Who Else Should Be In The Jann Wenner Hall of Infamy
catg...@aol.com
inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame (hereinafter referred to
as the Jann Wenner Hall of Infamy) and the many acts from the 50s, 60s
and 70s still waiting for a nod, who are the other solo artists and
bands that you feel deserve a nod?
My choices would include the following:
The Raiders
Jackie DeShannon
Tommy James and the Shondells
Johnny Rivers
Linda Ronstadt (it's a crock, to have the band she had a hand in
putting together, the Eagles, but not her)
The Moody Blues
ABBA
The Tremeloes
Steppenwolf
Harry Nilsson
Neil Diamond
The Guess Who
Bachman Turner Overdrive
Deep Purple
Steve Miller Band
Three Dog Night
Fanny (one of the first all female rock bands)
I don't believe any of the above are in the Jann Wenner Hall of Infamy
but they deserve to be considered. ABBA did receive a nomination but
wasn't among the inductees -- anyone who thinks they aren't rock and
roll needs to have a listen to some of their pre-"Dancing Queen"
recordings. They probably won't receive a nod because the prevailing
attitude seems to be if the band or artist is liked by the fans or
their influence may be highly questionable, that's something on which
the act can be disqualified. As if that ever stopped the Wenner hall
from nominating their own personal favorites and possibly highly
questionable influential artists.
Ron Fowler
proper rock and roll hall of fame. I think the ptb lost sight of what a
rock and roll hall of fame should be years ago. Abba is one of the best
selling groups worldwide of all time. They seem to be every musicians
guilty pleasure. Of course they should be in. Their songs have lasted
through the years, and I think that should be one of the main reasons
for consideration into the hall. I'm surprised they've passed over Linda
so far, a lot of her peers are in - Jackson Browne, the Eagles, James
Taylor come to mind. I mean, how does Madonna get in and Linda
Ronstadt's not? She's sung just about every kind of song, and done them
well, does Wenner's group percieve that to be a weakness? Steppenwolf
and the Guess Who would both seem to be no-brainers. How many bar bands
have you heard attempt "Born to Be Wild" or "American Woman"? The
Raiders are probably viewed with contempt by the HOF crowd because of
their onstage silliness, but they made some of the best records of the
60's and 70's, and in their own way pioneered the connection between
music and television, as did our beloved Monkees. Are there any better
rock and roll singers than Mark Lindsay or Burton Cummings?
The
my belief that Johnny Rivers, Linda Ronstadt, ABBA, Steppenwolf,
Nilsson, Neil Diamond and The Steve Miller Band are pretty much For
Sures.
I really liked The Tremaloes. Thank you for reminding me of them! I
haven't thought about them in years.
catg...@aol.com
> proper rock and roll hall of fame. I think the ptb lost sight of what a
> rock and roll hall of fame should be years ago. Abba is one of the best
> selling groups worldwide of all time. They seem to be every musicians
> guilty pleasure. Of course they should be in. Their songs have lasted
> through the years, and I think that should be one of the main reasons
> for consideration into the hall.
ABBA meets all of the criteria for a nomination and sure would seem to
be a sure shot for being voted in. They have been a major, major
influence on the music business and other artists, respected by many
if not all of their peers, have sold a lot of recordings -- not bad
for a band with only seven or eight regular studio albums, a live
album and a couple of greatest hits packages with much of their music
timeless. Their music will be among a handful of songs by artists that
will outlive the ones who created the music. They will be the rock and
roll equivalent (or pop equivalent for the more purist minded reading
these words and recoiling in horror) of the classical composers and
performers.
>I'm surprised they've passed over Linda so far, a lot of her peers are in - >Jackson Browne, the Eagles, James Taylor come to mind. I mean, how >does Madonna get in and Linda Ronstadt's not? She's sung just about every >kind of song, and done them well, does Wenner's group percieve that to be >a weakness?
I'm guessing Linda's main sin is that she's not a songwriter with a
minor sin of having done more covers than having at the least original
tunes from outside sources. I think a slip up on the part of Linda's
managements was not having music publishing companies set up on her
behalf that could've resulted in her having enough tunes to make up
several albums without having to solely rely on covers. But, Linda
deserves a nod for at least having put the Eagles together, for
recognizing up and coming songwriters like Jackson Browne and Karla
Bonoff, helping to keep the memory of Buddy Holly alive, visiting or
revisiting other musical genres that are part of the rock influence
and goodness knows what else. If Linda doesn't deserve consideration,
then neither did any of the artists associated with her. But, they're
in there and she's not but deserves to be. What hypocrisy by the hall!
>Steppenwolf and the Guess Who would both seem to be no-brainers. How >many bar bands have you heard attempt "Born to Be Wild" or "American >Woman"?
John Kay and Steppenwolf are by definition, the spirit of what rock
was supposed to be: fun, serious and rebellious. No one better than
they ever captured that spirit any better than they did with "Born to
Be Wild." They sized up politics far better than did most of their
contemporaries with "Monster" - would our country have been in better
shape if the establishment had listened to the words of "Monster"
rather than the words of Richard Nixon? "Monster" is just as relevant
today but you don't hear it on the radio quite so much.
The Guess Who were the other side of the Steppenwolf coin. "American
Woman" was as biting if not more than what "Monster" was, but the
Guess Who recognized that not every song they did needed to convey a
message. Too many artists and bands focused more on their songs having
a message than in just having fun in the 60s and the 70s. Somewhere
artists and bands forgot the message could be about fun; it didn't
have to be too serious all of the time.
>The Raiders are probably viewed with contempt by the HOF crowd because >of their onstage silliness, but they made some of the best records of the
> 60's and 70's, and in their own way pioneered the connection between
> music and television, as did our beloved Monkees. Are there any better
> rock and roll singers than Mark Lindsay or Burton Cummings?
I'd forgotten about the Raiders's silliness but that should be
overlooked when it comes to their music. The Raiders and the Monkees
had a TV connection but the hypocrisy of the Wenner bloc is showing in
that the late Rick Nelson's musical career was launched by television.
And he's in, so why not the Raiders and the Monkees? Double standards.
Rick, by his own admission didn't actually play guitar when he was
starting out. But, he learned to play the guitar and played on his
recordings and like Nesmith, had an interest in country music. Still,
his family's TV show helped launch his musical career and his dad
helped produce those records. Without the TV show, would he have had a
musical career? I think he would have but not quite as successful.
catg...@aol.com
> my belief that Johnny Rivers, Linda Ronstadt, ABBA, Steppenwolf,
> Nilsson, Neil Diamond and The Steve Miller Band are pretty much For
> Sures.
I've also heard there are many within the hall who are not so
resistant to the Monkees being nominated, voted on and inducted, just
that the Wenner bloc has enough votes to keep them from being
nominated. I think that Rivers and Ronstadt, because their careers
consisted of so many covers, will have the hardest time of any
securing a nomination to be voted on, even though each have enough
credentials to make them worthy of a nomination. Neil Diamond may not
have always been rock but can't the same thing be said about all of
the Motown artists that are in the hall? Not to disparage any of the
great acts that was from Motown, just that some of the Motown music
veered closer to pop music than rock or soul.
> I really liked The Tremaloes. Thank you for reminding me of them! I
> haven't thought about them in years.
There's quite a few videos of them available on Youtube, including
live performances of the Tremeloes performing "Silence Is Golden" and
"Here Comes My Baby." Those guys had some tight harmonies, something a
lot of other groups didn't have. Davy probably breathed a sigh of
relief because the Tremeloes weren't very big in the US. If they had
been, bassist Len "Chip" Hawkes could've given Davy a run for his
money as far as having had the potential to have been a teen idol.
It's all the more shocking he wasn't a teen idol; he was/is the same
age as Davy but in the videos for their two biggest hits here in the
US, he looks all of 17 or 18 and not a day older.
Ron Fowler
rock and roll act, but he sure got his start in the pop/rock field. I
don't know what Cherry, Cherry, I'm a Believer, and Thank the Lord for
the Nighttime are if they're not great pop rock and roll songs. The best
of his songs through the years - Shilo, Solitary Man, Sweet Caroline,
Cracklin' Rosie, among others - are classics. Anyone who thinks their
too cool to like his music is too hung up on their idea of hipness. The
Monkees and the Raiders definately belong in the hall. I'm not sure Rick
Nelson would've gotten in if it hadn't been for his untimely death. He
faced the same kind of prejudice from critics as the Monkees and the
Raiders - he owed his initial success as a singer to television, and he
was also extremely good looking. He barely knew how to play the guitar
when he started, and his songs were supplied by writers like Dorsey and
Johnny Burnette, Baker Knight, and Sharon Sheely. He became and
excellent rhythm guitarist, and in time, was even writing some of his
own material. The Raiders were a working band long before getting their
big break on Where the Action Is. They were known as rock and roll party
animals in their homeground of the Pacific Northwest. TV just happened
to be the thing that broke them nationally. I wonder if there's been
resentment all these years that "these clowns" from the NW "got lucky"
because of television exposure. Maybe other bands felt "hey, give us
national tv exposure and we'll be able to sell records, too". Whatever
the case, it's ridiculous they aren't in the HOF yet.
catg...@aol.com
> I'd vote for Neil Diamond, and I know a lot of people think he is not a
> rock and roll act, but he sure got his start in the pop/rock field. I
> don't know what Cherry, Cherry, I'm a Believer, and Thank the Lord for
> the Nighttime are if they're not great pop rock and roll songs. The best
> of his songs through the years - Shilo, Solitary Man, Sweet Caroline,
> Cracklin' Rosie, among others - are classics. Anyone who thinks their
> too cool to like his music is too hung up on their idea of hipness.
Diamond should be in the hall because of all those songs. Some of his
later material may not sit well with some of the members who nominate
the artists. But, still, if they have no problem with his earlier
material, they should be prepared to nominate him. Quite a few of the
artists in the hall didn't have long music careers; I'd consider it
another form of hypocrisy if the hall judged Diamond by all of his
career. He was a rocker in his earlier, still is in my book although
these days he is more of a middle of the road pop performer.
>The Monkees and the Raiders definately belong in the hall. I'm not sure Rick
> Nelson would've gotten in if it hadn't been for his untimely death. He
> faced the same kind of prejudice from critics as the Monkees and the
> Raiders - he owed his initial success as a singer to television, and he
> was also extremely good looking. He barely knew how to play the guitar
> when he started, and his songs were supplied by writers like Dorsey and
> Johnny Burnette, Baker Knight, and Sharon Sheely. He became and
> excellent rhythm guitarist, and in time, was even writing some of his
> own material.
I think a sympathy vote owing to Rick's untimely death by the
nominating members was a possibility. Then again, I think many
would've nominated Rick because he was from the time when many of the
hall members were teens. That's where I think that most of them are
just a little too hypocritical. Nelson was part of their teen lives.
It's okay for them to nominate artists they liked as teen. It's not
okay to nominate other artists or groups who were teen idols to
another generation of teens, even if the differences iin age was less
than ten years.
>The Raiders were a working band long before getting their
> big break on Where the Action Is. They were known as rock and roll party
> animals in their homeground of the Pacific Northwest. TV just happened
> to be the thing that broke them nationally. I wonder if there's been
> resentment all these years that "these clowns" from the NW "got lucky"
> because of television exposure. Maybe other bands felt "hey, give us
> national tv exposure and we'll be able to sell records, too". Whatever
> the case, it's ridiculous they aren't in the HOF yet.
That has to be another possibility as well as more hypocrisy. They
didn't come from Los Angeles, San Francisco, New York City, England or
any of the communities that gave start to a lot of rock and rollers.
Location shouldn't be part of the equation but I got a feeling it is.
Ron Fowler
and Roll Hall of Snobbery. We have Paul Allen's Experience Music Project
in Seattle, which features a Northwest Passage devoted to all the great
bands to come out of the region. The Raiders are heavily represented
there, along with the Kingsmen, the Fabulous Wailers, the Sonics, Heart,
Nirvana, Pearl Jam, and many others. Jimi Hendrix is also very prominent
in the museum. There is mention made in his exhibit of the infamous tour
with the Monkees. It wouldn't surprise me if they do some kind of
exhibit about the connection between pop music and tv. They had a Disney
exhibit running for a year or so that focused on the music of the Disney
films and tv shows. I got a kick out of seeing Annette sing "Monkey's
Uncle" with the Beach Boys. Now it's time for them to get a "Monkees
Uncle" in there....or a "Monkees Pa". lol
catg...@aol.com
Amen. There's also the Vocal Group Hall of Fame, which I think the
Monkees should be given a serious consideration for membership. But,
I've always advocated the need for another rock and roll hall of fame,
one that isn't quite so snobbish, fan based as well as made up of
members from the music industry. I would, for starters, automatically
induct all of those who are in the Whiner Hall of Snobbery but then
come up with a list of 30 artists and groups from the 50s and 60s and
25 from the 70s and 10 to 15 from the 80s and then require a simple
majority of 51% for the artist or group to be inducted. The emphasis
and difference from Wenner's hall would be that it would be dedicated
to remembering what rock and roll was all about, which was about
having fun, something to do and what it meant to be young. I thought
rock became a little pretentious with all of the artists or groups who
felt their songs had to be loaded with political messages or they were
so serious about their songs, thinking every song was a work of art.
But, all too often, that wasn't the case.
Ron Fowler
entertaining. I'm okay with messages, but many of the pretentious,
overly serious acts had nothing to say! Give me the Monkees any day!
They had their messages, too, but that was always offset by their
humour. And they do belong in the vocal group hall of fame. They
actually had a very special vocal blend, even if it was rarely taken
advantage of on records. Pleasant Valley Sunday and Words are two
excellent examples.
catg...@aol.com
Thanks for the compliment. I was okay with messages in songs when I
was in my teens but that was something I grew out of in my 20s. I was
even okay with some of the art rock but I thought a lot of the acts
took themselves and their music too seriously. Not that there's
anything wrong with an artist or a group taking their music seriously
but some took their music seriously in an extreme way.
The Monkees's voices blended quite well together. It's surprising that
Tommy and Bobby felt the need to bring in outside voices for the
backing vocals. And it's a pity Jeff Barry couldn't have found a way
to have a truce with Mike during the sessions he produced and had him
on those sessions. The best way would've been the simplest: an apology
for his joke about having horns and strings on "I'm a Believer." I'm
like Nez on that one: I think horns and strings probably could've
worked on IAB. But, at least during the Kirshner era, Michael was
willing to have Micky, Davy and Peter as backing vocalists on his
songs. Likewise, Chip managed to get a nice vocal blend that
occasionally featured all four: "All of Your Toys," "Pleasant Valley
Sunday," "Words," etc. I think Michael is on "Shades of Gray,"
although the notes in the booklet for the various "Headquarters"
reissues and Andrew's book says he's not on the song. However, they
also didn't have Davy on "Sunny Girlfriend" initially, although I
could hear him in the background. I believe the deluxe edition of
"Headquarters" now includes Davy on backing vocals, in addition to his
percussion work.But, it's a real shame the Monkees didn't include each
other on backing vocals for their individual tracks. They may not have
always wanted their musical contributions but there was no reason why
they couldn't have sung on each other's tracks: that way, they
would've been a vocal group more than a band.