Tuning older horns
jaimesol
was able to get them under control using a new Otto Link, but I've recently
switched to a Vandoren V16 T75, and those notes are going sharp again.
I'd like to be able to continue using the Vandoren, but how can I get those
notes in tune?
JB
for the MP, or it might be that the mouthpiece requires a different
embouchure. You might even want to try shaving the reed to affect the tuning
of those few notes.
--
John B.
"jaimesol" <solj...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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jaimesol
"JB" <gmoff...@home.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
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ASILANT57
It's been said that you must have a
large chambered mpc w/ the old Conns
and Bueschers to get them to play
best in tune .
What I've found to be _critical_ is
that you must NOT start to put _more_
pressure on , from high C up ; you
should stay relaxed and keep an identical
embouchure from high C into the palm
keys and beyond . Open throat and
relaxed embouchure will allow you to
use the Link-styled mpcs , as well as
the Bergs , and their offshoots, and exp-
erience no intonation problems .
I'm currently using a Barone Hollywood
on a '27 Chu Berry and a 30M Connqueror
and it's the biggest tenor sound I've
EVER gotten .. unbelievable , really .
HTH,
::davewilliams::
jaimesol
"ASILANT57" <asil...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Jive Dadson
other vintage horns, it has a longer neck than newer horns. Thus, more
of the neck protrudes into the mouthpiece, effectively reducing the size
of the chamber. Thus a larger chambered mouthpiece is called for.
Jive
Joe Pairman
big-chambered piece such as a Link there's no problem. When I play a
slightly smaller-chambered piece such as a Meyer the top end can be a
bit sharp. I try to keep a more 'classical' oooo embouchure and I
refine it by using overtone exercises to check the tuning (play a note
such as middle G normally, then play it as an overtone of C, and then
try to get the normally played note to be in tune with the overtone).
I'm not sure if using a softer reed is necessarily the way to go.
It's true that a soft reed can make the top end flat, but a harder
reed is easier to 'lip' up or down in pitch.
--
Joe Pairman
Leeds, UK
Joe Pairman
at least a medium.
--
Joe Pairman
Leeds, UK
Joe Pairman
alto, would that fix the intonation with smaller-chambered
mouthpieces?
This is a serious question, and I'd be very interested to know what
you, as well as people like Stephen Howard and Steve Goodson think
about this.
Also, has anybody experienced the opposite problem; intonation
difficulties when playing a large-chambered mouthpiece on a modern
horn? Or are modern horns more flexible, mouthpiece-wise?
--
Joe Pairman
Leeds, UK
Jive Dadson <jda...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
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Robert L. Carroll
saxophone when using a large chambered mouthpiece, namely, the Rascher and
the Caravan. The Rascher was flat from about C above the clef up. By D#,
the note is a full half tone flat, and impossible to lip.
I spoke with Ralph Morgan, who offered to make for me his large-chambered
mouthpiece (model 1C). It is not flat on the upper notes, but I have to
push it onto the neck quite far to play in tune compared to other
mouthpieces. If I understood Morgan correctly, a mouthpiece that is flat
on the upper notes is not made properly.
I have come to value the Morgan mouthpiece very much for classical
ensemble use.
Paul Lindemeyer
Joe Pairman wrote:
>
> So- if I had a little bit chopped off the end of the neck of my Conn
> alto, would that fix the intonation with smaller-chambered
> mouthpieces?
>
> This is a serious question, and I'd be very interested to know what
> you, as well as people like Stephen Howard and Steve Goodson think
> about this.
No!! Don't do it!!!!
You'd be throwing off the placement of every tonehole on the horn.
Chopping the neck would create a monster that would *never* play in tune again.
A modification that *will* work if done right is neck lining. You can
experiment with chunks of silicon rubber tubing that you place inside
the small end of the neck with a piece of doweling.
If you find a size & placement you like, you have the option of having a
metal liner put in as a permanent fix, but you then might have problems
playing in tune with stock pieces.
> Jive Dadson <jda...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:39E9264A...@ix.netcom.com...
> > I'm not familiar with the Chu Berry tenor, but if it's like a lot of
> > other vintage horns, it has a longer neck than newer horns. Thus,
> more
> > of the neck protrudes into the mouthpiece, effectively reducing the
> size
> > of the chamber. Thus a larger chambered mouthpiece is called for.
--
LINDEMEYER PRODUCTIONS INC.
Orchestras Ensembles Graphic Design
C.G. CONN & BUESCHER Saxophones
Paul Lindemeyer <pau...@cyburban.com>
MojoBari
> Also, has anybody experienced the opposite problem; intonation
> difficulties when playing a large-chambered mouthpiece on a modern
> horn? Or are modern horns more flexible, mouthpiece-wise?
> --
I have had success using smaller chamber MPs to fix sharpness in the
higher notes (if embouchure is not the problem). The smaller chamber
allows you to pull it out more on the cork to get the chamber volume
needed to get middle and lower register in tune. Pulling out flattens
the upper notes more than the lower notes. Its a percentage of the
tube length phenomenon. This is described in the Ferron book: The Sax
Is My Voice.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Paul Lindemeyer
Joe Pairman wrote:
>
> Hi Paul, thanks for the info. Where's the best place to get silicon
> rubber tubing? Do you think a DIY or plumbing shop would sell it?
I found mine in a hardware store (I guess DIY is what you call them over
there). I'm not sure it's silicon, or even rubber (it's a clear flexible
stuff, perhaps PVC) but that's what was recommended to me, because of
its natural tendency to cling to the sides of the tube (mine did but
eventually fell down the horn :-).
Cut a hunk 1/2" to 1" long and make a lengthwise cut in that to make it
a "c" shape instead of a ring. Push it around inside the neck with
doweling or a pencil or something. Play a little each time and see how
the tuning changes.
> Can you shed any light on 'MojoBari's observation that actually,
> intonation problems are *better* with smaller-chambered pieces?
> (Somebody else also told me the same thing, although it doesn't seem
> to hold true in my experience). Is it all something to do with bore
> size? And how come the rubber tubing doesn't mess up intonation?
> Would a short and stubby mouthpiece be different than a long,
> thin-chambered one?
Hmmm, let me think here. All you need is a ballpark chamber volume. A
long skinny piece would work in theory, except that it often needs to be
placed waaaay back on the neck cork. That hurts the high note response,
encourages air leakage, and often causes the piece to fall off, which is
embarassing and bad for the music.
Joe Pairman
intonation problems when using small chamber pieces on old horns, and
why do they write that the problems can be solved by using a bigger
piece?
Somebody said that it's all to do with bore size. Can you shed any
light on that? I suppose that may be why putting rubber tubing in the
top of the neck may help, as Paul L suggested.
I'm still mystified.
--
Joe Pairman
Leeds, UK
MojoBari <KWBra...@csi.com> wrote in message
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Joe Pairman
rubber tubing? Do you think a DIY or plumbing shop would sell it?
Can you shed any light on 'MojoBari's observation that actually,
intonation problems are *better* with smaller-chambered pieces?
(Somebody else also told me the same thing, although it doesn't seem
to hold true in my experience). Is it all something to do with bore
size? And how come the rubber tubing doesn't mess up intonation?
Would a short and stubby mouthpiece be different than a long,
thin-chambered one?
I suppose that the answers are rather too technical and long to post,
but if you could offer any comments I'd be grateful.
--
Joe Pairman
Leeds, UK
Paul Lindemeyer <pau...@cyburban.com> wrote in message
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Tore Hage
intonation of saxophones from the 20s, was born from my little study of
the Buescher altos. The Truetones of the 20s with a neck marked "1" have
an increasingly sharpness for the high B to C sharp - but the Aristocrat
of the 30s with a neck marked "01"play in tune. The body from the neck to
the bow is of exactly the same dimensions for the two models, the only
difference in the taper is in the first part of the neck. The "01" neck of
the Aristocrat has a slim, nearly parallel taper for the first 5 cm, the
"1" neck has a fatter more tapered construction. The result of this is
that every mouthpiece I tried - including the original Buescher from the
20s ! - play sharp for these tones on the "1" neck and in tune on the "01"
neck for both the instrument models. It eventually showed up that it was
more the volume of this part of the neck, not the taper in its self that
gives the intonation. Therefor the insertion of a flexible, sticky part
of a tube at the right spot will give a correction to the intonation. To
avoid a "spit lock" a part of the tube circle should be cut away and it
should be fixed against the roof of the neck. If the piece is too big or
you place it too close to the octave vent, the high A will be flat. If
the piece is too small, the correction of the high B, C and C sharp will
be too little
It seems that this intonation anomaly also is a problem with other
saxophones from the 20s.
The "tube trick" is only a temporary fix. After finding the correct spot
for the correction and the volume reduction that is needed , I've fixed it
permanent with a thin layer of a metal containing epoxy. To do this you
have too have some custom tools, experience and a strong nerve.
Another problem of these saxophones is the hissing high A. This has
something to do with the construction of the octave vent and not the neck
taper. But the fix of this is another story.
MojoBari
would show up as the palm keys being flat when the rest of the horn is
in tune and while using a proper embouchure. This agrees with the
Physics described in the Ferron book. I have heard highly talented
mouthpiece designers/refacer as well as players state that sharp high
notes are due to too small a chamber. Others experiances agree with
mine that the opposit is true. There are too many in either camp to
discount that something funny is going on here. I just dont know what.
You just need to get an electronic tuner and several mouthpieces and/or
some putty to play with chamber volume and play around with it to get
an emperical opinion. Just make sure you are not biting and lipping
notes all over the place. Keep doing MP alone checks on your
embouchure support.
I also susspect that one's individual oral cavity size plays a role in
which chamber size works on a sax.
P. Tung
intonation sounds really interesting -- never heard that suggested on this
topic before, here or elsewhere. Anybody else know (or speculate)
anything about that?
Also is it possible that one has to speak a little more specifically about
models and vintages to identify intonation tendencies/difficulties on old
horns? I have a 6M alto that has the flatness in the high-B and upward,
and a 220xxx Chu tenor that has the opposite intonation issue (i.e.
sharpeness in same range).
FWIW of the half-dozen or more mpc's I've tried, a rubber Berg (.95/2/SMS)
plays the closest on the 6M. A vintage (large-chambered) Link seems to
help alot with the Chu's intonation issues. I do know my Chu neck has
characteristics very different from 10M necks made not very many years
later. If I put a 10M neck in my Chu (have had a couple of opp's to do
this), the horn plays in tune, but the tonal color changes considerably
(loses some volume and some focus -- but this must be also due to the fact
that I'm used to the Chu neck).
One thing I wonder is whether intonation issues on the vintage Conns have
alot to do with the way people tend to set the key heights on them.
Players tend to choose old Conns for the sound, right? Is it possible
that Conns almost uniformly tend to be adjusted with bell key cups set too
open -- especially low 'C' -- causing an intonation incongruity between
upper and lower registers?
MojoBari wrote:
P. Tung
"P. Tung" wrote:
Andreas Parnow
schreibt:
>What MojoBari said about oral cavity possibly having some bearing on
>intonation sounds really interesting -- never heard that suggested on this
>topic before, here or elsewhere. Anybody else know (or speculate)
>anything about that?
-Big snip-
Try the following:
Play high (palm) D on soprano and change your oral "chamber" from very big to
very small. After a short time of pratice you should be able to detune the note
for about 50 cent without changing your embouchure.
Also you can move the pitch up and down a bit with only using your larynx (like
singing very high or low notes). It's good if there is only a small correction
needed. It's a way of correcting the pitch without changing the sound with
alternate fingerings.
Many greetings
Andy