca
>From: h3...@unb.ca
>Subject: Re: A good old-fashioned tune never goes out of fashion. Rap and techno are going to die!!!!!
>FUCK YOU STEVE
BITCH!!!
Broadcaster
>>other wise you cant use it or it’s not excepted... So the "oil-drums"
>>that they use in the Caribbean ain’t instruments. I mean they where
>>originally oil barrels, right? (I know there is much more
>>non-"instruments").
>
>They have been rebuilt and changed into instruments.
So if someone uses a NON "rebuilt & changed" oil barrel he/she ain't
using a instrument? The turntables have been "changed"... You have a
needle that alows you to play the record back & forth, you have the pitch
controll, sipmats and the additional use of a mixer!
>>Oh man, you DON’T know anything about hip-hop do you? They do, they use
>>keyboards, strings, guitars, hornsections, all that!
>
>But you can't play the rap part on those instruments, they are
>just part of the backing track.
What "rap part"? Wasn't you talking about the melody, NOT the lyrical
content? What "backing track"? Is the entire music piece behind the
vocalist just a backing track? What I was talking about was the ENTIRE
MUSIC behind the vocalist, call it backing track or the instrumental song
or what ever... But it is all live and NEW in many, many cases!!!
----
In a reply to Bla...@tamu.edu (GOD) you wrote:
>The better songwriters start by composing the melody on a piano or
>guitar, and arrange it afterwards.
Sounds just like the way some hip-hop producers do!
>It is a bit boring if the song is played just backed by guitar or piano
So you don’t like soloists then...?
>but still the melody (and the harmonies behind it) is the most important
>part of every pop song, without it nothing is left.
IMO that makes a pop tune weak! If a tune depends so heavily on ONE
thing, then it’s badly structured as a complete tune. In a hip-hop song
you can take out what ever you like, and you’ll still have a hip-hop
track... Hell, in some cases you can just leave ONE thing (NOT a specific
thing, but one of all the instruments used in the song) and it will still
be hip-hop.
>The sampler, at least when played tonally on a keyboard, IS an
>instrument. On the other hand it is NOT an instrument when you use
>it to play back long pre-recorded sequences of old songs.
"play back long pre-recorded" I understand that you haven’t been
listening to hip-hop the last years. More and more producers just takes
second short snip’s that they re-PLAY!
Your IS and NOT just sounds like "A stove IS a food tool when you’re
using frying-pan and meat, but NOT when you boil a chicken"! If you use
it as a musical "sound provider" then it IS a instrument no matter if you
do it in a easy way or not.
But to take you out of your belief that hip-hopers only take "long
re-recorded", I advice you to take a listen to Sir Mix-A-Lot’s stuff. He
has in some since the same attitude to the sampler as you, he NEVER just
re-play a sample, but ALWAYS manipulate it and create new sounds that he
PLAYS "tonally on a keyboard". Still what he does classifies as hip-hop!
----
In a reply to byo...@plato.wadham.ox.ac.uk (Barry Young) you wrote:
>Hip-hop started in America which is definitely part of the Western
>culture.
But what America? The rich, wealthy, healthy, powerful white? Or the
poor, sick and oppressed Afro-American/Hispanic minority... I think there
is a HUGH difference...
>Anyway a piano may never play TALK, alas talk is NOT music.
You NEVER heard a GOOD pianist, that’s for sure!!!
Peace.
Broadcaster D.
Wax Crackers Ink & Underground Productions (Sweden).
Steve_Coletti
>>> Please break the spam and keep your petty squables out of
>>>alt.rock-n-roll.oldies. Thank you.
>
>
>BITCH!!!
Gentelmen,
Since you obviously have no manners nor the ability to understand the
proper words of the English language I guess I must stoop to your level to
make you understand.
Next time you're marching in a parade may the guion holder trip and ream
you a third asshole, we all know where your second asshole is.
Speaking about your mouth, you have no taste, what happened? Did you
loose it from getting gonnorea of the throat?
--
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