Mähler portrait from 1804 (again)...
Donn Miller
Beethoven. If you look at the left side of the face, you can see
pockmarks. Also, there's that strange bulge you see on the left side of
his chin that shows up in the later portraits, like the original sketch
by Kloeber, for example. I actually don't see how he looks like a
"dandy" in this portrait. In fact, he looks quite average-looking,
which what I think he must've looked like: average with some "oddities",
like the bulge on the left side of the chin, for example. What exactly
was that thing, anyways? I think he may have sustained a hairline
fracture on his face or jaw at one point, and these types of fractures
sometimes cause the bone to grow excessively over the fracture as it
heals, leaving a clump of bone.
At least I think the portrait gets the physique of Beethoven correct.
He has muscular thighs, and muscular arms. Well, he looks like he's
starting to gain weight in that portrait...
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Joyce Maier
"Donn Miller" <dmmi...@cvzoom.net> schreef in bericht
news:3D220102...@cvzoom.net...
> Actually, this looks like it could possibly be a pretty good likeness of
> Beethoven. If you look at the left side of the face, you can see
> pockmarks. Also, there's that strange bulge you see on the left side of
> his chin that shows up in the later portraits, like the original sketch
> by Kloeber, for example. I actually don't see how he looks like a
> "dandy" in this portrait.
Hm, I find him too beautiful. I'm not a lover of this portrait. I prefer
the Hornemann. But maybe that's a matter of taste.
> In fact, he looks quite average-looking,
> which what I think he must've looked like: average with some "oddities",
> like the bulge on the left side of the chin, for example. What exactly
> was that thing, anyways?
His chin was very asymmetric.
> I think he may have sustained a hairline
> fracture on his face or jaw at one point, and these types of fractures
> sometimes cause the bone to grow excessively over the fracture as it
> heals, leaving a clump of bone.
Nothing is known about fractures.
Joyce Maier
www.ademu.com/Beethoven
Donn Miller
Joyce Maier wrote:
> Hm, I find him too beautiful. I'm not a lover of this portrait. I prefer
> the Hornemann. But maybe that's a matter of taste.
He has a slightly Hispanic look to him in that portrait, and the Mahler
as well. From what I know, the Flemish people have some hispanic
ancestry. This is consistent with the names he was called when he was
younger: "the Spaniard".
Donn Miller
Donn Miller wrote:
> He has a slightly Hispanic look to him in that portrait, and the Mahler
> as well. From what I know, the Flemish people have some hispanic
> ancestry. This is consistent with the names he was called when he was
> younger: "the Spaniard".
Oh yeah, and here's a link to that portrait so others can see what I'm
talking about:
http://users.ev1.net/~yardbird/beethoven.html
Joyce Maier
>
>
> Joyce Maier wrote:
>
> > Hm, I find him too beautiful. I'm not a lover of this portrait. I
prefer
> > the Hornemann. But maybe that's a matter of taste.
>
> He has a slightly Hispanic look to him in that portrait, and the Mahler
> as well. From what I know, the Flemish people have some hispanic
> ancestry.
That's a step too far. Only some Flemish people have this ancestry.
Actually most of them have not. Research has shown that there's little
reason to assume Spanish blood in the Beethoven family. If it was there,
it must have been the result of an extramatrimonial affair.
Joyce Maier
www.ademu.com/Beethoven
Donn Miller
> That's a step too far. Only some Flemish people have this ancestry.
> Actually most of them have not. Research has shown that there's little
> reason to assume Spanish blood in the Beethoven family. If it was there,
> it must have been the result of an extramatrimonial affair.
Heh! I was just checking out the genuine portraits section on your web
site.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~ademu/Beethoven/Btl/08erfenis.htm#gallery
I must say that when I came to the 1815 (Mähler) portrait, I had to
laugh out loud and say "yeah, right!" to myself. There's NO WAY he
could've actually looked like that. He looks like Gene Simmons or
something. If he did look like that, well I'd be very surprised.
Also, on an unrelated note, this one website says this portrait of
Giullietta was "recently questioned".
http://dienstleistungen.freepage.de/language/guilietta.gif
The web site is here.
Joyce Maier
> Joyce Maier wrote:
>
> > That's a step too far. Only some Flemish people have this ancestry.
> > Actually most of them have not. Research has shown that there's little
> > reason to assume Spanish blood in the Beethoven family. If it was
there,
> > it must have been the result of an extramatrimonial affair.
>
> Heh! I was just checking out the genuine portraits section on your web
> site.
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~ademu/Beethoven/Btl/08erfenis.htm#gallery
>
> I must say that when I came to the 1815 (Mähler) portrait, I had to
> laugh out loud and say "yeah, right!" to myself. There's NO WAY he
> could've actually looked like that. He looks like Gene Simmons or
> something. If he did look like that, well I'd be very surprised.
I fully agree. Yet it's for sure that it's a genuine portrait. Various
researchers have expressed their opinion that Maehler was not a first
class painter. I tend to agree and for me that's enough to put also a
question mark behind the Maehler-1804.
> Also, on an unrelated note, this one website says this portrait of
> Giullietta was "recently questioned".
Yes, I know. As far as I know the first who did so was Gerda
Brosche-Graeser. She did so in the seventies. She and Tellenbach, a good
researcher (in contrast to Brosche), agree that it shows us the face of
Charlotte Brunswick, Josephine's sister. I disagree. On my website you'll
find a portrait of Charlotte at the age of about 40. Is that the same
woman? I strongly doubt it. If you want to see it: go to 'Beethovens
raadsels', then to 'Inleiding', then to 'Afbeeldingenlijst' and then
scroll a bit. You'll stumble on Charlotte's name. Just click on the link.
Notwithstanding this disagreement I agree with Brosche and Tellenbach (and
various others, Brandenburg, for instance) that there's something to say
for the opinion that the Giulietta miniature probably shows us the face of
another, unknown woman. The question is: who? The Immortal Beloved?
Joyce Maier
www.ademu.com/Beethoven
Kevin Ward
> I must say that when I came to the 1815 (Mähler) portrait, I had to
> laugh out loud and say "yeah, right!" to myself. There's NO WAY he
> could've actually looked like that. He looks like Gene Simmons or
> something.
Well, he was a bit of a headbanger in his own way. "Roll over Beethoven," indeed!
-- Kevin