Heads up, Yes me again Mr m3a Smart mouth
Dave.
You may have noted my posts regarding m3a files and
"Are all musicians lazy".
Some are offended by this, probably most.
Well that was the point but dont take it personally.
I seek true responses, pleases and thankyou's aside.
I dont want you to endorse this simply have your say against it.
If you have something to put into then that is great but I dont ask
that of you.
I already consulted enough musicians off the Net to determine what was
going in it.
props to RRR crew for this.
I did not post any of these comments or request for comment or
otherwise about m3a to offer it to or sell it to you all.
Nor did I come here to convince you all its a good idea
Not at all.
Call me rude and impatient and perhaps I am a bit with mussos after
the last few days of drilling by the RIAA and the likes of Metallica I
dont feel to much like engratiating myself to mussos, so excuse me.
m3a files will be
exisiting users upgrade as they do and this function will exist for
them to use, I dont ask anyone here to offer it or suggest it, it
helps of course but I dont ask that of anyone here.
opinion.
How much opposition I get to it is the point, not how much it is
accepted.
I am asking you
Why shouldnt I do it
What is wrong with it
Why dont you like it.
If you think "are all musician lazy" is real offensive how will you
feel when these files start appearing around the place and no-one so
much as asked any musicians what they though about it.
That is offensive and I say it becuase I see other who say that.
"We were never consulted or asked and we own the works"
well now your all consulted, jobs done.
Let us not pretend that there is no blood lost between MP3 software
makers like me and mussos whom beleive these MP3 softwares are used to
rip them off.
I appreciate the responses so far, it tells me a lot.
To me it appears no-one has any particularly outstanding opposition to
it, even when pushed to a negative view of it. <g>
Thanks you for your time
Dave
Dave.
<jfr...@sprint.com.au> wrote:
>Dave, I am waaaay sick of your aggressive stance
>and badgering...
I dont mean to be aggressive but beleive me time is not on my side and
patience goes out the window.
I would have liked to spent a lot more time working up to this
discussion and easing people into it, unfortunately this got left till
very late in the works so it is a rush job to get some Q's and answer
them and see what criticism I get on it.
if you took the time to clearly
>and simply explain what it is is your talking
>about, you might get a few more responses.
It is just one of those things
I cant rap it up in a few words and I am not dragging some mystery
here.
It is basic but I have to elaborate on detail to make it mean anything
other than just "a" file of some sort.
I am
>also not convinced that the groups you are posting
>to are necessarily FULL OF MUSICIANS... most
>seem to be music lovers, not musos.
Yeah sure but if there is musicians this is the most likely spot to
start.
I would hunt around but again, time.
>
>Any way, after watching your posts for the last
>few days (you should remember that SOME users may
>not have seen the initial posts, like me, who only
>joined a few days back), I think I finally get it,
>or at least understand what you want to hear from
>us.
This is good
Ask anything beyond what I can describe here and the forum at mp3.com
which outlines more detail.
http://bboard.mp3.com/mp3/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002284.html
or earlier
http://bboard.mp3.com/mp3/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002290.html
>
>
>As a musician, I think that MP3 is a valuable
>tool for any unknown, unsigned, unsupported artist,
>songwriter or band to get their music to a wide
>audience. The sheer volume of MP3s available at
>all the australian music sites, along with band
>homepages making their stuff available is a good
>indication that it is well embraced by 'tomorrow's
>top bands' and the wannabe's.
I'm with you all the way on that.
>
>I think that any software that helped bands push
>more information with their CD (in the form of
>additional information, links, photos, purchase
>information etc etc etc) would be a good thing,
>as it is like the reverse of a website (website
>offers MP3s, MP3 offers web address).
>
>This would be a positive move for MP3-style
>technology, and would be a good evolution of the
>MP3 format for those musicians / bands who choose
>to embrace the MP3 movement.
>
>What SMART bands are doing is offering SOME songs
>in the MP3 format over the web, and then showing
>the users where they can buy the CD.
This is where I beleive this file plays a big part to fill this need.
If we look at it
Fact #1 files are shared
so my point
Why not improve the look of the files that you know will be out of
your control and shared freely so in this form you can provide more
information to the benfit of the person who created the works, not the
bearer.
>
>As a music lover (i hope), you like to listen to
>new songs, you like to sign along, you like to
>hear the new hits, you like to have a 'favorite
>song' or 'favorite band'.
Done lead vocals at a few paid gigs at licensed hotels
can sing
But what you must
>understand is that these recordings cost money --
>a shitload of money -- example: Killing Heidi
>just blew $100K in the studio.
>
>If all music is ripped-ff into digital format
>and distributed without royalty payments to the
>copyright owners (writers) of the songs, music
>will die.
This is right so we work on a middle ground model, a sliding scale if
you like of free V paid for.
>
>If you think it is a good idea to have all music
>as free music... if you think it's okay to copy
>/ burn a CD and sell copies of your favorite
>album to your mates is a good idea, or to rip
>every CD in your collection into MP3s and email
>them to your mates is a good idea, then you will
>find that the whole industry will die.
It is a great idea, its just that artist are not benefitting off that
practice.
You have to kee this definition
the practice of doing it is not bad, its when you cant participate in
the stream of activity that it is bad ofr you, when you sell less CD's
than you would have sold wihout MP3 then this is bad for you.
If you can get a part of the stream you can or as the theory holds,
increase your sales of CDs physically
however if you seek to capitolise, not just off your boosted CD sales,
but from the shear fact works are copied, you also feel you should be
paid for on top of the extra CD sales, then I think the net and MP3
will not return this to you.
More cd sales, yes, I belive it with conviction
A return from all the data that is shared, no and I fell that is the
writing on the wall.
>
>
>Put simply, upcoming musicians will embrace
>ANYTHING to help them get where they want to be,
>but established musicians (with a cd-buying fan
>base) will hate it. How can we be expected to
>invest so much time and money into songwriting
>if we receive no more then a little notoriety.
>
>Sure, it might be cool to be at #1 on mp3.com,
>but it doesn't put a cent into my bank account.
Doesnt now for so many.
It could, or at least the sliding scale "free V paid" could improve in
your favour.
Which I would like to rebuff
How much to give and how much to keep.
If you feed the free end of the scale then you attract more people who
would potentially feed the paid end.
If you give it all away your a poor man/ms
If you keep it all your a lonely man/ms
You have promotional budgeting as an aritst/label
you weigh up how much to spend based on what you think you will get
back.
Promotion is spending on giving it away for free.
Steak knives to Limo ride, whatever it is you offer to promote.
You expect it to represent you with sufficient recognition to, yield a
$return$.
If you spend up big on the right promotion you get a big return on the
scale.
Currently the top acts spend no promotion $ with the MP3 file itself,
the goods all around it that support it yes. millions I bet.
They can spend it on everything, but not the file itself.
This allows you to spend your promotion money on the file itself.
There is a like standard for MP3 files that can do this in each file
BUT
I propose another version of this that doesn't repeat a lot of info
among other differences when a whole set of files are used.
The m3a file can have a full set, but shorter demos with cover art and
artist info and CD page.
Inside the file is the info for that.
>
>
>I don't expect you to understand the hours
>involved in becoming a talented muso, rehearsing
>for months, writing a hit, recording the song,
>marketing the band, pressing the CDs and trying
>to get airplay / make some record sales... but
>you should be able to find a similar problem in
>your work...
I have been in a few studios and I know a few people who were pretty
popular back in the early count down days that do a fair amount of
home studio sessional work.
Ads actually, now that pays, but thats off topic.
>
>Dave... you're a software developer... right?
I am now but not all my life..
>
>You spend months learning a new language, and
>years learning the 'tricks' and best methods to
>achieve the best speed, reliability and performance
>out of your applications. It is a skill, a skill
>that pays your wages.
My software is free.
I have a selling ver with some extra stuff I had to pay to use in it
and I want to do it full time but I dont sell yet.
For wages I have a day job that involves manual labour not software.
>
>Imagine if all software was not protected by
>copyright. Imagine if all software was freely
>distributed, and that you WOULD NOT RECEIVE A CENT.
We define a difference between free and free beer models
There is copyright of course
copyright is not money and money is an entriely different matter and
up to the individual.
Free software has been the begginings of a number of very large
players, it your product is good in time you will get paid, if you
want it all now, well..
>This may be fine for some small app that takes you
>a few hours to whack together, but what if it were
>an essential business tool (like word or excell)
>which every business used.
Or Linux which is an entire operating sytem
free
>
>Sure there might be some personal satisfaction
>in building a successful, stable application, but
>pretty soon your interest in improving the program
>would die off.
Only with your pasion
>
>
>Maybe I don't understand what exactly this software
>offers,
the software offers nothing cause there isnt one
this is a file only, my software makes it but anyone can or will be
able to
See the mp3.com forum links that give some more detail in part
but it sounds like a good deal for music
>listeners, and a bad deal for musos.
I would say of the two, musicians would have to be the ones who gained
more in this perhaps.
It is a relative minor addition to what users do already when the grab
a pile of tracks off an album.
Such a file is widely used to point to MP3 files and that file is an
m3u
This is an enhanced version of that file and is named .m3a on the end
of the file.
If it's too
>bad a deal, you might find that there are no more
>musos.
There will always be mussos but what they get paid and will be
determined by how they approach new technologies, like the Net.
on the Net there are two places you can be, in the dark where you cant
be found or in the light where you are one step away from everyone,
all the need to do is click the mouse.
The file enables a person who would be sharing MP3 files anyway to
have direct access to your site so that removes your chances of being
swamped by like identities or fan sites in search engines
It also provides a direct path to your CD page or the web, in the case
of my app in display of the file parts, there is a web page button and
a purchase CD button, if there path exists then it is offered to the
user.
Look, listen and perhaps purchase.
If you secure this file, they wont use it to share around, waste of
space.
If this file belongs to one not so sharing vendor, they wont use it as
it restricts them to one player or product, no choice.
This is for all those cases where people "will" have your music
already for free but here you get to provide more information with
that free stuff to give them a direct path back to you, and your CD
sales online if they decide to buy or even see what else you have.
>
>I'm keen to understand more about the application,
>but please make the post clear, simple and slowly
>explain what the software will do, and what YOU
>think the implications of it will be to the industry.
>
>
>Do you actually like music?
Yes
I will say after some years in the PA industry lugging boxes for
r/bsuters and the like agency cover bands, I had my doubts, but that
was some time ago and Ive regained my appreciation for all music.
Nice talking
I gotta go and do STUFF
I have a new encoder I am hanging to get fitted up for an overdue
upgrade.
got any Q's, the mail is there to use.
Cheers
Dave.
Justin French
and simply explain what it is is your talking
also not convinced that the groups you are posting
to are necessarily FULL OF MUSICIANS... most
seem to be music lovers, not musos.
Any way, after watching your posts for the last
few days (you should remember that SOME users may
not have seen the initial posts, like me, who only
joined a few days back), I think I finally get it,
or at least understand what you want to hear from
us.
As a musician, I think that MP3 is a valuable
tool for any unknown, unsigned, unsupported artist,
songwriter or band to get their music to a wide
audience. The sheer volume of MP3s available at
all the australian music sites, along with band
homepages making their stuff available is a good
indication that it is well embraced by 'tomorrow's
top bands' and the wannabe's.
I think that any software that helped bands push
more information with their CD (in the form of
additional information, links, photos, purchase
information etc etc etc) would be a good thing,
as it is like the reverse of a website (website
offers MP3s, MP3 offers web address).
This would be a positive move for MP3-style
technology, and would be a good evolution of the
MP3 format for those musicians / bands who choose
to embrace the MP3 movement.
What SMART bands are doing is offering SOME songs
in the MP3 format over the web, and then showing
the users where they can buy the CD.
As a music lover (i hope), you like to listen to
new songs, you like to sign along, you like to
hear the new hits, you like to have a 'favorite
song' or 'favorite band'. But what you must
understand is that these recordings cost money --
a shitload of money -- example: Killing Heidi
just blew $100K in the studio.
If all music is ripped-ff into digital format
and distributed without royalty payments to the
copyright owners (writers) of the songs, music
will die.
If you think it is a good idea to have all music
as free music... if you think it's okay to copy
/ burn a CD and sell copies of your favorite
album to your mates is a good idea, or to rip
every CD in your collection into MP3s and email
them to your mates is a good idea, then you will
find that the whole industry will die.
Put simply, upcoming musicians will embrace
ANYTHING to help them get where they want to be,
but established musicians (with a cd-buying fan
base) will hate it. How can we be expected to
invest so much time and money into songwriting
if we receive no more then a little notoriety.
Sure, it might be cool to be at #1 on mp3.com,
but it doesn't put a cent into my bank account.
I don't expect you to understand the hours
involved in becoming a talented muso, rehearsing
for months, writing a hit, recording the song,
marketing the band, pressing the CDs and trying
to get airplay / make some record sales... but
you should be able to find a similar problem in
your work...
Dave... you're a software developer... right?
You spend months learning a new language, and
years learning the 'tricks' and best methods to
achieve the best speed, reliability and performance
out of your applications. It is a skill, a skill
that pays your wages.
Imagine if all software was not protected by
copyright. Imagine if all software was freely
distributed, and that you WOULD NOT RECEIVE A CENT.
This may be fine for some small app that takes you
a few hours to whack together, but what if it were
an essential business tool (like word or excell)
which every business used.
Sure there might be some personal satisfaction
in building a successful, stable application, but
pretty soon your interest in improving the program
would die off.
Maybe I don't understand what exactly this software
offers, but it sounds like a good deal for music
listeners, and a bad deal for musos. If it's too
bad a deal, you might find that there are no more
musos.
I'm keen to understand more about the application,
but please make the post clear, simple and slowly
explain what the software will do, and what YOU
think the implications of it will be to the industry.
Do you actually like music?
Justin French
---------------------------------
THREEPOINT ~~ loudheavyfunkymusic
http://www.threepoint.live.com.au
---------------------------------
smonk
Justin French <jfr...@sprint.com.au> wrote in message
news:3911A4DB...@sprint.com.au...
> If you think it is a good idea to have all music
> as free music... if you think it's okay to copy
> / burn a CD and sell copies of your favorite
> album to your mates is a good idea, or to rip
> every CD in your collection into MP3s and email
> them to your mates is a good idea, then you will
> find that the whole industry will die.
>
MP3 does not equal free music. Go have a look at www.emusic.com , they are
selling MP3s. When I was a teenager we taped each others vinyl records, now
people burn each other's CDs, there is always going to be this type of
copyright infringement. All MP3s do is allow it to take place over the
internet.
If musicians want to get paid they need to create something that people will
gladly pay for. If the price is right people will pay, there will always be
people that won't pay but I don't think there is much you can do about that.
Most people realise the simple equation that giving the artist money will
encourage them to do more work, therefore if you want to hear any more from
that artist it is good to give them some money.
You went on to draw an analogy with software but the situation is exactly
the same. Software developers have to rely on sales to the honest people
that pay, it is estimated that for a successful shareware product only 10%
of the actual users will register. The developer just has to make do with
that 10%. There is no way to determine this but based on my experience I
would say at least 50% of the users of Microsoft Word are using illegal or
pirated copies.
Some points about MP3 that you might not have considered:
1) It is a great way to archive music for future generations to enjoy. In
50 years time your CD is unlikely to be playable, of course if you make
disposable shit music then this isn't of concern. Record companies don't
like this though because it means they can't reissue a "remastered" version
of your recording in 2050.
2) It is environmentally friendly. When you think about it, it is extremely
wasteful of the Earth's resources to make CDs to distribute music which in
essence is without physical form. What do you think is going to happen to
all those Bardot CDs in 20 years time? They'll most likely be land fill.
3) All the friction that exists around them at the moment is a portent of
the great changes that are coming. It is a fact of life that most people
don't like change. Record execs are feeling threatened because it is now
not clear that they can sit on their fat salaries for the next 20 years.
Musos are nervous because the whole ball game is changing. Look at how the
Internet has reshaped the world, yet 8 years ago it was barely know outside
of academic circles. Wake up and smell the coffee. Change or die.
smonk
Dave.
wrote:
Wake up and smell the coffee. Change or die.
As you see Jason this is the ultimatum you face.
if you really want someone to get your money back off
I have someone you and Metallicker and all the RIAA can go see.
To explain
Where do you make money of people taping or recording your stuff ?
from the creator of the tape.
You dont levvy the tapes an what is taped only that it can be done.
You dont levy the one who sells the tape or puts a label on it.
So where do you make your money out of MP3
from the creator of course same as tapes.
in this case again you dont make any money of the person who uses it
or the person who retails it to copy like a tape
you hit the creator
since he his hitting everyone else more than anyone around here
why dont you go snip his big fat bank acount to top up the RIAA
coffers
Heres the address
http://mp3licensing.com
BTW they claim to own royalty rights to all your music too each time
it is played
There, problem solved now we can all be left alone and you get your
cut off MP3.
8% up on world wide CD sales since MP3 boom
Not happy with that ?
As I said you wont get paid for the content of what is copied same as
with a tape but you can get a whack off the creator, they already took
it off the rest of us and the vendors in the price of all commercial
software.
Dave