Horn section work
jgerber.com
modern horn section of 2 trumpets, bass trombone, saxophone? For POP, Funk,
Rock work.
Most important, I am looking for excersizes to help a section like this
become one voice, with the same timing and feel.
Thank you
Regards
JG
P. Tung
and he talked a little about the experience of learning to play parts with
Fats Domino's sections (guys who really breathe, swell, lay back, and pop
together).
What I got out of it, and my own experience of the guys in that section, is
that somebody has to have the grammar first, in a way, fully blown, for the
transfer/progress to happen quickly.
Pete said on his first gigs with Fats that Fred Kemp spent the whole
performances playing directly at Pete, so that Pete could hear everything
and pick it up.
The thing of time, in sectionwork that sounds good (that is soulful), is
that it is a fully established grammar; it might vary and evolve
differently -- it does -- from place to place, but in each place there is a
grammar that everybody "who is hip" speaks. I think it probably has to be
learned from hearing it done and doing it. Some of it can be picked up by
listening to records, but listening to records you never get the other
players shooting glances at you when you are off.
I would say listen to the old New Orleans rock & roll of the late 50s, and
you will start to get the feel of the time.
I did a recording with the Fats guys in my house, and they let me play on
it. The thing that struck me the most from playing with them was that I had
to change my tone RADICALLY to fit in and not sound like a square peg in a
round hole (I still probably did/do, and that would explain why I have to
turn myself down in the mix whenever I can hear myself).
I've heard Quincy Jones talk about giving sections sentences in order to
understand the time and inflection of passages. Things like, "Sit DOWN,
m******f*****r." Not exactly that, lol, some other prefix with the same
suffix.
IMO, every "The Commitments" needs a "Joey The Lips."
You can come up with something more modern, something like the band Egg Yolk
Jubilee (the band), here in New Orleans, but not something authentic,
without having an actual set of feet in the band that are bearers of
culture.
There are very few rock (or other genre) sections that can "breathe
together" like the R&B sections on the chitlin cirquit did in the 40s & 50s.
"jgerber.com" <saxop...@webmail.co.za> wrote in message
news:pu-dnZphEJF...@is.co.za...
Neal
wrote:
Tuning is key. It's hard on stage sometimes unless you've got in-ear
monitors or a really good speaker monitor system. So learn to play in
equal temperment accurately. It's a bit different from tuning in a concert
band or big band. There you'll adjust toward more pure intervals, but with
keyboards and guitars seting the tuning ET is what you need to adjust to.
Learn to play articulations, falloffs, scoops, etc. together. Aside from
some of the Chicago stuff where Jimmy would scoop when Walt and Lee would
not (and it's a great, distinctive sound), generally you want to have
uniform articulation. This requires practice and agreement.
Solos in rock work require a bit of a different approach than jazz solos.
Simplify, learn a new repertoire of licks. You can go out there sometimes,
but keep an eye on that. "In the pocket" improvisation works better in
that style.
Wdflannery
>together" like the R&B sections on the chitlin cirquit did in the 40s & 50s.
I don't know about that ... but there is for sure one group, actually 2 guys,
that have got it down in Oaktown .... I chanced upon these guys last week at a
festival .... Mean Carl Green (tenor) and John (White Lightnin) Middleton
trumpet.... they were playing with the Payne-Edmonson Blues
band(www.payne-edmonson.com) ... which also does R&B, Motown, Al Green,
etc...... the lineup was bass-drums-guitar-horns-vocals and these guys
ROCKED..... the horns played a lot .... more than on the originals...and the
arrangements were tight and varied .... not endless repetition of
licks......and the sound was killin.... so good I asked the tenor player his
setup (a first for me...shiny new looking Selmer, Berg Larsen 110/2, Lavoz Med
Soft)... I should have asked what effects if any .......they .. the "Sweet
Meat" horns....have been playing together for 20 years......I'm going to make
one of their gigs with my mini-disc .....
bill goldner
bill g
"Neal" <nea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Learn to play articulations,
falloffs, scoops, etc. together. Aside from
> some of the Chicago stuff where Jimmy would scoop when Walt and Lee would
> not (and it's a great, distinctive sound), generally you want to have
> uniform articulation. This requires practice and agreement.
>
>style.
The Dude
> what's a "scoop"?
A dip.
--
The Dude
on Tenor I was playing next to over the B/H weekend.
!!!!!!!
--
Neal
wrote:
> what's a "scoop"?
> bill g
Well, Jimmy will slide up to a pitch. Done often, it's sloppy, but he does
it on the right notes.
Think of it as a bend up to the note, almost like a grace note.
MrWitworth
directed at, but as a foundation, all of the players (if there are no charts
involved) must know the chord structure and the note that comrpise the chords,
of every tune. The section needs to be able to instantly harmonize in as many
chord voices as there are players, what ever the chord structure is at any
given time. In the group I play in, the original tenor player takes the lead
in determining what the rhythm figure will be for any spot in the song, then
the other two of us have the responsibility of creating the harmony. It is
actually very easy if each player knows where they are in the chord structure
of the tune. This process does require good ears and thorough understanding of
the material and the chord structure. Though it may be easier to work off of
charts, the way we do it allows infinite possiblilites on on-the-fly
harmonization. No practice necessary.
The other comments regarding the 'feel' of the section along with dynamics, etc
also apply.
RC
Neal
I hate when I sit in with a horn bnd and they are either all subs or they
are all unrehearsed. There's no center interpretation to latch on to.
With my band, I try to be consistent, especially when there's a sub in the
section. Make the articulations a bit predictable. When I write horn
charts I like to mark the articulations very clearly. That helps the subs
a lot, they have a baseline approach to go by.
Of course, it doesn't help if the sub is a poor reader. :-\
Neal
> I'm not exactly sure what aspect of the 'horn section thing' the
> question is
> directed at, but as a foundation, all of the players (if there are no
> charts
> involved) must know the chord structure and the note that comrpise the
> chords,
> of every tune. The section needs to be able to instantly harmonize in as
> many
> chord voices as there are players, what ever the chord structure is at
> any
> given time. ... Though it may be easier to work off of
> charts, the way we do it allows infinite possiblilites on on-the-fly
> harmonization. No practice necessary.
I can't disagree. But even with charts we manage to go off with them!
We've totally rewritten some of the horn charts on stage over the course
of gigs. Last weekend we had a sub, and the other two of us had to
remember what the parts said, as he'd have no way of knowing what we tend
to do!
If your choice is between poorly-written horn charts and doing it on the
fly, the fly wins every time. But there's nothing like an expertly written
horn chart which leaves room for the players to play, as well as gives a
general guide to what will definitely work.
Stephen Howard
<checksite...@nobspaaam.justsaxes.com> wrote:
>Pete Thomas gave me an interview while he was in New Orleans a while back,
>and he talked a little about the experience of learning to play parts with
>Fats Domino's sections (guys who really breathe, swell, lay back, and pop
>together).
>
>What I got out of it, and my own experience of the guys in that section, is
>that somebody has to have the grammar first, in a way, fully blown, for the
>transfer/progress to happen quickly.
>
>Pete said on his first gigs with Fats that Fred Kemp spent the whole
>performances playing directly at Pete, so that Pete could hear everything
>and pick it up.
>
>The thing of time, in sectionwork that sounds good (that is soulful), is
>that it is a fully established grammar; it might vary and evolve
>differently -- it does -- from place to place, but in each place there is a
>grammar that everybody "who is hip" speaks. I think it probably has to be
>learned from hearing it done and doing it. Some of it can be picked up by
>listening to records, but listening to records you never get the other
>players shooting glances at you when you are off.
>
Having played a very great deal with various horn sections down the
years I fully echo Palo's remarks.
The reference to a 'grammar' is a good one - no matter how good the
part or how good the players, without some form of common
understanding of what's required you'll never achieve that unified
sound.
Part of the problem is that you simply can't write 'hipness' into horn
parts. OK, you could - but they'd be practically unreadable...with
atrociously short notes and dotted demisemiquavers all over the place.
Granted, if you take a team of pro players who've never worked
together before and place before them a chart they've never seen
before, they'll make a pretty good go of it - but give them some time
to listen to each other and define the central 'grammar' and they'll
really cook.
It's a subtle thing - for example, take a bog-standard chromatic drop
over a blues from the 5th to the 4th. Typically made up of at least
two long notes joined by a quaver stepdown.
Many horn players like to 'develop' the tone over the long notes - a
sort of gentle, slow 'wah' effect. It's rarely written in, it's just a
feel that comes naturally to the riff. But some players keep it dead
straight.
Mix the two and the riff will sound just fine - but it will leave you
with about a 5% discrepancy in the unified tone. So you listen to the
lead player and adapt correspondingly.
More often than not there'll be one player in particular who sets the
style ( typically the trumpet player ) - and this is rarely a
pre-arranged thing, it's simply common sense to listen out for who's
got the lead and follow it ( assuming it's right! ).
In this respect, the only way to improve a horn section as a whole is
to play together.
Sure, you can each do your homework where necessary - but you just
can't beat working as a team to sound like a single player.
Palo's reference to 'shooting glances' is another gem - you gotta have
one eye one the dots and the other on the rest of the section.
Raised eyebrows, slight nods and movements are tools to communicate
intentions.
Regards,
--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
P. Tung
Have you ever heard the Fats Domino sax section live? This is one of the
few remaining sax sections from that era.
It's sort of an alien thing until you actually have seen it. I am not
talking about just playing together and being "tight," but about being a
thing that is more than the sum of its parts, and that has a complexity of
expression - as one complex voice - that you will not find in 99% of the
orchestra pits at the highest levels.
It is a dead art, in a way, and it probably isn't coming back.
That is because people think you can learn to play section work by listening
to recordings or doing exercises.
The way Pete put it in his interview, when I asked, "How do you GET it?"
(approximately) was, "It just...it just...SUCKS YOU IN...."
I thought that was a pretty succinct and exceptional answer, personally.
Nobody wants to think they are on the outside of something hip.
The reality is that, from now on, pretty much all of us are.
"Wdflannery" <wdfla...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040831213321...@mb-m13.aol.com...
P. Tung
"Stephen Howard" <sees...@email.uk> wrote in message
news:ua3bj0pm4o91k9m18...@4ax.com...
Exactly - and they have to know each other as voices and human beings in
order to "touch," which is really the only way I know how to put it in one
word, and which is the best compliment I have ever heard a section player
give another man: "[He's OK because] He touch."
I'm not saying that as someone who does, or can, "touch," but just as a
witness. Inexpert testimony, on my part, as social observer rather than
instrumentalist.
> It's a subtle thing - for example, take a bog-standard chromatic drop
> over a blues from the 5th to the 4th. Typically made up of at least
> two long notes joined by a quaver stepdown.
> Many horn players like to 'develop' the tone over the long notes - a
> sort of gentle, slow 'wah' effect. It's rarely written in, it's just a
> feel that comes naturally to the riff. But some players keep it dead
> straight.
> Mix the two and the riff will sound just fine - but it will leave you
> with about a 5% discrepancy in the unified tone. So you listen to the
> lead player and adapt correspondingly.
One of the craziest things I notice about the way Stackman (Elliot Callier)
and Shep (Frederick Sheppard - these are both Fats guys) play together is
the way they end phrases against each other, to created crazy & surprising
dynamics ("grammarwise").
They have a whole "book" of things like this, and encyclopedia of things
that they both agree - without agreeing to agree, or needing to - "work."
One funny thing about them, as men, is that their catchwords for things are
largely reflective of their horn selves.
Shep never says, "OK, that's good." He always says, "OK, that sounds good."
He doesn't say, "That's right" or "correct" nearly as often as he says "that
works."
Every calling a full commitment, like it or not, I guess. Maybe that is
part of the difference, generational reflected in the passing of "real" R&B
bar band horn sections: that people don't treat their craft as a calling so
much, now, as a calling card.
[Again, "social observation, here, not instrumentalist's," lol]
>
> More often than not there'll be one player in particular who sets the
> style ( typically the trumpet player ) - and this is rarely a
> pre-arranged thing, it's simply common sense to listen out for who's
> got the lead and follow it ( assuming it's right! ).
>
> In this respect, the only way to improve a horn section as a whole is
> to play together.
> Sure, you can each do your homework where necessary - but you just
> can't beat working as a team to sound like a single player.
>
> Palo's reference to 'shooting glances' is another gem - you gotta have
> one eye one the dots and the other on the rest of the section.
> Raised eyebrows, slight nods and movements are tools to communicate
> intentions.
If I have the horn in my mouth, every time Shep twitches he destroys me.
And he is a twitchy sort, lol.
P. Tung
disagreement, there, WD, except in the way your post is phrased.
You are talking about people who are tied into the generation whose passing
I am kind of histrionically lamenting.
There are not that many people from that generation left, and there are
relatively few people who will really play with them the way they played
with their peers and elders.
There are way too many people who cannot hear, and cannot appreciate what
that older generation knows, and part of pointing out how few sections like
that exist nowadays - and that all of them are made up of old men who are
not long for this world in most cases - is to ask people to bother to rehear
those sections, I guess.
I want to learn what they know. I guess I am hoping that someday there will
be other people I can play with, who bother to have ears, when they pass. I
guess I don't think there will be any, lol.
"P. Tung" <checksite...@nobspaaam.justsaxes.com> wrote in message
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