POLL: Are fan club singles ok to sell on ebay?
Rai
> no way
>
> You get some of PJ's music for free and then make money out of it. It's
> fucked in the arse, I hope they all never get a fanclub single again.
Yeah, but dude's got a point. The Ten Club doesn't offer some of the past
fan club singles, and if someone is a completist, they're going to want
those singles. The only way that the Ten Club could stop eBay sellers is to
sell ALL the old singles, which they clearly don't.
Of course...since the Ten Club IS a FAN club, I guess it's assumed that
anyone who gets a fan club single will probably want to keep it (since they
are a fan). If you are NOT a fan, you wouldn't sell it on eBay...but at the
same time, if you ARE a fan, you WANT the old singles, by hook or by crook.
It's a Catch 22 of Heller-ian proportions. (Ok, not really THAT dramatic,
but you get the idea...)
--
-Rai
"I never end my messages with a damn quote."
M. Lowerr
fan club single or the most recent.
There are people who say "it's wrong to profit off the band in ANY
way." As I'm sure some of you know I say that this is bullshit. As
much as I love Pearl Jam I am also a capitalist and I will, realizing
that some in this group will flame me now, (gasp) say that I like money.
You receive the single as a "gift" of sorts, but you can not deny that
you purchased this "gift" w/ your $10 for fan club membership. There
are some people I know who couldn't care less about the newsletters but
want the fan club singles. This "gift" however, is, in my view, no
different from my copies of "Ten," "Vs.," "Vitalogy," "No Code,"
"Yield," and "Binaural." I purchased them, and, because they have a
market value I can sell them if I choose to. Unless there comes a time
when signing some kind of form that says "I will not under penalty of
[...] sell my Fan Club singles" I think that anyone who receives a copy
of the single has a right to sell it.
The real question, as I see it, is "Is it right for someone to knowingly
get a newbie to pay $100 for the 1999 x-mas single." In this case my
opinion is that it may not be right, BUT, if someone out there is
willing to pay that for the single so be it. Perhaps they are ignorant
of the fan club and the availability of the single, but the fact remains
no one is forcing them to buy the single from seller x.
"Brian F. Huber" wrote:
>
> In light of a recent thread here denouncing someone for selling their
> fan club single on ebay, I just thought I'd ask everybody what their
> opinion on this subject is....it's been debated a few times, but I
> don't think it's gotten the full attention it deserves. So, I ask
> everyone to vote yes or no.....is it ok to sell the fan club singles
> on ebay?? All opinions are welcome. Here's mine:
>
> I did not become a member of the fan club until 1998. At the time, I
> was only able to get the 1995, 1997, and 1998 fan club singles from
> the fan club itself. Being the obsessive fan that I have become, I
> just had to have the other singles. Knowing that these were a rare
> find, and also knowing that most people who had them would not part
> with them, I figured ebay would be a good place to get them. So, I
> bid on and got the 1991, 1993, and 1996 singles. I managed to pick up
> the 1992 single at a local record store. Most cost around 25 to 30
> bucks, with the 1991 a little bit more.....which I paid happily
> because this one is the most limited.
>
> So, my question is......how are people supposed to get these singles?
> Most people will not trade them......or just give them away. The fan
> club provides no alternative to deter people from buying them on ebay.
> I can understand the fuss over CD-Rs for sale on ebay, because there
> is an alternative.....the trading community. But there is no
> alternative for the singles. They are a collectible, and all
> collectibles have secondary market values. I really don't see
> anything wrong with selling the singles on ebay.....I know that if it
> was illegal to do so, I would be SOL.
--
& Matthew Lowerr .. E.mail <mlo...@execpc.com> .. InstMsg: mlowerr .
& Public PGP @ .......... <http://www.execpc.com/~mlowerr/pgp.html> .
& Always looking for Pearl Jam CD-R Traders / B&P? Just Ask! .
&^....................................................................
& "So gather around/And see what the day brings/And see what makes .
& you laugh/And see what makes you sing/And never, nevermind/The .
& thing that people say/You'll never go away/You'll never go away/So .
& gather around/And see what the day brings/See what makes you laugh/.
& And what makes you sing" - Brad, _The Day Brings_ .
&^....................................................................
M. Lowerr
>
> no way
>
> You get some of PJ's music for free and then make money out of it. It's
> fucked in the arse, I hope they all never get a fanclub single again.
That fee includes the single.
As far as "hoping they never get a single again," good luck. Selling
stuff like this is a fairly big business and having multiple memberships
in the ten club is easy. Maybe they shut the sellers account down but
what's to stop him from creating a new name and sending in another $10
for another membership?
The single is a commodity and can be sold, whether you like it or not.
When you join the club you don't sign any kind of agreement that says
you will not sell the single.
Brian F. Huber
Matt Lobegeiger
You get some of PJ's music for free and then make money out of it. It's
fucked in the arse, I hope they all never get a fanclub single again.
matt
--
~Makes much more sense to live in the present tense~
e-mail: s35...@student.uq.edu.au
http://student.uq.edu.au/~s355795/
ICQ: 32620143
David Fresko
news:3972584d...@snews.accesscom.com...
> In light of a recent thread here denouncing someone for selling their
> fan club single on ebay, I just thought I'd ask everybody what their
> opinion on this subject is....it's been debated a few times, but I
> don't think it's gotten the full attention it deserves. So, I ask
> everyone to vote yes or no.....is it ok to sell the fan club singles
> on ebay??
Yes, it is. That's like asking whether it's okay to sell "Ten" or "No Code"
on eBay.
-Dave
--
Dave Fresko - d.fr...@worldnet.att.net
- dfr...@wesleyan.edu (for attachments)
Bootlists: http://members.xoom.com/Dfresko/home.htm
"Never do what you're told, there's plenty of time
for taking orders when you're old."
- Paul Westerberg
Matt Lobegeiger
>
> Matt Lobegeiger wrote:
> >
> > no way
> >
> > You get some of PJ's music for free and then make money out of it. It's
> > fucked in the arse, I hope they all never get a fanclub single again.
> That fee includes the single.
True, but how many of these sellers are going to sell a single for a
fraction of that $10. Not too many I would think, so there's still money
being made.
>
> As far as "hoping they never get a single again," good luck. Selling
> stuff like this is a fairly big business and having multiple memberships
> in the ten club is easy. Maybe they shut the sellers account down but
> what's to stop him from creating a new name and sending in another $10
> for another membership?
>
> The single is a commodity and can be sold, whether you like it or not.
> When you join the club you don't sign any kind of agreement that says
> you will not sell the single.
For sure. I'm not saying it's not possible for people to sell them. I
just simply think it sucks. It's almost exactly the same as the
bootlegging thing. People making money out of pj, it's low. But, yes, I
agree it'll never be totally stopped, but I think the ten club and
others are taking some good steps to try and prevent it.
> --
> & Matthew Lowerr .. E.mail <mlo...@execpc.com> .. InstMsg: mlowerr .
> & Public PGP @ .......... <http://www.execpc.com/~mlowerr/pgp.html> .
> & Always looking for Pearl Jam CD-R Traders / B&P? Just Ask! .
> &^....................................................................
> & "So gather around/And see what the day brings/And see what makes .
> & you laugh/And see what makes you sing/And never, nevermind/The .
> & thing that people say/You'll never go away/You'll never go away/So .
> & gather around/And see what the day brings/See what makes you laugh/.
> & And what makes you sing" - Brad, _The Day Brings_ .
> &^....................................................................
--
Matt Lobegeiger
>
> Matt Lobegeiger wrote:
>
> > no way
> >
> > You get some of PJ's music for free and then make money out of it. It's
> > fucked in the arse, I hope they all never get a fanclub single again.
>
> fan club singles, and if someone is a completist, they're going to want
> those singles. The only way that the Ten Club could stop eBay sellers is to
> sell ALL the old singles, which they clearly don't.
Good point.
>
> Of course...since the Ten Club IS a FAN club, I guess it's assumed that
> anyone who gets a fan club single will probably want to keep it (since they
> are a fan). If you are NOT a fan, you wouldn't sell it on eBay...but at the
> same time, if you ARE a fan, you WANT the old singles, by hook or by crook.
> It's a Catch 22 of Heller-ian proportions. (Ok, not really THAT dramatic,
> but you get the idea...)
I agree.
matt
>
> --
> -Rai
>
> "I never end my messages with a damn quote."
--
Matt Lobegeiger
>
> In my opinion, yes, it is ok to sell fan club singles, be it the first
> fan club single or the most recent.
>
> There are people who say "it's wrong to profit off the band in ANY
> way." As I'm sure some of you know I say that this is bullshit. As
> much as I love Pearl Jam I am also a capitalist and I will, realizing
> that some in this group will flame me now, (gasp) say that I like money.
>
> You receive the single as a "gift" of sorts, but you can not deny that
> you purchased this "gift" w/ your $10 for fan club membership. There
> are some people I know who couldn't care less about the newsletters but
> want the fan club singles. This "gift" however, is, in my view, no
> different from my copies of "Ten," "Vs.," "Vitalogy," "No Code,"
> "Yield," and "Binaural." I purchased them, and, because they have a
> market value I can sell them if I choose to. Unless there comes a time
> when signing some kind of form that says "I will not under penalty of
> [...] sell my Fan Club singles" I think that anyone who receives a copy
> of the single has a right to sell it.
I agree that it's your right to sell if you choose, but I just think
profiting from someone else's work is low. The same thing goes for Ten
and No Code and the others. You have a right to sell, but if you start
profiting from it, I say it's a no go.
my opinion.
>
> The real question, as I see it, is "Is it right for someone to knowingly
> get a newbie to pay $100 for the 1999 x-mas single." In this case my
> opinion is that it may not be right, BUT, if someone out there is
> willing to pay that for the single so be it. Perhaps they are ignorant
> of the fan club and the availability of the single, but the fact remains
> no one is forcing them to buy the single from seller x.
I agree here, but the intentions of the seller are not good IMO.
Definitely someone I wouldn't want to deal with.
Can I ask your stance on selling bootlegs, since it's a similar issue?
matt
>
> "Brian F. Huber" wrote:
> >
> > In light of a recent thread here denouncing someone for selling their
> > fan club single on ebay, I just thought I'd ask everybody what their
> > opinion on this subject is....it's been debated a few times, but I
> > don't think it's gotten the full attention it deserves. So, I ask
> > everyone to vote yes or no.....is it ok to sell the fan club singles
> > on ebay?? All opinions are welcome. Here's mine:
> >
> > I did not become a member of the fan club until 1998. At the time, I
> > was only able to get the 1995, 1997, and 1998 fan club singles from
> > the fan club itself. Being the obsessive fan that I have become, I
> > just had to have the other singles. Knowing that these were a rare
> > find, and also knowing that most people who had them would not part
> > with them, I figured ebay would be a good place to get them. So, I
> > bid on and got the 1991, 1993, and 1996 singles. I managed to pick up
> > the 1992 single at a local record store. Most cost around 25 to 30
> > bucks, with the 1991 a little bit more.....which I paid happily
> > because this one is the most limited.
> >
> > So, my question is......how are people supposed to get these singles?
> > Most people will not trade them......or just give them away. The fan
> > club provides no alternative to deter people from buying them on ebay.
> > I can understand the fuss over CD-Rs for sale on ebay, because there
> > is an alternative.....the trading community. But there is no
> > alternative for the singles. They are a collectible, and all
> > collectibles have secondary market values. I really don't see
> > anything wrong with selling the singles on ebay.....I know that if it
> > was illegal to do so, I would be SOL.
>
> --
> & Matthew Lowerr .. E.mail <mlo...@execpc.com> .. InstMsg: mlowerr .
> & Public PGP @ .......... <http://www.execpc.com/~mlowerr/pgp.html> .
> & Always looking for Pearl Jam CD-R Traders / B&P? Just Ask! .
> &^....................................................................
> & "So gather around/And see what the day brings/And see what makes .
> & you laugh/And see what makes you sing/And never, nevermind/The .
> & thing that people say/You'll never go away/You'll never go away/So .
> & gather around/And see what the day brings/See what makes you laugh/.
> & And what makes you sing" - Brad, _The Day Brings_ .
> &^....................................................................
--
M. Lowerr
> "M. Lowerr" wrote:
> > Matt Lobegeiger wrote:
> > > You get some of PJ's music for free and then make money out of it. It's
> > > fucked in the arse, I hope they all never get a fanclub single again.
> > That fee includes the single.
>
> True, but how many of these sellers are going to sell a single for a
> fraction of that $10. Not too many I would think, so there's still money
> being made.
I think you kind of misunderstood me. I am on the defending side of the
sellers. My point is they purchased this single, it wasn't just handed
to them. Anyone who purchases something has a right to sell it. I
don't care how much it's sold for, as long as the buyer is fine w/ the
price I am OK w/ the transaction.
M. Lowerr
<SNIP>
> I agree that it's your right to sell if you choose, but I just think
> profiting from someone else's work is low. The same thing goes for Ten
> and No Code and the others. You have a right to sell, but if you start
> profiting from it, I say it's a no go.
> my opinion.
newsgroup as a whole.
People are always talking about "profiting from someone else's work."
Take a look around, people profit from other peoples work all the time.
Should I boycott art galleries because they profit from people paying
admission to see someone else's art work? Should I boycott that venue
that is holding the "Art of Ames Bros." exhibit? They are certainly
profiting off of people coming to see Jeff and Barries work. Should I
be kicked off of e-bay because I profited off of an authors work when I
sold an older out of print book on e-bay for substantially more than
it's face value? Etc., Etc.
I think you sort of mis-understood me. I don't care if someone makes a
profit off of the single. I think that as long as the Buyer and Seller
have reached an "agreement" that they are boot fine with (read: the
buyer is ok w/ the price) let it be.
<SNIP>
> Can I ask your stance on selling bootlegs, since it's a similar issue?
Sure. I don't really care about people selling bootlegs either. I
believe that artists (not just Pearl Jam) should be compensated for
their work but I have an incredibly hard time believing that bootlegs
take any money away from bands.
"I may not agree w/ what you say, but I will fight to the death for your
right to say it." - Ben Franklin.
Rai
> Yes, it is. That's like asking whether it's okay to sell "Ten" or "No Code"
> on eBay.
Not even remotely the same, actually. The Ten Club singles are collectors
items. "Ten" and "No Code" are very much in print and available for anyone who
wishes to go out and buy it...that's why, whenever you see studio cuts being
sold on eBay, they never fetch more than $11, $12 bucks. Because anyone knows
that they can go out and buy studio albums.
The singles, however, are NOT studio cuts...they are rare collector items.
It's no different than selling out-of-print blues records...the only reason WHY
there seems to be a difference is that the singles are relatively fresh.
Twenty, thirty years from now, the prices for those singles (assuming, of
course, that Pearl Jam DOES go down in history, as is currently expected) will
shoot way the hell up. I don't know the law well enough to make any comments
on the legality of selling the singles, but I personally don't see anything
morally wrong with it. It's definately not the same as studio cuts, because
someone can go to a store and buy those. And it's also not the same as selling
bootlegged shows (unless they are silver-backed, in which case an argument can
be made about the collectors value of that), because anyone can copy a bootleg,
and provide artwork as well. I can get any of the fan club singles online in
mp3 format...hell, I could even get someone to burn me a CD with all the fan
club singles on it. But I'll never get the actual record itself from anyone on
here, so my only option would be to buy it. Since the Ten Club won't sell it
to me, I'd have to turn to eBay.
grey
Bottom line is Pearl Jam music.... should always be traded freely....
by the bands own wish... and Pearl Jam fans are like none other...
Pearl Jam artifacts have value to collectors... I don't see how
selling a single stomps on the love of the music... but... I wouldn't
sell MINE. ;)
grey
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:42:39 +1000, Matt Lobegeiger
<s35...@student.uq.edu.au> wretched out:
>"M. Lowerr" wrote:
>>
>> Matt Lobegeiger wrote:
>> >
>> > no way
>> >
>> > You get some of PJ's music for free and then make money out of it. It's
>> > fucked in the arse, I hope they all never get a fanclub single again.
>> 1. Define "free." Membership in the club is $10/yr. That's a fee.
>> That fee includes the single.
>
>True, but how many of these sellers are going to sell a single for a
>fraction of that $10. Not too many I would think, so there's still money
>being made.
>
>>
>> As far as "hoping they never get a single again," good luck. Selling
>> stuff like this is a fairly big business and having multiple memberships
>> in the ten club is easy. Maybe they shut the sellers account down but
>> what's to stop him from creating a new name and sending in another $10
>> for another membership?
>>
>> The single is a commodity and can be sold, whether you like it or not.
>> When you join the club you don't sign any kind of agreement that says
>> you will not sell the single.
>
>For sure. I'm not saying it's not possible for people to sell them. I
>just simply think it sucks. It's almost exactly the same as the
>bootlegging thing. People making money out of pj, it's low. But, yes, I
>agree it'll never be totally stopped, but I think the ten club and
>others are taking some good steps to try and prevent it.
>
>> --
>> & Matthew Lowerr .. E.mail <mlo...@execpc.com> .. InstMsg: mlowerr .
>> & Public PGP @ .......... <http://www.execpc.com/~mlowerr/pgp.html> .
>> & Always looking for Pearl Jam CD-R Traders / B&P? Just Ask! .
>> &^....................................................................
>> & "So gather around/And see what the day brings/And see what makes .
>> & you laugh/And see what makes you sing/And never, nevermind/The .
>> & thing that people say/You'll never go away/You'll never go away/So .
>> & gather around/And see what the day brings/See what makes you laugh/.
>> & And what makes you sing" - Brad, _The Day Brings_ .
>> &^....................................................................
_______________________________________________________________________________
"And much of Maddness, and more of Sin, and Horror the soul of the plot" e.poe
alt.drugs.hard, alt.drugs.hard.grey, alt.drugs.hard.*!
clubved
toaster that you don't need? Put it in a yard sale. Some jeans
you shrunk in the wash don't fit? Put it up for sale in a garage
sale. No problem. Period.
i bought my christmas ornament that eddie put up for auction for
a sweet relief benefit. i guess if the money is going to someone
else for their medical bills, it's supposed to be okay. but if i
ever got in a bind and found myself with medical bills that i
could not pay and i was "caught" putting my hand-made-by-eddie
ornament up for sale on eBay... i would get hate mail up to my
armpits.
"you're not a real fan! so what if you can't pay your rent!? who
do you think you are to find yourself having to get rid of your
collection???"
i look at that ornament that i won for $232.00 as an investment.
i'd be retarded not to think of it that way.
no... i am not putting it up for sale in the near future... but
who knows what the future will throw at me??
please. i can see if you see the same person selling fifteen
copies of last kiss on a cd they burned... but one person
selling their one copy of the vinyl does not make them sinners.
you don't know their situation. maybe they need extra cash now.
don't judge other people.
lizzie...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
clubved
Sorry. my last response wasn't directed at YOU. you were the
last person on the list when i hit reply to this message. i
didn't mean to sound like i was directing my comments at you.
Rai
> Hi, Rai.
> Sorry. my last response wasn't directed at YOU. you were the last
> person on the list when i hit reply to this message. i didn't mean to
> sound like i was directing my comments at you.
Whew! I was getting worried....I thought I was making the same point as
you were, but you (seemingly) were berating me. But it's all cleared
up, all is good, life goes on.
PS - I strongly agree with the last part of your prvious post...about
"selling one copy of a vinyl does not make them sinners", and that it
isn't the same as selling 15 burned copies of an official release.
Anyways, carry on......
David Fresko
news:3973368E...@spam.umich.edu...
> David Fresko wrote:
>
> > Yes, it is. That's like asking whether it's okay to sell "Ten" or "No
Code"
> > on eBay.
>
> Not even remotely the same, actually. The Ten Club singles are collectors
> items. "Ten" and "No Code" are very much in print and available for
anyone who
> wishes to go out and buy it...that's why, whenever you see studio cuts
being
> sold on eBay, they never fetch more than $11, $12 bucks. Because anyone
knows
> that they can go out and buy studio albums.
My message was lost in the somewhat sweeping nature of my statement. Of
course, selling Ten and the 92 x-mas single is different. However, they are
both official releases which someone pays to get. If you can't sell an x-mas
single, you shouldn't be able to sell an album, a single, a promo...
anything by the band.
This all-encompassing anti-selling garbage is ludicrous at times. Yes, it's
wrong to sell cdrs, especially those from mp3s, it's wrong to 2:1, but
selling official releases is okay.
ilnicki
interested in PJ, then why not sell the fan club singles for market
value. However, you should be removed from the Ten Club at that point.
You have no way of knowing whether the owner of an auction is in that
category, or the one who has multiple memberships so that they can sell
the extra singles for profit. It doesn't really matter; either way,
that person selling their fan club single should be banned from that
point on from the Ten Club, because either they're a scalper or they are
no longer a fan.
Laurie
Rai wrote:
>
> David Fresko wrote:
>
> > Yes, it is. That's like asking whether it's okay to sell "Ten" or "No Code"
> > on eBay.
>
> Not even remotely the same, actually. The Ten Club singles are collectors
> items. "Ten" and "No Code" are very much in print and available for anyone who
> wishes to go out and buy it...that's why, whenever you see studio cuts being
> sold on eBay, they never fetch more than $11, $12 bucks. Because anyone knows
> that they can go out and buy studio albums.
>
> The singles, however, are NOT studio cuts...they are rare collector items.
> It's no different than selling out-of-print blues records...the only reason WHY
> there seems to be a difference is that the singles are relatively fresh.
> Twenty, thirty years from now, the prices for those singles (assuming, of
> course, that Pearl Jam DOES go down in history, as is currently expected) will
> shoot way the hell up. I don't know the law well enough to make any comments
> on the legality of selling the singles, but I personally don't see anything
> morally wrong with it. It's definately not the same as studio cuts, because
> someone can go to a store and buy those. And it's also not the same as selling
> bootlegged shows (unless they are silver-backed, in which case an argument can
> be made about the collectors value of that), because anyone can copy a bootleg,
> and provide artwork as well. I can get any of the fan club singles online in
> mp3 format...hell, I could even get someone to burn me a CD with all the fan
> club singles on it. But I'll never get the actual record itself from anyone on
> here, so my only option would be to buy it. Since the Ten Club won't sell it
> to me, I'd have to turn to eBay.
>
AuroraMor
player, nor will I be getting one any time soon, if ever. Personally, I'm one
of those people who prefer the newsletters over the singles.
Would I sell them though? Nope. Actually I've given away the two that I've
received. But if I did decide I wanted to do so, I don't see why there should
be a problem with it because as someone pointed out -- I paid for my membership
and how is this really any different than selling my copies of PJ studio
releases?
dawn
Sunsoar
"ilnicki" <iln...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3973A8B2...@home.com...
That is the thing, I would LOVE to be able to get all the singles for free,
but seeing as I was too stupid to join early in my pearl-jam loving career,
I am going to have to try and buy them. If the person that is selling them
is just someone whose likes in music have changed I think that is ok because
that is the only way that current people who were too slow :-) or newbies to
get them. So that they will be fully appreciated. And I have to say that i
would be willing to pay for something so special...
So I guess I am a yes under the right circumstances
- Sunsoar
clubved
so if i decide to sell something that my mother had given me for
a birthday... say a schwinn stingray bike from the 70's complete
with original banana seat that has been in my basement for
twenty years...a bike that is worth a lot more to collectors
than what my mom had paid for it... my mother should disown
me???
(this is a response to the line about the ten club shouldn't let
you be a member anymore if you decide to sell a single on eBay.)
ilnicki
bikes, though...
If someone sells their single, either they are a scalper in it for the
money, or they are no longer interested in PJ. Either way, they
shouldn't be getting any more free singles. How can you argue with
that?
Laurie
ilnicki
and they strongly support trading, but do not like people profiting off
of them, and I think we should respect that.
Laurie
clubved
i had to initially pay a 10.00 fee to get and my mother gave me
the other one.
your reading comprehension sucks. i was using the bike story as
a comparison. i didn't say she did buy me a bike recently. i was
saying that what you said was compared to me finding a bike in
the basement that my mother bought me in the 70's and that i
didn't need it anymore and so i decided to put it up for auction.
no difference.
it's sad that you only see in an "either, or" kind of way...
either you don't like pearl jam or you're a scalper.
how about... or you don't really like ONE particular pearl jam
song or you're at a point where it's either your pearl jam
collection or your apartment... or you have two of the same
record, which is the case in my household...
you don't know everyone's situation. don't pretend to.
either you know me or you don't.
by the way...a scalper is someone who buys tickets to a show and
turns around and sells them for a profit...a bootlegger is one
who tapes a show and sells the copies for profit... not someone
who has a particular collectible and decides to unload the
original. what is the point of collecting something that won't
turn out to be worth something in the future?
imagine if everyone sat on their elvis collectables??
lizzie...
very greatful to the person who put the first christmas single
up for auction on eBay. because of that... my collection is
complete. it will go to my kids in my will because hopefully it
will be worth something to collectors when they get older.
clubved
the band and they strongly support trading, but do not like
people profiting off of them, and I think we should respect
that."
I think I've mentioned this before... Ed is always seen shopping
in used record stores. Suppose he found a rare Pete Townshend
Christmas single that was given out only to members of the Pete
Townshend fan club... should he or should he not buy it?
The bottom line is: The Ten Club sends out the Christmas
singles... that single becomes mine. It is mine to do with as I
please. It's a freedom of choice kind of thing. My record's
nobody's record but mine. You run your own record... let me run
mine.
Another bad analogy. I know. But it is kind of weird what people
fight for, isn't it?
You mention that the Fan Club should toss anyone caught selling
the singles on eBay or they should consider themselves not fans
anymore... but what about the people who BUY the records from
eBay? what do you suppose their punishment should be?
lizzie...
brian j
>Not a good analogy. I would suggest that your mother stop buying you
>bikes, though...
>
>If someone sells their single, either they are a scalper in it for the
>money, or they are no longer interested in PJ. Either way, they
>shouldn't be getting any more free singles. How can you argue with
>that?
>
>Laurie
>
>clubved wrote:
>>
>> so if i decide to sell something that my mother had given me for
>> a birthday... say a schwinn stingray bike from the 70's complete
>> with original banana seat that has been in my basement for
>> twenty years...a bike that is worth a lot more to collectors
>> than what my mom had paid for it... my mother should disown
>> me???
>>
>> (this is a response to the line about the ten club shouldn't let
>> you be a member anymore if you decide to sell a single on eBay.)
>>
Grn Eyes
Grn Eyes
that jazz, the singles are basically free gifts that PJ gives to their fans
as a thank you for sticking with them throughout the years.
M. Lowerr
>
> Not a good analogy. I would suggest that your mother stop buying you
> bikes, though...
>
> If someone sells their single, either they are a scalper in it for the
> money, or they are no longer interested in PJ. Either way, they
> shouldn't be getting any more free singles. How can you argue with
> that?
a little bit of money.
M. Lowerr
> The $10.00 is to cover postage fees and printing the newsletters and all
> that jazz, the singles are basically free gifts that PJ gives to their fans
> as a thank you for sticking with them throughout the years.
Paying $10 to be in the club. In my eyes, I am buying a single w/ my
fan club money and I know that a lot of other ppl. feel the same way.
Here's a question for you: Say I'm in the REM fan club as well and I
get their fan club single? Is it OK for me to sell this? I would be
willing to bet that most ppl. in this newsgroup would say yes, including
those who are so against selling the Pearl Jam single because I wouldn't
be profiting off of Pearl Jam. What if it was a Kid Rock fan club
single (i don't even know if there is such a thing)? Again, I bet the
answer would be yes, followed by a remark like because Kid Rock sucks.
Now, my question is why is it all right for me to profit off of these
artists? Because they aren't Pearl Jam? This is where the argument
seems to die w/ most ppl who are so against "profiting off of PJ." It's
ok to do it w/ anyone BUT PJ... If you are going to have this opinion
about it being wrong to sell these singles I think that it should be a
hard line "do not sell any artists fanclub merchandise" viewpoint or
else it's a bit hypocritical.
Angie: This isn't intended as a flame twords you -- it's just the end
of the current thread.
> > they arent getting free singles, they're paying 12$ for em
--
M. Lowerr
> It's different because the fan club single was a free gift from the band
> and they strongly support trading, but do not like people profiting off
> of them, and I think we should respect that.
>
It's not free -- I paid $10 for membership into the club. That's a
fee. The main reason I pay that fee is so that I can get the single.
If I decide that I want to sell it I can, it's my property.
Again, I remind you that when I join the ten club I do not sign any kind
of agreement that says I will never sell the newsletters, singles, etc.
Nor, does the single come w/ any big long legal contract that says this
is a gift to me and that selling the single breaches certain portions of
any agreement I signed when joining the club.
Also, you say that "they do not like ppl profiting off of them." Does
this mean that if a band has never made an official statement about
bootlegs I have your blessing to sell bootlegs of their performances?
Or what about this: Say I have a copy of Vs. that was released WITHOUT
A TITLE on it. As we all know these are rare. Is it OK for me to sell
that for significantly more than I paid for it? That sure has hell is a
profit off of something I did not create, yet I purchased it at a store,
it wasn't given to me, so it's all right to sell that, correct?
This whole argument that I was given a gift and therefor can not sell it
is quite frankly bullshit. I look at my singles as an investment and
there is a reason that I purchase an extra copy of each one from the Ten
Club when they are made available. Right now that reason is to have
mint condition, never played copies in my collection but at the same
time I am reasonable enough to know that they, especially the older
ones, have a collectors value and that at some point down the road I may
want or need to sell them. When and if that time comes I will have no
hesitation in selling them and I will still sleep well at night.
If that makes me any less of a fan in your eyes, well... so be it. The
fact is this is a Capitalistic society and my property is mine to do
what I please with it. If I want to use it as a frisbee w/ my dog I
can. If I want to spray paint it blue and orange I can. If I want to
sell it I can.
> AuroraMor wrote:
> >
> > I've never been an enthusiast for the fan club singles. I don't have a record
> > player, nor will I be getting one any time soon, if ever. Personally, I'm one
> > of those people who prefer the newsletters over the singles.
> > Would I sell them though? Nope. Actually I've given away the two that I've
> > received. But if I did decide I wanted to do so, I don't see why there should
> > be a problem with it because as someone pointed out -- I paid for my membership
> > and how is this really any different than selling my copies of PJ studio
> > releases?
> >
> > dawn
--
M. Lowerr
> You mention that the Fan Club should toss anyone caught selling
> the singles on eBay or they should consider themselves not fans
> anymore... but what about the people who BUY the records from
> eBay? what do you suppose their punishment should be?
Club via mail order after the fact?
Lizzie: I'm glad to see there's someone else out there who realizes
that the singles are a commodity.
M. Lowerr
> You paid the $10.00 to be part of the fanclub, not for the single....
I had to buy them from sellers and did so w/ a smile on my face.) that I
bought from the ten club via mail order. I paid for them, they weren't
a "gift."
One of the reasons the Ten Club is $10 is for that single -- your
membership covers costs. I have two memberships, why do I keep them
both active even during non tour years? For the extra single for my
collection.
> > the only difference is that pearl jam gave me one "present" that
> > i had to initially pay a 10.00 fee
--
Grn Eyes
advantage of other people here because PJ has been so generous with their
music. Case in point, allowing soundboards for the European tour to be made
available to the public for a reasonable amount, then allowing the Pearl Jam
community to trade these recordings. Not many bands would allow there live
shows to be released to CD then traded. Therefore, I'm more concerned that
people don't make money off of PJ because they have been so cool to us, the
fans. They are one of the most caring bands I've ever seen.
For the people who feel the need to sell their fanclub singles, they, in my
opinion don't have a right to be in the fanclub. Oh, and Kid Rock does
suck.
> "Free Gift" maybe, but you can not deny that you get this "gift" for
> Paying $10 to be in the club. In my eyes, I am buying a single w/ my
> fan club money and I know that a lot of other ppl. feel the same way.
>
> Here's a question for you: Say I'm in the REM fan club as well and I
> get their fan club single? Is it OK for me to sell this? I would be
> willing to bet that most ppl. in this newsgroup would say yes, including
> those who are so against selling the Pearl Jam single because I wouldn't
> be profiting off of Pearl Jam. What if it was a Kid Rock fan club
> single (i don't even know if there is such a thing)? Again, I bet the
> answer would be yes, followed by a remark like because Kid Rock sucks.
>
> Now, my question is why is it all right for me to profit off of these
> artists? Because they aren't Pearl Jam? This is where the argument
> seems to die w/ most ppl who are so against "profiting off of PJ." It's
> ok to do it w/ anyone BUT PJ... If you are going to have this opinion
> about it being wrong to sell these singles I think that it should be a
> hard line "do not sell any artists fanclub merchandise" viewpoint or
> else it's a bit hypocritical.
>
> Angie: This isn't intended as a flame twords you -- it's just the end
> of the current thread.
>
> > > they arent getting free singles, they're paying 12$ for em
>
Brian F. Huber
1.) Send $10.00, if you live in the United States, or
$12.00 if you live elsewhere. This fee will cover the
production and shipping costs of the Christmas single
and the newsletters.
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000 21:02:38 GMT, "Grn Eyes"
<Arie...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>You paid the $10.00 to be part of the fanclub, not for the single....
>
Brian F. Huber
Why do I have to pay a membership fee?
Membership fees help to cover the cost of production,
design and postage for the newsletters and
Christmas singles. The fee for international members
is $2 higher to cover international postage rates.
Personally, I would have a hard time paying the ten dollars if there
was no single included.
M. Lowerr
>
> Sorry, but the $10 barely covers the cost of the newsletter and
> postage. The single truly is a free gift, paid for by the band, not
> your $10 membership fee.
Bullshit. Lets think about this: You get two newsletters a year and a
single.
The fan club has thousands of members which means they can get BULK rate
on everything. Something like the last newsletter (the one that come
out last winter) probably cost around $1.50-2.50 each to produce plus
postage. Postage is less than $0.33/piece because as I'm sure you will
recall it is sent via bulk mail which means they got a reduced rate. So
that means at most this letter cost $2.83 to put out.
Assuming that all newsletters can be sent for about $3 that means $6 per
year per member is spent on newsletters. $4 is left for the single.
Studio time cost = nothing, they record in Stones studio. This means
there is $4 per member left to have the records pressed and do some post
production work. Again, nominal -- the boys are capable of doing post
production work and get bulk rate on pressing the records.
The only thing left to cover, assuming all $10 is used by the printing,
postage and single is salary for the two employees of the Ten Club.
This is a nominal fee. I say this becuase whether you want to believe
me or not Pearl Jam IS a corporation, there IS a Pearl Jam Inc. The
band is a business and as such has some payroll to deal w/.
And, as was pointed out before, the following appears on the Ten Club
Page:
" Why do I have to pay a membership fee?
Membership fees help to cover the cost of production,
design and postage for the newsletters and
Christmas singles. The fee for international members
is $2 higher to cover international postage rates. "
If all you got was two newsletters for you $10 would you join the fan
club. I doubt it. Personally, I know that as much as I love Pearl Jam
I would have one hell of a time spending $10 to get two newsletters,
especially because the newsletters usually aren't that big or full of a
lot of "earthshattering news." They are nice to get, yes, but they
alone do not merit $10 a year. That single is the reason many ppl are a
member of the fan club, and I'm sure that the band knows that. That
single is also why the fan club now costs $10/$12 a year instead of
$5/$7 a year, the cost of the singles was to great and the price was
passed back on to the consumer (you).
> As far as why PJ and not other bands, Angie's answer says it best.
See -- this is complete and utter bullshit. Maybe Kid Rock does suck,
maybe he doesn't. It doesn't matter. If you are going to tell me that
it's wrong for me to sell "gifts" (it's not) from Pearl Jam then it
should be equally as wrong for me to sell gifts from "Kid Rock," or even
gifts from my Grandparents. In all of these cases I would be profiting
off of the band, or profiting off of my relatives. Saying that it's
different w/ any other band because they "aren't pearl jam" or because
"i don't like them" is simply hypocritical.
> Laurie
>
> "M. Lowerr" wrote:
> >
> > Grn Eyes wrote:
> > > The $10.00 is to cover postage fees and printing the newsletters and all
> > > that jazz, the singles are basically free gifts that PJ gives to their fans
> > > as a thank you for sticking with them throughout the years.
ilnicki
postage. The single truly is a free gift, paid for by the band, not
your $10 membership fee.
As far as why PJ and not other bands, Angie's answer says it best.
Laurie
Brian F. Huber
from tenclub.net:
Why do I have to pay a membership fee?
Membership fees help to cover the cost of production,
design and postage for the newsletters and
Christmas singles. The fee for international members
is $2 higher to cover international postage rates.
Doesn't sound free to me.....straight from the horse's mouth.
Grn Eyes
fan mail, dealing with sorting out all the requests for 10 club seating at
the shows, sending out confirmations, etc.?
Robin H
>This is difficult. I would have to say that if you are no longer
>interested in PJ, then why not sell the fan club singles for market
>value. However, you should be removed from the Ten Club at that point.
>You have no way of knowing whether the owner of an auction is in that
>category, or the one who has multiple memberships so that they can sell
>the extra singles for profit. It doesn't really matter; either way,
>that person selling their fan club single should be banned from that
>point on from the Ten Club, because either they're a scalper or they are
>no longer a fan.
>
>Laurie
>
Hi Laurie,
I agree with you.
If someone is selling their fanclub singles on ebay, or any other
source for selling, it can be concluded they are no longer a fan of
the band and should be banned from receiving future fan club singles.
Robin
M. Lowerr
>
> Ok, who pays for the ten club's time in creating the news letters, answering
> fan mail, dealing with sorting out all the requests for 10 club seating at
> the shows, sending out confirmations, etc.?
As I said:
> > Assuming that all newsletters can be sent for about $3 that means $6 per
> > year per member is spent on newsletters. $4 is left for the single.
> > Studio time cost = nothing, they record in Stones studio. This means
> > there is $4 per member left to have the records pressed and do some post
> > production work. Again, nominal -- the boys are capable of doing post
> > production work and get bulk rate on pressing the records.
That covers the employee's. As far as creating the news letters that's
done by Jeff and Barry. IMO that doesn't count as a cost. Jeff is a
creative guy, so is Barry. Plus they already have the whole Ames Bros.
studios setup so it's not like money has been invested in creating
newsletters, they are simply using what they already have access to.
> > The fan club has thousands of members which means they can get BULK rate
> > on everything. Something like the last newsletter (the one that come
> > out last winter) probably cost around $1.50-2.50 each to produce plus
> > postage. Postage is less than $0.33/piece because as I'm sure you will
> > recall it is sent via bulk mail which means they got a reduced rate. So
> > that means at most this letter cost $2.83 to put out.
> >
> > Assuming that all newsletters can be sent for about $3 that means $6 per
> > year per member is spent on newsletters. $4 is left for the single.
> > Studio time cost = nothing, they record in Stones studio. This means
> > there is $4 per member left to have the records pressed and do some post
> > production work. Again, nominal -- the boys are capable of doing post
> > production work and get bulk rate on pressing the records.
--
FEEKlIIIIl
I wasnt gonna get into this but i just wanted to make one point. When you say
IS IT OK you mean morally right? Because legally there is no case whatsoever.
Its not like selling a bootleg because it IS a legal product and bootlegs are
not. So is it MORAL to sell gift someone gave you. I personally wouldnt sell a
gift, but ya never know who would. So morally, no its not cool to sell a fan
club single on ebay, but legally, yes its ok.
FEEKlIIIIl
a birthday... say a schwinn stingray bike from the 70's complete
with original banana seat that has been in my basement for
twenty years...a bike that is worth a lot more to collectors
than what my mom had paid for it... my mother should disown
me???>>
well of course if the item in question is no longer of use to you, then of
course, SELL IT.
FEEKlIIIIl
that jazz, the singles are basically free gifts that PJ gives to their fans
as a thank you for sticking with them throughout the years.>>
Printing and sending the newsletter adn shit like that probably does cost $10
per fan club member per year. My brother owns a local music magazine called
MAXIMUM INK in madison wisco, it costs him less than $.50 cents per magazine to
have printed. Now that has color and is about 32 pages which are 11x14. So less
than $.50 to print each one. Now if he had to send it at the VERY MOST would be
about $1 because of course you are sending in bulk mail. So i think its safe to
say the printing and sending of each fan club newsletter is less than $2 per
issue. And i think that is way high. But now once you take ALL the newsletters
they send AND all the other stuff they do, id say that fan club single is
pretty much a gift that is free. When you send in your cash to ten club, its
for the membership and NOT a single. It doesnt say PAY THIS CASH AND GET A PJ
SINGLE. That is just part of the package. $10 a year for a fan club is a good
deal. Shit i remember when the pj fan club was $5.
FEEKlIIIIl
people don't make money off of PJ because they have been so cool to us, the
fans.>>
Just out of curiousity, do you get mad at stores that sell pj t shirts or pj
posters and other legal stuff? It just seems when you say I DONT LIKE PEOPLE
MAKING CASH OFF OF PJ you mean ANY cash. Do you get mad at best buy for marking
up a pj cd? Or is it JUST illegal pj things or things pj gave to them for free?
I hope you dont mind people making good cash off of pjs legal stuff.
FEEKlIIIIl
and they strongly support trading, but do not like people profiting off
of them,>>
Actually pj LOVES when people profit off of them becuase that means they are
making cash also. Remember, you are saying NO ONE can make ANY cash off of pj,
but who is going to sell the posters, tshirts, cds and so on? PJ doesnt mind
people selling LEGAL pj items. Flat out. So it really becomes this moral issue
of selling the single. It IS a legal item from pj for someone to sell, and pj
LOVEs when companies sell their shit, they just dont want people selling the
bootlegs. Now, they dont want you selling the fan club singles either, but that
is a tightrope walk. Its not illegal, but maybe immoral. So selling a single is
borderline, but dont say THEY DONT LIKE WHEN PEOPLE MAK CASH OFF OF THEM. That
is what they are in the music biz for.
FEEKlIIIIl
clubved
players and have no use for records.
also... i joined the fan club for good seats at shows. yes, i
enjoy the forty-fives... but their MINE.
lizzie...
PS Matt... i'm glad to know that there is someone else here who
allows others to have a freedom of choice when it comes to what
is theirs. (i'm so borderline asking about what these people
think of the right to choose but... that's a different debate
that i really hate to be the one who brings it up.)
lizzie...
www.clubved.com/ticketmonster.htm
www.clubved.com/gallery.html
clubved
big debate about whether or not I was ripping off the band. The
shirts show the stickman flipping the bird at a sign that says
Ticketmonster. Anywho... some people were all disgusted that I
was charging for the shirts. I son't make a profit on them.
They're each hand painted one at a time. Anyway... most people
were all loving the shirts, but there were a few people who had
the... "you're making money off of the band..." attitude.
Well... I sent shirts to the band and took it as their blessing
for me to continue making them when I opened up my No Code vinyl
for the first time and saw my shirt in there.
If Pearl Jam cared about people making a buck off of their work,
I would have gotten papers from their lawyers... not the huge
surprise I got.
lizzie...
www.clubved.com/ticketmonster.htm
clubved
shirts that...
i have seen them up for auction on eBay and it flattered me that
i could make something that is seen as a collector's item. i
wasn't bullshit that someone was selling it.
who would i have been to tell them to remove it?
(i do admit that i wrote to the bidders telling them that i was
still selling them and not to go over the price that i sell them
for... i do look out for other fans.)
lizzie...
ilnicki
was a bit abrupt too. I apologize. The paragraph you both quoted does
say that the $10 *helps* cover the cost of everything (including the
salaries). But your point is taken. Personally, I join the Ten Club to
get access to fan club tickets. I do keep the singles, but I would pay
$10/year just for the tickets. To each his/her own. In your minds, you
are paying $10 for the single; I am paying $10 extra for good seats at
concerts. So be it.
The point of all this, is that the band, through the fan club, has
stated that people have been kicked out for auctioning the singles on
ebay, so I'm guessing they aren't happy with it. If people respect the
band, and appreciate all they do for us, I say you should respect their
wishes on this.
As for other bands, who really cares? I don't.
Laurie
clubved
are they selling COPIES of the program or just one original
program?
ilnicki
supposedly you respect, doesn't really like it when they're sold. If
you have no wish for the records, trade them or give them away, your
choice. The band feels they are a gift and like anyone who gives you a
gift, they are a little pissed when you sell it. I also don't think you
can compare this to the freedom of controlling your *own* body.
Laurie
clubved wrote:
>
> weird conclusion considering some people don't have record
> players and have no use for records.
>
> also... i joined the fan club for good seats at shows. yes, i
> enjoy the forty-fives... but their MINE.
>
> lizzie...
> PS Matt... i'm glad to know that there is someone else here who
> allows others to have a freedom of choice when it comes to what
> is theirs. (i'm so borderline asking about what these people
> think of the right to choose but... that's a different debate
> that i really hate to be the one who brings it up.)
>
clubved
collectable record... not a copy of a collectable record and
selling a copy of a computer (?) program that i designed. you
have an apple and an orange there.
and lamina (hi, there!).. as for the "for demo use only... not
for sale" i ALWAYS see people online bragging about how they
went to a record store and scored a demo copy of a single.
everyone always gives them the cyber high five. it's like
striking gold. it isn't illegal to sell an original collector's
item that you have in your posession. even if it says "not for
sale" on it. it's a collector's item. it's not a copy of one.
it's the actual one. (also... the fan club sells them for the
average price a single costs... like what? 2.00? 3.00? i don't
remember.) but if you found a christmas single at someone's
garage sale... would you call the cops or consider buying it?
i realize opinions vary. personally... i love my records (except
for that one with REM on the flipside. that is not a favorite
and never will be)... i would never sell my records. but i am
also not in a position where i can tell anyone else that they
shouldn't be selling their records.
i just want to also make it clear that my views are about the
average person who might have one extra record to sell... not
someone who went to newbury comics and bought each and every
copy of Last Kiss that they had for sale at 2.50 each and then
shows up on eBay and starts his bidding at 20.00 each.
lizzie...
ilnicki
them? If they are hand-painted and you sent them as a gift, why would
they jump to the conclusion that you were selling them, with or without
profit? Why would they send you letters from their lawyers for giving
them a gift?
They've made it clear that they don't like people selling bootleg stuff,
including t-shirts, CDs, singles. If you're not making a profit,
there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. And to FEEK, who's just
dying to start something, of course, I'm not talking about licensed
sales.
Laurie
clubved wrote:
>
> When I first started making my Ticketmonster shirts, there was a
> big debate about whether or not I was ripping off the band. The
> shirts show the stickman flipping the bird at a sign that says
> Ticketmonster. Anywho... some people were all disgusted that I
> was charging for the shirts. I son't make a profit on them.
> They're each hand painted one at a time. Anyway... most people
> were all loving the shirts, but there were a few people who had
> the... "you're making money off of the band..." attitude.
> Well... I sent shirts to the band and took it as their blessing
> for me to continue making them when I opened up my No Code vinyl
> for the first time and saw my shirt in there.
> If Pearl Jam cared about people making a buck off of their work,
> I would have gotten papers from their lawyers... not the huge
> surprise I got.
> lizzie...
> www.clubved.com/ticketmonster.htm
>
clubved
vinyl of sonic reducer? keep in mind that i have just about
everything i could want and plan on purchasing all of the shows
from this current tour.
trading is fine for some things. but you don't really want to be
an idiot about things that are going to be worth something in
time. even when you trade copies of shows, aren't you trying to
make even trades? i do my fare share of trading but even when
trading... people want first or low generation copies or the
trade is a no go. i'm all for trading. but this isn't a copy of
a show. this is something that is highly collectable.
you didn't comment on the fact that eddie shops in used record
stores. should he have to think twice about buying when he finds
a rare pete townshend item?
lizzie...
Brian F. Huber
I wasn't purposely trying to be hostile. The reason I started
this thread was to get a better idea of how people thought about this
issue, and I am finding out that people are very passionate about it.
People on both sides are making really strong points, and I really
hope this debate continues. I enjoy what you have to say.....so
please keep it up. Your tone was absolutely not "abrupt" and you have
nothing to apologize for, in my mind. I respect everyone's opinion,
and so far the debate has been pretty frictionless.....I hope it stays
that way.
Rai
> OK, you guys have your comparisons and examples. How about this one. I
> don't know if you guys know anything about programming, but I do so I'll
> use it as an example, it's not important anyway.
Let me preface my following statements with one simple fact: Computer
programs and music are not comparable. But I will attempt to reconcile this
silly example as well as I can.
Let's just pretend that YOU, as a computer programmer, are a very, very
famous man, and that anything you produce is considered more than just a
computer program, but is also something worth collecting. (This is where
the example first breaks down....computer programmers are not rock stars.)
Now...let's say that you write this program, you package it nicely, and sell
it to someone for $10.00. There is automatic demand for this packaged
computer program because YOU, the computer programmer, are a rock star
(again....this sounds far-fetched because computer programmers are not rock
stars). Now....the packaged computer program that you wrote is sold...not a
COPY of the program, but the full packaging itself...so that the person that
you origionally sold it to no longer has the fancy packaging that you put
the program in.
What has just happened??? HE (the origional buyer) has taken a commodity
that YOU sold him and has sold it again for a higher price. That higher
price was possible because the origional program and packaging was not
available (the Ten Club does not sell many of the old singles). The higher
price was also possible because YOU, the computer programmer, are a
celebrity, and people are willing to pay extra in order to see the artistic
talents that you place into your computer programming.
See....this whole example sucks, because computer programmers can't be
compared to rock stars. A friggin' computer disk isn't nearly the same as a
fully packaged vinyl record which is a COLLECTOR'S ITEM. One of my friends'
grandfather used to collect Cracker Jack toys, right? Now, Cracker Jack
toys are essentially a FREE GIFT from the makers of Cracker Jack....you're
buying a snack, and you're getting a little toy as a gift. Well, a few
years ago, my buddy's grandfather sold his collection, and fetched one hell
of a price for it, because he had complete sets of toys from like 1947-1959
or something obscene like that. He made a LOT of money off of those FREE
GIFTS. Is it wrong of him to have sold off a collection?? Does that mean
that he should no longer be allowed to buy Cracker Jacks, because he's
obviously no longer a fan of Cracker Jack's???
Comparing a computer program to REAL collector's items is a farce, because
no one worships computer programmers like they do rock stars, or Cracker
Jack toys, or Faberge Eggs, or baseball cards, or old coins, or.....you get
the friggin' picture. From a legal standpoint, it would only be illegal to
sell a CD that contained burned copies of the christmas singles. But
selling the vinyl itself is like selling any other collector's item. It's
not JUST the music, it's the artwork as well....I can get ALL of the
Christmas singles in mp3 formate whenever I'd like, but, as a collector, I'd
rather have the vinyls themselves. If the Ten Club isn't going to sell
them, than someone else will. LEGALLY.
--
Rai
"I never end my messages with a damn quote."
clubved
sorry. i didn't want to bring that up.
a baby is one thing... but COME ON! This is the pearl jam single
we're talking about!
the band is fine with the right to choose. i am, too.
weird. when it all comes down to it... the pearl jam singles
are just "things". it is stuff. when you start to value your
stuff more than life... well.. then... you've got American
Beauty on your hands.
why can't people stop judging others?
sorry that i keep adding stuff to this thread. i'm having an
absent-minded day and keep forgetting to throw things in.
also...i keep reading what is being added while i'm writing and
you guys do realize that i'm just debating. right? i'm not
trying to fight here. and i do hope i don't sound hostile.
opinions vary. each one counts. each point is valid (except for
comparing an original to a copy... that didn't make sense but
don't get me wrong... i'm not claiming to be the brightest bulb
on the tree...)
and just to make myself clear...i CHOOSE not to sell my records
on eBay at this time. but i do know that i collect them right
now because i LOVE pearl jam and i do RESPECT them... not
supposedly... i do. i just happen to have an open mind and
realize that there are some people who find themselves needing
money to pay their heating bills or to go out and buy food and i
understand that when you are looking at your children and
looking at your pearl jam collection... i know which one is more
valuable to me.
read the gift of the magi. they didn't sell their possessions
for the sole purpose of making money.
not everyone is like you. and sure they can sell their
computers... but maybe they're using eBay while they're at work.
maybe they're not at the point where they have to sell their
computers just yet... but are trying to do what they can to
avoid doing that.
maybe the people on eBay are fans of the music... just not as
serious a fan as we are. maybe they only look at the singles as
if they are just records that they don't really listen to or
don't really want or need. maybe they don't want to get into
trading and find it easier to just hop over to ebay and unload
it to someone on there who is willing to buy it... who knows? i
don't pretend to know anyone personally over there. if i don't
want to buy stuff from eBay... i don't venture over there. if i
happen to be looking for a rare Ramones song called Chop Suey
that i can't find anywhere... i sometimes think to browse over
there. i've been looking for that song for over two decades
now.. if i ever find it over there... woo hoo! i'll be psyched.
i don't know what i'd do if i found myself having to put my
pearl jam collection up for auction to pay a bill and have
someone send me a letter saying... that's it... you're not a fan
of the music anymore. if i ever had to sell my pearl jam
records, i think it would be hard enough without the added
aggrivation from someone who doesn't know me.
Rai
> Yes, you *can* do anything you like with it, but my problem is (speaking for myself
> only here) that I think selling it is morally incorrect. My opinion, nothing more.
Than this argument is over. Period. If that's YOUR opinion, than don't sell. But don't
attack someone that does sell, because morality doesn't dictate legality. Legally, I can
lie to my neighbors. Morally, I'd rather not. But I can't berate anyone for doing
something that goes against MY morals, because everyone's got their own set of morals.
You can't govern the morality of others, and trying to do so is a bit totalitarian.
PJamHed
bhu...@accesscomSPAMSUCKS.com (Brian F. Huber) writes:
>and postage for the newsletters and
> Christmas singles.
POSTAGE for the Christmas singles. whatever.
and: >Personally, I would have a hard time paying the ten dollars if there
>was no single included.
So, aren't you going to any shows this summer? No fan club tickets this time
out?
If you try to tell me that you wouldn't pay 10 bucks for the privelege of fan
club tix, I'd be mightily surprised. Check out the scalpers prices for seats
behind the fan club...
dana
PJamHed
<mlo...@execpc.com> writes:
>Grn Eyes wrote:
>> The $10.00 is to cover postage fees and printing the newsletters and all
>> that jazz, the singles are basically free gifts that PJ gives to their fans
>> as a thank you for sticking with them throughout the years.
>"Free Gift" maybe, but you can not deny that you get this "gift" for
>Paying $10 to be in the club. In my eyes, I am buying a single w/ my
>fan club money and I know that a lot of other ppl. feel the same way.
>
>Here's a question for you: Say I'm in the REM fan club as well and I
>get their fan club single? Is it OK for me to sell this? I would be
>willing to bet that most ppl. in this newsgroup would say yes, including
>those who are so against selling the Pearl Jam single because I wouldn't
>be profiting off of Pearl Jam.
first off: If I was in the REM club, it would be because I'm a fan - it
wouldn't be so I could get rare merchandise to sell to others... so of course
it would be wrong.
Now as for PJ fan club singles, I don't know. To me it's just like the whole
beanie baby mentality that I just don't get. It's rare, so I must have it.
Eh. Especially if I AM a fan... is the person that is willing to spend $50
bucks on E-bay to get the 91 single interested in having it because they're
such a huge fan, or because 25 years from now they want to sell it to Hard Rock
Cafe or EMP, or start their own museum. I don't have the first few singles, so
I got a friend to record them on tape for me. Worked for me :)
Matt, since you don't want any of the other benefits from the ten club - can I
have your fan club tickets? :P
I dunno, I would never sell my singles - I know that's not what the band
intended when they sent them out... but I really don't give a fuck what you do
with yours :).
dana
M. Lowerr
> I was puzzled by your and Brian's hostility here, but I guess my tone
> was a bit abrupt too. I apologize. The paragraph you both quoted does
Most of my "hostility" comes from my inability to fathom, in any way,
how there can even be a question about if it's ok to sell the singles.
Of course it is, it's a commodity.
> The point of all this, is that the band, through the fan club, has
> stated that people have been kicked out for auctioning the singles on
> ebay, so I'm guessing they aren't happy with it. If people respect the
> band, and appreciate all they do for us, I say you should respect their
> wishes on this.
I have a problem w/ the fan club in this respect. Surely, they should
know that they are releasing something that has a market value. I don't
think that they should be kicking people out for selling the fan club
singles.
> As for other bands, who really cares? I don't.
See, you just don't seem to get it. You aren't acknowledging how
fucking hypocritical this is on your behalf. Why is it wrong to profit
off of Pearl Jam but for any other band "yeah... well... i don't care."
I am almost at a complete loss for words on the stupidity of this.
M. Lowerr
<SNIP>
> Say you write a program that is useful and performs an important
> function. Say you then make a copy of that program and give it to
> someone to use, for a small fee, say $10. Say then, that other person
> sells the program you just gave them to Tom, Dick or Harry on the street
> for $100. They just made a nice little wad of cash from something you
> put a lot of time and effort into. Needless to say, you wouldn't be
> happy. It's exactly with a christmas single or an album, except that
> program is actually music.
<SNIP>
Ok, now this is interesting to me because I am a programmer and have
found myself in a similar situation.
I should preface this though by admitting that I do pirate software and
I do download full album mp3's from time to t ime so I see both sides of
this (both the creator and the "warez d00d" side).
I have sold some of my software for small amounts of money and have
later found out that it was resold for more. Was I mad? In a way yes.
I was also flattered that my software had that kind of value. However,
as far as I'm concerned I do not have the right to go to the person who
sold my software and demand restitution. I sold that software for a
value I thought was fair. Someone came along and wanted the software
bad enough or thought it was good enough to warrant amount x. Fine. I
got what I thought was fair payment at the time. If that software
turned out to be better than I expected or to be worth more, well then
shame on me for underselling myself.
M. Lowerr
Matt Lobegeiger wrote:
<SNIP>
> They are clearly the same thing. Whether it's on and official vinyl, a
> cassette someone recorded or an mp3 someone ripped, it's still a COPY of
> an original perfomance in a studio. It doesn't matter if you're selling
> the original vinyl itself or a copy of that vinyl, it's still making
> money from someone else's work and it's still morally incorrect (IMO).
<SNIP>
But then shouldn't we be boycotting every single CD store in the world?
They mark up the price of CDs so that they can make a profit. How is it
that this isn't morally wrong yet selling my x-mas single is?
clubved
thank you. that was awesome.
selling copies of the christmas single is bootlegging and
therefore, illegal. but selling the original is not.
lizzie...
M. Lowerr
> Yes, you *can* do anything you like with it, but my problem is (speaking
> for myself only here) that I think selling it is morally incorrect. My
> opinion, nothing more.
not laws. You can not enforce your morals on me, nor can I enforce my
morals on you. If your morals say that it's not right to sell the
single, fine, then don't sell yours, BUT, don't tell me that I can't
sell mine.
What it all boils down to is that as long as both the seller and buyer
are happy at the end of the day that's all that matters.
"I may not agree w/ what you say, but I will fight for your right to say
it" - Ben Franklin.
M. Lowerr
> They've made it clear that they don't like people selling bootleg stuff,
> including t-shirts, CDs, singles. If you're not making a profit,
> there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. And to FEEK, who's just
> dying to start something, of course, I'm not talking about licensed
> sales.
member of the "pearl jam police." it's fine for me to sell bootlegs
from anyone BUT pearl jam because we can't have anyone making money off
of "our band" now can we?
clubved
version and tape version. (it's cut out on the cd).
lizzie
thanks. it's the coolest pearl jam related incident that's ever
happened to me.
M. Lowerr
> Where is your tshirt on nocode? Is that what you meant?? That is so cool!
The TicketMonster shirt is on the dummy above Jack. You can see the
legs of the dummy on the CD version. Get yourself a copy of the NC
vinyl to see a MUCH better shot... :)
M. Lowerr
> first off: If I was in the REM club, it would be because I'm a fan - it
> wouldn't be so I could get rare merchandise to sell to others... so of course
> it would be wrong.
a rats ass what you sell, as long as it's not a pearl jam item. In m
opinion this is complete hypocrisy. If it's so wrong to sell a "gift"
it shouldn't matter who that gift is from, yet the response I get is,
"any other band ... I don't care."
> Matt, since you don't want any of the other benefits from the ten club - can I
> have your fan club tickets? :P
plus of being in the club but that isn't something you can count on
getting every year, or every two years. PJ doesn't tour on a regular
basis... there isn't an annual spring tour or anything like that so IMO
that is an occasional perk.
> I dunno, I would never sell my singles - I know that's not what the band
> intended when they sent them out... but I really don't give a fuck what you do
> with yours :).
because as I said before, there may come a time when I have no desire in
keeping them or a time when I need money and have to sell them. When
that time comes as far as I'm concerned they are a commodity that can be
sold.
clubved
down. this is actually one of the best debates i've ever been
involved in. <knocking in wood>
no one has taken it to a personal level or got flustered and
simply wrote... ahhh your mother sucks eggs in closests blind
folded!!
hahaha.
anyway... i consider anything with my name on it mine. if we all
had the mentality of the other matt (not lowerr) than i wouldn't
be able to call anything my own. after all... everything i own
was designed and created by someone else. we definitely have
different opinions. my records (pearl jam, ramones, clash,
whatever...) are mine. i worked to obtain them so they're MINE.
Mine to do with as I please.
if you consider your record collection not to be entirely yours
even though you work 40 hours a week to get it.. then you're a
really weird person. i grew up with 6 brothers and 2 sisters...
i know what's mine.
does that mean that the house i am living in is not my house
because i didn't build it? eesh...
anyway... matt (again.. not Lowerr)... your points are the only
points that make me raise my eyebrows and think "not a good
point." sorry. but like i said before.. i don't consider myself
to be very smart. i could be missing your point. but at least
i'm trying to understand them. ya gotta give me credit for that.
Brian F. Huber
Francisco show. Without the fan club, I got excellent seats to the
Phoenix and San Bernardino shows. Personally, I don't care where I
sit, as long as it's not lawn. It's about the experience, not where I
sit, because you should be able to FEEL the music anywhere. So, no,
ten bucks would not be enough for me to have the privilege of buying
the tickets from the fan club. Surprised? And don't get me wrong, I
appreciate what the fan club does for us. But, I didn't join the fan
club until 98, and only then because I knew they gave out the singles.
I did not even know they sold tickets. So, I sent in my ten bucks for
the single, and nothing else. I'm sure you will find a lot of people
who have joined the fan club for similar reasons.
And I don't need to check the scalpers.....I've already got my
tickets....for face value.
Brian F. Huber
ebay!
;)
On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 12:39:45 -0700, clubved
<lizzieN...@clubved.com.invalid> wrote:
>you can see the shirt on the dummy behind jack in the vinyl
>version and tape version. (it's cut out on the cd).
>
>lizzie
>thanks. it's the coolest pearl jam related incident that's ever
>happened to me.
>
brian j
every year, thats 150 page books, on glossy paper with hard covers,
embossed titles, multiple color printing, and they cost 6$ CDN each
which is about 4$ US finished, the newsletter, if printed en masse, would
probably cost no more than 1.00-1.50$ US to print. Postage is
about 2.50$ for the newsletters and single, so you're left with
6.50$. I don't know how much a 7" costs to produce, but I would
say about 3.00$ each with packaging. Thats 3.50$ left, or lets be generous,
2.50$. I have no clue how much tim and shirley get paid, but
I'd assume they do, my point being, you're paying for everything you
get, it's a good price, but it's not free, if it were free,
then the band or label would be fronting the costs, not you./
>Sorry, but the $10 barely covers the cost of the newsletter and
>postage. The single truly is a free gift, paid for by the band, not
>your $10 membership fee.
>
>As far as why PJ and not other bands, Angie's answer says it best.
>
>Laurie
>
>"M. Lowerr" wrote:
>>
>> Grn Eyes wrote:
>> > The $10.00 is to cover postage fees and printing the newsletters and all
>> > that jazz, the singles are basically free gifts that PJ gives to their
fans
>> > as a thank you for sticking with them throughout the years.
>> "Free Gift" maybe, but you can not deny that you get this "gift" for
>> Paying $10 to be in the club. In my eyes, I am buying a single w/ my
>> fan club money and I know that a lot of other ppl. feel the same way.
>>
>> Here's a question for you: Say I'm in the REM fan club as well and I
>> get their fan club single? Is it OK for me to sell this? I would be
>> willing to bet that most ppl. in this newsgroup would say yes, including
>> those who are so against selling the Pearl Jam single because I wouldn't
>> be profiting off of Pearl Jam. What if it was a Kid Rock fan club
>> single (i don't even know if there is such a thing)? Again, I bet the
>> answer would be yes, followed by a remark like because Kid Rock sucks.
>>
>> Now, my question is why is it all right for me to profit off of these
>> artists? Because they aren't Pearl Jam? This is where the argument
>> seems to die w/ most ppl who are so against "profiting off of PJ." It's
>> ok to do it w/ anyone BUT PJ... If you are going to have this opinion
>> about it being wrong to sell these singles I think that it should be a
>> hard line "do not sell any artists fanclub merchandise" viewpoint or
>> else it's a bit hypocritical.
>>
>> Angie: This isn't intended as a flame twords you -- it's just the end
>> of the current thread.
>>
>> > > they arent getting free singles, they're paying 12$ for em
>>
Grn Eyes
> As I said:
I comment before reading the entire post....
Grn Eyes
> i didn't see any hostility until someone wrote the actual word
> down. this is actually one of the best debates i've ever been
> involved in. <knocking in wood>
> no one has taken it to a personal level or got flustered and
> simply wrote... ahhh your mother sucks eggs in closests blind
> folded!!
> hahaha.
This has been one of the best debates here. I didn't stop and think about
it until I saw your post.
Grn Eyes
>It doesnt say PAY THIS CASH AND GET A PJ
> SINGLE. That is just part of the package. $10 a year for a fan club is a
good
> deal. Shit i remember when the pj fan club was $5.
Most fanclubs these days are at least $20/30 dollars. PJ again cares for
their fans and keeps the cost to us down.
FEEKlIIIIl
fan mail, dealing with sorting out all the requests for 10 club seating at
the shows, sending out confirmations, etc.?>>
Those people do it because they LOVE pearl jam. :)
Matt Lobegeiger
don't know if you guys know anything about programming, but I do so I'll
use it as an example, it's not important anyway.
Say you write a program that is useful and performs an important
function. Say you then make a copy of that program and give it to
someone to use, for a small fee, say $10. Say then, that other person
sells the program you just gave them to Tom, Dick or Harry on the street
for $100. They just made a nice little wad of cash from something you
put a lot of time and effort into. Needless to say, you wouldn't be
happy. It's exactly with a christmas single or an album, except that
program is actually music.
I agree that if someone is prepared to pay a certain amount for a
single, then that's their own problem. But I'm not talking about buyers,
it's the sellers who are morally incorrect.
You say that people profit from other people's work all the time, you
gave the art gallery/art work example. I agree, yes, people do profit
from other people's work all the time. Guess what, people get murdered
all the time, women get raped all the time. Just because it happens all
the time, it doesn't mean it should happen, it doesn't mean it's a good
thing, it doesn't mean it's right...
OK, I'm calm now...
The single itself may be a commodity, but the music on it is definitely
*not*.
matt
clubved wrote:
>
> "It's different because the fan club single was a free gift from
> the band and they strongly support trading, but do not like
> people profiting off of them, and I think we should respect
> that."
>
> I think I've mentioned this before... Ed is always seen shopping
> in used record stores. Suppose he found a rare Pete Townshend
> Christmas single that was given out only to members of the Pete
> Townshend fan club... should he or should he not buy it?
>
> The bottom line is: The Ten Club sends out the Christmas
> singles... that single becomes mine. It is mine to do with as I
> please. It's a freedom of choice kind of thing. My record's
> nobody's record but mine. You run your own record... let me run
> mine.
>
> Another bad analogy. I know. But it is kind of weird what people
> fight for, isn't it?
>
> You mention that the Fan Club should toss anyone caught selling
> the singles on eBay or they should consider themselves not fans
> anymore... but what about the people who BUY the records from
> eBay? what do you suppose their punishment should be?
>
> lizzie...
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
--
~Makes much more sense to live in the present tense~
e-mail: s35...@student.uq.edu.au
http://student.uq.edu.au/~s355795/
ICQ: 32620143
LaminA
> So it really becomes this moral issue
> of selling the single. It IS a legal item from pj for someone to sell, and
pj
> LOVEs when companies sell their shit, they just dont want people selling
the
> bootlegs. Now, they dont want you selling the fan club singles either, but
that
> is a tightrope walk. Its not illegal, but maybe immoral.
This is an honest question, is it legal to sell these singles despite the
fact that they have 'Demonstration: Not for sale' printed on them?
Joe
--
"LaminA na htiw eb rehtar d'I"
reddeV eiddE-
Matt Lobegeiger
>
> ilnicki wrote:
> > It's different because the fan club single was a free gift from the band
> > and they strongly support trading, but do not like people profiting off
> > of them, and I think we should respect that.
> >
> It's not free -- I paid $10 for membership into the club. That's a
> fee. The main reason I pay that fee is so that I can get the single.
> If I decide that I want to sell it I can, it's my property.
>
> Again, I remind you that when I join the ten club I do not sign any kind
> of agreement that says I will never sell the newsletters, singles, etc.
> Nor, does the single come w/ any big long legal contract that says this
> is a gift to me and that selling the single breaches certain portions of
> any agreement I signed when joining the club.
>
> Also, you say that "they do not like ppl profiting off of them." Does
> this mean that if a band has never made an official statement about
> bootlegs I have your blessing to sell bootlegs of their performances?
> Or what about this: Say I have a copy of Vs. that was released WITHOUT
> A TITLE on it. As we all know these are rare. Is it OK for me to sell
> that for significantly more than I paid for it? That sure has hell is a
> profit off of something I did not create, yet I purchased it at a store,
> it wasn't given to me, so it's all right to sell that, correct?
>
> This whole argument that I was given a gift and therefor can not sell it
> is quite frankly bullshit. I look at my singles as an investment and
> there is a reason that I purchase an extra copy of each one from the Ten
> Club when they are made available. Right now that reason is to have
> mint condition, never played copies in my collection but at the same
> time I am reasonable enough to know that they, especially the older
> ones, have a collectors value and that at some point down the road I may
> want or need to sell them. When and if that time comes I will have no
> hesitation in selling them and I will still sleep well at night.
>
> If that makes me any less of a fan in your eyes, well... so be it. The
> fact is this is a Capitalistic society and my property is mine to do
> what I please with it. If I want to use it as a frisbee w/ my dog I
> can. If I want to spray paint it blue and orange I can. If I want to
> sell it I can.
Yes, you *can* do anything you like with it, but my problem is (speaking
for myself only here) that I think selling it is morally incorrect. My
opinion, nothing more.
matt
>
>
> > AuroraMor wrote:
> > >
> > > I've never been an enthusiast for the fan club singles. I don't have a record
> > > player, nor will I be getting one any time soon, if ever. Personally, I'm one
> > > of those people who prefer the newsletters over the singles.
> > > Would I sell them though? Nope. Actually I've given away the two that I've
> > > received. But if I did decide I wanted to do so, I don't see why there should
> > > be a problem with it because as someone pointed out -- I paid for my membership
> > > and how is this really any different than selling my copies of PJ studio
> > > releases?
> > >
> > > dawn
>
> --
> & Matthew Lowerr .. E.mail <mlo...@execpc.com> .. InstMsg: mlowerr .
> & Public PGP @ .......... <http://www.execpc.com/~mlowerr/pgp.html> .
> & Always looking for Pearl Jam CD-R Traders / B&P? Just Ask! .
> &^....................................................................
> & "So gather around/And see what the day brings/And see what makes .
> & you laugh/And see what makes you sing/And never, nevermind/The .
> & thing that people say/You'll never go away/You'll never go away/So .
> & gather around/And see what the day brings/See what makes you laugh/.
> & And what makes you sing" - Brad, _The Day Brings_ .
> &^....................................................................
--
Matt Lobegeiger
>
> weird conclusion considering some people don't have record
> players and have no use for records.
>
> also... i joined the fan club for good seats at shows. yes, i
> enjoy the forty-fives... but their MINE.
>
> lizzie...
> PS Matt... i'm glad to know that there is someone else here who
> allows others to have a freedom of choice when it comes to what
> is theirs. (i'm so borderline asking about what these people
> think of the right to choose but... that's a different debate
> that i really hate to be the one who brings it up.)
If I wrote a song myself and recorded myself performing it, only then
would I consider a copy of it totally mine.
As for freedom of choice, you can choose what you want, there's no one
stopping you, but don't always expect that choice you make to be the
correct one.
matt
>
> lizzie...
> www.clubved.com/ticketmonster.htm
> www.clubved.com/gallery.html
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
--
Matt Lobegeiger
>
> Matt...
> are they selling COPIES of the program or just one original
> program?
Copies, but that's the thing. No matter how many copies there are, it's
still all just one original program. Making copies of it doesn't change
that.
matt
>
> lizzie...
Sunsoar
"clubved" <lizzieN...@clubved.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:087254ec...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com...
> When I first started making my Ticketmonster shirts, there was a
> big debate about whether or not I was ripping off the band. The
> shirts show the stickman flipping the bird at a sign that says
> Ticketmonster. Anywho... some people were all disgusted that I
> was charging for the shirts. I son't make a profit on them.
> They're each hand painted one at a time. Anyway... most people
> were all loving the shirts, but there were a few people who had
> the... "you're making money off of the band..." attitude.
> Well... I sent shirts to the band and took it as their blessing
> for me to continue making them when I opened up my No Code vinyl
> for the first time and saw my shirt in there.
> If Pearl Jam cared about people making a buck off of their work,
> I would have gotten papers from their lawyers... not the huge
> surprise I got.
> lizzie...
> www.clubved.com/ticketmonster.htm
>
> lizzie...
> www.clubved.com/ticketmonster.htm
> www.clubved.com/gallery.html
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
>
Where is your tshirt on nocode? Is that what you meant?? That is so cool!
- Sunsoar
Matt Lobegeiger
>
> it's not the same thing. i reread your comparison to selling a
> collectable record... not a copy of a collectable record and
> selling a copy of a computer (?) program that i designed. you
> have an apple and an orange there.
They are clearly the same thing. Whether it's on and official vinyl, a
cassette someone recorded or an mp3 someone ripped, it's still a COPY of
an original perfomance in a studio. It doesn't matter if you're selling
the original vinyl itself or a copy of that vinyl, it's still making
money from someone else's work and it's still morally incorrect (IMO).
matt
>
> and lamina (hi, there!).. as for the "for demo use only... not
> for sale" i ALWAYS see people online bragging about how they
> went to a record store and scored a demo copy of a single.
> everyone always gives them the cyber high five. it's like
> striking gold. it isn't illegal to sell an original collector's
> item that you have in your posession. even if it says "not for
> sale" on it. it's a collector's item. it's not a copy of one.
> it's the actual one. (also... the fan club sells them for the
> average price a single costs... like what? 2.00? 3.00? i don't
> remember.) but if you found a christmas single at someone's
> garage sale... would you call the cops or consider buying it?
>
> i realize opinions vary. personally... i love my records (except
> for that one with REM on the flipside. that is not a favorite
> and never will be)... i would never sell my records. but i am
> also not in a position where i can tell anyone else that they
> shouldn't be selling their records.
>
> i just want to also make it clear that my views are about the
> average person who might have one extra record to sell... not
> someone who went to newbury comics and bought each and every
> copy of Last Kiss that they had for sale at 2.50 each and then
> shows up on eBay and starts his bidding at 20.00 each.
>
> lizzie...
>
> lizzie...
> www.clubved.com/ticketmonster.htm
> www.clubved.com/gallery.html
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
--
Sunsoar
"M. Lowerr" <mlo...@execpc.com> wrote in message
news:3976042a$0$66398$3929...@news.execpc.com...
> Sunsoar wrote:
> > Where is your tshirt on nocode? Is that what you meant?? That is so
cool!
> legs of the dummy on the CD version. Get yourself a copy of the NC
> vinyl to see a MUCH better shot... :)
>
Looks like I'm gonna have to....
viynls, and official boots... this obsession is going to send me bankrupt...
but leave me my cds, vinyls and something to play them on and it will be
bliss :-)
- Sunsoar
Matt Lobegeiger
>
> Matt Lobegeiger wrote:
> > Yes, you *can* do anything you like with it, but my problem is (speaking
> > for myself only here) that I think selling it is morally incorrect. My
> > opinion, nothing more.
Why? It's been about my opinion all along. I've just tried to get my
point across to you guys and hopefully you gave it some consideration.
That was my aim, I'm not trying to tell you what to do.
> Morals are
> not laws. You can not enforce your morals on me, nor can I enforce my
> morals on you. If your morals say that it's not right to sell the
> single, fine, then don't sell yours, BUT, don't tell me that I can't
> sell mine.
Fine! Where did I tell you that you can't do it? All I ever said was
that I disagree with your opinion. I gave my reasons why, and I told you
what I thought. I'm just trying to get my point across exactly the same
way you are, so don't make me out as the bad guy. Geez, you don't have
to take everything as a personal attack. A point of view is exactly
that, and it's not me trying to enforce something upon you.
matt
>
> What it all boils down to is that as long as both the seller and buyer
> are happy at the end of the day that's all that matters.
>
> "I may not agree w/ what you say, but I will fight for your right to say
> it" - Ben Franklin.
>
> --
> & Matthew Lowerr .. E.mail <mlo...@execpc.com> .. InstMsg: mlowerr .
> & Public PGP @ .......... <http://www.execpc.com/~mlowerr/pgp.html> .
> & Always looking for Pearl Jam CD-R Traders / B&P? Just Ask! .
> &^....................................................................
> & "So gather around/And see what the day brings/And see what makes .
> & you laugh/And see what makes you sing/And never, nevermind/The .
> & thing that people say/You'll never go away/You'll never go away/So .
> & gather around/And see what the day brings/See what makes you laugh/.
> & And what makes you sing" - Brad, _The Day Brings_ .
> &^....................................................................
--
Matt Lobegeiger
>
> Matt Lobegeiger wrote:
>
> > Yes, you *can* do anything you like with it, but my problem is (speaking for myself
> > only here) that I think selling it is morally incorrect. My opinion, nothing more.
>
> attack someone that does sell, because morality doesn't dictate legality.
I apoligise if I've attacked anyone, but I don't think I have. I'v just
tried to get my point across to you guys. I never said morality dictates
legality, and I don't think it does. If laws were based on morals, this
world would be a very different place.
> Legally, I can
> lie to my neighbors. Morally, I'd rather not. But I can't berate anyone for doing
> something that goes against MY morals, because everyone's got their own set of morals.
> You can't govern the morality of others, and trying to do so is a bit totalitarian.
Again, I never tried to govern anyone elses morals. Am I not allowed my
own opinion and point of view? I think you may be the one who is a
little totalitarian, if that's what you think.
matt
>
> --
> Rai
>
> "I never end my messages with a damn quote."
FEEKlIIIIl
See, you just don't seem to get it. You aren't acknowledging how
fucking hypocritical this is on your behalf. Why is it wrong to profit
off of Pearl Jam but for any other band "yeah... well... i don't care."
I am almost at a complete loss for words on the stupidity of this.>>
yup, i agree with that. Why is it not ok for pj but other bands, ah fuck it who
cares.
FEEKlIIIIl
function. Say you then make a copy of that program and give it to
someone to use, for a small fee, say $10. Say then, that other person
sells the program you just gave them to Tom, Dick or Harry on the street
for $100. They just made a nice little wad of cash from something you
put a lot of time and effort into. Needless to say, you wouldn't be
happy. It's exactly with a christmas single or an album, except that
program is actually music. >>
First, the guy shouldnt have let the other guy use it for only $10. He should
have protected his investment better IMO.
<I agree that if someone is prepared to pay a certain amount for a
single, then that's their own problem. But I'm not talking about buyers,
it's the sellers who are morally incorrect.>
There it is. MORALLY. Well, considering we all dont live by one set of morals,
who cares then. It is against YOUR morals not to sell the single, but to
others, they dont think its MORALLY INCORRECT. So if its a moral issue, i think
people should back off a little. I can understand people complaining about the
sale of illegal boots, at least then they have something to argue about. But a
LEGAL single is yours and you can sell it if you want. Morally, some people
would say its not cool, but others might say it is. So stale mate.
FEEKlIIIIl
They mark up the price of CDs so that they can make a profit. How is it
that this isn't morally wrong yet selling my x-mas single is?>>
I think i can answer that matt. Now, i agree with you 100% but when they dont
get mad at stores its because they feel that PJ has already made their cash on
that cd. What i cant understand are the people here who cry about the sale of
bootlegs but then still shop at stores that sell them. LIke i said before, pj
LOVES when stores profit off of them becuase of course the PJ INC biz makes
lots of cash from that also. No matter what PJ is STILL a business and out to
make money. But that is why they dont get mad at stores, I think?
FEEKlIIIIl
thank you. that was awesome.
selling copies of the christmas single is bootlegging and
therefore, illegal. but selling the original is not>>
Whoa, i agree with RAI again?
FEEKlIIIIl
fact that they have 'Demonstration: Not for sale' printed on them?>>
Well, that is a fine line issue. LEGALLY if its says that on it, the band can
at any time take one that they see for sale somewhere. But LEGALLY you can also
sell it privatly. Not to mention a USED cd store can LEGALLY sell a cd that
says that on it also. SO its really a strange issue.
FEEKlIIIIl
them a gift?>
So you are saying they are sending cease and desist letters to people selling
the singles? I dont know if i believe that. Not to mention even if they saw
illegal bootlegs for sale, the letter comes from the RIAA and not pjs people.
<They've made it clear that they don't like people selling bootleg stuff,
including t-shirts, CDs, singles.>
Whoa whoa whoa, you just made a mistake, you said they dont like people selling
bootleg stuff, but then mentioned the singles. Those are not bootlegs and
therefore not illegal in any way.
< If you're not making a profit,
there's nothing wrong with what you're doing. And to FEEK, who's just
dying to start something, of course, I'm not talking about licensed
sales.>>
Look baby, i didnt try to start anything, in fact ive been very respectful to
everyones opinions, so who is trying to start what? And when i talk about
licensed sales its because alot of the high and mighty people here say NO
PROFIT like they are talking about legal sales also, so i was just clearing it
up. Stop thinking everything i say is to start something. I have valid opinions
also even though they dont meet your moral standards.
FEEKlIIIIl
their fans and keeps the cost to us down.>>
Whoa, what fan clubs are that much?
ilnicki
"M. Lowerr" wrote:
> I have a problem w/ the fan club in this respect. Surely, they should
> know that they are releasing something that has a market value. I don't
> think that they should be kicking people out for selling the fan club
> singles.
>
They are employees of Kelly Curtis, and any policy they have comes from
the band's wishes.
>
> > As for other bands, who really cares? I don't.
> See, you just don't seem to get it. You aren't acknowledging how
> fucking hypocritical this is on your behalf. Why is it wrong to profit
> off of Pearl Jam but for any other band "yeah... well... i don't care."
> I am almost at a complete loss for words on the stupidity of this.
I'm not saying it's okay. I'm just saying I don't care. If I did, I'd
find out how the band feels about it and respect their wishes, if I were
a fan of that band. I'm sure Metallica would be all for ripping off
fellow fans for whatever you can get.
Laurie
ilnicki
it depends on how the band feels about it.
Laurie
FEEKlIIIIl wrote:
>
> <<> As for other bands, who really cares? I don't.
> See, you just don't seem to get it. You aren't acknowledging how
> fucking hypocritical this is on your behalf. Why is it wrong to profit
> off of Pearl Jam but for any other band "yeah... well... i don't care."
> I am almost at a complete loss for words on the stupidity of this.>>
>
ilnicki
etc. Let's say there are 25,000 members, and each of the employees
makes $25,000/year (just guessing). That means $2 per membership going
for salaries alone, not to mention benefits, payroll taxes, office rent,
equipment, etc, web space, web page design and maintenance...
Laurie