W
Michael O'Donnell
He left me a message.
MOD
James Hepler
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
Ruby Sinreich
= Ruby
--
r u b y s i n r e i c h -<>- ru...@lotusmedia.org
Phaedra Kelly
phaedra
>From: James Hepler <james...@yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu
>To: "Chapel Hill Music Lovers" <ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: W
>Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 13:32:51 -0800 (PST)
>
>Both Hunt and Bush called me.
>
>--- Michael O'Donnell <modo...@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> > Did anyone else have George Bush call them Monday
> > night?
> > He left me a message.
> >
> > MOD
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
>http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
_________________________________________________________________
The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Phaedra Kelly
music to sample the messages in.
then with all the money we make, we buy a small island on a different planet
somewhere...
phaedra (who has decided to embrace the escapism of fantasy)
>From: Ruby Sinreich <li...@lotusmedia.org>
>Reply-To: ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu
>To: "Chapel Hill Music Lovers" <ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: W
>Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:50:38 -0500
>
>Liddy called me. It's saved on my voice mail for 4 more days if anyone
>wants to sample it and deconstruct the shit out of it over a good beat.
>
>
>= Ruby
>
>At 1:32 PM -0800 11/6/02, James Hepler wrote:
> >Both Hunt and Bush called me.
> >
> >--- Michael O'Donnell <modo...@us.ibm.com> wrote:
> >> Did anyone else have George Bush call them Monday
> >> night?
> >> He left me a message.
> >>
> >> MOD
> >>
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do you Yahoo!?
> >HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
> >http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
>
>
>--
>r u b y s i n r e i c h -<>- ru...@lotusmedia.org
_________________________________________________________________
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
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Chris Rossi
not a month ago. what am i? chopped fegato? am i not a member of the
electorate as well? who wants to swing my vote?
nobody, apparently. i feel very left out now. like my vote doesn't
count.
ok. so i felt like that before, too.
i'd save the world but i'm just so busy with other stuff right now.
rossi
On Wed, 2002-11-06 at 21:57, Margaret Campbell wrote:
No W, no Liddy, no Erskine called.
However, David Price called a week or so ago.
--mjc
m...@pobox.com
inkw...@hotmail.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech, or of the
press....
>From: "Michael O'Donnell"
>Reply-To: ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu
>To: "Chapel Hill Music Lovers"
>Subject: W
>Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 15:24:34 -0500
>
>Did anyone else have George Bush call them Monday night?
>He left me a message.
>
>MOD
________________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
Lisa Drake
said the call was from Worcester, MA. Wonder if he's a Red Sox fan.
In article <1036638219.1663.17.camel@grillo>,
Phaedra Kelly
because they're scared of me :)
phaedra
>From: Lisa Drake <ldr...@pobox.com>
>Reply-To: ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu
>To: "Chapel Hill Music Lovers" <ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: W
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
tedpossum
"unknown" over the past week but no one left me any messages other than
"hello?" and ambient keyboard clicking and maybe some unintelligble
joke-telling.
I'm card-carrying "unaffiliated" if anyone's looking to trend any of this.
-whit
gr...@ibiblio.org
Yep, I'm "unaffiliated" as well & nobody called us but the Sierra Club, which is the least they can do considering all the money I've given them this year.
Ruby Sinreich
= Ruby
Tim Harper
"Ruby Sinreich" <li...@lotusmedia.org> wrote in message
news:a05111b20b9f029e5e07a@[192.168.0.190]...
> Well I'm unaffiliated too, and I had our next Senator call me. I also
vote religiously in every single election at every level.
>
> = Ruby
>
>
real person from the democratic party asking if I had voted.
Tim
nathan
like to play around with them.
please reply off-list to nat...@duckonbike.com. thanks.
martin hall
--- Phaedra Kelly <bluef...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Jesus called me.
>
did he want you for a sunbeam?
no one called me.
after getting about 10 calls during the last election,
i felt blessed this time around.
i had never gotten calls before 2000, and to be honest
i always felt a little left out. i had answered two
pre-election "polls" when i answered the phone at my
parents house and pretended to be a 60 yr old. tried
to skew the hell out of those AARP demographics. ;-)
this year no calls, and it led me to consider
something. last election cycle i lived in a
prodominantly lower income minority neighborhood in
Durham. this time around i live in the "liberal zoo"
of Carrboro/Chapel Hill (thanks Jesse).
i had to wonder if the calls were somehow targeted (by
phone exhange) to certain demographic/geographic
areas.
btw, the 10 calls last cycle were pretty much evenly
split democrat/republican.
whatev,
-5er
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
Sakura-San
They couldn't have really been on the phone?
R
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael O'Donnell" <modo...@us.ibm.com>
Newsgroups: alt.music.chapel-hill
To: "Chapel Hill Music Lovers" <ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu>
amelia v. burch
Just as a reminder-the NPR Drive is going on right now, and ends tomorrow. You can give whatever you can afford. 962-9862. some neighbor i've never met took my pledge. i heart ira glass.
ps. i feel like by supporting ira glass i also support david sedaris and stephin merritt as i believe they are all one person. like dr. bronner's.
amelia
Do you Yahoo!?
U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from Greatest Hits CD
Duncan Murrell
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 09:30 AM, amelia v. burch wrote:
> Just as a reminder-the NPR Drive is going on right now, and ends
> tomorrow. You can give whatever you can afford. 962-9862. some
> neighbor i've never met took my pledge. i heart ira glass.
>
> ps. i feel like by supporting ira glass i also support david sedaris
> and stephin merritt as i believe they are all one person. like dr.
> bronner's.
>
>
>
> amelia
>
WUNC does not need your money as badly as they imply. WNCU does, did
you remember to pledge to them a couple weeks ago? Didn't think so.
WUNC is one of the richest, best-supported stations in the nation, and
has taken that money and turned it's station into a repeater of
whatever they can snatch from NPR, PRI, MPR, etc. Have you seen their
swank digs at the Friday Center? Go over and visit the Shaw and NCCU
stations sometime, and decide who deserves your money. In local
programming alone, those two stations are much more accomplished than
WUNC. And on WNCU, you can still get "Morning Edition" and "All Things
Considered" if that's important to you.
If you heart Ira Glass, you can get your fill (and more -- bonus cuts,
never broadcast stories) for free at http://www.thisamericanlife.org/
And if you ever wondered whatever happened to all that great jazz that
used to play on WUNC during the 1980s, WNCU has the collection now.
d
Ruby Sinreich
amelia v. burch
i am officially corrected. and redirected. um, thanks.
gr...@ibiblio.org
Stations which have a greater need and are far more deserving of donations, IMHO:
WXDU (PO Box 90689, Durham NC, 27708 - we also have a co-benefit with Radio Free Records coming up next Saturday the 23rd at Duke Coffeehouse)
WXYC (from their website: "Donations made to WXYC through the Office of University Development (http://carolinafirst.unc.edu) are fully tax deductible - if you do make a donation through UNC, you must specify that it is to benefit WXYC.
WNCU (http://www.nccu.edu/campus/wncu/main_sbscrib.htm)
Ross
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 06:30:03 -0800 (PST), ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu said:
>
> Just as a reminder-the NPR Drive is going on right now, and ends tomorrow. You can give whatever you can afford. 962-9862. some neighbor i've never met took my pledge. i heart ira glass.
>
>ps. i feel like by supporting ira glass i also support david sedaris and stephin merritt as i believe they are all one person. like dr. bronner's.
>
>
>
>amelia
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
Programming
saturday, november 23rd at 8PM
duke coffeehouse, duke university east campus
$5
Listen to xdu we don't ask for money
I'm a bit biased though.
Here's my take.. NPR does some good programming, but they need to leave
room and encourage other alternatives to corporate radio..
NPR along with the National Association Of Broadcasters (NAB) opposes the
creation of Low Power FM stations that would bring more local programming
to many communities.
If you do give money to WUNC, ask for more local content. Or just give
your cash to WNCU (like others said).
CPB (corporation for public broadcasting) made a secret Deal with the
RIAA/soundexchange to webcast music over the web. In this deal CPB pays
the royalties for all their member stations and stations with less than 10
employees do not have to report every song they play. Meanwhile non-cpb
college and community stations are left out in the cold.
Advertisements really fund WUNC: (http://wunc.org/business/)
"Consider this: Close to 200,000 adults in central North Carolina and
southern Virginia spend time each week listening to programs on
WUNC-FM. They are affluent, influential, highly educated, well
traveled--and they are intensely loyal to public radio.
According to Audience 98's public radio re-contact survey of Arbitron
diary keepers, 88%say, "My opinion of a company is more positive when I
find out that it supports public radio."
Does this sound like a desirable target audience for your business,
corporation or professional group?
Each time your support is acknowledged on the air you are brought into a
circle of shared commitment with thousands of individual contributors. No
other medium gives you theequivalent high-end market exposure along with
the recognition that comes from supportinga respected public service. "
James Hepler
under my skin that I want to fly to wherever he is and
mule kick him in the stomach.
Last year was worse than this year, but this year is
pretty bad.
I'm still bearing a grudge against NPR for their
stance on low power FM broadcasting. Public radio my
ass.
Hep
--- "amelia v. burch" <avb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Just as a reminder-the NPR Drive is going on right
> now, and ends tomorrow. You can give whatever you
> can afford. 962-9862. some neighbor i've never met
> took my pledge. i heart ira glass.
>
> ps. i feel like by supporting ira glass i also
> support david sedaris and stephin merritt as i
> believe they are all one person. like dr.
> bronner's.
>
>
>
> amelia
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from
> Greatest Hits CD
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Todd Morman
> stance on low power FM broadcasting.
The one part of that episode I found truly unconscionable was NPR's support
of the NAB-produced CD of "crosstalk" interference NAB claimed would result
from increased wattage for low-power stations. The CD, which was handed out
to legislators to get them to reduce or drop their LPFM support, got this
response from the head of the FCC's office of engineering technology:
"The type of 'crosstalk' interference suggested by NAB, that is, where you
can intelligibly hear portions of both transmissions, does not occur from
LPFM stations operating on third adjacent channels. Any such interference
that might occur would only appear as noise or hissing. The NAB 'crosstalk'
demonstration simply does not represent actual FM radio performance and
therefore is meaningless."
But NPR actually *endorsed* the CD as "credible" and "very useful." I
couldn't believe it when I read the news. That one, very specific move spoke
volumes.
todd I've never thought of WUNC the same way since morman
Duncan Murrell
modifications to the original LPFM regs, which would have allowed many
more LPFM stations, you can still have an LPFM station. The Public
Gallery of Carrboro has made an application and has some interesting
plans for the station, with an antenna on top of the WSM store in
Southern Village:
http://indyweek.com/durham/2002-09-04/triangles.html
The FCC info on the Public Gallery application:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?facid=135187
And here's a list of all the LPFM applications in North Carolina that
are still in the running:
http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?state=NC&serv=FL&vac=5&list=2
d
Phaedra Kelly
Word.
phaedra
Public radio my
>ass.
>
>Hep
>
>--- "amelia v. burch" <avb...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Just as a reminder-the NPR Drive is going on right
> > now, and ends tomorrow. You can give whatever you
> > can afford. 962-9862. some neighbor i've never met
> > took my pledge. i heart ira glass.
> >
> > ps. i feel like by supporting ira glass i also
> > support david sedaris and stephin merritt as i
> > believe they are all one person. like dr.
> > bronner's.
> >
> >
> >
> > amelia
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive medley & videos from
> > Greatest Hits CD
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos
>http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
_________________________________________________________________
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Michael O'Donnell
I agree with the sentiment that people should give elsewhere but from the
website below -- it looks like 64% of their support comes from individuals.
I have absolutely no idea where that ratio puts them on the public radio
spectrum. I would guess that's on the low side. (although it's about the
same as WAMU.) Seems a stretch to say WUNC is funded by advertisements in
the sense that's the main source of revenue.
But maybe I am misreading what you meant, Jeff?
I am also lost as to why CPB's deal somehow left small college stations in
the cold. I don't think it's their job to make sure college/community
radio can still function on the web. I wouldn't expect Clear Channel to
go to bat for college radio. Why would I expect CPB?
Public radio and community/college radio are apples and oranges.
MOD
Duncan Murrell
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 11:23 AM, Michael O'Donnell wrote:
> I don't think it's their job to make sure college/community
> radio can still function on the web.
That's right. It's Jesse Helms's job:
http://www.westword.com/issues/2002-11-07/message.html/1/index.html
d
Programming
> website below -- it looks like 64% of their support comes from individuals.
Ok, I overstated my case in this instance. Sorry for my poor research.
How do they count matching donations? I still don't like the idea of
corporate sponsors for public radio or TV. Especially when they start
laying off veteran investigative reporters
http://www.current.org/news/news0219zwerd.html
But I admit I don't know the specifics of their government funding either.
I know I'm jaded and angry..
> I am also lost as to why CPB's deal somehow left small college stations in
> the cold.
By having the terms of the deal with the RIAA undisclosed, college and
community is unable to use it as precedent to make our deal reasonable.
I feel that CPB fell into a divide and conquer strategy of the RIAA.
Jeff
gr...@ibiblio.org
Gee, I dunno, Mike. We all coexist down here at the left end of the dial. The FCC doesn't recognize any distinction between CPB-affiliated NPR type stations and "noncommercial/college" radio stations. And the majority of NPR affiliates are still associated, however loosely, with colleges & universities.
So while it's obviously rational & realistic to view the Corporation for Public Broadcasting & its lackeys as an ivory tower unto itself (which is certainly how they view themselves), that doesn't mean we have to like it. You say Apples:Oranges; what we're saying is that it doesn't have to be that way, and the fact that it *is* that way is what sucks.
Ross
Ben Davis
of time they spend begging for money. Aren't all the listeners educated
and enlightened folks in theory? Then why do they feel the need to
spend almost as much airtime on the drive as commercial stations do on
advertisements?
I get it already - you need money - I get assaulted from every direction
in this country - now they have resorted to mucho capitalist tactics -
yechhh
B
James Hepler
Idunno man, if it weren't for that, I never would have
realized how cute and quirky a gift the Carl Kasell
bobblehead would be.
What does he look like again?
Hep
Ruby Sinreich
= Ruby
marc faris
and it is a serious issue - if you're gonna donate right now, i think it has
to go to Planned Parenthood or some related women's-body-rights
organization. it might sound trite - and i know the pro-choice "movement"
has become little more than a ridiculous polarizing strategy - but given
the recent election debacle, i'm planning on making my first-ever sizeable
donation (to *anything*) and encouraging my immediate family to do the same
in lieu of gift-giving (at least to me).
but then again, i dislike virtually everything about WUNC, a feeling that
often expands to NPR in toto.
[and obviously, i'm gonna also part with my measly $5 for XDU and RFR (Jeff
- so why aren't *you* guys charging $12?).]
OK, jumping off the soapbox,
marc
gr...@ibiblio.org
No no, we should be charging $75 & giving you a fucking WXDU coffee mug as a "gift."
If you really want to expand out the list of places where all of us with no money should be donating, then certainly Planned Parenthood is on the list.
So are (in no particular order):
ACLU
Sierra Club
Natural Resources Defense Council
Nature Conservancy
Or check out www.giveforchange.com where you can get your donation matched (currently they have matching grants for donations to Conservation International, Pro-Choice Resources, the Ruckus Society, Iraq Peace Fund, NRDC, Global Exchange, and Grassroots International's Palestine program).
I hope that those of you who give through your work don't just make a blanket donation to United Way--many workplaces enable a lot more granularity so you can target your giving to those groups whom you most want to help.
I keep trying to figure out how to donate to those "Truth" people with the great anti-smoking campaign but apparently they're loaded with tobacco-settlement money ;-)
Ross
Duncan Murrell
not-for-profits run by Time-Warner and a bunch of other big companies
as a charitable endeavor. Thousands of not-for-profits are listed. In
Chapel Hill, they range from the DAR to the IFC to UNC, and many more.
The interesting thing about the web site is that they keep the
organizations IRS 990 forms on file, which you can view as PDF's, and
they give a fairly detailed rundown of the organization's last balance
sheet, which can be an eye opener. (I checked out the NRA Foundation --
they have a lot of money, in case you didn't already figure that.)
The other thing the site does is allow you to make an online donatioin
to the not-for-profit listed, and as far as I was able to tell, all of
your money goes to the not-for-profit. (Guidestar runs on its own
donations, according to the web site.)
d
Holden Richards
I can get almost everything they offer over the web WHEN I want it.
I give to NCCU.
H.
Programming
> [and obviously, i'm gonna also part with my measly $5 for XDU and RFR (Jeff
> - so why aren't *you* guys charging $12?).]
Hey anyone who wants to give more. Please feel free to!!! We'll have the
usual Merch. available T-shirts & Mugs.
We keep the cover low because we want the poor Durham kids to come too.
Our new GM lobbied hard for "witchcraft by a picture" to get on the bill.
I don't know anything about 'em, but apparently young and talented. And
our GM says the teens will come to see them and stay for the rest of the
bill..the weather,
work clothes, cold sides, jett rink.. We're trying to bring in the next
generation here.
That brings up a question.. is the music scene aging out of existence.
Are there teens and early 20's going to shows/starting bands? Its hard
for me to tell.. just a thought..
Jeff
James Hepler
--- marc faris <m...@duke.edu> wrote:
> [and obviously, i'm gonna also part with my measly
> $5 for XDU and RFR (Jeff
> - so why aren't *you* guys charging $12?).]
"none of your business"
I've been waiting for my chance to bring that back up!
greg
cares about local public issues, i was wondering what you thought
about recent public investment in solar and wind energy in san
francisco.
70 % of voters there passed a $ 100 milllion revenue bond, and the
beauty of their public investment is that after paying for itself, it
produces safe, clean, renewable energy for the community for a long,
long time and costs taxpayers nothing.
they want to replicate their model all over the country, and i thought
chapel-hill or durham might be a possibility.
its an economy of scale - lots of communities invest in solar and
wind power, driving the price of manufacture/ installation down per
unit.
down the line, duke power might see itself losing market share to a
much more efficient energy source and invest heavily in solar and
wind, similiar to IBM eventually accepting the personal computer as
the future of their business.
not to mention the fact that the U.S. could be exporting this clean,
safe, and renewable source of energy to the rest of the world instead
of importing fossil fuels for our energy needs.
here's the site -
http://www.votesolar.org/
i've emailed some local politicians and haven't heard back. what do
you think?
g
gr...@ibiblio.org
I tried to check out "Philanthropy Central" at www.trianglecf.org (as heard on WUNC ;-)) but you have to go through a complex signup just to be able to poke around.
I actually went through the whole signup thing & once through it, there seems to be huge amounts of information about local groups asking for money -- for example, if I were so inclined, I could help fund that "Tobacco Money Feeds My Family" documentary via the website, or the "Downtown Durham Directional Way-finding Signage Program", or "NARAL in NC - The Comprehensive Sex Education Project."
I don't have any $$s in the bucket right now but it looks like it could be a pretty cool tool for finding local non-profits outside of the normal top-10 donation-getters.
Somebody with more time than me should compare/contrast to guidestar.org . . .
Ross
gr...@ibiblio.org
North Carolina as a state already invests pretty heavily (compared to some other states, at least) in renewables via their tax credits--35% of the cost of a new system up to $3500 for solar heat (including passive solar) and up to some even higher amount ($6000 maybe? I don't recall the exact #) for electricity generation.
If you're at all interested in renewable-energy policy issues, you should check out/join the NC Sustainable Energy Association (www.ncsolar.org). Currently they're working on a "Green Power" initiative which will allow (is that the right word?) consumers to pay $5 extra per month to their utilities in exchange for the utility guaranteeing that the power they're buying was generated with renewable sources. I think if the state had any balls they'd just require CP&L and Duke to generate a certain percentage via renewable sources or pull their fucking charters to do business in the state, but I guess it's all about the baby steps . . .
As far as local action goes, the best action may be to take advantage of the state tax credit and put a solar hot-water collector on your roof.
Ross
James Hepler
Assets. I get to choose from 50 charities to which
they will donate a percentage of my bill. Plus, free
ice cream for a year!
If you join, I referred you...
Ron Thigpen
> So are (in no particular order):
> ACLU
> Sierra Club
> Natural Resources Defense Council
> Nature Conservancy
A recent favorite target for my charity dollars has been The Center for
Biological Diversity <http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/>.
They do some work in the lawmaking and grassroots activity realms, but
mostly they work through the courts to get various government agencies
to abide by the laws that govern them, as opposed to the political whims
of the politicians who control their funding. They've chalked up an
impressive record of wins on a very slight budget. They're mostly
working in the western states at this point, but seem to have been
gaining support and are beginning to look east. Check their website for
a recount of some recent activities.
(I first became aware of them through the Action Network
<http://actionnetwork.org/>. This is a group-sponsored, grassroots
campaign services site, with ties to Environmental Defense. Groups post
alerts to members via e-mail. Members are given a very easy means of
sending personalized, timely messages to decision makers. Gotta love a
mouse-click that lights up Gale Norton's fax machine.)
Everybody pick your own favorites, this is one of mine.
--rt
tedpossum
James Hepler wrote:
> I just switched my long distance service to Working
> Assets. I get to choose from 50 charities to which
> they will donate a percentage of my bill. Plus, free
> ice cream for a year!
>
> If you join, I referred you...
If you donated that percentage yourself, you could deduct it and then
donate that extra part of your refund, which I'd rather do than have a
for-profit company get the tax benefit.
And I can't find any intra-state rates on their long-distance page.
-whit
gr...@ibiblio.org
And they "slammed" me one time. I fucking hate that. Plus they send more junk mail than a credit card company.
marc faris
3.2.3
> similiar to IBM eventually accepting the personal computer as
> the future of their business.
find another analogy. ibm, the original open hardware vendor, loses
hundreds of millions of dollars on the pc business every year. so much
so that they've sold off their entire desktop business to another
company that just stamps an ibm logo on each product. pc's are loss
leaders for ibm. pc's are only needed by ibm to complete turnkey bids.
you can't even buy an ibm pc on the street. you have to go to the web or
a value added reseller. the past, present, and future of ibm are
midrange machines. pc's have been commodities since about two years
after ibm starting making them. for about two seconds, a couple of ibm
executives saw some business potential in pc's, and between them they
are respsonsible for tens of thousands of layoffs due to the
consequences of their mistake. i think ibm was glad to have compaq pick
up the crumbs. the customer service issues of the mass market alone are
enough to suck the life out of any other profitable sectors.
there's a huge future in massively distributed clusters of pc's. but not
as an ibm business. cuz anyone can do it with off the shelf parts. ibm's
effort in this arena was just beaten by their own best customer, who
rolled their own at a tenth of the cost.
3
3.2.3
> That brings up a question.. is the music scene aging out of existence.
> Are there teens and early 20's going to shows/starting bands? Its hard
> for me to tell.. just a thought..
dude. every year i go to the coffeehouse. and every year i feel older,
as there's a new crop of teenagers taking in the show. things seem
pretty constant. the indie rock uniform hasn't changed much since 1985.
the attitudes stay pretty much the same, including the one that believes
i'm so different. every band seems derivative of either beat happening
or fugazi or both in some way or another. parasubcultures like goth,
rave, electronica, faux country, lounge, whatever, seem to come, go, and
resurface later. but there also seems to be this bottomless well of new
kids continually buying guitars. i'm not sure, but i think this has been
going on since the ancient greeks.
3
Phaedra Kelly
pk
>dude. every year i go to the coffeehouse. and every year i feel older,
>as there's a new crop of teenagers taking in the show. things seem
>pretty constant. the indie rock uniform hasn't changed much since 1985.
>the attitudes stay pretty much the same, including the one that believes
>i'm so different. every band seems derivative of either beat happening
>or fugazi or both in some way or another. parasubcultures like goth,
>rave, electronica, faux country, lounge, whatever, seem to come, go, and
>resurface later. but there also seems to be this bottomless well of new
>kids continually buying guitars. i'm not sure, but i think this has been
>going on since the ancient greeks.
>
>3
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8.
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Ron Thigpen
> If you're at all interested in renewable-energy policy issues, you
> should check out/join the NC Sustainable Energy Association
> (www.ncsolar.org). Currently they're working on a "Green Power"
> initiative which will allow (is that the right word?) consumers to pay
> $5 extra per month to their utilities in exchange for the utility
> guaranteeing that the power they're buying was generated with
> renewable sources.
more information on the NC GreenPower program:
<http://advancedenergy.org/greenpower/facts.html>
there's an open case with the NC Utilities Commission where they are
hammering out all the details. follow the blow-by-blow action at the
commsion here: <http://tinyurl.com/2o7q>
looks like the program should roll out about 3-4 months after the
commission approves it. maybe by summer? there are a lot of details to
something like this, and not everyone will be 100% pleased with every
aspect of it, but the upshot is that an average household could spend
about $40 more a month and cover their entire electricity use without
contributions to fossil or nuke use. better yet, the money they do
spend will support small power producers. sources will be solar, wind,
landfill methane and some form of biomass.
(something like four bucks will buy one block of 100 green kilowatt
hours. you can buy however many blocks you desire.)
economics of scale and specialization can be good. just for comparison,
that same $40 would just pay the note for about $6000 worth of PV system
(20years@6%). tax breaks might get you an $8000 system. that system
wouldn't come close to generating 1000kwh.
granted, the solar PV component is some of the most expensive, but we
don't have good wind resources here in the piedmont, i don't live by a
millstream and wouldn't really want to maintain a backyard methane
digester. i would however happily support a huge digester at the local
sewage treatment plant, landfill or hog operation.
all in all, it looks this will be a pretty decent way to reduce your
household fossil fuel dependency.
--rt
James Hepler
That all sounds like an awful lot of math.
And no free ice cream!
James Hepler
--- gr...@ibiblio.org wrote:
>
> And they "slammed" me one time. I fucking hate that.
> Plus they send more junk mail than a credit card
> company.
Could you refresh me on what slamming is?
Hep
>
>
>
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 15:47:02 -0500,
> ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu said:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >James Hepler wrote:
>
> >> I just switched my long distance service to
> Working
>
> >> Assets. I get to choose from 50 charities to
> which
>
> >> they will donate a percentage of my bill. Plus,
> free
>
> >> ice cream for a year!
>
> >>
>
> >> If you join, I referred you...
>
> >
>
> >If you donated that percentage yourself, you could
> deduct it and then
>
> >donate that extra part of your refund, which I'd
> rather do than have a
>
> >for-profit company get the tax benefit.
>
> >
>
> >And I can't find any intra-state rates on their
> long-distance page.
>
> >
>
> >-whit
>
> >
>
> >
>
amelia v. burch
Robert W Shaw
You guys are way too hard on WUNC. Look, this programming would not exist
without substantial fundraising. The simple fact is that advertising would
not cover the costs of this programming. Some advertising covers costs of
great material, and some do not. The reason is that those that use the
resource, the listeners, do not pay a price for it like they do, say,
clothes. So, the fact that ads do not pay for it does not necessarily mean
that there is not a demand for it. Because WUNC cannot charge for per-hour
listening, they have to raise funds as a public interest organization, as
they are. Because they spend a lot of resources on their OWN programming,
moreso than the other non-com stations around here, they are going to have
to ask for more money and have more corporate sponsorships. Plus, the
doctors and lawyers and other educated folks that do the sponsoring also
do the listening, so it is something of a public interest thing, even if
they (of course) get lots of benefit out of it, which is FINE.
Programming: NPR is the best news source out there, IMO. Outstanding
stuff. Then, Ira Glass is freaking awesome. Again, IMO. The State of
Things is great, and WUNC has very good local coverage for what their
budget allows.
So contribute! And if you don't, give money somewhere else and don't bitch
about it!
Chris Rossi
>
> So contribute! And if you don't, give money somewhere else and don't bitch
> about it!
>
if the public doesn't bitch about it, it won't change, either. i think
someone pointed out earlier that part of why we have The State Things
now is people some years ago. in general folks have to be held
accountable to the folks the profess to serve. bitching is good and
necessary.
rossi
Todd Morman
I must have missed the "great" shows. Can you tell me which ones you really
liked? I find it generally lacking, mainly by failing to ask even the most
basic follow-up questions of its guests. I listen to a lot of radio, public
and private, and State of Things feels like an unusually soft program to me.
todd much less interesting than it could be morman
Robert W Shaw
> rossi
To me, it's not the fact that people are critiquing WUNC so much as they
are not giving the station a fair shake. That's why I call it bitching and
not criticism. I think the station does a great job and is very committed
to public service while still not shooting itself in the foot financially.
I mean, these people that run the station are not exactly sitting on a
cash cow. They would all be doing something else if they were out to make
a buck or something. Further, some of the programming is excellent. The
stuff I don't care for I just don't listen to, and it doesn't detract from
my support for the good shows.
gr...@ibiblio.org
Slamming = changing your long distance to them from whomever you're using, without asking you first. There were new rules put in place a couple of years ago to make it harder for companies to do that (which also make it kind of a pain to make any changes to some parts of your phone service, but c'est la vie) but prior to that it was rampant. I was very surprised to find that Working Assets had done it, but I also knew that neither Sarah nor myself had switched voluntarily, so . . .
Seriously, their junk mail is out of control, too. One of you Working Assets subscribers should say something to them about that.
Ross
p.s. my long-distance bill averages around $1 a month, so I choose to do my philanthropic giving via other methods ;-)
Robert W Shaw
I think there's a place for nice, softball looks at the local community.
WUNC has enough "tough questions" shows in general.
--
Robert W Shaw
Life, Car Talk, *some* Talk of the Nation shows (depends on the subject),
BBC at night, Fresh Air. And I like the commitment to
acoustically-produced music in Back Porch Music. I am very committed to
acoustic music and believe it deserves to be promoted (and I am in a band
also, I don't just cut one way).
--
Robert W Shaw
do object to their decision to disconnect classical music with news
programming. :)
marc faris <m...@duke.edu> wrote:
> with all due respect to the ongoing plight of college/community stations -
> and it is a serious issue - if you're gonna donate right now, i think it has
> to go to Planned Parenthood or some related women's-body-rights
> organization. it might sound trite - and i know the pro-choice "movement"
> has become little more than a ridiculous polarizing strategy - but given
> the recent election debacle, i'm planning on making my first-ever sizeable
> donation (to *anything*) and encouraging my immediate family to do the same
> in lieu of gift-giving (at least to me).
> but then again, i dislike virtually everything about WUNC, a feeling that
> often expands to NPR in toto.
> [and obviously, i'm gonna also part with my measly $5 for XDU and RFR (Jeff
> - so why aren't *you* guys charging $12?).]
> OK, jumping off the soapbox,
> marc
--
Ruby Sinreich
Daily Tarheel.
= Ruby
On 11/13/02 4:52 PM, "Robert W Shaw" <rob...@unc.edu> wrote:
>
> Programming: NPR is the best news source out there, IMO. Outstanding
> stuff. Then, Ira Glass is freaking awesome. Again, IMO. The State of
> Things is great, and WUNC has very good local coverage for what their
> budget allows.
>
--
r u b y s i n r e i c h -<>- ru...@lotusmedia.org
http://www.lotusmedia.org -<>- the art of doing a lot with a little
Phaedra Kelly
The "public" does not need more "softball" shows. Pretty much all the major
media serves nothing but that. You want soft, watch Entertainment Tonight
(if it's still on the air?)
I guess folks probably just want NPR to be an ALTERNATIVE to the corporate
media. Can't imagine where they got that crazy idea. Perhaps from NPR
itself?
phaedra
>From: Robert W Shaw <rob...@unc.edu>
>Reply-To: ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu
>To: "Chapel Hill Music Lovers" <ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: NPR Drive
>Date: 13 Nov 2002 17:13:57 -0500
>
>Sure, it's a softball show, but does every show have to be hard core news?
>I think there's a place for nice, softball looks at the local community.
>WUNC has enough "tough questions" shows in general.
>
>Todd Morman <tmo...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> > > The State of Things is great,
>
> > I must have missed the "great" shows. Can you tell me which ones you
>really
> > liked? I find it generally lacking, mainly by failing to ask even the
>most
> > basic follow-up questions of its guests. I listen to a lot of radio,
>public
> > and private, and State of Things feels like an unusually soft program to
>me.
>
> > todd much less interesting than it could be morman
>
>
>
>--
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Phaedra Kelly
bitching.
pk
>From: Robert W Shaw <rob...@unc.edu>
>Reply-To: ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu
>To: "Chapel Hill Music Lovers" <ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu>
>Subject: Re: NPR Drive
>Date: 13 Nov 2002 17:17:00 -0500
>
>Other great shows: Morning Edition, All Things Considered, This American
>Life, Car Talk, *some* Talk of the Nation shows (depends on the subject),
>BBC at night, Fresh Air. And I like the commitment to
>acoustically-produced music in Back Porch Music. I am very committed to
>acoustic music and believe it deserves to be promoted (and I am in a band
>also, I don't just cut one way).
>
>Todd Morman <tmo...@nc.rr.com> wrote:
> > > The State of Things is great,
>
> > I must have missed the "great" shows. Can you tell me which ones you
>really
> > liked? I find it generally lacking, mainly by failing to ask even the
>most
> > basic follow-up questions of its guests. I listen to a lot of radio,
>public
> > and private, and State of Things feels like an unusually soft program to
>me.
>
> > todd much less interesting than it could be morman
>
>
>
>--
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
marc faris
that's right, virtually everything. i like the 9 AM BBC News Hour.
anything else?... um, nothing i'd really miss if the station suddenly
dropped into the earth. hmmm. now THAT would be interesting radio!
> Though I
> do object to their decision to disconnect classical music with news
> programming. :)
you know, i used to be upset about this too. but i've finally come to the
conclusion that their decision to bascially discontinue the classical-music
thing was one of their smarter moves, given that almost everything i heard
on there was exactly the sort of mellifluous, unengaging crap that makes
most people hate classical music in the first place. (that's obviously not
counting the occasional specialty things, of which the "Composers in
Context" shows were the best.)
there was a *really* good article in the Atlantic Monthly this year, in
which the author addressed the ongoing problem in classical-music
institutions of familiarizing new audiences with older music through a
critique of classical radio stations. the final question he rasises - one
WUNC should have asked itself loooong ago - is this: how can radio stations
bemoan the fact that people are no longer falling in love with classical
music, when radio stations refuse to play classical music that people can
actually fall in love with?!? see for yourself:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/03/budiansky.htm
marc
Programming
> Life, Car Talk, *some* Talk of the Nation shows (depends on the subject),
> BBC at night, Fresh Air.
They're all nice programs and very expensive, but they don't have local
content
WUNC could sacrifice one or some of these to have more quality local
programs.
It seems that WUNC should focus more on local content since you can get
NPR all over the net and sattelite radio. What happens when listeners
don't need WUNC to listen to these programs?
While we're on to critiquing.
>And I like the commitment to
> acoustically-produced music in Back Porch Music. I am very committed to
> acoustic music and believe it deserves to be promoted (and I am in a band
> also, I don't just cut one way).
>
In my opinion, Back Porch music is something that could be great but it
comes out totally boring and safe. Whenever my dial finds that show its
always the same.. Allison Krause crowd, no-one new.. The recordings are
always slick and doesn't make me think of "back-porch" music..
I'm biased (being a volunteer at xdu) but the local college stations blow
WUNC out of the water in that department.
WXYC Orange County Special Sundays 10-1PM
WXDU Topsoil Sundays noon - 2pm
WXDU Cosmic Hoedown Sundays 7-9pm
WXDU Border Radio Sat. 8-9PM
I'm probably missing some.
Like Rossi said. Bitching is good. Especially when you are asking for a
lot of money..
Your pal,
Jeff
tedpossum
Paula Simone Cook wrote:
> the point is not *just* the donation - it's that it's an alternative to
> sending your money to, say, Verizon, who is committed to nothing bUt
> profit, and will spend a huge chunk of it on the "Can you hear me now?"
> campaign (reason enough to drop them, if their command that you "re-up"
> your minutes wasn't enough -- re-up???) and the incessant lobbying of
> congress to allow them to rip us off mOre to pay for their exorbitant
> executive compensation, and of course their incessant lobbying and noxious
> ad campaigns.
I don't see WA being any less for-profit than other telecom companies.
Is 1% that much more than the Bells donate to their causes? If I get to
choose, I'd rather just donate it myself.
And ross's point: if they're so concerned, why all the junk mail?
I don't think they're any less obnoxious - before I had caller ID, I got
as much telemarketing from WA as anyone.
>
> working assets, in addition to the donating money thing, has also done a
> fairly commendable job of mobilizing action as well, with their email
> action campaigns and activism clearinghouse
> http://www.workingforchange.com/activism/index.cfm which could alone be
> worth supporting them despite, yes, perhaps slightly more expensive
> service.
>
> it's much like ron says re: solar power, in which spending slightly more a
> month keeps the $ out of the hands of the fossil/nuke contingent - it's
> crucial who you're *not* giving your money to. the point is you're voting
> with your dollar for a model of business that at the very least has a
> conscience. at best, though, great numbers of people subscribing to
> working assets (or maybe even more importantly, *not* subscribing to the
> other guys) in appreciation of the fact that they support progressive
> causes *might* actually catch the attention of the Market (Under God).
> light a fire.
>
> certainly if you're one of the folks that, for instance, eviscerates
> Greens, saying their failure to "compromise" behind the
> lesser-of-two-evil-candidates only serves the cause of the
> greater-of-two-evil-candidates, you should reconsider voting for this
> lesser-of-two-evil-for-profit-utilities.
WA is only reselling long distance service. You're not really keeping
money from anyone. The other carriers that you think you're avoiding are
actually the ones carrying your voice - Qwest, Bellsouth, Verizon, and
lots of companies you've never heard of. WA takes your money, pays
*their* provider bills and reaps a tax advantage from the donations they
make with your money.
$3 from WA could be $4 from you.
If you like the ice cream and the choice of where the money goes, that's
fine. But I feel like they're pushing my buttons and I find it insulting.
-whit
gr...@ibiblio.org
"What their budget allows"? What the hell? They pay $500k a year for all that syndicated stuff they run, which is like 85% of their airtime. They pull in at least $1.2 million a year from their fund drives, plus the other 40% that doesn't come from fund drives. You'd think that their budget, if done properly, would "allow" for some serious investigative local news.
The above paragraph should also be construed as a refutation of your comment about them not sitting on a cash cow from an earlier post. Given how little local production they have to do each day/week, they don't exactly have to work hard for the money that they're vacuuming out of the wallets of this target-demographic-heavy region.
I will say that compared to their local coverage circa 5 years ago, the current WUNC is lightyears ahead of the 1997 WUNC. Occasionally I will hear something on The State of Things which almost aspires to something more than softball feel-good coverage of our fine state. Not often, but occasionally. But given that a few years ago, their "local coverage" consisted of a handful of 2-minute pieces during the morning drive (& then repeated during the evening drive), they've definitely improved.
And while NPR's political coverage grows increasingly dismaying with every passing week, they (NPR, not WUNC) are still remarkably good at social audio documentary. All the more depressing, then, to learn that they're moving towards beefing up their increasingly party-line "hard news" at the expense of their audio-doc stuff, as evidenced by the firing of Danny Zwerdling.
As for your comments about acoustic music & their support of it, I'd say that they could do a lot more to support the local music scene than they already are. Dave Tilley at WXDU has live local bluegrass, country & oldtime musicians performing on his Sunday night show nearly every week. How often does WUNC have similar programming? Seems like with all that cash they must probably have a pretty nice studio facility.
I will freely confess that I'm a regular listener to a wide variety of the syndicated programming that WUNC carries. But my enjoyment of that nationally-produced stuff doesn't translate into any particular good feelings about WUNC. I often argue against satellite radio by reminding folks that part of the original mandate to broadcasters was that they carry content which reflects their community-of-license. Although WUNC is better now at that than they were, they still fall far short of where they should be, especially considering how much of their money comes from local donors.
I mean, given how much of their programming comes from satellite, how would *they* make the argument for pledging $100 to them, versus somebody just signing up for XM satellite radio & getting not only the NPR channel or channels, but the other 100 channels of satellite radio as well? Local content is the only way WUNC is going to be able to differentiate itself from Sirius and XM, and as more and more cars roll off the lines with satellite receivers pre-installed, it's going to be increasingly important to them.
Double reruns of Car Talk, PHC and TAL ain't going to count for much at that point.
Ross
p.s. so are you an employee or just a regular contributor trying to justify yr contribution? (to us, or to yourself?)
Robert W Shaw
given me TONS of grief! ;) And I agree partially that if the classical
community is going to ignore reality and become a drag on the station, it
should dump the classical. Maybe it'll be a wake-up call. So anyway, I
just turned on WCPE and heard them announce the next hour's line
up--sounds like a who's who list of the most banal composers ever
published. *groan* (So, it was back to WXYC! *ahhhh!*)
So anyway, I do defend NPR News, though. I think they do a fine job,
substantially better than the old BBC news feed. More cultural stories,
more good commentary, and superbly presented.
Robert W Shaw
stations for music anyway.
Local content is extremely expensive to produce. They basically sandwich
local content in the NPR time slots, with the State of Things being
something of a "let's just enjoy positive things about the state" show,
which I think is important. Unfortunately, they probably don't have much
more money to do more local reporting, but then again I don't know of
other stations that are exactly smoking it in that department, anyway. I
would certainly like to see more local programming, though, and always
(actually) make that pitch whenever I send in my contribution. WXYC/WXDU,
for example, don't do much organized stuff in that category. The Sunday
afternoon stuff on WXYC usually comes off to me as being mostly local
protester types who don't research the whole issue, for example.
Local news is probably best provided by newspapers, where there is a much
better way to have the reporting paid for.
> Your pal,
> Jeff
--
Todd Morman
Well, thanks for agreeing on that.
> I think there's a place for nice, softball looks at the local community.
Sure. North Carolina Postcards fills that spot nicely.
> WUNC has enough "tough questions" shows in general.
Local ones? Really? When?
todd not a one I can see morman
Duncan Murrell
show:
http://wunc.org/about/newsrelease_0902.html
d
christa
an event (and nothing more), i've found that in my experience the people who
hate listening to it are the people -generally speaking- who feel guilty
about not making a donation. they feel they should (for whatever reason),
but something is stopping them from going through with it. for these
people, every moment of the pledge drive can be pure torture.
for those who pledge, the drive can actually be quite enjoyable, believe it
or not. the announcers even like it. some thrive on it. as corny as it
sounds, it's a community pulling together to support something they believe
in. whether anyone else believes in it, or its worth, is moot.
lastly, i'll readily admit to bias, but i'll defend WCPE's programming to my
death. some may call it 'banal', but i cannot tell you how many people
discover the station, hear beethoven's 6th symphony for the first time, and
their world is forever changed. every time -and i'm not exaggerating-
pachelbel's cannon goes over the air at least one person calls to ask what
it was they heard. what's more, WCPE is one of the most most listened to
Internet radio stations online
(http://www.arbitron.com/newsroom/archive/10_10_02.htm); people are
discovering the station every day and are enjoying the music.
in fact, *i* still discover new pieces of classical music at WCPE... and
i've been working there for 4 years. i still cry every time i hear
saint-saens' organ symphony. i am not tired of mozart. every listen
affords an opportunity to hear something new in the music. every new
recording gives a fresh interpretation.
'banal' as a descriptor should be reserved for pop music. britney spears.
of course, some may argue that WCPE's programming approaches 'pop'. i
invite those people to a duel.
finally, the most troubling thing i hear these days is the term "public
radio" becoming synonymous with "npr." if i could change one thing in this
world, that would be it.
i'm not really serious about that, but it does piss me off. public radio,
in my definition, is a station that relies on public support... to whatever
degree. WCPE is "public radio" (100% listener-supported) but is certainly
*not* NPR.
i think that was my yearly pro-WCPE rant.
tune in again next year for more. :)
christa wessel | mailto:ri...@duke.edu | http://www.singintomymouth.com
Duncan Murrell
don't feel particularly moved by the fact that it's expensive and they
need a lot of money to run it. (And, because the station's license
holder is a public institution - UNC-CH - I feel entitled to bitch
about it.) If it's so damned expensive to put someone with some smarts
and something to say behind a microphone, why is it that WNCU can do it
more often on a fraction of WUNC's budget?
Even your buddy Ira Glass has gone on the record, a number of times,
complaining that local public radio stations don't have the guts to
start new shows on their own for fear of spending their money, which
they're spending on market-proven shows piped in by satellite that
guarantee the delivery of that upscale demographic WUNC is so proud of.
Don't believe me? Check out the CPB's grant project (in which WUNC was
a participant) to "accelerate listener income growth," and I don't
think they mean raising my wages:
http://stations.cpb.org/radio/grants/futurefund/projectlist.html
Glass also points out that many of the big network shows -- like Fresh
Air and Car Talk -- began as local shows and have been around for
decades. Where are the new, locally-grown shows? he asks.
And before you say it, both Backporch Music and The People's Pharmacy
are a couple decades old.
The answer to Glass's question is that various market studies that have
grabbed the attention of public radio stations nationwide (and I can
point you to a couple) say, emphatically, that the cost/benefit ratio
of local news operations are too high, the "benefit" being Arbitron
ratings and donations. The circularity: we need more donations to
afford our programming, and we need that specific programming to get
our donations. Demographics drive the programming, just like for-profit
radio, and so we have a local public radio station that, on the whole,
sounds like thousands of others across the land.
But not Mississippi Public Radio, by the way. I just spent a week down
on the Gulf Coast, and I was impressed by the mix of national and local
shows on the station broadcasting out of Pascagoula.
d
p.s. On its staff, WUNC has one corporate relations manager, three
corporate relations assistants and one major gifts officer. For those
of us who aren't corporations or givers of major gifts, they've got an
assistant director of individual giving. You tell me where they
interests lie.
p.p.s. Over the years, the percentage of its operating budget that WUNC
claims to come from "listener contributions" has declined, from 71 %
in a 1997 press release, to somewhere in the 64-67 % range, depending
on which recent source you read. On their website, they say it's 87%
from "individual contributions and business sponsorships." That last
figure is closest to being right. I found a decent accounting of their
income here, in their application for a public radio development award:
http://www.deiworksite.org/current/prdmc/aw_devmar2nd.pdf
It's clear from their paperwork that "membership support" accounts for
at most 50% of the station's operating budget, and corporate
underwriting is fast closing that gap. Here's a list of their corporate
underwriters, if you're interested:
http://wunc.org/business/ourunder.html
... and here's their assessment of their audience, and a few examples
of how they would be happy to advertise your company, with sample
scripts:
http://wunc.org/business/audience.html
greg
greenpower program sounds like a good idea.
so, back to that initial question, what do y'all think of the solar
and wind revenue bond that the voters passed in SF - basically a
public investment in renewable energy that pays for itself over time?
check out the site http://www.votesolar.org/ for some strong
arguments and numbers. do you think is this something that nc warn,
ncsolar, and other groups involved with promoting renewable energy
could get behind?
g
Ron Thigpen <rthi...@nc.rr.com> wrote in message news:<3DD2BFD8...@nc.rr.com>...
> gr...@ibiblio.org wrote:
>
> > If you're at all interested in renewable-energy policy issues, you
> > should check out/join the NC Sustainable Energy Association
> > (www.ncsolar.org). Currently they're working on a "Green Power"
> > initiative which will allow (is that the right word?) consumers to pay
> > $5 extra per month to their utilities in exchange for the utility
> > guaranteeing that the power they're buying was generated with
> > renewable sources.
>
>
> more information on the NC GreenPower program:
> <http://advancedenergy.org/greenpower/facts.html>
>
> there's an open case with the NC Utilities Commission where they are
> hammering out all the details. follow the blow-by-blow action at the
> commsion here: <http://tinyurl.com/2o7q>
>
> looks like the program should roll out about 3-4 months after the
> commission approves it. maybe by summer? there are a lot of details to
> something like this, and not everyone will be 100% pleased with every
> aspect of it, but the upshot is that an average household could spend
> about $40 more a month and cover their entire electricity use without
> contributions to fossil or nuke use. better yet, the money they do
> spend will support small power producers. sources will be solar, wind,
> landfill methane and some form of biomass.
>
> (something like four bucks will buy one block of 100 green kilowatt
> hours. you can buy however many blocks you desire.)
>
> economics of scale and specialization can be good. just for comparison,
> that same $40 would just pay the note for about $6000 worth of PV system
> (20years@6%). tax breaks might get you an $8000 system. that system
> wouldn't come close to generating 1000kwh.
>
> granted, the solar PV component is some of the most expensive, but we
> don't have good wind resources here in the piedmont, i don't live by a
> millstream and wouldn't really want to maintain a backyard methane
> digester. i would however happily support a huge digester at the local
> sewage treatment plant, landfill or hog operation.
>
> all in all, it looks this will be a pretty decent way to reduce your
> household fossil fuel dependency.
>
> --rt
greg
was that renewable energy could drive traditional energy companies to
change in the same way that computing technology has driven change.
what do you think about the renewable energy revenue bond idea at the
votesolar.org website?
g
"3.2.3" <ifo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<3DD2BBD5...@yahoo.com>...
> greg wrote:
> > similiar to IBM eventually accepting the personal computer as
> > the future of their business.
>
> find another analogy. ibm, the original open hardware vendor, loses
> hundreds of millions of dollars on the pc business every year. so much
> so that they've sold off their entire desktop business to another
> company that just stamps an ibm logo on each product. pc's are loss
> leaders for ibm. pc's are only needed by ibm to complete turnkey bids.
> you can't even buy an ibm pc on the street. you have to go to the web or
> a value added reseller. the past, present, and future of ibm are
> midrange machines. pc's have been commodities since about two years
> after ibm starting making them. for about two seconds, a couple of ibm
> executives saw some business potential in pc's, and between them they
> are respsonsible for tens of thousands of layoffs due to the
> consequences of their mistake. i think ibm was glad to have compaq pick
> up the crumbs. the customer service issues of the mass market alone are
> enough to suck the life out of any other profitable sectors.
>
> there's a huge future in massively distributed clusters of pc's. but not
> as an ibm business. cuz anyone can do it with off the shelf parts. ibm's
> effort in this arena was just beaten by their own best customer, who
> rolled their own at a tenth of the cost.
>
> 3
Monroe, of course...
wrote:
> there was a *really* good article in the Atlantic Monthly this year, in
> which the author addressed the ongoing problem in classical-music
> institutions of familiarizing new audiences with older music through a
> critique of classical radio stations. the final question he rasises - one
> WUNC should have asked itself loooong ago - is this: how can radio stations
> bemoan the fact that people are no longer falling in love with classical
> music, when radio stations refuse to play classical music that people can
> actually fall in love with?!? see for yourself:
It's just like Billboard's top 40 only older. The times I'd heard any
of my fave classic music played , it seemed more like a programming
error. The same old same old same old exists at the left of the dial as
well.
monroe(B B B &Mozart-yawn)
Monroe, of course...
wrote:
> if we were to actually focus our conversation on the actual pledge drive as
> an event (and nothing more), i've found that in my experience the people who
> hate listening to it are the people -generally speaking- who feel guilty
> about not making a donation. they feel they should (for whatever reason),
> but something is stopping them from going through with it. for these
> people, every moment of the pledge drive can be pure torture.
Oh the guilt oh the guilt! errr no dear that's not it. I feel even if
I donate, I should get my money's worth-that;s not the case here.
> for those who pledge, the drive can actually be quite enjoyable, believe it
> or not. the announcers even like it. some thrive on it. as corny as it
> sounds, it's a community pulling together to support something they believe
> in. whether anyone else believes in it, or its worth, is moot.
>
> lastly, i'll readily admit to bias, but i'll defend WCPE's programming to my
> death. some may call it 'banal', but i cannot tell you how many people
> discover the station, hear beethoven's 6th symphony for the first time, and
> their world is forever changed. every time -and i'm not exaggerating-
> pachelbel's cannon goes over the air at least one person calls to ask what
> it was they heard. what's more, WCPE is one of the most most listened to
> Internet radio stations online
> (http://www.arbitron.com/newsroom/archive/10_10_02.htm); people are
> discovering the station every day and are enjoying the music.
But we hear Beetho's 6th and Pach's Canon on CPE just like we hear Free
Bird and Stairway to Heaven on any classic rock station. Incessantly.
>
> in fact, *i* still discover new pieces of classical music at WCPE... and
> i've been working there for 4 years. i still cry every time i hear
> saint-saens' organ symphony. i am not tired of mozart. every listen
> affords an opportunity to hear something new in the music. every new
> recording gives a fresh interpretation.
Couldja PLAY some of these new discoveries? My guess is there are only
10 CDs to choose from in your library. I'm not tired of Mozart
either-but I am tired of the same four or five Mozart pieces
again&again&again.
> 'banal' as a descriptor should be reserved for pop music. britney spears.
> of course, some may argue that WCPE's programming approaches 'pop'. i
> invite those people to a duel.
8...9...10...<turn> BANG!!!
>
> finally, the most troubling thing i hear these days is the term "public
> radio" becoming synonymous with "npr." if i could change one thing in this
> world, that would be it.
Point taken.
> i'm not really serious about that, but it does piss me off. public radio,
> in my definition, is a station that relies on public support... to whatever
> degree. WCPE is "public radio" (100% listener-supported) but is certainly
> *not* NPR.
The similarites are enough to keep you from having a designated button
on my dashboard. Oh, well-keep trying.
> i think that was my yearly pro-WCPE rant.
> tune in again next year for more. :)
monroe(could saw my dial off at 89.3 I wouldn't care)
2.71828183
> hate listening to it are the people -generally
> speaking- who feel guilty about not making a
> donation. they feel they should (for whatever
> reason), but something is stopping them from
> going through with it. for these people, every
> moment of the pledge drive can be pure torture.
>
> for those who pledge, the drive can actually be
> quite enjoyable, believe it or not.
Wow. This makes sense.
I have never cared one way or another when it comes to
the topic of beg-a-thons.
Jerry Lewis' television fundraiser always annoyed me,
but then, Jerry Lewis in *anything* has always annoyed
me.
My feeling about beg-a-thons is that they
work--nothing more, nothing less. The last time I
gave an out-of-pocket, strictly-for-donation check to
WXYC was during their last beg-a-thon, ten thousand
years ago. Yeah, I've attended the fund-raising music
events that many seem to feel have "replaced" the
beg-a-thon, but I would do that anyway. And I ordered
a t-shirt while I was trapped in Connecticut. But
just to spontaneously send a check? Nope. Ya know,
another thing is, for those people who are unable to
attend outside events, beg-a-thons do allow a person
to feel they are part of a community, and part of an
event, even tho' they are at home. Or work. Or
whereever.
Given the powerful anti-beg-a-thon sentiment already
expressed in this thread, resist the urge to attack me
for a "pro-beg-a-thon" stance. As I already stated, I
really don't care one way or another, and these are
merely my *personal* opinions, experiences, and
observations: not open for debate, and certainly not a
call to action. Es ist mir *ganz* egal.
I have never understood the strong anti-beg-a-thon
sentiment, but then, I have never felt guilty when I
wasn't able to give, for whatever reason.
Thanks, Christa, for the enlightening theory!
mc²
The guilt of the middle classes is the source for so
much otherwise inexplicable behavior.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site
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gr...@ibiblio.org
I think that around here, the only place where there's a critical mass that might support it (sans rolling blackouts and skyrocketing electric rates a la California) is in Carrboro, so you should talk to Mark Dorosin and/or Mike Nelson (or your other Alderman of choice).
And be prepared to spend a lot of money promoting it. Maybe BP Solar (damn, hard to get away from those oil companies ;-)) has some grant money they could divert to the cause.
The thing about it, though, is that Carrboro doesn't have that many public buildings, and our electric rates are currently so cheap that the return-on-investment would be on the order of 25+ years, which is about the life of the panels with current technology.
So the appeal would have to be on the basis of do-goodism rather than increased reliability or cost savings or any of the things which enabled SF to build a broad enough coalition to pass a bond measure.
Plus, North Carolina has no net-metering provision currently (well, there's a pilot program for 25 users), so the city would either have to go totally off-grid with batteries, or divide its circuits in various complex ways, or other equally complicated and annoying things.
Although maybe if it were a whole town, perhaps the NC PUC would be more receptive to arguments in favor of net metering. But I doubt it.
[Net Metering = the direct intertie of your solar generation with the electric grid, so that your meter spins forwards when you're using more power than you're making, and spins backwards when you're generating more power than you're using. You use the grid as "storage" for your excess generation during the day, and then take power back off the grid at night. In some states this is legal. NC isn't yet one of them.]
So back to what I was saying earlier: I think if your goal is to reduce fossil and nuke dependence, you should (a) invest in solar technology for your own home, and (b) support the Green Power initiative, however compromised it may be.
If you're a renter & want to figure out a way to go even slightly solar (and you don't mind breaking the law a little), email me off-list and I can send you some info about Home Power magazine's "Guerilla Solar" initiative.
Ross
p.s. before you do anything else, though, go buy some compact fluorescent lights and replace your incandescents. Turn yr thermostat down when you're not home & at night when you're sleeping (blankets work nicely). Carpool, bike, or walk (or take free Chapel Hill public transit--can't beat that at *all*). Dick Cheney doesn't want you to conserve energy--isn't that reason enough to do it?
Holden Richards
> conclusion that their decision to bascially discontinue the classical-music
> thing was one of their smarter moves, given that almost everything i heard
> on there was exactly the sort of mellifluous, unengaging crap that makes
> most people hate classical music in the first place. (that's obviously not
> counting the occasional specialty things, of which the "Composers in
> Context" shows were the best.)
>
Geez is he EVER right here. If it was in a CARTOON or played on the guitar
or written by a guy with a funny name (dittersdorf endlessly!) then it was
programmed for WUNC. The single worst classical programming ever.
H.
Phaedra Kelly
And don't forget conserving water. Just b/c the water restrictions have
been lifted and it's raining a lot doesn't mean we're no longer in a
drought.
phaedra
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
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marc faris
> death. some may call it 'banal', but i cannot tell you how many people
> discover the station, hear beethoven's 6th symphony for the first time, and
> their world is forever changed. every time -and i'm not exaggerating-
> pachelbel's cannon goes over the air at least one person calls to ask what
> it was they heard. what's more, WCPE is one of the most most listened to
> Internet radio stations online
> (http://www.arbitron.com/newsroom/archive/10_10_02.htm); people are
> discovering the station every day and are enjoying the music.
i got no real beef with WCPE in especial. what i object to is the
relentless stream of superfluous mush streaming from most classical-music
stations, usually under the guise of themed programming for "drive time,"
"work day," "dinnertime," or what have you - that is, the association of
classical music with relaxation, or more productive work, or (ugh) being
smarter or more "cultured" just because you've got it on. (see all of that
"Mozart Effect"-influenced nonsense for sale at Zany Brainy or wherever.)
again, the problem is that it fosters the illusion that this is what
classical music is all about.
> 'banal' as a descriptor should be reserved for pop music. britney spears.
> of course, some may argue that WCPE's programming approaches 'pop'. i
> invite those people to a duel.
yes, Britney Spears is banal. and according to most Western analytical
models, Beethoven is the opposite of Britney Spears. but after the nth
forced listen with no contextual basis and only the vague understanding that
it somehow "reflects" nature, the Pastoral Symphony is uncharitably forced
to exist on the same level of banality. it's pretty, it makes me happy, i
feel relaxed, and i haven't had to think about it at all...
> in fact, *i* still discover new pieces of classical music at WCPE... and
> i've been working there for 4 years. i still cry every time i hear
> saint-saens' organ symphony. i am not tired of mozart. every listen
> affords an opportunity to hear something new in the music. every new
> recording gives a fresh interpretation.
OK, but *i* don't think Saint-Saens 3 holds up well after ten gazillion
repeated broadcasts (banal? pop-radio format?), and i *am* tired of Mozart.
i like to hear old familiar things - just sank into Debussy's piano music
yesterday, ah man - but i also want to be jarred out of my skin by something
fresh and perhaps not completely friendly. more than that, i think it's
ESSENTIAL that such experiences figure into our day-to-day musical life.
and in ignoring virtuall all the music from the past century (with the
exception of those few works that don't poke holes in the familiar sonic
surface of common-practice music), classical radio continues to fail its
listeners - *and* its espoused art form! - in a very fundamental way.
there are a whole lot of places to lay blame, but i became a composer at
least partially because at crucial moments in my youth, my world was
completely and unexpectedly rocked by Bartok's _Music for Strings Percussion
and Celesta_, John Cage's _Third Construction_, Harry Partch's _Dapne of the
Dunes_ and Glenn Branca's 6th Symphony. (by the way, i heard all this and
more on WTJU in Charlottesville, within that station's classical-music
programming.) i don't think everyone should become a composer. nor do i
think everyone will "like" Cage or Partch (any more than Tony Conrad or
Peter Brötzmann or the Scissor Girls or...). but i *do* think everyone
should hear them, and regularly. until classical radio rejects the idea
that its main fuction is either (a) to lull its audience into blissful
relaxation or (b) to "educate" them in the "great" works of some arbitrary
pre-1900 canon - instead of presenting exciting, thought-provoking programs
of classical music from all periods!!! - it will continue to make very
little difference in the life of most listeners.
[in answering a post about WCPE with a tirade against classical radio in
general, i've quite possibly painted an inaccurate picture of that station's
actual and specific programming practices. (then again, whenever i tune in,
i usually get bored really quickly, so maybe not.) i'd definitely be
interested in hearing more from Christa about this.]
marc
bendy
> And they "slammed" me one time. I fucking hate that. Plus they send
> more junk mail than a credit card company.
It took 2 billing cycles to quit their Earthlink ISP service, and then
another few hours of phone hostility and threats to quit to get the
unused month taken off the bill. But they bought me with another year of
Ben & Jerry's coupons. I'm an ice cream slut. Mostly use phone cards
these days, tho' they are still our phone company.
Bendy
christa
> yes, Britney Spears is banal. and according to most Western analytical
> models, Beethoven is the opposite of Britney Spears. but after the nth
> forced listen with no contextual basis and only the vague understanding that
> it somehow "reflects" nature, the Pastoral Symphony is uncharitably forced
> to exist on the same level of banality. it's pretty, it makes me happy, i
> feel relaxed, and i haven't had to think about it at all...
the merits of in-depth commentary on each piece of music can certianly be
debated. i think you'll probably agree that you wouldn't care to hear a 2-3
minute history lesson on every piece of music you hear. nor does that level
of 'context' make a classical station a better classical music station. in
fact, some might believe that it makes it *worse*, because suddenly you're
talking more and playing less music.
however, at WCPE we do try quite hard to provide some sort of information
about the music and composers we play. we give even more information at our
website (perhaps the best place to take the scholarly lessons ;)
i took an announcing seminar a few months ago. it was emphasized that most
classical music listeners enjoy hearing interesting and brief facts about a
work or a composer, but only as it relates to the listener's life. so yes,
talking about how beethoven's 6th is supposed to connote nature isn't very
good announcing. but saying something like "towards the end of this work
you'll hear beethoven's musical depiction of a thunderstorm"... that's
something people can relate to. (especially if those people live in north
carolina during this stormy autumn!)
blah blah blah. how many people here really care about this? 3, perhaps.
i'll shut up now.
> OK, but *i* don't think Saint-Saens 3 holds up well after ten gazillion
> repeated broadcasts (banal? pop-radio format?), and i *am* tired of Mozart.
i will counter that statement by suggesting that you're perhaps not
listening closely enough. mozart wrote over 600 works. 600! have you
heard them all? we play most of them on the station. you're tired of all
of them?? there is an infinite humor and grace in mozart's music... to tire
of that suggests -to me- that you've stopped looking for qualities like
those and are simply hearing only the notes.
> i like to hear old familiar things - just sank into Debussy's piano music
> yesterday, ah man - but i also want to be jarred out of my skin by something
> fresh and perhaps not completely friendly. more than that, i think it's
> ESSENTIAL that such experiences figure into our day-to-day musical life.
> and in ignoring virtuall all the music from the past century (with the
> exception of those few works that don't poke holes in the familiar sonic
> surface of common-practice music), classical radio continues to fail its
> listeners - *and* its espoused art form! - in a very fundamental way.
here begins where my long-winded tirade on what 'public radio' really means.
fair warning. :)
WCPE is fully listener-supported. the station doesn't receive any tax
money, no federal grants, no university support. nothing. every dollar
that it takes to run the station comes from listeners. i personally think
that is a beautiful thing... to be beholden only to the 6000+ listeners (who
pledged over $480,000 during the last drive, btw). that's a lot of
classical music lovers. most of which do not want the challenge of jarring
music. granted, there are a vocal few who do want some adventurous 20th
century music... but to cater to those few would certainly mean the loss of
many of our members. which means the direct loss of dollars.
so basically, the people who support WCPE want the standard repertoire.
that's why they donate to the station. (they tell us so when they pledge,
and when we issue member surveys.) whether they want to use the music for
relaxation, for wallpaper while they work in their offices, or to soothe
road-rage during their commute... they want music that is lovely and
'classic'.
that said, our music director still manages to find works that are
interesting and obscure within that 'lovely' category. just today she
programmed a work by Liszt called "St. Francis' Sermon to the Birds" that i
don't think i'd ever heard before. i'm guessing you haven't either.
(http://wcpe.org/today.shtml)
anyway, public radio. we play what the public will support. stations like
WXDU and WXYC can afford to play stockhausen. listeners don't affect the
funding of those stations. we are terribly fortunate in this area to be
served by a 24-hour classical station *and* fantastic college stations that
will fill out the balance of what WCPE can't play.
in other words, i don't think we need for one station to give us everything.
when i want classical music, WCPE is there to give it to me. when i want
turkish zither music, i tune to WXYC. what's wrong with that? for this
market, i think WCPE is doing the exact right thing.
> at crucial moments in my youth, my world was
> completely and unexpectedly rocked by Bartok's _Music for Strings Percussion
> and Celesta_, John Cage's _Third Construction_, Harry Partch's _Dapne of the
> Dunes_ and Glenn Branca's 6th Symphony. (by the way, i heard all this and
> more on WTJU in Charlottesville, within that station's classical-music
> programming.)
fwiw, WTJU is a univeristy-affiliated station, much like WXYC or WXDU.
actually, they seem to be more like WUNC with the level of underwriting they
get: (http://wtju.radio.virginia.edu/fund.html)
> i don't think everyone should become a composer. nor do i
> think everyone will "like" Cage or Partch (any more than Tony Conrad or
> Peter Brötzmann or the Scissor Girls or...). but i *do* think everyone
> should hear them, and regularly.
why?
just because it rocked *your* world?
david byrne rocks my world, but i don't even try to impose his music on my
mom. if she wants to explore the things i'm into, she'll seek it out
herself.
that might be a bad analogy, but i like it. i like any analogy that has to
do with david byrne. i like anything that has to do with david byrne, when
you get right down to it.
> until classical radio rejects the idea
> that its main fuction is either (a) to lull its audience into blissful
> relaxation or (b) to "educate" them in the "great" works of some arbitrary
> pre-1900 canon - instead of presenting exciting, thought-provoking programs
> of classical music from all periods!!! - it will continue to make very
> little difference in the life of most listeners.
oh my goodness.
would you be interested in coming out to WCPE and seeing the station? i'm
serious. i'd love to introduce you to some of our volunteers. i'd love to
show you the reams of emails and letters we get describing how much the
station means to our listeners.
it might not make a big difference in *your* life, but i'm not
over-exaggerating when i say that hundreds of people every year tell us that
this station has changed their lives.
again, i should close by saying that all of these opinions are mine, and
were formed by my 4+ years as an employee at WCPE. i'm clearly biased.
but i also volunteer as a DJ as WXDU, and listen to WXYC as well as NPR. i
visit each of those spots on the radio dial for different things. and
that's all good, baby. :)
xo-
c
3.2.3
> blah blah blah. how many people here really care about this? 3, perhaps.
3, perhaps. 3 finds this thread very interesting on all sides. 3 thinks
the last thirty six hours of amch has been more interesting, insightful,
honest, and useful than all the years of the so-called great posts put
together. 3 blames media for giving little to no time to the array of
leftists in the democratic party, which serves the interest of dividing
selectively informed and mal-reasoned leftists plunging into the fray. 3
works in services and already knows this is where the money is today,
but sees no future in it without increasingly complex hardware. 3 is
still undecided about the new gerty album. 3 is kinda hungover today. 3
wishes blandings a happy birthday today. 3 is suspicious of the devil's
work. 3 finds the drop in planetary magnetic forces amusing. 3 shares
marc's taste, but finds christa's rationale superiorly argued. 3 regards
mozart as the classical equivalent of frank zappa, a technically
accomplished blowhard, who extends the same compositional techniques to
600 works of occasionally catchy tedium. but 3 knows this hardly matters
in the greater scheme of things, where large numbers of people make
reasonable arguments for why mozart matters to them. 3 finds great
similarity between this discussion and a kevin dixon cartoon in this
week's indy. 3 feels whether this constitutes real caring is not a
computationally possible question, even if speculative answers are
transmissible. so 3, perhaps.
oh. excuse me. you were talking about some other 3. pardon, please.
sorry.
3
christa
might be interested to learn that we just announced yesterday a new Ogg
Vorbis stream.
check it out: http://wcpe.org/internet.shtml
also, any tips on good sites to post this announcement? there's a whole
slew of geeky open-source people out there who might be interested in
knowing about this stream.
thankee!
greg
> I think that around here, the only place where there's a critical mass that might support it (sans rolling blackouts and skyrocketing electric rates a la California) is in Carrboro, so you should talk to Mark Dorosin and/or Mike Nelson (or your other Alderman of choice).
that's what i was thinking as well. carrboro and/or the surrounding
area could be one of the communities that adopts san fran's template
in the not-too-distant future.
it's interesting that i've emailed a few triangle politicians about
this, and only heard back from mike nelson, who was nice and referred
me to someone on a committee, who i emailed and never heard from.
when i emailed the folks in san fran behind the vote solar initiative,
i heard back immediately from them, with much encouragement to spread
the word about their revenue bond template.
> And be prepared to spend a lot of money promoting it. Maybe BP Solar (damn, hard to get away from those oil companies ;-)) has some grant money they could divert to the cause.
the beauty of the san fran bond is that it doesn't cost the taxpayers
anything, and provides renewable energy for the community. its an idea
that sells itself .
>
> The thing about it, though, is that Carrboro doesn't have that many public buildings, and our electric rates are currently so cheap that the return-on-investment would be on the order of 25+ years, which is about the life of the panels with current technology.
well, if the renewable energy generated pays back the initial
investment, whether its 10 or 25 years, it would seem to be money
well spent - especially when you factor in the unseen costs of fossil
fuel, like dealing with air pollution in 25 years.
> So the appeal would have to be on the basis of do-goodism rather than increased reliability or cost savings or any of the things which enabled SF to build a broad enough coalition to pass a bond measure.
>
the energy problems that san fran has been dealing will likely visit
nc at some point, don't you think? the economic argument for
renewable energy will only get stronger.
>
> Plus, North Carolina has no net-metering provision currently (well, there's a pilot program for 25 users), so the city would either have to go totally off-grid with batteries, or divide its circuits in various complex ways, or other equally complicated and annoying things.
>
> Although maybe if it were a whole town, perhaps the NC PUC would be more receptive to arguments in favor of net metering. But I doubt it.
> So back to what I was saying earlier: I think if your goal is to reduce fossil and nuke dependence, you should (a) invest in solar technology for your own home, and (b) support the Green Power initiative, however compromised it may be.
i think the green power initiative is great - but folks that are
willing to pay their utilities extra for renewable energy would
probably support a public renewable energy revenue bond that pays for
itself , right?
check it out
http://www.votesolar.org/
Robert W Shaw
with maybe a few caveats. ;) The first would be Mozart. George Szell said
that Mozart's music to him was proof there was a god. I would echo that
sentiment.
But I agree, Crista, with marc that classical programming has got to
become a lot more engaging. Even as a high school student, I remember
thinking, why don't these announcers contextualize just a little bit? And
why play Suppe's "Light Cavalry Overture" at all (it's on right now).
That's orchestral music, but it's no more classical than Christina
Aguilera. As in, is it challenging and well written? The answer is no and
no. I have always been disappointed that so much of the banal music makes
it to the set lists, when there is so much incredibly engaging stuff out
there. Why Strauss, Jr., EVER makes it to the playlist (& not the 5:30
waltz, either) bothers me. I once did a mental experiment to see if I
could line up 7 days straight of simply stunning stuff, 24 hours a day,
and it was quite easy just off the top of my head. The value of classical
programming is the opportunity to engage with the most stunning composers
and musical minds out there, and I have no problem saying that the best
composers in classical music are just orders of magnitude better musicians
than most popular music groups out there today. There are very good
musicians and there are mediocre musicians, just like there are incredible
chemists and then there are hacks that peddle ginseng.
I also agree that the packaging of the music on WCPE seems to be designed
to cater to the crowd out there that considers classical to be a nice,
relaxing backdrop. Obviously, for practical reasons these stations have to
be financially solvent and not turn away too many listeners, but I think
that (1) most people want to be challenged more than they are right now,
and (2) there has to be a limit as to how much compromising goes on. If
all this stuff is is something to be played in the background of a waiting
room or something, it's not worth my contributing. (Though I have
maintained my membership even as I have increasingly drifted away from
classical programming, because I believe in working within the system as
opposed to just complaining.)
I have done a mental thought experiment since my senior year of college
(now three years ago) in which I would see if the public radio station I
was listening to (WFDD, then WUNC and WCPE) would ever play Brahms String
Quartet #3, which I played in my senior year. This is a piece of simply
breathtaking originality, beauty, challenge, and craft. I mean just
amazing. As fine a SQ as has ever been written. I have never heard it
played. Meanwhile, I have heard quite a lot of Hummel, Dittersdorf, Suppe,
Salieri, Strauss, Jr., and so on.
And as for modern composition: I am partially taking the side of WCPE
here, marc. I don't pull the punches in thinking that modern composition
of the last 30 years has utterly failed to connect with the listeners and
be culturally relevant. I cannot think of one piece written in the last,
say, 10 years that any reasonable number of people I grew up learning
classical music with were excited about. Sure some people every now and
then get a hankering for a piece, but after heavy academic and government
subsidy this just does not count as the success we need.
WCPE also reflects that. Playing the vast bulk of modern composition
regularly would cause WCPE to go out of business. I don't fault public
radio or the listeners, really, and the reason I have finally found for
why this diconnect exists is the academic and govt. subsidy itself, which
insulates most classical musicians from having to go out there, bust butt
and develop a listener base. (Like I'm doing with my band!) WCPE by and
large does not operate by subsidy, so it has to drum up its business on
its own. For that reason, it remains relevant. My main concern is that
people my generation will have nothing to do with the stuff, because the
formally trained musician community has been so cut off from modern
musical trends that it has failed to build that investment.
The best thing I could recommend for classical programming is to take a
stick of dynamite and blow up whatever definition one might have of
"classical." WCPE should be playing the Edgar Meyer-Yo Yo Ma-Mark O'Connor
stuff, for example, just as a start. There are lots of these type projects
out there, from jazz artists interested in more extended composition to
the Kronos Quartet, who have big followings and who should be played on
classical radio. The only definition of classical that I have in my mind
is that the musicians be really serious about learning their instrument,
not turn their nose up to music theory, and want to make extended
statements, which usually requires composition at some level, that are big
and important.
Ok, enough from me. Back to work!
Robert Shaw (no relation!)
3.2.3
> also, any tips on good sites to post this announcement?
be very careful about submitting an announcement to slashdot.org, which
will print just about anything ogg related. the resulting traffic
overload to your site could crash your server.
3
christa
> be very careful about submitting an announcement to slashdot.org, which
> will print just about anything ogg related. the resulting traffic
> overload to your site could crash your server.
too late. ;)
we were slashdotted last month, though, and emerged unscathed.
Chris Rossi
Has WCPE ever considered some form of block programming? Stick to the
proven formula during office and drive time, for those who use it as
'background' music. but maybe open up the format a bit at night and dig
a little deeper. I bet if folks knew there was a 2 hour a week block of
20th century stuff every week, the folks who were into that kind of
think would look forward to it and tune it in and the folks who aren't,
well, they can easily avoid it. It's only two hours a week.
I imagine there'd be room a lot of different shows each with a different
emphasis that reaches beyond the classical top 40. Y'all look at your
arbitron ratings, so you should have a pretty good idea of what time
during the evening your normal audience is generally tuning out. You
can use that time to target a different group of people.
rossi
Robert W Shaw
I think the main thing that the classical community has to engage with
regarding the problem of modern composition is the fact that if the
classical world is content to stick with music from before 1930, with a
few smatterings of Copland, it will be a long-term major loss. Currently,
the classical world survives on older folks, who have more money and grew
up in a much more classical-friendly world and who lived through time
periods where stunning new music was still being embraced by the
listenership.
People my age (25) have grown up in an entirely different world. For
whatever reason, none of us expects for a modern piece to pull us in the
way that a modern jazz composition or great indie rock song, for example,
can. None of us expects to ever play a concert of exclusively new music
that is sold out and people our age are clammering to get tickets. Up
through the 1970s, there were still big compositions that were met with
lots of emotion from the listening world. That by and large does not
happen anymore.
The result is that people my age are probably not going to make the
transition to WCPE supporters once they start making a good living,
especially when combined with the greatly increased array of interesting
other types of music. So, basically, not playing anything from today
(whether it be movie scores or really cool cross-over projects or Bach
played on synthesizers or other such stuff) means we live on borrowed
time. We trade more support from the present generation of listeners, who
have the money, and lose the younger crowd.
So, in the long term, if stations like WCPE do not develop the new base,
they will have big problems. This is different, of course, from
universities' music programs, which face no danger at all given that the
university will fund them as of right and the university has a massive
endowment and demand for its product that will not go away. I would say
that the same problem exists for orchestras/chamber groups: catering
primarily to the older generation will have serious long-term
consequences.
As you might expect, this is something to which I devote a major portion
of my mental day musing about: I feel like I've finally figured out much
better what the problems are, and now I am concentrating on where the
solutions will be! One thing I feel sure about: the solutions will come
from the "free market," independent of subsidy, which is the space that
WCPE exists in.
Robert
3.2.3
> People my age (25) have grown up in an entirely different world.
maybe i'm reading your whole rant wrong, and even probably so because i
don't know you, but, um, wow. that's so, uh, blind.
your age group is not homogenous. there are plenty of people in it that
like classical music now and/or will in the future. probably more than
who like the same things you like.
and "old" people, well they aren't homogenous, either. they didn't grow
up in some "much more classical-friendly world." people who are in their
60's now were in their 20's in the '60s. people and music were about as
diverse or more so then as now.
> For
> whatever reason, none of us expects for a modern piece to pull us in the
> way that a modern jazz composition or great indie rock song, for example,
> can.
tell that to all the young people in school now to study classical
music. there haven't been any lack of fresh faces on that count. the
"free market" will continue to produce many more classical music
scholars than older people will ever be able to "subsidize."
you're just plain wrong. if there's an age issue here, it's that you're
just too young to know it. it's regarded as classical -because- it's
thought to have some timeless appeal (which has proven pretty true for
hundreds of years), and to represent at least a clear and universally
understandable way of thinking about western fundamentals for arranging
sound (which has proven pretty true for the number of cultures which
have come to appreciate it in some form or another). oddly enough, those
are also the same reasons some find it tedious. but this has always been
so for each generation and geography. the lack or loss of appreciation
by some does not deter the endowment of appreciation by others. only the
"free market" does that.
i don't know of any invisible hand which would drive all classical music
stations to a single model whereby music considered less agreeable by a
better portion of classical music devotees would necessarily feature
alongside a, yes, socially constructed canon of wider convention and
longer acceptance. and not any moreso should i expect such quantum
theoretical forces to inhibit some stations from experimenting with
format. although, those that do experiment simply won't be quite as well
attended by listeners as wcpe. hopefully, there should always be room on
the dial somewhere for the less popular programming often craved by a
fractional youth and often made by, well, old farts. branca and conrad
ain't no spring chickens any more, if you know what i mean, and they
represent the youth wing of this school.
i mean, if you really think your view represents some kind of market
force, don't you think there'd be many more radio stations which would
primarily "engage with [...] the problem of modern composition." i've
heard chadbourne radio. i like it. but i need no crystal ball to tell me
it won't be catching on with statistical significance amongst the kidz
any more than "modern jazz."
> So, in the long term, if stations like WCPE do not develop the new base,
> they will have big problems.
i think you meant to say, if wcpe doesn't develop -you- as a base, they
will have big problems. in which case you'd still be mistaken.
more young people discover classical music everyday if they haven't
already. a new base is continually regenerated without your interest. if
it's not about you, then it's not about you.
> catering
> primarily to the older generation will have serious long-term
> consequences.
it doesn't cater primarily to an older generation. you are mistaken. it
-is appreciated- (the music itself doesn't cater) by the widest of age
spectrums of any music. the person you were addressing in your post is
of your generation. and she's classically trained. and has paid her dues
to modern art, as well.
if you can observe any age-related phenomenon about the appreciation,
it's that older people may have more accumulated wealth with which to
endow their appreciation. but that's a demonstration of the "free
market" rather than a measure of appreciation by younger people. please.
> As you might expect, this is something to which I devote a major portion
> of my mental day musing about: I feel like I've finally figured out much
> better what the problems are, and now I am concentrating on where the
> solutions will be!
i'm spellbound. this is awesome.
> One thing I feel sure about: the solutions will come
> from the "free market," independent of subsidy, which is the space that
> WCPE exists in.
now i know where this kind of stuff comes from.
3
Robert W Shaw
> Robert W Shaw wrote:
>> People my age (25) have grown up in an entirely different world.
> maybe i'm reading your whole rant wrong, and even probably so because i
> don't know you, but, um, wow. that's so, uh, blind.
Ok, you're just not giving me much respect here, which is unfortunate.
This is as major a commitment as I have in life, and I can assure you that
this viewpoint is well thought out enough to be worth considering very
seriously.
I do think things are awfully different now than they were, and I can
point to many, many conversations that I have had with older musicians
that talk about how different things are these days. But some facts--
1. I go to as many chamber music concerts at Duke that I can manage. At
best, the concerts in Reynolds have maybe 5 undergrads going to them. There are
a LOT of folks there, but they are generally over 50. And this is at one
of the top colleges in the country. Those that go to these concerts didn't
come out of a vacuum; they grew up in a world friendly to the classical
style and go to concerts frequently as a result. This despite college kids
only have to walk a few hundred yards to go see the concert for free.
2. I had a long talk with Eric Pritchard once (first violinist of the
Ciompi SQ), and he expressed no small disappointment that his very own
students seldom attend Ciompi SQ concerts. He has many students that have
NEVER been to one. Amazing.
3. One of the things that scared me most about the whole thing occurred in
my senior year of college. After 4 years of trying and slaving virtually
alone in the music department to get fellow students active and forming
good groups, I finally put together a very quality string quartet. The
violist in particular was simply amazing. We played Brahms 3rd SQ, a
particularly difficult piece. It was like pulling teeth getting us to
practice outside the standard 1-2 hours per week, which was insufficient
to get the piece together. However, everyone seemed entirely indifferent
to devoting lots of time to it, and we did not play it as well as we
should have. The other members of the group simply were not excited about
it, even though it was a good group and a fantastic piece. What does this
say? Students will practice their instrument because they are supposed to,
and some will get very good at it, but even for the excellent students
there is not much devotion to it. Fast-forward to right now: I am in a
band that practices 4-5 nights a week, a minimum of 3 hours per night. We
are incredibly devoted to it and put in the extra time to get it to work.
Technically, these band members are not nearly as well trained in music as
the old college SQ, but we are all very excited about it and devoted to
it, because we are playing music that moves people our age.
3. The music students committee (this is Wake Forest--my undergrad). I
tried for about three years to get a committee together and meet regularly
and plan stuff outside what the department plans. The theater dept., for
example, has had a committee like that for years, and it's a devoted
group. Despite all my efforts (and maybe one other person, who also had
this extra commitment despite the obstacles), the thing never got off the
ground. And we are talking about a group of students many of whom wanted
to continue professionally in music! Stunning. This is not limited to WF.
Students at WF were actually more committed to going to their peers'
concerts than I found at the School of the Arts, down the road. Duke's the
same way, so far as I could tell: if there was an active undergrad group
of students planning stuff, I never saw it.
It's pessimistic, but if you challenge me to defend the point with my
experience, here are a few instances. There are a lot of other such little
stories.
My biggest commitment in terms of changing classical music is with
students who enter it with enthusiasm (like my sister, now at Rice), only
to find out at some point that the material they are working with has
incredibly low demand by their peers. So, if you think I am being a
sour-puss with respect to young students, that's not true one bit. It
scares my sister, and it scared me enough to be ready to go the extra mile
to change the system.
I do stand by my economic analysis of the situation, too. Follow the
money, people, follow the money. Three years ago I thought that art
existed in a space that didn't really follow economic principles, but I
was dead wrong about that.
Robert
Robert W Shaw
> p.s. so are you an employee or just a regular contributor trying to justify yr contribution? (to us, or to yourself?)
Hard hitting on amch, I must say. Yes, I am a regular contributor. I do
not contribute as much as I would if I agreed with all of their
programming decisions. Every time I contribute, I ask for more local news
and culture programming, so it's not like I disagree with yall on it. My
only beef is when people make the perfect the enemy of the good. It's
worse when people complain without becoming members. As the station
should, it considers programming suggestions from members much more
seriously.
Even though I have some major issues with their programming choices, I
also enjoy lots of their stuff--NPR News (I'm going to make like a broken
record and repeat that it's the best news source out there in my
judgment), BBC (not nearly as in depth but still good), Fresh Air,
CarTalk, This American Life, Back Porch Music. All outstanding programs.
(BPM is good in that it features new releases of acoustic stuff, much
moreso than the Sunday morning WXYC DJ's--they just have a different
agenda and often dig up old stuff from Wilson Library, for ex.; and I also
think that Allison Krause is a super musician and enjoy the fact that the
records are well-made, actually...)
I post here because I think that this is a place where people engage in
these issue and want to change things, not make weird attacks like the
above. I'm not talking to myself.
RWS
gr...@ibiblio.org
Just trying to get at the root of yr obvious bias. There was some offlist speculation as to yr employment situation so I'd think you'd be glad to have that cleared up. It wouldn't have been the first time that someone had posted to UseNet with an ulterior motive. ;-)
It's obviously pointless to argue specifics or to try to go into detail, again, as to why many of us feel that your citing of shows like Back Porch Music weakens your case. But I will point out, as other posters have, that you're better off listening to WXDU on Sundays from 12-2 and 7-9, if you're interested in bluegrass/oldtime/country/acoustic music. Especially if you're interested in the live performance of said music, which is something that you're rarely going to get on WUNC, despite their enormous budget & posh studios.
Full disclosure: I work at WXDU. I also have grown to dislike most of that music, and many of its fans, over the past few years, so I think that balances any positive bias I may have as an XDU DJ ;-)
Ross
p.s. other-thread-tie-in -- the NBC Orchestra stopped regular TV broadcasts in 1963 (Toscanini retired in 1954 or so, I think). Regardless of what they were performing, it seems clear to me that people of my parents' generation *were* more exposed to orchestral music than kids of the current generation. HOWEVER, this doesn't mean that all that many more people were active listeners and supporters of *classical* music. In fact, speaking in percentages, I'd say that if nothing else, the proportion of classical listeners who are engaged & educated about the music is much higher now than it was in the first half of this century, and perhaps that's a good thing, even if the overall numbers are smaller. Having your music-of-choice dumbed-down as the national wallpaper isn't necessarily something to get excited over--as many people, including yourself, have argued. Yet that was the experience of previous generations. It's not like the concert halls were overflowing to hear works by
Ives--people were attending pops concerts and the classical top-10--the same stuff you complain about hearing on classical radio now.
On 15 Nov 2002 02:32:50 -0500, ch-s...@listserv.unc.edu said:
>
>
>> p.s. so are you an employee or just a regular contributor trying to justify yr contribution? (to us, or to yourself?)
>I post here because I think that this is a place where people engage in
Duncan Murrell
> make the perfect the enemy of the good
I am the enemy of the bad. Save your aphorisms.
You're a smart guy, but you have an unnerving quality -- you assume
that the things you consider good and valuable are, ipso facto, good or
valuable absolutely, whether it's WUNC or it's Brahms's 3rd String
Quartet, and consequently you are often "scared" by the willful
ignorance that surrounds you on all sides.
This will drive you to drink, my friend.
d
Kate
with the free ice cream and the armchair activism, but
the junk mail drove me away. I found it un-funny that
an organization that prints its bills on recycled
paper and makes this big deal about the environment
sent me at least 10 sheets of unsolicited mail a
month, mostly asking me to get other people to join.
And I told the customer service rep that when I
disconnected, but she didn't seem to care.
Also, their bills were getting even longer than my
regular phone bill (more paper!), with all the
self-promotion they put in them. And it's really hard
to get away--I've moved twice since I used their long
distance, and I still get mail from them.
But if you make enough long distance calls to make WA
worthwhile to someone, go you.
kate