Closing Time...
Chrisman Dinnan
ears of youth, accept to say it isn't worth a damm..."
I just love that snippet, not that the whole song isn't just as cool. As of
right now, it's my favorite Cohen song.
Any comments on this song?? I'd like to share insights with anyone who
enjoys it as much as I do.
Chrisman
~greg
"Chrisman Dinnan" <broc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:B71EAEED.986B%broc...@earthlink.net...
> "...And I lift my glass to the awful truth, which you can't reveal to the
> ears of youth, accept to say it isn't worth a damm..."
it's "dime", not "damn".
> I just love that snippet, not that the whole song isn't just as cool. As of
> right now, it's my favorite Cohen song.
>
> Any comments on this song?? I'd like to share insights with anyone who
> enjoys it as much as I do.
>
>
> Chrisman
>
There's been a lot of discussion of it here. Check out Google.
In fact, there was a chapter in 'The Leonard Cohen Issue'
of Essays on Canadian Writing (home page: http://www.ecw.ca/home.htm )
edited by Stephen Scobie, called
"Who's the Boss? An Internet discussion on 'Closing Time'. "
The discussion was started by Fiona, who is a consistently
pleasant read here, both on and off LC topics.
in fact, also, I saw something else in the song, and made
a rare effort to interpret the song as a whole. That experience
was frustrating. However I don't believe LC has ever deliberately
tried to stymie interpretations, - but that stymie them he does,
since it's the inevitable consequence of what his true goals happen to be.
I think the closer to reality things get, the less guidance there is
to be gotten from preconceptions and abstractions for make
meaning of them - and that LC always had it as his goal things
that are very real .
~
Dylan is more likely to transform a cliche and to revitalize it that way.
Cohen I think tends to take them as given and then suddenly turn on them,
deepen them that way.
In this case the cliche he starts with is something that
must be very familiar to all parents - and is the essence
of the movie 'Life is Beautiful'. And there's a tv ad out now
that caught my attention for a second: - I think it was for
some kind of insurance. Anyway, it starts off with a couple
getting a phone call apparently from a creditor who's threatening
to alter their whole life-style. And after that they go to the dinner table
where one of their children asks them who called. And they say
"no one, just a wrong number." The human interest in it is
how we can see the conflict on their faces as they lie, while
knowing that these clues to lying are invisible to children.
I think parents are always conflicted between given their kids
a pure unworried childhood on the one hand, and not lying to
them on the other.
But then LC says "it isn't worth a dime".
And the question begged is, - what is "it" ?
And in what sense can "it" be measured by money?
Perhaps "it" - is the trashing of love
- over financial quarrels?
Jack has recently been so taken by the line
"every heart to love will come, but like a refugee"
that he wrote a whole post about it with only one spelling mistake!
And I think he's right.
And we can paraphrase it somewhat as:
"every heart to love will come, but like a child"
And that's how it should be, and continue, and
no child should have to knock to get in, nor have
to pay rent to stay, for awhile anyway.
~greg
m.p
----------
In article <B71EAEED.986B%broc...@earthlink.net>,
Chrisman Dinnan <broc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
i also feel that the song is real cool. Gives me a heat
burning ice kind of feeling.
right now i particularly like the snippets:
So we struggle and we stagger
down the snakes and up the ladder
to the tower where the blessed hours chime
And I swear it happened just like this:
a sigh, a cry, a hungry kiss
the Gates of Love they budged an inch
I can't say much has happened since
but closing time
And the whole damn place goes crazy twice
and it's once for the Devil and it's once for Christ
we're busted in the blinding lines
of closing time
Melia
Jack Lazariuk
> Chrisman Dinnan <broc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>> "...And I lift my glass to the awful truth, which you can't
>> reveal to the
>> ears of youth, accept to say it isn't worth a damm..."
isn't worth a dime
m.p wrote :
> we're busted in the blinding lines
the blinding lights
jack
Fiona Harrington
>
> "Chrisman Dinnan" <broc...@earthlink.net> wrote
> > ears of youth, accept to say it isn't worth a damm..."
> it's "dime", not "damn".
> > I just love that snippet, not that the whole song isn't just as cool. As of
> > right now, it's my favorite Cohen song.
> >
> > Any comments on this song?? I'd like to share insights with anyone who
> > enjoys it as much as I do.
> > Chrisman
> There's been a lot of discussion of it here. Check out Google.
>
> In fact, there was a chapter in 'The Leonard Cohen Issue'
> of Essays on Canadian Writing (home page: http://www.ecw.ca/home.htm )
> edited by Stephen Scobie, called
> "Who's the Boss? An Internet discussion on 'Closing Time'. "
> The discussion was started by Fiona, who is a consistently
> pleasant read here, both on and off LC topics.
Nice of you to say that Greg, thanks! You're no slouch yourself when it
comes to pleasant perceptiveness and non-competitive erudition (although
Bruce is moving up fast on the erudition lane!) What you say below,
substantially snipped, is very interesting to me and adds considerable
depth, I'd like to hear more of what you have to say on this song. I've
wondered what `It' referred to too and gave, at least I think I gave
I'll have to re-read what I wrote, some sort of fairly surfacey
interpretation of what I thought `It' meant. The "trashing of love" as
as you put it, is part if not all of it, though not `It.' I think.
If something isn't worth a dime then either the thing can't be measured
by money or it genuinely isn't worth even as much as a dime. (How much
is a dime worth incidentally?) And that, it seems to me, is the world
weary boss's world weary, even cynical, conclusion which is why I said I
saw cynicism in the song though others didn't agree and argued their
positions very persuasively.
> in fact, also, I saw something else in the song, and made
> a rare effort to interpret the song as a whole. That experience
> But then LC says "it isn't worth a dime".
> And the question begged is, - what is "it" ?
> And in what sense can "it" be measured by money?
>
> Perhaps "it" - is the trashing of love
> - over financial quarrels?
>
> Jack has recently been so taken by the line
> "every heart to love will come, but like a refugee"
> that he wrote a whole post about it with only one spelling mistake!
> And I think he's right.
> And we can paraphrase it somewhat as:
> "every heart to love will come, but like a child"
> And that's how it should be, and continue, and
> no child should have to knock to get in, nor have
> to pay rent to stay, for awhile anyway.
>
> ~greg
Absolutely. Anthem balances Closing Time very effectively I think,
never thought about it like that before. I'll have to go and listen to
`The Future' again, haven't heard it in quite a while.
Fiona.
Chrisman Dinnan
> From: "~greg" <g...@magpage.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.music.leonard-cohen
> Date: 9 May 2001 14:05:20 GMT
> Subject: Re: Closing Time...
>
>
> "Chrisman Dinnan" <broc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:B71EAEED.986B%broc...@earthlink.net...
>> "...And I lift my glass to the awful truth, which you can't reveal to the
>> ears of youth, accept to say it isn't worth a damm..."
>
>
> it's "dime", not "damn".
The first in what I'm sure will become a long list of corrections.
>
>
> There's been a lot of discussion of it here. Check out Google.
>
> In fact, there was a chapter in 'The Leonard Cohen Issue'
> of Essays on Canadian Writing (home page: )
> edited by Stephen Scobie, called
> "Who's the Boss? An Internet discussion on 'Closing Time'. "
> The discussion was started by Fiona, who is a consistently
> pleasant read here, both on and off LC topics.
I will defiantly check out the Essays on Canadian Writings, thanks.
>
> in fact, also, I saw something else in the song, and made
> a rare effort to interpret the song as a whole. That experience
> was frustrating. However I don't believe LC has ever deliberately
> tried to stymie interpretations, - but that stymie them he does,
> since it's the inevitable consequence of what his true goals happen to be.
> I think the closer to reality things get, the less guidance there is
> to be gotten from preconceptions and abstractions for make
> meaning of them - and that LC always had it as his goal things
> that are very real .
Some would say that after an artist has completed his/her creation, that
said creation takes on a life of it's own and is open to many
interpretations, even beyond those of it creator. If that makes any
sense...
> ~
>
> Dylan is more likely to transform a cliche and to revitalize it that way.
> Cohen I think tends to take them as given and then suddenly turn on them,
> deepen them that way.
Quite right.
>
> In this case the cliche he starts with is something that
> must be very familiar to all parents - and is the essence
> of the movie 'Life is Beautiful'. And there's a tv ad out now
> that caught my attention for a second: - I think it was for
> some kind of insurance. Anyway, it starts off with a couple
> getting a phone call apparently from a creditor who's threatening
> to alter their whole life-style. And after that they go to the dinner table
> where one of their children asks them who called. And they say
> "no one, just a wrong number." The human interest in it is
> how we can see the conflict on their faces as they lie, while
> knowing that these clues to lying are invisible to children.
> I think parents are always conflicted between given their kids
> a pure unworried childhood on the one hand, and not lying to
> them on the other.
>
> But then LC says "it isn't worth a dime".
> And the question begged is, - what is "it" ?
> And in what sense can "it" be measured by money?
>
> Perhaps "it" - is the trashing of love
> - over financial quarrels?
That was not my impression, yet I'm quickly finding out that in the Cohen
community, I am but an egg. I think it best if I dwell on exactly what my
interpretations are before I expose them to such an informed crowd as this
one. Perhaps I have bitten off more than I can chew...
>
>
> Jack has recently been so taken by the line
> "every heart to love will come, but like a refugee"
> that he wrote a whole post about it with only one spelling mistake!
> And I think he's right.
> And we can paraphrase it somewhat as:
> "every heart to love will come, but like a child"
> And that's how it should be, and continue, and
> no child should have to knock to get in, nor have
> to pay rent to stay, for awhile anyway.
Very insightful.
>
Chrisman
Chrisman Dinnan
>
>
> i also feel that the song is real cool. Gives me a heat
> burning ice kind of feeling.
>
> right now i particularly like the snippets:
>
>
> So we struggle and we stagger
> down the snakes and up the ladder
> to the tower where the blessed hours chime
> And I swear it happened just like this:
> a sigh, a cry, a hungry kiss
> the Gates of Love they budged an inch
> I can't say much has happened since
> but closing time
Part of me can't help but go back to the children's board game "Chutes and
Ladders" ...down the snakes and up the ladder...
I'm not necessarily putting this forth as my interpretation, yet I cannot
help the association.
>
>
Chrisman
jack Lazariuk
Chrisman Dinnan <broc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I think that is *exactly* the association that Leonard intended.
Those able to "go back to the children's" view of anything, probably in
this day and age, are the only one's that are going to be able to shed
any light on the mess we are in.
It is encouraging to have you here with us Chrisman, please keep on with
your observations.
Jack
Love is not just looking at each other, it's looking in the same
direction.
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
BigAl
<snippity dooh dah>
> That was not my impression, yet I'm quickly finding out that in the Cohen
> community, I am but an egg. I think it best if I dwell on exactly what my
> interpretations are before I expose them to such an informed crowd as this
> one. Perhaps I have bitten off more than I can chew...
Now look here old bean! Just why should your interpretations be any less
insightful than anyone elses? A view is a view is a view. The only person
who knows (and then maybe he doesn't know; just needed a rhyme at that
point) is LC and everything else is just conjecture. By all means listen to
everyone elses view; it may help you in (re-)evealuation but then so can
your views help others do exactly the same. I reckon I'd be OK in saying
that *all* views are welcome providing we all steer clear of the "I'm right,
you're wrong" type of post 'cos then we just spiral down inter internicine
warfare and we don't want that happening do we folks?
<No BigAl, we don't>
Did I hear something :--)
> Chrisman
BigAl
Sue Winterbottom
m.p <me...@ilhawaii.net> wrote in message
news:7JhK6.147$iC1....@news6.giganews.com...
>
>
> Gives me a heat
> burning ice kind of feeling.
>
best description of Cohen I ever read
S.
Bill Van Dyk
I have always felt that the view that song means whatever you take it to mean,
however it makes you feel, whatever you see in it at the moment, is the very
definition of "casual" listener. This is a way of listening that requires
minimum effort and which, in my view, most minimizes the achievement of the
artist.
I think it is important to try to know something about the what the artist drew
into his work, what experiences, knowledge, and cultural artifacts played a role
in the formation of his work.
At that point, it might be interesting to a person to reflect on personal
experience and feelings, but I have always found that public discussion is the
most interesting when someone like Greg drags in some obscure but relevant piece
of knowledge-- case in point, the recent discussion on "The Story of Isaac".
Don't songs endure because they contain within themselves a richness and
suggestiveness that spans personal experience and touches many people.
To me...
Suzanne is a richer and better song now that I've seen "the lady of the
harbour"...
Hallelujah is even better if you know about David and Bathsheba
First We Take Manhattan is even more intriguing if you think the "line that's
moving through the station" is a reference to the holocaust...
Girl From the North Country seems more valuable to me if it is about Echo...
The Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll is more important because William Zanzinger
recently served another jail term for claiming to be the landlord of a property
he didn't own...
On the other hand...
Candle in the Wind .... Elton John took a song that was an elegant, poignant
memorial to Marilyn Monroe and then took out the most intriguing lyrics and
bowlderized it into a mediocre tribute to a mediocre woman most known for being
most well-known... I can't stomach the revision. I can't stomach the way the
song has been cheapened. It's like re-using your old loveletters. Cross out
"Marilyn" and scribble "Lady Di" in front of dear and see if you can't also
re-use the stamp.
The resident curmudgeon,
Bill.
Bill Van Dyk
> On the other hand...
> Candle in the Wind .... Elton John took a song that was an elegant, poignant
> memorial to Marilyn Monroe and then took out the most intriguing lyrics and
> bowlderized it into a mediocre tribute to a mediocre woman most known for being
> most well-known... I can't stomach the revision. I can't stomach the way the
> song has been cheapened. It's like re-using your old loveletters. Cross out
> "Marilyn" and scribble "Lady Di" in front of dear and see if you can't also
> re-use the stamp.
To elaborate, this to me is a classic case of the song-writer himself (Taupin,
actually) deciding that song would mean whatever he felt like it meant at the given
moment.
Another example: "This Land is Your Land", turned into a children's song, with a
new meaning-- "hey, get out there and feel good about America, land of plenty..."
They almost never sing the verse that includes the lines:
I saw a sign that said "no trespassing"
But on the other side
It didn't say nothin'
This land was made for you and me...
Appropriated.
And I'm still waiting to see the episode of "The Dick Van Dyke Show" in which Little
Richie was conceived. I think it is the solemn responsibility of this newsgroup to
unearth this long-suppressed episode or, failing that, to recreate it and make it
available on the internet. This has nothing to do with anything but I thought I'd
say it anyway because someone has to.
Cast:
Alan Brady: Dick Straub
Mel: Michael C.
Jerry: Jack L.
Dick Petrie: Bob Parkins
Laura: Tami Byler (where-ever she is)
Millie: Bobbie
Sally: Barbara
Buddy: Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Bombshell Next Door Who Makes Laura Jealous: Tuesday Weld
Guy who gets to make out with Beautiful Bombshell next door: Bill (me -- you got a
problem?)
Bill Van Dyk
> Cast:
> Alan Brady: Dick Straub
> Mel: Michael C.
> Jerry: Jack L.
> Dick Petrie: Bob Parkins
Oops. How could I blow that: ROB Petrie (Oooooohhhhh Roooooob).
Paul Galvin
~greg <g...@magpage.com> wrote in message
>
> Dylan is more likely to transform a cliche and to revitalize it that way.
> Cohen I think tends to take them as given and then suddenly turn on them,
> deepen them that way.
>
> In this case the cliche he starts with is something that
> must be very familiar to all parents - and is the essence
> of the movie 'Life is Beautiful'. And there's a tv ad out now
> that caught my attention for a second: - I think it was for
> some kind of insurance. Anyway, it starts off with a couple
> getting a phone call apparently from a creditor who's threatening
> to alter their whole life-style. And after that they go to the dinner
table
> where one of their children asks them who called. And they say
> "no one, just a wrong number." The human interest in it is
> how we can see the conflict on their faces as they lie, while
> knowing that these clues to lying are invisible to children.
> I think parents are always conflicted between given their kids
> a pure unworried childhood on the one hand, and not lying to
> them on the other.
>
> But then LC says "it isn't worth a dime".
> And the question begged is, - what is "it" ?
> And in what sense can "it" be measured by money?
>
> Perhaps "it" - is the trashing of love
> - over financial quarrels?
>
>
(snip)
>~greg
Not sure either what "it" is but I understood the line to be "except (not
accept) to say it isn't worth a dime" which indicates to me that the ears of
youth should be told "it's there, but don't worry about it - it isn't worth
a dime."
Off on a tangent now but the regular band at my local pub a few years ago
always used to play Tina Turner's "Break Every Rule" as their last song of
the night. Somehow it seemed appropriate at closing time. I would associate
it with LC's Closing Time through the line "she's a hundred but she wears
her dresses tight"
"Closing Time" is also one of those songs that really needs the volume to be
cranked right up - it loses all effect otherwise.
--
Paul.
Jack Lazariuk
>> Jack has recently been so taken by the line
>> "every heart to love will come, but like a refugee"
>> that he wrote a whole post about it with only one spelling mistake!
>> And I think he's right.
>> And we can paraphrase it somewhat as:
>> "every heart to love will come, but like a child"
Here you go changing what he worked on for so long. Instead of changing how
about adding?
some of the refugees will be children and although every heart to love will
come like a refugee the ones that enter will enter like a child.
Jack
Jack Lazariuk
> As the resident objectivist I must chime in....
are you an objectivist Bill? I didn't know that.
Jack
Michael S. Connaghan
Martijn. That's it. My day long resolution to be nice is eighty-sixed.
Thanks Bill! I was hoping for an easy way out of that. It didn't feel
right, anyway.
I would, of course, be Alan Brady but with real hair.
Mike
ps You wouldn't even be on the show. We'd have to go over to
Gilligan's Island to find you. Billigan's Island!
With Billigan,(BVD), the Skipper too(me), the millionaire(Jack),
and his wife(Martijn), the movie star(Fiona) the professor(Greg),
and Marianne(Ania) here on Billigan's Isle!
Bill Van Dyk <bvand...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3AFB43B7...@home.com...
Michael S. Connaghan
A tale of a pinko twit
His heart was full of love and stuff
but his head was full of shit
Theme from "Billigan's Island"
Well that's the first verse. I'll finish it later. The dogs have cornered
a groundhog. I hate it when they have fun without me.
Mike
Michael S. Connaghan <mcba...@socket.net> wrote in message
news:tfo50j5...@corp.supernews.com...
Michael S. Connaghan
The Skipper's voice was full of concern. Billigan had gone down
into the cave over an hour ago. "Billigan! Billigan! You come up
outta there. Right Now! I'm not kidding, Billigan."
"What seems to be the trouble Skipper?" It was Turdston Howl the
turd, the millionaire.
"Oh. It's Billigan, Mr. Howl. I think he might be hurt."
"I wouldn't be concerned, Skipper, You know how that boy is. He's
use to getting himself in deep."
Billigans head pops up out of the cave,"That's not what Mrs. Howl says!"
(pause for laughtrack)" Hey Skipper, Hey Skipper"
"What is it little buddy?"
"Hey Skipper, guess what I found?"
"What? What is it Billigan?"
"There's no light at the end of the tunnell. It just keeps getting
darker the deeper you go."
"Wait a minute!" Chimed in theProfessor, "You're not using the cave
as a metaphor for Martijn's soul, are you?"
Everybody looked at the Professor and stared.
"Because if you are," he went on oblivious to their bewilderment, "then
..."
"Wait a minute, Professor!" the Skipper cupped a hand to his ear,
"Did you hear that? I better go see what it is,,"
Billigan jumped up and ran after the Skipper, "I'll go with you Skipper."
The Professor looked at Mr. Howl. Mr Howl looked at the Professor.
And where were Ginger and Marianne?
To be continuednews:tfo6nvi...@corp.supernews.com...
Bill Van Dyk
> Sit right back and you'll hear a tale
> A tale of a pinko twit
> His heart was full of love and stuff
> but his head was full of shit
> Theme from "Billigan's Island"
>
The mate was a mighty sailing man
The poet brave and pure
Five synchophants set sail that day
And tried to be mature...
The poet went into retreat
On Baldy with his monk
If not for all the "Greatest Hits"
The decade would have stunk
So join us here each week my friend,
You're sure to see a brawl
When Michael posts his parodies
Of Bill and Jack and all...
Michael S. Connaghan
Mikenews:3AFC546...@home.com...
Valerie Shertzman
that.
Valerie
"Michael S. Connaghan" <mcba...@socket.net> wrote in
message news:tfou7n5...@corp.supernews.com...
Sue Winterbottom
I think Bills' vues are eleetis. he sais you mus reed alot. no alot of
Bathebas. travel ect or you are jus this cashul lissener persun, I am
writtig to you becos 1)If I sa sumthing he wil not lik me 2)if I speek
to Bills I ma laff.
sW
Bill Van Dyk <bvand...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3AFB40AD...@home.com...
jack Lazariuk
"Sue Winterbottom" <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> Deer profesur Greg
> I think Bills' vues are eleetis. he sais you mus reed alot. no alot of
> Bathebas. travel ect or you are jus this cashul lissener persun, I am
> writtig to you becos 1)If I sa sumthing he wil not lik me 2)if I speek
> to Bills I ma laff.
> sW
And thank you Sue for my second big laugh of the day. Last night I
feared that this would not be a day of laughing.
Jack
~greg
"Fiona Harrington" <lbs...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote in message news:3AFA822D...@brunel.ac.uk...
> ~greg wrote:
> >
> > "Chrisman Dinnan" <broc...@earthlink.net> wrote
> > > "...And I lift my glass to the awful truth, which you can't reveal to the
> > > ears of youth, accept to say it isn't worth a damm..."
> > it's "dime", not "damn".
> > > I just love that snippet, not that the whole song isn't just as cool. As of
> > > right now, it's my favorite Cohen song.
> > >
> > > Any comments on this song?? I'd like to share insights with anyone who
> > > enjoys it as much as I do.
> > > Chrisman
> > There's been a lot of discussion of it here. Check out Google.
> >
> > In fact, there was a chapter in 'The Leonard Cohen Issue'
> > of Essays on Canadian Writing (home page: http://www.ecw.ca/home.htm )
> > edited by Stephen Scobie, called
> > "Who's the Boss? An Internet discussion on 'Closing Time'. "
> > The discussion was started by Fiona, who is a consistently
> > pleasant read here, both on and off LC topics.
>
> Nice of you to say that Greg, thanks!
No way.
- It's just the barest minimal statement of fact, ma'am.
And don't be misled by any interpretation of the word "pleasant"
as "just pleasant", because It's meant rather in the
root-mean-square sense of the averaging of the ecstasy of your appearances,
with the desolation of your absences.
> You're no slouch yourself when it
> comes to pleasant perceptiveness and non-competitive erudition (although
> Bruce is moving up fast on the erudition lane!) What you say below,
> substantially snipped, is very interesting to me and adds considerable
> depth, I'd like to hear more of what you have to say on this song. I've
> wondered what `It' referred to too and gave, at least I think I gave
> I'll have to re-read what I wrote, some sort of fairly surfacey
> interpretation of what I thought `It' meant.
> The "trashing of love" as
> as you put it, is part if not all of it, though not `It.'
I can't remember the details of my interpretation either -
- and i dread rereading my posts.
I remember you were all on about wondering who
closed the joint - the typical boozer's spiteful placing
of blame, I thought, so I tried to divert attention away
from G-d, who after all must sometimes have to stand
naked too, and onto the significance of "twice" --
something like that. I did try hard to make everything
work together though.
What occurs to me now in
I lift my glass to the Awful Truth
which you can't reveal to the Ears of Youth
except to say it isn't worth a dime
is the capitals in it, on the Awful Truth, and the Ears of Youth,
If he'd also capitalized Worth a Dime, then I'd say all three
lines were intended as a parody what everybody who's
Been Around the Block a Couple of Times
is liable to find themselves saying at any moment,
- and so he'd be mocking himself and his whole song
in saying it.
But the capitals only occur in the first two lines,
so those may be the cliche that he's negating
with the third line -- as if to say that you *can* reveal
it to the ears of youth - and as a matter of fact
they're the very ears that are most likely to hear you,
as he well knows, having been listened to
by youth when he was over thirty even in those
times when Nobody Over Thirty was to be Trusted,
- something of a dirty-mirrored cliche to this one.
But my brain is soup.
I'll have to correct everybody's mistakes in the morning.
> I think.
> If something isn't worth a dime then either the thing can't be measured
> by money or it genuinely isn't worth even as much as a dime. (How much
> is a dime worth incidentally?)
Long after there was nothing worth 'only' a dime,
the expressions involving it continued in use.
They undoubtedly go back to the depression,
(listen to Boz Scaggs' great 12 minute "Loan Me a Dime")
There were a lot of them.
But best of all, a dime could buy a phone call
(hence - "to drop a dime"- 'to rat'. )
And even after it had been joined by the nikkel and
quarter, the dime's circular slot held center
place among the three of them. And the tinkle of
the dime dropping down the funnel, and then it's
clunk on hitting the other coins at the bottom of
the mettal box, - was strongly associated, pavlov-doggy
style with the joy of hearing the voice of the beloved
so far away - ( - the sound of your modem connecting
and the 'you've got mail' are but pale reminders
of the intense anticipatory pleasures of those erstwhile
tinkle/thunks. )
So - because of that - to say "it isn't worth a dime"
- is much the same as saying - "it isn't worth a fuck."
and If you understand the latter (and i never really did)
- then you understand the former.
> And that, it seems to me, is the world
> weary boss's world weary, even cynical, conclusion which is why I said I
> saw cynicism in the song though others didn't agree and argued their
> positions very persuasively.
To me it was the best thread ever, and I miss it terribly.
> > in fact, also, I saw something else in the song, and made
> > a rare effort to interpret the song as a whole. That experience
>
> > But then LC says "it isn't worth a dime".
> > And the question begged is, - what is "it" ?
> > And in what sense can "it" be measured by money?
> >
> > Perhaps "it" - is the trashing of love
> > - over financial quarrels?
> >
> > Jack has recently been so taken by the line
> > "every heart to love will come, but like a refugee"
> > that he wrote a whole post about it with only one spelling mistake!
> > And I think he's right.
> > And we can paraphrase it somewhat as:
> > "every heart to love will come, but like a child"
> > And that's how it should be, and continue, and
> > no child should have to knock to get in, nor have
> > to pay rent to stay, for awhile anyway.
> >
> > ~greg
>
> Absolutely. Anthem balances Closing Time very effectively I think,
> never thought about it like that before. I'll have to go and listen to
> `The Future' again, haven't heard it in quite a while.
>
> Fiona.
refugee and child both come to it with absolute trust
- because they have no choice. the difference is
that the refugee comes with a past, or part of a past.
same thing in closing time - where the past
trying to be salvaged by the refugee happens
to have been the one with the person now present,
and he says that trying to revive 'that' past
isn't worth ... very much....
but i'm meandering.....
..almost dreaming...
night, fiona.
~greg
OH! Guess what?
- I'M IRISH!
honest!
~greg
Salu-te Sue!
this was so sweet of you!
so I say your name (sue)
like a cuckoo now when i'm blue:
sue Sue Sue
sue sue sue sue
Sue Sue Sue
sue Sue
sue Sue sue
sue
Sue sue Sue Sue
Sue Sue Sue
sue sue Sue
-whew!
soap to see you soon sue.
beaucoup,
(uh,
~greg)
ps:
bill? - screw you
too.
"Sue Winterbottom" <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message news:9dja9f$4mi$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
BigAl
news:3AFB40AD...@home.com...
> As the resident objectivist I must chime in....
> I have always felt that the view that song means whatever you take it to
mean,
> however it makes you feel, whatever you see in it at the moment, is the
very
> definition of "casual" listener. This is a way of listening that requires
> minimum effort and which, in my view, most minimizes the achievement of
the
> artist.
Apologies Bill but that is absolute bollocks. It might be the best way for
*you* to understand something but it ain't the way for me, nor, I would
suspect, for many people. I tend to learn/understand by a form of spiritual
or psychic osmosis. As I swim through the universe and as that universe
swims through me so an exchange occurs. Or, then again, no exchange occurs.
By allowing the larger part of the mind, that which is not immediately to
the fore, to work and play with whatever stimulus it has received I form a
*global* appreciation of what I have taken in. For me objectivism destroys
what has been created by breaking it down into simplistic bits thus negating
the *total* picture that the originator was trying to show.
I could suggest that objectivism is the means by those who don't have the
ability to throw their minds wide can cope with vast themes but that would
be rude, generic, belittling and probably untrue.
> I think it is important to try to know something about the what the artist
drew
> into his work, what experiences, knowledge, and cultural artifacts played
a role
> in the formation of his work.
No it isn't. In investigating someone who you like and expresses, whether in
words, music or visually, something that catches your imagination you walk
down paths you might never have done, all well and good. But it isn't needed
to appreciate what has been created.
> At that point, it might be interesting to a person to reflect on personal
> experience and feelings, but I have always found that public discussion is
the
> most interesting when someone like Greg drags in some obscure but relevant
piece
> of knowledge-- case in point, the recent discussion on "The Story of
Isaac".
> Don't songs endure because they contain within themselves a richness and
> suggestiveness that spans personal experience and touches many people.
And without anyone needing to know *what* they are about. Haven't you just
argued against your own point here?
> To me...
Quite. To *you* and how your mind works.
Methinks that you've let emotion get in the way of better judgement here
Bill. It would be easy for me to agree with you as I think the songs are
rubbish and trivialised both women, however I don't see how this bit adds to
your arguement. But I would stress that it wasn't Elton John who wrote the
lyrics but Bernie Taupin; not that that excuses him as he sang the damn
things.
> The resident curmudgeon,
Bugger, that's another NG job I've not got.
> Bill.
I would add though Bill that what I was putting across to Chrisman was *his*
thoughts are just as valid as anyone else's and he shouldn't think
otherwise. Just because others have discussed, dissected and digested the
works of LC doesn't mean his input is any less valid.
Where are you anyway Chrisman?
BigAl
<snippety dooh dah>
Sue Winterbottom
who went to sea and his pants got wet
'Well blow me down I'd rather die
than hang them out on the mast to dry!'
-Well blow me down I'd rather die
than hang them out on the mast to dry!
He called the crew, said 'Listen to me,
it's all a question of dignity.
I like the front - the front is fine
but your never gonna see this crack of mine'
-I like the front - the front is fine
but your never gonna see this crack of mine.
Oh the Captain he's a stalwart chap
he's bought the book and he's read the map
he knows the junk from the worthless stuff
and surely - 'Well, surely that's enough?'
-He knows the junk from the worthless stuff
and surely, surely that's enough.
-still working for your smile-
Sue
jack Lazariuk
"Sue Winterbottom" <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> -still working for your smile-
You make it seem so easy, not like work at all.
Jack
Michael S. Connaghan
,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,
@ @
o ^ o
o o
oooooo
----
Sue Winterbottom <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9drc0i$pe8$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Michael S. Connaghan
I sent it. It's turned into some kind of freaking death's head on me.
This is not what I meant at all. Really...I mean it... it was kind of cutesy
for my taste, but it really was smiling when it left here. I don't know
what it saw from here to there but whatever it was must have scared
the living shit out of it! Sorry about that. The damn thing's haunted.
I liked the song. I saw it sort of like Monty Python's "Lumberjack"
routine with sailors rather than Mounties singing the chorus.
All the Best,
Mikenews:tg2lape...@corp.supernews.com...
Chrisman Dinnan
> "Bill Van Dyk" <bvand...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3AFB40AD...@home.com...
>
> As the resident objectivist I must chime in....
> I have always felt that the view that song means whatever you take it to
> mean,
> however it makes you feel, whatever you see in it at the moment, is the
> very
> definition of "casual" listener. This is a way of listening that requires
> minimum effort and which, in my view, most minimizes the achievement of
> the
> artist.
The artist, in this case Mr. Cohen, has achieved much more than just writing
a song, don't you think?? A work of art can inspire creativity and thought
in others that may not have otherwise occurred, is this not so?? Might this
inspiration be the real achievement of the artist??
If this is so, then could it not also be so that to listen in an uninformed
or "casual" manner might lead to a less restrictive interpretation than that
of one who was more informed and actually knew a little more about the
artist, his history, themes, etc...
So here we have an example where one of the achievements of the artist is to
inspire thought and that, in *some* cases, not knowing may actually maximize
the artists achievement in this regard.
> I think it is important to try to know something about the what the artist
> drew
> into his work, what experiences, knowledge, and cultural artifacts played
> a role
> in the formation of his work.
While I may agree, to an extent, there are those who are more concerned with
the work than the creator. Some might even argue that to truly recognize
the achievement of the artist, one must know nothing of said artist.
Sometimes, after an artistic work is completed, it takes on a life of its
own. It becomes amiable to interpretations outside even those of the
creator.
Also, the knowledge of this type can restrict other, equally valid
interpretations.
Have you ever read Dostoeyvsky's (SP??) "Brothers Karamazoff"?? Several
publishers print this book, but Every Man's Library has footnotes throughout
with tidbits of obscure knowledge about the author that have a restrictive
effect that would have not otherwise occurred without the pertinent
information.
>
> Don't songs endure because they contain within themselves a richness and
> suggestiveness that spans personal experience and touches many people.
That is kind of what I'm trying to say....
Everybody has a different "style". What is important to remember is that
often times we have success in spite of our style than because of it. Are
their not many ways for individuals to relate to and interpret similar
things they come across in daily life??
In either case, I appreciate you thoughts on this matter.
Chrisman
Chrisman Dinnan
Chrisman
jack Lazariuk
"Michael S. Connaghan" <mcba...@socket.net> wrote:
> Mother of God! That didn't turn out right. I swear it was smiling when
> I sent it.
Serves you right when all you could think of was a smile.
Jack
~~- __.--~~ _/ | \
~~~ /\ \_ -._ \
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(
jack Lazariuk
~~- __.--~~ _/ | \
~~~ /\ \_ -._ \
--.__ __.--~~ __.-----~ ~-._ ~-._~~-. |
__ ~~ _.-~ ~~-._ ~\ \
~~~~---.___.---~_.- ~-._ \ |
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| \ ; | / `';;;, |~
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~-._ ~-._ _______________.-~ / ) /(
~-._ ~~--._ | |
Mark Barker
own. It becomes amiable to interpretations outside even those of the
creator.
Yep. Exactly. It stands alone, or at least that is my opinion. Can I be in your
movie?
Peace,
Mark
jack Lazariuk
Mark Barker <eras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Sometimes, after an artistic work is completed, it takes on a life of its
> own. It becomes amiable to interpretations outside even those of the
> creator.
In Book of Mercy it sounds like Leonard is giving permission when he
says "Take these words of mine and change them into truth"
Jack
jack Lazariuk
> Sometimes, after an artistic work is completed, it takes on a life of its
> own. It becomes amiable to interpretations outside even those of the
> creator.
>
> Yep. Exactly. It stands alone, or at least that is my opinion. Can I be in
> your
> movie?
Because it becomes amiable to interpretations doesn't mean it stands
alone.
Jack
Mark Barker
was copied and pasted from Chrisman's post.
Mark
Chrisman Dinnan
work of art, not unlike a child, grows, stands on its own, and eventually
leaves the protected environment of home and stands alone in this world.
Chrisman
jack Lazariuk
Mark Barker <eras...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Actually I didn't write that line, though I am in agreement with it. That line
> was copied and pasted from Chrisman's post.
>
I know I made a point about standing on it's own.
Jack
jack Lazariuk
Chrisman Dinnan <broc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Very cool. Conrad, in one of his forwards indicates the same thing. The
> work of art, not unlike a child, grows, stands on its own, and eventually
> leaves the protected environment of home and stands alone in this world.
Your a Conrad reader? me too
I am not too sure about the standing alone in the world and I have to
apologise for misquoting leonard. He wrote "Do not let the words be
mine, but change them into truth" The feel of it is that we are given an
openness by his sharing with us his prayer.
Jack
Michael S. Connaghan
Mike
jack Lazariuk <Laza...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:Lazariuk-690184...@news1.sshe1.sk.home.com...
jack Lazariuk
Can't see the forest for the trees? I have tons of these. want any? any
special occasion that you want expressed?
Jack
bvandyk
> > "Bill Van Dyk" <bvand...@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:3AFB40AD...@home.com...
> >
> > As the resident objectivist I must chime in....
> > I have always felt that the view that song means whatever you take it to
> > mean,
> > however it makes you feel, whatever you see in it at the moment, is the
> > very
> > definition of "casual" listener. This is a way of listening that requires
> > minimum effort and which, in my view, most minimizes the achievement of
> > the
> > artist.
>
> The artist, in this case Mr. Cohen, has achieved much more than just writing
> a song, don't you think?? A work of art can inspire creativity and thought
> in others that may not have otherwise occurred, is this not so?? Might this
> inspiration be the real achievement of the artist??
>
No-- I would say that is the achievement of the others.
My point is kind of at the heart of this though-- if it doesn't matter what the
artist originally intended, then any song will do and there is nothing special
about Mr. Cohen's work---- just the odd coincidence that of all the random
grapplings and couplings of words phrases and notes on the planet, this
particular selection has affected a number of people in similar ways.
If the song only means what the listener thinks it means, then no credit is due
Mr. Cohen-- he has inspired us by accident.
> If this is so, then could it not also be so that to listen in an uninformed
> or "casual" manner might lead to a less restrictive interpretation than that
> of one who was more informed and actually knew a little more about the
> artist, his history, themes, etc...
If you want unrestrictive interpretation then you certainly wouldn't want
anything to do with my approach to music. But do I really have to defend the
idea that the more you know about an artist or the song, the more you will enjoy
it-- if it really is any good at all, of course?
> So here we have an example where one of the achievements of the artist is to
> inspire thought and that, in *some* cases, not knowing may actually maximize
> the artists achievement in this regard.
My problem with this is that it opens the door to saying that someone like Rod
McKeun or Helen Steiner Rice is a great poet. How would you know if they were
not, if their works are validated by the feelings and instinctive
interpretations of their readers?
Granted, a lot of people believe they are great poets. I have no means of
resisting these people unless I am able to argue that a poem has real value
because of what it brings to us-- not what we bring to it.
> Some might even argue that to truly recognize
> the achievement of the artist, one must know nothing of said artist.
I would say that goes too far, though there's a point to that. I heard the song
"Suzanne" before I knew anything about Cohen or Montreal or the brand of tea. I
thought it was a magnificent, amazing song. Not because I could find some
person in my own life who had made me feel about her the way the singer feels
about Suzanne, or because I knew Jesus personally, or because I had ever stepped
on children in the seaweed-- I didn't reinterpret the song to make it correspond
more closely to my own personal experiences. The song worked because Cohen
succeeded in taking his ideas, experiences, thoughts, and feelings, and crafting
them into a magnificent expression that transported his ideas, experiences,
thoughts, and feelings to others. The idea of Jesus watching from a wooden
tower, phrased just in that way, and coming hard on the heals of Suzanne's
hospitality (rich in implication), was stunning to me, who, having sat through
one too many "Jesus" movies, at that time, had rejected the idea of that any
serious artistic expression could ever use the image of Jesus Christ.
> Also, the knowledge of this type can restrict other, equally valid
> interpretations.
I just flat out disagree. I don't see diverse interpretations as being
"equally" valid. They might be fun and interesting and gratifying in a
personal way, but it's like saying that everybody in a running race ran equally
well. Sure they did.
> Have you ever read Dostoeyvsky's (SP??) "Brothers Karamazoff"?? Several
> publishers print this book, but Every Man's Library has footnotes throughout
> with tidbits of obscure knowledge about the author that have a restrictive
> effect that would have not otherwise occurred without the pertinent
> information.
I agree with your feeling about that. The bible itself is the worst offender.
Every page of many versions (the Harper Study Bible is one of hte worst
offenders) is loaded with "instructions" on how to read the text. The editors
ought to fulfill their real mad desires and expungn the text entirely and
replace it with their comments.
But, I read "Brothers Karamazov" and loved it, and then "The Possessed" and
"Notes from Undersground", and then, about that time, I started reading about
Dostoevsky's life and Russian history. Is it helpful to know he was involved,
at one time, in a revolutionary movement, or that he was marched up to the front
of a firing squad and was sure he was going to die? You bet. But the works
stand on their own.
I'm not arguing that you need an "interpreter" to read or hear a poem. I'm
arguing that there is an interpretation or meaning that is bound to the work
itself, and is not limited to your own experiences, but comes from the work, and
it is something the author put into it, not something you imagined as the result
of a random sequence of words.
> Everybody has a different "style". What is important to remember is that
> often times we have success in spite of our style than because of it.
Well.... wouldn't you say the Cohen's style was successful, rather than that he
was successful in spite of his style? n either case, I appreciate you thoughts
on this matter.
And I yours.
By the way, we've had a run through this discussion before. If I remember
correctly, most of the members of the NG would agree with you.
Bruce W. Waren
"m.p" <me...@ilhawaii.net> wrote in message
news:7JhK6.147$iC1....@news6.giganews.com...
>
>
> ----------
> In article <B71EAEED.986B%broc...@earthlink.net>,
> Chrisman Dinnan <broc...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> > "...And I lift my glass to the awful truth, which you can't
> > reveal to the
> > ears of youth, accept to say it isn't worth a damm..."
> >
> as
> > cool. As of
> > right now, it's my favorite Cohen song.
> >
> > Any comments on this song?? I'd like to share insights with
> > anyone who
> > enjoys it as much as I do.
> >
> >
> > Chrisman
> >
>
>
> burning ice kind of feeling.
>
> right now i particularly like the snippets:
>
>
> So we struggle and we stagger
> down the snakes and up the ladder
> to the tower where the blessed hours chime
> And I swear it happened just like this:
> a sigh, a cry, a hungry kiss
> the Gates of Love they budged an inch
> I can't say much has happened since
> but closing time
>
>
> And the whole damn place goes crazy twice
> and it's once for the Devil and it's once for Christ
But Ross Perot don't like these dizzy heights....
> we're busted in the blinding lines
> of closing time
>
>
> Melia
>
>
>
Michael S. Connaghan
what it is. It's not pornography, is it? Well, whatever it is it looks
like it took a long time to do, so thanks.news:Lazariuk-690304...@news1.sshe1.sk.home.com...
jack Lazariuk
"Michael S. Connaghan" <mcba...@socket.net> wrote:
> No really, Jack. What is it? I don't know if I want any until I know
> what it is. It's not pornography, is it? Well, whatever it is it looks
> like it took a long time to do, so thanks.
Are you viewing in a fixed-width font such as Monaco or Courier?
Jack
Michael S. Connaghan
see two people kissing. This isn't a rohrshach test, is it? I scared
some poor psychologist half to death the last time I took one oif those.
While I'm here I'd like to wish you a happy 51st birthday, Jack.news:Lazariuk-E60FCF...@news1.sshe1.sk.home.com...
Chrisman Dinnan
> From: bvandyk <bva...@christian-horizons.org>
> Newsgroups: alt.music.leonard-cohen
> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 16:13:02 -0400
> Subject: Re: Closing Time...
>>
>> The artist, in this case Mr. Cohen, has achieved much more than just writing
>> a song, don't you think?? A work of art can inspire creativity and thought
>> in others that may not have otherwise occurred, is this not so?? Might this
>> inspiration be the real achievement of the artist??
>>
>
> No-- I would say that is the achievement of the others.
It certainly is your prerogative to say and think what you believe. Just as
it is mine to disagree.
Let me say for the record that in my way of thinking (flawed though it may
be) inspiring others is among the chief goals of the artist. How many
artists do you know??? Ever ask one of them???
>
> My point is kind of at the heart of this though-- if it doesn't matter what
> the
> artist originally intended, then any song will do and there is nothing special
> about Mr. Cohen's work----
Art is not an instruction booklet that loses it's value when the object for
which it was written as been discarded. Rather, art, is open to many
interpretations, even those outside of the artist. That's part of what
makes it art.
Don't get me wrong, intentions of the artist can be and often times are
important, but just *how* important seems to be at the heart of our
disagreement.
According to this type of thinking, if I don't know anything special about
Kafka's intentions when he wrote "The Castle" then it was just another
book?? No different from Tolsoy's "War and Peace" or Dotoyevsky's "Crime
and Punishment" or Steven Kings "The Green Mile".
Or could it be that, as I've indicated previously, sometimes we may derive
pleasure from a sort of blissful ignorance of the intentions of the artist
and become enraptured in his/her creation.
And if this is so, is it not possible that this enraptured enjoyment is a
higher compliment to the creator?? To have ones work place above ones self
is a much more lofty goal, don't you think??
I only ask that you recognize this as a possibility...
>
> If the song only means what the listener thinks it means, then no credit is
> due
> Mr. Cohen-- he has inspired us by accident.
I disagree with this. I find this to be an oversimplistic explanation and
as such I am prompted to ask the following:
Do you consider yourself a creative person?? What do you create??
Are you an engineer??
Have you ever inspired anyone by accident???
Was it an accident when Mr. Cohen sat down and penned the words
"...and I lift my glass to the awful truth, which you can't reveal to the
ears of youth, accept to say it isn't worth a dime..."
Of course not. Rather, it was the work of an inspired and talented
individual.
Now my question to you is, how much *exactly* do I need to know about Mr.
Cohen, his past, his upbringing, his thoughts on various matters, etc. to be
inspired by that particular passage?? Or that particular song??
Notice that I am not indicating that such knowledge is not valuable, nor am
I indicating that such knowledge does not lend itself to, perhaps, a fuller,
or at least a different understanding. What I am saying is that there is
more than one way to skin a cat. Ergo, there is more than one way to be
inspired, more than one way to come to an understanding, more than one way
to derive enjoyment.
I would much rather hear your insights than debate issues in which no
victory will ever be found. You obviously know much more about Mr. Cohen
and his work than I. I do not dispute this, or the fact that this knowledge
has contributed to *your* greater enjoyment of his work.
In fact, I'm here to exchange ideas and learn more, so in a small way, I'm
making your point for you...
>
>
>> If this is so, then could it not also be so that to listen in an uninformed
>> or "casual" manner might lead to a less restrictive interpretation than that
>> of one who was more informed and actually knew a little more about the
>> artist, his history, themes, etc...
>
> If you want unrestrictive interpretation then you certainly wouldn't want
> anything to do with my approach to music.
I'm interested in many different approaches to music, yours included, but
not *exclusively* yours.
> But do I really have to defend the
> idea that the more you know about an artist or the song, the more you will
> enjoy
> it-- if it really is any good at all, of course?
You wouldn't have to defend at all if you said something like:
"Often times, when one gains knowledge of an artist, it adds to the
overall enjoyment and pleasure of his/her work"
That statement is accurate and it recognizes, in a round about way, that
there are indeed other ways to enjoy music.
After all, does not the individual determine what and how he/she will derive
the most enjoyment out of a work of art???
>
>
>> So here we have an example where one of the achievements of the artist is to
>> inspire thought and that, in *some* cases, not knowing may actually maximize
>> the artists achievement in this regard.
>
> My problem with this is that it opens the door to saying that someone like Rod
> McKeun or Helen Steiner Rice is a great poet.
To be honest I'm not familiar with their works. Not yet anyway...
>How would you know if they were
> not, if their works are validated by the feelings and instinctive
> interpretations of their readers?
How would I know?? How does one *know* anything?? Do you think that this
type of knowledge can come from anywhere accept form within??
Isn't that part of the reason that we are all here?
> Granted, a lot of people believe they are great poets. I have no means of
> resisting these people unless I am able to argue that a poem has real value
> because of what it brings to us-- not what we bring to it.
And in your opinion these are separate issues??? Interesting. You seem to
be very concrete in your thinking, I'm sure we could learn allot from one
another.
It seems as if we have quite different interpretations of what it is to be
involved in the creative process and what the end goals of such a process
truly are.
>
>
>> Also, the knowledge of this type can restrict other, equally valid
>> interpretations.
>
> I just flat out disagree. I don't see diverse interpretations as being
> "equally" valid.
That is at the heart of your 'problem'. Only interpretations coming from a
base of knowledge similar to your own would be equally valid right?
Good strategy if one is defending one's point of view. Bad strategy if one
is perusing knowledge.
While I respect your intellect and your 'individualism' whether or not you
recognize interpretations as valid or not is outside the realm of my
control.
Interestingly, it might be more beneficial if we were to actually 'float'
some or our interpretations and compare and contrast them and put our money
where our mouths are.
This may be somewhat difficult due to the differences in our knowledge base,
but I'm sure we could find some passages or songs that we both are familiar
with.
> They might be fun and interesting and gratifying in a
> personal way, but it's like saying that everybody in a running race ran
> equally
> well. Sure they did.
No, it would be more like everyone running a race and one competitor decides
that only those with New Balance shoes can run, and only those whose first
step is with their left foot may compete...
See what happens when an individuals preferences become the groups rules??
>
>> Have you ever read Dostoeyvsky's (SP??) "Brothers Karamazoff"?? Several
>> publishers print this book, but Every Man's Library has footnotes throughout
>> with tidbits of obscure knowledge about the author that have a restrictive
>> effect that would have not otherwise occurred without the pertinent
>> information.
>
> I agree with your feeling about that. The bible itself is the worst offender.
> Every page of many versions (the Harper Study Bible is one of hte worst
> offenders) is loaded with "instructions" on how to read the text. The editors
> ought to fulfill their real mad desires and expungn the text entirely and
> replace it with their comments.
>
> But, I read "Brothers Karamazov" and loved it, and then "The Possessed" and
> "Notes from Undersground", and then, about that time, I started reading about
> Dostoevsky's life and Russian history. Is it helpful to know he was involved,
> at one time, in a revolutionary movement, or that he was marched up to the
> front
> of a firing squad and was sure he was going to die? You bet. But the works
> stand on their own.
Excessive consciousness is a disease....
>
> I'm not arguing that you need an "interpreter" to read or hear a poem. I'm
> arguing that there is an interpretation or meaning that is bound to the work
> itself, and is not limited to your own experiences, but comes from the work,
> and
> it is something the author put into it, not something you imagined as the
> result
> of a random sequence of words.
How could one possible dispute that there are meanings bound by the artist
to the work?? Of course this is not disputable.
What is disputable, however, is to what extent these bound meanings should
influence personal interpretations.
Are we not in agreement that the work of art often times takes on a life of
its own and a such becomes open to translations outside the creators
intent?? Isn't that part of what art is all about??
I've made movies and thought I was sending a particular message, only to
find out that the message received by my audience was a completely different
one. Does this make everyone in the audience who interpreted the stimulus
(my film) differently than I, the creator, wrong?? Of course it does not.
>
>> Everybody has a different "style". What is important to remember is that
>> often times we have success in spite of our style than because of it.
>
> Well.... wouldn't you say the Cohen's style was successful, rather than that
> he
> was successful in spite of his style?
I was speaking of you and I. I believe truth is a monolith that stands just
outside of our conceptualization and that among the first steps to
recognizing this truth is the recognition of how little we truly know.
But what do I know...:)
>
> By the way, we've had a run through this discussion before. If I remember
> correctly, most of the members of the NG would agree with you.
You represent yourself quite well and it is not easy to engage in the old
'back-and-forth' with someone as well informed as you.
I look forward to further dialogue in The Future.
Chrisman
Mark Barker
"among the first steps to
recognizing this truth is the recognition of how little we truly know"
Right on! Thus far, I have thoroughly enjoyed your posts, Chrisman. I'm glad you
found the ng. Now I am wondering, how many of Cohen's records are you familiar with?
Peace,
Mark
Valerie Shertzman
artist has something in mind when art is created, that the
truth of art is what it engenders in the viewers.
When I look at a painting it isn't only the skill of the
artist in laying down paint that impresses me but the
feelings I get from it.
I look at Monet's "The Japanese Bridge" and feel warm and
enticed to walk into the painting. Does it matter that he
was going blind from cataracts? Not to me! The feelings I
get from that painting are no different now than they were
before I had that knowledge.
Looking at Van Gogh's "Entrance to the Public Gardens in
Arles" I get the same feeling of wanting to enter the
painting. Was it painted before or after he cut off his
ear, was it after his insanity took over? Does it matter?
Not to me!
What of the feelings I get when I hear "Ode to Joy". Am I
less or more apt to love the work because Beethoven wrote it
after he had become totally deaf and was experiencing bouts
of depression. Do I have to know any of this to enjoy this
piece? No.
My knowledge of the artists feelings has bearing on the way
feel about them as artists. I respect them more for what
they have overcome to produce beauty but the beauty is mine
to take in in my own way. A child with no knowledge of art
can love the works of the masters.
Must I know what Mozart was thinking or Bach or Beethoven to
differentiate between their music? I do know I love
Beethoven's music Bach's to a lesser extent and Mozart least
of all, because of how their music makes me feel. The same
with artists, I don't know what Monet, or Van Gogh or
Rembrandt was thinking when I make the decision that I love
the works of the first two and the latter leaves me cold.
I was drawn to the music of Leonard Cohen because of what
and how it made me feel. I was satisfied with that for
years. I had 1 book of his poetry (actually a compilation
of several books) and 5 8-tracks. That was sufficient to me
until I stumbled onto the ng (well I had traded the 8-tracks
for cassettes and now CDs). I have to say that after all
the research gone into on this board the only thing that has
changed my feelings about any of his songs is my life
experience.
Valerie
"Chrisman Dinnan" <broc...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:B7280623.A892%broc...@earthlink.net...
Chrisman Dinnan
Thanks for the kind words!!
I'm not familiar with as many as I'd like to be that's for sure. Compared
to many here I'm very much an infant in the Cohen community. I'm listening
to "The Future" allot right now, and I've got a few others, including some
compilation tapes my buddy made for me...
I'd like to see a list of Mr. Cohen's collective works, then I could check
them off the list as I acquired them.
How about you, have you been a fan for a long time?? How were you
originally introduced to Mr. Cohen's work?? Do you have a favorite song or
record??
Chrisman
> From: Mark Barker <eras...@mindspring.com>
> Organization: MindSpring Enterprises
> Newsgroups: alt.music.leonard-cohen
> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:12:21 -0400
> Subject: Re: Closing Time...
>
Mark Barker
remember exactly when or how I was introduced to his work, but suspect it was via
hearing someone sing one or more of his songs. I've heard many singers and
songwriters through the years in various venues.
I have all his records except the last one,... "Field Commander Cohen". I will
have it eventually, but have just not got around to buying it yet. As far as
favorite record or song, that's a hard one. It would be one of four records. "I'm
Your Man", "Various Positions", "The Future" or an early record that I always forget
the title of,....maybe "Songs of " or something like that. It has "Chelsea Hotel",
"Famous Blue Raincoat", "Suzanne", and several other classics on it. Unlike most of
these other ng fans, I also like "Death Of A Ladies Man" a lot,....almost as much as
the others I mentioned. Favorite song? Impossible.
Anyway, hope you hang around a while. People come and go from here,.. and then
come back again. It's fun. BTW, were you aware LC has a brand new studio record on
it's way before too long? I'm really looking forward to it.
Take care,
Mark
Sue Winterbottom
sitting naked, not sure if from the back or the front. In between - who
knows? I call it 'Candle in the Wind 3'
jack Lazariuk <Laza...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:Lazariuk-690184...@news1.sshe1.sk.home.com...
Sue Winterbottom
S.
Sue Winterbottom
Michael S. Connaghan <mcba...@socket.net> wrote in message
news:tg2n3nt...@corp.supernews.com...
>I saw it sort of like Monty Python's "Lumberjack"
> routine with sailors rather than Mounties singing the chorus.
something very much like that (though not until you pointed it out!). A
good demonstration of Chrisman's point - the reader completes the
picture.
Sailors in cardigans though, gotta be.
S.
Bill Van Dyk
It would require a book-length discussion to really sort out, but I am not saying
that you need to research any work of art before you can appreciate it.
The issue is whether anyone should bother trying to understand what Cohen meant with
"Suzanne", for example, or just say, well, "to me" it means whatever. If someone
feels that the lady of the harbour is a prostitute, and that's what it means to him,
well, that is just as valid as believing that it refers to a statue on a church in
the Montreal harbour.
I don't buy it for one reason alone: if this is true, then you really can't say
that any particular artist is any better than any other. You really can't because
there is no way to judge. And, actually, that's pretty post-modern, so, hey, maybe
I should just get with it.
But, hey, Mark-- surprised to find yourself in camp with the post-moderns? I am.
Thought you'd be defending the Harold Bloom literary Canon or something...
The bottom-line question for me is, as always, which is more *interesting*?
thanks for your thoughts,
Jack Lazariuk
"Sue Winterbottom" <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> nearly forgot - happy birthday from me too!
> S.
>
nearly forgot to read this post. Thanks
Jack
Sue Winterbottom
> I look at Monet's "The Japanese Bridge" and feel warm and
> enticed to walk into the painting. Does it matter that he
> was going blind from cataracts? Not to me! The feelings I
> get from that painting are no different now than they were
> before I had that knowledge.
Isn't this pretty much the point Bill was making when he said:
>The idea of Jesus watching from a wooden
>tower, phrased just in that way, and coming hard on the heals of
Suzanne's
>hospitality (rich in implication), was stunning to me, who, having sat
through
>one too many "Jesus" movies, at that time, had rejected the idea of
that any
>serious artistic expression could ever use the image of Jesus Christ.
- the image had the impact it did because of the way his mind was
already prepared to receive it by his own (dare we say subjective?)
experience. Cohen did his bit - but so did Bill. This is how I
personally think this lovely argument should be resolved.
And I do admire Bill for being able to argue all positions
simultaneously in the way that he does.
Regards,
Sue
Valerie Shertzman <scv...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:mOxM6.8404$Az.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Bill Van Dyk
> And I do admire Bill for being able to argue all positions
> simultaneously in the way that he does.
>
What do you mean? I am almost always consistent most of the time.
Michael S. Connaghan
Bill's view that you have to understand poetry to appreciate it
strikes me as being more elitist than objectivist.
Mike
Sue Winterbottom <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9dui0h$746$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Michael S. Connaghan
time getting out of that one room full of Renoir at the Art Institute.
My first album was Live Songs. I was playing guitar in clubs around
St. Louis in the early seventies, we didn't have date rape drugs back
then, but with the right girls the song Suzanne use to work just as well.
Don't worry about Bill, Chrisman, he's a weenie. Keep up the good
work kid!
Mike
AXA <AXA_m...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:9dug2...@edrn.newsguy.com...
> In article <B728203A.A89F%broc...@earthlink.net>, Chrisman says...
> >
> >Hello Mark!!
> >
> >Thanks for the kind words!!
>
>
> >
> >I'm not familiar with as many as I'd like to be that's for sure.
Compared
> >to many here I'm very much an infant in the Cohen community. I'm
listening
> >to "The Future" allot right now, and I've got a few others, including
some
> >compilation tapes my buddy made for me...
> >
> >I'd like to see a list of Mr. Cohen's collective works, then I could
check
> >them off the list as I acquired them.
>
should find
> all of the commercial releases there. Look at Jarkko's site
> http://www.leonardcohenfiles.com for a comprehensive list of all the
releases
> including the bootlegs.
>
>
> >
> >How about you, have you been a fan for a long time??
>
story :
>
> In the late fall / early winter of 1969 ( end of November ), after a day
of
> mescaline visions while wandering around at the Art Institute and the
Museum of
> Contemporary Art in Chicago, I was coming down, smoking some hash, and
went out
> looking for some new music. I think I went to get Blind Faith and while I
was
> looking for it I came across Songs From A Room.
>
> The photograph on the back cover caught my attention. I thought something
like
> "What's this ? I want to live in a room like that, with a girl like that
> wrapped in a towel like that sitting at a typewriter smiling at me like
that. I
> want to live in a room with an old table topped with a bud vase
chessboard and
> a skull , and with a nice low bed nearby. Hmmm. I wonder what this
music is
> like ?"
>
> When I got home I put it on the turntable and drifting, I took another
step
> towards the types of rooms I would always live in.
>
> AXA
>
> >How were you
> >originally introduced to Mr. Cohen's work?? Do you have a favorite song
or
> >record??
> >
> >
> >
> >Chrisman
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Sue Winterbottom
Bill Van Dyk <bva...@christian-horizons.org> wrote in message
news:3B02E7B7...@christian-horizons.org...
fayl...@hotmail.com
two-bits, but i haven't the time now
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
faylasoof
Michael S. Connaghan
flamingoes, friends of mine from Miami, I had on a black and white
checked sport coat that Belushi gave me.news:9dv5c...@edrn.newsguy.com...
> In article <tg5rn5k...@corp.supernews.com>, "Michael says...
> >
> >Hey man, I'm pretty sure I was on that same trip.
>
had
> faces which looked like insects, lizards, toads, frogs, birds, raccoons,
> moles, ferrets, rats or mice ?
>
> AXA
Bill Van Dyk
I used to work more formally in this area (aesthetics) and old habits die hard. After
re-reading my own posts, I realized there is no particular need to sell any point of
view. Bottom line, as Chrisman said, is that what is interesting here is the actual
discussion of the songs anyway. But...
How does it affect, for example, Brian Trehearne's fascinating comments on "brokenness"
in Cohen? Is it interesting to me because it seems absolutely what Cohen intended in
his work, or because that's what Brian's personal response is to Cohen's work? To me,
it's more satisfying if it's both, and Brian's response IS what Cohen intended: a
heightened awareness of how humans confront brokenness in the world, and seek healing
and wholeness, or the "light" that gets in.
I really just don't find it very satisfying to think that the impact of a work of art
has little to do with what the artist intended. How then would you know that Cohen is
any different from those "lousy little poets"? What's the difference between the
response to Britney Spears' new novel and Beautiful Losers, other than personal
feelings? I guess you could say then that Cohen really isn't any better or worse--
nobody is better or worse. We either like an artist or not.
Chrisman Dinnan
Hey AXA,
Thanks for the link. I went to cdnow.com and checked it out, there is still
plenty of Mr. Cohen that I've not heard.
I loved your story!! Sound like a great way to spend some time at a museum,
so much stimulus!! So much mescaline!!!
I gotta be up front, I'm a real pup, as I wasn't even born in 1969!!
I first heard Mr. Cohen's work in the film by Oliver Stone "Natural Born
Killer" if memory serves, there are two songs by him in that film. I kept
on trying to find out who it was, nobody new, then I finally came across the
sound track to the film, saw that it was some guy named Leonard Cohen. What
the heck, I bought a tape, and popped it in.
I was in no way prepared for the power of his lyrics. WOW!!!
Chrisman
> I know you weren't asking me but I'll take this opportunity to offer my story
> :
>
> In the late fall / early winter of 1969 ( end of November ), after a day of
> mescaline visions while wandering around at the Art Institute and the Museum
> of
> Contemporary Art in Chicago, I was coming down, smoking some hash, and went
> out
> looking for some new music. I think I went to get Blind Faith and while I was
> looking for it I came across Songs From A Room.
>
> The photograph on the back cover caught my attention. I thought something
> like
> "What's this ? I want to live in a room like that, with a girl like that
> wrapped in a towel like that sitting at a typewriter smiling at me like that.
> I
> want to live in a room with an old table topped with a bud vase chessboard
> and
> a skull , and with a nice low bed nearby. Hmmm. I wonder what this music is
> like ?"
>
> When I got home I put it on the turntable and drifting, I took another step
> towards the types of rooms I would always live in.
>
> AXA
>
Chrisman Dinnan
I'm still very interested in your thought on Mr. Cohen's work and I hope
that our differences in methodology does not prohibit future discussion on
Mr. Cohen's work.
I'm hear to learn, and in the process, maximize my pleasure of Mr. Cohen's
work. That was part of your point, and it was not lost on me.
Chrisman
> From: Bill Van Dyk <bva...@christian-horizons.org>
> Newsgroups: alt.music.leonard-cohen
> Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:52:00 -0400
> Subject: Re: Closing Time...
>
Sue Winterbottom
my story :
>
> In the late fall / early winter of 1969 ( end of November ), after a
day of
> mescaline visions while wandering around at the Art Institute and the
Museum of
> Contemporary Art in Chicago, I was coming down, smoking some hash,
and went out
> looking for some new music. I think I went to get Blind Faith and
while I was
> looking for it I came across Songs From A Room.
>
> The photograph on the back cover caught my attention. I thought
something like
> "What's this ? I want to live in a room like that, with a girl like
that
> wrapped in a towel like that sitting at a typewriter smiling at me
like that. I
> want to live in a room with an old table topped with a bud vase
chessboard and
> a skull , and with a nice low bed nearby. Hmmm. I wonder what this
music is
> like ?"
>
> When I got home I put it on the turntable and drifting, I took
another step
>
> AXA
>
roll out those memories...
I first heard Songs of... at Dolaucothi, South Wales in around
1971. We were excavating an early fort built by the Roman army to
protect its gold mining operations there. We were camping out in an old
farmhouse and we played it continually (probably other stuff too - but
that's all I remember). And one Sunday morning in among the hangovers,
someone saying "Leonard Cohen sounds just like I feel". The next summer
we were back again and it was Neil Young's 'Harvest': different sound,
same corned beef hash, same route back from the pub through the wet
grass, in ones and twos,
"the night above the dingle starry..."
My friend Lynda was not a bad guitar player and when she sang Master
Song and got to
"...to the music of rubber bands"
she always used to stress it in such a way that we had to laugh.
Never
Only
Something
Trivial
Also
Life
Giving
I think so
Anyway
"....though I sang in my chains like the sea."
Michael S. Connaghan
to save it for you. Sorry.news:9dvbh...@edrn.newsguy.com...
> In article <tg6alk4...@corp.supernews.com>, "Michael says...
> >
> >Yes! I was one of the lizards, I was with a pair of beautiful lesbian
> >flamingoes, friends of mine from Miami, I had on a black and white
> >checked sport coat that Belushi gave me.
> >Mike
>
>
> So very sorry, but I don't remember you and I would certainly have
remembered
> such a wonderful encounter. It reminds me very much of the colorful nest
I
> found myself roosting in while living at Venice Beach.
>
> In fact, no doubt, had we met then we'd have been friends all these long
years.
> I think we would have comfortably humored each other in our hobbies and
> delusions. I think we would have shared many a bowl of the sweet weed.
>
> AXA
>
Michael S. Connaghan
Another day, another bowl.news:9e23s...@edrn.newsguy.com...
> In article <tg84v2n...@corp.supernews.com>, "Michael says...
> >
> >Without a doubt. I'm smoking your half of a bowl right now. I tried
> >to save it for you. Sorry.
> >Mike
>
>
> AXA
Chrisman Dinnan
> From: AXA <AXA_m...@newsguy.com>
> Organization: Extra Newsguy News Service [http://extra.newsguy.com]
> Newsgroups: alt.music.leonard-cohen
> Date: 17 May 2001 20:28:40 -0700
> Subject: Re: Closing Time...
>
> In article <B7293376.A8F1%broc...@earthlink.net>, Chrisman says...
>>
>>
>> Hey AXA,
>>
>> Thanks for the link. I went to cdnow.com and checked it out, there is still
>> plenty of Mr. Cohen that I've not heard.
>
> You're welcome. I hope you check out Jarkko's site to, it is really amazing.
Oh Yeah, very informative, very impressive. I've visited at least once a
day since I came to this group.
>
>
>>
>> I loved your story!!
>
> Thanks. It's a good thing you missed my "poetry". ( Your turn to be
> thankful
> ).
We should have a contest to see whose poetry is worse, I'm undefeated in
this regard. :)
>> Sound like a great way to spend some time at a museum,
>> so much stimulus!! So much mescaline!!!
>
> Well, those were the days ... now ( and for decades ) I only trip about once a
> year just to check and clean out the systems.
Last time I tripped was to Mr. Cohen. I had the house to myself, all my
'stuff' was in order that I would not want for anything that wasn't at my
fingertips, it was pretty great.
Later,
Chrisman
Chrisman Dinnan
> From: Bill Van Dyk <bvand...@home.com>
> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster
> Newsgroups: alt.music.leonard-cohen
> Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 01:39:40 GMT
> Subject: Re: Closing Time...
>
>
> I really just don't find it very satisfying to think that the impact of a work
> of art
> has little to do with what the artist intended. How then would you know that
> Cohen is
> any different from those "lousy little poets"? What's the difference between
> the
> response to Britney Spears' new novel and Beautiful Losers, other than
> personal
> feelings? I guess you could say then that Cohen really isn't any better or
> worse--
> nobody is better or worse. We either like an artist or not.
>
Hey Bill,
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Some of my friends and I have had this
very same discussion, only concerning movies. I mean we have go to be able
to say that "The Godfather" was a better film than "Pretty Woman" with a
reasonable amount of assuredness right?? But from whence does this
assuredness come??
Leonard Cohen is different from those "lousy little poets" I know it, you
know it, everyone here knows it. But why?? Why exactly?? What makes Mr.
Cohen's work stand out as being something more than that of what I will call
'lesser artists' (if there is such a thing)
Part of it is artistic integrity. What that means exactly I really don't
know for sure, but it has to do with the motivations behind the creation,
how this creativity manifests itself and how it is performed.
In my way of thinking, Mr. Cohen's work differs from that of Brittney
Spaniel in all of these ways. In short I simply do not value her work to
the extent that I do Mr. Cohen's because of the way in which she uses her
boobs to get me all 'interested' and then sings me a buble-gum song that
does nothing to stimulate anything above the waistline.
Having said thus, I realize that I'm guilty of making value judgements, and
that there are those who would completely disagree and think that Britney
Spears is the genius. Maybe they are right, who knows. I'm not the one to
say...
If you figure it out let me know.
Chrisman
Bill Van Dyk
would scoff at your comments about Britney-- "oh yeah-- and how many records did Mr.
Cohen sell last year?". The logic, of course, is that if someone is that popular,
she must be very, very good. And Mr. Cohen, therefore, is one of those "lousy
little poets" because, frankly, nobody has heard of him.
The Beatles were remarkable in that sense. Few artists, in their own lifetimes,
have received both popular and critical acclaim on that scale (Dickens, Tolstoy,
Picasso?). I was not a Beatles' fan when I was a kid. I assumed that anyone that
popular-- way up there with The Monkees-- couldn't possibly be very good. I didn't
realize how really brilliant they were. I also ridiculously assumed they would
never enjoy the company of a real artist like Bob Dylan, at the moment that Bob was
turning them on to drugs. The only other artist I can think of who is comparable to
the Beatles is Picasso.
Van Gogh sold one painting in his entire life. One of his paintings recently sold
for $40 million.
Stravinsky's "The Rite of Spring" caused a riot at its' debut. Those sophisticated
Parisians began hurling things at the orchestra.
If you talk to the so-called "average" person in the street, they will probably say
something to the effect of, "I know what I like", and would find it annoying to have
to explain anything about "criteria". Besides, the average man in the street
resents intellectuals-- they are the ones who try to convince him that two different
coloured streaks on a piece of canvas is "art". He knows it's a piece of crap and
the artist is a charlatan. He regards Rockwell as "art".
Actually, 100 years late, he now regards Picasso and Van Gogh as "art", because
their styles have been bowlderized ads and illustrations..
He's not sure why a guy who can't sing (Dylan) got an Oscar for best song.
I used to think it mattered that there should be a reason other than popularity for
thinking an artist is "good". We needed a way to sort out the Bobby Shermans from
the Bobby Dylans. But for all practical purposes, most people don't care if there
is any difference.
Maybe it's because I'm cheap. I don't want to have to throw out my records or CD's
after twenty years. I still have my Dylan and Cohen albums I bought 30 years ago.
Chrisman Dinnan
> From: Bill Van Dyk <bva...@christian-horizons.org>
> Newsgroups: alt.music.leonard-cohen
> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 10:13:15 -0400
> Subject: Re: Closing Time...
>
> This relates to the old thing of popular vs. critically acclaimed. A lot of
> people
> would scoff at your comments about Britney-- "oh yeah-- and how many records
> did Mr.
> Cohen sell last year?". The logic, of course, is that if someone is that
> popular,
> she must be very, very good. And Mr. Cohen, therefore, is one of those "lousy
> little poets" because, frankly, nobody has heard of him.
Oh, believe me, I've had that said to me many times before. I try to come
back with the fact that there are several more Ford Escorts sold each year
than BMW M3's does that make the Escort a better car???
>
> The Beatles were remarkable in that sense. Few artists, in their own
> lifetimes,
> have received both popular and critical acclaim on that scale (Dickens,
> Tolstoy,
> Picasso?)
>I was not a Beatles' fan when I was a kid. I assumed that anyone
> that
> popular-- way up there with The Monkees-- couldn't possibly be very good. I
> didn't
> realize how really brilliant they were. I also ridiculously assumed they
> would
> never enjoy the company of a real artist like Bob Dylan, at the moment that
> Bob was
> turning them on to drugs. The only other artist I can think of who is
> comparable to
> the Beatles is Picasso.
What about Simon and Garfunkle?? Or even the Three Stooges???
>
> Van Gogh sold one painting in his entire life. One of his paintings recently
> sold
> for $40 million.
I've yet to sell any of my films, so the Van Gogh reference is quite close
to my heart. Believe me....
>
> If you talk to the so-called "average" person in the street, they will
> probably say
> something to the effect of, "I know what I like", and would find it annoying
> to have
> to explain anything about "criteria". Besides, the average man in the street
> resents intellectuals-- they are the ones who try to convince him that two
> different
> coloured streaks on a piece of canvas is "art". He knows it's a piece of crap
> and
> the artist is a charlatan. He regards Rockwell as "art".
Lucky for me that nobody has ever considered me to be an intellectual. :)
>
> Actually, 100 years late, he now regards Picasso and Van Gogh as "art",
> because
> their styles have been bowlderized ads and illustrations..
So, maybe in 100 years people will flock to my stuff!!! All you guys can
get in on the ground floor!!
>
> He's not sure why a guy who can't sing (Dylan) got an Oscar for best song.
>
> I used to think it mattered that there should be a reason other than
> popularity for
> thinking an artist is "good". We needed a way to sort out the Bobby Shermans
> from
> the Bobby Dylans. But for all practical purposes, most people don't care if
> there
> is any difference.
>
> Maybe it's because I'm cheap. I don't want to have to throw out my records or
> CD's
> after twenty years. I still have my Dylan and Cohen albums I bought 30 years
> ago.
>
Well said.
Chrisman
Bill Van Dyk
film, or DV?
I actually own a vx2000, though I haven't had time or opportunity to experiment yet.
Bruce W. Waren
codes....
Bruce
"Michael S. Connaghan" <mcba...@socket.net> wrote in message
news:tg9v7ri...@corp.supernews.com...
Michael S. Connaghan
Perfectly legit. 7-10 splifs and all that. Do people bowl in Arkansas?
Mike
Bruce W. Waren <bwa...@cableone.net> wrote in message
news:tgb55o1...@corp.supernews.com...
Fiona Harrington
Fiona.
Jack Lazariuk
Fiona Harrington <lbs...@brunel.ac.uk> wrote:
> It's two people kissing, look again!
If your not using a fixed size font like courier then these things do
not display properly. One should use fixed sized fonts for news and mail.
Jack
Chrisman Dinnan
Just tell me when to shut up because I could go on for a while....
All my films, so far, have been shot on 16mm film. That's gonna change due
to the prohibitive expense that film represents, especially to someone who
has yet to sell anything :) Just to give you an idea, it costs about
$150.00 for ten minutes of film. This does not include the price of
processing, the 300.00 per hour charge of transferring film to video,
syncing audio, etc.
I'm completely independent. I don't know if you are aware, but there is a
huge disparity in what constitutes an independent filmmaker. Some films
have over a million dollar budget, star Harvey Keitel and call themselves
'independent'. Independent has come to mean anything done outside the
Hollywood system, but to me it means doing it 'alone', no financial help, no
star power, just some gear, some actors, and good story.
I have no 'backers' or rich uncles, I had to find a different way. I
forsook my business degree and went to work for a post production facility
where I could get healthy employee discounts that would make it possible to
make my movies. It wasn't my 'ideal' job, but it allowed me to pursue my
dreams, so it was worth it. I made "Zeitgeist" for 1/4 what it would have
cost a 'normal' person.
I've worked on several short films and feature films for others in many
capacities from director, to sound guy, sandwich maker, you name it...
Films that I've written and Directed include "Dead Game" a nine minute
narrative short about loyalty and loyalty betrayed. I'd tell you more about
it, but it's only nine minutes and I don't want to give anything away. I've
been told that it's quite moving and it was received very well at various
film festivals, including the Chicago Underground Film Festival. The plot
was taken from a comic book written by Andrew Vacchs.
"Chapter Eleven" takes a few months in the life of a young college student,
JOHN, who decides he wants to make extra money by getting into investment
properties/Rental houses. The conflict occurs when JOHN's renter gets sick
and JOHN is faced with the decision of kicking them out and making money, or
letting them stay and losing everything. It's a half hour long, and is a
true story. Let's just say I'm no longer in the rental house business...:(
And last but not least "ZEITGEIST" is my first feature length film (85min).
The title "Zeitgeist" is a German word which translates as "Spirit of The
Times" it indicates the general moral, cultural, and intellectual climate
of an era. The theatrical trailer will be available to see in a few weeks
at pitbullfilmworks.com. Don't go their yet, as everything isn't up and
running quite yet. I will let you know when things are ready.
"Zeitgeist" is the film that I hope is going to do some things. I should be
able to sell it and make enough to make another film. I've got two
competing ideas, one has to do with Jesus, the other has to do with
dog-fighting. But that's another story... IF things go well, it will have
its world premier at the Chicago Underground Film Festival in August. All
are welcome to attend.
That about brings you up to speed I guess.
BTW, after you've done some work on your VX-2000 let me know how you like
it. Depending on how some things shake out, I may be interested in getting
one myself.
Chrisman
> From: Bill Van Dyk <bva...@christian-horizons.org>
> Newsgroups: alt.music.leonard-cohen
> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 15:31:27 -0400
> Subject: Re: Closing Time...
>
Bill Van Dyk
INDEPENDENT. Like "Clerks" vs "Happiness".
I made a couple of short films on super 8 in college, for a film course. Can't
say I've ever had as much fun in my life has having 20 people, all volunteers,
coming out to do whatever I asked them to try to make it work. I was amazed at
how generous people can be in that situation-- running through the snow in their
underwear on a bitterly cold day, among other things. It was a blast. I've
been involved in stage plays and other video projects over the years, but never
lost the bug, which is why, when the opportunity presented itself, I jumped at
the VX-2000. Also picked up a couple of first class wireless and boom mics,
and then built a computer system to digitally edit, with Premiere and
Aftereffects and lots of other goodies. The video quality is, without doubt,
outstanding. If I remember correctly, Spike Lee used a VX2000 on a recent
commercially released film-- can't remember the name off-hand, I missed it.
Right now, I'm working on the script for a slight opportunistic little comedy
about a government funded social service agency that goes over-budget the year
the government cracks down. We plan to start taping in the summer. What is fun
is that the digital editing equipment I have is actually capable of some
first-class effects-- if I can ever master it.
I hope you'll keep us posted when you have dates and places for that debut in
Chicago-- I might be able to get down for a look, since I have friends in the
area. And let us know when anything of yours is available through the internet
in some form-- I'd love to have a look.
And I think you gather up the scattered members of "Laboratory of Enthusiastic
Collaboration" and create a film version of Beautiful Losers. But just a wild
and crazy thought....
Chrisman Dinnan
> From: Bill Van Dyk <bvand...@home.com>
> Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster
> Newsgroups: alt.music.leonard-cohen
> Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 16:52:01 GMT
> Subject: Re: Closing Time...
>
> Hey, that sounds really cool. I know what you mean by "independent" vs
> INDEPENDENT. Like "Clerks" vs "Happiness".
YES!!! You'd be surprised at how many do not make the distinction.
>
> I made a couple of short films on super 8 in college, for a film course.
> Can't
> say I've ever had as much fun in my life has having 20 people, all volunteers,
> coming out to do whatever I asked them to try to make it work. I was amazed
> at
> how generous people can be in that situation-- running through the snow in
> their
> underwear on a bitterly cold day, among other things. It was a blast. I've
> been involved in stage plays and other video projects over the years, but
> never
> lost the bug,
Making movies is allot of work, but it's just so much fun. Once it's in
your system it usually stays there.
> which is why, when the opportunity presented itself, I jumped at
> the VX-2000. Also picked up a couple of first class wireless and boom mics,
> and then built a computer system to digitally edit, with Premiere and
> Aftereffects and lots of other goodies. The video quality is, without doubt,
> outstanding. If I remember correctly, Spike Lee used a VX2000 on a recent
> commercially released film-- can't remember the name off-hand, I missed it.
It might have been "Get on the Bus" or "Bamboozled". Can't say for sure,
not a huge Spike Lee fan, but have seen some of his stuff.
It's great when you can capture on a high quality camera like the VX-2000,
fire wire into the computer and WHAM! The stuff you edit will come out
every bit as good as what went in. When I edited "Dead Game" I used the
public access facilities at the local cable station and edited 3/4 inch
video to 3/4 inch video resulting in a huge plunge in quality with every
generation. Allot different now isn't it???
I've got a G4 on which I use Final Cut Pro. I've also heard really nice
things about Premiere and a few others as well.
>
> Right now, I'm working on the script for a slight opportunistic little comedy
> about a government funded social service agency that goes over-budget the year
> the government cracks down. We plan to start taping in the summer. What is
> fun
> is that the digital editing equipment I have is actually capable of some
> first-class effects-- if I can ever master it.
It will come quicker than you think. I had originally edited "Chapter
Eleven" on an old-time flatbed editing machine. Just for kicks I re-edited
on my computer system because, at the time, it made sense to learn a new
process on some familiar footage. I was up and running in no time and you
will be as well.
>
> I hope you'll keep us posted when you have dates and places for that debut in
> Chicago-- I might be able to get down for a look, since I have friends in the
> area. And let us know when anything of yours is available through the
> internet
> in some form-- I'd love to have a look.
Believe me, when I have something to show, nobody will have to ask....
>
> And I think you gather up the scattered members of "Laboratory of Enthusiastic
> Collaboration" and create a film version of Beautiful Losers. But just a wild
> and crazy thought....
>
I've frequented several NG's and I really like the makeup here, it wouldn't
be hard to imagine some sort of collaborative effort coming from this group.
Forgive my ignorance when I ask if "Beautiful Losers" is a song or a book,
etc.
Chrisman
Bill Van Dyk
> be hard to imagine some sort of collaborative effort coming from this group.
> Forgive my ignorance when I ask if "Beautiful Losers" is a song or a book,
> etc.
It's an absolutely brilliant novel. In my humble opinion, one of the greatest
novels of this century, though I'm sure Joyce fans would dispute it. It is
stream-of-consciousness, but focusses on the relationship of the narrator to "F", a
kind of brutal mentor, and the narrator's obsession with Kateri Tekakwitha, the 17th
century Mohawk woman who converted to Catholicism and subsequently died at least
partly due to self-inflicted torments. Last I heard, the church was going to
canonize her.
Actually, too complex to describe in brief-- recommended reading though, if you get
some time.
At the Montreal 2000 Leonard Cohen Event, a group from Arizona (or Los Angeles, or
Connecticut-- they kept moving around) performed a stage version of it. It wasn't
everyone's cup of tea-- very explicit and shocking at times-- but some of us thought
it was absolutely audacious and outstanding. Ira Murfin, Barbara Whitney, and Paul
Wolfe were the actors, and Aaron Kahn directed.
http://www.cohen2000.com/photos02.htm
Someone has optioned the rights-- I think "Milk and Honey" is the name of the
company-- and is supposedly working on a movie version, but there's hasn't been much
noise in that direction in some time.
Tony Bobinski and Jacob Potashniuk were associated with it-- I believe in scripting
it. Last I heard.
Sue Winterbottom
news:lazariuk-220BFF...@news1.sshe1.sk.home.com...
One might if one knew how to change it. No, seriously, I looked (this is
IE5) under font options for news and mail reading and changed the
settings to 'User Defined' putting Courier New down for both fixed and
proportional fonts: previously Arial was down for proportional fonts and
Courier for fixed although in fact everything I read and write appears
in Times NR (and I like it it that way for writing). Now what's happened
is everything has changed to Arial - except the picture which is still
the same (big head etc.)
What are you suggesting Jack, we're dumb?? You had any luck Fiona?
Sue
Sue Winterbottom
Sue Winterbottom <s...@suewinterbottom.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9ebqlm$7v$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
~greg
> Fiona Harrington wrote:
>
> > It's two people kissing, look again!
>
> If your not using a fixed size font like courier then these things do
> not display properly. One should use fixed sized fonts for news and mail.
>
> Jack
No - there are better reasons to view in proportional font most of the time.
Instead, one should know how to switch quickly to fixed font to view text art.
In OE 5.5
first 'Open' the post
( - *NOT* - 'Reply to Group'
or Reply to 'Sender' -
- because those don't have the option.
- nor does 'Opening' from the 'Drafts-folder'
etc - the difference is about view vs edit
settings )
and then click 'View', and then 'Text Size',
and then select 'Fixed' from these choices:
Largest
Larger
Medium
Smaller
Smallest
- - - - - - - -
Fixed
and that's it.
The effect is per-view and instant and dramatic.
-so (sue) try again:
'Open | View | Text Size | Fixed':
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Michael S. Connaghan
Mike
~greg <g...@magpage.com> wrote in message news:9ec6fm$f31$0...@216.155.32.18...
Jack Lazariuk
"Michael S. Connaghan" <mcba...@socket.net> wrote:
> Thanks! I finally get to see that. Great artwork, Jack!
___ _____
.'/,-Y" "~-.
l.Y ^.
/\ _\_ "Doh! Just copied and pasted"
i ___/" "\
| /" "\ o !
l ] o !__./
\ _ _ \.___./ "~\
X \/ \ ___./
( \ ___. _..--~~" ~`-.
` Z,-- / \
\__. ( / ______)
\ l /-----~~" /
Y \ /
| "x______.^
| \
j Y
Jack
Michael S. Connaghan
when you switch to fixed it's as good a Homer S. as if
Matt Groenning himself produced it. Excellent, Jack!
Mikenews:lazariuk-BC81A2...@news1.sshe1.sk.home.com...
Bruce W. Waren
"Jack Lazariuk" <laza...@mac.com> wrote in message
news:lazariuk-BC81A2...@news1.sshe1.sk.home.com...
Pretty good pic of Homer Simpson....
Bruce
Sue Winterbottom
> first 'Open' the post
> ( - *NOT* - 'Reply to Group'
> or Reply to 'Sender' -
> - because those don't have the option.
> - nor does 'Opening' from the 'Drafts-folder'
> etc - the difference is about view vs edit
> settings )
>
> and then click 'View', and then 'Text Size',
> and then select 'Fixed' from these choices:
>
> Largest
> Larger
> Medium
> Smaller
> Smallest
> - - - - - - - -
> Fixed
>
> and that's it.
>
Thank you my friend - indeed it is. Ouch!
S.