Coffee Talk--The Garden
TBaslier
<73223...@CompuServe.COM> writes:
> Every place (mental, physical, emotional, whatever) has both an
>entrance (an "in") and an exit (an "out"). So to get to a different
>place ("here"), you just take the exit from wherever you happen to be
>("the place you're 'in'")....
Oh, Eva, Eva (Tami whines), thank you for trying, but my poor brain is
tied in knots (ouch). It's words like "in" and "out", "entrance" and
"exit", that get me confused, because my take on this has always been that
you are already THERE, and there is no in or out, just changing
perception. Or--here's a new thought--should I just assume "in" and "out"
MEAN a change in perception?
(Did I just have another "Jason" experience?)
Things are pretty different over here than they are on Tork Talk, aren't
they? Compared to you guys we are ever so serious. I keep planning to
pop in you on Torkies when I get a chance . . . . . . . . . . . tami
Tami Bassler
> The Garden is much more accessible than The Prison.
> Love the music, but in comparison with its
>predicessor, when you listen to the Prison on its own, it
offers more.
When I listen to The Prison by itself, I hear songs. When I
listen to The Garden, I see the "movie".
For me, The Garden had a flow which I found missing in The
Prison. The Prison took a little more effort--I had to
concentrate on keeping the test and music together.
> > The music sounds different when you read the story with it.
> The difference here is that these are
>two mediums that were crafted to complement one another, and
as a result,
>the mind is stimulated in ways beyond what either could do
alone.
Well said. I'm just still amazed by the effect. (Which wasn't
as strong for me in The Prison.) There's a technique painters
use to see more clearly. The trick is to not look directly at
an object, but blur your eyes and look slightly to one side.
That's what I feel listening to this music--by listening
indirectly (while reading) I hear it more clearly.
>> Getting "lost" when reading the text makes me feel like
Jason.
>Your observation makes me wonder if Nez's intent is to make
the
>reader/listener truly FEEL emotions, deep down, beyond the
surface
>emotions we feel day to day.
Hey, you really picked up on what I was saying! I didn't think
anyone would from that vague little sentence. I don't remember
specifically where I got lost, but it was somewhere in chapter
2 or 3. I was cruising right along, feeling very proud of
myself because it was so EASY, then suddenly nothing matched up
anymore. I wondered if I should speed up? Slow down? I kept
glancing at the counter on the CD player, flipping to the end
of the chapter . . . but I kept plodding through it and
suddenly everything came together again. I felt a real sense
of relief, discovering I had been in the right place all along
. . kind of like Jason.
>> I want a bigger book! This little one doesn't work . . .
>That would be nice, but I was just happy to see that both the
type and
>the artwork was "bigger and better" than with The Prison CD.
Did you ever see the book that came with the album, The Prison
boxed set? It's much easier to get the full effect from this
reading/listening experience if you don't have to struggle with
a tiny book. What I'd really love to see is a bookstore version
of this project . . . imagine what a beautiful book this could
be in hard-cover!
>> Didn't we meet Muriel in " . . . tropical campfire's . . .
"?
>Uh....I don't know. What exactly do you mean by that?
You say you're on chapter 3? Tell me what you think after you
read chapter 4. By the way, I like Murial--she's very visual.
And Jason is aural . . . no wonder they have trouble
communicating. Good thing they have telepathy or they wouldn't
have a chance . . .
>> Hardest line to understand: "And you get 'here' by using the
'out'
>> of the place you're 'in.'" Arrrrggghhh! Help!
> I believe that it's not meant to have only ONE
definition....it will
>have many, depending on the individual.
Yes, I agree that everyone has to find their own
meaning--that's what art is for. And I can substitute one "p"
word for another and come up with one meaning, but I'm not
satisfied with that. The word "out" doesn't fit in with my own
perceptions. I'm working on it . . .
Thanks Karen! As always you make me think in new directions!
Anybody else have anything to say about The Garden? On any
subject? The music? Random ramblings? Anything? Bob, did you
go driving/reading this weekend?
EvaJF
of the place you're 'in.'" Arrrrggghhh! Help!>
Tami:
I think this is what Nez is saying...if I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll
hear about it....<G>
Every place (mental, physical, emotional, whatever) has both an
entrance (an "in") and an exit (an "out"). So to get to a different
place ("here"), you just take the exit from wherever you happen to be
("the place you're 'in'")....
Very logical....
Still looking for it....
Zan:
Hi. And if he goes to Philly, he'd better come HERE....fair IS fair
after all....I want mine signed too....<G>
Eva
EvaJF
writes:
< thank you for trying, but my poor brain is
tied in knots (ouch). It's words like "in" and "out", "entrance" and
"exit", that get me confused, because my take on this has always been that
you are already THERE, and there is no in or out, just changing
perception. Or--here's a new thought--should I just assume "in" and "out"
MEAN a change in perception? >
Tami:
The problem is that I'm trying "blind"...I haven't experienced THE
GARDEN yet, so I don't have a real context for the idea....I just go by
the words, but i think I really need the whole package to "get it"....
We Torkies also have our serious moments....We've done our share of
lyric interpretations and the like....with surprising results. (Oh,
Nadine!!! <G>). I love these kinds of discussions---they are some of the
best fun there is, because they are intelligent. Though, of course there's
always a place for the completely frivolous....<G>
EJ
Tami Bassler
Karen R>The Prison by itself, I don't just hear songs.... I hear
>ideas. No, it's more than that. It's a KNOWING. You know?
No. I wish I did. I'm not as familiar with it as you are.
You've got me
wanting to "do" it again, but all I've got is the Awareness CD,
and that book is unreadable. And Karen, I think The Prison is
ideally suited for your talents, because you've got a good eye,
but you're also a good listener, so you can juggle three balls
at once (lyrics, text, music). And the concepts come very
easily to you because of your background. For me, The Garden
is a more familiar place--so many of my interests are
here--gardening, Impressionism, light in all forms, telepathy,
flying . . .
> Nice metaphor. Sort of like blurring the mind's eye, hmm?
I LIKE that! Yeah . . .
>Hopefully, our awareness in this situation will aid our
awareness overall.
Nez is good at building those bridges . . .
> Some people, I think,
>tie in to the emotions more easily for whatever reason.
I agree. Sometimes it's simply a matter of sensory perception,
sometimes it's because a life event sharpens the emotions. I
experienced this Garden in an INTENSELY emotional way, and
partly it's because of Nez's skill, but it's also because of
what's happening to ME. Strangely enough this CD arrived on the
same day I found out my father is dying, so the two events are
tied together forever. I really AM Jason, facing the monster,
confronting mortality. Fear? It's all around me. This CD
couldn't have come along at a better time. It's provided me
with a way to vent pent-up emotions, but I also find it very
soothing and comforting.
>mom had also said that she felt things she hadn't felt in
>YEARS when she read or listened to The Prison.
It's so cool that you can share this experience with your mom.
I can't wait to hear what she thinks about The Garden. Maybe
she could do a "guest appearance" here?
> I've never seen the boxed set, but I did get a 1977 vinyl
>reissue (just for the book!) It is very nice.
I wish I still had mine! My first experience with The Prison
was in 1987, and it clicked the first time. It seemed so
perfect I thought I'd never try it again, so I sold the record.
Big mistake! I want it back!!
>Thanks Karen! As always you make me think in new directions!
>VERKLEMPT! Talk amongst yourselves! I'll give you a topic....
> "Monkees fans are neither monkeys nor fans." Discuss!
(Ahh--laughter!!!!)
Still verklempt? No big whoop . . . anytime you wanna talk,
about dawgs, or cwoffee, I'm here. And Nez--that MAN--his
voice--it's like BUTTAH!! (Now I'M verklempt!)
Brad Waddell
: Karen R
: Pederson <k...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> writes:
: > Some people, I think,
: >tie in to the emotions more easily for whatever reason.
: I agree. Sometimes it's simply a matter of sensory perception,
: sometimes it's because a life event sharpens the emotions. I
: experienced this Garden in an INTENSELY emotional way, and
: partly it's because of Nez's skill, but it's also because of
: what's happening to ME.
I listened to ... um
I read .. ahh.. hmm..
I experienced The Garden tonight.
Your comments are very interesting, because I am an extremely
un-emotional person in many ways. I am very easy going, and feel that I
never worry, so I don't experience intense fear or joy.
Maybe thats why the story was wiped out by the music to me. I found
myself ripping through the text at high speed and finding my mind
wandering to experience the music over the text.
I've never been much of a reader, but have always had strong emotions
tied to music. My three favorite artists have many songs which conjure
strong emotions in me:
Nez: Tapioca Tundra, The Crippled Lion, Here I Am, Eldorado to the Moon
Bob Mould/Sugar: The Slim, Explode and make up, See a little light
Joe Jackson: Blaze of Glory, I'm the Man, We can't live together
I don't see pictures, I hear words, I have a conversation along with the
singer. I feel his emotion in the song.
I write well, I like computer programming language, I use unusual words
which I often cannot spell, I am vocal, I like to "discuss".
I just could not put pictures to the Garden as others probably can, and
in this I feel a bit cheated. Is this a defect in my head or just a lack
of visual creativity, with plenty in the areas of audio stimuli? For
example, I can remember all of the lyrics to thousands of songs in my LP
and CD catalogs, even many I have not listened to in years.
Anyway, the music was made better by the book, because it created a
"multi-task" experience, if you will fogive my computer terms.
I find that I can work much better when listening to familiar music, as
my mind works on remembering the lyrics and song design while my
analytical side is pondering the next step of my program.
So in this case, work was picturing the difficult images, play was
putting together the musical structures.
I still wonder what the CD ROM does, and if it helps you time to
coordination of song and story better? If it had maybe 100 pictures, I
could really put the story together, perhaps my visual side is just out
of whak.
Anyway, I love it.
Brad Waddell - FLEXquarters | May you find love. And when you do,
Phoenix Arizona USA | give it my e-mail address!
br...@aztec.asu.edu |
bob calbridge
Brad Waddell <fle...@netcom.com> wrote:
>I just could not put pictures to the Garden as others probably can, and
>in this I feel a bit cheated. Is this a defect in my head or just a lack
>of visual creativity, with plenty in the areas of audio stimuli? For
>example, I can remember all of the lyrics to thousands of songs in my LP
>and CD catalogs, even many I have not listened to in years.
Brad,
If it's you, then it's us. Your description of yourself was like
looking into a mirror (you have my sympathy. :-).) I think that
there are people who can see things in their head better than others.
I not only wish I were one of them, I've tried various techniques to
try to improve my capacity in that area. But I've had little success.
Then perhaps if I were to have this capability I'd probably be lacking
in some other characteristic, like logic. If I were trying to create
a song I'd probably start out by piecing things together. I think
people like Michael hear it full-blow and probably see things in it too.
Some of his works do inspire some emotional response in me, and a very
few are graphically stiring. But I don't otherwise get caught up in
the berserker type of reaction like those on the dance floor. It
just doesn't put my head in another space. Pity. It sounds like a
nice escape from the humdrum. But then again, I wouldn't want to be
caught up in it while driving down the road at 55 like some folks are.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- Bob Calbridge aka bcal...@nyx.cs.du.edu -
= Shingle also hung at rac115...@pcmail.dcccd.edu =
- Patience is a virtue, not a job requirement -
Karen R Pederson
On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, Tami Bassler wrote:
> >The Prison
> You've got me
> wanting to "do" it again, but all I've got is the Awareness CD,
> and that book is unreadable.
Tami, I saw a new CD issue of The Prison in my local store yesterday.
It's packaged like The Garden, so I assume that the booklet is
bigger, more readable. Maybe you need to get a new copy!
> For me, The Garden
> is a more familiar place--so many of my interests are
> here--gardening, Impressionism, light in all forms, telepathy,
> flying . . .
A 'familiar place'. hmmm. Is it just in your interests, those you listed,
that makes The Garden a 'familiar place'? Or do you get a feeling of deja
vu when you read/listen to it? Or, rather than a place where you've
BEEN...is it a place where you ARE?
> > Some people, I think,
> >tie in to the emotions more easily for whatever reason.
> I agree. Sometimes it's simply a matter of sensory perception,
> sometimes it's because a life event sharpens the emotions. I
> experienced this Garden in an INTENSELY emotional way, and
> partly it's because of Nez's skill, but it's also because of
> what's happening to ME. Strangely enough this CD arrived on the
> same day I found out my father is dying, so the two events are
> tied together forever. I really AM Jason, facing the monster,
> confronting mortality. Fear? It's all around me. This CD
> couldn't have come along at a better time. It's provided me
> with a way to vent pent-up emotions, but I also find it very
> soothing and comforting.
Yeah. Major life events have a tendency to experience things more
intensely, that's true. I can see why The Garden has been an especially
powerful experience for you.
And I agree....the ideas expressed in The Garden are very comforting.
For dealing with that fear that seems to be all around, I find a passage
from The Prison helpful:
Outside the wind beats unmercifully hard
Fear creeps like sand through the cracks
But inside the stillness is consciously formed
As false goals and egos relax
Hope that helps.....
> It's so cool that you can
share this experience with
your mom. > I can't wait to hear what she thinks about The Garden. Maybe
> she could do a "guest appearance" here?
Ha! I don't know about that! I'll be giving her a copy at Thanksgiving.
I'll let you know what she says. But a "guest appearance"? that would not be
likely! :-)
> My first experience with The Prison
> was in 1987, and it clicked the first time. It seemed so
> perfect I thought I'd never try it again, so I sold the record.
You didn't think you could experience it in the same way on a second
listening? well, it isn't ever the same....but it gets better each time,
as I'm sure you've discovered with The Garden.
Remember when you first asked about that line about getting "here" by
finding the "out" of the place you're "in"? and I said, isn't that from
The Prison? Well, the other night I was dancing between the raindrops on
my way home from the library, listening to The Prison on my
walkman, and I heard:
There is no way in
to where you already are
There is no way out
of everywhere
No satisfaction can come
to that which is fulfilled
And all the lies
will fall away
with the cares.....
I understand it in the same way you do. Getting 'here' is achieved just
by realizing that it is 'here' we have been all along. And 'here' we are:
complete, fulfilled.
Sure is nice to see some more responses along this thread.....they say if
you stay quiet long enough, someone will say something just to end the
silence! <g>
Karen
Karen R Pederson
On Sun, 6 Nov 1994, Brad Waddell wrote:
> I experienced The Garden tonight.
>
> Your comments are very interesting, because I am an extremely
> un-emotional person in many ways. I am very easy going, and feel that I
> never worry, so I don't experience intense fear or joy.
>
> Maybe thats why the story was wiped out by the music to me. I found
> myself ripping through the text at high speed and finding my mind
> wandering to experience the music over the text.
Hey, Brad, first of all.....great to hear your views expressed in this
thread. I was beginning wonder if anyone would jump into the fire, so to
speak.
I have only experienced The Garden once myself. My experience was just
the opposite....I could sense the music running ahead of me. I like to
take my time reading, stopping every now and then to visualize the images
Nez paints with words. and the music would be in the city streets, for
instance, and I was still in Treva's cafe. I was beginning to feel like
Jason, being pulled along faster than my mind was willing to move. I
finally decided to just read at the pace I was comfortable with, and let
the music go ahead. I was still reading 15 minutes after the CD ended!
Did anyone else have this experience?
> I don't see pictures, I hear words, I have a conversation along with the
> singer. I feel his emotion in the song.
>
> I just could not put pictures to the Garden as others probably can, and
> in this I feel a bit cheated. Is this a defect in my head or just a lack
> of visual creativity, with plenty in the areas of audio stimuli?
No, I don't think it's a "defect!" <g> Like you said, you relate to the
music, in your own way. I have to work harder at the visual aspect, too.
That's probably why it takes me so long to read it. I expect that after
repeated readings, it will come more easily.
> Anyway, I love it.
Yeah. Me too.
-Karen
Tami Bassler
> Your comments are very interesting, because I am an extremely
un-emotional
> person in many ways. I am very easy going, and feel that I
never worry, so
> I don't experience intense fear or joy.
would classify myself as emotional (some music and art brings
it out in me--the rest of the time I hide), but I do experience
joy. And fear. A LOT of fear. A lot of fear of absolutely
nothing. (Heck, writing this note in a public forum scares
me--but I push through the fear and do it anyway. That's part
of being an artist.) Perhaps I'm one of those bi-polar
personalities? I don't know . . . I just know that I have a
deep appreciation for a work of art which deals with fear like
The Garden does. Fear is a very isolating emotion and art that
deals with it makes me feel like I'm not alone . . .
>I've never been much of a reader, but have always had strong
emotions
>tied to music.
They're the ones you remember back in grade school who sat in
class and mouthed all the words to themselves (so they could
hear them). Oh, man, and what the educational system does to
aural people is criminal! All testing in school is geared
toward visual ways of thinking. I was an ACE in school--I knew
how to test well. But think of all the people in music with
brilliant minds who became sullen and rebellious in school
because the *tests* told them they were stupid!
When I read, even without music, I see very vivid pictures in
my mind. But I'm never going to have your appreciation for
music. Most of it goes right over my poor visual head . . . too
much complexity in music just sounds like noise to me. My idea
of noise? The Hellecasters backing Nez on a song like Total
Control. You would have loved it. I experienced sensory
shutdown . . .
> I don't see pictures, I hear words, I have a conversation
along with the
> singer. I feel his emotion in the song.
this--you don't see any pictures at all? For example, take
Silver Moon, which to me is a visual masterpiece. You don't see
the windmill or the clouds lit by the moon or the dust kicking
up around your boots? It's so real to me that I hear the slight
creak of the windmill, and if the windmill works, then the
cattle are bedded down nearby; there's a special peace cattle
have at night, but I feel a loneliness because I don't have
that peace within me; and dammit I hate having dirty boots even
if they are my sh__ kickers so I know I'm really depressed if
I'm kicking up dust and that same stupid moon that used to
shine on us is now shining on just me alone and there's a. . ..
Well, you get the "picture"? I'm totally THERE when I hear that
song. And notice I don't hear music in that place--weird, huh?
Like you, I feel his emotion--well, no, I interpret his emotion
and fit it into my own experience--but I'm getting there some
other way than you would. I don't know how to do it without
pictures! When you hear the word "moon", what does your mind
do to turn that word to emotion? You say you have a
conversation with the singer--what is that about? (Anybody else
have any thoughts on this? Do we all experience the same
emotions but in different ways?)
> I just could not put pictures to the Garden as others
probably can, and in
> this I feel a bit cheated. Is this a defect in my head or
just a lack of
> visual creativity, with plenty in the areas of audio stimuli?
For example,
> I can remember all of the lyrics to thousands of songs in my
LP and CD
> catalogs, even many I have not listened to in years.
play was putting
> together the musical structures.
that's all. You might never see pictures, but it sounds like
you don't NEED to--you're understanding it and enjoying it in
your own way. I do it my way. I think you should just let the
music carry you and forget the pictures--let the beauty of the
music relax you, and don't worry about your place in the book .
. I bet it'll come together when you least expect it . . .
Thanks, Brad . . . .
tami
Brad Waddell
: Brad Waddell <fle...@netcom.com> writes:
: > Your comments are very interesting, because I am an extremely
: un-emotional
: > person in many ways. I am very easy going, and feel that I
: never worry, so
: > I don't experience intense fear or joy.
: Wow. You sound like a very stable person.
Thank you.
: I don't know if I
: would classify myself as emotional (some music and art brings
: it out in me--the rest of the time I hide), but I do experience
: joy. And fear. A LOT of fear. A lot of fear of absolutely
: nothing.
I have wondered if having a middle-of-the-road emotional balance is
mostly good or bad. It seems that most people are not this way, so I
often wonder why they worry so much about things that have not happened.
I always figure you should be prepared to handle the problem if it
occurs, but don't anticipate it happening, because this is wasted energy.
Horror movies have the same effect on me as the Garden passage walking up
the stairs. Yea, and then? and then? The growing fear is just a waiting
period where some people would tense up, wheras I just wait for the next
fact to appear.
I would be a terrible fiction writer, because I don't think the waiting
periods and the atmosphere are relavant to the story, so I never include
them. The visual aspects are unimportant to the story to me. It's
interesting for me to contemplate this with you, Tami.
: >I've never been much of a reader, but have always had strong emotions
: >tied to music.
: You know, most audio-oriented people don't like to read.
: They're the ones you remember back in grade school who sat in
: class and mouthed all the words to themselves (so they could
: hear them).
This is great! I do this all the time and I was reading this line to
myself *out loud* just now! Whoa, you are right, audio is everything to
me, and when there is no sound, there is something missing.
: Oh, man, and what the educational system does to
: aural people is criminal! All testing in school is geared
: toward visual ways of thinking. I was an ACE in school--I knew
: how to test well. But think of all the people in music with
: brilliant minds who became sullen and rebellious in school
: because the *tests* told them they were stupid!
This is creepy, you know like when a fortune teller knows you a little
*too* well? I HATE tests, and not because I don't know the information,
because whenever I am asked for information, I can ALWAYS come up with
it. I was good in school but bad on tests.
Which discussion group is this again???
: When I read, even without music, I see very vivid pictures in
: my mind. But I'm never going to have your appreciation for
: music. Most of it goes right over my poor visual head . . . too
: much complexity in music just sounds like noise to me. My idea
: of noise? The Hellecasters backing Nez on a song like Total
: Control. You would have loved it. I experienced sensory
: shutdown . . .
Probably true. On first listen I hear the impact music makes on my
emotions, then I break apart the individual performances which make up
the work, then I turn my guesses on lyrics into reality by reading the
lyrics (after I know the vocal patterns), then the song really becomes a
part of me, and each time (usually) I focus on a different aspect of the
song with my aural sense, whether it is the bass, the harmony, rythym
changes, whatever. There is always something new I find in each piece
that I have not followed before. All 3 of my favorites challenge me in
just this way I now realize. In fact, when the new Sugar CD came out
last month, I felt a bit let down because the production was much
simpler, leaving less to discover as I had in previous work by the band.
: > I don't see pictures, I hear words, I have a conversation
: along with the
: > singer. I feel his emotion in the song.
: This is interesting--it's important for me to understand
: this--you don't see any pictures at all?
No. I'm thinking about the words, what comes next, how does he sing/say
it, what is the tone, how is the quality of the voice, what emotions are
present, how are the vocals skewed from the meter of the song.
For instance, I think it was either Britt or Austin City Limits where Nez
kept saying the wrong words to Rio, and saying the phrases later in the
beat than normal. This is the kind of thing that really throws be off
because *all* of the details of his recording are playing out in my mind,
and there are good and bad variations in live performance. Those which
are good are extra verses, extra choruses, excitement in the phrasing, or
even an entirely new song based on the old one (Nez live Papa Genes
Blues). The bad variations are mistakes, missed openings, wrong lyrics
(not changed, just in the wrong place) etc. This is the aural equivelant
of not watching where you are going and stepping on a big rock. You don't
trip, but you remember it.
: For example, take
: Silver Moon, which to me is a visual masterpiece. You don't see
: the windmill or the clouds lit by the moon or.....
: Well, you get the "picture"?
No, I don't! But talk to me more about it and I will still enjoy it,
because I will study which words you used and the patterns the words make
in my head as they flow from one concept to the next. Am I wigging you
out with this?
: When you hear the word "moon", what does your mind
: do to turn that word to emotion?
It's not what he says so much as the way he says it. This goes back to
earlier in this message when I say that the actual lyrics are not as
important to me as how they are performed, and I really see vocals as
just another instrument.
BTW - If you like The Garden, you need to pick up Night Music by Joe
Jackson. It's a symphony of emotion and words used sparingly to describe
the mood of each song. A masterpiece.
: You say you have a
: conversation with the singer--what is that about? (Anybody else
: have any thoughts on this? Do we all experience the same
: emotions but in different ways?)
We are singing in tandem, I make up new harmony parts and turn a 2 part
into a 3 part, I sing part, he sings part, etc. I especially like
"Eldorado" where the vocals are very difficult, intricate and delicate.
And when he talks through parts, it is interesting to put music to the
vocals in those areas as well.
: > I just could not put pictures to the Garden as others
: probably can, and in
: > this I feel a bit cheated. Is this a defect in my head or
: just a lack of
: > visual creativity, with plenty in the areas of audio stimuli?
: You're normal, I'm normal--we all have one dominent sense,
: that's all. You might never see pictures, but it sounds like
: you don't NEED to--you're understanding it and enjoying it in
: your own way. I do it my way. I think you should just let the
: music carry you and forget the pictures--let the beauty of the
: music relax you, and don't worry about your place in the book .
: . I bet it'll come together when you least expect it . . .
:
: Thanks, Brad . . . .
:
: tami
Thanks to you, and all of you. This is absolutely fascinating, even
though it is completely silent! Just remember me reading all of your
messages out loud to myself out here in the desert. And then as I listen
to the voice in my head come up with the answers and transcribe it back
to you!
Aural Brad
Karen R Pederson
On Mon, 7 Nov 1994, Brad Waddell wrote:
>
> : You say you have a
> : conversation with the singer--what is that about? (Anybody else
> : have any thoughts on this? Do we all experience the same
> : emotions but in different ways?)
>
> We are singing in tandem, I make up new harmony parts and turn a 2 part
> into a 3 part, I sing part, he sings part, etc. I especially like
> "Eldorado" where the vocals are very difficult, intricate and delicate.
> And when he talks through parts, it is interesting to put music to the
> vocals in those areas as well.
Whoa, this is really interesting! How differently we perceive the world....
I initially misunderstood your comment about having a conversation with
the singer. See, I often think in conversational terms....kind of like
daydreaming, but with a purpose. I go back and have the conversation over
again, many times, and each time I develop my thought more fully.
I thought that this was the sort of experience you were talking about,
but I see i was wrong. Thanks for clarifying. And, I think you've helped
me understand the way a friend of mine hears music, 'cause she's always
making up new harmonies, as you described. She's also very good with the
computer stuff, but she is visual in the sense that she has a ... oh,
what do you call it? A photographic memory? Well, you know what I mean.
I think this all has to do with that right brain, left brain stuff. You
know, analytical vs. creative. What do you think?
I lean more towards the analytical side myself. But, there are some songs
that I find VERY easy to visualize....For instance, there's that one song
on Nevada Fighter...."Texas Morning," I think, is the name of that song.
Can you really say that you can't picture Nez on his motorcycle riding
through a dusty Texas town, meeting Cactus Jack, and all of that? It
paints such a clear picture! I'm not saying that you *should* be able to,
it's just that I couldn't *not* picture it if I tried. On the other hand,
I can't separate the layers of the music the way you can. That's a talent
I wish I had!
Thanks for opening the door to such a fascinating discussion!
anyone else have thoughts on this? Anyone? Anyone?
-Karen
Tami Bassler
> A 'familiar place'. hmmm. Is it just in your interests, those
you listed,
> that makes The Garden a 'familiar place'? Or do you get a
feeling of deja
> vu when you read/listen to it? Or, rather than a place where
you've
> BEEN...is it a place where you ARE?
but mostly I was speaking in a more literal sense. The garden
is physically a REAL place, and I'm aware of it partly through
my interests in gardening and painting. It's Monet's garden at
Giverny. I haven't been there yet, but I've read enough about
it in art and gardening books to feel I have. I've seen it
photos, I've experienced it through Monet's paintings. And now
I've experienced it a different way through Nez's rendering
(footsteps on gravel--sound--a new dimension) . . . .
The tie-in to Giverny is nice. Monet said he owed becoming a
painter to flowers. I think of Monet as a gardener first, a
painter second. He gardened that spot for decades, with the
help of his wife and children. (Life Becoming?)
A lot of plant names are used in some scenes in the book . . .
I'm not familiar with all of them, but I know enough so that as
I read I can form fairly accurate pictures in my mind. Nez
gives you colors, in case you don't know the flowers, but it's
a more "real" place when you can picture the flower. (Ficus
carica? I'm glad he didn't use the common name. Rivina
vernalis? Is it real? I can't find it!)
Some people and places are familiar because because my mind
associates them with real things. Don't you do that, Karen?
Couldn't your City be Portland, with roses in the Garden? I
could easily imagine that. My City is San Francisco, with its
contiguous buildings and cool, clear air. Brad could probably
find a tie-in to Phoenix. That's Impressionistic art at its
best--the artist lets you fill in the details with your
experience, so it becomes a painting of your place, not his.
Enough of this artsy-fartsy stuff for now! I'm really
interested in how you guys perceive sound and music . . . . see
you in another article . . . . tami
Tami Bassler
> I think that there are people
> who can see things in their head better than others. I not
only wish I
> were one of them, I've tried various techniques to try to
improve my
> capacity in that area. But I've had little success.
really, Bob, I'm hoping you stick around to discuss this,
because I've noticed you are a very aural person, and also very
logical/left brain. I always love reading your posts because
you and I are such complete opposites in the way we think. It's
amazing we share can some of the same tastes in music but
access the music in different ways.
Have you ever tried Betty Edwards techniques for learning to
see? She wrote a couple of great books--the first was "Drawing
on the Right Side of the Brain".
>I think people like Michael hear it full-blown and
>probably see things in it too.
different going on in the way he organizes his thoughts.
tami
bob calbridge
>periods and the atmosphere are relavant to the story, so I never include
>them. The visual aspects are unimportant to the story to me. It's
>interesting for me to contemplate this with you, Tami.
I share your POV on this. I'm very impatient to get to the meat
of the matter. I've had a story in my head for years and once got
started on it. But I knew that I could tell the story in about five
pages if I wanted to. The same with programs. I can see the logic
full-blown in my head and want to skip the matter of actually typing
in the code.
The strange thing is, one of my favorite Sci-Fi writers is quite
wordy and usually takes three to four good sized novels to tell his
story. But I ahng in there.
Brad Waddell
: On Mon, 7 Nov 1994, Brad Waddell wrote:
: > : You say you have a
: > : conversation with the singer--what is that about? (Anybody else
: > : have any thoughts on this? Do we all experience the same
: > : emotions but in different ways?)
: >
: > We are singing in tandem, I make up new harmony parts and turn a 2 part
: > into a 3 part, I sing part, he sings part, etc. I especially like
: > "Eldorado" where the vocals are very difficult, intricate and delicate.
: > And when he talks through parts, it is interesting to put music to the
: > vocals in those areas as well.
: Whoa, this is really interesting! How differently we perceive the world....
: I initially misunderstood your comment about having a conversation with
: the singer. See, I often think in conversational terms....kind of like
: daydreaming, but with a purpose. I go back and have the conversation over
: again, many times, and each time I develop my thought more fully.
Sort of like I'm part of the band, rehearsing and producing the music.
Thats why I find variations of the song and re-workings so fascinating.
Related to this, I just got tickets for Joe Jackson in LA, and he will be
performing his varied musical history almost entirely on synthesizer. He
re-works his songs for nearly every tour, and I love it!
: I think this all has to do with that right brain, left brain stuff. You
: know, analytical vs. creative. What do you think?
I agree, I tend to take it apart, then put it back together again.
: I lean more towards the analytical side myself. But, there are some songs
: that I find VERY easy to visualize....For instance, there's that one song
: on Nevada Fighter...."Texas Morning," I think, is the name of that song.
: Can you really say that you can't picture Nez on his motorcycle riding
: through a dusty Texas town, meeting Cactus Jack, and all of that? It
: paints such a clear picture! I'm not saying that you *should* be able to,
: it's just that I couldn't *not* picture it if I tried. On the other hand,
: I can't separate the layers of the music the way you can. That's a talent
: I wish I had!
I don't get a picture, no.
: Thanks for opening the door to such a fascinating discussion!
I agree! I find it very very interesting. Thanks Karen!
Brad Waddell - FLEXquarters | "I dont love you, but I'm lost,
Phoenix Arizona USA | thinking of you, and the ghosts of so
many
br...@aztec.asu.edu | special moments, that passed so quickly
http://www.primenet.com/~flex/ | at the time" - Joe Jackson
Karen R Pederson
On Mon, 7 Nov 1994, Tami Bassler wrote:
> Karen R Pederson <k...@gladstone.uoregon.edu> wrote:
> A little of what I meant was that the concepts are familiar,
> but mostly I was speaking in a more literal sense. The garden
> is physically a REAL place, and I'm aware of it partly through
> my interests in gardening and painting. It's Monet's garden at
> Giverny.
> it's
> a more "real" place when you can picture the flower. (Ficus
> carica? I'm glad he didn't use the common name. Rivina
> vernalis? Is it real? I can't find it!)
Don't ask me! You know I know nothing about plants...what did you say
ficus carica was? Fig tree?
> Some people and places are familiar because because my mind
> associates them with real things. Don't you do that, Karen?
Yes, sometimes I do associate people and places with
familiar things,but this is not one of those cases. In fact, as I was
reading The Garden I realized that my picture of Jason has never fully
developed into a visual image. I think I was just as struck by the image
reflected in the water as Jason was.
How I "see" it is hard to put into words, but I'll try....
Let's take Jason, for instance. I view him more as a channel for the
communication of ideas, so there is no need to visualise a human being.
It is similar to knowing that sound is a result of vibrations of air
molecules, but it is not necessary to "see" sound in order to receive an
audio message.
That isn't very clear, but it's the best I can do for now.
> That's Impressionistic
art at its > best--the artist lets you fill in the details with your
> experience, so it becomes a painting of your place, not his.
Well, you would know better than I, being a painter yourself. I think of
paintings in more of the photographic sense, a recording of a particular
place at a particular time. I let a painting (Monet's "Morning on the
Seine" for example) transport me to another place, another time.
I think it's time to put on another pot of coffee....this discussion may
go on awhile.... :-)
Karen
TAMI BASSLER
>Which discussion group is this again???
Uh . . . Sensory Perception 101? No, really, I think we are right on
target when we talk about this stuff. It has everything to do with The
Garden, and Nez's entire career. I can't think of anyone else who bridges
the gaps in sensory perception as well.
Can you imagine what Nez must think if he reads this stuff? Next time he's
on stage he's going to look at his audience in a whole new way . . . all
these people having strange and differing explosions of thought in their
brains . . .
>On first listen I hear the impact music makes on my
>emotions, then I break apart the individual performances
>which make up the work, then I turn my guesses on
>lyrics into reality by reading the lyrics (after I know the
>vocal patterns), then the song really becomes a part of
>me, and each time (usually) I focus on a different aspect
>of the song with my aural sense, whether it is the bass,
>the harmony, rythym changes, whatever. There is always
>something new I find in each piece that I have not
>followed before.
You know, that's a great description--I get a feel for what you're
experiencing. And you helped clear up a couple of little mysteries for
me--for example, the discussions of "correct" lyrics confuse me--I had no
idea why anyone would care, unless the missing lyric is a key to
understanding the entire song. But I guess if you're singing along in
your head, doing harmony and everything, you need to know the right
words. . .
Another thing I never understood is why people who like music listen to
the same songs over and over again. I have very little tolerance for that
kind of repetiton (except for " . . . t. c's . . ." which I've listened
to three or four hundred times, still trying to solve the mystery of the
"voices"). I guess there's not enough depth in my perception for me to
make all the discoveries you do. I feel like I'm missing out!
The first time I listen to a song, I immediately start matching pictures
to sound, because there is no sound for me without a picture. I remember
very vividly seeing Michael do Propinquity in San Francisco in '92. That
has since become one of my favorite songs, but at the time I'd never
heard it. In the days after the concert, I wanted to play it over in my
head, but to do that, I had to follow a visual path you would probably
find bizarre:
No sound, just sight: First, I'd visualize his hand, strumming the guitar.
That would cue the sound in my head. Okay, the guitar's going . . . now
follow the tie (a very nice tie) up to the face . . . the mouth is moving,
words are forming . . .I can almost read his lips . . . Okay!! Got it!
I can hear the song! (Fortunately, it's usually not as hard or involved
as that.)
>For instance, I think it was either Britt or Austin City
>Limits where Nez kept saying the wrong words to Rio,
>and saying the phrases later in the beat than normal.
>This is the kind of thing that really throws be off
>because *all* of the details of his recording are playing
>out in my mind,
And I never even noticed . . . .
>or even an entirely new song based on the old one
>(Nez live Papa Genes Blues).
And I never even . . . aw, man, now I'm gonna have to listen to a Monkees
record to hear the original! You're a cruel man, Brad!
>: You say you have a
>: conversation with the singer--what is that about?
>We are singing in tandem, I make up new harmony parts
>and turn a 2 part into a 3 part, I sing part, he sings part,
>etc. I especially like "Eldorado" where the vocals are very
>difficult, intricate and delicate. And when he talks through
>parts, it is interesting to put music to the vocals in those
>areas as well.
Question: Is the artist purposely leaving those harmony parts open for
you? Is he inviting your participation? (A quote about Lindsey Buckinham:
"He's not great because of what he plays. He is great because of what he
*doesn't* play.")
You know, I almost know what you mean about making up harmony parts--I
think I do the same thing with Propinquity, and maybe even Harmony
Constant. I stop myself from doing more of that kind of thing because I
feel I do it badly, and butcher the song.
Also, part of my joy in discovering The Prison was the feeling that
someone had finally given me an instrument I could play (reading--I can
do that!) and let me join the band. It was a new thrill . . .
Another question: Do you sing well? Do you play any instruments?
(Not that it's going to surprise anybody, but I don't!)
tami
TAMI BASSLER
>I lean more towards the analytical side myself. But,
>there are some songs that I find VERY easy to visualize....
>For instance, there's that one song on Nevada Fighter....
>"Texas Morning," I think, is the name of that song.Can you
>really say that you can't picture Nez on his motorcycle riding
>through a dusty Texas town, meeting Cactus Jack, and all
>of that? It paints such a clear picture!
Oh, wow--another difference in perception! I agree this song is easy to
visualize, but we come at it from two different directions. I don't SEE
the character in the story, I AM the character. When I think of that song,
I see the postcard rack very clearly, I feel the cool metal as I turn it
(it creaks a little), I see the card of the little girl with the shetland
pony, I reach out my hand to pick it up . . . . the hand is big and red
and hairy and . . . hey, wait a minute, that's not MY hand . . . . . . !
Sometimes I do see Nez in relation to one of his songs, but that's
because those were the songs I first heard live. Some of the songs I
first heard on records have some strange visualizations hooked up with
them. " . . .tropical campfire's . . . " has camels on it. Big, goofy
camels, in a caravan, wearing big goofy camel grins. They walk in a
caravan across the desert, their steps in time to the music. I hate it--
I'm thinking about that poor lost bird, and then these stupid camels walk
into the scene. Now they're in The Garden, too . . . they shouldn't be
there, but I can't make them go away . . .
>what did you say ficus carica was? Fig tree?
Yeah, fig. Very Adam and Eve. But Fig would be a lousy name for a song .
. . although if you put one in a brunette wig it might be attractive . .
Brad Waddell
: fle...@netcom.com (Brad Waddell) writes:
: >Which discussion group is this again???
: Uh . . . Sensory Perception 101? No, really, I think we are right on
: target when we talk about this stuff. It has everything to do with The
: Garden, and Nez's entire career. I can't think of anyone else who bridges
: the gaps in sensory perception as well.
What I find interesting is that the man who supposedly invented the
concept of music videos as promotional tools, which are visual artists
renditions of the concepts of music, then he goes and gives us the exact
opposite, a concept of music where you are literally forced to create
your own images to the music with no help.
: Can you imagine what Nez must think if he reads this stuff? Next time he's
: on stage he's going to look at his audience in a whole new way . . . all
: these people having strange and differing explosions of thought in their
: brains . . .
His SF show was so relaxing, he wanted to keep us from going to sleep, so
we had a "seventh inning stretch". Perhaps he should try more in the way
of lights on his shows, to evoke the feelings of the songs, as he
describes in the book.
: >something new I find in each piece that I have not
: >followed before.
: You know, that's a great description--I get a feel for what you're
: experiencing. And you helped clear up a couple of little mysteries for
: me--for example, the discussions of "correct" lyrics confuse me--I had no
: idea why anyone would care, unless the missing lyric is a key to
: understanding the entire song. But I guess if you're singing along in
: your head, doing harmony and everything, you need to know the right
: words. . .
You don't need to know them, but some of the words you make up sound
pretty odd when sung out-loud (when anyones around!). You can sing with
more confidence when you know the words, and remembering them becomes a
little mental excersize. I know all the words to my favorite 3 movies for
instance.
: Another thing I never understood is why people who like music listen to
: the same songs over and over again. I have very little tolerance for that
: kind of repetiton (except for " . . . t. c's . . ." which I've listened
: to three or four hundred times, still trying to solve the mystery of the
: "voices"). I guess there's not enough depth in my perception for me to
: make all the discoveries you do. I feel like I'm missing out!
Tell me where these parts are again and I'll listen for it, perhaps I can
detect it.
Why would anyone want to actually "look" at the paintings in their
house? I feel like I see it all at first glance. My guess is that you do not!
: The first time I listen to a song, I immediately start matching pictures
: to sound, because there is no sound for me without a picture.
I feel the opposite! Silence bothers me, makes me impatiant.
: No sound, just sight: First, I'd visualize his hand, strumming the guitar.
: That would cue the sound in my head. Okay, the guitar's going . . . now
: follow the tie (a very nice tie) up to the face . . . the mouth is moving,
: words are forming . . .I can almost read his lips . . . Okay!! Got it!
: I can hear the song! (Fortunately, it's usually not as hard or involved
: as that.)
Sounds like the opening to "Rodan"!
: >For instance, I think it was either Britt or Austin City
: >Limits where Nez kept saying the wrong words to Rio,
: >and saying the phrases later in the beat than normal.
: >This is the kind of thing that really throws be off
: >because *all* of the details of his recording are playing
: >out in my mind,
: And I never even noticed . . . .
Really? Thats amazing! How could you have missed it! Now I find that
incredible. I would assume you would always choose a camera over a tape
recorder at a concert? I can always relive the entire show with a tape,
but the pictures don't say anything to me.
: >or even an entirely new song based on the old one
: >(Nez live Papa Genes Blues).
: And I never even . . . aw, man, now I'm gonna have to listen to a Monkees
: record to hear the original! You're a cruel man, Brad!
AH HA HA HA HA HA! (an evil laugh) Work on it Tami!
: Question: Is the artist purposely leaving those harmony parts open for
: you? Is he inviting your participation? (A quote about Lindsey Buckinham:
: "He's not great because of what he plays. He is great because of what he
: *doesn't* play.")
As an example of this: listen to Carioca on Infinite Rider, then the
remix on Newer Stuff - It's exactly the same performance, but by
removing 2 tracks it is a completely different song. The former a fun
romantic romp, the latter a haunting romantic piece that is eerie and
full of emotion. They are both still great!
Work on THAT Tami! AH HA HA HA HA HA!
: You know, I almost know what you mean about making up harmony parts--I
: think I do the same thing with Propinquity, and maybe even Harmony
: Constant. I stop myself from doing more of that kind of thing because I
: feel I do it badly, and butcher the song.
I love that scene in Spinal Tap!
: Also, part of my joy in discovering The Prison was the feeling that
: someone had finally given me an instrument I could play (reading--I can
: do that!) and let me join the band. It was a new thrill . . .
Whoa, excellent point! Very interesting, I wonder if he meant it this way?
: Another question: Do you sing well? Do you play any instruments?
: (Not that it's going to surprise anybody, but I don't!)
I sing pretty well, yes. I attempt to play instruments, mostly keyboards.
I also try to impersonate the tone and inflection of each singer I sing
with, so not only do I remember all lyrics and tune, but also *exactly*
how they pronounced each word, and the exact timing of their phrasing.
Hey, everyones got a hobby!
: tami
Mine is evil laughs! AH HA HA HA HA HA!!!
Brad Waddell - FLEXquarters | "I dont love you, but I'm lost,
Phoenix Arizona USA | thinking of you, and the ghosts of
br...@aztec.asu.edu | so many special moments, that passed
http://www.primenet.com/~flex/ | so quickly at the time" - Joe Jackson
Karen R Pederson
On 10 Nov 1994, TAMI BASSLER wrote:
> Can you imagine what Nez must think if he reads this stuff? Next time he's
> on stage he's going to look at his audience in a whole new way . . . all
> these people having strange and differing explosions of thought in their
> brains . . .
What an interesting thought! But you know what? I bet he was already
aware. However,*I* wasn't....so this will add yet another
dimension to the concert experience for me!
I hope he does read this stuff, though, if just to know how his
creative work inspires others...
> Another thing I never understood is why people who like music listen to
> the same songs over and over again. I have very little tolerance for that
> kind of repetiton
I think it's the familiarity that makes people feel secure. It's like
that for me, anyway. Old songs are old friends I enjoy visiting, time
and time again....with all the change going on in the world today, it's
nice to know that some things stay the same.
(except for " . . . t. c's . . ." which I've listened
> to three or four hundred times, still trying to solve the mystery of the
> "voices").
Still hearing the voices? [music up: theme from Twilight Zone] ;-)
Alas, I can only hear the ones you pointed out to me ("One....").
And didn't you tell me you also hear voices throughout The Garden? I
think I heard some when I was reading the story along with it, but when I
listen to the CD alone, I only hear instruments.
Along this line, I thought it was interesting what you said, Brad, about
the voice being another instrument. That would account for Nez's
describing The Garden as instrumentals even when vocals are present
throughout....
> In the days after the concert, I wanted to play it over in my
> head, but to do that, I had to follow a visual path you would probably
> find bizarre:
>
> No sound, just sight: First, I'd visualize his hand, strumming the guitar.
> That would cue the sound in my head.
Well, I wouldn't call it "bizarre," but I think it definately says you
are a very visual person! I am trying to think of times when visual
images spark sound, specifically music, in my mind, but the only visuals
I can come up with already have sound built in....and in my mind, I simply
augment the existing sounds (eg, waves on the shore, wind through the trees)
> >For instance, I think it was either Britt or Austin City
> >Limits where Nez kept saying the wrong words to Rio,
> >and saying the phrases later in the beat than normal.
> >This is the kind of thing that really throws be off
> >because *all* of the details of his recording are playing
> >out in my mind,
> And I never even noticed . . . .
Me either!
CMontague
(TAMI BASSLER ) writes:
>Yeah, fig. Very Adam and Eve. But Fig would be a lousy name for a song .
> . . although if you put one in a brunette wig it might be attractive . .
And it would go well with a blond plum in drag....