Hi all.

Preface:  This is not 'sour grapes'.  My intention is to understand
the dynamic so that myself and others don't have to be frustrated
unnecessarily when trying to book a new band.

I recently received an email from Local 506 about the goin's on at
that venue.  Lots of great music acts and many of them local.  Kudos
to Local 506 for hosting local talent in more than a token way.

However, ( this is meant to be a serious question ) when all requests
to book a band are ignored by any club that books local acts
(including 506), how does a band manager avoid feeling like they are
fighting favoritism?

What do I mean 'favoritism'?  It seems the same local bands are
playing all of the local clubs yet when I try to book one of the local
bands that I manage, most of the time I don't even get a response.  I
have visited the clubs, introduced myself, politely inquired via
email, telephone and in-person yet all of these local clubs are
silent.

So what am I raving about?

If a band manager has a great local band but local clubs won't speak
with them about booking the local band, what advice can you offer to
ensure communication with the club manager short of firing the band
manager or stalking the club manager?

On Feb 5, 12:11 pm, chapelhillguitar...@hotmail.com wrote:

Great post.

If you have tried, exhaustively, to get the attention of a club
manager and they still don't respond to you, try again.

I know this sounds stupid but club goobs WANT you to work too hard.
Club goobs don't want to follow-up YOUR call but want you to spend
your time tracking them down.  Club goobs are not interested in the
quality of the music, per se, but rather are interested in making
money for the club.  Try a different tactic.  Make them believe that
you can make them money.  Appeal to their greed and the world will be
your oyster.

It's America and in America, we care more about money than about
people or art.  It's true and the evidence is all around us.

On Feb 5, 12:46 pm, trunk <trunkreco...@yahoo.com> wrote:

You sound like you feel my pain. :)

While I will agree with this point I feel resigned to lower myself to
book bands based on economics rather than good music or good art.
Seems the only thing we Americans want is more money... at the expense
of all of the truly great things in life.

I guess I will keep thinking about the greed angle.  Have you
experience in this regard?  What worked for you?

I don't book a club, but I play a variety of other (to use the honest
word) gatekeeper roles--I make most of the recommendations as to what
local CDs get playlisted at WXDU, for example. I book the bands who play
live on my radio show. I decide what shows I list on trianglerock.com.

And to be perfectly honest, if a local band has a "manager," that's an
instant red flag for me. I get a fair number of emails about shows &
bands & whatnot, and as I'm skimming them for the tiny kernels of useful
information (who/where/when), if I see "Manager" in connection with the
sender's name, I'm inclined to stop reading.

This is especially true when the manager uses the collective "we" when
referring to the band, as if he/she were a full-fledged bandmember, if
in fact he or she does not get up onstage & play an instrument with the
band.

Does this make me a bad person? Yes, sure, almost certainly. Thankfully
I'm at least aware of this, so if the band sends a CD or has music on
their MySpace, I'll probably listen to it anyway. But it'll be starting
at a deficit with me.

The only rationale I can present by way of explanation is this one: I've
listened to a couple of thousand CDs by an endless stream of local bands
over the past 16 years, and with the exception of a brief period when
Shawn Rogers was managing the Archers, I've almost never heard anything
from a local band with "management" that was worth a shit.

(Now, obviously, once a band hits a certain level--like, say, Squirrel
Nut Zippers, or Tift Merritt, or Ryan Adams--then management becomes a
necessity. But that bar is pretty high, and if you're struggling to get
booked into Local 506, I'm guessing you haven't hit it yet.)

I'll let Glenn speak for Local 506, as I'm sure he's hard at work
composing a reply right-this-second.

To answer the more general question that you're asking (why do some
bands get gigs more readily than others?), I can think of a couple of
possible answers:

1) the club owner has booked that band before, and they drew well, so
he's gonna book them again
2) the club owner listened to that other band's CD, and your CD, and the
other band's CD was better than your CD

What Glenn might say (I guess we'll find out in about 15 minutes) is
that even though Local 506 seems like a small club, it's still not a
starter-level club--it has a capacity of a couple hundred people. There
are quite a few bars around here who do live music, and have a capacity
of <100. Are you having the same amount of trouble getting booked at
(for example) Jack Sprat, or Nightlight, or the Cave, or Dain's Place in
Durham?

What Glenn will probably also say, because he's said it before, is that
at any given time, there are a couple of hundred local bands trying to
get booked into the dozen or so local clubs that book local bands.

I suppose if this were some kind of Rainbow Soccer version of a local
music scene, then everybody would get to play at every club exactly 1.6
times per year (but some peeps would still get stuck with Monday night).

Let me close with an age-old suggestion: make friends with one or more
of those bands who get shows at all the clubs you want to get shows at.
It's not uncommon for a local band who are known to draw well to get
some input into who opens for them.

Good luck,

Ross

-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
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Heh... actually I do.

There was this club, club 'a' to protect the guilty, where we kept
getting the cold shoulder from the booking guy.  Nothing we tried (all
five of us tried different things) worked.  Then one day we were
thinking about the issue and decided to try a bit of social
engineering on the club goob.

Here is what we did.  We took out a half page ad in the Independent
that had a great picture of the band and lots of cool looking flashy
graphics and fonts.  All of it meaningless.  We then snagged all the
copies we could find and cut out the ad.  We then mailed (snail mail)
45 copies of this advert from 45 different people (all legit people)
and then followed up with a telephone call a week later.

This club goob was salivating to get us in the door.  He thought that
he was gonna make loads of money so he was suddenly our best friend.
He even gave the band a $200 bar tab AND $500 for performing.

This one little lesson should give you all you need to break into the
local scene.

Just remember:
Flash over substance - if you are an amazing band with exceptional
musicians, don't mention this fact. Instead, play down the level of
musicianship and instead find lots of adjectives which mean nothing
but average people will think you are cool.

Nothing means something - The less you say, the more people wanna
know.

Take every opportunity to impress a club goob with your business
acumen.  Even if you suck at it, make the club goob THINK that you
will make them money.

It's a cruel world out there so cruel actions are needed to survive.
It's either that or just hold your own parties and forget the clique-
ish club scene.

Thanks Ross, couldn't have said that better myself, which is good cos
I'm really busy today and wouldn't have time to reply in depth (and
really didn't get a chance to read every line of every posts.)

However, I will say this.  As a club booker, I pay attention to what
the other clubs in town are doing and who's putting up fliers, et al,
so if the first-time I'm hearing of your band is when you contact me
to play 506, then it's my opinion that you're not working hard enough
(at either getting shows, or promoting the shows you got.) There are
plenty of other rooms for a band to play their first few shows, before
taking the jump up to 506.

As far as getting those others shows, which sounds like you're also
having difficulty with - my recommendation is to make friends with the
bands you want to play with.  With most of our local shows, I book the
headliner and the headliner picks the bands they want to play with.
In honesty, that's how I find out about many new local acts (much more
so than bands sending me their myspace link.)

What's funny, one year ago, this original email could have been
written by Red Collar, a band that didn't even play Local 506 until
last July (when Sleepsound ask them to open their CD release show) but
would probably be looked at as a bands who's getting such
'favoritism.'

With all that said, I will share as much info as people are willing to
listen to (one of the reason's I take the time to post on amch.)
Unfortunately, too few bands in my opinion ask such questions...so i'm
glad you got the ball rolling.

glenn / local 506

How do you feel about the term, "club goob"?  Do you have business cards
with that on it?  ;)

chris

-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
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Grady, you are a jerk and wrong. For example and to wit: If R.E.M.  hadn't
had Jefferson Holt "manager" the revolution would not have been televised.
Take your "red flag" and go run with the bulls. Just try to avoid the
bullshit. Which, I might say, is unlikely.
Still love you though. Even though you are one jaundiced fuck.

MCKINNEY /

-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
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 One thing a lot of bands tend to forget is that club owners have this nasty little addiction called 'overheads'. No matter how great your band may be, if they can't fill the joint, for whatever reason, the club owner may well lose money, maybe lots of it.

Think the bank, landlord, phone co., beer vendors, Duke Power, and a bajillion other expenses will cut the owner any slack because the attendance has been down and he can't afford to pay right now? If so, please contact me, my family has a bridge in Brooklyn we'd like to sell, cheap too!

For a new, unproven draw of a band to expect they can waltz right into a club like 506 is not only excessively egotistical, its fucking insane!

I've been in bands since 1965 and can certainly empathize with how hard it can be to get gigs...hell, we're strugglin' in Killer Filler...but the reality is that there are way, way more good bands in Chapel Hill than there are clubs to keep them all booked and that, coupled with the economic realities faced by club owners make gigs a bit on the scarce side. Particularly if you are not a PROVEN draw.

But think of how much worse it would be if the clubs that are there went out of business because they booked bands based solely upon skill or friendship as opposed to draw.

pete gamble

On Feb 5, 1:24 pm, gr...@ibiblio.org (grady) wrote:

Wow.  You actually admit to being biased against local music acts with
managers.

It isn't fair that you feel this way and is a disservice to bands who
have their collective shit together.  I find it appalling that you, a
self-admitted 'gatekeep' for various local music opportunities, choose
to play god with local music simply because you are in the
'gatekeeper' role.  Whatever happened to let the people decide?

Your description of your role in the local music scene is very similar
to the same cliquishness seen within the larger mainstream music
industry.

No wonder people find it very difficult to get in the door when there
are people like you who block the door.

Hmm.  Another slam of local talent.  I guess we can interpret this as
'If you are local and have a manager, you must suck.'.

I am not 'struggling' to get booked.  I am fighting a quixotic fight
against the 'gatekeepers' like yourself who filter local music before
it ever has a chance to be heard in local venues.

Now I am not saying that I know better than you.  I am saying that you
can't possibly know better than most since tastes vary and one
person's Dr. Dre is another person's Weird Al.

What's wrong with letting new bands in on an off night?

On Feb 5, 2:35 pm, loxp...@aol.com wrote:

I understand overhead.  I understand putting butts in the seats and
selling beer.

What I don't understand is how these things can be accomplished in an
environment that is hostile to 'bands I've never heard of'.  The old
phrase 'paying your dues' rings hollow to bands who have 'paid their
dues' for years only to see newer, younger bands who haven't paid any
dues suddenly headlining at 506 or the Cradle.  It reeks of favoritism
when talented bands that the club owner may not personally like don't
get booked for gigs while other, less talented bands play frequently.

Life isn't fair.  I am not asking for a free ride or a fair life.

Simple courtesy of a response from the club manager or booking person
would be great.  Just because bands outnumber clubs doesn't mean that
clubs don't have an obligation to be just as professional in return to
someone who is professional during a request for booking.

The days of good manners seem to be over. ;)

On Feb 5, 2008 1:55 PM,  <local...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yup, that was the only way my crappy band ever played at 506 (way back
before the Age of Glenn).
-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
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This sounds like the best advice one can use to 'break in' to this
'scene'.  We have tried these avenues too but...
maybe it's our intrapersonal skills?  Maybe it's the way I smell or
something?

Our band got a foot in the door playing opening slots, which we did religiously and at every opportunity. We were so happy to be a band(still are), that entitlement never really occurred to us. We promoted the shit out of our Monday night shows, had the understanding that not all emails get replies, and were extremely grateful when we started getting them. We just kept doing our own thing, and I think that's when people took notice. We have a DIY ethic that was fostered during our teens. No one's going to do it for you so do it yourself. Railing against "club goobs" in a public forum is probably not going to make it easier. It's telling when a band or manager doesn't get a reply to an email, and is out of ideas.

_________________________________________________________________
Helping your favorite cause is as easy as instant messaging. You IM, we give.
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-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
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D'oh! I forgot that particularly fertile period of the Ashley Stove's
career during which they were under the managerial tutelage of Mr. Kevin
Grealey. Of course, that's probably because I never actually had to deal
with Grealey, because Grealey's sole function seemed to be to provide
someone for Matt Brown to drink & smoke pot with.

If this town had more managers like Kevin Grealey, some folks, at least,
would be a lot happier.

-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
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See, you asked for someone to give you the honest answer, and then when
somebody *gave* you the honest answer, you got all appalled & stuff.
That, plus your bizarre appeal to "fairness," leads me to suspect that
perhaps you're in the wrong line of work. Have you considered becoming a
right-wing talk radio host?

-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene

First, you heap abuse upon club owners.

On 2008-02-05, chapelhillguitar...@hotmail.com <chapelhillguitar...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Then you take Ross to task for an admitted bias that he says he works to
overcome.  Your opinion of the magnitude of Ross's power is also probably a
little high.

Then you express disdian for bands without managers, because that's what
the above sentence implies.

Do you plan to try and get along with anyone around here?  Because that
would seem to be a big part of getting your band booked in local clubs.

Consider getting a second e-mail address.

--
   //))           Jason M. SULLIVAN   jsulli...@nc.rr.com
  |c-oo                  http://www.jason0x21.org
 //\_-     "That's not music, that's just sound!" - J. David Fries

Very nice. It reminds me of a Saturday afternoon when Brown and I were going
to lunch. After "enhancing" our appetites we took to the road with Brown at
the helm in the Stove van (loved that van). Came to an intersection, and
after about two and a half songs, Brown looks at me and says, "You know, I
don't think this Stop sign is ever going to turn green." Then we went to
India Mahal. A good day, all in all.

MCKINNEY /

-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene

When Red Collar first started out, we emailed the 506 to play and we
didn't always get a response but one of them said, "Play the Nightlife
a few times, play the Cave, play Blend, build up a crowd and then book
at the 506" which I thought was load of shit because I saw a lot of
other fledgling local people play the 506. So I, like you, assumed
there must be some cabal that determines who plays there or some
secret password I have to know.

But a couple of things really helped me get a better perspective on
'where I'm playing'-the venues as well as the area.  I found out that
this area is a lot different than other cities we've played.  People
don't go to music venues around here to drink and maybe catch a band
regardless who's playing (RIP Joe and Jo's).  Maybe this still happens
at the Cave, I don't know.  Around here, they go to the venues to see
a specific band.  This is different than some cities we've played
where there is a cover and people pay it, but they really don't care
what band is playing-they're there to drink.  And at those venues you
can say, "The venue brings the crowd.  We should get a show there".
But you can't say that about almost any venue around here.  This all
seems obvious to me now but when I first started playing in a band
down here, it wasn't.

I would assume that the 506 does business just like the 40 Watt Club
or The Earl which is why we don't bother even asking to book at either
of these places or any even remotely like them in the region because
they will ignore our emails and truthfully they should ignore them.
I'd imagine places like that get dozens of requests per day, probably
getting at least triple the requests the Cradle.

We now actively look for the places in other towns that only hold 25
or 50 people- the Dain's or Jack Sprat equivalent.  If we can't pack
them, I don't assume that it's the venue's fault people aren't there
to watch us and then look for a bigger place the next time we come
around town.  Even if we could get a show at a bigger venue, it's not
a good idea because we've played shows at venues that hold about what
the 506 does and brought in maybe 30 people which is a great crowd but
30 in a place like the 506, it's not as fun as a place that holds only
25.

Sometimes that headliner suggestion works but I don't know if it
worked for us.  We've opened for some really great local and national
bands that brought a great crowd and sure, we played some fantastic
venues but then we went back to playing to five people again.

It's not until recently that I would've felt comfortable headlining
the 506 and I think we're about on our 200th show or so.  Glenn was
absolutely right when he didn't have us play and I am sincerely
grateful for it.  It was better for the 506 and it was better for me
because I stopped caring so much about where we played.  Glenn, as a
personal apology, every time in the past that I 'oops missed' the
urinal or toilet after dropping off our demo, I'm really really really
really sorry.  Mike put me up to it.

I don't really think that whole business that trunk was talking about
with the half page ad is necessary or good for anyone.  Your money and
time is spent better elsewhere.  My advice is to play Jack Sprat and
Dain's at least once every two months.  Find the other Jack Sprats in
the dozen towns within 4 hours of here.  Do that for six months then
email Glenn.

Jay

You so totally earned your 15% that day, my friend.

-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
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I've got to admit I laughed out loud at Ross's proposal for a career for
chapelhillguitarist.

I've never been the guy to try and get bookings for the bands I was in back
in the day, and I think we only played the 506 once as part of a
double-bill.

Oddly, our first ever gig as "Trophy Wife" was at the Cat's Cradle! It was a
Thanksgiving benefit for the homeless hosted by Gravity's Pull I believe. We
were friends with Sue and Nick in GP, so they asked us. This is after we had
"proven ourselves" I guess as the musicians for "Jesus Christ Superstar" at
Forest Theater for the Somnambulist Project's production that summer. Sue
played Judas, and Nick ran sound.

They liked the way we sounded and as we became friends, they asked us to
open for them and (ugh!) Tangeena Barren.

regardless of the size of the crowd.

Now that I'm working with a sketch comedy group in Raleigh, I've heard that
the same kind of thing happens in comedy clubs. People call the owners or
email them, and say, "my friends think I'm funny. Can I do a set on your
stage?"

It seems that it takes some personal social interaction and for people to
know you and the quality of what you do for them to book you. Oh, and of
course, that's secondary to bringing in the bottom line.

If I ever got the hankering to play out live again with the guys, I'd be
more than happy to play at smaller venues again.

But then again, I'm getting old and I need my sleepy time.

- Kevin Darbro

On 2/5/08 4:14 PM, "grady" <gr...@ibiblio.org> wrote:

-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
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Wow, dude. Just wow. I wouldn't want to book "your" band now. I guess
it's a good thing you've failed to mention exactly who you're
representing, despite the fact (and I can only speak for myself) it
probably would have garnered a couple more visits to the Myspace page.

Ross is right, though. There is a certain level of superficial
filtering that needs to be done when you're faced with tons of
requests, whether it be for booking, or for reviews/features/
interviews/listings/write-ups/whatever. I don't even get all that many
CDs crossing my path (sadly), and I still can't get to all of them.

If I'm working within the understanding that it is impossible for me
to get to everything, of course I'll go with the CD I heard was super
great, or the band I saw that one time and loved, or even the one with
the best packaging. And yes, there are some red flags. For me, a promo
CD-R w/ chicken-scratch sharpie all over it, but with a giant glossy
portrait and 8-pages of glowing praise from said band's moms is a huge
red flag because clearly that band cares more about its moms and its
"image" than packaging its music, which should speak for itself.

Similarly, publicists that are rude or do something like spell my name
wrong or who fail to provide basic information like release dates or
what the name of the band/album is usually get blown off.

Sometimes there just isn't space on the page (in the club) for
everything.

Sometimes, too I'll listen to a record and decide that this music is
simply so awful that I wouldn't want to subject my readers to the mere
mention of it. Yeah, that's editorial discretion. Yeah, it's
subjective. No, it's not a perfect system. Sorry.

I know the press side and the radio side and booking side of things
are all a little different, but I speak for myself, and I believe also
for Ross and Glenn in saying we're all generally in favor of music. If
we weren't, we wouldn't spend so much damn time on it. You can't blame
anybody for trying to take care of themselves, too.

If there were enough hours in the day, I would personally respond to
every e-mail or phone call from every publicist who sends me one to
say that some band is playing in Greensboro (out of my circulation)
and their CD came out three months ago (no longer newsworthy). But the
fact of the matter is, I don't have the time for that. And I've got it
pretty easy as a mere college newspaper editor.

That's why 90% of the job of a publicist/promoter/manager is to build
good relationships with people, so they don't waste anybody's time and
then when your band does do something newsworthy, I won't look over
your e-mail because I remember that time you were a dick because I
didn't write a 1000 word feature on your band's second practice.

-bryan from diversions/shuffle

You know, I could probably write an entire book replying to all the
stuff that has mentioned in this thread but, alas, time gets in the
way.  With that said, I did want to check the level of interest in
doing a local music networking/discussion night on such topics
(booking, press, radio, etc.) - I personally think there is a lot of
information that could be shared and in a better format that amch.
This is an idea I've been bouncing around for a while.  Thoughts?

The one thing I definitely want to address is the so-called
'favoritism' that I'm possibly being accused  of.  I make no secret
that my favorite local band is Transportation - their last show at
Local 506 was almost one year ago: February 23, 2007.  Des-Ark would
be a top five favorite (possibly even number two) - last 506 show
almost three years ago: February 26, 2005!  Work Clothes, Top 10 -
Last Show: 9/16/06.  I have a much better chance of seeing these bands
somewhere else than at Local 506 (unfortunately!)

Now, I'm sure you're thinking, "yeah, but what about your favorite
individuals, regardless of interest in their bands." Well, I think all
you need to do is ask any of my employees (who also double as
friends) about the process.  Yeah, I might throw a bone here and there
but I am normally trying to make the best bills possible (sonically,
if not alliteration'ery.)

I will say the one thing that works in any bands favor for me is their
ability to communicate efficiently.  For many shows, I make a list of
potential openers - and usually contact them in the order I think they
will respond.  I tend to shy away from (and eventually avoid) bands
that have been proven slow corresponders or one that takes days to
check all the band member schedules before giving me an answer.

Again, I'm sure you're thinking "isn't that the pot calling the kettle
black."  I do respond to every email that comes to our booking
address, although not quite as quickly as many would like.  One of the
reasons your band in particular may not have gotten a response is
because I hesitated on replying to many of the local band requests
over the last couple months until I had a better idea of how our 'free
for all' shows were working out. Otherwise, your band would have
gotten the same email Red Collar and many others have gotten (a list
of other venues that might work better.)

glenn/506

My two cents:
For a new band, the first thing to do is to play anywhere and then
promote the hell out of that event.  Tuesday night at a gas station?
Bring your friends!  Sunday afternoon show with no cover in a parking
lot?  Put fliers on every wall in Chapel Hill/Whereeverville!  If you
can draw a crowd to podunk events, then you can be sure a club will be
interested.  This isn't (necessarily) because club owners are evil.
It is because they have to make a living to, and unlike most of us
music isn't just their day job.  If you want to make your band a
commercial entity, then you need to show that your band has commercial
potential for your partners (the venues) too.

Or you just play for fun, which is just as good and maybe better.
Some of the best music I've seen this year has come from community-
supported venues like BCHQ showing bands who are playing in large part
because of the love of the music (which is not to say those bands
aren't also commercially viable).

-Garfield

On Feb 5, 4:42 pm, kevin.grea...@mckinney.com (Kevin Grealey) wrote:

Hey, can you work your band manager magic and get Matt to email me
back?  I must have six old email addresses for that guy.