Was there a Naval Officer?
Thomas Kozlowski
1. Was there a Naval Officer? or did Mrs. Harford make up the story
on-the-spot with the intention of pissing off her husband?
2. Repeated viewings of the film lead me to believe that Nicole Kidman
looks really good naked. I will have to go through it a few more times
to be certain, and through certain passages repeated, but I think I'm
on solid ground with this one.
Matthew Dickinson
too toned
ichorwhip
Thomas Kozlowski wrote:
> For your consideration, two theories about EWS:
>
> 1. Was there a Naval Officer?
Prolly a rear admiral...
> or did Mrs. Harford make up the story
> on-the-spot with the intention of pissing off her husband?
Since it's left open for interpretation I'd say that Alice made it up.
I think it's more interesting that way. She wanted to play the "truth
game?" Yeah, right! More like the "let's-fuck-with-Bill's-mind-game"
Even Dr. Bill says that that's "always a bit dangerous with pot." She
gradually gets Bill all wound up but along the way he says that the
pot's making her aggressive. Making her bolder and less inhibited
perhaps... It starts turning into a real piss-fest with these two
animals. Alice is definitely fuming when it gets to this speech:
"Millions of years of evolution - right? Men have to put their sperm
into as many women as they can, but women stay at home with pretty pink
things and take care of the children?" Bill fails to parry this
effectively and starts to get angry himself with his condescending
reply: "A bit oversimplified but something like that." It's at this
time that I detect Alice going into lie-mode. Even the screenplay
directions say: "The look in her eyes changes, becoming cool and
impenetrable," it's an indication of a whopper being born in her
devious "little" mind if you ask me. Bill has seriously underestimated
her as well. She is well aware that he has a jealous-streak in him....
somewhere. It has lain dormant in a stagnant sea of smug complacency.
Time for a tidal wave on which rides the imaginary naval officer.
Alice's skill in weaving a tapestry of bullshit from this point on is,
shall we say?, admirable. Bill has pretty much asked for it, and he's
gullible enough to buy it. Alice is smarter than he is. If you've
been married for any amount of time the scenario may seem clear to you.
Like the cliche says, "all is fair in love and war." Lying is an
especially effective weapon.
>
> 2. Repeated viewings of the film lead me to believe that Nicole Kidman
> looks really good naked. I will have to go through it a few more times
> to be certain, and through certain passages repeated, but I think I'm
> on solid ground with this one.
She has a certain nude charm... I wonder what it would be like to
fingerpaint her... ;) I can't for the life of me imagine leaving her
like Cruise did in real life, but of course she wouldn't buy into his
pseudoreligious cult and what not.
"And yet at the same time - if you can understand it - you were dearer
to me than ever, and I stroked your forehead and kissed your hair, and
at that moment my love for you was both tender and sad."
i
"piop"
Warchild
Matthew Dickinson <stal...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Thomas Kozlowski wrote:
> > For your consideration, two theories about EWS:
> >
> > 1. Was there a Naval Officer? or did Mrs. Harford make up the story
> > on-the-spot with the intention of pissing off her husband?
Mrs. Harford mentioned a Naval Officer that the husband had been aware
of. She then says that she fantasied about having an affair with that
officer (not that she actually had an affair).
ichorwhip
Warchild wrote:
> In article <qLmdnSLqRer...@comcast.com>,
> Matthew Dickinson <stal...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > Thomas Kozlowski wrote:
> > > For your consideration, two theories about EWS:
> > >
> > > 1. Was there a Naval Officer? or did Mrs. Harford make up the story
> > > on-the-spot with the intention of pissing off her husband?
>
> Mrs. Harford mentioned a Naval Officer that the husband had been aware
> of. She then says that she fantasied about having an affair with that
> officer (not that she actually had an affair).
Here's what is said according to the online screenplay at The Kubrick
Site. As far as I remember, it's the same in the film. I'm not where
I can verify that at the moment:
ALICE:
Well, last summer at Cape Cod - I don't suppose you remember one night
in the dining room, there was a young Naval officer sitting near us.
He was with two other officers.
BILL
As a matter of fact, I don't. But what about him?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course Bill could be lying about remembering Cape Cod etcetera. I
guess it's even possible that there really was a group of naval
officers somewhere in their travels upon which Alice bases her fantasy,
but I still think the overall way in which Alice conveys all of this to
Bill is deceitful hogwash designed to shake him up. Nicole Kidman
really acts a sort of double-edged sword in that scene, class A stuff!
"It doesn't really matter. Nothing happened. Just a passing fancy."
i
"piop"
Matthew Dickinson
I thought she was telling the truth.
Wordsmith
Gross, dude.
W ; )
Boaz
> Thomas Kozlowski wrote:
> > For your consideration, two theories about EWS:
> >
> > 1. Was there a Naval Officer?
>
> Prolly a rear admiral...
Prolly always wanted to be one himself - ar-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch!
> > or did Mrs. Harford make up the story
> > on-the-spot with the intention of pissing off her husband?
Naw, I think someone said, "Fleet's in!" and that sent Mrs.
Harford high-tailing it to the docks.
> Since it's left open for interpretation I'd say that Alice made it up.
Both you guys are prolly right. Forget the sailor jokes.
> I think it's more interesting that way. She wanted to play the "truth
> game?" Yeah, right! More like the "let's-fuck-with-Bill's-mind-game"
> Even Dr. Bill says that that's "always a bit dangerous with pot."
Offering a "professional opinion," there, Dr. Bill? ;-) That's
right; according to the JAMA, pot smoking among upwardly mobile couples
causes symptoms of mind-fucking that foster games as "Truth or
Dare." Of course, the game gets more frustrating when the wife
saunters around in her skimpy underwear as she offers up her
"confession" first, and while she looks very tantalizing that way,
what she says to piss off the husband keeps him from sporting wood in
his pot-haze.
> She gradually gets Bill all wound up but along the way he says that the
> pot's making her aggressive. Making her bolder and less inhibited
> perhaps...
Verbally emasculating the good doctor, using her tongue as a scalpel.
> It starts turning into a real piss-fest with these two
> animals. Alice is definitely fuming when it gets to this speech:
> "Millions of years of evolution - right? Men have to put their sperm
> into as many women as they can, but women stay at home with pretty pink
> things and take care of the children?"
I guess that's what Dr. Bill gets for saying that it is
"understandable" that other men want to fuck his wife. Of course, I
doubt there is anything he could have said that wouldn't have touched
off this "piss-fest," as you call it. While Dr. Bill was getting
loaded she was loaded for bear.
> Bill fails to parry this
> effectively and starts to get angry himself with his condescending
> reply: "A bit oversimplified but something like that." It's at this
> time that I detect Alice going into lie-mode. Even the screenplay
> directions say: "The look in her eyes changes, becoming cool and
> impenetrable," it's an indication of a whopper being born in her
> devious "little" mind if you ask me. Bill has seriously underestimated
> her as well. She is well aware that he has a jealous-streak in him....
> somewhere. It has lain dormant in a stagnant sea of smug complacency.
> Time for a tidal wave on which rides the imaginary naval officer.
She knows him better than he knows her. She knows exactly which buttons
to push and to what extent to push them. Millions of years of
evolution, indeed; it isn't just what men do with their need to
"stick it in;" the women call the shots as to when the men can
stick it in.
> Alice's skill in weaving a tapestry of bullshit from this point on is,
> shall we say?, admirable.
Good one. So, you think she may be telling a "fish story"? ;-)
> Bill has pretty much asked for it, and he's
> gullible enough to buy it. Alice is smarter than he is.
Yes, I agree. Being a doctor he should have asked for a second opinion.
;-)
> If you've
> been married for any amount of time the scenario may seem clear to you.
> Like the cliche says, "all is fair in love and war." Lying is an
> especially effective weapon.
Well, you know the other old saying, Ich, "Love means never having to
say you're sorry. It also means having to put up with the other
person's bullshit." ;-)
> > 2. Repeated viewings of the film lead me to believe that Nicole Kidman
> > looks really good naked. I will have to go through it a few more times
> > to be certain, and through certain passages repeated, but I think I'm
> > on solid ground with this one.
>
> She has a certain nude charm... I wonder what it would be like to
> fingerpaint her... ;)
I would personally apply the paint with my tongue, but that's just
me. ;-)
> I can't for the life of me imagine leaving her
> like Cruise did in real life, but of course she wouldn't buy into his
> pseudoreligious cult and what not.
Yeah, religious differences can be a serious issue in a marriage. Maybe
one of the grand poobahs wanted Cruise to pass Kidman around like a
joint. Or Cruise prolly made the mistake of saying to some of the
church members that having sex with Kidman was a "religious
experience," and they wanted to find out for themselves - all at
once! It would have given a whole new meaning to the word "mass." I
know she'd find a disciple in me! ;-)
Boaz
("What did HE want? Oh...what did he want? SEX - upstairs, then and
there.")
ichorwhip
You're lying! :) I dunno Matthew, Alice certainly exhibits a lot of
suspicious behavior in her exposition. It wouldn't have come across as
clearly in the hands of a less-skilled actress I think. Having
personally heard just about every form of pre- and post-marital
bullshit imaginable, Alice gives me the impression that it's all a
highly embellished fairy tale. Why don't you elaborate on why you
think she was telling the truth? It's all hypothetical anyway.
"It was the pot."
i
"piop"
Matthew Dickinson
In the novel Fridolin's wife is obviously telling the truth. That story
is very serious. EWS still keeps that serious old-fashioned tone. It was
pretty much unbearable for audiences. idon't know, I just believed her.
I guess I'm just a Bill .
Aphelion
>> looks really good naked. I will have to go through it a few more times
>> to be certain
You have to watch repeat viewings of EWS to determine if Nicole Kidman looks
good naked? Whatever you're on, I'll pass.
Aphelion
donsto...@hotmail.com
ichorwhip
donsto...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Scientific rigor demands extreme verification.
Just as much as sarcasm requires a sense of humor, or so it would
seem...
"...I am part of an international student's contest to see who can get
the most points for selling magazines."
i
"piop"
ichorwhip
Boaz wrote:
> ichorwhip wrote:
> > Thomas Kozlowski wrote:
> > > For your consideration, two theories about EWS:
> > >
> > > 1. Was there a Naval Officer?
> >
> > Prolly a rear admiral...
>
> Prolly always wanted to be one himself - ar-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-ch!
Oyl right now... I guess that's what I get for recycling old jokes!
;-)
>
> > > or did Mrs. Harford make up the story
> > > on-the-spot with the intention of pissing off her husband?
>
> Naw, I think someone said, "Fleet's in!" and that sent Mrs.
> Harford high-tailing it to the docks.
>
> > Since it's left open for interpretation I'd say that Alice made it up.
>
> Both you guys are prolly right. Forget the sailor jokes.
>
> > I think it's more interesting that way. She wanted to play the "truth
> > game?" Yeah, right! More like the "let's-fuck-with-Bill's-mind-game"
> > Even Dr. Bill says that that's "always a bit dangerous with pot."
>
> Offering a "professional opinion," there, Dr. Bill? ;-) That's
> right; according to the JAMA, pot smoking among upwardly mobile couples
> causes symptoms of mind-fucking that foster games such as "Truth or
> Dare." Of course, the game gets more frustrating when the wife
> saunters around in her skimpy underwear as she offers up her
> "confession" first, and while she looks very tantalizing that way,
> what she says to piss off the husband keeps him from sporting wood in
> his pot-haze.
A phone call interrupts any hope of hot make-up sex, which may have
been on the horizon. Dang people dying at inopportune times.... Even
if Bill was having thoughts of chubbing out to about a 3 wood, they
were quickly vanquished by that cold ringer. Bill tells Alice, "I have
to show my face" not only foreshadowing the ogry debacle, but
contrasting with Alice who has just shown her ass.
>
> > She gradually gets Bill all wound up but along the way he says that the
> > pot's making her aggressive. Making her bolder and less inhibited
> > perhaps...
>
> Verbally emasculating the good doctor, using her tongue as a scalpel.
>
Her tongue is very shiny.
> > It starts turning into a real piss-fest with these two
> > animals. Alice is definitely fuming when it gets to this speech:
> > "Millions of years of evolution - right? Men have to put their sperm
> > into as many women as they can, but women stay at home with pretty pink
> > things and take care of the children?"
>
> I guess that's what Dr. Bill gets for saying that it is
> "understandable" that other men want to fuck his wife. Of course, I
> doubt there is anything he could have said that wouldn't have touched
> off this "piss-fest," as you call it. While Dr. Bill was getting
> loaded she was loaded for bear.
That's right. I think bored and ignored, taken-for-granted little
Alice deliberately tried to light a fire under Bill's balls.
>
> > Bill fails to parry this
> > effectively and starts to get angry himself with his condescending
> > reply: "A bit oversimplified but something like that." It's at this
> > time that I detect Alice going into lie-mode. Even the screenplay
> > directions say: "The look in her eyes changes, becoming cool and
> > impenetrable," it's an indication of a whopper being born in her
> > devious "little" mind if you ask me. Bill has seriously underestimated
> > her as well. She is well aware that he has a jealous-streak in him....
> > somewhere. It has lain dormant in a stagnant sea of smug complacency.
> > Time for a tidal wave on which rides the imaginary naval officer.
>
> She knows him better than he knows her. She knows exactly which buttons
> to push and to what extent to push them. Millions of years of
> evolution, indeed; it isn't just what men do with their need to
> "stick it in;" the women call the shots as to when the men can
> stick it in.
Exactly right, the only alternative to the woman not being in control
is rape, and that is STRAIGHT out for a normal man.
>
> > Alice's skill in weaving a tapestry of bullshit from this point on is,
> > shall we say?, admirable.
>
> Good one. So, you think she may be telling a "fish story"? ;-)
I really read it that way, and, as I've been dancing around it, I think
it's the way Kidman acted it. She just has such a devious look in her
eyes.
>
> > Bill has pretty much asked for it, and he's
> > gullible enough to buy it. Alice is smarter than he is.
>
> Yes, I agree. Being a doctor he should have asked for a second opinion.
> ;-)
>
> > If you've
> > been married for any amount of time the scenario may seem clear to you.
> > Like the cliche says, "all is fair in love and war." Lying is an
> > especially effective weapon.
>
> Well, you know the other old saying, Ich, "Love means never having to
> say you're sorry. It also means having to put up with the other
> person's bullshit." ;-)
Deja vu is on tap here, and it's got a good head. :)
>
> > > 2. Repeated viewings of the film lead me to believe that Nicole Kidman
> > > looks really good naked. I will have to go through it a few more times
> > > to be certain, and through certain passages repeated, but I think I'm
> > > on solid ground with this one.
> >
> > She has a certain nude charm... I wonder what it would be like to
> > fingerpaint her... ;)
>
> I would personally apply the paint with my tongue, but that's just
> me. ;-)
Sounds so Cezanne or something....
>
> > I can't for the life of me imagine leaving her
> > like Cruise did in real life, but of course she wouldn't buy into his
> > pseudoreligious cult and what not.
>
> Yeah, religious differences can be a serious issue in a marriage. Maybe
> one of the grand poobahs wanted Cruise to pass Kidman around like a
> joint. Or Cruise prolly made the mistake of saying to some of the
> church members that having sex with Kidman was a "religious
> experience," and they wanted to find out for themselves - all at
> once! It would have given a whole new meaning to the word "mass." I
> know she'd find a disciple in me! ;-)
>
> Boaz
> ("What did HE want? Oh...what did he want? SEX - upstairs, then and
> there.")
Alice's dream come true?
"When she is having her little TITTIES squeezed, do you think she ever
has any fantasies about what handsome Dr. Bill's DICKIE might be like?"
i
"piop"
ichorwhip
ichorwhip wrote:
> Thomas Kozlowski wrote:
> > For your consideration, two theories about EWS:
> >
> > 1. Was there a Naval Officer?
>
> Prolly a rear admiral...
>
> > or did Mrs. Harford make up the story
> > on-the-spot with the intention of pissing off her husband?
>
> Since it's left open for interpretation I'd say that Alice made it up.
> I think it's more interesting that way. She wanted to play the "truth
> game?" Yeah, right! More like the "let's-fuck-with-Bill's-mind-game"
> Even Dr. Bill says that that's "always a bit dangerous with pot." She
> gradually gets Bill all wound up but along the way he says that the
> pot's making her aggressive. Making her bolder and less inhibited
> perhaps... It starts turning into a real piss-fest with these two
> animals. Alice is definitely fuming when it gets to this speech:
> "Millions of years of evolution - right? Men have to put their sperm
> into as many women as they can, but women stay at home with pretty pink
> things and take care of the children?" Bill fails to parry this
> effectively and starts to get angry himself with his condescending
> reply: "A bit oversimplified but something like that."
A correction to make: Alice actually says the following before the
former line from Bill:
"Millions of years of evolution, right? Right? Men have to stick it in
every place they can, but for women... women it is just about security
and commitment and whatever the fuck else!" I was looking at an older
version of the script I realized. I think the line that eventually got
used was a lot brasher for sure.
donsto...@hotmail.com
seem...
****************
The two do go hand in hand.
Matthew Dickinson
Also:
1. Kubrick wasn't known for misleading the audience in his stories.
Normally events plod along in a step-by-step
what-you-see-is-what-you-get-fashion. Visually, objects in the
foreground are the most important, while objects in the background are
less important, unless a zoom is about to occur.
2. And that's important because the music, Joceyln Pook's music, in
confession scene with Alice, is unnerving and quesy stuff, because Bill
(the hero, the protagonist, the guy you're following) is learning the
truth, and it's shaking him up. There's no clues really, that I see,
that Alice is LYING, that is setting some kind of trap, or playing some
kinda game, or whatever, to get Bill to react. I think she wanted to say
that she's come close to leaving him, even for a stranger. The important
point is that it was a stranger. Naval officer sounds pretty out of
place these days, that term, but it's not like Frederic Raphael and
Stanley Kubrick were AWESOME writers. I read that script of their's and
a lot of the dialogue is just spacey crap that doesn't exist in any
country, not England, not NY, not anywhere. I mean Eyes Wide Shut is
like a fairy tale. I love it because it's so strange this way. He almost
made it in Vienna of a 100 years ago, which makes a little more sense,
but changed his mind right before pre-production kicked off. Like, "oh
yeah, I think I'll change time zones and countries, yeah I think I've
decided on that. Yeah tell Warner Bros I want to make the sets in
present-day NYC. That might be good." Anyway, so it was a naval officer.
Probably been better if it had been a computer technician working for
the Geek Squad at Best Buy or maybe at least a "life guard" or an
aircraft engineer back from Atsugi from 3 years of Naval service, er uh,
but "naval office" sounds more like Vienna of 1900, language-wise, I
thought, than modern day NY. I don't know. What do people in NY talk
like? I live in Georgia.
3. So anyway, what was this about? Oh yeah, Alice the liar. I don't
think so. Damn, reasons. Gotta have reasons. I can't think of any. But
isn't it obvious? What reasons YOU GOT that she's lying? What signs?
eating cookies in the middle of the night? I think she's hurt and
lonely, and isn't thinking about her kid and family much, because Bill
doesn't know how to entertain her (that ziegler party wasn't her thing),
and Bill is so clueless that his wife almost left him MONTHS ago, much
less is thinking about doing is now. Everybody's just drifting. like
naval officers at sea. Like this post. Just drifting aimlessly. Going
nowhere. Hold on I need to check my email.
ichorwhip
But Kubrick was well known for taking source material and bending and
twisting it to suit his needs. GC made an excellent point on that
right out of the starting gate in "The Wolf at the Door." He pointed
out how he changed Bill's encounter with the college-thugs from one of
antisemitism to one of homophobia. Now why would he change something
like that from the novel? Indeed, why would he even include it all
altered or otherwise?
>
> 2. And that's important because the music, Joceyln Pook's music, in
> confession scene with Alice, is unnerving and queasy stuff, because Bill
> (the hero, the protagonist, the guy you're following) is learning the
> truth, and it's shaking him up. There's no clues really, that I see,
> that Alice is LYING,
> that is setting some kind of trap, or playing some
> kinda game, or whatever, to get Bill to react. I think she wanted to say
> that she's come close to leaving him, even for a stranger.
I just don't see it this way at all, but you're entitled to an opinion
however wrong it is. ;-)
> The important
> point is that it was a stranger. Naval officer sounds pretty out of
> place these days, that term, but it's not like Frederic Raphael and
> Stanley Kubrick were AWESOME writers. I read that script of their's and
> a lot of the dialogue is just spacey crap that doesn't exist in any
> country, not England, not NY, not anywhere. I mean Eyes Wide Shut is
> like a fairy tale. I love it because it's so strange this way. He almost
> made it in Vienna of a 100 years ago,
> which makes a little more sense,
> but changed his mind right before pre-production kicked off. Like, "oh
> yeah, I think I'll change time zones and countries, yeah I think I've
> decided on that. Yeah tell Warner Bros I want to make the sets in
> present-day NYC. That might be good." Anyway, so it was a naval officer.
> Probably been better if it had been a computer technician working for
> the Geek Squad at Best Buy or maybe at least a "life guard" or an
> aircraft engineer back from Atsugi from 3 years of Naval service, er uh,
> but "naval office" sounds more like Vienna of 1900, language-wise,
Oh right, because Vienna was such a seafaring town....<boing!> I think
you're completely off track with this. Didn't you see "An Officer and
a Gentleman?"
> I thought, than modern day NY. I don't know. What do people in NY talk
> like? I live in Georgia.
There is the generic New York "Bronx" accent, but I'd say that NYNY has
prolly got the widest variety of accents and colloquialisms of any city
on the planet.
>
> 3. So anyway, what was this about? Oh yeah, Alice the liar. I don't
> think so. Damn, reasons. Gotta have reasons. I can't think of any. But
> isn't it obvious?
No!
>What reasons YOU GOT that she's lying? What signs?
"I've told you once..."
> eating cookies in the middle of the night? I think she's hurt and
> lonely, and isn't thinking about her kid and family much, because Bill
> doesn't know how to entertain her (that ziegler party wasn't her thing),
> and Bill is so clueless that his wife almost left him MONTHS ago, much
> less is thinking about doing is now. Everybody's just drifting. like
> naval officers at sea. Like this post. Just drifting aimlessly. Going
> nowhere. Hold on I need to check my email.
Ok, and there we have it, thank you.
"Don't you think one of the charms of marriage is that it makes
deception a necessity for both parties?"
i
"piop"
Matthew Dickinson
Because casual Jew-bashing like that is in the past, but gay bashing is
more on target. I guess. I guess it's on target. Not really. But they
don't really gay bash him, it wasn't homophobia. they were just roughing
him up and calling him names.
There are parts of that movie that feel the age of the source novel,
unupdated, and then there's the rest that doesn't. That scene with the
dead patient, on its own, feels kind of out of time entirely.
>
>> I thought, than modern day NY. I don't know. What do people in NY talk
>> like? I live in Georgia.
>
> There is the generic New York "Bronx" accent, but I'd say that NYNY has
> prolly got the widest variety of accents and colloquialisms of any city
> on the planet.
>
>> 3. So anyway, what was this about? Oh yeah, Alice the liar. I don't
>> think so. Damn, reasons. Gotta have reasons. I can't think of any. But
>> isn't it obvious?
>
> No!
bitch
>
>> What reasons YOU GOT that she's lying? What signs?
>
> "I've told you once..."
but I wasn't listening.
Thomas Kozlowski
I didn't mean to suggest that Alice was 'lying' by any means. 'Making
it up' is not 'lying', if one adheres to the logical rules of marriage
or the testimony of former presidents.
What's at work, i suspect, is Kubrick's larger statement about class
and social-climbing. Alice is a trophy wife, and in the naval officer
bit she is giving vent to her fustrations in. Note, at Zeigler's
party, how she presents herself: she gets hammered, and talks about
having once managed an art gallery (managed it into the ground, as it
went broke, aye). She then claims she is looking for a job. From the
day-in-the-life sequence crosscutting, we watch her putting on her
underwear langorously etc., spending her husband's money, (how does she
know Bill's magic wallet is 'by the 'phone' if she wasn't burning down
the old capital one card with an ikea catalogue in her lap?), and not
looking for a job.
Taking her to Ziegler's party is to show his hot chick off to Zeigler
and his richass friends. Network, get more clients. To say: i am one
of you. And want to belong to your latenight orgy hootenannies. That
Alice once had a career is an item on his resume. It makes her more
valuable as an object of conspicuous consumption.
Now, there is a parallel between this idea and the naval officer bit.
That Alice had some moment of completely consuming lust, lust she would
have given up everything for, is something that makes her more valuable
to Bill, as a wife. She is not all about security and commitment, and
what the fuck else. But she never acted on it, as Bill, and the life
as doctor's wife was preferable. I'm thinking she doesn't tell him
this to piss him off, but rather to turn him on. In a very bent way,
naturally.
Her genuine lust at the time of seeing the naval officer was probably
as real as the job she is looking for. That is to say, not very. But
time and repeating the fantasy has made it grow.
Christ what a good fucking movie.
thomas.
Matthew Dickinson
> good discussion, chaps.
>
> I didn't mean to suggest that Alice was 'lying' by any means. 'Making
> it up' is not 'lying', if one adheres to the logical rules of marriage
> or the testimony of former presidents.
>
> What's at work, i suspect, is Kubrick's larger statement about class
> and social-climbing. Alice is a trophy wife, and in the naval officer
> bit she is giving vent to her fustrations in. Note, at Zeigler's
> party, how she presents herself: she gets hammered, and talks about
> having once managed an art gallery (managed it into the ground, as it
> went broke, aye). She then claims she is looking for a job. From the
> day-in-the-life sequence crosscutting, we watch her putting on her
> underwear langorously etc., spending her husband's money, (how does she
> know Bill's magic wallet is 'by the 'phone' if she wasn't burning down
> the old capital one card with an ikea catalogue in her lap?), and not
> looking for a job.
That's oversimplifying to say that Alice is just a trophy wife. Bill
loves her, but he's forgotten how much, and their marriage is beginning
to drift, and he doesn't pay enough attention to her.
>
> Taking her to Ziegler's party is to show his hot chick off to Zeigler
> and his richass friends. Network, get more clients. To say: i am one
> of you. And want to belong to your latenight orgy hootenannies. That
> Alice once had a career is an item on his resume. It makes her more
> valuable as an object of conspicuous consumption.
>
> Now, there is a parallel between this idea and the naval officer bit.
> That Alice had some moment of completely consuming lust, lust she would
> have given up everything for, is something that makes her more valuable
> to Bill, as a wife. She is not all about security and commitment, and
> what the fuck else. But she never acted on it, as Bill, and the life
> as doctor's wife was preferable. I'm thinking she doesn't tell him
> this to piss him off, but rather to turn him on. In a very bent way,
> naturally.
She certainly tells him this story to see if he is jealous. If he's
jealous and hates what he hears, then she knows he loves him, but she
also knows he has to react and explore this. Bill realizes he doesn't
want to go around fucking whores, and so at the end he can return to his
wife with more love than he had before.
But since she wants his eyes opened, and she wants him closer to her,
it's reasonable that months ago she really did almost leave him for a
stranger.
>
>
> Christ what a good fucking movie.
Yep.
>
> thomas.
>
Wordsmith
Matthew Dickinson wrote:
> Thomas Kozlowski wrote:
> > good discussion, chaps.
> >
> > I didn't mean to suggest that Alice was 'lying' by any means. 'Making
> > it up' is not 'lying', if one adheres to the logical rules of marriage
> > or the testimony of former presidents.
> >
> > What's at work, i suspect, is Kubrick's larger statement about class
> > and social-climbing. Alice is a trophy wife, and in the naval officer
> > bit she is giving vent to her fustrations in. Note, at Zeigler's
> > party, how she presents herself: she gets hammered, and talks about
> > having once managed an art gallery (managed it into the ground, as it
> > went broke, aye). She then claims she is looking for a job. From the
> > day-in-the-life sequence crosscutting, we watch her putting on her
> > underwear langorously etc., spending her husband's money, (how does she
> > know Bill's magic wallet is 'by the 'phone' if she wasn't burning down
> > the old capital one card with an ikea catalogue in her lap?), and not
> > looking for a job.
>
> That's oversimplifying to say that Alice is just a trophy wife. Bill
> loves her, but he's forgotten how much, and their marriage is beginning
> to drift, and he doesn't pay enough attention to her.
Well, N-u-a-l-a and her pal were fairly, um, distracting. I mean,
*I'd* sure be distracted!
> >
> > Taking her to Ziegler's party is to show his hot chick off to Zeigler
> > and his richass friends. Network, get more clients. To say: i am one
> > of you. And want to belong to your latenight orgy hootenannies. That
> > Alice once had a career is an item on his resume. It makes her more
> > valuable as an object of conspicuous consumption.
> >
> > Now, there is a parallel between this idea and the naval officer bit.
> > That Alice had some moment of completely consuming lust, lust she would
> > have given up everything for, is something that makes her more valuable
> > to Bill, as a wife. She is not all about security and commitment, and
> > what the fuck else. But she never acted on it, as Bill, and the life
> > as doctor's wife was preferable. I'm thinking she doesn't tell him
> > this to piss him off, but rather to turn him on. In a very bent way,
> > naturally.
>
> She certainly tells him this story to see if he is jealous. If he's
> jealous and hates what he hears, then she knows he loves him, but she
> also knows he has to react and explore this. Bill realizes he doesn't
> want to go around fucking whores, and so at the end he can return to his
> wife with more love than he had before.
Her provocation affected him more than even she would have liked to
think.
> But since she wants his eyes opened, and she wants him closer to her,
> it's reasonable that months ago she really did almost leave him for a
> stranger.
Makes me wonder if eyes can be opened *too* wide.
W : )
Bill Reid
ichorwhip <icho...@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:1141352264.1...@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> But Kubrick was well known for taking source material and bending and
> twisting it to suit his needs. GC made an excellent point on that
> right out of the starting gate in "The Wolf at the Door." He pointed
> out how he changed Bill's encounter with the college-thugs from one of
> antisemitism to one of homophobia. Now why would he change something
> like that from the novel? Indeed, why would he even include it all
> altered or otherwise?
>
Shut" to be an anthropological study of the breeding habits of the
"Central Park West-Dwelling Monkey" species.
Non-alpha male mammals, who can be easily cowed by physical
threats from the alpha males, have no breeding rights with the females,
and quite often are forced into homosexual behavior. Kubrick
demonstrated this perfectly: the threat behavior from the other
males attempting to achieve dominance, followed by the mocking
behavior indicating they felt they had forced him into homosexuality.
Because Kubrick had no intention of carrying over any largely
irrelevant and potentially confusing Holocaust themes from the
source material, he rejected it, as part of his "didactic approach"
methodology.
He did have Bill fall against a blue car, however, because his
favorite blankie when he was a child was blue...
As to whether there was a "Naval Officer", of course there was.
There IS such a thing as the "Navy", they have "officers", and chicks
dig guys in uniforms. Bill could have prevented the whole unfortunate
chain of events had he not flown off the handle, but instead rented a
fireman's costume, and performed a little mouth to lips resuscitation on
his flagging marriage...
---
William Ernest Reid
Matthew Dickinson
Matthew Dickinson
JW Moore
> right; according to the JAMA, pot smoking among upwardly mobile couples
> causes symptoms of mind-fucking that foster games as "Truth or
> Dare." Of course, the game gets more frustrating when the wife
> saunters around in her skimpy underwear as she offers up her
The part I still can't get over is that they would hide their weed in a
Band-Aid box in the medicine cabinet, where a child could (and
inevitably would) happen upon it. Bill and Alice are not only
questionable spouses, they are incredibly irresponsible parents. Then
again, the kid is little more than a plot device anyhow...
~~Jack
Sam Rouse
"JW Moore" <ja...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Speaking of plot devices - when has pot ever made anyone aggressive?
Matthew Dickinson
That's a good point. That kid is barely even noticed by them in the
movie. At the end, the girl interrupts her parent's conversation, and
the mother only says "Hi," trailing off, and that's I think the only
line seen spoken to her by Alice or Bill.
Boaz
Dr. Bill could always say it was "medical marijuana," and he took home
some samples from the clinic. ("Let me have some, nurse. I am a doctor;
see my AMA card?") ;-)
Boaz
JW Moore
can make people paranoid (Bill) or prone to uncontrolled laughing fits
(Alice). One wonders just how stoned Bill is, and how long he stays
that way. He seems lucid enough a short time later when he visits
Marian and rebuffs her advances -- just about the last sound decision
he is to make. Alice, on the other hand, is manifestly shitfaced --
note evidence of the Munchies when she calls Bill at Domino's place --
so who the hell knows if this Naval gentleman is real or imagined. From
Bill's POV it doesn't really matter either way.
~~Jack
Yelps
"JW Moore" <ja...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142658680....@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
There was a Naval Officer, she saw him like she said and became severely,
genitally engorged, then started imagining----implies she probably
masturbated later thinking about him, she had a underlying guilt about the
episiode and pot acting like a truth serum, combined with her jealousy of
seeing Bill with those models and she regurgited the story to try to make
Bill Jealous. Simple as that. The imagery we see on the screen is in Bill's
imagination. She is just being a jealous bitch. When she says "If men only
knew." she is really saying "if men only knew my sexual fantasies."
Then......?
Then she would be exposed as the slut she really is underneath it all and
she assumes Bill must be as bad, so she is out to punish him for being like
her projection of him, which is really herself she wants to punish. So
men would know.............just how crazed she (womankind) really is, and
they would come and save them by allowing them to live off men and have
their cake too.
(Hypothetically speaking)
dc
Wordsmith
Perception is reality.
W : )
gh
> JW Moore wrote:
> > so who the hell knows if this Naval gentleman is real or imagined.
If Alice really wanted to spite Bill, she would have said it was a
dentist.
G
Matthew Dickinson
haha
Wordsmith
...or a gynecologist.
W ; )
ichorwhip
Ew! gynecologists more often than not see the worst of women. One
word: discharge. I'd rather see the ladies well myself. Wardrobe
chief for swimsuit models is more like it...
"Mmmmmmm... any venereal disease?"
i
"piop"
Bill Reid
Wordsmith <word...@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:1142797055....@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> gh wrote:
> > > JW Moore wrote:
> >
> > > > so who the hell knows if this Naval gentleman is real or imagined.
> >
> > If Alice really wanted to spite Bill, she would have said it was a
> > dentist.
> >
>
"Sorry Frank, I think you missed it."
You're going the wrong way, so as usual it's up to me to perfect
the joke. If she really wanted to make him nutz, she would have
said it was a CHIROPRACTOR.
<rim shot>I'll be here all week, enjoy the veal...
---
William Ernest Reid
JW Moore
~~Jack