The US concept of Northern Soul vs. UK Northern Soul reality.
Janos Czifra
I decided to cross-post this one, since I like what being posted
on both groups. alt.music.soul, seems to have a lot of UK soulies,
so maybe this little controversy may be cleared up or a long
ensuing debate may be started.
I'll start by quoting "Rob The Mod" in alt.music.ska:
Rob the Mod
mod...@worldnet.att.net
Allez Cats SC.
First Scooter Club in the Second City.
There's three members left and that's mighty shitty.
> But, there is a certain sound that they went for. Believe me not every
> soul bad could fit into the Northern Soul Category. You should see it
> in Germany when some DJ would break out his new finds. If it didn't fit
> into the style than most everyone would sit that one out, which proved
> embarrassing for the dj. There were a couple distinct sounds they went
> for. Northern Soul, unlike Motown or Chess, was never (until the 80's)
> made. In other words, there were no Northern Soul bands that went out
> to fabricate the northern soul sound. It was all of what the scene
> accepted and thought had that sound. Now later, there were Northern
> Soul bands, they were all never too hot.
Question: Is there a "Northern Soul" sound??
I think there isn't, but then again I'm not sure, since I'm not a
citizen of the UK. From what I gather though, Northern Soul
is a term used by folks to describe soul listeners in the Northern
regions of the UK. I know there being a rivalry between those
in the Northern regions of the country vs. those in London. Even
during the 60's one can pick up early live recordings of British
r&b acts like The Animals who hail from Newcastle on the Tyne
where they'd poke fun against acts from the London area. Eric
Bourdon quoted as saying during a show "I'm gonna cut me hair
like the Rolling Stones (Londoners)" and there was laughter
followed by whistling (equivalent to booing in the States). I think
that Northern Soul started off embracing the clean styles of
Motown, but as those became popular and widespread, the
more it was necessary to find rare sides (Brunswick , Buddah, Pye,
and Vee Jay) and to play the more harder edged material
such as Stax and Volt.
Basically Northern Soul listeners were those who entrenched
themselves in rare soul, r&b, etc., rather than following the
trends of the times as their Southern Soul counterparts, who
more or less moved on to progressive rock/ pyschedelia and
what have you.
This also, ironically, coincides with the Mod / Hard Mod /
Skinhead morph that also takes place in the mid to late 60's.
quoting Alan Guest in alt.music.ska:
> I just meant to make the point to the rest of the NG that it aint always
> possible to pigeonhole music - one man's northern is just another man's
> soul (or even rhythm & blues if it's really old!). I don't think the
> original soulies were that elitist to dimiss a good sound on the grounds
> of its creator. They had Jackie Wilson and Edwin Starr played at Wigan
> and I'd wouldn't call them unknowns. What they did do was to judge music
> on its merits and not on the artist/label/fashionability. I wouldn't
> agree that it was all about obscurity - the music still had to be good.
> With the particular pool of recordings they selected their sounds from
> made the sounds obscure by default.
>
> Northern Soul is one of the few unbastardized styles in Britain, mainly
> because it didn't originate in the South East/London area. When the
> "Madchester" scene evolved in the late eighties, it was compared to the
> Northern Soul scene and people said it would disappear quickly as the
> media wasn't interested in movements outside the London area.
> Everybody had heard of it when I was growing up. Very few actually knew
> what it was, myself included.
I can agree with that.
Also here's something I found on a Northern Soul Page
http://www.koan.de/~mickfitz/barframe.htm
that may peak some interest and comments.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
A guy called Steve Sales sent this paper to me. A Dr Brookes wrote it. It
is in response to something Dr Brookes read in a magazine. You may or may
not agree with his hypotheses but it does make interesting reading and
keeps in the style of 'The Night Owl' looking at the Northern Soul scene
from every angle. These are Dr Brooke's words:
I put forward the hypotheses there are four classes or types on the
Northern Soul Scene, which are as follows
The sub-class
This class of person is not a soul fan; they became involved with the
Northern soul scene during the hey-days of 1975-79. The sub-class is often
referred to as " plastic-soulies " having no real passion for the music.
The plastic-soulies are part of the soul scene because of social ties.
They will have friends who belong to the other classes of persons on the
scene. The majority of this sub-class left the Northern soul scene when
other musical styles became popular.
Class one (the soul fan)
The Soul Fan is driven by the love of the "sound". The Soul Fan loves to
listen to the sound irrespective of the medium. The Soul Fan does not care
if the medium is original vinyl, pressing, CD, etc The soul fan will have
a collection that will contain the sounds on many medium. Because it is
the love of the sound that is the driving force not the love of a
particular medium. The Soul Fan may sell a favourite sound that is on an
original label, because it is available on CD and with the extra money
he/she can purchase more CD's or pressings or originals containing other
loved sounds. Therefore driven by the love of soul music, the original is
sold to be replaced by more sounds.
Class two
This is the overlap class; Some Soul Fans are also Original Soul Record
Collectors. Both the love of soul music and the love of collecting
original soul records drive them. This Class of person will have more
conflict in his/her purchasing i.e. to buy the three pressings or the
original? This Class may replace pressings as and when they can get hold
of the original records. There is a tendency though in this class to be
influenced by the third class in their purchasing practices.
Class Three (the original soul record collector)
The Original Soul Record Collector this is the elitist class, this class
do not belong to the class of Soul Fans, they are not soul fans . They are
not driven by the love of soul music. But by the love of collecting (viz.
soul records). This class comes over as "snobs" as regard to soul records
and may well refuse to own pressings or CDs. This class once belonged to
the second class but have lost sight of the nature of soul music and have
been caught up by pride and vanity. They love nothing better than telling
you the value of a record and how few copies exist. Contrast the Soul Fan
who loves nothing better than listening to the record and loves to play
them for you too.
respect,
John
(Class Two Soul Fan)
BPII
Janos Czifra wrote:
>
> I decided to cross-post this one, since I like what being posted
> on both groups. alt.music.soul, seems to have a lot of UK soulies,
> so maybe this little controversy may be cleared up or a long
> ensuing debate may be started.
>
> Question: Is there a "Northern Soul" sound??
>
> I think there isn't, but then again I'm not sure, since I'm not a
> citizen of the UK. From what I gather though, Northern Soul
> is a term used by folks to describe soul listeners in the Northern
> regions of the UK.
(Snip)
Correct
> I think that Northern Soul started off embracing the clean styles of
> Motown, but as those became popular and widespread, the
> more it was necessary to find rare sides
You forget though, at that point the motown sound was the trend, via the
popularity of the mod movement, After the mod thing died out the
Northerners turned to another style.
> This also, ironically, coincides with the Mod / Hard Mod /
> Skinhead morph that also takes place in the mid to late 60's.
I had to snip a lot of that. I saw a lot of the scene during the huge
revival in Germany. I got to meet a lot of DJ's British and German.
Just like in the ska scene there are definitely different camps about
what is NS. In my opinion, there was a sound. The motown stuff was too
popular. Not saying it wasn't good. And they were very opinionated
about what a good sound would be. There were many different sounds per
se. But, they were all specific on what was or wasn't. The two I
narrowed down was from these"expert" were the later motown sort of stuff
("Ghost In My House", "Band Of GOld") and the harder Edwin Starr style.
Just because it was good did not make it NS.
That's my opinion.
Last of the Hep White Boys,
BPII
Alan Guest wrote:
>
> If you made a family tree of sub-cultures (as was done in a book called
> StreetStyle which Rob mentioned) and extended it to show the social
> class of people in those sub-cultures it would show that higher classes
> have always progressed and evolved into totally new groups and the lower
> classes have just modified existing groups. I think the upwardly mobile
> mods evolved into the psychedelics and hippies whilst the more
> downwardly mobile (and possibly the bigger lovers of black music)
> modified the style into skinhead and Northern Soul. Nowadays the scooter
> scene has a mixture of both skinhead reggae/ska and Northern soul music
> and is todays manifestation of the same sub-group. Anybody agree with
> that?
No, not really. In many circumstances the mods embraced the black style
more than others. Even in England Black music was taboo. Not just in
the US. It is evident when you look the cleaned up rock and roll -
style stuff that English pop artists tried to put out. The trendy-mods
went for the hippie stuff. The Who was about what??? Maximum RnB. It
could be compared to Elvis making RnB more accessable to the whites in
America. Mods were not thought of as clean cut. Don't forget Mods were
listening to ska before the skins were around. A lot of todays skins in
Europe would probably be considered Suedeheads.
Last of the Hep White Boys,
Alan Guest
Janos Czifra <janos-...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Question: Is there a "Northern Soul" sound??
>
> I think there isn't, but then again I'm not sure, since I'm not a
> citizen of the UK. From what I gather though, Northern Soul
> is a term used by folks to describe soul listeners in the Northern
> regions of the UK. I know there being a rivalry between those
> in the Northern regions of the country vs. those in London. Even
> during the 60's one can pick up early live recordings of British
> r&b acts like The Animals who hail from Newcastle on the Tyne
> where they'd poke fun against acts from the London area. Eric
> Bourdon quoted as saying during a show "I'm gonna cut me hair
> like the Rolling Stones (Londoners)" and there was laughter
> followed by whistling (equivalent to booing in the States).
I don't think that's a 60s thing. Northerners still poke fun at
Southerners (and vice versa) and I think it did have a lot to do with
Northerners being different types of people. It seems from what I've
read that the Northerners decided they still liked the old stuff and
didn't want to progress (as you say below). They just wanted more
mileage out of the old stuff.
> I think
> that Northern Soul started off embracing the clean styles of
> Motown, but as those became popular and widespread, the
> more it was necessary to find rare sides (Brunswick , Buddah, Pye,
> and Vee Jay) and to play the more harder edged material
> such as Stax and Volt.
> Basically Northern Soul listeners were those who entrenched
> themselves in rare soul, r&b, etc., rather than following the
> trends of the times as their Southern Soul counterparts, who
> more or less moved on to progressive rock/ pyschedelia and
> what have you.
>
> This also, ironically, coincides with the Mod / Hard Mod /
> Skinhead morph that also takes place in the mid to late 60's.
If you made a family tree of sub-cultures (as was done in a book called
Janos Czifra
BPII <"you must be kidding"@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
<68po1b$o...@mtinsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
<snip>
> No, not really. In many circumstances the mods embraced the black style
> more than others. Even in England Black music was taboo. Not just in
> the US.
I really doubt that, otherwise there would of been no
"British Invasion". The influx of black music to the
Northern regions of the UK and Ireland, where generally
there are more working class folk, than in the pockets
of London, via blues, jazz, & r&b was what made black
music popular in the UK. Blues & r&b, especially, were
dying forms of music, with the advent of rock-n-roll, and
American blacks of the late 50's - early 60's wanted
nothing to do with the blues anymore.
The working class youth of the UK & Ireland, at the time
could identify with the themes of blues songs and adored
blues greats. The popularity was such that blues artists
found new life in the UK and did tours, with emerging
bands as The Animals, The Yardbirds, and John Mayall.
Many blues artists found their way on to national TV in
the UK. Top of the Pops and Ready Steady Go.
I'd say that's far from taboo.
> It is evident when you look the cleaned up rock and roll -
> style stuff that English pop artists tried to put out.
There were many great songs put out in that era 64-67.
US artists couldn't get a word in edge wise, except for
Motown. Granted there were some crappy stuff, but all
in all the "pop" sound from the UK was a result of many
bands writing their own material. Listen to early Rolling
Stones, Animals, and Yardbirds recording and then listen
to them when they gained some fame.
Big difference in style from bands who were obsessed
with blues music, in the beginning.
> The trendy-mods
> went for the hippie stuff. The Who was about what??? Maximum RnB. It
> could be compared to Elvis making RnB more accessable to the whites in
> America.
The Who was a big marketing ploy
by their record label to cash in on
this new "Mod" craze. I like them,
but don't consider them "Mod". They
were a slightly toned down version
of the Small Faces, until they started
smashing instruments on TV shows.
respect,
John
Brian Poust
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, BPII wrote:
> No, not really. In many circumstances the mods embraced the black style
> more than others. Even in England Black music was taboo. Not just in
> the US. It is evident when you look the cleaned up rock and roll -
> style stuff that English pop artists tried to put out. The trendy-mods
> went for the hippie stuff.
Uh, no. This is not exactly correct. There was certainly an influence
from both American black music and the West Indies community, and maybe
I'm not understanding your point fully, but who are you considering
"trendy-mods"? Who I think of "tickets" or "trendy-mods" ended up as
skinheads, or dropped it altogether and melded back in the status-quo of
British life as usual.
Of the musical groups that encompassed the mod scene a very very few
became hippe bands, and those who did, did so moving into the early '70's.
John's Children moved into T. Rex and Jook, neither of whom were hippie
bands. The In Crowd morphed into Tomorrow, a psych band. the Birds sent
members to the Faces and the Creation. Other late 60's bands with earlier
mod leanings were Brian Auger & the Trinity (who walked a thin line by the
time 1969 rolled around but were still heavily rooted in organ driven
soul/jazz), The Smoke, The End, Small Faces (the Immediate era as opposed
to Decca), David Bowie (Deram years), the Action did a psych album too.
None of them were rooted in the U.S. west coast hippie sound (save the
Eyes of Blue, who first did two AMAZING soul 45'sfor Deram in '67).
British psych was a much much different animal in the beginning.
The above groups were what the mods of the later 60's listened to as well
as soul and jazz. Deram's a great label to mention here if for no other
reason than the fact that it was Deram, a UK label, that really broke the
Flirtations "Nothing But A Heartache" in '68, which is still a mod
favorite to this day.
>The Who was about what??? Maximum RnB.
and by 1966, the Who denounced the mod scene. Not that they weren't a
great band straight up to "Tommy", but not a great band to make points
about the mod scene with. Not to mention the Who played Woodstock, while
Daltrey wore fringed vests, bellbottoms and had that god-awful hair.
>Mods were not thought of as clean cut. Don't forget Mods were
> listening to ska before the skins were around.
Definitely agreed on the ska point, but did that make them less clean cut?
The idea of being a mod was to be impeccably clean cut and well dressed,
to have the best of everything you could obtain. They may not have had
the most money, but they were definitely clean cut! There are clubs that
you would have been absolutely laughed out of if you didn't have it
together. Ever hear of the Roaring Twenties on Carnaby Street? I'm not
talking the parka clad wagon jumpers on Brighton Beach, I hardly consider
them mods beyond the fact that they watched Ready Steady go and bought
scooters. those were the faceless masses made by the media. The true
mods weren't involved and actually knew what tailors were.
Brian Poust
Brian Poust
Janos Czifra wrote:
>>I think
that Northern Soul started off embracing the clean styles of
Motown, but as those became popular and widespread, the
more it was necessary to find rare sides (Brunswick , Buddah, Pye,
and Vee Jay) and to play the more harder edged material
such as Stax and Volt.
Basically Northern Soul listeners were those who entrenched
themselves in rare soul, r&b, etc., rather than following the
trends of the times as their Southern Soul counterparts, who
more or less moved on to progressive rock/ pyschedelia and
what have you.<<
Good points (as judged by another non Brit anyway). DJ competition in the
soul clubs more than accounts for rarer sides becoming the way to go with
the Nortern Soul set, but the fact that rare at the time often meant
"non-hit" or poorly distributed also had a lot to do with the harder edged
sound. While Motown was super polished and very much pop music, there was
a general feeling that came out of it that you also found particularly in
Chicago coming out of the Okeh (especially), Vee Jay and Chess camps.
Being that they had a bit more of an edge lent themselves well to the
dance floor. The vocalists were more apt to scream it out, and the
musicians often played with more urgency, which alsolends itself to harder
dancing. There were even a few white artists in America who got this
sound in their music, such as Mitch Ryder & the Detroit Wheels, The
Outsiders (at times), the Human Beinz (early on, before the country
influence set in) and the Soul Survivors.
The urban setting of New York produced a lot of the same urgency you found
in Chicago, which the Calla label (and then Loma, to a degree) was great
at capturing.
This to me, says a lot for establishing that there is at least a basis for
a "northern soul sound". this certainly evolved through the 70's, but I
think you can still make a strong case for a basis or foundation for what
the northern soul sound is, geography aside.
Brian Poust
Rob the Mod
Brian Poust wrote:
> Uh, no. This is not exactly correct. There was certainly an influence
> from both American black music and the West Indies community, and maybe
> I'm not understanding your point fully, but who are you considering
> "trendy-mods"? Who I think of "tickets" or "trendy-mods" ended up as
> skinheads, or dropped it altogether and melded back in the status-quo of
> British life as usual.
Yes there was the influence, that is obvious. That was also part of my
point. Which is, that a lot of America and England were NOT too
accepting of black music. Especially the older Generations. It took
people like Elvis and for that matter Beatles and all the band that made
Black music more accessible. I'm not saying the music was not popular.
Im saying it was the youth, like the mods that embraced the black music.
In America and Britain there were scores of songs that were not popular
until white acts sung them.
The so called art mods were the ones I meant, plus the influx that
occured after ready steady go.
>
> Of the musical groups that encompassed the mod scene a very very few
> became hippe bands,
<snip>
That was my point. The post before said that the mods went toward the
hippie movement. I said it didn't.
>The Who was about what??? Maximum RnB.
>
> and by 1966, the Who denounced the mod scene.
Because of what it BECAME
Not that they weren't a
> great band straight up to "Tommy", but not a great band to make points
> about the mod scene with. Not to mention the Who played Woodstock, while
> Daltrey wore fringed vests, bellbottoms and had that god-awful hair.
<No comment>
> >Mods were not thought of as clean cut. Don't forget Mods were
> > listening to ska before the skins were around.
>
> Definitely agreed on the ska point, but did that make them less clean cut?
> The idea of being a mod was to be impeccably clean cut and well dressed,
> to have the best of everything you could obtain.
Yes, they looked good, but in the eyes of Mods and other youths. Don't
forget during that time a long haired hooligan was one that had hair
TOUCHING his ears. Yes they looked good, but to the parents the were
outrageuos. They were also considered ruffians by the older generations.
All they really wanted was a change from the shit society they had to
deal with.
Last of the Hep White Boys,
Rob the Mod
> This to me, says a lot for establishing that there is at least a basis for
> a "northern soul sound". this certainly evolved through the 70's, but I
> think you can still make a strong case for a basis or foundation for what
> the northern soul sound is, geography aside.
>
> Brian Poust
But, he was arguing there is NO specific Northern Soul Sound. I argued
there was.
I also pointed out two of the biggest styles.
Last of the Hep White Boys,
Rob the Mod
Janos Czifra wrote:
>
> BPII <"you must be kidding"@worldnet.att.net> wrote in article
> <68po1b$o...@mtinsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
>
> <snip>
>
> > more than others. Even in England Black music was taboo. Not just in
> > the US.
>
> Northern regions of the UK and Ireland,
Yes, but those were the same kids making that music. Yes' the black
music was influential. But, early on black music was shunned there like
it was here. The kid were the ones that changed it. I think we are
saying the same thing. In America and England there were many examples
of white cover artists singing black musicians songs, and they only got
popular when the white musicians sang them. This was more so in the
US. The kids, in England (Teds, Mods, Rockers) were the ones that were
embracing the black music. The older generations wanted a cleaned up,
notsoblack, style. That's what they tried to push on the youth. I've
seen many examples of this watching documentaries about the British
Invasion.
> > It is evident when you look the cleaned up rock and roll -
> > style stuff that English pop artists tried to put out.
>
> There were many great songs put out in that era 64-67.
> US artists couldn't get a word in edge wise, except for
> Motown. Granted there were some crappy stuff, but all
> in all the "pop" sound from the UK was a result of many
> bands writing their own material. Listen to early Rolling
> Stones, Animals, and Yardbirds recording and then listen
> to them when they gained some fame.
>
> Big difference in style from bands who were obsessed
> with blues music, in the beginning.
>
> > The trendy-mods
> > went for the hippie stuff. The Who was about what??? Maximum RnB. It
> > could be compared to Elvis making RnB more accessable to the whites in
> > America.
>
> The Who was a big marketing ploy
> by their record label to cash in on
> this new "Mod" craze. I like them,
> but don't consider them "Mod". They
> were a slightly toned down version
> of the Small Faces, until they started
> smashing instruments on TV shows.
Yes, and now. Depends on who you read. Some say, they were what the
mods wanted. Somesay not. But if you listen to the early stuff, it was
VERY mod.
Last of the Hep White Boys,
ne...@home.org
The Torch Rules
Does The Torch still exist, does anyone know?
--
Skankersore
Brian Poust
Janos Czifra wrote:
>>I think there isn't, but then again I'm not sure, since I'm not a
citizen of the UK. From what I gather though, Northern Soul
is a term used by folks to describe soul listeners in the Northern
regions of the UK. I know there being a rivalry between those
in the Northern regions of the country vs. those in London<<
I was quoted (correctly) as writing:
>>> This to me, says a lot for establishing that there is at least a basis
for
a "northern soul sound". this certainly evolved through the 70's, but I
think you can still make a strong case for a basis or foundation for what
the northern soul sound is, geography aside.<<
Rob the Mod wrote:
>>But, he was arguing there is NO specific Northern Soul Sound. I argued
there was. I also pointed out two of the biggest styles.<<
First of all, the above quote from me that Rob the Mod also used in his
posting was in direct response to a quote from Janos, not Rob, so his most
recent posting makes absolutely no point, as my response to Janos had
nothing to do with Rob.
Having established that, Rob also wrote that he pointed out two of the
biggest styles. When? His first post said that he's met a lot of DJ's
and was of the opinion that Motown was somehow looked down on because of
it's popularity. Right or Wrong, this has nothing to do with any kind of
Northern Soul sound. In his second post, which I initially replied to, he
wrote his opinions on the different kinds of mods, and how groups like the
Who, and the mod scene, embraced black music. Where was a point
established of Rob's opinion on what two of the biggest styles of
Northern Soul? Back to his first post, he wrote:
>> The two I narrowed down was from these"expert" were the later
motown sort of stuff ("Ghost In My House", "Band Of GOld") and the
harder Edwin Starr style. Just because it was good did not make it
NS.<<
What is this supposed to mean, and how does this one sentence discount
anything I've written? How is anyone not involved supposed to know what
"harder" Edwin Starr is.....Rock oriented Motown era (circa "War") or Soul
oriented Ric Tic vintage, such as "S.O.S. (Stop Her On Sight)"?? Someone
into Northern would immediately recognize the Ric Tic as the answer, but
this discussion is about what makes up a Northern Soul sound, right? Oh,
and as further clarification (and aside), this doesn't overlook the
brilliance of Starr's "25 Miles" LP.
>>The so called art mods were the ones I meant, plus the influx that
occured after ready steady go.<<
And just who do you mean.....those that followed the Eyes, Creation,
John's Children? Those were the most notable of the "art mods". What was
trendy about them? John's Children withstanding as not the best band
musically, and possibly a little suspect about their background, but the
Eyes and Creation were the genuine article. They were mods, and not into
it for the trend, as you're suggesting.
>>That was my point. The post before said that the mods went toward the
hippie movement. I said it didn't.<<
I read your entire earlier posts again, and this is further clarified now,
so yes, I did miss that one the first time around. Maybe this should be
taken off list, as it's moving away from the Northern Soul topic, but I'm
interested in hearing what your beef is with "so-called art mods". I
think you're missing a large point about the mod scene here. Mod existed
before and after 1964, you know.
Look at it this way. If you were 15 in 1964, you were 22 in 1971, still
not old, and in fact, just starting out in a way, finally at an age to
start buying homes, funiture, etc. Between '68 and '71, there was not
just hippie, but quite a movement in modern design based on the space
race, plastics, futurism, et. al. At 22, any self respecting mod would
have been more likely to have followed modernism at least this far, not
into the hippie world, hence the lasting impression the 1969 movie
"Barbarella" left on latter day mods and those into the psych. scene. If
you followed the trend into hippie, or some other such drivel like prog,
then you were a mod because it was an earlier trend, not because it was
something that was real, meaningful and your life.
Then I wrote
> and by 1966, the Who denounced the mod scene.
to which Rob replied:
>Because of what it BECAME
No, because they were never mods! Peter Meaden was Townshend's flatmate
and a mod. He created their image, told them how to dress and it was
because of Pete Meaden that Shel Talmy ever noticed The Who. Both
Townshend and Daltry later quipped that they were uncomfortable with this
image. If you watch "Quadrophenia" again, you'll notice that The Who
aren't exactly championing the mod scene. There's a definite subplot of
alienation there.
>>Yes they looked good, but to the parents the were outrageuos. They were
also considered ruffians by the older generations.<<
In some cases, yes, but what is your source of information? In many
cases, mods were looked at as a much more acceptible alternative to being
a teddy boy or otherwise into beat music at the time. Mods had easy time
getting jobs because of their style of dress as much as they were
chastised for what their parents read in the tabloids, which highly
exaggerated the situation. This was a greater cause of family strife than
hair length. Most first hand accounts of the time will bear this out.
One published example is the "Ace Face" chapter of a book called "Beat
Merchants" by Alan Clayson.
>That's my opinion.
Indeed, it appears to be.
>Last of the Hep White Boys,
speaking of opinions....
Brian Poust
Mark Coyle
Gents,
I am from UK as indeed are many others! The Torch was closed in 1972 (I
believe).
It was working class youth that embraced black music and as an ex-mod I have
come to realise the boundaries were unclear. Teds and Mods both idolised
Chuck Berry whereas to me he was RnR not R&B. When he toured the UK in 1964
mods lined up on stages and bowed down ebfore him. True.
As for a Northern sound, definitely. Try listening to heavy funk and
calling it Northern, you couldn't do it. However the sound is developing
with a more R&B early 60's sound now popular in the scene. It constantly
develops over time.
regards
Mark C
Rob the Mod
Right. Somebodies point (I forgot who now), was that NS had no specific
style. I even said somewhere that even in Germany in the late 80's they
were playing stuff that was dangerously close to disco.
"Never can Say Good-Bye"- Gloria Gaynor , not Melvin and the Bluenotes
(is that right I'm sick and delireous right now.
Last of the Hep White Boys,
Rob the Mod
Brian Poust wrote:
>
>
> What is this supposed to mean, and how does this one sentence discount
> anything I've written? How is anyone not involved supposed to know what
ROB: I wasn't discount what you wrote. Edwin Starr was given as an
example of the harder style. That's it. I know the labels. I gave Edwin
because to me, he would be the most accessible to those who did NOT
know.
> >>The so called art mods were the ones I meant, plus the influx that
> occured after ready steady go.<<
ROB: Just as is the 70's mod revival and now, there were poseurs right?
That's what I meant. After the RSG crowd. It became watered down. You
should see how America imported as Mod. As far as it went
here...Mod=Hippie. That is how, I think, Janos came to the conclusion
that Mods went for the hippie style.
ROB: As for Art Mod, I wrote a whole thing on this than realized how
insulting you got at the end of your post. The only answer you deserve
is that they took themselves to seriously, and it took the fun out of
it.
>>That was my point. The post before said that the mods went toward
the
> hippie movement. I said it didn't.<<
>
> I read your entire earlier posts again, and this is further clarified now,
> so yes, I did miss that one the first time around.
ROB: You tend to miss a lot, maybe it's not my writing.
> Mod existed before and after 1964, you know.
Argue if you want, I can admit when I'm wrong or if I made a mistake.
But DO NOT
insult my intelligence.
> Look at it this way. I<BIG FUCKIN SNIP> life.
>
> Then I wrote
> > and by 1966, the Who denounced the mod scene.
> to which Rob replied:
> >Because of what it BECAME
>
> No, because they were never mods!
ROB: Right, but they did make they're start there. And didn't the
Meaden's book also discuss Townshends fascintation with the mods,
despite the fact he could never BE one. I know this is not your
argument, but without the Mods, The who would have never been all that
important. I think later the mod scene was denounced because of the
violence. After all '66 was when the who's hair was really getting
long, so they were beginning to really love everyone. BTW- the only
songs I still get off on from the Who are: Can't Explain (of course),
Cirles, and Zoot Suit.
> In some cases, yes, but what is your source of information?
ROB : Look at some of the British Invasion Documentaries. Anyone with
hair that touched their ears was thought of as a "Long Haired Hooligan"
> In many cases, mods were looked at as a much more acceptible alternative to being
> a teddy boy
ROB: Hair length was only one analogy. One example, maybe an irony that
people don't fuckin think of now a days. Shoulder length hair did not
exist then. Do you think most of the kids here realise that.
Most first hand accounts of the time will bear this out.
> One published example is the "Ace Face" chapter of a book called "Beat
> Merchants" by Alan Clayson.
>
> >That's my opinion.
>
> Indeed, it appears to be.
>
> >Last of the Hep White Boys,
>
> speaking of opinions....
Now, you're pissing me off. There were many accounts of what the scene
was about. In most of the accounts, everyones view was different. What
do you do? One kid says this, one kid says that. This is an over
analysis of what a bunch of KIDS lived like. Just like today, look at
what these kids think about ska. Everyone of them has diffent opinions
about what the scene was about. You think it was any different then.
Look at all of the discrepancies between music companies version about
how ska was invented. I have my fucking opinions and mine are right for
me. There's no reason to get insulting.
If you want to have a level discussion about this allright, If you want
to offend, okay to. What do you want to do?
> Brian Poust
Last of the Hep White Boys,
Rob the Mod
Brian Poust wrote:
>
>
> What is this supposed to mean, and how does this one sentence discount
> anything I've written? How is anyone not involved supposed to know what
ROB: I wasn't discount what you wrote. Edwin Starr was given as an
example of the harder style. That's it. I know the labels. I gave Edwin
because to me, he would be the most accessible to those who did NOT
know.
> >>The so called art mods were the ones I meant, plus the influx that
> occured after ready steady go.<<
ROB: Just as is the 70's mod revival and now, there were poseurs right?
That's what I meant. After the RSG crowd. It became watered down. You
should see how America imported as Mod. As far as it went
here...Mod=Hippie. That is how, I think, Janos came to the conclusion
that Mods went for the hippie style.
ROB: As for Art Mod, I wrote a whole thing on this than realized how
insulting you got at the end of your post. The only answer you deserve
is that they took themselves to seriously, and it took the fun out of
it.
>>That was my point. The post before said that the mods went toward
the
> hippie movement. I said it didn't.<<
>
> I read your entire earlier posts again, and this is further clarified now,
> so yes, I did miss that one the first time around.
ROB: You tend to miss a lot, maybe it's not my writing.
> Mod existed before and after 1964, you know.
Argue if you want, I can admit when I'm wrong or if I made a mistake.
But DO NOT
insult my intelligence.
> Look at it this way. I<BIG FUCKIN SNIP> life.
>
> Then I wrote
> > and by 1966, the Who denounced the mod scene.
> to which Rob replied:
> >Because of what it BECAME
>
> No, because they were never mods!
ROB: Right, but they did make they're start there. And didn't the
Meaden's book also discuss Townshends fascintation with the mods,
despite the fact he could never BE one. I know this is not your
argument, but without the Mods, The who would have never been all that
important. I think later the mod scene was denounced because of the
violence. After all '66 was when the who's hair was really getting
long, so they were beginning to really love everyone. BTW- the only
songs I still get off on from the Who are: Can't Explain (of course),
Cirles, and Zoot Suit.
> In some cases, yes, but what is your source of information?
ROB : Look at some of the British Invasion Documentaries. Anyone with
hair that touched their ears was thought of as a "Long Haired Hooligan"
> In many cases, mods were looked at as a much more acceptible alternative to being
> a teddy boy
ROB: Hair length was only one analogy. One example, maybe an irony that
people don't fuckin think of now a days. Shoulder length hair did not
exist then. Do you think most of the kids here realise that.
Most first hand accounts of the time will bear this out.
> One published example is the "Ace Face" chapter of a book called "Beat
> Merchants" by Alan Clayson.
>
> >That's my opinion.
>
> Indeed, it appears to be.
>
> >Last of the Hep White Boys,
>
> speaking of opinions....
Now, you're pissing me off. There were many accounts of what the scene
was about. In most of the accounts, everyones view was different. What
do you do? One kid says this, one kid says that. This is an over
analysis of what a bunch of KIDS lived like. Just like today, look at
what these kids think about ska. Everyone of them has diffent opinions
about what the scene was about. You think it was any different then.
Look at all of the discrepancies between music companies version about
how ska was invented. I have my fucking opinions and mine are right for
me. There's no reason to get insulting.
If you want to have a level discussion about this allright, If you want
to offend, okay to. What do you want to do?
> Brian Poust
Last of the Hep White Boys,
Rob the Mod
Okay, let's first start off in saying, I am a decent debater, but NOT a
good writer.
My points
1. NS has an established sound.
A. What I call the Post Motown/Pre-disco style
a. as examples - Band of Gold - Freda Payne
b Ghost in My House - R Dean Taylot
c. other examples - Right Back Where We Started From - M. Nightingale
B. the Harder Style
a. as example - Edwin Starr - 25 miles (my fav)
b. others Mitch Ryder $ Det Wheels
c Tainted Love - G. Jones
2. Motown Influence-
a Most DJ's that I met thought it was too popular/ too accessible to
play
b Most of them liked Motown
c If it was on a smaller Motown offshot, it was usually acceptable
(i.e. R Dean)
Forget the black influence on music. Somebody argued that mods went
hippie. I argued mods embraced the black music. The older generation,
in what I have read and seen, did not like the balck influence. Just
like it happened in the US. That's WHY musicians like Elvis were so
risque/taboo. The kids were REBELS and liked the music
I think you (Brian) and I share similar view on the NS scene. I was in
some points supporting your arguements. I will be the first to admit
that I am not the most eliquent writer. Forgive Me. Some of the
arguments that had brought up spilled over from another posting.
I know the whole story on the Who. They were "The Great Rock-n-Roll
Swindle" before the Sex Pistol were even born.
Last of the Hep White Boys,
Steven Perryman
In article <68po1b$o...@mtinsc03.worldnet.att.net> you, must, be, kid...@worldnet.att.net writes:
>Alan Guest wrote:
>>
>> If you made a family tree of sub-cultures (as was done in a book called
>> StreetStyle which Rob mentioned) and extended it to show the social
>> class of people in those sub-cultures it would show that higher classes
>> have always progressed and evolved into totally new groups and the lower
>> classes have just modified existing groups. I think the upwardly mobile
>> mods evolved into the psychedelics and hippies whilst the more
>> downwardly mobile (and possibly the bigger lovers of black music)
>> modified the style into skinhead and Northern Soul. Nowadays the scooter
>> scene has a mixture of both skinhead reggae/ska and Northern soul music
>> and is todays manifestation of the same sub-group. Anybody agree with
>> that?
>Even in England Black music was taboo. Not just in the US. It is evident
>when you look the cleaned up rock and roll style stuff that English pop
>artists tried to put out.
Rubbish.
From someone who was never there in the 60s, and with 'suspect' info on what
really was.
Virtually most of 60s UK music has its roots in black music.
Most of the best guitarists (Clapton, Page etc) and bands (the Stones etc)
were inspired by blues greats. And this was long before the height of the
Mod scene. Black music was hardly taboo by any means, cos enough were
obviously hearing it.
And as I understand it :
'Northern Soul' originally meant those US soul labels and artists who weren't
on the 'majors' like Motown etc.
And in the 80s, the term in the UK was used to label the club scene up north,
soul music/rare groove etc.
Regards,
Steven Perryman
ste...@nortel.co.uk
PS: FYI my folks were Mods and well into the London scene.
I get more than enough info on how music like ska (or bluebeat as it was
known then) permeated thru the clubs and parties.
Brian Poust
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Rob the Mod wrote:
> I think you (Brian) and I share similar view on the NS scene. I was in
> some points supporting your arguements. I will be the first to admit
> that I am not the most eliquent writer. Forgive Me. Some of the
> arguments that had brought up spilled over from another posting.
Maybe. But after your last post and a quick check on Deja News to see
what other activity you have on Usenet groups, particularly the always
entertaining alt.music.ska, I don't see much point in giving any
further response. 929 hits on Deja News alone pretty much tells me you're
just another who just likes to post reactionary messages to get the last
word, and I don't have time for that. But then again, alt.music.ska is
full of that shit, which is why anyone who reads it regularly
automatically has two strikes against them.
Brian Poust
Meredith
Brian Poust wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Rob the Mod wrote:
> > some points supporting your arguements. I will be the first to admit
> > that I am not the most eliquent writer. Forgive Me. Some of the
> > arguments that had brought up spilled over from another posting.
I've been keeping an eye on this thread to get a clue on how Soul music
is perceived, accepted and adapted in the UK.
Don't worry about your writing ability--you can improve that with a
little effort.
By the way, I'm a lousy at debating, and a so-so writer. Such is life.
Your points came across very well.
Also, I have no comments on any of your points (due to a lack of
knowledge about the subject being discussed).
> Maybe. But after your last post and a quick check on Deja News to see
> what other activity you have on Usenet groups, particularly the always
> entertaining alt.music.ska, I don't see much point in giving any
> further response. 929 hits on Deja News alone pretty much tells me you're
> just another who just likes to post reactionary messages to get the last
> word, and I don't have time for that. But then again, alt.music.ska is
> full of that shit, which is why anyone who reads it regularly
> automatically has two strikes against them.
>
> Brian Poust
There's no need for you to go there, Brian.
Where he's posted before has little if anything to do with the points
he's making in this thread. He clearly isn't a troll. He just has some
opinions.
Kara [and I'm glad I read 'em]
Rob the Mod
Steven Perryman wrote:
> Virtually most of 60s UK music has its roots in black music.
> Most of the best guitarists (Clapton, Page etc) and bands (the Stones etc)
> were inspired by blues greats. And this was long before the height of the
> Mod scene. Black music was hardly taboo by any means, cos enough were
> obviously hearing it.
>
> And as I understand it :
>
> 'Northern Soul' originally meant those US soul labels and artists who weren't
> on the 'majors' like Motown etc.
>
> And in the 80s, the term in the UK was used to label the club scene up north,
> soul music/rare groove etc.
>
> Regards,
> Steven Perryman
> ste...@nortel.co.uk
>
> PS: FYI my folks were Mods and well into the London scene.
> I get more than enough info on how music like ska (or bluebeat as it was
> known then) permeated thru the clubs and parties.
I'm not sure if you were replying to me or not. But...
Yes black music had DEEP roots in English music. But, the older
generation did not care for it very much. They were to busy putting out
whiter versions of rocknroll. This has happened in the US as well. Do
you doubt that? How about all of those Cole Porter song that Sinatra
sang, that got popular only when Sinatra sang them. Take also the
Coasters Little Egypt, it wasn't liked outside of the black community
until Elvis sang it. I have no doubt the effects black music had on
Rockand Roll/Mod whatever.
The kids liked the ORIGINAL, black versions of the songs. They were the
Rebels, they wanted to change what the older generation thought of
this. How many times have you seen rocknroll documentaries, and they
talked about not playing "Colored Music" My first point as I will
repeat, was that they (mods/whoever) were trying to change that. Most
of the bands like the Stones/Who/Beatles(not necessarily all mod) made
the music more accessable to the white kids.
I knew quite a few DJ's in Germany that were British and quite old as
well. So I'm not exactly in the dark (never mind the pun). I'm not that
old, but not that young either.
I HATE the name northern soul, BTW. It tries so smack a british label
on AMERICAN music.
Last of the Hep White Boys,
Rob the Mod
Brian Poust wrote:
>
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, Rob the Mod wrote:
> > some points supporting your arguements. I will be the first to admit
> > that I am not the most eliquent writer. Forgive Me. Some of the
> > arguments that had brought up spilled over from another posting.
>
> what other activity you have on Usenet groups, particularly the always
> entertaining alt.music.ska, I don't see much point in giving any
> further response. 929 hits on Deja News alone pretty much tells me you're
> just another who just likes to post reactionary messages to get the last
> word, and I don't have time for that. But then again, alt.music.ska is
> full of that shit, which is why anyone who reads it regularly
> automatically has two strikes against them.
>
> Brian Poust
Why were you the first one to get offensive, then??? You lost me after
that,fella. And, there are quite a few kids that have good things to
say on this NG. By tracking me down through your idle curiousity, it
tells me Yuou may be a bit obsessive about winning the argument.
You are a bit judgemental to be the one who threw the first stone. I
was keeping it on the level. You decided to engage. Did you read any
of my Aerobatics postings???
Last of the Hep White Boys,
Brian Poust
Karla wrote:
> There's no need for you to go there, Brian.
>
> Where he's posted before has little if anything to do with the points
> he's making in this thread. He clearly isn't a troll. He just has some
> opinions.
This is a fair enough observation, and one that I can appreciate.
Brian Poust
Mark Coyle
Not to have a go but Northern Soul was not coined to differentiate major
label soul from independents. it was coined around 1972 to differentiate
the southern soul scene (funk, late stax, slowies) from the uptempo Motown
derived sound popular in the north of England. Actually it was anywhere
north of Watford which is not very far north at all and places like Stoke
and Nottingham are definitely not in the North. Now it was either coined by
Dave Godin of Blues and Soul magazine or an organiser of one of the popular
nighters in Peterborough. I can't remember his name.
While most NS is on independent labels there are loads of classics on majors
like EMI or labels affiliated with them.
People really should check before posting such things as the amount of
inacurate and misleading information being posted is just getting too high.
I'm not having a go at anyone which is why this isn't a reply.
UK Northern Soul fans with some knowledge post up your views and let's help
our friends in the US.
regards
Mark Coyle
Rob the Mod
Mark Coyle wrote:
>
> Not to have a go but Northern Soul was not coined to differentiate major
> label soul from independents.
Of course not. The dj's were just being somewhat selective. Im a dj.
I lived in Germany during the big boom in the late 80's. I play a lot
of major stuff, but I prefer the rarer stuff. I originally made the
argument that there was a SPECIFIC sound that the dj's sought out.
Because originally someone said that NS did not have a sound, but was
rare soul. I could not let that go, unchallenged.
> it was coined around 1972 to differentiate
> the southern soul scene (funk, late stax, slowies) from the uptempo Motown
> derived sound popular in the north of England. Actually it was anywhere
> north of Watford which is not very far north at all and places like Stoke
> and Nottingham are definitely not in the North. Now it was either coined by
> Dave Godin of Blues and Soul magazine or an organiser of one of the popular
> nighters in Peterborough. I can't remember his name.
Right as I know it, brother. I know who you mean, but Im horrible with
names.
> While most NS is on independent labels there are loads of classics on majors
> like EMI or labels affiliated with them.
Or even, the motown offshoots.
>
> People really should check before posting such things as the amount of
> inacurate and misleading information being posted is just getting too high.
> I'm not having a go at anyone which is why this isn't a reply.
>
> UK Northern Soul fans with some knowledge post up your views and let's help
> our friends in the US.
>
> regards
> Mark Coyle
I met a few UK dj's in Germany, most of them were squaddies. This
whole discussion has turned into a big confusing mess. Not to mention
the insistance of some people to make this a PISSING contest.
Thank You for not being a jerk in this post. Some should take note of
this.
ROB the MOD
ne...@home.org
In article <68vda8$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>, you, must, be,
kid...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Right. Somebodies point (I forgot who now), was that NS had no specific
> style. I even said somewhere that even in Germany in the late 80's they
> were playing stuff that was dangerously close to disco.
(snip)
> Last of the Hep White Boys,
> Rob the Mod
(snip)
speaking of dangerously close to disco german interpretations of music,
I have a simply *awful* (and therefore hilarious) version of "007"
by a German ska band (circa 1979) called THE NIGHTHAWKS that
literally breaks into a note-slap-note-slap-note-slap generic disco
bassline, replete with strings. The album is called "Skank it up" and
there are one or two *okay* songs on it, but this is definitely the
highlight. I'd have to say they also deserve credit for being the first
german ska band (they certainly predate the Busters) - that I know of
at any rate.
Cheers.
(does this begin to bring this thread back to this newsgroups topic?)
Skankersore
John M. Stafford
Karla wrote:
> Where [Rob the Mod has] posted before has little if anything to do with the
> points he's making in this thread. He clearly isn't a troll. He just has
> some opinions.
A few too many opinions, and way too much time on his hands.
Enjoy,
John M. Stafford
autor de cuatro palabras Fundamental Illustrator 7
BSSC, proud supporters of
D.C. United MLS Cup '97 Champions
http://www.StudioJohnMStafford.com
http://www.ScooterTrader.com
"Scooters were designed to be ridden, not garaged."
John M. Stafford
John M. Stafford
On Fri, 09 Jan 1998, Skankersor <ne...@home.org> wrote:
>speaking of dangerously close to disco german interpretations of music,
>I have a simply *awful* (and therefore hilarious) version of "007"
>by a German ska band (circa 1979) called THE NIGHTHAWKS that
>literally breaks into a note-slap-note-slap-note-slap generic disco
>bassline, replete with strings. The album is called "Skank it up" and
>there are one or two *okay* songs on it, but this is definitely the
>highlight. I'd have to say they also deserve credit for being the first
>german ska band (they certainly predate the Busters) - that I know of
>at any rate.
Don't forget Lou & the Hollywood Bananas from the same time period. They
actually had some good tunes.
Greg Skinner
In article <68vda8$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
Rob the Mod <you, must, be, kid...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"Never can Say Good-Bye"- Gloria Gaynor , not Melvin and the Bluenotes
>(is that right I'm sick and delireous right now.
Yes, however that song was recorded also by Isaac Hayes, the Jackson
5, and probably others.
--gregbo
gds at best.com
BP II
Greg Skinner wrote in message <698dgl$39p$1...@shell5.ba.best.com>...
I knew about the Hayes cover but the Jackson 5? Man I gotta hear that. Is
it bad???
rob the mod
BP II
John M. Stafford wrote in message ...
>Karla wrote:
>> Where [Rob the Mod has] posted before has little if anything to do with
the
>> points he's making in this thread. He clearly isn't a troll. He just has
>> some opinions.
>
>A few too many opinions, and way too much time on his hands.
>
>Enjoy,
>John M. Stafford
>autor de cuatro palabras Fundamental Illustrator 7
Stafford, in English no less. Mexican girlfriend??? Where have you been,
jerky?
Knob the Rod <that one's for the porn fans, and those that can't come up
with creative put-downs>
leigh
Well, it's better than the Communards.
Leigh
leigh
Or was that Bronski Beat?
Leigh
Janos Czifra
leigh <le...@acadia.net> wrote in article <34B8F5...@acadia.net>...
> Or was that Bronski Beat?
>
> Leigh
"Beat Boy, Beat Boy, Play that play that play that funky beat boy!!!"
That's messed up, I heard that on
the radio last night, followed by
"Poison Arrow" by ABC.
Eeekk!!
cheers,
John
leigh
That's "hit that perfect beat, boy." Jeez, I haven't totally lost it!
And mind what you say about ABC - they're one of my all time favorites
and worth far more than 90% of ska bands.
Can anyone remember whether it was the Communards or Bronski Beat who
covered "Never Can Say Goodbye?"
Leigh
ne...@home.org
(snip)
> Can anyone remember whether it was the Communards or Bronski Beat who
> covered "Never Can Say Goodbye?"
>
> Leigh
I believe it was the Communards, but didn't both bands have the same
singer? Wasn't one formed after the other broke up? That's about
all I know, because I never was and still am not much of a fan of
synth club pop.
---
Skankersore
leigh
Yep. Jimmy Somerville. Bronski Beat was first.
Leigh
Harry Weinger
BP II wrote:
>
> Greg Skinner wrote in message <698dgl$39p$1...@shell5.ba.best.com>...
> >In article <68vda8$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>,
> >Rob the Mod <you, must, be, kid...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >>"Never can Say Good-Bye"- Gloria Gaynor , not Melvin and the Bluenotes
> >>(is that right I'm sick and delireous right now.
> >
> >Yes, however that song was recorded also by Isaac Hayes, the Jackson
> >5, and probably others.
> >
> >--gregbo
> >gds at best.com
>
> I knew about the Hayes cover but the Jackson 5? Man I gotta hear that. Is
> it bad???
>
> rob the mod
Um, excuse me, but the J5 version is the original. And what's your
definition of bad in this context? I happen to love it, but then again I
bought the 45 back in the day. Also love the Isaac Hayes version, and
have been known to enjoy Gloria's rave-up. Can't kill a good song.
Harry W.