Want to know how to REALLY make God laugh???
julia
girl who lost her mom at 23 for her 33rd birthday???? A letter describing her
father's impending death, of course!!! Obvious isn't it??? Somebody tell me
the meaning of life QUICK!!!! Nothing too involved or confusing please... my
brain won't work that way today. Absolute truths??? Forests of
consciousness??? A really great sunset (go west young man, blah blah blah)???
Do tell. Any thoughts much appreciated.
Looking around the apartment for my coping mechanisms...
Leonard
Please find me.
I am almost 33.
Something like that.
~ julia
"There are no bad words... ever." ~ Oscar Wilde & Leonard
Michael
"julia" <juli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020107184819...@mb-mm.aol.com...
> Tell blasphemous jokes about him!!!!! Here's another one. What do you
give a
> girl who lost her mom at 23 for her 33rd birthday???? A letter describing
her
> father's impending death, of course!!! Obvious isn't it???
I am terribly sad to hear that your Dad is now so ill, Julia. You have had
no time to get over your Mum's death, (if one ever can). It's a miserable,
joke-playing Life sometimes. Like all your friends, I suspect, I have no
secrets for you just comfort and prescence whenever you need it.
Mike
julia
>secrets for you just comfort and prescence whenever you need it.
Thank you Michael for the friendship and the kind words!!
Sorry to the group for my self-indulgent post. Seemed like a good idea at the
time. Hurting... not thinking terribly rationally. Please forgive.
Michael
> Sorry to the group for my self-indulgent post. Seemed like a good idea at
the
> time. Hurting... not thinking terribly rationally. Please forgive.
The very best of this group is when someone is hurting. We have seen through
dangerously ill twin babies and many sick relatives of regulars . Whatever
happens with your Dad you must always feel able to look for friendship here.
No need to apologise ever. I never do!
Mike
Jim Rotonda
You'll be in my thoughts and prayers.
Jim
Sue Winterbottom
Hallo there Julia,
Oh, it's hard isn't it sometimes. I can feel the urgency of your plea -
believe me, I can. And it does make me feel like opening up to you. And
more - I wrote more but there seems little point in sending it now,
because though it hurts me to think this way I know we can never really
be friends. I can't change my mind about this - it's all instinct, I'm
sure, but I rarely do change my mind about someone. I'm not one of
those who is constantly rearranging their mental furniture. It was that
first letter you wrote to the group, where you said something about what
a bright intellectual bunch we sounded. That word!! You say there are no
bad words, but that one does always make my flesh creep. Because, to
tell you the absolute truth I'm not one and I've never liked them. And
when it comes down to men, which it usually does - give me the man of
action any time. Footballers, golfers, hewers of wood, drawers of water.
So no, I'm not the person to help you with your dilemma (whatever it may
be). And Leonard? Well - ha ha - he doesn't even have the temperament to
lend a helping hand. At least that's what he says. But..., since he also
tells us he lies and cheats, who knows really...?
So no help from me I'm afraid; but I doubt you will be on your own for
long. 33? That's no age at all.
> Looking around the apartment for my coping mechanisms...
You have an apartment - where would that be exactly...? Sorry! - you
will by now have withdrawn that outstretched hand I suppose. You will be
thinking I'm wanting it all ways: to be and not be the succour you were
hoping for here (there, in your apartment... wherever). My thinking is
getting cloudy... everything is cloudy when you come to look at it.
OK, that's almost it. I hope you get some better responses than this.
You probably deserve them. Fine then, absolutely,
Sue
Constance Kuriyama
This isn't intended to be advice, just a recollection.
My father died when I was 20, but it was a few years coming.
During that few years, I got to know him much better than
I had before, and valued the time I spent with him more.
Almost all situations, even the saddest ones, have their
compensations.
Connie K.
--
"Our century is inconceivable without its . . . inconclusive mob of isms."
Michael
"Sue Winterbottom" <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a1f2qb$kh3$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
Which word Sue? "Intellectual" or one of the two you have misquoted by
accident, turning the admiring "diverse intellectual crowd" into the
lightweight "bright intellectual bunch".
On the presumption that your objection is not to one of your own misquotes,
I am a little curious as to your difficulties with "intellectual".
. Because, to
> tell you the absolute truth I'm not one and I've never liked them. And
> when it comes down to men, which it usually does - give me the man of
> action any time. Footballers, golfers, hewers of wood, drawers of water.
> So no, I'm not the person to help you with your dilemma (whatever it may
> be).
I have had to work a little bit to find an interpretation of your comment in
brackets which is less hurtful than the apparent discounting of Julia's
troubles. If a person tells you that they have lost one parent, and have
just received news that the other parent is dying, the "dilemma, whatever it
may be" may just be the further loss.Without being an intellectual, what do
you think?
Anyway, I came up with the slightly improved explanation that you were
"merely" reassuring a person suffering distress that you will never, in
*any* circumstances, be able to help her.
And Leonard? Well - ha ha - he doesn't even have the temperament to
> lend a helping hand. At least that's what he says. But..., since he also
> tells us he lies and cheats, who knows really...?
>
> So no help from me I'm afraid; but I doubt you will be on your own for
> long. 33? That's no age at all.
>
> > Looking around the apartment for my coping mechanisms...
>
> You have an apartment - where would that be exactly...?
What's the ploy here?
Sorry! - you
> will by now have withdrawn that outstretched hand I suppose. You will be
> thinking I'm wanting it all ways: to be and not be the succour you were
> hoping for here (there, in your apartment... wherever). My thinking is
> getting cloudy... everything is cloudy when you come to look at it.
>
> OK, that's almost it. I hope you get some better responses than this.
She can't fail to really.
> You probably deserve them.
She certainly does.
Michael
There are times to play and there are other times as well.
Jack Lazariuk
<s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>be). And Leonard? Well - ha ha - he doesn't even have the temperament to
>lend a helping hand. At least that's what he says. But..., since he also
>tells us he lies and cheats, who knows really...?
I once shared an apartment with a lady and sat with her while she
cried and told me what a mean heartless bastard Leonard Cohen was. She
had just returned from spending some time with him.
At the time in my mind I held him to blame but over the years I saw
the event as the unfolding of her learning, in what is often a very
painful way, that the beauty that she was longing for was the her that
was doing the longing. I've since come to consider Leonard in a
different light.
Jack
"There is no opportunity so great as that afforded by hurt"
Buckminster Fuller
Jack Lazariuk
<micke...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>I have had to work a little bit to find an interpretation of your comment in
>brackets which is less hurtful than the apparent discounting of Julia's
>troubles. If a person tells you that they have lost one parent, and have
>just received news that the other parent is dying, the "dilemma, whatever it
>may be" may just be the further loss.Without being an intellectual, what do
>you think?
There was nothing in what Sue wrote that seemed intent on causing hurt
Julia. Her behaviour seemed to me like a beautiful manifistation of
what we witness so often in women in that she immediately felt your
hurt and wanted to rush to your side to bring you comfort.
She is an honest woman and stopped that movement with the honest
considerations of her limits that her experience has made her aware of
and she maintained her distance.
From that wonderful combination of compassion guided by honesty
usually flows wisdom. No one knows the secrets of your heart and only
you will know if it was wisdom that opened for consideration that what
you may have to deal with is something other than the death of your
father.
That is not a hurtful or outrageous statement and you would not have
to go far to find scores of people who had experience teach them that
it was not the death of their parents that caused them as much sadness
as the issues it had left unresolved. The love that was left
unexpressed.
This is all private business of yours and I would have kept silent if
it was not being suggested to you that someone who you may be able to
gain strength from was out to hurt you.
Jack
claire
Jack Lazariuk wrote:
This is true about the woman longing, as long as there's someone to see this
beauty, or at least an imaginary universal eye like the universal eye of art
through which it is made significant. Which is why Nancy in that song is one
of the true saints, since she invokes so perfectly the universal eye of art.
Suazanne Fairish (at the same address as Claire though not Claire).
claire
Jack Lazariuk wrote:
This is true about the woman longing, as long as there's someone to see this
beauty, or at least some imaginary universal eye like the universal eye of
art through which her suffering is made significant. And in this way Nancy in
that song is one of the true saints since she invokes so perfectly the
universal eye of art.
Suzanne Fairish ( not Claire )
bill van dyk
to us that life remains a veil of tears. I hope you find some comfort in our
companionship and support.
Bill.
KZ2
I'm not sure if this will be of any help but it is something I do when
situations/thoughts/events are more than I think I can take.....it is a guided
meditation...
Breathing in I calm my body
breathing out I smile
(I know smiling is hard...but sometimes the physical act will preceed the
emotional reality)
Dwelling in the present moment,
I know this is a wonderful moment . (in fact it is the only true moment we
have...the past is but cobwebs of neurons firing and the future projections of
our mind)
Breathing in i know i am breathing in
Breathing out, I know as the in breath goes deep, the out breath grows slow.
Breathing in makes me calm.
Breathing out brings me ease
With the in breath I smile
With the out breath I release
Breathing in there is only the present moment
Breathing out it is a wonderful moment
In, Out
Deep, slow
Calm, Ease
Smile, Release
Present Moment, Wonderful moment
Karen
Jack Lazariuk
<cla...@ferialc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>This is true about the woman longing, as long as there's someone to see this
>beauty, or at least an imaginary universal eye like the universal eye of art
>through which it is made significant. Which is why Nancy in that song is one
>of the true saints, since she invokes so perfectly the universal eye of art.
>
>Suazanne Fairish (at the same address as Claire though not Claire).
Yes thanks Suazanne for mentioning that and bringing home the point
that the song also brings home: the many ways that we fail her.
Jack
José Tomás Domínguez
"Jack Lazariuk" <Jack_L...@excite.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:3c3b40a2...@news.sk.sympatico.ca...
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:15:01 -0000, "Sue Winterbottom"
> <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >be). And Leonard? Well - ha ha - he doesn't even have the temperament to
> >lend a helping hand. At least that's what he says. But..., since he also
> >tells us he lies and cheats, who knows really...?
>
Julia.
I am sure too that Sue wasn't trying to hurt Julia. She even left an open
door for hope.
I know Sue is reading BL and well if I have to reduce that novel to a phrase
it would
be "the story of a man who fails to live 'cause his cowardness is stronger
than his desires."
Or at least I remember that cowardness as the most attractive of BL
surrounded as I was
by militar marchs and words beginning with Capitals. So the vision of Sue is
very accurate.
Michael has now before the second part of getting angry, that is, getting
unangry.
Pp.
Oh I preffer too men of action (and even more if they cultivate their bodies
as the types
mentioned by Sue...) Problem is they don't settle or stay enough.
julia
>> those who is constantly rearranging their mental furniture.
Sue,
I am one of those girls who is frequently if not constantly rearranging my
mental furniture. I so hate the cobwebs from clutter and stagnation. But,
actually I'm writing this to thank you for allowing me to feel something today
other than this haze of pain. Not going to describe the emotions your words
elicited from me. Suffice it to say I am vexed and perplexed.
I want to thank Michael for his kind words and for so valiantly coming to my
rescue. I want to thank all the others for their tender thoughts as well...
both in postings and in e-mails.
And one thing I can't get past. What's with the intrigue over my living in an
apartment, Sue?? Domicile envy?? Latent stalking fantasies?? Wrangling for
an invitation to tea?? Though... a hint... we don't do tea so much as coffee
in this part of the world.
And so I leave you with this. Another thank you for this little diversion from
my grief.
..."when skies are hanged and oceans drowned the single secret will still be
man..." ~~ e.e. cummings
Sue Winterbottom
> > first letter you wrote to the group, where you said something about
what
> > a bright intellectual bunch we sounded. That word!! You say there
are no
> > bad words, but that one does always make my flesh creep
>
>
>
>
> Which word Sue? "Intellectual" or one of the two you have misquoted by
> accident, turning the admiring "diverse intellectual crowd" into the
> lightweight "bright intellectual bunch".
misquoted yes, because I knew it was along those lines and scarcely
worth checking. They are both glib, pseudy phrases and I simply
substituted one such for another. I am surprised, actually, that you can
find anything to prefer in the one julia used - where is the superiority
of the one over the other? I simply don't see it. Bunch vs. crowd? -
it's simply a matter of fashion, age, degree of trendiness and while I
grant you diverse and bright don't mean the same (OK, sorry, factual
error here... salaaam etc.) "diverse", "diversity" & so on are SUCH
over-used words at the moment that they have just become totally
meaningless, yawn-making concepts that really ANY other mildly toadying
word would have done just as well.
>
> On the presumption that your objection is not to one of your own
misquotes,
no - intellectual was the word; perhaps I should have spelled that out
for you.
> I am a little curious as to your difficulties with "intellectual".
I find the word offensive. Largely because it gets bandied about a lot
by people who (I suspect) have no clear idea of what it means. Do you
know what it means Michael? If so, perhaps you would care to tell us.
Ha!
>
>
>
> Sorry! - you
> > will by now have withdrawn that outstretched hand I suppose. You
will be
> > thinking I'm wanting it all ways: to be and not be the succour you
were
> > hoping for here (there, in your apartment... wherever). My thinking
is
> > getting cloudy... everything is cloudy when you come to look at it.
> >
> > OK, that's almost it. I hope you get some better responses than
this.
>
>
> She can't fail to really.
I fail to see any.
>
>
>
> > You probably deserve them.
>
>
> She certainly does.
That is merely your opinion. To which you are entitled of course (as I
am also entitled to suspect your motives in defending her so
strenuously). Or anybody else for that matter.
>
>
>
>
> Michael
>
> There are times to play and there are other times as well.
>
This sounds like something from "Jackanory - the Dark Side"
Sue
Sue Winterbottom
[SW]
> > So no, I'm not the person to help you with your dilemma (whatever it
may
> > be).
>
[MW]
>
> I have had to work a little bit to find an interpretation of your
comment in
> brackets which is less hurtful than the apparent discounting of
Julia's
> troubles. If a person tells you that they have lost one parent, and
have
> just received news that the other parent is dying, the "dilemma,
whatever it
> may be" may just be the further loss.
Well not really - if you read her letter properly. Julia was asking for
help with the meaning of life. I quote:
"??? Somebody tell me
the meaning of life QUICK!!!! Nothing too involved or confusing
please... my
brain won't work that way today. Absolute truths??? Forests of
consciousness??? A really great sunset (go west young man, blah blah
blah)???
Do tell."
That is what she was asking, that appeared to be the dilemma and it was
THAT which I was regretting, finally, being unable to help her with. As
Jack, at least, appears to have realised. My interjecting the topic of
male/female relations (into the consideration of this qua dilemma) was
only the result of associations recently made (and consequently on my
mind as such) in the "Meaning of Life" thread which I would have
supposed you might have carefully read. And I suppose you might have if
you had not been so busy merely skim-reading everything else in order
not to disrupt your heavily football-laden schedule, taking the dog for
a walk, posing for photographers and so on. Some of us here concentrate
on the *serious* business of reading what others write and composing
meaningful replies thereto. While it seems to me that you, Michael,
merely crack jokes and insult people. That is how it seems to me. But
each to their own.
Sue
Sue Winterbottom
[SW]
> > So no, I'm not the person to help you with your dilemma (whatever it
may
> > be).
>
[MW]
>
> I have had to work a little bit to find an interpretation of your
comment in
> brackets which is less hurtful than the apparent discounting of
Julia's
> troubles. If a person tells you that they have lost one parent, and
have
> just received news that the other parent is dying, the "dilemma,
whatever it
> may be" may just be the further loss.
Well not really - if you read her letter properly. Julia was asking for
help with the meaning of life. I quote:
"??? Somebody tell me
the meaning of life QUICK!!!! Nothing too involved or confusing
please... my
brain won't work that way today. Absolute truths??? Forests of
consciousness??? A really great sunset (go west young man, blah blah
blah)???
Do tell."
That is what she was asking, that appeared to be the dilemma and it was
gleek_house
Julia, I'm so sorry. I send good thoughts and wishes your way.
Elizabeth
Paul Galvin
Michael <micke...@btinternet.com> wrote in message ..
> > Sorry to the group for my self-indulgent post. Seemed like a good idea
at
> the
> > time. Hurting... not thinking terribly rationally. Please forgive.
>
>
> The very best of this group is when someone is hurting. We have seen
through
> dangerously ill twin babies and many sick relatives of regulars .
Whatever
> happens with your Dad you must always feel able to look for friendship
here.
> No need to apologise ever. I never do!
>
> Mike
>
>
Dear Julia,
I feel priveleged to be part of a group that you would reach out to when you
are hurting. You know Mike is right, the very best of this group is when
someone is hurting, and we have seen "miracles" occur. We all have our own
tragedies to tell. My own involve the death of my father and then my sister
within a couple of months of each other. I'm afraid that you never 'get over
it'. The best that time can offer is that you may get used to it. My
thoughts and prayers are with you and also my heartfelt thanks. You have
reminded me how wonderful my father and sister were, and also reminded me
how lucky I am to be surrounded by so much love in my own life.
--
Bless you Julia,
Paul.
Jack Lazariuk
>And so I leave you with this. Another thank you for this little diversion from
>my grief.
I don't think it was Sue's intention to divert you from your grief.
One of the songs from Leonard's new album "Love Itself" was dedicated
to a man whose main work was a book dealing with the grief of losing a
father. It seems that his grief was a very important door that opened
for him.
I think it might be because of what occured in the writing of that
book that Leonard dedicated that song to him.
The first chapter of the book can be seen at
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/w/wieseltier-kaddish.html
The book is called Kaddish.
Jack
Sue Winterbottom
Michael,
We hear you saying...
Wondering if even the helfi welfi Dr. Melfi has what it takes to repeat
THAT
story back to you?? Wondering how things are going for you in the
asyl...
err... at the "resort-spa"?? Still chatting up the garden gnomes?? Are
they
still chatting back?? And no... that's not Dr. Death at the door. It's
just
geoffrey in his bathrobe come to bring you another hot water bottle.
Accept it
for what it is...
~ julia
and this is what you wrote on 7 Jan (23.48 my time)
Want to know how to REALLY make God laugh???
Tell blasphemous jokes about him!!!!! Here's another one. What do you
give a
girl who lost her mom at 23 for her 33rd birthday???? A letter
describing her
father's impending death, of course!!! Obvious isn't it??? Somebody
tell me
the meaning of life QUICK!!!! Nothing too involved or confusing
please... my
brain won't work that way today. Absolute truths??? Forests of
consciousness??? A really great sunset (go west young man, blah blah
blah)???
Do tell. Any thoughts much appreciated.
Looking around the apartment for my coping mechanisms...
Leonard
Please find me.
I am almost 33.
Something like that.
~ julia
So, presumably, sometime in the course of that evening you had a
"letter" informing you of the impending death of your father? Do I have
that right? Which turned you from the feisty (not to say hair-brained)
fun-lover you were to the angst-laden doom-merchant we now see. Is that
also right? And it was a *letter* was it?? Not an email or telephone
call?? It seems strange to me that postal deliveries in your part of the
world take place in the latish evening, but if you say they do then of
course I must accept that they do. And you wonder why I take your
scribblings less than seriously do you? I rest my case.
Sue
julia <juli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020108203820...@mb-bk.aol.com...
BigAl
>
> So, presumably, sometime in the course of that evening you had a
> "letter" informing you of the impending death of your father? Do I have
> that right? Which turned you from the feisty (not to say hair-brained)
> fun-lover you were to the angst-laden doom-merchant we now see. Is that
> also right? And it was a *letter* was it?? Not an email or telephone
> call?? It seems strange to me that postal deliveries in your part of the
> world take place in the latish evening, but if you say they do then of
> course I must accept that they do. And you wonder why I take your
> scribblings less than seriously do you? I rest my case.
>
> Sue
Sue
I have to say that I think you're rather out of order here.
Firstly: there is absolutely nothing to say that Julia posted immediately
upon receipt of a letter (or 'phone call, or e-mail or whatever); in fact I
would be extremely surprised if she, or anyone for that matter, would do so.
Would *you* rush into print under such circumstances? I rather doubt it.
Secondly: given the subject matter I think it is definitely one of those
situations whereby if you can't say something helpful, or supportive or just
plain "I'm sorry" then it's best to be remain silent. It would appear that
yourself and Jack read Julia's post somewhat differently than the rest (or
at least those that have replied) but I would have thought the *real*
meaning was soon apparent. To continue in the manner that you have done
saddens me; I have always thought you were kind if somewhat abrasive at
times and I've enjoyed pretty much all of what you have posted. But this.
Most certainly not.
My immediate reaction to your original post was to be reminded of two lines
from the current Walkabouts album:
"Honesty ...... is violence
that you took too far"
To Julia.
I hadn't made any response so far simply because I couldn't think of
anything of any real value to say. Lots of truisms, clichés etc. of course,
most of which are accurate but of little value in diminishing, or at least
helping you to understand, your pain. I can say I am thinking of you, your
father and all the others that are/will be affected.
BigAl
Sue Winterbottom
>
> "Honesty ...... is violence
> that you took too far"
>
> To Julia.
Or not far enough. What I would really like to do to julia is get her up
against a wall somewhere and show her what pain really feels like. What
it feels like to me (which of course is all that I know). But from
seeing it in me she might, just might, appreciate it (and maybe other
things) as her own.... in a new sense. I don't really expect you to
understand this Al.
Sue
Sue Winterbottom
Walkabouts quote:
"Honesty ...... is violence
that you took too far"
(but forgot to mention). That Joan Baez song I am
always quoting (Love song to a stranger) has these rather
feeble lines in it:
"you're mainly a mystery
with violins filling in space"
Well, until I saw the words written down I always heard that as
"violence filling in space" and do you know Al, I rather liked that
version because, at the very least, it made me wonder...... whereas
violins - well, chocolate box or what??
Oh, another good mishearing too - did you ever stop to wonder, just for
a moment, about:
"shekels made of snow"
??
Sue
Sue Winterbottom
>
> > I once shared an apartment with a lady and sat with her while she
> > cried and told me what a mean heartless bastard Leonard Cohen was.
She
> > had just returned from spending some time with him.
> > At the time in my mind I held him to blame but over the years I saw
> > the event as the unfolding of her learning, in what is often a very
> > painful way, that the beauty that she was longing for was the her
that
> > was doing the longing. I've since come to consider Leonard in a
> > different light.
> >
> > Jack
> >
> > "There is no opportunity so great as that afforded by hurt"
> > Buckminster Fuller
>
claire <cla...@ferialc.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> This is true about the woman longing, as long as there's someone to
see this
> beauty, or at least an imaginary universal eye like the universal eye
of art
> through which it is made significant. Which is why Nancy in that song
is one
> of the true saints, since she invokes so perfectly the universal eye
of art.
>
> Suazanne Fairish (at the same address as Claire though not Claire).
>
Jack Lazariuk <Jack_L...@excite.com> wrote:
Yes thanks Suazanne for mentioning that and bringing home the point
that the song also brings home: the many ways that we fail her.
Jack
then KZ2 wrote:
Paul Simon wrote:
It's a still life water color,
Of a now late afternoon,
As the sun shines through the curtained lace
And shadows wash the room.
And we sit and drink our coffee
Couched in our indifference,
Like shells upon the shore
You can hear the ocean roar
In The Dangling Conversation
And the superficial sighs,
The borders of our lives.
And you read your Emily Dickinson,
And I my Robert Frost,
And we note our place with bookmarkers
That measure what we've lost.
Like a poem poorly written
We are verses out of rhythm,
Couplets out of rhyme,
In syncopated time
And The Dangling Conversation
And the superficial sighs,
Are the borders of our lives.
Yes, we speak the things that matter,
With words that must be said,
"Can analysis be worthwhile?"
"Is the theater really dead?"
And how the room is softly faded
And I only kiss your shadow,
I cannot feel your hand,
You're a stranger now unto me
Lost in The Dangling Conversation
And the superficial sighs,
In the borders of our lives.
Which goes to show that a picture is worth a 1000 words. But IF I
believe that to be true THEN I must also be able to demonstrate it
pictorially ---- something like thei--is?
*********
* *
* _O_ * > 1000(cat)
* Ť * =
* | | *
*********
julia
Actually Jack,
That was the nicest possible explanation I could come up with. Thank you for
the information about the book Kaddish. It reminded me of a sweet, sad, and
touching story about Leonard. I'm certain you've heard it. When he was a boy
and his dad was still alive, he began to recite the Kaddish at the dinner
table. His father said, "Let him finish. He'll be saying it soon enough,
anyway."
julia
>"letter" informing you of the impending death of your father? Do I have
>that right?
What are you, Sue?
A detective?? Biting my tongue to refrain from saying some perfectly
well-deserved hurtful things to you. Yes, Sue, I received the horrible news in
a letter. A letter inside my birthday card in fact. Sorry if that was
unclear. And yes... you'll have to forgive me... I committed the sin of
letting the mail sit in the box until waaaaay into the evening. Not certain
what possible difference any of this makes to you. Didn't realize I had become
a doom-merchant. I will put on my dancing shoes and entertain you with songs
and giggles another night. Taking a break now. The stage is dark tonight.
julia
>
>I hadn't made any response so far simply because I couldn't think of
>anything of any real value to say. Lots of truisms, clichés etc. of course,
>most of which are accurate but of little value in diminishing, or at least
>helping you to understand, your pain. I can say I am thinking of you, your
>father and all the others that are/will be affected.
>
>BigAl
>
Dear Big Al,
Thank you, thank you for your sweetness! To you and everyone else who has
e-mailed me privately (you know who you are) I want to say that you have made
me feel most welcome, cared-for, and warm inside! A beautiful gift to me from
this group that I have admired right from the very beginning.
Thanks and thanks again!
julia
>against a wall somewhere and show her what pain really feels like.
Sue,
All I can say here is... how dare you presume to know what I know of pain? You
don't know. You DON'T know. And you will never know. But of course I do
strongly believe that we learn from our pain. And I believe there is a reason
for every thing we must live through. Unfortunately we can only appreciate the
lessons and reasons from some future position and perspective. But I trust all
will be made clear... one day.
Jim Rotonda
"Sue Winterbottom" <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote
>
> What I would really like to do to julia is get her up
> against a wall somewhere and show her what pain really feels like. What
> it feels like to me...
What is it Sue.
What are you not saying.
Tell us; without being cryptic, without being a smart-ass, without being
tough.
Just tell us.
I wouldn't ask if I didn't care.
Jim
~greg
"Jim Rotonda" <jamesr...@home.com> wrote in message news:aZ7%7.330474$ez.47...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com...
ditto.
~greg
(except tough is ok)
Bobbie Chalou
"gleek_house" <gleek...@cheerful.com> wrote in message
news:6135d8dc.02010...@posting.google.com...
I'm just reading all of this for the first time, Julia. Please know that you
are in my thoughts, and your dad, too. I know how very special a
father/daughter relationship can be, and I just want you to know how sorry I
am to hear of his illness. Tomorrow morning before I go to my office, I'm
going to call my dad. Thank you for reminding me of how transient life is
sometimes. Know that you can call on me, and in the meantime I'll be in
touch with you via email.
Love,
Bobbie
Fiona Harrington
> Or not far enough. What I would really like to do to julia is get her up
> against a wall somewhere and show her what pain really feels like. What
> it feels like to me (which of course is all that I know). But from
> seeing it in me she might, just might, appreciate it (and maybe other
> things) as her own.... in a new sense. I don't really expect you to
> understand this Al.
>
> Sue
There's absolutely no need for you to do this Sue. Julia as anyone would,
knows perfectly well what her pain feels like to her and I don't see how
adding someone else's to it can possibly help, at this early stage at least.
If you had said "what I would really like to do *for* Julia" rather than
*to* her then perhaps that particular kind of tough love, or whatever it is,
might have sounded less brutal. We can share people's emotions to a large
extent but ultimately each person is alone in the way they feel, that's
especially true in the case of grief, depression etc. the so called negative
emotions. As it is Julia is already thinking about the possiblity of that
door eventually opening to her even as one has just slammed shut in her face
and of appreciating things in new sense, she's said as much.Sometimes one
needs to be cruel to be kind, it can be the most helpful thing one can do
for someone else, but in the immediate aftermath of shock and the inrush of
grief I doubt it is of any use at all and probably quite the opposite,
bewildering at best I'd say.
Sometimes as they say time heals, or helps one to adjust to a situation and
sometimes it's of no use whatsoever, if that's been the case with you then
I'm sorry.
Fiona.
Judith V. Braun
don´t let me waste your time by introducing myself other than that I have a
profound idea of what you might be going through right now. And that I´m
competent to vouch for the group you reached out for in your breathless
pain.
I´ve been walking these floors myself, stumbling, falling, crawling, found
myself picked up again, dusted off gently, hugged tightly and never ever
abandoned once for but single hour, whenever I needed companions to connect
with me in prayer and thought.
It is true that possibly all that can be acchieved from over here is, to
lend you tireless companionship through an unimaginably deep period in your
life, which will be filled to the brim with pain but also a never before
experienced receptivity to what makes life sweet - between your precious Dad
and you, between whoever capable of breathing warmth and you two...
But it is as well true, that miracles can happen.
Happened before.
And will be happening again.
Expecially in here we´ve been so blessed to witness several of them, even
though - or possibly just because - our prayers and vibrations never dared
to ask for more than for to have happen whatever inevitable in a "copeable
with" way.
The magic of this tousled (but nonetheless matchlessly powerful) little army
is, that once need be we braid our poverty into one roaring outcry composed
of prayer and good vibrations.
There are Jews and Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Pagans, Freelancers in
every shade of the Spiritual Rainbow, Theists, Atheists and Agnostics who
send out their hearts and hopes for you and your Dad and herewith add to a
large, cozy blanket being wrapped round you both in your freezing distress.
Julia, as I said before - I´ve been there - over many monthes even - and
this army will not let you down.
Neither will the High Holy One, whose ways are too far beyond our conception
to dare judge upon them.
Neither, by the way, will Leonard, who sure neither has the temperament nor
the means to exactly "help", but whose empathy and prayers have been with us
in here often enough.
If I may offer an advise which is sprouted out of own, minced by angst,
experience:
Pick those whose posts and emails invited you to and do keep them/us
notified via an email list, no matter how long and how bumpy your road will
get.
Call a very handpicked bunch or Warriors to the weapons and help them keep
close track of what´s going on.
Allow them to be there for you and your Dad in the thicket of what lies
ahead, to pray for miracle if miracle is possible and to pray for strenght
where strength is what serves you two best. Enable them/us to discern how to
help cushion you a bit against what feels like unbearable and provide
them/us with a chance to kindle sparkling lights even in the darkness that
seems so devouring right now.
I cannot say more, but I also must not say less.
We never met, Julia, but do know that you and your Dad will be in my prayers
until you´ll both have reached a better shore, whatever it might be looking
like.
I´ll close this letter with warmest regards and deepest gratitude to all
those, who´ve earlier been walking me through the hell Julia has entered
now.
You all know who you are.
Much love to the second to none pack round here,
Judith
BigAl
And what makes you think yours is the only pain that matters Sue? And do you
also think that I am so stupid that I can't read and understand the above.
If so, that is extremely arrogant of you.
We all have our ways of dealing with things, all ways are better than all
other ways but only to those people where it works. Fiona put a fairly good
handle on it in her response though I would add a caveat. In a medium like
this that transcends national boundaries and cultures in a moment but also
carries nothing but text and it is extremely easy to misinterpret exactly
what has been written/meant then trying such a method is fraught with
danger. Having been a resident on one of the depression NGs for a long time
(though no more) I know of circumstances that have arisen via posts and mail
that have caused people to be hospitalised by their own actions. It has
never been proven but it has been thought that more than one suicide
occurred.
I've been aware that you *appear* to cope with pain, anger and frustration
by lashing out at others. A case of "I feel like this. You feel some of it."
But of course they can't because that pain etc. is yours and yours alone.
Me, I know what pain is, of course I do, but like yours it can only be *my*
pain. I deal with it differently though. I know what it feels like (to me)
and would never wish anyone else to feel the same so I try, in RL, to take
the pain away from others and into me. I wish I could do this for you as it
is very self evident that you have a lot of pain that needs releasing.
Lashing out at Julia because she could (and wished to) post of her grief
here and (hopefully) gain some relief does no good to anyone.
BigAl
Bobbie Chalou
"BigAl" <bigal...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:7Bh%7.9267$X87.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
You are WONDERFUL BigAl. Truly.
Look for my snail mail to be arriving soon, if it hasn't already.
Big squashy huggles to yer.
Bobbie
Mark Barker
sure hope you aren't like Squidgy,... i.e. post once, then bolt again.
You've been missed Judith. Hang around. Maybe if you stay, a few others
might return to the fold.
Peace,
Mark
"Judith V. Braun" wrote:
>
> Dear Julia,
> don愒 let me waste your time by introducing myself other than that I have a
> profound idea of what you might be going through right now. And that I惴
> competent to vouch for the group you reached out for in your breathless
> pain.
> I扉e been walking these floors myself, stumbling, falling, crawling, found
> myself picked up again, dusted off gently, hugged tightly and never ever
> abandoned once for but single hour, whenever I needed companions to connect
> with me in prayer and thought.
> It is true that possibly all that can be acchieved from over here is, to
> lend you tireless companionship through an unimaginably deep period in your
> life, which will be filled to the brim with pain but also a never before
> experienced receptivity to what makes life sweet - between your precious Dad
> and you, between whoever capable of breathing warmth and you two...
> But it is as well true, that miracles can happen.
> Happened before.
> And will be happening again.
> Expecially in here we扉e been so blessed to witness several of them, even
> though - or possibly just because - our prayers and vibrations never dared
> to ask for more than for to have happen whatever inevitable in a "copeable
> with" way.
> The magic of this tousled (but nonetheless matchlessly powerful) little army
> is, that once need be we braid our poverty into one roaring outcry composed
> of prayer and good vibrations.
> There are Jews and Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Pagans, Freelancers in
> every shade of the Spiritual Rainbow, Theists, Atheists and Agnostics who
> send out their hearts and hopes for you and your Dad and herewith add to a
> large, cozy blanket being wrapped round you both in your freezing distress.
> Julia, as I said before - I扉e been there - over many monthes even - and
> this army will not let you down.
> Neither will the High Holy One, whose ways are too far beyond our conception
> to dare judge upon them.
> Neither, by the way, will Leonard, who sure neither has the temperament nor
> the means to exactly "help", but whose empathy and prayers have been with us
> in here often enough.
> If I may offer an advise which is sprouted out of own, minced by angst,
> experience:
> Pick those whose posts and emails invited you to and do keep them/us
> notified via an email list, no matter how long and how bumpy your road will
> get.
> Call a very handpicked bunch or Warriors to the weapons and help them keep
> close track of what愀 going on.
> Allow them to be there for you and your Dad in the thicket of what lies
> ahead, to pray for miracle if miracle is possible and to pray for strenght
> where strength is what serves you two best. Enable them/us to discern how to
> help cushion you a bit against what feels like unbearable and provide
> them/us with a chance to kindle sparkling lights even in the darkness that
> seems so devouring right now.
> I cannot say more, but I also must not say less.
> We never met, Julia, but do know that you and your Dad will be in my prayers
> until you惻l both have reached a better shore, whatever it might be looking
> like.
> I惻l close this letter with warmest regards and deepest gratitude to all
> those, who扉e earlier been walking me through the hell Julia has entered
Sue Winterbottom
I am so glad to see, from what you wrote last night (my time) in another
thread, that you are recovering from your grief and sense of
pointlessness. You are sounding better all the time and that's good -
perhaps between us (all, in the group,) we are discovering a therapy
that will work for you.
> What's with the intrigue over my living in an
> apartment, Sue?? Domicile envy?? Latent stalking fantasies??
Now that is an interesting subject for me because it's a very fine line,
isn't it, between "stalking" and acceptable behaviour. Is this, for
example, a stalker's song?:
I have often walked down this street before
But the pavement always stayed beneath my feet before
All at once am I several stories high
Knowing I'm on the street where you live
Are there lilac trees in the heart of town?
Can you hear a lark in any other part of town?
Does enchantment pour out of every door?
No, it's just on the street where you live!
And oh! The towering feeling
Just to know somehow you are near
The overpowering feeling
That any second you may suddenly appear!
People stop and stare, they don't bother me
For there's no where else on earth that I would rather be
Let the time go by, I won't care if I
Can be here on the street where you live
A.J.Lerner
I would say not. There are barriers that have to be crossed before an
acceptable romanticism becomes something altogether more sinister. And
where we, as a society, draw those barriers is something that I think
does not get discussed as often as it might. It is frequently assumed
that everybody knows where they are - but that would lead me to ask: how
is everybody supposed to know (if they do not get discussed etc.).
Similarly pedophilia. There was an interesting article recently in a
newspaper here (I forget which one) about Lewis Carroll and his
infatuation with Alice Liddell. The writer thought, and I must say I
agreed with her, that whatever lewd fantasies he might (or indeed might
not) have entertained about this girl he should not be thought badly of
by anyone on those grounds - should be admired in fact for the degree to
which he, apparently, sustained his interest and involvement with her
whilst behaving perfectly properly according to the standards of his
day. And produced some interesting literary work as a by-product.
Another example, to my mind, of knowing where to draw the line.
Often on these occasions - my becoming discursive on a subject - I draw
on examples from my own experience and indeed I can do so here. I was
once infatuated with a man to the extent that I went, late at night, on
my own and prowled around outside his house. Stalking, exactly. It was
deliciously quiet with abundant blossoms on the trees in that magical
suburban street. I entered the front garden and made my way along the
side of the house - only to be met by a high gate. I did in fact shin up
the gate and could see as far as into the back garden where he kept more
interesting stuff. It all looked very alien and forbidding though (the
man was what you would probably term 'an intellectual'). His property
was well tended and well protected against intruders. So I left it at
that - to do more would have seemed like madness (given the fact that he
was something of a gadget freak and even in those far-off days there
could well have been something resembling an alarm system in place).
That gives you an idea perhaps of where I draw boundaries. But somebody
else - or myself on another day, well, who knows really?
Sue
>
> ..."when skies are hanged and oceans drowned the single secret will
still be
> man..." ~~ e.e. cummings
>
I am not familiar with this one but the sea, the ocean, etc. does seem
to be getting a hammering in this ng at the moment (quotation wise). I
am very fond of the sea as, by the way, was *my* father. Do let us know
if you have any better news of yours. I am keeping my fingers crossed.
Miracles do happen you know. Or at least, surprising things that there
really is (seems to be) no good scientific explanation for. Ha! Ha! -
that suddenly made me think of this -
You Sexy Thing
I believe in miracles
Where you from
You sexy thing
I believe in miracles
Since you came along
You sexy thing
Miracles right before my eyes
You sexy thing got me hypnotised
Don't stop what ya' doing
What ya' doing to me
My angel from above lying next to me
How did ya' know that I'd be the one
Been a long time coming only just begun
Doing all the things that makes my heart sing
Keep doing what you're doing you sexy thing
How did ya' know I needed you so badly
How did ya' know I gave my heart gladly
Yesterday I was one of a lonely people
Now you're lying next to me
Making love to me
I believe in miracles
Where you from
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
I believe in miracles
Since you came along
You sexy thing
Only yesterday I was on my own
Just another day later my mind was blown
You sexy thing come into my life
Forever and a day it feels so right
How did ya' know that I'd be the one
Been a long time coming only just begun
Doing all the things that makes my heart sing
Keep doing what you're doing you sexy thing
How did ya' know I needed you so badly
How did ya' know I gave my heart gladly
Yesterday I was one of a lonely people
Now you're lying next to me
Making love to me
I believe in miracles
Where you from
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
I believe in miracles
Since you came along
You sexy thing
Kiss me baby
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
Touch me baby
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
Kiss me baby
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
Touch me baby
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
Kiss me baby
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
Touch me baby
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
Kiss me baby
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
Touch me baby
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
You sexy thing
Hot Chocolate
-next thing is I'll be quoting Status Quo! I do like them by the way.
Oh dear! I now find that since I wrote this, you, Jim ~greg(!!) and
others maybe have chided me somewhat further on my earlier posts to you.
Well I hope this goes some way towards convincing these people that they
have not wasted their time getting involved in our attempts to
understand one another better. Sometimes these things work in roundabout
ways (back to front, front to back, arse over tit or however you look at
it). I'm sure it will all come out in the wash (metaphorically
speaking).
Michael
"Jim Rotonda" <jamesr...@home.com> wrote in message
news:aZ7%7.330474$ez.47...@news1.rdc1.nj.home.com...
>
>
By the Author David Kossof
"This book is for my father, who died long ago. Once, when I was small,
about eight, I was with my father, who was a loving man, in a narrow street
in the East End. A huge labourer suddenly roared down at us that we killed
Jesus. My father asked him why he was so unhappy, and the fist lowered and
the shouting stopped and he began to cry. We took him with us to my aunt for
tea. This book is for my father, who was a loving man."
Jim, thanks to your efforts, and that of other kind people, this scene has
just about been re-enacted in this thread.
Michael
Sue Winterbottom
>
> Breathing in makes me calm.
> Breathing out brings me ease
>
> With the in breath I smile
> With the out breath I release
> Breathing in there is only the present moment
> Breathing out it is a wonderful moment
>
> In, Out
> Deep, slow
> Calm, Ease
> Smile, Release
> Present Moment, Wonderful moment
On a second reading this sounds very much like having a fag.
Sue
Chris
"Michael" <micke...@btinternet.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:a1kil9$io2$1...@knossos.btinternet.com...
> By the Author David Kossof
>
> "This book is for my father, who died long ago. Once, when I was small,
> about eight, I was with my father, who was a loving man, in a narrow
street
> in the East End. A huge labourer suddenly roared down at us that we killed
> Jesus. My father asked him why he was so unhappy, and the fist lowered and
> the shouting stopped and he began to cry. We took him with us to my aunt
for
> tea. This book is for my father, who was a loving man."
>
> Jim, thanks to your efforts, and that of other kind people, this scene has
> just about been re-enacted in this thread.
>
> Michael
I met a man who lost his mind
In some lost place I had to find
Follow me the wise man said
But he walked behind
I ate and ate and ate
I did not miss a plate
How much do these suppers cost
We'll take it out in hate
julia
No, Judith, but your reputation as a warm, sensitive, genuine person precedes
you. Thank you for your most heartfelt, touchingly empathetic words. I feel
truly honored. Other words fail me now.
Thank you again.
Jack Lazariuk
windows and see if they open.
I don't know what is going on in Sue's mind but while she has been
here with us she has never given me any reason to think that she
participates here to fool anyone or to hurt anyone. Has anyone's
experience of her been different? She has hinted even that she thinks
of this as a place of healing.
To the best of her ability she has been straight with us and has
stated clearly that there are aspects of this place that bother her
greatly and that is the amount of pretending that goes on. She says
that it leaves her greatly confused and shared with us recently how it
influenced how she related to someone from her childhood.
Did she leave us because of that? No I think that like all of us a
longing for relation keeps her here sharing with us in the struggle.
What is a more serious affair than that of the heart and it's field of
human relationships? To the extent that we are yearning for genuine
encounter her struggle is ours and we share with her the two main
obstacles to the fullness of human relationships: the inadequacy of
our perception and the invasion of seeming. Who here hasn't had those
two things make them aware of their poverty or had them ignite their
anger?
Sue is suspicious and she tells us she is and she shows it and she has
the courage to not have it freeze her into easy comformity. She rings
the bell that still can ring and we get to slowly start learing what
she is thinking and feeling. Some of her thoughts and feelings might
be nasty- so what?
The room we give Sue to live some of her life here will I think do
more to help Julia than all our kind words of pity.
Every now and then my young son will ask me if there is anything I
want from him and my answer is always the same. There is one thing
that I ask of him and I have to keep asking because in so many ways
everyone else is telling him that it is not something that they would
want. I tell him that I want to know what he is thinking and I try to
make it very very clear that I don't just want to hear the good
thoughts but that I also want to hear the real stinky ones, the ones
that everyone else is telling him he shouldn't have.
I ask him that because I want him to know that having those thought
doesn't make him a bad person and I don't want him to be afraid of
them. If the opportunity is there I would like to be able to help him
deal with them. I'm not sure that is what a father is suppose to do
and if I see that I am wrong I will change. I do it because I think
people need those kind of freedoms.
People are afraid of death and we treat the dying like untouchables
and often when we provide comfort to the grieving it is really
ourselves that we are trying to comfort. The price paid by the person
being comforted for that blanket of comfort is often that there is no
room for feelings and thoughts that might not seem appropiate to the
occasion some of which may be able to rob death of it's victory.
I know of some great triumphs of love that have occured as death
approached and more often than not it involved people gaining the
courage to face some very nasty thoughts and feelings.
People have been telling Julia about what she should expect from the
people of this newsgroup with the enthusiasm of advertizing agents.
When all is said and done our behaviour will tell her more.
In a very intimate way she is being shown how people are treated if
they express themselves here and don't conceal their anger and
confusion. It might happen as it has happened to so many that the
approach of death will unearth in Julia thoughts and feelings that she
will be afraid of and that she will think that others will think her
bad for having them and she will have a pretty good idea of how
worthwhile it would be to express those thoughts and feelings here.
We are showing her how far we would be willing to go to understand and
to help her understand.
There might come a time when Julia is feeling that Sue's struggle with
death and pain and desire to live is just as urgent as hers and she
has all the kinds of thoughts that she thinks that Sue is having and
then how she saw Sue being treated will take on new meaning.
I don't know Julia and so I only have my own experience of how I have
behaved in similar situations to warrant the following statement.
If she is only interested in having some place where she can feel
sorry for herself and have someone to bleed with we are also giving
her a good idea of how we will respond to that.
Judith made the suggestion that she hand pick her army. That will
certainly let her determine the road she chooses to take. It's not
what I would suggest.
I should add that seeing Judith post here felt a bit like having a
part of my own heart returning. I was happy many years ago for her
allowing me to share in the triumph when death came knocking at her
family's door. When the doctors told her daughter that her babies
would die her daughter took the stance that Michael so beautifully
expresses with the line " Tell Dr. Death to fuck off"
Not everyone would be like that. Too often we are just content to let
death have it's way and we comfort each other into it's clutches.
Jack
julia
>
>"This book is for my father, who died long ago. Once, when I was small,
>about eight, I was with my father, who was a loving man, in a narrow street
>in the East End. A huge labourer suddenly roared down at us that we killed
>Jesus. My father asked him why he was so unhappy, and the fist lowered and
>the shouting stopped and he began to cry. We took him with us to my aunt for
>tea. This book is for my father, who was a loving man."
>
>Jim, thanks to your efforts, and that of other kind people, this scene has
>just about been re-enacted in this thread.
>
>Michael
>
Thank you for sharing this, Michael. And thank you for the breathtaking
enormity of your friendship and compassion.
..."I can no other answer make but thanks thanks and ever thanks"...
~ julia
"...such was a poet and shall be and is
-who'll solve the depths of horror to defend
a sunbeam's architecture with his life:
and carve immortal jungles of despair
to hold a mountain's heartbeat in his hand." ~~ e.e.cummings
Neutral
"Chris" <removethis...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:a1kokb$o6l$1...@sun27.hrz.tu-darmstadt.de...
Very few people vote Teachers as their favourite Cohen track ever (enter
Jarkko with latest statistics proving/disproving my unauthorised comment!)
but I put it way up there, (a million above *that* dirge, yes, *that* one,
and damn close to catching his superb Jazz Police) (aaahhh, I'm going to be
sick) (Nurse, QUICK..)
Michael
julia
>have not wasted their time getting involved in our attempts to
>understand one another better
Oh Sue,
I scarcely know what to do with you!! Just when I had about given up... you
surprise me with this enigmatic, playful (if a little bizarre), and at times
nearly profound post! You just *won't* let me pigeon-hole you will you?? You
sly boots. You curious kitten. "You sexy thing." Heyyyy my life has become
now a huge sleep deprivation experiment. Forgive anything less than coherent!
julia
>I did not miss a plate
>How much do these suppers cost
>We'll take it out in hate
But Chris,
You nearly missed the best part:
I spent my hatred every place
on every work on every face
someone gave me wishes
and I wished for an embrace.
julia
>touch with you via email.
>
>Love,
>Bobbie
>
Seeeee Bobbie!!
I just *knew* all those people were right aboutyou!! Thank you for your lovely
words.
Jim Rotonda
There is no shortage of pain out there.
Jim
"Only drowning men can see him"
"Michael" wrote
Sue Winterbottom
Sue
julia <juli...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020110150742...@mb-cn.aol.com...
Bobbie Chalou
> I scarcely know what to do with you!! Just when I had about given up...
you
> surprise me with this enigmatic, playful (if a little bizarre), and at
times
> nearly profound post! You just *won't* let me pigeon-hole you will you??
You
> sly boots. You curious kitten. "You sexy thing." Heyyyy my life has
become
> now a huge sleep deprivation experiment. Forgive anything less than
coherent!
>
>
> ~ julia
What a woman!
B
Bobbie Chalou
> >Know that you can call on me, and in the meantime I'll be in
> >touch with you via email.
> >
> >Love,
> >Bobbie
> >
>
> Seeeee Bobbie!!
> I just *knew* all those people were right aboutyou!! Thank you for your
lovely
> words.
Thank you Julia, but you never did tell me who said them! I have an idea,
though!
Bobbie
Fiona Harrington
> This place is getting like a gas chamber, lets walk over to some
> windows and see if they open.
> I don't know what is going on in Sue's mind but while she has been
> here with us she has never given me any reason to think that she
> participates here to fool anyone or to hurt anyone. Has anyone's
> experience of her been different? She has hinted even that she thinks
> of this as a place of healing.
> To the best of her ability she has been straight with us and has
> stated clearly that there are aspects of this place that bother her
> greatly and that is the amount of pretending that goes on. She says
> that it leaves her greatly confused and shared with us recently how it
> influenced how she related to someone from her childhood.
She has always been staright with us as far as I know and that's a
valuable trait in anyone. There are some aspects of this place that
sometimes bother me too but I usually keep silent about them, that's a
trait I don't value in myself. It's a good survival strategy but it's not
very honourable.
> Did she leave us because of that?
I don't think she has left us.
> Sue is suspicious and she tells us she is and she shows it and she has
> the courage to not have it freeze her into easy comformity. She rings
> the bell that still can ring and we get to slowly start learing what
> she is thinking and feeling. Some of her thoughts and feelings might
> be nasty- so what?
>
> The room we give Sue to live some of her life here will I think do
> more to help Julia than all our kind words of pity.
Agreed. I don't think there's anyone here who would be unwilling to give
Sue room to "live some of her life here." And in any case there's nothing
they could do about it if they were unwilling. The thing is too that
people can only live "some" of their lives here and only a tiny part of
them at that which is probably just as well, but it sometimes can make
people seem one sided. I don't think it's too wise actually to be many
sided, in the sense of living a lot of one's life openly in these kinds of
forums.
> Every now and then my young son will ask me if there is anything I
> want from him and my answer is always the same. There is one thing
> that I ask of him and I have to keep asking because in so many ways
> everyone else is telling him that it is not something that they would
> want. I tell him that I want to know what he is thinking and I try to
> make it very very clear that I don't just want to hear the good
> thoughts but that I also want to hear the real stinky ones, the ones
> that everyone else is telling him he shouldn't have.
I wonder a bit about this. It's good that's you're so open with him at
that he knows that he can be equally open with you, but where does that
leave privacy? There are thoughts, good and bad, that one has that are
not for sharing. There is a difference between guilty repression and
pleasurable privacy. Children in my opinion, I don't have any so maybe
I'm talking through my hat here, are just as entitled to their private
thoughts, dreams and feelings as are adults. So wouldn't it be just as
valuable to him to let him know also that while he may be perfectly
entitled to talk freely with you about what's going on inside his head he
is also entitled to keep things from you, or anybody else? Again here I'm
conscious that we can and probably should only live part of our lives here
so there's no need to answer since it's your child we're speaking of. I
always hated having my thoughts scrutinised as a child, or made to feel
that I had to account for my day-dreams and periods of
incommunicativeness. Maybe it was because I felt there were judgements
being made, you're not going to judge or censor your son so that's the
difference I suppose.
> I ask him that because I want him to know that having those thought
> doesn't make him a bad person and I don't want him to be afraid of
> them. If the opportunity is there I would like to be able to help him
> deal with them. I'm not sure that is what a father is suppose to do
> and if I see that I am wrong I will change. I do it because I think
> people need those kind of freedoms.
Absolutely. Freedom to be open and freedom not to be.
> People are afraid of death and we treat the dying like untouchables
> and often when we provide comfort to the grieving it is really
> ourselves that we are trying to comfort. The price paid by the person
> being comforted for that blanket of comfort is often that there is no
> room for feelings and thoughts that might not seem appropiate to the
> occasion some of which may be able to rob death of it's victory.
That's true too. Our motives in comforting people may be to try and make
them suffer less so we don't have to be exposed to it. I think though that
you can't go too far in the opposite direction either, it's a balance, you
can't not offer whatever comfort you are capable of, that would be
heartless. If the blanket is wound too tightly then release it a little. I
think it's pretty much recognised now that grief over a death or over a
dying person is rarely simple and unmixed, the dying person will very
probably have thoughts "inappropriate to the occasion" too, rage for
example, very few people are capable of being totally accepting of death,
it's terrifying. In extreme old age perhaps, or in the extremity of a
grave illness when one is simply tired and wants to let go. The bereaved
or soon to be bereaved will also have all sorts of confused feelings, not
just simple unadulterated grief.
> I know of some great triumphs of love that have occured as death
> approached and more often than not it involved people gaining the
> courage to face some very nasty thoughts and feelings.
I know of them too but have no personal experience of them.
> People have been telling Julia about what she should expect from the
> people of this newsgroup with the enthusiasm of advertizing agents.
> When all is said and done our behaviour will tell her more.
Very probably. The thing is we can't actually behave in the newsgroup, we
can only tell. Not sure about the "advertizing agents" bit, don't know if
it came across that way to Julia? I think people were genuinely trying to
be kind. Sometimes we do go on a bit it's true, about how wonderful we are
and so on. Still, people usually stay the course with those who need
"blanketing."
> In a very intimate way she is being shown how people are treated if
> they express themselves here and don't conceal their anger and
> confusion. It might happen as it has happened to so many that the
> approach of death will unearth in Julia thoughts and feelings that she
> will be afraid of and that she will think that others will think her
> bad for having them and she will have a pretty good idea of how
> worthwhile it would be to express those thoughts and feelings here.
> We are showing her how far we would be willing to go to understand and
> to help her understand.
As I suggested above some things may need to be concealed, or carefully
couched, sometimes. Usually not though. I would hope that Julia, or Sue,
or anyone else would feel free to express the uncomfortable, to them or
us, thoughts, opinions and fears that they may have. This is exactly what
you're doing here Jack and I appreciate the shifting thoughts that reading
your post have given rise to in me. I'm feeling less one-sided all the
time!
> There might come a time when Julia is feeling that Sue's struggle with
> death and pain and desire to live is just as urgent as hers and she
> has all the kinds of thoughts that she thinks that Sue is having and
> then how she saw Sue being treated will take on new meaning.
> I don't know Julia and so I only have my own experience of hw I have
> behaved in similar situations to warrant the following statement.
> If she is only interested in having some place where she can feel
> sorry for herself and have someone to bleed with we are also giving
> her a good idea of how we will respond to that.
I actually don't know how we will respond. The thing is we are not a
therapy group and it would be dangerous and unfair to give someone the
idea that we are, that we know how to deal with particular problems or
advise them how to go on in their lives. We discuss all sorts of thing and
sometimes, inevitabaly, people get to points in their lives that everyone
sooner or later has to face, in this case the probability of the death of
a parent, many of us have been there and we can offer a little insight and
some comfort, that's all. It may be enough or it may not.I think what
Julia is going through is a whole lot more than merely "feeling sorry for
herself" but then again if bad things happen to people then I think they
are perfectly entitled to feel quite unapologetically, very sorry for
themselves and very angry. You may get into such a deep trough of
sorriness that you've got to be yanked out it's true, but feeling sorry or
angry for oneself in the midst of sorrow or trauma has got to be allowable
I think. People's sorrow is rarely unmixed as you said yourself and nobody
can be noble all the time.
> I should add that seeing Judith post here felt a bit like having a
> part of my own heart returning. I was happy many years ago for her
> allowing me to share in the triumph when death came knocking at her
> family's door. When the doctors told her daughter that her babies
> would die her daughter took the stance that Michael so beautifully
> expresses with the line " Tell Dr. Death to fuck off"
> Not everyone would be like that. Too often we are just content to let
> death have it's way and we comfort each other into it's clutches.
Beautifully put Jack. I remember that time well, Dr. Death fucked off good
and proper that time, maybe he will again. Nonetheless there is a time to
live and a time to die we've got to accept that, not without arguement
though!I'm glad to see Judith back too.
Fiona.
Sue Winterbottom
news:7Bh%7.9267$X87.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
message
> news:a1if50$d7e$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > BigAl wrote:
> > >
> > > "Honesty ...... is violence
> > > that you took too far"
> > >
> > > To Julia.
> >
> > Or not far enough. What I would really like to do to julia is get
her up
> > against a wall somewhere and show her what pain really feels like.
What
> > it feels like to me (which of course is all that I know). But from
> > seeing it in me she might, just might, appreciate it (and maybe
other
> > things) as her own.... in a new sense. I don't really expect you to
> > understand this Al.
> >
> > Sue
>
> And what makes you think yours is the only pain that matters Sue? And
do you
> also think that I am so stupid that I can't read and understand the
above.
> If so, that is extremely arrogant of you.
I don't go out of my way to look humble, if that's what you mean. Unlike
some.
> We all have our ways of dealing with things, all ways are better than
all
> other ways but only to those people where it works.
Crap.
Fiona put a fairly good
> handle on it in her response though I would add a caveat. In a medium
like
> this that transcends national boundaries and cultures in a moment but
also
> carries nothing but text
Oh - you noticed.
and it is extremely easy to misinterpret exactly
> what has been written/meant then trying such a method is fraught with
> danger. Having been a resident on one of the depression NGs for a long
time
> (though no more)
no - because as you once told me privately, the conversations at
alt.Brits.wearesodepressed (or whatever) were "RATHER CHILDISH", so who
was being arrogant there, eh?
>I know of circumstances that have arisen
via posts and mail
> that have caused people to be hospitalised by their own actions. It
has
> never been proven but it has been thought that more than one suicide
> occurred.
I'm really not too interested in this Al
>
> I've been aware that you *appear* to cope with pain, anger and
frustration
> by lashing out at others. A case of "I feel like this. You feel some
of it."
Yeah well, it works for me so who are you to knock it etc.
> But of course they can't because that pain etc. is yours and yours
alone.
> Me, I know what pain is, of course I do,
What *you* know Al? What you know is:
the pub
the walk there
the walk back
WATCHING PEOPLE
talking to them (and boring them to death)
boring music that all sounds the same
nit-picking
bits of boring old bikes
thinking you're part of some international jet-set just cos you write a
few boring letters to people you have never met (and who think you are a
total wanker)
girls who give you ***big hugs*** and send you records but don't really
give a shit about you
do you want me
to go on?
but like yours it can only be *my*
> pain. I deal with it differently though. I know what it feels like (to
me)
> and would never wish anyone else to feel the same so I try, in RL, to
take
> the pain away from others and into me.
now this is rich from someone who says he's not arrogant -
who do you think you are here Al - Jesus fucking Christ?
"Come unto me all you are heavy laden etc. and I will give you whatever"
I mean really!!! YOU?? Taking the weight of the world on your
shoulders??
WHAT shoulders?? We've seen the picture Al. Who do you *really* think
you are - Charles Atlas?
I wish I could do this for you as it
> is very self evident that you have a lot of pain that needs releasing.
> Lashing out at Julia because she could (and wished to) post of her
grief
> here and (hopefully) gain some relief does no good to anyone.
>
> BigAl
Grief?? You think she was talking about Grief?? But you DON'T do you -
because you said in the beginning
>And do you
> also think that I am so stupid that I can't read and understand the
above.
This is sexy talk Al. As you well know, and it's not coming your way so
you're feeling a bit miffed. Well OK, BE MIFFED. But waste somebody
elses time with it in future, not mine.
Sue
BigAl
> BigAl <bigal...@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:7Bh%7.9267$X87.1...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> > "Sue Winterbottom" <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in
> message
> > news:a1if50$d7e$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Sue said:
> Yeah well, it works for me so who are you to knock it etc.
Which reads that you don't give a shit for anyone but yourself.
<snip loads of bitter rubbish>
Bye Sue
BigAl
José Tomás Domínguez
"Sue Winterbottom" <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> escribió en el
mensaje news:a1mn2t$c2f$1...@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> WHAT shoulders?? We've seen the picture Al. Who do you *really* think
> you are - Charles Atlas?
Really Sue,
I doubt you have, morally talking of course, right to reproach Big Al
something I'm sure Al regrets at least as much as you seems to despise.
I agree that the dream of every man is to be Charles Atlas, not excluding
me.
It's sad to see that if you scrape people clean a little, you find the same
hunger for power and strength, the same urging demands. As a Spanish
singer said: "They say to you 'Eat shit. Eat it in silence'". Come y calla.
There are for sure more probabilities to find Charles Atlas marauding
Spas than staying in this n.g. And finally you can come to be a bodybuilder
yourself and need not strong people at your command, Charles Atlas
reincarnated, king of the mountain forever...
The Charles Axis Ad and the subsequent dialogs about it between F and
the narrator are the funniest piece of text I've ever read, a real attack to
machism so I'm still perplexed by the convencionality (bully! bully!) of
your
response.
Pp.
Sue Winterbottom
And talk about the time you're all wasting - jeez!
Sue
José Tomás Domínguez <jtom...@mail.idecnet.com> wrote in message
news:a1n4j8$cj1$1...@diana.bcn.ttd.net...
Jack Lazariuk
<Fiona.Ha...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote:
>She has always been staright with us as far as I know and that's a
>valuable trait in anyone. There are some aspects of this place that
>sometimes bother me too but I usually keep silent about them, that's a
>trait I don't value in myself. It's a good survival strategy but it's not
>very honourable.
You are not as silent as you may think. Not everything has to be put
into words and if we are attentive the things that you don't say lets
us know what aspects bother you.
>Agreed. I don't think there's anyone here who would be unwilling to give
>Sue room to "live some of her life here." And in any case there's nothing
>they could do about it if they were unwilling. The thing is too that
>people can only live "some" of their lives here and only a tiny part of
>them at that which is probably just as well, but it sometimes can make
>people seem one sided. I don't think it's too wise actually to be many
>sided, in the sense of living a lot of one's life openly in these kinds of
>forums.
Why not here? Why not anywhere? Recently I stumbled into a situation
that led me to be standing beside another man with our hands on our
hips and both of us willing to try the experiment suggested by another
that we laugh for awhile.
Of what account is that in the great scheme of things that two men are
standing side by side with their hands on their hips laughting for no
reason other than laughing? Still why not do it with all of our
sides? Hearing myself laughing when there seems to be nothing to
laugh about can really put me in touch with myself as a fake and the
more of myself that I put into it the clearer my being a fake became
but you know what Fiona? It was something pretty funny and worth
laughing about and then I was laughing because of something funny for
awhile.
I will never know for sure but I think the fact that I was not the
only one being a fake helped me see myself as one and to see how funny
it was.
When you write that you don't think it's too wise to be many sided
here etc. my immediate thought is that wouldn't it be more worthwhile
exploring just how many sided we can be. We probably all feel that we
don't put enough of ourselves into hardly anything that we do. Is the
advice that you are giving out not really just you giving an excuse to
yourself for being as reserved as you are? I could be wrong but I
sense that you are yearning to be a little less reserved so instead of
your telling us of the wisdom of the limits that are drawn lets break
some of the limits. (In a limited way of course ! )
>I wonder a bit about this. It's good that's you're so open with him at
>that he knows that he can be equally open with you, but where does that
>leave privacy? There are thoughts, good and bad, that one has that are
>not for sharing. There is a difference between guilty repression and
>pleasurable privacy. Children in my opinion, I don't have any so maybe
>I'm talking through my hat here, are just as entitled to their private
>thoughts, dreams and feelings as are adults.
Of course he is entitled to his own private thoughts. That is one
freedom that we should just take even if no one is willing to give it
to us. I pointed out that my asking him was in response to his asking
me what he could do for me. Am I asking too much when I ask him for
his thoughts, even the stinky ones? What is that telling him? I think
it is telling him that they are his thoughts and he has them to give.
It is also telling him that dad thinks they are something of value and
will receive them like someone receiving a gift.
That is the way I would like him to see my request but it doesn't mean
that he will do so. I have to appreciate that there is much in his
enviroment that is telling him a very different story and maybe sadly
even in my own actions. He is getting a small music collections and
one of the recent CD's that he was given was one called "Big Shiny
Tunes Number 6" and the song that I hear him listening to over and
over has the lyrics
" I'm useless
but not for long
the future
is coming on"
Try to imagine what it is like for a father when he sees that
corporate greed has it eye on the heart of his young son. Of course to
them he is useless but see the advantage to them in making him feel
it.
This weekend I added to his music collection with a gift of
"In-A-Gadda-Da-Vita" by Iron Butterfly
That particular song was made socially relevant to him because
apparently Bart Simpson played a trick one week at church by
substituting the week's hymn sheet with a song sheet of
"In-A-Gadda-Da-Vita" and had the whole congregation singing along.
The old woman on the organ had to step a little bit out of the
ordinary.
But back to the matter at hand.
With you too Fiona I think it a gift when you tell us what you are
thinking and feeling. They are yours to give and you have a full right
to your privacy. All your bright cheery thoughts that reflect your
mild mannered ways will be received as a gift but don't think for a
moment that you are not keeping us from something valuable when you
hold back the thought that you have outlawed as inappropiate as
defined by how alive you want to be in the life you are living in this
medium.
It was long but I liked that last line.
>So wouldn't it be just as
>valuable to him to let him know also that while he may be perfectly
>entitled to talk freely with you about what's going on inside his head he
>is also entitled to keep things from you, or anybody else? Again here I'm
>conscious that we can and probably should only live part of our lives here
>so there's no need to answer since it's your child we're speaking of. I
>always hated having my thoughts scrutinised as a child, or made to feel
>that I had to account for my day-dreams and periods of
>incommunicativeness. Maybe it was because I felt there were judgements
>being made, you're not going to judge or censor your son so that's the
>difference I suppose.
Of course I will not hide the fact that the stinky thoughts are stinky
thoughts and there will be judgement involved. Isn't that what we
would all like ? -to sit in a well aired room with people we love and
care for and take a look at all our thoughts and feelings and work out
which ones to keep and which ones we should let fly out the window.
Instead what we do is usually tell the person they are stinky if they
are the ones bringing forward the stinky thoughts to give us the
opportunity to see why the thoughts are stinky.
Singapore is a squeaky clean city state, which has long barred
spitting and enforced fines for not flushing toilets, is the first
foreign country to put on the show from Canada which is referred to
as a "Grossology" exhibition. The people attending have the
opportunity to play with giant size pimples, try out the smells from
different kind of armpits, see what an asshole smells like etc. The
show is currently running and is an enormous hit.
>That's true too. Our motives in comforting people may be to try and make
>them suffer less so we don't have to be exposed to it. I think though that
>you can't go too far in the opposite direction either, it's a balance, you
>can't not offer whatever comfort you are capable of, that would be
>heartless. If the blanket is wound too tightly then release it a little. I
>think it's pretty much recognised now that grief over a death or over a
>dying person is rarely simple and unmixed, the dying person will very
>probably have thoughts "inappropriate to the occasion" too, rage for
>example, very few people are capable of being totally accepting of death,
>it's terrifying. In extreme old age perhaps, or in the extremity of a
>grave illness when one is simply tired and wants to let go. The bereaved
>or soon to be bereaved will also have all sorts of confused feelings, not
>just simple unadulterated grief.
I understand what you mean about the importance of balance. I admire
the person who gets to their balance through experience that was
unfettered by fear of failure and not just by what has been dictated
to be the balanced approach. As in anything we need a lot of failures
to learn our balance.
>Very probably. The thing is we can't actually behave in the newsgroup, we
>can only tell. Not sure about the "advertizing agents" bit, don't know if
>it came across that way to Julia? I think people were genuinely trying to
>be kind. Sometimes we do go on a bit it's true, about how wonderful we are
>and so on. Still, people usually stay the course with those who need
>"blanketing."
Do they stay the course if it is something else that they need?
>As I suggested above some things may need to be concealed, or carefully
>couched, sometimes. Usually not though. I would hope that Julia, or Sue,
>or anyone else would feel free to express the uncomfortable, to them or
>us, thoughts, opinions and fears that they may have. This is exactly what
>you're doing here Jack and I appreciate the shifting thoughts that reading
>your post have given rise to in me. I'm feeling less one-sided all the
>time!
That is one of the things that we all do for each other.
>I actually don't know how we will respond. The thing is we are not a
>therapy group and it would be dangerous and unfair to give someone the
>idea that we are, that we know how to deal with particular problems or
>advise them how to go on in their lives. We discuss all sorts of thing and
>sometimes, inevitabaly, people get to points in their lives that everyone
>sooner or later has to face, in this case the probability of the death of
>a parent, many of us have been there and we can offer a little insight and
>some comfort, that's all. It may be enough or it may not.I think what
>Julia is going through is a whole lot more than merely "feeling sorry for
>herself" but then again if bad things happen to people then I think they
>are perfectly entitled to feel quite unapologetically, very sorry for
>themselves and very angry. You may get into such a deep trough of
>sorriness that you've got to be yanked out it's true, but feeling sorry or
>angry for oneself in the midst of sorrow or trauma has got to be allowable
>I think. People's sorrow is rarely unmixed as you said yourself and nobody
>can be noble all the time.
I have no problem with people feeling sorry for themselves. Fiona I am
hardly a person who passes himself off as someone who hasn't felt
sorry for himself. If you are alive in this world the chances are
better than not that you have been treated pretty badly in this life.
Sit in a quiet room and place a pair of your shoes in the center of
the room and look at those shoes and consider how much the person who
wears those shoes has been lied to, pushed around, laughed at,
scorned, had rocks thrown at them, cheated on, abused, taken for
granted, enslaved, discouraged and when you get finished with all
these things that were done by those closest to you under the banner
of love go on to consider what was done by those who don't even care
for you.
If someone feels sorry for themselves my advice to them would be to
feel sorry for themselves. Do it here or anywhere else, but for
heaven's sake do it. Do it all the way, yell, scream, cry, throw
things around and don't stop until it all gets out. Don't do it half
way, you have a right to it. Feel it right to the end, if you need
someone to be there with you get someone. You will know when you get
to the end, and there is an end. You will just feel numb.
The problem with people feeling sorry for themselves is not the person
feeling sorry but rather the energy it provides.
If you are ever looking to get yourself a slave find someone who is
feeling sorry for themselves and feed them crumbs of love. Provide
just enough comfort to keep them from gettingto the end of their hurt.
If you want you can keep that going on forever. I have seen life-long
relationships based on that simple exchange. You would have to be
blind to not see that it happens all the time and happens right in
front of our eyes. A person could probably write a book about the
energy of slaves.
I have seen a few heroic stances of the person with heart in my day
but few can equal the stance of the man of ' No Pity'.
>Beautifully put Jack. I remember that time well, Dr. Death fucked off good
>and proper that time, maybe he will again. Nonetheless there is a time to
>live and a time to die we've got to accept that, not without arguement
>though!I'm glad to see Judith back too.
Thanks for the deep amount of thought you gave to your response Fiona.
Jack
" The room is so stuffy
I can hardly breath
Everyones gone except for me and you
and I can't be the last to leave
I'm pledging my time to you
Hoping you'll come through too" Bob Dylan
Jack Lazariuk
Sue said:
>
>> Yeah well, it works for me so who are you to knock it etc.
Then BigAl said:
>Which reads that you don't give a shit for anyone but yourself.
What an interesting argument it is to see one person telling the other
"You don't give a shit for anyone but yourself" and the other saying
"You give a shit for everyone but yourself"
Wouldn't it be funny trying to figure out where in the end the shit
was going to go?
But if it lands on me, I don't want anyone to laugh.
Jack
m.p
----------
In article <3c3f66ab...@news.sk.sympatico.ca>,
Jack_L...@excite.com (Jack Lazariuk) wrote:
> Wouldn't it be funny trying to figure out where in the end the
> shit
> was going to go?
>
> But if it lands on me, I don't want anyone to laugh.
>
> Jack
;) Not even G-d?
Jack Lazariuk
That especially goes for God.
And whoever delivers it, I'm prepared to think of as the asshole.
I was once at a large Greek social where I was a little drunk and
didn't know but one or two people. As part of their fun they had a
little session where they would bring someone from the crowd and teach
them to dance. The fun involved dressing them in some funny ethnic
clothes and making them dance a complicated dance.
I was the one who came on to the stage to be humilated. As it began I
was feeling that it wasn't getting the attention that it deserved and
so I asked them to stop the music and I took the mike and very
seriously told everyone that I was here on the stage trying to do
something and that I would greatly appreciate it if they wouldn't
laugh. It completely got everyone's attention and they laughed
uncontrolably.
Later that evening I was approached by a movie producer who told me
that I could have a future in the entertainment industry if I was ever
interested.
Jack
P.S. I think I occasionally make God laugh.
Sue Winterbottom
I have taken your words very much to heart as I always do. I am feeling
bad today, not just about this but also because I've been re-reading
some of my private letters to you and find that I once wrote:
"But this group does not only need a Spanish Quijote, it
needs a French one, a German one, a Polish one etc. - from all the
countries where Cohen is appreciated and who can show what Cohen (and
his wonderful group) could really learn from them".
Of course I immediately thought, with shame, of what I posted here
yesterday in response to Michele Mari's posting of some Francesco
Guccini lyrics, i.e.:
>GET OUTTA HERE FOREIGNER!!!!!!
Sadly this look like an example of someone, as we say,
"hoist with their own petard".
I wonder if you have come across the expression? I am wondering too, how
I have ended up in the strange predicament of telling fellow Europeans
to piss off when I began so well. Is it through some inherent failing of
my own, or have the fates been conspiring against me? That (as I
remember it) is the question left unresolved in Thomas Hardy's novels,
which Bill was pouring such scorn on recently. I don't think it's quite
as clear cut as he made out. My mother could never take Hardy seriously
by the way (she used to read them when we were studying them at school).
She found the family suicide scene - with a note left saying: "Done
because we are too many" (in Jude the Obscure) hilarious - and still
laughs today whenever it is mentioned.
Peace,
Sue
Tomás Domínguez <jtom...@mail.idecnet.com> wrote in message
news:a1n4j8$cj1$1...@diana.bcn.ttd.net...
>
~greg
"Sue Winterbottom" >
> My mother could never take Hardy seriously
> by the way (she used to read them when we were studying them at school).
> She found the family suicide scene - with a note left saying: "Done
> because we are too many" (in Jude the Obscure) hilarious - and still
> laughs today whenever it is mentioned.
>
> Peace,
>
> Sue
" - SOMETIMES, DOLORES,
SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO BE
A HIGH-RIDING BITCH...
TO SURVIVE.
SOMETIMES...
BEING A BITCH...
IS ALL A WOMAN HAS
TO HANG ONTO.
- THANK YOU, VERA.
- NOW, GO ON HOME.
PAM AND SHEILA
CAN CLEAN UP.
REMEMBER,
ECLIPSE AT 5:00. "
-- from: Dolores Claiborne
(Stephen King (book)
Tony Gilroy (screenplay))
~~~~~~~~
My father used to have a photographic memory.
He's 86 and it's still better than mine ever was.
He was just telling me this Christmas that last year
he visited a small hill-town between Lucca and Florence.
But he couldn't remember the name.
~greg
Sue Winterbottom
> My father used to have a photographic memory.
> He's 86 and it's still better than mine ever was.
>
> He was just telling me this Christmas that last year
> he visited a small hill-town between Lucca and Florence.
>
> But he couldn't remember the name.
>
I thought you told us a while back that your parents died after a car
crash? You wrote some months ago about a time when you got news they had
been badly injured (your sister laughed) and were not likely to
survive - I took it as meaning that they did not survive. Looks like I
was wrong. And I'm glad that your father has lived to be 86. And I know
he (and you) travelled in Italy a lot; but I don't really see what you
are getting at here (why you are telling me/us this). Perhaps I should,
perhaps not. What did you do - get the map out and suggest a few things?
Do it from memory?
Oh, I see, perhaps you are wondering why I am telling anybody about my
mother laughing at Jude (and this is a sort of tit for tat). Yes, that
makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. I suppose it was just to
illustrate the point that my mother would agree with Bill - that Hardy's
plots can seem to have something of black humour about them. If that
wasn't Bill's point (actually I don't think it was - I can't find what
he wrote now, but it was along the lines that if none of the characters
had any free will what was the point of reading about the decisions they
made) then I apologise for introducing irrelevant material here.
Greg, it is fairly unusual for you to write responses to things I post
here and three in one day (as this now is) is unheard of. And they have
all been fairly enigmatic (your responses) and difficult to reply to. I
keep replying because I do like you and in the past have enjoyed such
correspondence as we have had here and elsewhere. But sometimes you make
it difficult (and so no doubt do I). This is one of those times. And if
I'm to blame I'm sorry.
Sue
José Tomás Domínguez
Don't worry. I know children who cry come to a point they can't stop
crying no matter what you do, no matter what prize or punishment you
promised to them. Nothing has convinced me still adults are really
different.
If I have not answer you before is 'cause I am so (perversely) well educated
(Well, I don't discard a little authism too) that if somebody says to me
"Shut up" I can't speak. At least till the cry is over. (A big defect!)
I have not seen the post you mention. By the way I have not seen the post
of Big Al either (I don't see Big Al posts). So my last message was a
terrible
mistake since it was unaware of any previous writting of last two months.
Hard comeback.
Yesterday, worried as I was for you, I did my duty and read in reversed
order
messages to find specially the first appearence of the word "intellectual"
recently.
I look too for a comic strip of Li'l Abner talking about intellectuality
with the funny
ortography Al Capp puts in the mouth of his hillbillies but I didn't found
it. I found two
or three absolutely misinterpreted threads that I am sure we laugh at under
other
circunstances. And I found the message I was looking. Taking a step back to
stare at yourself seems somehow unnatural; seeing other people take that
step
to stare at you is simply said maddening, a way of ostracism, so if besides
they arrogate
themselves the neutrality of their knowledge and wisdom... When I was doing
my
obligatory army time, I fell in love with a guy who married the only
daughter of a well
stablished psychiatrist. Last times I saw him he was living in hell,
prosecuted, every
word, every gesture of my friend scrutinized, analyzed and sanctioned
recentless, every
word, every gesture of the Big Man expressing the full satisfaction that
everything was
comfirming what he knew from the start, a real beating without the punches.
This about intellectual pleasures.
And I'm so confused about the motto. Is it referred to XX Century or XXI
Century?
If it is referred to XX Century, it has not sense yet since the list of isms
of XX
Century is closed by definition of Century. If it is referred to XXI Century
then both
XX Century and XXI Century are not unique in that losing any meaning too. Is
it
then the promise that the only ism left from XX Century into the XXI Century
will be
the ism proposed by the uncredited author of the motto? Does the uncredited
author
of the motto bet for irrefutable omniscient scientificism or s/he rely in
common sense?
Are both things the same? Would s/he talk of something not related to Cohen
in this n.g.
even if it is the ism? Who is it then? (You didn't insist enough on the
motto, so this is to
try to make you smile)
Future
Pp.
julia
>being comforted for that blanket of comfort is often that there is no
>room for feelings and thoughts that might not seem appropiate to the
>occasion some of which may be able to rob death of it's victory.
Dear Jack,
It took me a while to respond to this. I read it, re-read it, saved it, came
back to it again and again. So much to think about. The above quote really
touched me. You see I know from many different angles how broad the array of
death-related emotions can be. As a nurse who at one time specialized in death
and dying, I have seen these dramas play out with my patients and their
families. And interestingly, I am really very good at putting others at ease
during the dying process. I love being in there all close and intimate.
Helping them through the praying, the crying, the swearing at God, the
screaming. In fact it used to be a ( yes, okay, dark) joke that my patients
would wait to die until I came on shift. I don't say any of these things
lightly... or to seem boastful or cavalier. I say them because I think this is
the gift I recieved from living through the hell of my mother's disappearance
into the long- goodbye of a cancer death. That was almost ten years ago now.
And it truly surprises me that I am able to admit that anything positive came
from that wretched experience. It surprises me because at the time I had
*every* seemingly inappropriate emotion and reaction possible. Most of all I
was ANGRY. And not just "rage rage against the dying of the light" angry. I
mean I was SERIOUSLY pissed off at God for taking my mother from me ... at my
Dad for being too willing to let mom go... at mom for giving up the fight and
leaving me (though inside I knew she couldn't possibly win even if she tried)
... at my brothers for bailing on the whole situation ... at my grandmother
(mom's mom) for accusing me of killing mom by keeping her in the
pain-minimizing narcotic haze that she had requested (mom and I had made a
deal... I would keep her out of pain, and she wouldn't kill herself... she was
also a nurse btw.) << DAMN I had forgotten about THAT!!!! Grandma you crazy
old woman, I DID NOT KILL MY MOTHER. Cancer did!!!! >> Aaaanyway... anger...
you get the point. But THAT one I could rationalize. I was justified in being
angry, right??!! But those other things that came up. What about when you
want to laugh hysterically at something. How wrong does that seem?? Shhhh
someone is dying. Can't do that. What about needing to feel close to my
husband (yeah I was married by age 23. divorced now. go figure)... Certainly
can't want to have SEX when someone is dying in the house!! What about little
girl feelings of desperately needing her mom... aching to hear her voice saying
the one name that she alone in the world called me ("birdy" if you must know)??
What in the hell do you do with feelings like THAT?? Aaaaanyway... I guess my
point is that I am so aware of what feelings lurk ahead as I go down this path
with my dad. And from the comfort I have received here I feel confident that
we all will be able to handle whatever crazy things come to the surface.
Whatever *stuff* my pain may trigger in others... I think will ultimately
enlighten or benefit us all in some way. And believe me... I am ALL FOR
anything that can rob death of it's victory!! (tell Dr. Death to fuck off good
and proper... ABSOLUTELY!!!!).
Just wanted to add, Jack. You should definitely keep up the wonderful things
you've described in raising your son. Especially the ripples in the sink type
stuff. He will remember those things forever! My Dad used to wake me up in
the middle of the night to watch summer lightening storms. How great a memory
is that???!!!! Fabulous!
julia
>it came across that way to Julia? I think people were genuinely trying to
>be kind.
Actually it didn't come across that way at all. It felt warm and sympathetic.
And if Jack is referring to Michael's enthusiastic extolling of this group's
virtues when it comes to offering support... well, he was just trying hard to
help his hurting friend... and it worked brilliantly.
julia
>energy of slaves.
Hah!! This did NOT go unnoticed! Perfect! I've been reading this so much
lately. In fact in the chat on Saturday I asked people to give me numbers from
1 to 116 and recited the poems corresponding to the numbers given. An
entertaining diversion to say the very least! (hopefully enjoyed by more than
just the girl typing the words!) In case you're interested... this lottery of
sorts gave the most interesting combination of poems. We read: 64, 116, 22,
31, 30, 27, 9, 40, 93, 107, 109, 111, and perhaps others I've already
forgotten.
Thank you Leonard, wherever you are!
Sue Winterbottom
> PAM AND SHEILA
> CAN CLEAN UP.
>
> REMEMBER,
> ECLIPSE AT 5:00. "
>
> -- from: Dolores Claiborne
> (Stephen King (book)
> Tony Gilroy (screenplay))
>
>
> ~~~~~~~~
I do not know which to prefer,
The beauty of inflections
Or the beauty of innuendoes,
The blackbird whistling
Or just after.
Wallace Stevens (1879-1955)
José Tomás Domínguez
I see how desconsiderate I am. If you are going to jump to the pool, better
quick. So thanks, because of you I did it with only a jump.
> every word, every gesture of my friend scrutinized, analyzed and
sanctioned
> recentless,
I wanted to say relentless, of course.
Pp.
Jack Lazariuk
> << DAMN I had forgotten about THAT!!!!
Thank you Julia for going way beyond the expected and speaking about
something that must have been very painful to you. The deal that you
made with your mother that you would keep her out of pain and that she
wouldn't kill herself is something that has caused me a lot of thought
and I would appreciate learning more about the kind of relationship
that would lead to such a deal.
I'm asking a lot of you and I don't want you to feel tricked and so I
caution you that I am looking as one whose experience suggests that it
was not a good deal that you entered but an understandable one.
Feel free to drop the subject if you don't sense it leading to
anything fruitful
Jack
julia
>made with your mother that you would keep her out of pain and that she
>wouldn't kill herself is something that has caused me a lot of thought
>and I would appreciate learning more about the kind of relationship
>that would lead to such a deal.
Jack,
I don't mind having this discussion at all. It is painful but well worth
exploring. I have been all around the suicide/euthanasia issue. Physician
assisted suicide has been a hotly debated topic here in the Northwestern part
of the US in recent years. Especially since Oregon state passed laws in favor
of it. Before mom received her terminal diagnosis, I could intellectually
rationalize the benefit of a person taking their own life rather than waiting
for agony and death to come calling. And as a nurse... before and since that
time, I have wished I could administer a lethal dose of Morphine or Insulin to
patients in acute distress and suffering. BUT... for me all of this faded into
meaninglessness when mom candidly informed me that she planned to end her own
life the moment she felt the pain was intractable, unbearable, too horrible to
manage. My immediate reaction was a sad and desperate NOOOOOOOO!! I'm certain
that part of that reaction was my own selfishness and utter powerlessness. But
more, even though I was a non-practicing protestant in those days, I had grave
concerns for her soul. I couldn't help telling her that as she was shuffling
off this mortal coil... I NEEDED so much to believe that we would meet again in
whatever the afterlife has to offer. And, though of course I could never be
certain, I also believed that her committing suicide may have eliminated that
possibility. And so she agreed to the deal. Dad and I would keep her at
home... free from pain ... and she would put away the Hemlock Society
literature and not take her own life. In retrospect... it seems like a brave
and trusting decision on her part. And so self-less. A horrible yet touching
and loving gift to her only daughter. My mom was *SO* brilliant. Intelligent,
vibrant, vital, beautiful, powerful, amazing. I recognize now how very hard
it must have been for her to surrender her suffering into the hands of a very
young daughter-nurse and a wounded and struggling husband-physician. But she
did. And that was the deal.