Peter & Paul Weneger
Moustach Joe
Cletes Goblirsch
Len Bekwar
Ernie Kucera
With the exception of Kucera, they were pretty awful and not helped a bit by the pittiful sound
quality where one basically heard the bass horn/tuba, and other things save for the concertina or
button box, a lot quieter unless the pitch got up there.
There seems to be a lack of skill in harmony when there's multiple horns, horn and a reed, or two
reeds.
Drummers did little but tap the snare on the beat with little else save for a cymbal thrown in here
and there.
Goblirsch had what IMHO was the worst version of the Clarinet Polka I've ever heard. Not even the
right melody.
Bsckwar's folks couldn't play together, timing, timing, timing...
Yeah, I'm being critical so let me say I've played in a polka/dance band(5
piece-drums,accordion,piano, sax/clarinet, tumpet) and play piano, some organ, guitar and
mandolin(in a bluegrass group) so I think I've got a bit of musical experience and knowledge.
Note, I'm not talking of style either, German, Czech, Polish, Lithuanian, Honky, etc.
--
Robert
Well Shit -- you should be on the BJ Show...get on asap...I'm rootin'
for ya...
MS
Most of the bands you dismiss here as "pretty awful" have
exceptionally distinguished records of achievement, as a brief Google
check will show: The first page of entries on "Moostash Joe"
Spellerberg features articles that proclaim him to be "a legend" and
"an icon" ( Most bands would of course give their left-- - - - to be
thought of or written about in this way ) . Numerous Google and
youtube entries on the Wendinger ( not "Weneger"' ) Bros. and sound
samples of Cletus ( not "Cletes") Goblirsch ( who, incidentally was
featured in an art film , The Toilers and the Wayfarers, showcasing
the unique musical culture of New Ulm,Minnesota, the home of these
artists ) ,indicate pretty clearly that your assessment of these
artists' quality is just as inaccurate as your consistent misspelling
of all their names. Both Cletus and the Wendingers, it's important to
note, are concertina virtuosos , as well as bandleaders, entertainers
and polka broadcasters who have served the field and their communities
with distinction for decades and deserve much better than these
misguided putdowns.
This "critique" of all of these prominent Midwestern artists
reminds me of another post a while back in which someone with little
or no musical achievement of record declared Dennis Polisky and Hank
Guzevich, two of the greatest artists in the "Polish" field, to be
inferior "disappointments" : Of course virtually everyone on this site
knew better and that writer simply succeeded in exposing his own mean-
spirited ignorance. Readers of this page probably aren't as familiar
with the Midwestern German and Czech-style artists you have just
panned but , ironically, you have now given them a good opportunity to
learn of their considerable merits and achievements. Of course the Big
Joe episode you refer to is 20+ years old ( the Wednesday/ Thursday
programs are the recently filmed shows these days, and Saturday nights
are old reruns) and the sound then was less than ideal, but this
certainly isn't the bands' fault. In addition to attacking the bands,
of course you have a crusade going on against the Big Joe show: Many
writers have already responded appropriately to the "anti-BJ" attacks
by saying i.a. "If you don't like it , you don't need to watch it"
and, as MS notes here, "If you can do any better, go for it." I
concur : Say what you will, Big Joe ( and the countless bands that
offer him their services) renders an enormous and unique service to
polka music ---- and , to date, no one else in the field , whether in
the Americas or anywhere else on the planet, comes even remotely close
to equaling this achievement : To all of this, once again the old
Arabic-derived German saying applies perfectly: "The dogs bark -- and
the caravan passes" : Some do the work, and demonstrate creativity,
while others just complain and whine. In the long run, the positive
achievements are what matter.
while it's easy for you to sit there and say,, "If you don't like it , you don't need to watch it",
one can't not watch it and hear what those bands are, or aren't.
I've been listening to polka music since I was a kid in the 50's(my Dad had it on the radio on
Sunday's) and as I said, I've played in a band, which makes my listening something like 59 years in
the Midwest and until these bands where on BJ, I'd never heard of them...
--
Robert
At the moment, I don't have or play in any band regularly due to health issues, but I'm planning on
a band in the near future and before I'd be on BJ, he'd have to pay the band, or do something in a
big town nearby.
Funny, with all the bands here, you don't see BJ coming to say, Milwaukee, Chicago, or Green Bay to
to tape. Why might that be?
--
Robert
>
> I've been listening to polka music since I was a kid in the 50's(my Dad had it on the radio on
> Sunday's) and as I said, I've played in a band, which makes my listening something like 59 years in
> the Midwest and until these bands where on BJ, I'd never heard of them...
> --
> Robert- >
>
Well, I've been watching people play poker since the 50's, and even
played poker in the past with many other poker players, so, I'm gonna
head out and become a poker superstar on TV's "World Poker Tour" --
I've seen those guys play on TV -- they suck
Funny thing that you mentioned Green Bay because Big Joe was going to
do a TV taping there a few years ago. A weekend and location was set
up with band lineups, and the pin was pulled on the operation with no
explanation as to why it was done.
I will say this, after all of the shows that have been recorded for
the Big Joe Show, you would think the sound engineers for the
production would have figured out how to run sound and edit it for
broadcast so it does sound decent. I don't get RFD on cable, but I
have seen some of the shows, including the one recorded when I played
with Roger Majeski & The Harmony Kings, and there is a lot to be
desired for the sound. Bad sound guys can make a good band sound bad
and a good sound man can make a bad band sound somewhat good (talent
does come into the equation at some point.) From what I have seen and
heard, there are not many bands on the Big Joe Show that do sound good
because the quality of the production itself is lacking.
Big Joe is only in it for the money. Most of these bands he doesn't
know from Adam and could care less who they are, just as long as they
fill a spot in his lineup for the TV tapings. He rips bands off by
having them on his show and demanding all of their recordings so he
can pirate their recordings and sell them to make more money. He is a
crook. I know first hand because when we played for him in Minnesota
at the Medina Ballroom he had a ton of recordings there, many of which
I knew were copies that were not authorized by the original artists.
Oh, and the bands, at least most of them, do not get paid anything for
playing at his dances. He pumps the bands so full of the "It's about
the exposure you'll get to over (pick a number) households." So you
tell me, is it worth it to go and play for the Big Joe Show? Hell
no! Again, these comments I have made are based upon my personal
experiences and the experiences of other bands that have been shared
with me. I hope this has been an eye-opener for some folks. I'd love
to hear your comments about the matter.
Curt Traska
Curt Traska
Here Here !! I Think I'm educated in the field, but, Joe's knowledge
is vast...
<<Mike Surratt, to me your humor
> never gets old. �I'm glad to see you like to have fun. �
Thanks VERY much -- made my day! Keep on posting your thoughts Curt !!
<<
And Robert, I
> think you need to listen to more polka music. �There is a lot of it
> out there and for someone from the Midwest to say they have never
> heard of The Wendingers or Clet Goblirsch on a polka radio show before
> just blows my mind (note: Even though I am very partial to Polish
> style polkas, I have listened to other styles of polka music and try
> to learn something from each style, band, musician, etc. to broaden my
> polka horizons a bit. �People, I have found in general, need to listen
> more to music to understand it better. �Being a music major in
> college, that is something that they don't teach. �I should rephrase
> that; they tell you to listen to all of the classical music you can
> get your hands on, maybe some musical theatre, and that's about it.
> Modern music seems to sicken these teachers for some odd reason! �Just
> remember, good music is good music is good music no matter what genre
> or style. �There is good and bad music out there, along with good and
> bad bands/performers. �You just need to listen to all of them and
> decide which ones you like and by their recordings and listen to them
> at home and attend their performances/concerts/dances to let them know
> you like their music. �I've reached my typing limit for the day! �I
> said good day!
>
> Curt Traska
Well Said -- I shared the entertainment schedule and saw The
Wendingers in person at Ironworld in MInnesota -- they are loved by
the folks up there and I'm sure the have fans throughout the midwest
that rival any east coast band!
Mike
The Wendingers are a very popular band in the Midwest and they do have
a nice sound as do many other bands in the Midwest.
Part of the problem with the Big Joe show are the bands who seldom
play but jump at the chance to put their mom and pop band on TV. They
go on TV unrehearsed or can't hold a tune. How about some of the
orchestra bands who really don't play polkas but can get on national
TV by playing some sheet music while nobody is on the same note? But
that's part of the draw too. There's people who hate polka music who
watch the show to see and hear those bands. That's wrecking it for
everyone else who have the great bands. This issue confirms to the
general public that polka music isn't any good.
Joe R. might not agree with me because he loves and appreciates so
much Big Joe does. However, one does have to admit that the reduced
quality of the show's overall appearance does hinder the advancement
of polka music more than enhance it. Historical value doesn't carry
through when the loss of quality is greater than polka music history
being made.
Beside the bands, there's other issues too with the show. There's the
people who wear clown outfits, there's the guy with the long tie down
to his knees, and Abraham Lincoln's look-alike often makes an
appearance too.
Given all the above, people still love to watch the show. They enjoy
screeching in horror at the missed notes or the fact they can see 5 or
6 people on stage but only hear 2 of their instruments. People love
to watch themselves dance and they can call up their friends and
family across the country to tell them to watch them on national TV.
There's the bands from 20 or more years ago and we can smile and point
out how big their sideburns were or the fact they are still playing
strong today.
There are the higher quality shows like Jimmy Sturr's show and there's
a high quality show that would be nice to see on national
TV......Pennsylvania Polka (although they are off the air now in their
area?) but there's nothing like the Big Joe Show. Whether that's good
or bad is in the eye of the beholder.
I for one do like to see the bands I couldn't see otherwise. As for
the bad bands or bad sounding bands, I flip the channel until the next
band is on to see how they are. Sometimes there's some great and
wonderful surprises in the show and that's what keeps me watching it.
Curt, a reasoned reply to be sure, both of them. I've listened to polka's on the radio since I was
a kid in the 50's when my Dad had the polish stations on as we lived in Chicago. I heard Wally,
Hi-Notes, Wojeck, Adamczyk, Capt. Stubby, Eddie Korosa, Zima, Lush, Ron Terry's TV show,
International Cafe TV show, Chet Guliniski, Johnny Hyzny, Bomba, Dutka, Versatones, Yankovic and I
suppose others but those come to mind. However, I never heard the Wedingers or Goblirsch because I'd
guess they were not considered polish bands and if they were on the radio in Minnesota, Iowa etc.,
my Dad didn't listen and later I never heard them either on the radio. I've played in a band some
years back, but it was only together for a few years and didn't get to record. I also listen to a
lot of folk, country, and classical as well along with playing seven instruments. It's not like I'm
an inexperienced musician. More I'm a musician with an opinion, one that just doesn't accept
everything that comes along where they claim to be a "polka band" no matter how good all in the name
of promoting polkas. Bad bands, no matter how they sound bad, don't help polka music. You can
explain all you want, but most listeners don't care why something is bad and often they can't tell
you why, but they know it's bad and that's all that matters. Good polka music like almost any is
music played from the soul/heart and I just don't hear that in these bands on BJ. They sound like a
group of folks trying to play together. "Trying" is the operative word. Further, I think BJ does
polka music a disservice as he mostly features czech bands and slovenian with little nod to other
styles. Most of the drummers are beaters too and I hate to single them out, but they just sit there
tapping on the snare and a cymbal once in a while. No rolls, little variety and bringing something
to the effort. Most arrangements are unimaginative, save for the better stuff from Grebnick or
Kucera who have some dynamics and feeling in the playing. Heck. for that matter todays bands have
little dynamics. They all play all the time, even when someone in the band is singing. I'd love to
see a band like what the good bands used to be, Trumpet, Clarinet/Sax, Drums, Accordion, Piano,
String Bass and a vocalist. The combination of piano playing chords along with the drummer(doing
more than just beating or tapping along) and the Bass was the foundation while the trumpet-clarinet
played the song along with piano or accordion solos by good players. We don't see anything like that
but perhaps I'm biased since that was the "Chicago Style" which was faster than the upper midwest
style which was more German based and the Eastern Style which was a faster tempo than the Chicago
Style, but I digress.
Listening to BJ's show and even allowing for bad sound, they still weren't so hot. Timing, being
tight and so on just weren't there. As I said Eddie Kucera sounded pretty good with the bad sound
work and every time I hear Al Grebnick I like his band as well, but most seem like hobby bands doing
this BJ thing to think they're going to become stars. I'm not so sure.
--
Robert
Curt wrote:
> Hey Robert,
>
> Funny thing that you mentioned Green Bay because Big Joe was going to
<SNIPPED> Big Joe is only in it for the money. Most of these bands he
doesn't
> know from Adam and could care less who they are, just as long as they
> fill a spot in his lineup for the TV tapings.
>Curt Traska
Uh ? Just for money ?
If so, either he is stupid, or using it as a tax write-off for money from
somewhere else.
Because nobody connected with Polkas is getting filthy rich from the
profits.
Some are lucky enough to make pocket money, but there are far more lucrative
and easier ways to make a buck.
However I'll be glad to hear about those in Polkas who do it,...simply out
of love.
Bands that play ALWAYS for free,....at weddings, where there is no profit
involved.
Street/park festivals, where there is no general admission charged.
Or even just putting together an "electronic album", and giving the music
away on the net to everyone for free.
Or how about all the bands/musicians who take bookings, but say, "at the
end of the night just give us whatever you feel like"
Oh sure, some bands may make the occasional exceptions, and do the above
once or twice a year.
But not on a regular basis.
I'll be one of the first to admit Big Joes shows are about the quality of
local public access cable shows.
But it is broadcast nationally.
And I don't see a whole lot of better Polka Shows out there.
Of course there is no reason you can't start your own National Polka show,
on RFD or one of the mainstream networks.
You can make as much as you claim Joe is making, or perhaps more.
Fox would probably even do one where you take a bunch of polka bands and put
them in one house, then tape their lives for a week or two.
Or put them on an island, and have them vote off the worst player every
week.
Or how about WWF,...oops sorry, WPWF (p for polka) ALL STAR POLKA WRESTLING.
Where two polka musicians duke it out in a ring, to the strains of "beer
barrel polka" playing, and people dancing in the background
With IPTV gaining acceptance weekly, you could even put it on the net, using
your own virtual network and broadcast world wide.
That would sure teach that greedy Big Joe,.....a thing or two.
Thanks to Mike and Curt for the kind words to me-- I return the
compliment : You guys , and many others who contribute to these sites,
also have a lot of experience , talent and knowledge that I lack ,
and I enjoy and benefit from all these contacts with you,too..I'm very
happy that you think I contribute something worthwhile : This really
helps make my life worth living. .
I think Micky wrote a beautiful, informative and well-reasoned
piece on the pros and cons of the BJ show that gives us much food for
thought---and, as in the previous discussion on Big Joe, Amun has also
come to Joe's defense with excellent points. Both made the point, in
different ways, that ,whatever the imperfections of BJ's shows,or of
some of the the bands that perform on them, this show alone makes it
possible for people around the country to see and hear bands and
festivals from all over, many of which are excellent----As both of
them have said, if a viewer dislikes any given band ( or even the
whole show , for that matter ) ,he/she simply needs to change the
station...and of course if anyone were able to create more such
programming , that would be great, too---but evidently that's not easy
to do, since, despite all the talk, no one has ever succeeded in doing
so to date.
There is one exception ( mentioned by Micky as a high quality
show ) ,the J. Sturr show. Despite its high technical quality and
polish and Mr. Sturr's prominence, however, this show does not seem to
enjoy the high profile and popularity of BJ's program . Micky has
really touched on many of the reasons for this, I think -- I won't
repeat them all, but would note again that BJ's show brings us
countless bands from all around the nation, playing every conceivable
style --- and virtually every episode brings not just one band , but
numerous bands playing at popular festivals around the country into
our living rooms. Yes, Joe has featured more Czech than Polish (etc.)
to date, but the Buffalo tapings are about to change that in a big
way: Just as he did with his recent excursion to "polka Texas," Big
Joe continues to surprise us ---with all its imperfections, I sure do
continue to think that his show is unique and great.
Robert's repeated nostalgia for a band that plays in a certain way
( with "dynamics" and instrumentation that are precisely to his
liking ) is touching --- I guess that , in a way, many of us can
relate to his search for a favorite band or bands/ style or
styles...but , as Mr. MS said to another recent writer who was
lamenting what he thought was a decline in polka quality these days,
art ( like life ) doesn't stand still : Like the larger world in which
we live, the polka world has a lot to offer in terms of color and
variety , and I think we tend to lose an awful lot if we get too stuck
on the idea that a certain older style ( like that of some upbeat
Chicago bands of several decades ago, which he mentions ) ,
instrumentation and "dynamic" are the only ones that have merit.---I
admit that I used to do that , too, to a great extent ( and probably
still do at times ) ---but my musical enjoyment ( and creativity, as
well, I think) have increased greatly since I begin to open up to and
explore many styles, and I actually have the Big Joe show to thank for
introducing many of these styles and performers to me ( at little or
no cost and without having to make the almost unthinkable effort and
sacrifice of travelling constantly to Nebraska, Oklahoma, Colorado,
Texas,etc. etc. to make these discoveries ) : For this , too,I'll
aways be grateful to him.
Mr. Rogers...a reasoned reply. Perhaps I haven't stated what I mean very well. While BJ's sound
quality is relatively inexcuseable and the video quality pretty horrible, lets more or less forget
that.
I suppose what I really mean in more plain language is that while BJ does mostly show the Czeck
style along with some others, mostly I happen to think the bands are not showing very good
musicianship. That because the quality of band he gets are the ones who will play for free.
And we all know what you get for free, don't we?
Tonite's BJ show had four bands...the best of which was his brother, Lenny.'s band. They were pretty
good and not shown well by the crappy sound. The accordion player mostly doing the BS pretty much
overpowered the 2 trumpets and clarinet. That's pretty amazingly bad sound with all the mikes they
appear to have on the band. Bands like this recorded on a wire recorder could sound better.
While the various styles is a good thing, I still go back to the quality...this stuff really doesn't
show any band to it's best, if some of these bands even get to that level. I know I'd be embarrassed
to play in a band that sounded like some of these on the show.
I look forward to the stuff from Buffalo. I hope those bands are shown better.
So much is said here about folks not coming out to polka dances, the crowd aging and so on. If folks
who don't go to these dances hear the stuff on BJ, I'd guess some, if not many, won't either since
the sound is so bad. The average consumer may not be able to verbalize why something it not what it
should be, but they still know it. it works that way for many things in the marketplace and
advertising. Good things sell themselves for the most part.
I've also, in other threads, spoken of a lot of today's bands, at least here in the midwest and out
east, that play the honky/push style that is so prevalent. Lots of bands have two trumpets out
front, a clarinet ragging scales, a concertina, drums. bass and an accordion doing a bs to help
drive things and sometimes even a concertina. On a vocal they all play and you can't hear the vocal.
But with so many bands having this or similar instrumentation and sound, it's no wonder folks may
not come out. Why go if what you're going to hear is the same style,again and again, and again? I''
get heat for saying that, but the fact remains it's hard to get folks out even for the polka dances
that are affordable and often have great food, are in a nice hall and so on. The other thing is
promote....but it's hard to promote when you don't have something different to present than your
competition. That goes for just about anything since differentiation is the name of the game and
that's what you're calling the "nostalgia" of the older bands I refer to did have. Different sounds,
arrangements, instrumentation, vocals and songs(one's that sounded like polkas, not two-steps) and
they were great musicians too. The other thing is that just tonight, I'd love to hear a song I
knew...and for all the polka's I know and play there was one who's partial melody I recognized.
otherwise mostly some pretty mediocre stuff.
IF you lower the quality bar and enjoy most anything that comes along, where is the yardstick of
what is good? The high-water mark gets lower and lower.
I'm not looking for nostalgia, I'm looking for good, solid bands, playing good arrangements, backing
up vocals well and all the stuff that makes up good musicianship.
As micky said, folks love to watch BJ's show. But other than Jimmy Stuff(who is more a big-band
polka sound like FW) it's the only thing out there. Could that be why they watch...that they're
thirsty for this genre and there isn't much else on TV? We can see BJ must be doing better since
the commercials are better. Tonight Geico insurance, the nail clipper and sham-wow infomercials etc.
and who makes the money? Not the bands it's been said.
--
Robert
I have been following your interesting discussion since I sometimes
watch BJ, usually by periodically tuning in to find a good band with
good audio. It makes a good commercial stuffer for other programs
except in the rare instance when the enite BJS is filled with good
bands...and it does happen.
I think a few things were missed in the discussuion (or perhaps I
missed them).
1) I saw the Rich band on the show tonight and, yes, you could not
hear the horns. I believe that this is a segment that was recorded
long ago. With BJ shows being edited and sometimes re-edited by
segment, performances years apart can be included with vastly
different production personnel. It will be interesting to see if the
Buffalo segments have better audio than those that were recorded many
years ago.
2) RFD-TV, the network on which the BJS appears, is operated by a
contractor. The firm that ran RFD-TV was located in Dallas. They lost
the contract and production moved to a company in Tennessee
(Nashville, I think). The Sturr shows that originated in a studio
where produced by this second company. However, I believe that the BJS
is produced by BJ's own production company. Thus, the change in who
runs RFD-TV likely had little effect.
3) Someone expressed wonder that big city bands were seldom, if ever,
included. Understand that the mission of the RFD network is to serve
the rural market. In this regard, the Buffalo event may be a test to
see if they can increase their viewership.
4) Though I am not privy to the numbers, I believe they need to
increase their viewership. Recently, they had a promotion to give away
1,000,000 free (you pay shipping) polka CDs. They promoted it forever
and I will guess that they never gave away a million CDs or perhaps
did so with great difficulty. At the end, they were asking people to
request more than one to give to their friends. I will guess they were
trying to prove to RFD-TV management that they had 1,000,000 viewers
and were likely unsuccessful at this.
Maybe some more informed reader has more concrete names and numbers
about what are mostly only my guesses or actual events that have
become fuzzy in my memory.
For all its faults, the BJS is only one of two nationally distributed
polka programs (at least that reach as far west as Colorado). The
other is Jimmy Sturr but a Sturr program, while superior in almost
every way to the BJS, frequently includes few if any polkas. I love
C&W, Big Band, Zydeco, etc. but I wouldn't call the JSS a polka
program. It would be great if we had one high-quality natioanally-
distributed multi-ethnic polka program. It sounds like a PBS program!
Does the existence of the BJS and the JSS stand in the way of this new
program? Probably not the JSS since it isn't really a polka program.
Can sponsors be found that choose not to advertise on the BJS or the
JSS to reach a rural audience but would like to reach the ethnic-
American markets? All of this is over my head. Perhaps one of you
would like your own national show. How about Mike Surratt? Are you out
there Mike?
Good discussion.
Claude
Nice, interesting letter, Claude---full of intriguing considerations.
As for a national MSPS ( Mike Surratt Polka Show) --- what a wonderful
idea! ( We already had a preview of what it would be like in the video
of his outstanding performance at Lincoln Center ^-^ ) --- Gee, our
group might even play on it for free ( !?!?---if he let us?---But
would that be setting a bad precedent??- :) ) --- Imagine an opening
like "From the nation's capital.....!" ---Just one request :
Please have it any other time than Wed. nite from 7-8 EST ---because
that's when I, like many others , tune into the BJS....
Come On Guys -- Like I have extra time?? I will say this -- melody
drummers would not be allowed on my show ::smile::
Off to do a solo Oktoberfest Gig at Turf Valley in Baltimore today
(10/18) and then come one come all to the Largest Oktoberfest in
Virginia next weekend 10/23 & 24 (www.richmondoktoberfest.com)
followed by another performance at Blob's Park Sunday 10/25
(www.blobspark.net)
I booked 25 gigs out of 31 days in October this year -- it sure beats
working!
Micky, what you say is certainly true. I think you know as well as I for many
Polkas are kind of sneered at. Do you think it's perhaps they see things on
shows such as you describe as being on BJ and that in and of itself helps give
polka's a bad rap?
--
Robert