Re: Murnau's "Faust"
Old Movie Fan
films with Emil Jannings in them.
Jannings could appear in films just a year apart, and you cannot even
recognize him as the same man. His acting is really quite good.
A year before "Faust," he plays a aging Hotel doorman in "The Last
Laugh" and a year after "Faust" he plays a Russian General in "The Last
Command."
He also did a good job as Othello in the 1922 film.
Rich Wagner
Old Movie Fan
> films I want to see:
>Phantom
>The Last Command
>Die Nibelungen
>Dr. Mabuse: The Gambler
>October
>Warning Shadows: A Nocturnal Hallucination
> Secrets of a Soul
>Tartuffe
>Spies
>A very German list, yes. :)
I've seen the first five and enjoyed them all, except perhaps
"Phantom." It's watchable, but I wasn't very impressed with the story.
Haven't seen or even heard of the others except for "Spies."
You might also want to check out Fritz Lang's "Woman in the Moon"
(1929), even though it's way too long (nearly three hours), and an hour
of that is pure nonsense.
Still, this is a pretty neat sci-fi picture that foresaw man's voyage
into space.
It's the first time that a countdown had been used anywhere, and the
first stage separation scene in space looks like it came from NASA's
archives. The miniatures are pretty amazing.
Rich Wagner
Lloyd Fonvielle
> At this point, these are the big remaining silent films I want to see:
>
> Phantom
> The Last Command
> Die Nibelungen
> Dr. Mabuse: The Gambler
> October
> Warning Shadows: A Nocturnal Hallucination
> Secrets of a Soul
> Tartuffe
> Spies
>
> A very German list, yes. :)
I think you'll find "Phantom" a disappointment after "Faust" -- it has
some great images but is probably Murnau's weakest film.
I also found "Warning Shadows" very disappointing -- often incoherent
and, when not incoherent, preposterous. The images are mostly quite
lame, as are the acting and what passes for the story.
--
Mar de Cortes Baja
www.mardecortesbaja.com <http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog>
Old Movie Fan
It's more modern and not a Gothic story like most of the others, but
it is a classic IMO.
Lloyd Fonvielle
One of the greatest of all silent films.
Lloyd Fonvielle
> What happened to this newsgroup, anyway? It was thriving a couple of
> years ago...look at the incredible drop-off in volume:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.movies.silent/about
>
> Fell off a cliff at the beginning of 2008, for whatever reason. And
> still falling.
Discussions here used to get over-heated and sometimes abusive. Many
regular posters moved over to Nitrateville:
Nitrateville is a moderated group, better able to handle the bad manners
that seem to characterize the old guard of the silent film community.
Things have been quieter but also more civil here ever since.
StormChaser
More civil but less fun.
The bluster that would stir up here
from time to time kept things lively.
I would like to think of
those who branched off
as forming their own mental
therapy groups, after all,
those who watch movies
made more that 80 years
ago where the actors
had to communicate intentions
non-verbally and is only brought
alive through proper music
must congregate with
like minds to re-enforce sanity.
Old Movie Fan
>What happened to this newsgroup, anyway? It
> was thriving a couple of years ago...look at
> the incredible drop-off in volume:
It's partly seasonal too, as most groups have little participation
other than Winter and early Spring. There's also a cycle where it
reaches a point where most have talked about all these films before (I
know I have).
As you can see, Lloyd and I both think highly of "City Girl," a rare
film to find until only a year ago when it was released as part of a
Murnau set. I've had my copy for years and like Lloyd, it's a favorite
of mine.
Many are still lurking, and willing to respond if they see an
important question raised.
But don't expect them to respond to movie lists (like we are doing
here).
Me? I'll always give advice if I think it might be appreciated.
Rich Wagner
Lloyd Fonvielle
> On Oct 25, 10:17 pm, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS...@cox.net> wrote:
>> Discussions here used to get over-heated and sometimes abusive. Many
>> regular posters moved over to Nitrateville:
>>
>> http://www.nitrateville.com/
>>
>> Nitrateville is a moderated group, better able to handle the bad manners
>> that seem to characterize the old guard of the silent film community.
>>
>> Things have been quieter but also more civil here ever since.
>> www.mardecortesbaja.com<http://www.mardecortesbaja.com/blog>
>
> More civil but less fun.
>
> The bluster that would stir up here
> from time to time kept things lively.
I agree. I got my share of gratuitous personal insults but never took
them personally, and always appreciated opinions that differed radically
from my own. There seemed to be an element, though, that wanted to
suppress any opinions which violated the common wisdom. It fostered a
kind of clubhouse mentality, which wasn't conducive to a real dialogue
about silent film.
Lloyd Fonvielle
> As you can see, Lloyd and I both think highly of "City Girl," a rare
> film to find until only a year ago when it was released as part of a
> Murnau set. I've had my copy for years and like Lloyd, it's a favorite
> of mine.
I rank it above "Sunrise" -- which I know isn't a common view, but I
really think it's that good.
Old Movie Fan
> (Lloyd Fonvielle)
>I rank it above "Sunrise" -- which I know isn't a
> common view, but I really think it's that good.
Agreed. At least there's no drunken piglet in it (that was Hollywood's
idea, not Murnau's).
Take away that and I see them as equals.
Rich Wagner
Lloyd Fonvielle
>> From: navigar...@cox.net
>> (Lloyd Fonvielle)
>
>> I rank it above "Sunrise" -- which I know isn't a
>> common view, but I really think it's that good.
>
> Agreed. At least there's no drunken piglet in it (that was Hollywood's
> idea, not Murnau's).
Are you sure about that? I've seen "funny pig" sequences in other films
by German directors -- including, most recently, "Warning Shadows".
Made me think it was a Teutonic thing.
> Take away that and I see them as equals.
Old Movie Fan
>Are you sure about that?
Thanks for calling me on this Lloyd, since I thought I knew what I was
talking about when I said the piglet wasn't Murnau's idea.
I checked all my reviews including Tim Dirks, definitive summary and
could find nothing to back up my claim. I was incorrect.
Drunken barnyard animals were a staple of so many otherwise serious
dramas; for example, Mary Pickford's "The Lovelight."
It still seemed an unusual scene for such a serious drama (with
enough comic relief already in the film). Can't think of anything else
Murnau did that was quite like that.
I guess I also need to remember that for some, this is their favorite
part in "Sunrise." Not me; it ruined the mood IMO.
I learned something tonight.
Rich Wagner
Lloyd Fonvielle
> It still seemed an unusual scene for such a serious drama (with
> enough comic relief already in the film). Can't think of anything else
> Murnau did that was quite like that.
That's why I thought the "wayward pig" gag must be a German cultural
thing -- nothing else could explain it.
> I guess I also need to remember that for some, this is their favorite
> part in "Sunrise." Not me; it ruined the mood IMO.
Same for me. It's not only dumb, it goes on and on and on. The pig
getting lose, terrorizing the city folk, and the farmer catching it
could have worked, sort of, but the pig falling down drunk repeatedly,
complete with close-ups, is just totally lame.
Eric Grayson
<prose1235-D6A9B...@news.eternal-september.org>, poisoned
rose <pros...@aol.com> wrote:
> Hm, OK. Don't know much about that one...I'll look it up.
>
> It's not quite a silent, but I saw "L'Atalante" for the first time last
> night and thought it was absolutely wonderful.
>
> What happened to this newsgroup, anyway? It was thriving a couple of
> years ago...look at the incredible drop-off in volume:
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.movies.silent/about
>
> Fell off a cliff at the beginning of 2008, for whatever reason. And
> still falling.
There were a number of people here who simply loved to argue and wanted
to have the last word over and over again even though the topic had
long since been exhausted.
It was maddening to sift through threads of "you're an idiot," "you
don't understand film," "he was a genius," "he was evil," etc.
The amount of real discussion vs. the amount of personal attacks became
so dilute that it became hard to find useful information here. There
were a few people who were at the root of the 200-post long snipes. I
am not going to name them here (since it will only inflame a war), but
I note that those people are mostly still here.
I would respectfully submit that the discussions are now more civil
here because those people who have insisted upon having the last word
have had it. Everyone else left. I'm not sure they realize that THEY
THEMSELVES are the reason for the decline. It was really going
downhill before Nitrateville hit, and Nitrateville was the final nail
in the coffin.
I'm not sure that Nitrateville is the answer. I commend its creation.
Most of the silent film experts who had departed this group have come
back there. It doesn't render well on my system, and I fear that its
group structure is so fragmented that it takes a little more effort to
find everything pertinent than most will put in it.
The worst problem with the sniping is that it often revolved around
ideas that cannot be proved or disproved. It's like arguing the
existence of God. We can't prove it or disprove it, some believe in
it, some don't, and that's really it. You can discuss details about
it, but it's not like proving that there is air. Air is tangible and I
can prove it exists.
I can't prove that Irving Thalberg was evil or a saint; I can't prove
that Leni Riefenstahl was or was not a Nazi sympathizer; I can't prove
that Erich Von Stroheim could have made brilliant pictures because most
of them were butchered by the studios. I wasn't there with a
stroboscope to measure the speed of silent films being projected in
1924, so I can't say what the proper speed is on some of these (if
there even was one).
It's sad that a few people who were dedicated to having their opinions
heard (and heard... and heard... and heard... and heard...) unwittingly
conspired to ruin what was once a really great place to come discuss
silent films and share information.
Eric
Lloyd Fonvielle
group. The problem was never the subjects discussed, or how often they
were discussed -- this is a public forum, after all, where people are
free to discuss whatever they want at whatever length they want. The
problem was the gratuitous ad hominem insults that people felt free to
direct towards those with whom they disagreed, or who were discussing
things that didn't interest them.
The group is more civil because those who enjoyed insulting others have
moved over to Nitrateville and accepted adult supervision, apparently
very happily.
You keep bringing up the name of Thalberg, for example, in almost every
post, even though the subject hasn't been broached here by anyone else
for a couple of years -- it just isn't on the radar of the group as
presently constituted -- but no one has attacked you personally for
this. That's the difference.
Eric Grayson wrote:
christoph...@und.nodak.edu
FAUST, possibly Murnau's masterpiece. It blends lyricism with realism
and a European approach to a more American style. It's really a must-
see.
--Christopher Jacobs
http://hpr1.com/film
http://www.und.edu/instruct/cjacobs
christoph...@und.nodak.edu
have hit the problem exactly on the head.
There's more to it than interminable disagreements and petty
arguments, however (not to mention severe thread drift, as this thread
has become). My own posts dropped off about five or six years ago when
my internet provider suddenly dropped its newsgroup server and I had
to start using Google Groups. This was much more time consuming,
involving, and downright annoying with all the passwords and harder-to-
read threads than the instantaneous reading and responding I could do
directly from Outlook Express's newsreader. NitrateVille also needs
registration and logging in, but it's much easier to do and posts can
more easily be previewed and later edited by the poster. Those who can
figure it out can also link to pictures, sometehing that can't be done
on a non-binary newsgroup.
It's actually been a year now since I even posted to
alt.movies.silent, although I do check back periodically to see what's
being discussed. Most of the former regular a.m.s. posters, both
simple movie buffs and people in the film industry, published
scholars, and professional preservationists have moved over to
NitrateVille. It was in January of 2008 that I joined NitrateVille,
where things are (usually but not always) as friendly and civil as
they used to be some five to ten years ago on alt.movies.silent. As
always, some people do get riled up in a hurry on certain topics, but
tend to settle down much more quickly than they used to. Very little
moderator censorship has been needed (until a couple threads this
month started getting on the verge of becoming out of hand like the
last half of 2007 became on alt.movies.silent). There is also
absolutely none of the pervasive spam that pervades almost every
usenet newsgroup these days. Another bonus is that threads are
conveniently divided into general topics and subtopics like silent
(news, screenings, discussion), talkies (news, screenings,
discussion), collection/preservation, musical accompaniment, for sale/
trade, site chat, useful info -- so it's easy to ignore sections one
has little interest in without having to wade through the awkward
Google Groups format.
And now, to rile things up a bit, I'll make the bold statement that
"DVD is Dead!!" (check back on a.m.s archives for threads about VHS
being killed off by DVDs several years before that happened. I'd like
to think that DVD production and releases will continue for another
decade or two, but for home "theatres" BluRay discs are pushing out
DVDs faster than DVDs killed VHS among those who look for picture
quality, and live internet streaming or downloads are supplanting DVDs
among those who don't give a @#$% about picture or audio quality but
prefer convenience and instant gratification. Okay... discuss amongst
yourselves... :-)
--Christopher Jacobs
http://hpr1.com/film
http://www.und.edu/instruct/cjacobs
Lloyd Fonvielle
> And now, to rile things up a bit, I'll make the bold statement that
> "DVD is Dead!!" (check back on a.m.s archives for threads about VHS
> being killed off by DVDs several years before that happened. I'd like
> to think that DVD production and releases will continue for another
> decade or two, but for home "theatres" BluRay discs are pushing out
> DVDs faster than DVDs killed VHS among those who look for picture
> quality, and live internet streaming or downloads are supplanting DVDs
> among those who don't give a @#$% about picture or audio quality but
> prefer convenience and instant gratification. Okay... discuss amongst
> yourselves... :-)
Just to be contrary . . . well, I can't. I agree with you totally.
O.k., not totally. A decade or two is probably way too optimistic for
the survival of the DVD. I'll be happy if it lasts another five years.
Speaking of picture quality, I recently had to watch a bunch of films on
VHS which aren't available on Laserdisc or DVD and I was shocked at how
bad they looked -- like watching movies today on YouTube, relatively
speaking.
Old Movie Fan
always bothered me in the past).
It's a simple matter to change the subject, even if you don't start a
new thread.
It not like a new subject would be missed with so few postings here.
Rich Wagner
Donald4564
We live in the throw away society today. I must say that I am quite
happy with my DVD's which my equipment upscales and projects at
1080dpi. I did not invest in a Blue-Ray machine as the discs are too
expensive compared to DVD's.
I still have my 78's and LP's and a gramophone to play them on too. I
suppose that in a few years I can open my house up as a museum to
recording?
Also, now that we have paid out money to get one of these new HD
Digital television sets - 3D Television is set to be launched....
When will it all end...
Regards
Donald BInks
Lloyd Fonvielle
> We live in the throw away society today. I must say that I am quite
> happy with my DVD's which my equipment upscales and projects at
> 1080dpi. I did not invest in a Blue-Ray machine as the discs are too
> expensive compared to DVD's.
>
> I still have my 78's and LP's and a gramophone to play them on too. I
> suppose that in a few years I can open my house up as a museum to
> recording?
>
> Also, now that we have paid out money to get one of these new HD
> Digital television sets - 3D Television is set to be launched....
>
> When will it all end...
There's already a backlash of sorts. Any number of my 30-something
friends are totally into LPs and *typewriters* . . . not to mention
digital effects which make digital photos look like Kodachrome prints.
Derek Gee
news:sF9Gm.40404$cL1....@newsfe20.iad...
> There's already a backlash of sorts. Any number of my 30-something
> friends are totally into LPs and *typewriters* . . .
Both of those had always remained in production, but in very limited
numbers. Vinyl LP's are making a fairly big comeback.
>not to mention digital effects which make digital photos look like
>Kodachrome prints.
Which of course you'll have to do soon since Kodachrome film has ceased
production, and processing ends in fall of 2010.
Derek
Lloyd Fonvielle
I know. It's very sad and all my friends who are in to photochemical
images are very depressed.
It's one of those cases where you really can say the end of an era is in
sight, because future generations will associate the "look" of the past
fifty years or so with the look of Kodachrome and similar film stocks,
the way we associate a part of the 19th Century with the Daguerreotype.
--
william
>
> It's one of those cases where you really can say the end of an era is in
> sight, because future generations will associate the "look" of the past
> fifty years or so with the look of Kodachrome and similar film stocks,
> the way we associate a part of the 19th Century with the Daguerreotype.
>
the Brownie that introduced the masses to photography. And there may
even be some who miss the clicking and clacking of the slide
projector. For all the sad songs about the demise of certain
technologies or processes, there as many upsides. "Art" is being
demystified and democratized and while that may be a different
conversation, it is an upside of the digital world.
William
www.williamahearn.com
Lloyd Fonvielle
> On Oct 31, 9:27 am, Lloyd Fonvielle <navigareNOS...@cox.net> wrote:
>> It's one of those cases where you really can say the end of an era is in
>> sight, because future generations will associate the "look" of the past
>> fifty years or so with the look of Kodachrome and similar film stocks,
>> the way we associate a part of the 19th Century with the Daguerreotype.
>>
> And the downside is what?
Losing a technology that made some very beautiful images possible.
> Eras end. The same lament could be said for
> the Brownie that introduced the masses to photography. And there may
> even be some who miss the clicking and clacking of the slide
> projector. For all the sad songs about the demise of certain
> technologies or processes, there as many upsides. "Art" is being
> demystified and democratized and while that may be a different
> conversation, it is an upside of the digital world.
Wasn't suggesting that there was no upside to the new technologies, or
that I'd trade them for the old ones -- just offering a little "ave
atque vale" to something I'll miss.
william
>
> Wasn't suggesting that there was no upside to the new technologies, or
> that I'd trade them for the old ones -- just offering a little "ave
> atque vale" to something I'll miss.
>
William
www.williamahearn.com