cradle & arts center move
Jeffrey Herrick
back. The article below indicates that tonite 4-7PM
you can look at the plans for the big development for
the property that contains Cradle, Vis-Art, Arts
Center, Performance etc.. in Carrboro. Looks like it
will take at least a year for the town to review the
plan..
********
http://www.chapelhillnews.com/news/story/2143401p-8525123c.html
Published: Feb 19, 2005
Major Carrboro project gets public airing
By DAVE HART, STAFF WRITER
CARRBORO — Once it’s under way, the plan the folks at
Main Street Properties have in mind for the
redevelopment of 300 E. Main Street will be impossible
to miss.
It will involve removing all the existing buildings on
the south side of East Main between Roberson Street
and Bleeker Street Studios. That’s a span that
includes, among other things, Cat’s Cradle,
ArtsCenter, Amante Pizza, VisArt Videos, Bandidos,
Performance Bicycles and the Honda repair shop. The
developers said the businesses themselves, except the
auto shop, will be retained on the site in new digs.
Those structures will be replaced by new buildings,
some of them five stories tall; a parking deck and a
ramp to underground parking levels; a pedestrian
plaza; an outdoor amphitheater; and many new shops,
restaurants, offices and apartments.
The project will be, to put it mildly, significant. So
the developers don’t want it to take anybody by
surprise.
They held a meeting last September to introduce their
proposal to the public, to gather input and answer
questions.
On Wednesday, they will do it again. Main Street
Properties will hold an open house from 4 p.m. to 7
p.m. at The ArtsCenter. The developers will show the
latest site plan, which has undergone some changes
since the September meeting, along with models and
elevation drawings.
If you have two cents to throw in, they said, now’s
the time.
“This is the last best chance to look at our ideas and
let us know what you think,” said Laura Van Sant of
Main Street Properties. “We want everybody with an
interest in downtown Carrboro, anybody who thinks they
might be interested in living or opening a business
there, anybody interested in the design, to come and
take a look.”
Van Sant said the company plans to submit its
application for a Conditional Use Permit to the town
this spring. With a project this large and complex,
she said, the review process will take some time.
“One year would be very optimistic,” she said. “Two
years would be a little pessimistic. So somewhere
between the two, I would think, would be about right.
The town has a few things on its plate already — the
new high school, for example. So we’ll just get in
line.”
The plan calls for several buildings to go along the
street front with retail on the ground floor and
offices and other uses on upper floors. A pedestrian
plaza behind those buildings would run the length of
the site on a long diagonal, deliberately oriented
toward the Weaver Street lawn to encourage pedestrian
traffic between the two areas.
The parking deck would stand at the back of the site,
where the long building that houses the ArtsCenter and
the Cradle now stands.
Both those venues would shift over to the eastern edge
of the property, the Cradle in front and The
ArtsCenter in the rear, with an outdoor amphitheater
between them.
“The big three gathering places downtown are the
Cradle, The ArtsCenter and Weaver Street Market,” Van
Sant said. “We have two of the three on this site, and
we’re designing this to interact with the third.
“It’s a private development in the sense that it’s
being done by a private company, not by the town. But
it is public in the sense that it’s the most
significant development in downtown Carrboro in
anyone’s memory, and so it will matter to anybody who
goes there. In that sense, it’s a community project.
That’s why we want to talk to the community about it.”
Open house
Main Street Properties will hold an open house from 4
p.m. to 7 p.m. at The ArtsCenter to share its proposed
design for 300 E. Main Street.
Contact Dave Hart at 932-8744 or dh...@nando.com.
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grady
the lady who moved into Downtown Durham expecting it to be silent as a
fucking tomb, all about how upset she is that there's a club in Downtown
Durham that makes noise after dark.
And while I sure as shit wouldn't want to live anywhere near a club,
especially one with booming bass, that's one reason why I bought several
acres of land in the country & built a house smack in the middle of it.
Rather than, you know, buying a building right in the middle of a
downtown commercial district & then moving into it.
I said this when Christa posted the previous info, and I'll say it
again: I predict hasslements from people moving into the
apartment/condos in this development if there is *any* noise after 10:00
p.m. from either the Cradle, the ArtsCenter, or the new outdoor
amphitheater between them.
I love the idea of mixed-use developments and people living above
commercial space, but it may be harder than people imagine to quickly
make the transition from a suburban/small-town headspace to a more
urban/mixed-use headspace. Certainly the person who wrote the piece in
the Indy seemed to have *no* room in her headspace for the notion that a
downtown area might be noisy after dark.
Ross
Chris Calloway
> I hope they read the "First Person" thing in
> last week's Indy by
> the lady who moved into Downtown Durham expecting it
> to be silent as a
> fucking tomb, all about how upset she is that
> there's a club in Downtown
> Durham that makes noise after dark.
The Indy seems to egg these idiots on. Afterall, it's
profitable for them. One such previous complainer was
an Indy columnist. She was eventually bought off by a
downtown club to quit filing complaints. Turned out
she didn't want quiet. She just wanted money.
Booshie numbnuts.
Dog, what would they do if there were any industry
left downtown? There used to be factories cranking 24
hours a day down there.
Can we get that Triangle rail thingy to run until
after the bars close so we can shake their floors all
night?
3
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grady
than the quiet whirr of tiny paper cylinders stacking themselves into
neat little pyramids & then dancing together into the packs . . .
Chris Calloway wrote:
> Dog, what would they do if there were any industry
> left downtown? There used to be factories cranking 24
> hours a day down there.
Chris Calloway
> Yes, but they were making nice soft squishy
> cigarettes -- nothing more
> than the quiet whirr of tiny paper cylinders
> stacking themselves into
> neat little pyramids & then dancing together into
> the packs . . .
it's too bad we can't take tours of whittaker park
anymore in w-s. ciggy factories make a pretty constant
hum on the outside cuz inside those "quiet whirr"
machines are loud as shit. plus there's trucks and
trains and beeping forklifts backing up. plus
warehouse doors slamming. plus vortex fans for
pneumatic conveyance. they might be "light" industry.
but they make a racket.
i think they used to make those machines jam on
command because the machine which stuffed the leaf
inside the paper tube would shoot a long stream of
continuous ciggy out on every tour i ever went on
right as we'd walk by it. and, of course, what with
school trips and church trips and boy scout trips, we
got to tour it pretty often.
downtown is much quieter than it used to be.
3
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James Hepler
bunch of pictures which I will get working on right
away. I don't know how well they turned out though.
But once you get a chance to see the layout, take note
that the cats cradle will be about as removed from the
residential section as possible, and they plan to take
as many steps as possible to make sure that the
performing arts venues keep the sound in.
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Sorren Thule
awesome. If I have a vote I would like to see the cradle get some air
conditioning too. :)
James Hepler
right and bottom right of the layout. They're colored
differently on the carrboro map.
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James Hepler
there will be apartments above the cradle, as it just
doesn't seem to be the plan. I could be wrong. The
Cradle will be the building at the top left of the
compound, and the arts center will be at the bottom
left. Hopefully everything will make sense with
these:
http://home.mindspring.com/~sadresden/carrboro/
Hep
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grady
legend says building F has "cultural" but building E is office/retail.
Oh well, no matter. Rock is retail.
In any case residential goes in I (a ways away) and H (a good bit
closer, but buffered by the giant 7-level parking structure J). Still
quite a bit closer to the Cradle than any existing residential, but not
*that* much closer than those first houses/condos in Robeson Place or
whatever that thing is below the old farmer's market.
http://home.mindspring.com/~sadresden/carrboro/street%20plan.jpg
I like this illustration:
http://home.mindspring.com/~sadresden/carrboro/Alley%20Rendition.jpg
It's very Old Mexico. Carrboro: the San Antonio of North Carolina.
Richard: I hear what you're saying, but we've already *got* multiple
fakey-fakey "downtown" prefab developments, everything from Southern
Village & Meadowmont to freaking Streets of Southpoint. This
development, at least, will be increasing the density of an
already-existing downtown area and putting more
residential/office/retail space into an area that's already served by an
"urban" infrastructure of streets, retail & public transit.
If there's decent small/unglamorous office space available, we wouldn't
mind renting something if it were cheap enough. Internet connectivity is
too shitty to really be able to "work from home" out in the woods where
we live, plus it's nice to get out of the house & go to an "office," but
still highly preferable in many cases to be physically far away from
one's actual co-workers . . .
Plus if we had an office near the Cradle/etc, we could occasionally
crash there instead of driving all the way back home.
Ross
ron thigpen
> BTW, when I said top left and bottom left, I meant top
> right and bottom right of the layout. They're colored
> differently on the carrboro map.
trying to make sure i'm reading this correctly.
so, in this pic:
<http://home.mindspring.com/~sadresden/carrboro/>
cradle is in D, art's center is in F?
with nearest residential in H?
big ole parking deck is J?
assuming H isn't too sensitive to D, F has a nice performance space
layout, that D and F clients may leave vehicles in J, it might just work
out. even if the shiny newness will be creepy for a while.
--rt
James Hepler
> cradle is in D, art's center is in F?
Cradle in E, arts center in F
> with nearest residential in H?
Yep
> big ole parking deck is J?
Yep
All according to Dude Man.
> assuming H isn't too sensitive to D, F has a nice
> performance space
> layout, that D and F clients may leave vehicles in
> J, it might just work
> out. even if the shiny newness will be creepy for a
> while.
Could be worse, it could be faux oldness like
Southpoint(e). But they seem to covering bases, like
making sure the bike path is incorporated and
extending Robeson.
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James Hepler
between E and F, although the pic
(http://home.mindspring.com/~sadresden/carrboro/street%20plan.jpg)
probably makes that clear. Dude Man said that there
would be little if any late night activity in that spot.
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grady
time? Or would there be cops stationed there to prevent that?
James Hepler
--- grady <gr...@ibiblio.org> wrote:
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Tim Harper
going to park/load-in? I have worked these kind of 'facilities' in other
towns and those two little details always seem to be forgotten by the dreamy
architect-types. A year or two of rolling road cases across the cute little
pavers that will inevitably be used in the hardscape should demonstrate the
problem fairly clearly, but then it will be too late. Too many times I have
been directed to park my 10-11' clearance truck in a 6-7' clearance parking
deck after loading gear in off the street (yes, it was a traffic nightmare).
BTW- the Main street elevation looks like an upscale strip mall in Cary.
Thanks,
Tim
"James Hepler" <james...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2005022323072...@web40624.mail.yahoo.com...
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <U_lTd.16007$Yf5.1...@twister.southeast.rr.com> :
>Thanks for the pics. So where are the tour buses and the equipment trucks
>going to park/load-in? I have worked these kind of 'facilities' in other
>towns and those two little details always seem to be forgotten by the dreamy
>architect-types.
They are working closely with both the Artscenter and Frank so I'm
sure this issue will be well considered. If you're still worried
about it then shoot them an email, this is the kind of thing they WANT
to hear from people now.
da...@hollinghurst.net
denying, deleteing, and denouncing any character a nice, small town once
had. "If only we turn this country into one gigantic mall..." Clean,
cobblestone pathways, organized parking, food courts, and rent-a-cops
galore. Don't forget the opportunity to spend craploads of money on every
corner.
I hope everyone has been sending editorials to the local presses. You've
been making a great deal of sense, which is just what the public needs right
now. I can't confirm anyone has, coming from NYC.
Good luck. I hope to see one last show at the Cradle before the sledges
fall. Seems like yesterday when I was recording a record at Kraptone while
they were in the process of moving the last one. Ahh, memories...
dAve
------------------------------
Message: 41
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:13:05 GMT
From: Kevin Van Sant <kvan...@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: cradle & arts center move
To: ch-s...@lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <34vr11l25ufek2jml...@4ax.com>
------------------------------
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James Hepler
--- da...@hollinghurst.net wrote:
> This sounds like a fucking nightmare. Once again,
> America prevails in
> denying, deleteing, and denouncing any character a
> nice, small town once
> had. "If only we turn this country into one
> gigantic mall..." Clean,
> cobblestone pathways, organized parking, food
> courts, and rent-a-cops
> galore. Don't forget the opportunity to spend
> craploads of money on every
> corner.
Have you seen the property in question? If that's
small town character, give me Epcot Center.
> I hope everyone has been sending editorials to the
> local presses. You've
> been making a great deal of sense, which is just
> what the public needs right
> now. I can't confirm anyone has, coming from NYC.
>
> Good luck. I hope to see one last show at the
> Cradle before the sledges
> fall. Seems like yesterday when I was recording a
> record at Kraptone while
> they were in the process of moving the last one.
> Ahh, memories...
I do miss those days.
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jenn....@gmail.com
>small town character, give me Epcot Center.
No kidding, there's not much character in that strip mall.
I'm curious about everyone else's design ideas, I mean, if you don't
agree with what they're going for aesthetically. More modern? More
shire-like? Real brick instead of the "fakey fakey" mentioned? I think
it might be impossible to have it *not* look new, because it will be,
in fact, new.
-Jenn
Chris Rossi
rossi
--
http://spacelabstudio.com
my email address is 'chris' at above domain
John Iwaniszek
one word: Domes
jenn....@gmail.com
big problem with what they're doing, looks-wise (except for the big
parking garage right at the front of the property, ugh).
Personally I'd prefer something more urban looking
(glass/concrete/slate) over the faux-olde towney feel (already captured
at Meadowmont), but more urban wouldn't fit into the overall feel of
Carrboro would it? Also, how about some unique touch, something that
would distinguish it from your typical New Urban Development
(http://www.newurbannews.com/AboutNewUrbanism.html). I'm not sure yet
what that would be. Outdoor artwork created by local artisits
incorporated into the design? Some place to show movies in the summer
outside?
I like the creation of another outdoor space to draw people out from
Weaver Street and over across the way- then perhaps the retail shops
that open over on the Acme side of Main Street will get some business
as people explore the area more (since right now there isn't much of a
compelling reason for a family to go for a walk down Main St. toward
Chapel Hill). An example is the good amount of foot traffic between the
Weave and the Farmer's Market. If a community gathering place can be
created at 300 Main St. then we'd see the same thing in the other
direction.
I think we're lucky to have a space that to work with. How very cool to
have the ArtsCenter and the Cradle in the same place, without a
Blockbuster or Applebees right next to them....the businesses in that
area deserve an update.
-Jenn
grady
that the only people bitching about the thing are Richard Allen (lives
in NYC; projecting his youthful hatred of Suburban D.C. onto the
project), Tim Harper (mostly just concerned about where to park his
panel van, which should be easily handle-able; took a potshot at the
Main Street Elevation, which *does* look kind of polished & bland,
except for that interesting white building at the far right; however,
that elevation looks *so* generic that I suspect the reality would have
to be somewhat more variegated), and Dave Hollinghurst (apparently also
currently living in NYC, and in any case rendered permanently embittered
by those years spent in a van with Kenlan & Garrison so you gotta
discount half of what he says anyway).
Most of us who actually live here have by-and-large seemed pretty
optimistic in our posts.
I myself *would* like to get beyond the current namby-pamby
weak-postmodernism that southern commercial architecture seems to be
stuck in; it's neither vernacular enough to be useful in the South, nor
interesting enough to be, well, interesting. (I already mentioned that
white building at the western end of the project; I'd like to see more
details of that one)
I'd like to see structures that take advantage of the vast quantities of
solar energy available to us here, like the new Club Nova apartments
just a couple of miles further west do.
I'd like to see green roofs for stormwater control. I'd like to see
where the bus stop is, how sheltered it is, and whether it will be
possible for the bus to get completely out of the way of through traffic
on Main St to do all the loading & unloading of people that one hopes
would be required, considering we've got free busses in Chapel
Hill/Carrboro & thus residents of the project & surrounding areas would
have no real need to use their cars on a regular basis to get to/from it.
I'd like to see how the angled pedestrian plaza that aims at Weaver
Street is actually going to connect to Weaver Street right through the
middle of the most annoying (simultaneously pedestrian-, bike-, *and*
car-unfriendly) intersection in all of Carrboro.
By and large I *am* optimistic, but at this point my optimism is mostly
practical: I wholeheartedly support the idea of higher-density mixed-use
development in the middle of our existing communities, which is the best
place for it. Meadowmont and Southern Village are sorta nice ideas that
are executed in the wrong places; those people still have to get in
their cars to go to the drugstore, to the dry cleaners', to the library,
to a whole host of other places.
This development is a great idea that is being executed in exactly the
*right* place. I'm *not* convinced that the architecture is going to be
anything other than ho-hum, but I'm willing to put up with that. Maybe I
shouldn't be.
I think people are right to be wary of single-developer developments
that span whole city blocks and attempt to incorporate faux-public
spaces; certainly Southpoint of a good example of how evil such things
can be when done in a wholly cynical capitalist fashion.
But I spent several years living in Houston, where there is no zoning
whatsoever, and I can tell you right now that "the people", when left to
their own devices, rarely spontaneously generate genuine/authentic
"public" spaces, especially not in the middle of urban blocks,
regardless of whether there's a single developer or a dozen different
developers doing the design/construction.
I shouldn't have to remind y'all that the single most popular "public"
space in Carrboro is Weaver Street Market, which is "public" only in the
sense that the market is a co-op. There is nothing inherently bad about
a private developer setting aside "public" space. There *is* something
sad when fascist/pure-capitalist venues such as shopping malls become
the de facto public spaces of our communities, but I'm not sure that's
what's happening with this development; the "anchor stores" for this
particular mixed-use development are apparently the folks who're
currently there: the ArtsCenter, the Cradle, Performance (in a smaller
retail-only space, apparently), perhaps Vis-Art.
Will there at some point be a problem with free speech/association
issues on the pedestrian mall/outdoor amphitheater that will apparently
be on private property in the heart of this development? That is a
distinct possibility, and one we should be prepared to deal with, but
it's perhaps premature to get too worried about that just yet.
Ross
bendy
grady wrote:
> Meadowmont and Southern Village are sorta nice ideas that
> are executed in the wrong places; those people still have to get in
> their cars to go to the drugstore, to the dry cleaners', to the library,
> to a whole host of other places.
And part of the dense/mixed use argument that is often forgotten is the
cost of running utilities out to developments. People who live in dense
areas pay disproportionately for the infrastructure (sewage, electric)
which they depreciate. Or rather, the folks in the MacMansions get a
huge discount.
> This development is a great idea that is being executed in exactly the
> *right* place. I'm *not* convinced that the architecture is going to be
> anything other than ho-hum, but I'm willing to put up with that. Maybe I
> shouldn't be.
What attracted me to this area sure wasn't the architecture...I remember
my first walk through Carrboro on a sun-baked September afternoon eight
years ago. Walking around and seeing folks just *hanging* suddenly wiped
away the poor first impression of our initial drive down Franklin Street
a few days before. The famed Cats Cradle was in a strip mall? I'm gonna
have to drive to get to work? And park in a lot full of SUVs? I'm going
to double my rent to live in a thin-walled Sears cottage?
Shrimp and grits sealed the deal, but the whole overpriced-ramshackle
lifestyle took us a few days to swallow. Anyone who thinks downtown
Carrboro is a *small town* is fooooolin'. I've lived in small towns. It
ain't a small town unless there's buckshot marks on the speed limit signs.
Bendy
paok
i, for one, will be happy to be working in a building that is NOT a former Piggly Wiggly...
phaedra
-----Original Message-----
From: bendy <be...@duke.edu>
Sent: Feb 25, 2005 10:04 AM
To: RTP-area local music and culture <ch-s...@lists.ibiblio.org>
Subject: Re: cradle & arts center move
Chris Calloway
video store lofts for all my friends.
i, for one, look forward to what our new place making
overlords have to say.
"as we grow more isolated from each other, personal
gripes grow into blanket truths. we have lots of
opinions and we shout them angrily into the wind."
"well planned cities can compensate for declining
incomes by decreasing the cost of living."
"cities are gentrified by the following types of
people in sequence: first the risk-oblivious
(artists), then the risk-aware (developers), finally
the risk adverse (dentists from new jersey)."
"the only remaining radical act that will scandalize
critics accustomed to everything is to build a
classical building."
"as a cultural institution, disney is more influential
than harvard."
"craftsmen work in a pre-literate world."
"the architectural avant-garde extols cinematic
illusion but denigrate its masterpiece: williamsburg."
"the avant-garde mistakes individualism (which is
common) for creativity (which is rare)."
"modern architecture, as defined by the pioneers, is
to serve mass culture and to be shaped by mass
production. deconstructivism does not share these
aims. it is, in fact, produced by exquisite craft
technique and appreciated only by a cultural elite --
it is a revival fit for rusk. their claims of social
radicalism is comically at odds with the expensive
houses and chic ristoranti of its production. only the
neurosis of its practitioners confirms its modernist
currency."
"there are two types of environmentalists: those who
understand that the city is part of the environment
and those who do not."
"the facile delusions which conceal from us our true
situation all amount to this: that we are, or can be,
wiser than the wisest men of the past. and it seems to
me that the cause of this situation is that we have
lost all authoritative traditions in which we can
trust." (this little gem from project for new american
century granddaddy, leo strauss.)
"we have legislators who think it their duty only to
listen to the people instead of becoming expert on the
subjects which they must decide upon."
"you either have rules or you have anarchy; and the
enforcement of rules requires a hierarchy."
"this much is evident: aesthetics matter very much to
the middle class."
"it is the absurd premise of real estate marketing to
offer buildings of uniqueness, exclusivity and luxury
to everyman."
"art, in a democracy, should be valued, not by an
elite, but by the marketplace."
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