best way to support artists?
tommy gibson
label e-commerce sites.
These web stores are in addition to the ubiquitous Amazon.com and
TowerRecords.com.
There are Best Buys on every corner and - [if you're lucky] - an
independent record store in [almost]
every large city/town. What's the best way to purchase music so that
the artist gets the greatest benefit?
-tg
Sarah Freeman
-tg
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grady
see them live. You can also just hand them $10, although most of them
would probably be flummoxed by this move. Then again, lately I seem to
find myself wanting to buy merch from an unattended table, so I usually
take what I want & stick the money into the plastic bin with the rest of
the band's merch that's always sitting behind the table. When you do it
that way, you can stick as much in there as you want ;-)
One would hope that buying CDs direct from the label would result in
more money for the artist, but it's likely that many contracts don't
differentiate between various retail outlets (except in the case of
co-op advertising deals with various retailers, in which the label uses
the artist's money to buy preferential placement on those displays at
the ends of the shelves or whatever), so it's possible that buying
direct from the label just gives the label a slightly larger % of the
income. Although if you're talking about an indie label, giving them an
extra buck is probably going to benefit the artists on the label one way
or another anyway, indirectly, if only by keeping the label a viable
concern.
In any case, there is no "standard" label contract, so it's hard to
predict what's going to net the artist the most $$, other than that it's
a safe bet that the margin on those $10 - $15 t-shirts is a wee bit
higher than on the CDs.
Glenn Boothe / Local 506
and the label makes the same amount as if you bought if from the store.
Basically, most labels sell it to the bands at the same price they
sell it to the distributor, so they are getting their cut regardless.
In turn, the band basically reaps the benefits of pocketing the
distributor fee and the store mark-up, which is why bands can sell them
cheaper than stores.
With that said, when you buy a CD from the band, you are then cutting
the store and the distributor out of the picture..and although you
might not care about that, those two are responsible for you buying
other CDs by simllar bands.
So, going back to the anti-Best Buy argument, I think bands selling
their own CDs at shows probably hurts independent record stores as much
as Best Buy. Now, you can argue that having the money going to the
artist is better than some faceless distributor you don't know or some
corporate entity that you don't care to support, but regardless, it's
another factor in the disappearance of Poindexter, Millenium, Radio
Free and all the other stores people supported.
glenn
tommy gibson
A) Go see live music (and buy merch from the bands while you're there).
B) Shop for CDs at local/independent music retailers.
I can do that.
Glenn Boothe / Local 506
a) have the money
b) find it available
Obviously, a is key, but i know there plenty times I plan to buy an
album but don't have the cash on me, and then, of course, something new
presents itself and the original purchase is out of mind. Or, I decide
to come back for that CD and it's gone.
Back to your A and B, I would NOT buy a CD from a band if they are
selling it for more than $12, and I see that at 506 from time to time.
Again, the band is cutting out not one but two middle men (distributor
and record store,) so for them to sell it higher than the local record
store, then they are the ones being greedy. I'd much rather support
the record store in that case.
glenn
grady
performed and (if they're on a small indie label) might well have also
paid to record, while they're on tour in a (probably gas-slurping) van,
sleeping on peoples' floors, eating shitty road food, having to either
burn up their vacation time, quit their jobs, or maintain the kind of
slacker jobs that allow them to take off for weeks at a time, getting
paid a hundred bucks apiece on a "good night" and twenty bucks (or
nothing) on a "bad night"? Greedy to charge more than $12 for a CD, when
the average retail price of a [non-loss-leader Best Buy-super-sale] CD
in the real world is like $16?
Give me a fucking break, man. If they're selling the CD for $15 and you
know it's at CD Alley for $12, go fucking buy it for $12, but leave the
self-righteous attitude out of it. Yeesh. Is there any situation in your
world where the band's interests come first, before those of the fucking
CD distributors even, for chrissake?
Ross
p.s. Yes, we're all aware that you often pay touring bands more than
their entitled percentage of the door when attendance is low, and yadda
yadda. Nobody's seriously questioning your dedication to the bands &
etc. Which is why I find it so bizarre that you find it so easy to
accuse bands of being "greedy" in this instance. If nothing else man,
fuck, let the market do the work--if the CD is in stock at the local
store for cheaper, and you know it, then you can buy it there.
On the other hand, if you're not sure if the local store has it in
stock, then maybe that says something about the local store, but in any
case, no offense to the local store owners, but my allegiance is to the
band every time.
p.p.s. Half the people I know wait & buy the CD at CD Alley or wherever
anyway, because they don't like carrying a CD around with them all night
at a show. Pockets never have grown to be CD-size, except for those
goddamn cargo pants, which I wore in middle school & don't plan to do so
again.
Glenn Boothe / Local 506 wrote:
> Back to your A and B, I would NOT buy a CD from a band if they are
> selling it for more than $12, and I see that at 506 from time to time.
> Again, the band is cutting out not one but two middle men (distributor
> and record store,) so for them to sell it higher than the local record
> store, then they are the ones being greedy. I'd much rather support
> the record store in that case.
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tommy gibson
Uh ... so .... how 'bout them Blue Devils, eh?
Ryan Benjamin
tommy gibson
Matthew Paul
Here is a situation: how about when a band has their material for sale
on consignment at the local music store. The store gets swallowed up by
a competitor and suddenly the band has to "buy back" consignment items
because the stock was sold to the new store. true story btw.
I would say a hearty yes -- buy straight from the band whenever possible
for all the reasons that Ross mentioned.
I have never run a music store (thank god for all of us) but I am
willing to bet that they probably makes next to nothing (in the grand
scheme of things) from your local artist or underground favorite. They
make money off of the drivel that is spewed across the airwaves.
James Hepler
day weekend, and we paid over $200 in gas alone.
You'd have to sell a lot of $15 CD's to break even on
that.
--- grady <gr...@ibiblio.org> wrote:
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James Hepler
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James Hepler
shirts for $10? That's the same price that people
sold shirts for in 1994.
If everyone would up shirt prices to $13 or $15, then
little bands could afford to switch to American
Apparel without spending more than they make. We need
a paradigm shift, here, people!
--- Glenn Boothe / Local 506 <gboo...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Chris Rossi
>
>
> Here is a situation: how about when a band has their material for sale
> on consignment at the local music store. The store gets swallowed up by
> a competitor and suddenly the band has to "buy back" consignment items
> because the stock was sold to the new store. true story btw.
>
first place, so there's no way the competitor bought the cds when they
bought the store. So the competitor doesn't own the cds any more than
the first store ever did. I believe that the competitor didn't
necessarily understand that and were bullying enough to the local band
in question to get them to cave in, but it doesn't mean they had any
legal right to do so.
chris
Bob Wall
be free and clear and get their product back. However (in my vast years
as record store guy) most bands lose these contracts, sometimes never
get a copy because the store doesn't give them one (Gate City Noise for
example), or they don't follow up on the stipulations of the contract
(checking back periodically on product, renewing if necessary).
The other side is that proving all this to a new company usually is a
waste of time to get your 5 copies back when you already have a closet
full of 'em.
Bob
ry...@dyss.net
Happy Valentine's Day!
We didn't have time to get this on our website ...
A very strange band from Portsmouth, New Hampshire is playing tonight at
Nightlight. Well, maybe not very strange, but it's yet another group of kids
getting stoned/mystical, playing chimes, banjo, Sun City Girls/Thinking Fellers
-style electric guitar, singing Dead Kennedys songs, failed
psychelia/blossoming industrial, beating on rocks (much like Carrboro's own
Boner Machine!), and eventually rocking the fuck out! They're called Glacial
Ghost and they have some jams on the internet at
http://www.myspace.com/glacialghost.
For some reason they are playing with a sunny diary-entry lap-pop band from
Raleigh called Sibling Project, so maybe you will feel more well-rounded if you
attend?
Also playing: Eberhardt - one woman screaming for dear life!
Things will start at 10PM! We will probably ask for something like $3 at the
door. We are a cheap date. (Fortunately, beer here is cheap also.)
We are located at 405 1/2 W Rosemary st in Chapel Hill, in the same space as the
Skylight Exchange.
Peace
Love
Ryan & NIGHTLIGHT
Jeremy Blair
affliction or obey t-shirt at the mall, a sweet ass band T on an American
Apparel shirt should be going for $20 min. Out with the hanes beefy t plz
tnx.
chaz
i hear he's a swell guy and doesn't turn down any offers from people
who want to spend money.
but seriously, i do agree, go straight to the artist whenever possible,
a lot of 'em have it set up so you can buy it straight off of myspace
even. kinda cool, bands are getting technical and advanced.
as far as small locals and independent touring artists, buy direct from
them. if i go to their show and like them, i talk with them and try to
go directly thru them when stocking/restocking so they get the money
direct. it turns out in some cases, bands actually refer me to their
distro because it's easier for them.
locals, i would buy directly from them, i don't mark things up in the
shop to really make money off of locals, so it's close the the same
price and you buying directly from them gets them the cash faster.
mainly, the local shop is a good place to browse the bins if you're
just looking for general local stuff.
i "make money" off of cat power and belle & sebastian (except when i
screw up and get them a day late), and they're not coming through here
anytime soon, so it makes sense to reserve those buys for the local
shop.
haha, the etiquette of cd buying.
small, skinny touring bands and locals - buy from them.
the others - buy at your local shop.
t-shirts and other paraphenalia - buy from the bands b/c it'll probably
otherwise be bootlegged and they won't make money off it.
(weed thru the babble and i think that's what i was getting at)
-chaz.
Chris Calloway
> The other side is that proving all this to a new
> company usually is a
> waste of time
also a waste of time as the new store has no
responsibility to anyone coming to claim consignments
to the old store, contract or no. their beef is with
the former owner. selling off their consignments to a
new owner without making restitution is criminal
conversion. it's actionable.
if legal means are taken, and only if, the
consignments could be retrieved as recovered stolen
goods. unless it could be shown the new owner
knowingly received consignments from the old owner.
of course, who's got the time and money to deal with
that through due process?
am i the last one to see this bumpersticker which
reads, "i'm from chapel hill and i'm NOT in a band?"
3
Glenn Boothe / Local 506
felt free to express their opinions without fear that you're going to
drill them a new asshole if you disagree. We might get more diversity
and actually some valid insights, as opposed to a bunch of posts
seconding your thoughts while those who might not agree with you
keeping quiet.
So, maybe 'greedy' isn't the right word, I'll give you that,
but the fact of the matter is that I rarely pay more than $12 for CDs.
I'm not saying you shouldn't, just offering an opinion on a thread
created by someone else. It's just one opinion. What's more,
it's only a few bands that actually do sell their CDs for that much,
and I can't think of any locals. It's usually touring acts on
established labels. And I just believe that if you paid a cover charge
to see the band, then the band should cut you a break on the CD (as
opposed to charging more for it.) I use the word 'greedy' because
that is a word often used to describe major labels, yet, often times,
smaller labels and bands do similar things
So yes, bands should sell their stuff for whatever price point they
wish. A question I get a lot is why are Local 506 t-shirts only $5 -
for me, I'd rather see more shirts on the street than make a few
extra bucks off them. But, that's my choice, not suggesting bands do
the same (although I'd like to think that if you're a musician at
this level then having people hear your music is more exciting than a
few extra bucks as well.)
glenn
grady
gallon for gas, and $4 for lunch. I didn't go to many shows because I
lived in bumfuck nowhere.
In the 90s the average price of a show at the club now owned by you was
around $6. I was still paying $12 for CDs. Lunch had gone up to $6.
It's now 2006. The average price of a show at the club now owned by you
is $8 (not counting Karaoke night & whatnot).
You're apparently still paying $12 for CDs.
A gallon of gas is now $2.40 or so. I paid $7.50 for lunch today.
xo
Ross
p.s. I write in run-on sentences and I cuss a lot. I hardly think either
of those things is all that intimidating, but I have toned them down for
this post, just to see what will happen. Let a hundred flowers bloom.
Or are you suggesting that my arrangements of actual facts into
arguments is what I should suppress?
Glenn Boothe / Local 506
talk to me at the club about stuff I've posted and, several times, I
have been told they don't post on amch in fear of being flamed by you
(or someone else.) Others I've heard have stopped reading altogether.
Your inflation argument doesn't factor in alternative choices, such as
the fact that you can now get music more cheaply (or free) if you
choose. I try not to pay over $12 cos at that point, I'll just look to
burn it from someone. Plus, because it's so cheap to produce CDs,
there are more to choose from. Even though I own 1000's of CDs, there
are plenty of things I'd still like to own so there is no shortage of
acts clamoring for my dollars.
glenn
grady
support artists. Thanks for clarifying your position on that one.
Glenn Boothe / Local 506 wrote:
> I try not to pay over $12 cos at that point, I'll just look to
> burn it from someone.
Matthew Paul
ouch
Joel Peck
on the attack. I believe that a great deal of appreciation and respect are
owed to both Glenn and Grady. If we lost either of them and their efforts
and devotion to the Triangle, we'd be fucked. period.
On that note, there is a responsibility they both have in their positions to
acknowledge their audience. We take our cues from you(don't dispute
me-aren't you reading this too?). If you're both collaborating and working
together and supporting each other, that energy is contagious. It represents
the behavior that should and will be modeled by others. On the other hand,
if you're...
Hey, I live here. I'm in a band here. I'm a fan who listens to radio, buys
CD's, goes to shows, and takes advantage of the many opportunities available
to me. I take for granted sometimes the services you provide. I often seek
the advice and opinions of those with experience whom I respect. Please
consider this and us, who listen and look to you for direction and guidance
in our own, albeit smaller, provincial dealings within the scene. thanks.
Now, how can we go about supporting artists(DJ's and venue owners included)?
James Hepler
campus dedicated to not only bringing local bands to
campus for shows, but also sponsoring shows at local
clubs. With a little bit of student fee funding, they
could pay three bands $50 each and have shows for
free. That would support both the bands and the
venues.
If only there were three students who read this list
and had the time and gumption to do it.
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trekky records
there are already 2 intstitutions: WXYC and CUAB (Carolina Union
Activities Board) that should be doing stuff like that. maybe if they
worked together? both kind of do half hearted indie rock events every
once in a while.
Sarah Freeman
grady
Glenn, regardless of who charges what for CDs & whatnot. However, as
many many many people have pointed out over the years, I'm also nearly
impossible to stop when it comes to arguing about shit like this.
Of course, so is he ;-)
So thanks. I'll shut up now, although I would like to point out that I'm
pretty sure that I, at least, could disappear tomorrow and while I'm
sure a few people (and 2 cats) would have their lives disrupted, life in
general, and local music in particular, would carry on just fine. That's
one of the many good things about this place -- people make bands & play
music because they love it & because they can't seem to stop themselves,
not because it's the popular thing to do, or because they're looking to
curry favor with some group in particular, or make a million bucks. Not
that I'd be much help on that front, either.
xo
Ross
grady
"sponsoring shows at local clubs" front.
Although I assume no money changes hands, because (a) WXYC doesn't have
any (and is funded magically via some really crazy setup that's
different from most other student entities), and (b) can you imagine the
paperwork you'd have to fill out, and the hoo-doo in the legislature if
some crazed nutjob from Down East got wind that student monies were
being handed out willy-nilly to bars? Um, I mean *officially collected
student fees*, I guess; lord knows there's gajillions of dollars in
unofficial student monies being handed out willy-nilly to bars on a
nightly basis around here.
I *would* like to see somebody resurrect those shows at the UNC student
center; they were fun. They were also kinda weird, because that room is
kinda weird in a classic "institutional multi-purpose-room" kind of way.
Of course, for all I know, they might be having regular shows there, and
not telling us, which would be OK, since I'm not a student & thus not
the target audience. Students?
Ross
Joel Peck
frustration is evident in your replies. Sometimes, it's best to take the
past experiences and use them to help when trying again. With all the red
tape involved in using student fees for local shows, is there a new strategy
that could be devised that anticipates obstacles like the ones you
mentioned?
There's a million examples to support "why we can't." Any sense in changing
the wording to
"Why can't we?"
James Hepler
lines of UNC, where town gown relations are slightly
less rocky. Also where the town is much smaller.
James Hepler
really appreciate the local music community get off
their asses and get themselves on the board. WXYC
does a lot already, and that's because there are
motivated individuals who take it upon themselves to
do the work.
Both of those groups are fairly exclusive in terms of
who they bring into their flock. I was thinking that
if a handful of people put their heads together, they
could form a recognized student group. A fund raiser
or two, some funds from SAFO, and they could get some
shit done. I tried when I worked at the student
union, but I was staff and therefore just a sponsor
for the group. We couldn't get our act together and
didn't do a thing.
Glenn Boothe / Local 506
Grady, there are a million of kids downloading free music as I type,
and you keep trying to paint me as some type of bad guy. I probably
buy more CDs than most people reading this and, even though I say I
don't pay over $12, I did drop $13.98 for the new Belle & Sebastian at
CD Alley last week, even knowing that Best Buy had it significantly
cheaper. On the other side of that, there are albums I've bought
(Kanye West, Ted Leo, etc.) even though I had a burned copy.
My point is that, at around $12, and probably more like $10, I have to
think how much I really want this CD. At $10 or below, it's an impulse
buy to me. I share that info because I think it's valuable to bands -
price it too high and you might lose potential customers.
glenn
James Hepler
--- grady <gr...@ibiblio.org> wrote:
> And don't forget the WXYC Backyard BBQ nights at
> Local 506, on the
> "sponsoring shows at local clubs" front.
>
> Although I assume no money changes hands, because
> (a) WXYC doesn't have
> any (and is funded magically via some really crazy
> setup that's
> different from most other student entities), and (b)
> can you imagine the
> paperwork you'd have to fill out, and the hoo-doo in
> the legislature if
> some crazed nutjob from Down East got wind that
> student monies were
> being handed out willy-nilly to bars? Um, I mean
> *officially collected
> student fees*, I guess; lord knows there's
> gajillions of dollars in
> unofficial student monies being handed out
> willy-nilly to bars on a
> nightly basis around here.
Well, two things. First, WXYC lacks the credibility
campuswide to influence students and convince them to
go to shows. And doing so is not necessarily why they
exist. I mean, both XYC and XDU pretty clearly state
that their mission is to broaden horizons, not feed
the kids what they already like. And like I said,
they've done a lot of great work over the years and
continue to do good work. I know Mr. Nahm for one
deserves many accolades for his efforts.
Second, student money wouldn't go to the bars. The
student money would go to the bands. The bar would be
the venue. The hard part would be the private club
issue with the 506 and Wetlands, both of which would
otherwise be great venues for these kinds of shows.
> I *would* like to see somebody resurrect those shows
> at the UNC student
> center; they were fun. They were also kinda weird,
> because that room is
> kinda weird in a classic "institutional
> multi-purpose-room" kind of way.
I had a good time at those. But again, the CUAB board
has a high turnover rate. They do events as single
events and ignore the long term benefit of creating a
series that would recur. People forget about those
single shows when exams are coming and when it's
basketball season.
> Of course, for all I know, they might be having
> regular shows there, and
> not telling us, which would be OK, since I'm not a
> student & thus not
> the target audience. Students?
They're not as far as I know. If they were and even
promoting it a little bit, wifey would know.
James Hepler
red tape there is if your student group is recognized.
And the cost of putting on a show like I'm talking
about is tiny compared to bringing in some famous dude
to talk about politics or some shit.
But this is the thing, a handful of motivated students
could find all this out. The university encourages
students to organize, particularly under their student
activity umbrella. They make the information fairly
easy to obtain and understand. Jon Curtis is the
Assistant Director for Student Activities and
Organizations. 962-1461.
And while this starts small, there's no reason why in
the long run this could bring about a reprise of some
of those good ole days when kickass bands would play
memorial. But now I'm just dreaming.
James Hepler
half-apologize.
Talk to Calloway about grassroots organizing.
Students who care absolutely can NOT rely on XYC, CUAB
or anyone else to make this better for them. If they
care, and if there are enough of them, and if they
know a little about what they're doing (have good
guidance), then they have everything they need in
order to bring about their own change. And that's
what it takes.
Of course, as it is now, things are pretty good in
terms of the level of musical activity and the number
of outlets in town for music. The question is what
change do they want to bring about? For me the answer
is to improve the relationship between campus and the
mucial community. That's what those students would
have to care about. And we know that some care
because they come here and say so, but are there
enough that share common interests and have the time
to do anything?
trekky records
i simply have too much on my plate and not enough time. i'd be willing
to help out because i think its really important, but to take the lead
of it would be unfair to its success.
although i agree we can't rely on XYC or CUAB, it seems silly to start
another organization that would do similar things. the human recources
for doing something like that would already be tied up in those
groups...
James Hepler
from is that even if they are doing similar things,
not enough is being done in that specific area.
And yeah, I figure most people who would care about
these things are probably damn active in other aspects
of their lives. There's the rub.
--- trekky records <willh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Ben Davis
when I was in school at JMU in VA - I was the "Big Events" chair for
WXJM - which meant organizing shows for bands - We did shows for over
200 bands in 3 years - of which I would guess half were from Chapel Hill
- and without much if any of the student activity money from the school
- we just used the shit out of the facilities....
James Hepler
trekky records
radio station as far as i know. harrisonburg doesn't even really have a
great scene (as far as i know) and they still do amazing stuff.
grady
this question in the way that I should've:
The best way to support [musical] artists is to go see them play, and
drag your friends along with you. Clap & cheer for them. Go up to them
after the show & tell them you enjoyed it. Most of the bands around
here, at least the ones doing worthwhile music, don't seem to be all
that hung up on the money, at least not as long as they're playing
in-town. Touring bands are different: they've gotta make a certain
amount per night just to keep gas in the van & food in their stomachs,
nevermind paying all the rent & bills that are still accruing back at
home. Buy a T-shirt from them.
The thing we've been talking about off & on for weeks is how to get more
people out to see shows. This is partly out of concern for the "health
of the scene," whatever that is (and I'm amazed at how many people carry
a negative connotation for the word "scene" -- it makes them think of
jaded exclusionary cooler-than-thou hipster cliques -- so I need to
remember to use "community," which has its own weird connotations, but
whatever), but partly because if we're hanging out on this newsgroup,
it's likely because we really love the buzz we get from seeing people
play music together, live, in real-time.
So if you want to support the artists: haul your friends out to the
shows when you go. Make a night of it. And make a night of it more
often: exercise what little influence you have with your friends to
convert a plain-old night out in the bars, into a night out in the bars
that feature live music.
And maybe you'll spend half your time standing in the back talking.
That's OK, unless the band is so quiet that you're annoying everybody
else. But maybe you'll spend the other half of the time watching the
bands & remembering how much fun that can be. & then you'll do it again.
Ross
Duncan Murrell
give them a job that allows them to either make their art, or allows
them the time to make that art without sapping their energy.
Short of that:
1. Affordable health plans for practicing artists
2. Affordable rental housing, in general, especially near where they
work and/or practice their art.
3. SBA or private loans/bridge loans/lines of credit to finance
intense periods of art-making (touring, completing work for an
exhibition, working on a story/book that needs some dedicated
attention.) Yes, there are grants available, but they are few;
universal access to supplementary money (within reason) would help
the creative community, and the rest of the community would reap the
benefits ultimately. It would also put a few people into debt, I'm
sure, but no artist makes a breakthrough without taking a risk.
So, you can help create some of this. Or you can give a m-fer a job
that doesn't suck.
d
On Feb 16, 2006, at 6:48 AM, grady wrote:
> You know, it occurred to me this morning that I never really answered
> this question in the way that I should've:
>
> The best way to support [musical] artists is to go see them play, and
> drag your friends along with you.
grady
Duncan Murrell wrote:
> So, you can help create some of this. Or you can give a m-fer a job
> that doesn't suck.
Duncan Murrell
d
grady
> 1. Affordable health plans for practicing artists
Why stop there? Affordable health care for everybody. And by
"affordable" I mean "universal". Or we can just keep having benefits
anytime anybody we know gets sick, which works great if the doctor bill
is under $800 or so. Everybody take yr vitamins!
Do indie-rockers vote? Would it matter, since even 95% of Democratic
politicians can't get over their fear of Clintonism/rejection by the
insurance industry long enough to come out & say what most normal people
realize: the government builds roads because they're vital to commerce,
and difficult to make profitable, but for some reason it thinks it's
preferable to stay out of healthcare, even though it's vital to commerce
(not to mention life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, etc) and downright
*immoral* to provide at a profit.
> 2. Affordable rental housing, in general, especially near where they
> work and/or practice their art.
Welcome to Durham!
> 3. SBA or private loans/bridge loans/lines of credit to finance
> intense periods of art-making (touring, completing work for an
> exhibition, working on a story/book that needs some dedicated
> attention.) Yes, there are grants available, but they are few;
> universal access to supplementary money (within reason) would help
> the creative community, and the rest of the community would reap the
> benefits ultimately. It would also put a few people into debt, I'm
> sure, but no artist makes a breakthrough without taking a risk.
I was thinking about this yesterday while in the throes of that, ahem,
"discussion" with Glenn. Most artforms carry at least some level of
public support & public assumption that such support is both necessary
and appropriate. That's rarely the case with "rock music," even when the
"rock music" is every bit as anti-popular as the "fine arts" ;-) .
One of the things bugging me about that earlier conversation was the
inherent assumption, on both our parts, that somehow the "free market"
was an inherent & necessary factor. Glenn's saying "don't charge too
much for CDs lest market forces drive your audience to extra-market
alternatives" (the irony being that there's nothing particularly "free
market" about ripping/downloading CDs for free). Whereas I'm saying
"overhead has gone up dramatically, so it's to be expected that the
prices of the product should go up as well," as if bands were
corporations (well, apart from PiL), and as if any of the ones we love
had much chance/hope of ever breaking even anyway.
I mean, shit, we're both wrong. Into which column do you put "thousands
of hours of free labor" at practice, and "the spaghetti dinner those
kids made us in Akron" and everything else that adds up to the fact that
it's hard to propose a market-based solution to an extra-market problem?
Best way to support artists? Brainwashing: make 'em think they're
stockbrokers. They'll be fine.
xo
Ross
James Hepler
That's why I push tables for a living. Just got done
moving some furniture. Hellz yeah.
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per share.
--- grady <gr...@ibiblio.org> wrote:
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matty
you can get professional mastering/duplication/printing for <$2/disc, you
could DYI-it for probably <$0.50/disc.
On the other hand, minimum wage is up from $3.35 to a whopping $5.15, so
we're rolling in dough.
But $12 for CDs in the 80's was a huge ripoff. Now $12 - $14 feels okay to
me if the disc is good, but it's too much to do a lot of speculative buying.
I'll go out on a limb much more often in the $8/used bin or especially the
$5 - $10 range buying directly from a band at a show. A band selling a CD
for $15 at a show is usually a turn-off for me, I'm positively more likely
to buy the $10 disc and give them gas money or couch space than do anything
if the disc is $15 or more.
-Matt
"grady" <gr...@ibiblio.org> wrote in message
news:43F29A9...@ibiblio.org...
>I was paying $12 for CDs back in the 80's. I was also paying 95 cents a
> gallon for gas, and $4 for lunch. I didn't go to many shows because I
> lived in bumfuck nowhere.
>
> In the 90s the average price of a show at the club now owned by you was
> around $6. I was still paying $12 for CDs. Lunch had gone up to $6.
>
> It's now 2006. The average price of a show at the club now owned by you
> is $8 (not counting Karaoke night & whatnot).
>
> You're apparently still paying $12 for CDs.
>
> A gallon of gas is now $2.40 or so. I paid $7.50 for lunch today.
>
> xo
>
> Ross
>
grady
for <$2/disc in 1995, as long as I was doing 1000 CDs. "Mastering" is
something where you get what you pay for, pretty much.
The cost of studio time has decreased somewhat, primarily because there
are so many "prosumer" home-studios driving down the "going rate" among
bands that don't believe that a talented engineer with quality gear is
worth paying extra for.
The cost of "doing business" for touring bands (gas, food, lodging) has
increased substantially, however.
Most of us would be willing to pay a *lot* more for a CD that we love
than for a crappy CD that we wind up listening to twice. If you've just
seen a band that totally blew you away, and you didn't know them well
enough to own their CD before the show, then you'd probably happily pay
$15.
On the other hand, while I don't keep a running tally of the merch at
shows, how often are the CDs priced above $10? I kinda feel like this
whole discussion has been predicated on a flawed premise.
If the CDs are $15 at the show (when/if that actually occurs) then does
that affect your impression of the band, including how good you felt the
music was? I'm fascinated by the intersection of art & commerce, and how
one can influence the other.
Ross
Ben Davis
allowed after the success of our annual benefit concert (that included
up and comers Dave Mathews and the Pie Tasters.....) called "Kool Aid"
skillet...@gmail.com
other bands on the bill are selling their merch cheaper, in which case
we may drop our prices, too. that also depends on if we're outta town,
what kind of merch the other band is selling (cheap 50/50 shirts for
$10, low-rent copies of cd's for $10 or less). but we're selling
American Apparel shirts and hi-rent digipacs so we're we're not going
to drop our prices too much. if you want crap, go ahead and buy it.
market forces, indeed.
we charge what we charge b/c it is the only way we make any money,
aside from local shows and 3 or 4 out of town gigs that have finally
started paying off after 4 years of going there again and again.....and
by paying off/making money, i mean we break even, maybe.
our label gives us nothing but a cut-rate on the price of our cd's. we
pay for the t-shirts, the stickers, the posters, the gas, the food,
hotel rooms, new transmissions, tires, visits to the doc in a box, all
our gear, insurance, rehearsal space rent etc..... all for the chance
to maybe make $100 and get a free 12 pack. do the math and it will
never add up. and, we're one of the lucky ones, too, as the recording
of the cd was paid for by the label. initially, we paid all the
recording costs until said label stepped in, decided they liked us and
reimbursed us. we had planned on paying for all of it.
the are, literally, hundreds of dollars to be made over dozens of years
playing music.
oh yeah, then divide that 100's of dollars over dozens of years by 4,
as that seems to be the average number of band members.
this is all to say that, yes, bands can be greedy but it's only to
maybe, maybe cover their "monthly nut". i dare say that if a club's
expenses and their return were proportionate with a band's, you'd be
seeing a lot of $6 PBR's and $15 JagerBombs out there.
glenn, that's not a dig at you. just clubs in general that seem to have
absolutely no problem feeding their coffers by way of bands. i know,
i've worked in them and damn sure played in them.
so, if anyone wants to support some local music tomorrow night at the
506, the Strugglers, Patty Hurst Shifter and Dex and his New Romans
will be there, ready to see market forces in action.
in the name of rock,
sg
Bryk
i would assume that glenn has invested a pretty big chunk of his
savings into 506, for what my parents probably wouldn't consider
"much of a living". it's as much of a labour of love as being a
broke-ass indie rock fool like myself. (admittedly, the main
difference being glenn is ONE rung up from the bottom of the food
chain, above the artist's traditional position).
OK, for the sake or argument, everyone who's not republican-tax-break-
wealthy has only so much they can drop on buying music.
for the record, let's say on average i spend $100-200 a month on CDs
and the occasional legit download.
i try to balance out buying the things i expect to really treasure,
listen to constantly and obsessively, artists i'm already into, with
maybe downloading or burning music i want to explore, or artists i
admire but don't really love. even when i've downloaded or burned
stuff that i found i was really into, it's in my nature to want to
ultimately own it. i spent a decade freelancing and slumming in
music retail (for the aforementioned career flexibility). i have a
ugly WALL of vinyl and CDs, at this point a bad investment in every
sense BUT the artistic/cultural.
if i bought EVERY CD i wanted to listen to, i would probably end up
living in my car.
until it was reposessed.
are you telling us that you've NEVER burned a CD you just wanted to
check out?
dan
p.s. fuck! the restaurant muzak is playing michael mcdonald's "reach
out (i'll be there)" and i think i just threw up in my mouth.
On 15-Feb-06, at 7:23 AM, grady wrote:
> The thread was (and still is, subject-heading-wise) about how best to
> support artists. Thanks for clarifying your position on that one.
>
> Glenn Boothe / Local 506 wrote:
>> I try not to pay over $12 cos at that point, I'll just look to
>> burn it from someone.
Bryk
@#%^&$* os x mail!
i never shoulda switched from Eudora.
Kevin Grealey
You had me at "a free 12 pack."
grealey
> From: <skillet...@gmail.com>
> Organization: http://groups.google.com
> Reply-To: RTP-area local music and culture <ch-s...@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: 16 Feb 2006 10:24:20 -0800
> To: <ch-s...@lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: best way to support artists?
>
> -- ch-scene: the list that mirrors alt.music.chapel-hill --
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
MCKINNEY /
James Hepler
loan sometime.
--- Bryk <chs...@bryk.com> wrote:
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peace and love
bartender felt so guilty he then offered us all the single serving size
bags of chips he had on this little stand.
we took them...
grady
> ross, WTF that was a little harsh.
Yes, it was. However, you have to admit that giving bands a binary
choice between charging <$12/CD or losing a sale to a burned copy is
also a little harsh. Glenn subsequently pointed out that he was merely
giving voice to the same decision being made daily by gazillions of
kids, and that their threshold amount is probably closer to $3. Or maybe
he didn't point that out exactly, but he was right, in whatever he said.
Damn these kids today. I should have directed my reaction at the Gods of
the Youth Market, rather than at Glenn.
That still doesn't do much to help the artists, however, except for in a
sort of Bushian sense of "helping" them to confront the reality of how
fucked they are.
But most musicians I know don't need any more help with that one, as
Skillet so eloquently pointed out.
I suppose one could translate what Glenn was saying into "bands who
charge more than $12 per CD are probably shooting themselves in the
foot, because the kids today will have the *perception* (as voiced by
Matt Hedt earlier) that anything more than $12 is somehow a ripoff,
regardless of reality."
What *I* don't understand is why anybody can bitch at all about any
prices down at the indie-rock level we're talking about. Have y'all been
to Walnut Creek lately (or to that Stones show at Duke last year)? You
get half as much music for 100X the price, *and* it sucks ass to boot.
Plus you have to pay to park, and half the time you get rained on. $8
for a show at a bar with $3 beers and $12 CDs is quite possibly the last
greatest entertainment bargain in the universe.
There's an essay in this month's Atlantic Monthly about how the American
public is way more skeptical of/hostile towards Capitalism than it has
any right to be, given how well Capitalism works. Sellers set prices and
buyers willingly buy things at those prices, all without any central
control or interference. It sure was funny. I laughed & laughed.
> are you telling us that you've NEVER burned a CD you just wanted to
> check out?
Fuck, man, my shelves are full of burned CDs that I *didn't* want to
check out. I have this little problem with obsessively
collecting/cataloging all the local music. If you makes you feel any
better, I never listen to any of it, though.
xo
Ross
John I
A-Men. Give me a smokey crowded bar where I can see The Pink Slips, SNMNMNM,
and whomever for 6 bones over an overpriced vanity case like Madonna, et al.
any day of the week. Just make it start at 8 and stop by 10.
david gourley
No, no -it's rock! It must go to 11 !
david
James Hepler
James Hepler
Show!
--- david gourley <davidg.no...@verizon.net>
wrote:
Chris Rossi
xo
chris
--
http://spacelabstudio.com
my email address is 'chris' at above domain
david gourley
@spacelabstudio.com:
> You clearly missed the spinal tap reference.
>
> xo
> chris
>
> James Hepler wrote:
>> Screw that. I want to be home in time for The Daily
>> Show!
>>
>> --- david gourley <davidg.no...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>John I <n...@hotmail.com>
>>>news:Xns976CA41BB...@66.26.32.7:
>>>
>snippage
>>>>A-Men. Give me a smokey crowded bar where I can
>>>
>>>see The Pink Slips,
>>>
>>>>SNMNMNM, and whomever for 6 bones over an
>>>
>>>overpriced vanity case like
>>>
>>>>Madonna, et al. any day of the week. Just make it
>>>
>>>start at 8 and stop
>>>
>>>>by 10.
>>>>
>>>
>>>No, no -it's rock! It must go to 11 !
>>>
>>>david
Yes, clearly !
david
James Hepler
Chris Calloway
> You're a mean one, saucy chris!
this forum would be more interesting if people felt
free to express their opinions without fear that chris
rossi is going to drill them a new asshole if chris
rossi disagrees. we might get more diversity and
actually some valid insights, as opposed to a bunch of
posts seconding chris rossi's thoughts while those who
might not agree with chris rossi keep quiet. all i'm
trying to say is there a lot of people who email me
offline or talk to me at the club about stuff i've
posted and, several times, i have been told they don't
post on amch in fear of being flamed by chris rossi or
someone else. others i've heard have stopped reading
altogether.
someone even told me the sames are breaking up because
of chris rossi.
3
James Hepler
Jessica breakup, they were seen leaving the big house
after a short recording session with Rossi.
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Reese Gibbs
James Hepler <james...@yahoo.com> wrote: People don't know this, but just before the Nick and
Jessica breakup, they were seen leaving the big house
after a short recording session with Rossi.
--- Chris Calloway wrote:
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
Chris Rossi
> --- James Hepler <james...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>You're a mean one, saucy chris!
>
>
> this forum would be more interesting if people felt
> free to express their opinions without fear that chris
> rossi is going to drill them a new asshole if chris
> rossi disagrees. we might get more diversity and
> actually some valid insights, as opposed to a bunch of
> posts seconding chris rossi's thoughts while those who
> might not agree with chris rossi keep quiet. all i'm
> trying to say is there a lot of people who email me
> offline or talk to me at the club about stuff i've
> posted and, several times, i have been told they don't
> post on amch in fear of being flamed by chris rossi or
> someone else. others i've heard have stopped reading
> altogether.
>
> someone even told me the sames are breaking up because
> of chris rossi.
>
It's true. I've wanted Zeno all to myself for years now. Now we're
free to start our own band of recording studio owners only. It's
nothing but triple tracked twin guitar solos from here on out.
rossi
Fikri Yucel
> It's true. I've wanted Zeno all to myself for years
> now. Now we're
> free to start our own band of recording studio
> owners only. It's
> nothing but triple tracked twin guitar solos from
> here on out.
>
> rossi
>
FINALLY something I can get behind wholeheartedly...
Dual lead guitars forever.
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chasw
shows, buy their CDs through independent distributors like CD baby, buy
their individual tracks via iTunes, etc., email your local college, NPR or
fringe element radio station and request your fav tune be played in prime
time.
If an artist is signed by a major company and you can buy their CDs through
normal channels, fine and dandy. But as you may be noticing, the 5 majors
are slowly going out of business and most of the rising stars are not on
their radar screen anyway. Accordingly, most new talent artists are
producing their own tracks/CDs and distributing them through alternative
channels like CD baby, mp3.com and artistdirect. Someone (Bjork, I think)
said "the personal computer is the folk instrument of the 21st Century".
- CW
http://www.johnwinters.biz/
x"tommy gibson" <tcgi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:LmRHf.10500$Nv2....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Thanks to the web, most recordings can be bought directly from record
> label e-commerce sites.
> These web stores are in addition to the ubiquitous Amazon.com and
> TowerRecords.com.
> There are Best Buys on every corner and - [if you're lucky] - an
> independent record store in [almost]
> every large city/town. What's the best way to purchase music so that the
> artist gets the greatest benefit?
>
x
Never call me Phil
one thing i spend a lot of time on the A train these days but also i
don't ever agree with miss rossi and i fear having a new asshole
drilled, That could be very bad on the A train.
tommy Gibson
Allow me to repeat my question ... How 'bout them Blue Devils, eh?
James Hepler wrote:
> Fuck those guys.
>
> --- tommy gibson <tcgi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Whoa!
>>
>>Uh ... so .... how 'bout them Blue Devils, eh?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>grady wrote:
>>
>>>Being greedy to sell their own CDs of their own
>>
>>music that they wrote &
>>
>>>performed and (if they're on a small indie label)
>>
>>might well have also
>>
>>>paid to record, while they're on tour in a
>>
>>(probably gas-slurping) van,
>>
>>>sleeping on peoples' floors, eating shitty road
>>
>>food, having to either
>>
>>>burn up their vacation time, quit their jobs, or
>>
>>maintain the kind of
>>
>>>slacker jobs that allow them to take off for weeks
>>
>>at a time, getting
>>
>>>paid a hundred bucks apiece on a "good night" and
>>
>>twenty bucks (or
>>
>>>nothing) on a "bad night"? Greedy to charge more
>>
>>than $12 for a CD, when
>>
>>>the average retail price of a [non-loss-leader
>>
>>Best Buy-super-sale] CD
>>
>>>in the real world is like $16?
>>>
>>>Give me a fucking break, man. If they're selling
>>
>>the CD for $15 and you
>>
>>>know it's at CD Alley for $12, go fucking buy it
>>
>>for $12, but leave the
>>
>>>self-righteous attitude out of it. Yeesh. Is there
>>
>>any situation in your
>>
>>>world where the band's interests come first,
>>
>>before those of the fucking
>>
>>>CD distributors even, for chrissake?
>>>
>>>Ross
>>>
>>>p.s. Yes, we're all aware that you often pay
>>
>>touring bands more than
>>
>>>their entitled percentage of the door when
>>
>>attendance is low, and yadda
>>
>>>yadda. Nobody's seriously questioning your
>>
>>dedication to the bands &
>>
>>>etc. Which is why I find it so bizarre that you
>>
>>find it so easy to
>>
>>>accuse bands of being "greedy" in this instance.
>>
>>If nothing else man,
>>
>>>fuck, let the market do the work--if the CD is in
>>
>>stock at the local
>>
>>>store for cheaper, and you know it, then you can
>>
>>buy it there.
>>
>>>On the other hand, if you're not sure if the local
>>
>>store has it in
>>
>>>stock, then maybe that says something about the
>>
>>local store, but in any
>>
>>>case, no offense to the local store owners, but my
>>
>>allegiance is to the
>>
>>>band every time.
>>>
>>>p.p.s. Half the people I know wait & buy the CD at
>>
>>CD Alley or wherever
>>
>>>anyway, because they don't like carrying a CD
>>
>>around with them all night
>>
>>>at a show. Pockets never have grown to be CD-size,
>>
>>except for those
>>
>>>goddamn cargo pants, which I wore in middle school
>>
>>& don't plan to do so
>>
>>>again.
>>>
>>>Glenn Boothe / Local 506 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Back to your A and B, I would NOT buy a CD from a
>>
>>band if they are
>>
>>>>selling it for more than $12, and I see that at
>>
>>506 from time to time.
>>
>>>>Again, the band is cutting out not one but two
>>
>>middle men (distributor
>>
>>>>and record store,) so for them to sell it higher
>>
>>than the local record
>>
>>>>store, then they are the ones being greedy. I'd
>>
>>much rather support
>>
>>>>the record store in that case.
>>>
>>>
>>>-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors
>>
>>alt.music.chapel-hill --
>>
>>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
>>
>>-- ch-scene: the list that mirrors
>>alt.music.chapel-hill --
>>http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/ch-scene
>>
>
>
>
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