>>"It was," Palmer concludes with a sigh, "quite a learning experience."
I was just having this conversation with someone last week - one of the reasons clubs often close is that it's a huge learning curve (which booking agent's to trust, what local band's draw, etc.) that most venue's can't sustain that pace very long...glenn
Wednesday, January 2, 2008 Hideaway soon to hide away
Just before midnight Monday, as Southern Culture on the Skids played for a packed house at Raleigh's Hideaway Music Hall, the electricity cut off for about 45 minutes. Power was eventually restored and new year's eve festivities continued. But maybe that was an omen, because word has come down that Hideaway is closing. The Hideaway restaurant is already shut down, with the live-music operation soon to follow after a few more weeks of shows.
"When I started this place, I used to joke that I was tired of going to music venues that were dirty boxes," says owner Palmer Stacy. "Now I realize why that is, so that the overhead is not as high as mine ended up being. But we had a good run and we'll try to keep it going a few more weeks with the music. From the beginning, it was a mismatch between the cost of running the place and the amount of people coming. We had some great shows and some good crowds, just not enough to support a building of that size and expense.
"It was," Palmer concludes with a sigh, "quite a learning experience."
Hideaway opened on Capitol Boulevard in October 2006 amid high hopes, a barbecue joint that did country and twangy roots rock shows. Wayne "The Train" Hancock (scheduled to return on Jan. 25), Bottlerockets, Blue Mountain, and Billy Joe Shaver were among the acts to play there. But Hideaway struggled to break even and rumors swirled around it for the past year. When booker Marianne Taylor left for South by Southwest last March, Palmer told her that Hideaway might not be open when she returned. Still, she had hopes the club could hang in there.
"It's upsetting," Taylor says. "The first four months or so, there was no soul to the place. Then last January, the vibe got good and it started to feel like home. I'm still holding out for a miracle of someone stepping up so my music can stay at Hideaway."
Taylor guesses Hideaway will be open the next three weekends. Beyond that, she'll move Hideaway shows to other clubs in the area. Upcoming Hideaway shows that might be in search of new venues include Don Dixon on Jan. 26; Asylum Street Spankers on Jan. 29; Malcolm Holcombe on Jan. 31; Unknown Hinson on Feb. 2; Jason Ringenberg/Farmer Jason on Feb. 8-9; Jesse Dayton on Feb. 16; and NRBQ pianist Terry Adams on March 15.
I'm sorry to read this. We were there on Monday night and it was a CRAZY night. I thought for sure that Rick's incredible version of "Meximelt" is what fried all the electricity in that portion of the building.
I went to bed on Mon night wondering about the irrelevant Brewery, in fact. How can Raleigh sustain 4 small live music venues? (Brewery, Pour House, Lincoln, and Hideaway). Well, I'm sorry to hear this news, though.
> >>"It was," Palmer concludes with a sigh, "quite a learning experience."
> I was just having this conversation with someone last week - one of > the reasons clubs often close is that it's a huge learning curve > (which booking agent's to trust, what local band's draw, etc.) that > most venue's can't sustain that pace very long...glenn
> Wednesday, January 2, 2008 > Hideaway soon to hide away
> Just before midnight Monday, as Southern Culture on the Skids played > for a packed house at Raleigh's Hideaway Music Hall, the electricity > cut off for about 45 minutes. Power was eventually restored and new > year's eve festivities continued. But maybe that was an omen, because > word has come down that Hideaway is closing. The Hideaway restaurant > is already shut down, with the live-music operation soon to follow > after a few more weeks of shows.
> "When I started this place, I used to joke that I was tired of going > to music venues that were dirty boxes," says owner Palmer Stacy. "Now > I realize why that is, so that the overhead is not as high as mine > ended up being. But we had a good run and we'll try to keep it going a > few more weeks with the music. From the beginning, it was a mismatch > between the cost of running the place and the amount of people coming. > We had some great shows and some good crowds, just not enough to > support a building of that size and expense.
> "It was," Palmer concludes with a sigh, "quite a learning experience."
> Hideaway opened on Capitol Boulevard in October 2006 amid high hopes, > a barbecue joint that did country and twangy roots rock shows. Wayne > "The Train" Hancock (scheduled to return on Jan. 25), Bottlerockets, > Blue Mountain, and Billy Joe Shaver were among the acts to play there. > But Hideaway struggled to break even and rumors swirled around it for > the past year. When booker Marianne Taylor left for South by Southwest > last March, Palmer told her that Hideaway might not be open when she > returned. Still, she had hopes the club could hang in there.
> "It's upsetting," Taylor says. "The first four months or so, there was > no soul to the place. Then last January, the vibe got good and it > started to feel like home. I'm still holding out for a miracle of > someone stepping up so my music can stay at Hideaway."
> Taylor guesses Hideaway will be open the next three weekends. Beyond > that, she'll move Hideaway shows to other clubs in the area. Upcoming > Hideaway shows that might be in search of new venues include Don Dixon > on Jan. 26; Asylum Street Spankers on Jan. 29; Malcolm Holcombe on > Jan. 31; Unknown Hinson on Feb. 2; Jason Ringenberg/Farmer Jason on > Feb. 8-9; Jesse Dayton on Feb. 16; and NRBQ pianist Terry Adams on > March 15.
Don't forget Slim's, and the Downtown Event Center (aka the Raleigh Music Hall), plus that evangelical church that moved into the old Jillian's building & is apparently having shows of the alt/emo variety (apparently not just overtly christian bands, either, though I wonder if one would be able to attend a show there without getting churched in some way . . . thankfully the bands they're booking don't really interest me, so I won't be obligated to find out).
Plus the Berkeley, which is where a lot of the Hideaway shows are being moved to. Also Volume 11 for all your metal needs.
As far as the Brewery is concerned, a glance at their schedule (http://www.brewerync.com/main/e107_plugins/calendar_menu/event.php), which is packed with names I don't recognize, but which sound like the sorts of names that hardrock/"punk"/emo/altrock bands might select for themselves, suggests that they're marketing to a demographic that wants to go out & drink & hear loud rock bands once or twice a week. Plus it's walking distance from NCSU. Relevant? Not to you, nor apparently to me, but then I don't go out often enough to support a venue all by myself either.
Compare that to the Hideaway, which booked a pretty narrow range of genres . . . unfortunately a range (roots to bluegrass to alt.country) that tends to appeal to a slightly older audience, one that might only go out to shows once a month. Plus a lot of those performers are older & have been around a bit longer, and thus are more likely to come with [higher] guarantees.
If you're gonna book shows that appeal to people who might only go to 1 or 2 shows a month, you need to book a wider *range* of music, so that the combination of the different 2-shows-a-month demographics still translates into a semi-full house every time you open.
Either that or make more money on food.
It's a pity about the Hideaway, but based on the bands they were booking, combined with the mixed reviews of their food, I've been assuming they'd go under for a while now. Which is too bad, because the basic idea of a multi-income venue should be a better business model than the old single-purpose smelly-black-box rockclub. Unfortunately, the details of the implementation still count for a lot.
Hoopla wrote: > I'm sorry to read this. We were there on Monday night and it was a > CRAZY night. I thought for sure that Rick's incredible version of > "Meximelt" is what fried all the electricity in that portion of the > building.
> I went to bed on Mon night wondering about the irrelevant Brewery, in > fact. How can Raleigh sustain 4 small live music venues? (Brewery, > Pour House, Lincoln, and Hideaway). Well, I'm sorry to hear this news, > though.
> Dana
> On Jan 2, 5:03 pm, local...@gmail.com wrote: >>>> "It was," Palmer concludes with a sigh, "quite a learning experience." >> I was just having this conversation with someone last week - one of >> the reasons clubs often close is that it's a huge learning curve >> (which booking agent's to trust, what local band's draw, etc.) that >> most venue's can't sustain that pace very long...glenn
>> Wednesday, January 2, 2008 >> Hideaway soon to hide away
>> Just before midnight Monday, as Southern Culture on the Skids played >> for a packed house at Raleigh's Hideaway Music Hall, the electricity >> cut off for about 45 minutes. Power was eventually restored and new >> year's eve festivities continued. But maybe that was an omen, because >> word has come down that Hideaway is closing. The Hideaway restaurant >> is already shut down, with the live-music operation soon to follow >> after a few more weeks of shows.
>> "When I started this place, I used to joke that I was tired of going >> to music venues that were dirty boxes," says owner Palmer Stacy. "Now >> I realize why that is, so that the overhead is not as high as mine >> ended up being. But we had a good run and we'll try to keep it going a >> few more weeks with the music. From the beginning, it was a mismatch >> between the cost of running the place and the amount of people coming. >> We had some great shows and some good crowds, just not enough to >> support a building of that size and expense.
>> "It was," Palmer concludes with a sigh, "quite a learning experience."
>> Hideaway opened on Capitol Boulevard in October 2006 amid high hopes, >> a barbecue joint that did country and twangy roots rock shows. Wayne >> "The Train" Hancock (scheduled to return on Jan. 25), Bottlerockets, >> Blue Mountain, and Billy Joe Shaver were among the acts to play there. >> But Hideaway struggled to break even and rumors swirled around it for >> the past year. When booker Marianne Taylor left for South by Southwest >> last March, Palmer told her that Hideaway might not be open when she >> returned. Still, she had hopes the club could hang in there.
>> "It's upsetting," Taylor says. "The first four months or so, there was >> no soul to the place. Then last January, the vibe got good and it >> started to feel like home. I'm still holding out for a miracle of >> someone stepping up so my music can stay at Hideaway."
>> Taylor guesses Hideaway will be open the next three weekends. Beyond >> that, she'll move Hideaway shows to other clubs in the area. Upcoming >> Hideaway shows that might be in search of new venues include Don Dixon >> on Jan. 26; Asylum Street Spankers on Jan. 29; Malcolm Holcombe on >> Jan. 31; Unknown Hinson on Feb. 2; Jason Ringenberg/Farmer Jason on >> Feb. 8-9; Jesse Dayton on Feb. 16; and NRBQ pianist Terry Adams on >> March 15.
On Jan 3, 7:08 pm, gr...@ibiblio.org (grady) wrote:
> It's a pity about the Hideaway, but based on the bands they were > booking, combined with the mixed reviews of their food, I've been > assuming they'd go under for a while now. Which is too bad, because the > basic idea of a multi-income venue should be a better business model > than the old single-purpose smelly-black-box rockclub. Unfortunately, > the details of the implementation still count for a lot.
> Ross
i wonder if things would have been different if they'd tried bake cookies and not bbq. far less overhead. but seriously, loco pops and rock would rock even more than just loco pops alone.
>>>Which is too bad, because the basic idea of a multi-income venue should be a better business model than the old single-purpose smelly-black-box rockclub. Unfortunately, the details of the implementation still count for a lot.
I would agree, three years in and I continue to try and think of ways to make money the 20 hours a day Local 506 is not open to the public. But I think ultimately something has to give to make this work, most likely on both ends of the business. For example, soundcheck time would normally correlate around dinner time, making for an unpleasant dining experience (and probably an unpleasant soundcheck.) Or, a smaller PA to accommodate more tables but sacrificing quality of sound.
I do know that we often get the comment "wow, a real rock club" from many touring acts which suggests that not only are there many places out there running duel businesses, but also that most bands prefer venues dedicated to live music. With that said, the so-called value of a dedicated rock club (full PA, lighting system, elevated stage, etc.) then becomes another part of a clubs overhead expense as I've found patrons are not willing to pay more to see a band at Local 506 than they are to see them at some of the smaller rooms in town.
>>>>Which is too bad, because the basic idea of a multi-income venue >>>>should be a better business model than the old single-purpose >>>>smelly-black-box rockclub. Unfortunately, the details of the >>>>implementation still count for a lot.
> I would agree, three years in and I continue to try and think of ways > to make money the 20 hours a day Local 506 is not open to the public. > But I think ultimately something has to give to make this work, most > likely on both ends of the business. For example, soundcheck time > would normally correlate around dinner time, making for an unpleasant > dining experience (and probably an unpleasant soundcheck.) Or, a > smaller PA to accommodate more tables but sacrificing quality of > sound.
A smaller PA with distributed speakers may not sacrifice so much in sound quality if done right, but it's still an expense. The down side is that there are more parts to 'go wrong.'
> I do know that we often get the comment "wow, a real rock club" from > many touring acts which suggests that not only are there many places > out there running duel businesses, but also that most bands prefer > venues dedicated to live music. With that said, the so-called value > of a dedicated rock club (full PA, lighting system, elevated stage, > etc.) then becomes another part of a clubs overhead expense as I've > found patrons are not willing to pay more to see a band at Local 506 > than they are to see them at some of the smaller rooms in town.
> glenn
I think most restaurants that suddenly become night clubs at a later hour before they turn into pumpkins again only hurt whatever scene there is to be had, and seldom really help things. Then again, bands that want to support this kind of thing are also complicit in that case (IMNSHFO). I see a lot of that being driven by ABC laws, but maybe that's just me.
Do you say this in reference to restaurants that are primarily restaurants, and thus the owners don't really give a crap about music, and thus they make unreasonable demands of the bands and are generally jerks?
Or are you suggesting there's something inherently wrong with food and rock music sharing a space? Because I would want to disagree with the latter, but I suspect you're thinking more along the lines of the former.
david gourley wrote: > I think most restaurants that suddenly become night clubs at a later hour > before they turn into pumpkins again only hurt whatever scene there is to > be had, and seldom really help things. Then again, bands that want to > support this kind of thing are also complicit in that case (IMNSHFO). I > see a lot of that being driven by ABC laws, but maybe that's just me.
> Do you say this in reference to restaurants that are primarily > restaurants, and thus the owners don't really give a crap about music, > and thus they make unreasonable demands of the bands and are generally > jerks?
Restaurants that are primarily restaurants. Since I don't play those places, I have no idea of the apparent jerk factor. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't... you tell me. If they are, then it's probably worse.
> Or are you suggesting there's something inherently wrong with food and > rock music sharing a space? Because I would want to disagree with the > latter, but I suspect you're thinking more along the lines of the > former.
Not necessarily, but I think trying to be all things to all people isn't too great in a profitable sense for the musicians. So yes, your thinking would be correct of my view in my thinking more in terms of the former. Again, I said that I thought some of this was due to ABC laws, so some places (ie restaurants) didn't have to become private clubs in order to server liquour with their rawk.
Are bands really making a lot of money playing these places, anyway?
>> I think most restaurants that suddenly become night clubs at a later >> hour before they turn into pumpkins again only hurt whatever scene >> there is to be had, and seldom really help things. Then again, bands >> that want to support this kind of thing are also complicit in that >> case (IMNSHFO). I see a lot of that being driven by ABC laws, but >> maybe that's just me. > -- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill -- > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
I have to agree with David. I think the ABC laws are a big deterrent. I remember the days, granted I know they weren't complying with such laws, when you could pass by the 506, see some you liked and get in for a decent price with no membership. No...unfortunately I don't have the extra money to pay to see bands at the 506 or pay for price increase on "cheap" beer. I went to a show at the 506, one that I had been super excited about, and by the time I had gotten in bought a beer and a t-shirt, of the band I wanted to see but only saw half there set due to a crazy early start time, I had spent $30. I bought cheap beer! Now I don't know about you but I don't make that kind of money. I'm not try to single out the 506...so sorry if it seems that way, but that is why I will go to the other smaller place to see music, because I'm not paying $12 to see a band and over $2 for a PBR/ Highlife.
All I do know, and I know I might seem naive, is that those dumpy little clubs, that aren't real "rock" clubs, have hosted some amazing music. The Thrones....a band that I love to death can't get a show in this area..except in a dumpy little dive. Joe Preston told me himself that his booking agent had the hardest time booking in the area. The show was packed. Also those places don't charge over $7 to see a show. I'm getting a little ahead of myself. I guess I'm saying I want to support local music, but I feel I'm paying a premium to do so and I can't afford that premium. Nuf said.
P.S. Lizard and Snake....restaurant + bad-ass rock club.
> > Do you say this in reference to restaurants that are primarily > > restaurants, and thus the owners don't really give a crap about music, > > and thus they make unreasonable demands of the bands and are generally > > jerks?
> Restaurants that are primarily restaurants. Since I don't play those > places, I have no idea of the apparent jerk factor. Maybe they are, > maybe they aren't... you tell me. If they are, then it's probably worse.
> > Or are you suggesting there's something inherently wrong with food and > > rock music sharing a space? Because I would want to disagree with the > > latter, but I suspect you're thinking more along the lines of the > > former.
> Not necessarily, but I think trying to be all things to all people isn't > too great in a profitable sense for the musicians. So yes, your thinking > would be correct of my view in my thinking more in terms of the former. > Again, I said that I thought some of this was due to ABC laws, so some > places (ie restaurants) didn't have to become private clubs in order to > server liquour with their rawk.
> Are bands really making a lot of money playing these places, anyway?
> david
> > david gourley wrote:
> >> I think most restaurants that suddenly become night clubs at a later > >> hour before they turn into pumpkins again only hurt whatever scene > >> there is to be had, and seldom really help things. Then again, bands > >> that want to support this kind of thing are also complicit in that > >> case (IMNSHFO). I see a lot of that being driven by ABC laws, but > >> maybe that's just me. > > -- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill -- > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
Last time I checked, bands aren't making a lot of money playing any places anymore, unless they're out-of-towners with a guarantee, in which case it's the club that winds up taking the bath, unless it's the Cradle, which still pretty much gets first refusal on any tour, and thus can cherry-pick the stuff that's going to do well.
david gourley wrote: > Are bands really making a lot of money playing these places, anyway?
You only have to buy the membership once, you know.
As far as show prices go, it has been *years* since we've had the "shows are too expensive" discussion. Now we have the internet to assist us. Let's pick 3 random upcoming shows:
Super Furry Animals/Fiery Furnaces: Cat's Cradle: $15 9:30 Club DC: $17 Variety Playhouse, Atlanta: $15
Dan Deacon/Ultimate Reality: Local 506: $10 Eyedrum, ATL: $10 Emo's, Austin: $10
Marah: Local 506: $10 9:30 Club DC: $15 Smith's Olde Bar, ATL: $12
It would appear, based on a cursory & non-scientific survey, that our 90s-era advantage on ticket prices vs. the next-closest tour stops (ATL & DC) is still in place for some shows, but we're at parity for smaller/more-esoteric shows.
Either way you slice it, if shows are too expensive for you & the band is from out of town, it's likely not the venue's fault. Perhaps it's the fault of your employer, or the economy as a whole (this is where, when I'm listening to economic news on NPR in the car, I yell out, in a weird angry accent, "George BUUUUUSH!") that your wages haven't kept pace with inflation over the past 8 years.
Ditto the price of beer, I guess.
I'm not trying to discount your appreciation of smaller/cheaper venues & shows, as I love 'em too. Perhaps I'm suggesting that the difference nowadays is that some bands wish to break even on tours, and some of those bands are the bands playing the Cradle and 506, and some bands still treat touring as a money-losing adventure, and they're the ones playing those smaller clubs for $5, sleeping on floors, and seeing whatever tiny profit they make inevitably burned away at the auto-repair shop in Tucson in the form of a new rear axle.
l.sward wrote: > I have to agree with David. I think the ABC laws are a big deterrent. > I remember the days, granted I know they weren't complying with such > laws, when you could pass by the 506, see some you liked and get in > for a decent price with no membership. No...unfortunately I don't have > the extra money to pay to see bands at the 506 or pay for price > increase on "cheap" beer. I went to a show at the 506, one that I had > been super excited about, and by the time I had gotten in bought a > beer and a t-shirt, of the band I wanted to see but only saw half > there set due to a crazy early start time, I had spent $30. I bought > cheap beer! Now I don't know about you but I don't make that kind of > money. I'm not try to single out the 506...so sorry if it seems that > way, but that is why I will go to the other smaller place to see > music, because I'm not paying $12 to see a band and over $2 for a PBR/ > Highlife.
> All I do know, and I know I might seem naive, is that those dumpy > little clubs, that aren't real "rock" clubs, have hosted some amazing > music. The Thrones....a band that I love to death can't get a show in > this area..except in a dumpy little dive. Joe Preston told me himself > that his booking agent had the hardest time booking in the area. The > show was packed. Also those places don't charge over $7 to see a show. > I'm getting a little ahead of myself. I guess I'm saying I want to > support local music, but I feel I'm paying a premium to do so and I > can't afford that premium. Nuf said.
> P.S. Lizard and Snake....restaurant + bad-ass rock club.
>>> Do you say this in reference to restaurants that are primarily >>> restaurants, and thus the owners don't really give a crap about music, >>> and thus they make unreasonable demands of the bands and are generally >>> jerks? >> Restaurants that are primarily restaurants. Since I don't play those >> places, I have no idea of the apparent jerk factor. Maybe they are, >> maybe they aren't... you tell me. If they are, then it's probably worse.
>>> Or are you suggesting there's something inherently wrong with food and >>> rock music sharing a space? Because I would want to disagree with the >>> latter, but I suspect you're thinking more along the lines of the >>> former. >> Not necessarily, but I think trying to be all things to all people isn't >> too great in a profitable sense for the musicians. So yes, your thinking >> would be correct of my view in my thinking more in terms of the former. >> Again, I said that I thought some of this was due to ABC laws, so some >> places (ie restaurants) didn't have to become private clubs in order to >> server liquour with their rawk.
>> Are bands really making a lot of money playing these places, anyway?
>> david
>>> david gourley wrote:
>>>> I think most restaurants that suddenly become night clubs at a later >>>> hour before they turn into pumpkins again only hurt whatever scene >>>> there is to be had, and seldom really help things. Then again, bands >>>> that want to support this kind of thing are also complicit in that >>>> case (IMNSHFO). I see a lot of that being driven by ABC laws, but >>>> maybe that's just me. >>> -- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill -- >>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
gr...@ibiblio.org (grady) put forth the notion in...news:477FA0CD.5070502 @ibiblio.org:
> Last time I checked, bands aren't making a lot of money playing any > places anymore, unless they're out-of-towners with a guarantee, in which > case it's the club that winds up taking the bath, unless it's the > Cradle, which still pretty much gets first refusal on any tour, and thus > can cherry-pick the stuff that's going to do well.
I was afraid you'd say that. Too bad there aren't better/new models to remedy that situation.
I guess I was thinking I'd hate to see these 'part-time rock places' (restaurants with one foot in the door) put a dent in any efforts that Glenn is making, because I see him as putting in a lot of good hard work to make things happen. (At least based on what I've seen/heard, I've never met him). It's a double-edged sword - they dilute the club scene yet still give people a performance outlet.
What restaurants have shows too? Really I am racking my brain here but I can't really think of any. Other than Lizard and Snake I can't think of any from the past, but I wasn't here so I don't know. La Terazza had food maybe?
Hideaway, but it seems to be a consensus that part of their problem is that they were neither restaurant nor venue. I am sad for them, and I have no idea why it works so well in Austin (and it doesn't always work, I saw shitloads of those places tank over the years), but I don't see their model as destructive to Glenn's fine efforts.
I have never been to the Pour House but I assume they have food but I don't think of them as a restaurant at all. Six-String Cafe? Are they still open? I dig a sandwich sometimes, but Nightlight is not a restaurant and technically the sandwich came from Skylight.
So really, what restaurants with shows are y'all thinking of, and do you think if we book some shows there we can get dinner half price and a free schlitz?
> What restaurants have shows too? Really I am racking my brain here
I guess the cafe Pittsboro and Weaver St? I went to see some old time jams at that Mexican food place down by the laundrymat on Jones Ferry near 54 a long time ago. I seen some vegan potlucks at Bull City Headquarters and at Chaz's. Sorry, still thinking...
Sadlacks! and Tir Na Nog (though their food is not so fabulous in my view). they have been stepping up a bit to fill the gaping hole left by Kings' demise. and the Berkeley Cafe Broad St. has some stuff... and doesn't the JJoyce sometimes have music? i haven't gone to hear any there, but it filters next door. and for those who enjoy the guitar and keyboard stylings of those who play there, i have heard it said on the radio that the irregardless has live music. and dancing - i don't know what that involves. that is just a few from my racked brain. of them all, i think sadlacks food is a really good deal and surprisingly tasty. their homemade potato chips are yummy. anna
On Jan 6, 2008, at 7:07 PM, ansmith...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> What restaurants have shows too? Really I am racking my brain here
> I guess the cafe Pittsboro and Weaver St? I went to see some old time > jams at that Mexican food place down by the laundrymat on Jones Ferry > near 54 a long time ago. I seen some vegan potlucks at Bull City > Headquarters and at Chaz's. Sorry, still thinking...
I concur. After living in the "DC Metro Area" and spending lots of time in Philadelphia for shows it's always amazing to me how cheap everything is back down here. AND you don't have to pay crazy amounts of money for your cancer sticks either.
>>>All I do know, and I know I might seem naive, is that those dumpy
little clubs, that aren't real "rock" clubs, have hosted some amazing music.
My comments weren't meant to dis the smaller clubs - I love seeing bands at The Cave, but only when you can actually see them. The last time I went to 'see' Red Collar, I could only watch them on the video monitor because of the size of the crowd. That's why I personally feel that a 'stage' has value - I know I've avoided a few shows at smaller rooms because I figured that instead of watching the band I'd more likely be watching the backsides of their biggest fans.
Basically, the bigger the venue, the more it cost to appease the number of people who can attend. Just last month I bought a smaller PA (for our free-for-all shows) that is the equivalent of what most of the other rooms have; however, I also spent three times that amount making upgrades to our bigger PA (and easily spend that amount every 6-8 weeks on repairs, etc.)
>>>The Thrones....a band that I love to death can't get a show in
this area..except in a dumpy little dive. Joe Preston told me himself that his booking agent had the hardest time booking in the area.
It's hard to book Chapel Hill because there are so many local bands here. And many local musicians are in multiple bands. So, if the average musician in this area is in two bands, that's going to make it twice as hard for anyone to get a show (not to mention, twice as hard to get played on the radio, get written up in the Indy, get people to buy your CD, etc.)
Likewise, because of our location (between DC and Atlanta, centrally located within NC,) we get tons of touring acts. I just checked my generic booking email address (which is for unsolicited booking requests) and 12 bands contacted me over the last three days. That's an average of four bands a day, and we normally only book three a night (ie: supply exceeds opportunities) - and again, this is the unsolicited emails, not the booking agents and established local acts I'm also talking to. Not every act is going to get a show because of basic economics. And believe me, there are plenty of established acts we miss out on because the date is already booked with another act. For example, I have some dates in March (pre/post-SXSW) that I have 8 different touring packages all wanting the same date. Hopefully some of those end up in the triangle, but some of those will likely end up in other cities.
>>>The show was packed. Also those places don't charge over $7 to see a show.
I'm getting a little ahead of myself. I guess I'm saying I want to support local music,
FYI, ticket prices are a reflection of the cost of the show. I set my ticket prices based on the guarantee of the acts. And bands set their guarantees based on their cost. So, when you go see a show at the Cradle, part of your ticket price is to cover those buses outside, those roadies running around with flashlights, etc.
As far as local shows, I'm always willing to accept a free show - and cover the cost of the show out of the bar, which I assume will do more because 'free' normally equals more people. However, even local bands have costs (practice space, equipment, fliers, recording costs, etc.) so I also understand when bands want to charge (however, I will say that I think bands should play for free until they have a decent following - as I always say, cover charges are the biggest deterrent for bands to get new fans.) Even still, it's rare for a locals to charge more than $6.
>but I feel I'm paying a premium to do so and I can't afford that premium. Nuf said.
Right, which brings us back to the original message. What you view as a 'premium', clubs view as cost of doing business as there is pretty much a hidden cost to every element of a club. For you to enjoy that beer, clubs have to pay for an ABC license (plus a $4 tax on every liquor bottle), for you to not sit in silence between bands, clubs have to pay BMI/APSCAP licenses, for you to not freeze/burn up, clubs have to pay expensive utility bills (which also helps keep that beer cold), and for you to hear the band clearly, clubs have to pay a soundguy. And, most of all, for clubs to get the best talent possible, clubs have to pay the artists.
Bottomline: If rock clubs were making a so-called premium, I don't think so many would be closing, would they?
> >>>All I do know, and I know I might seem naive, is that those dumpy
> little clubs, that aren't real "rock" clubs, have hosted some amazing > music.
> My comments weren't meant to dis the smaller clubs - I love seeing > bands at The Cave, but only when you can actually see them. The last > time I went to 'see' Red Collar, I could only watch them on the video > monitor because of the size of the crowd. That's why I personally > feel that a 'stage' has value - I know I've avoided a few shows at > smaller rooms because I figured that instead of watching the band I'd > more likely be watching the backsides of their biggest fans.
> Basically, the bigger the venue, the more it cost to appease the > number of people who can attend. Just last month I bought a smaller > PA (for our free-for-all shows) that is the equivalent of what most of > the other rooms have; however, I also spent three times that amount > making upgrades to our bigger PA (and easily spend that amount every > 6-8 weeks on repairs, etc.)
> >>>The Thrones....a band that I love to death can't get a show in
> this area..except in a dumpy little dive. Joe Preston told me himself > that his booking agent had the hardest time booking in the area.
> It's hard to book Chapel Hill because there are so many local bands > here. And many local musicians are in multiple bands. So, if the > average musician in this area is in two bands, that's going to make it > twice as hard for anyone to get a show (not to mention, twice as hard > to get played on the radio, get written up in the Indy, get people to > buy your CD, etc.)
> Likewise, because of our location (between DC and Atlanta, centrally > located within NC,) we get tons of touring acts. I just checked my > generic booking email address (which is for unsolicited booking > requests) and 12 bands contacted me over the last three days. That's > an average of four bands a day, and we normally only book three a > night (ie: supply exceeds opportunities) - and again, this is the > unsolicited emails, not the booking agents and established local acts > I'm also talking to. Not every act is going to get a show because of > basic economics. And believe me, there are plenty of established acts > we miss out on because the date is already booked with another act. > For example, I have some dates in March (pre/post-SXSW) that I have 8 > different touring packages all wanting the same date. Hopefully some > of those end up in the triangle, but some of those will likely end up > in other cities.
> >>>The show was packed. Also those places don't charge over $7 to see a show.
> I'm getting a little ahead of myself. I guess I'm saying I want to > support local music,
> FYI, ticket prices are a reflection of the cost of the show. I set my > ticket prices based on the guarantee of the acts. And bands set their > guarantees based on their cost. So, when you go see a show at the > Cradle, part of your ticket price is to cover those buses outside, > those roadies running around with flashlights, etc.
> As far as local shows, I'm always willing to accept a free show - and > cover the cost of the show out of the bar, which I assume will do more > because 'free' normally equals more people. However, even local > bands have costs (practice space, equipment, fliers, recording costs, > etc.) so I also understand when bands want to charge (however, I will > say that I think bands should play for free until they have a decent > following - as I always say, cover charges are the biggest deterrent > for bands to get new fans.) Even still, it's rare for a locals to > charge more than $6.
> >but I feel I'm paying a premium to do so and I can't afford that premium. Nuf said.
> Right, which brings us back to the original message. What you view as > a 'premium', clubs view as cost of doing business as there is pretty > much a hidden cost to every element of a club. For you to enjoy that > beer, clubs have to pay for an ABC license (plus a $4 tax on every > liquor bottle), for you to not sit in silence between bands, clubs > have to pay BMI/APSCAP licenses, for you to not freeze/burn up, clubs > have to pay expensive utility bills (which also helps keep that beer > cold), and for you to hear the band clearly, clubs have to pay a > soundguy. And, most of all, for clubs to get the best talent > possible, clubs have to pay the artists.
> Bottomline: If rock clubs were making a so-called premium, I don't > think so many would be closing, would they?
Wow....did I get burned or what? I guess what I should have said was that everything is the way it should be.
I have read this entire thread and something strikes me as very oddly left out. Where is the blame laid on the local population? Ultimately, a local population has to have the intelligence to understand and appreciate music as art / entertainment before they can be expected to fill the music halls in our beloved Triangle. Fact is, many, many, many of our residents have NO IDEA what a good band is and that is the main reason local clubs can't fill the room based on what the better bands of our area are performing.
Until the stupidity is magically lifted or bred out of the idiots among us, get used to having to search for decent music and a decent music hall to listen to it in.
