Dying from lava burn wounds?
Radium
Let's say a volcanologist exploring a smooth, liquid, yellow-hot
pahoehoe volcano suffers a horrifying accident. He/she falls into the
lava pool.
How long will the excruciating pain last? How long will it take to
become unconscious? How long to pass away?
Thanks,
Radium
Mysterion
"Radium" <gluc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180320363.6...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
I expect the answer to all three is:
"Not nearly as long as it seems."
The Ghost In The Machine
<gluc...@gmail.com>
wrote
on 27 May 2007 19:46:03 -0700
<1180320363.6...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
Any particular reason you're asking that question? :-) I'll admit I've
not seen the movie Joe vs. The Volcano; hopefully that's it. (It can't
be any sillier than The Core from a thermodynamics standpoint.)
I doubt one would survive long enough to tap out a missive on one's
laptop, were one to fall into relatively motile lava such as one might
see in Hawaiian volcanoes, which erupt early and often. :-) In
other areas, the fumes might overcome the unfortunate adventurer first.
At least, such would be my guess. I'm no volcano expert.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Radium
>
--
#191, ewi...@earthlink.net
"640K ought to be enough for anybody."
- allegedly said by Bill Gates, 1981, but somebody had to make this up!
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Timberwoof
Radium <gluc...@gmail.com> wrote:
You could do some research on the subject. Consider the movies LOTR:
ROTK, Star Wars III, and the Chronicles of Riddick. I think Crack in the
Earth may be useful, but I don't recall any scenes of anyone actually
being dunked into actual lava in that goofy Indiana Jones movie with the
Chilled Monkey Brains. TII had a problem becuase Arnold is apparently
denser than most people, as is Gollum.
I suppose you could also ask someone at OSHA. They don't like steel
mills.
--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
rms
Cause of death was the fumes tho.
rms
Jo Schaper
Helens: albeit a couple of miles away:
"Vancouver, this is it."
I suspect you'd realize you'd slipped, and that would be it.
Radium
> PBS had a story on volcano researchers dying on Vesuvius I believe it was.
> Cause of death was the fumes tho.
What if there is no -- or a negligible amount of -- fumes and the
cause of death is purely the result of thermal burns caused by the
superhot yellow liquid? How long to die? My guess is around 10 seconds
-- with each conscious second feeling like a million minutes. Five
seconds to lose consciousness as the brain temperature spikes.
MelodiousThunk
>From VolcanoWorld:
-------
If you put your hand in activly flowing lava, will your hand just
burn, burn off completely, or will you die from severe burning?
Jennifer
Dear Jennifer,
I'm not exactly sure why anyone would WANT to put his or her hand into
lava, are you? If it happened by accident you would get badly burned
but your hand wouldn't just melt off. A geologist at the Hawaiian
Volcano Observatory fell into some lava up to his knees about 11 years
ago. He was wearing boots and long pants, and luckily there was
someone to pull him out immediately. He had mostly second-degree burns
- which were very painful of course and he spent the whole summer in
the hospital - but he was back at work in 5 months. It is a very scary
thing to think about, even after all these years.
-- Scott Rowland, University of Hawaii
Radium
> If you put your hand in activly flowing lava, will your hand just
> burn, burn off completely, or will you die from severe burning?
>
> Jennifer
The serious injury might kill by causing shock.
> Dear Jennifer,
>
> I'm not exactly sure why anyone would WANT to put his or her hand into
> lava, are you? If it happened by accident you would get badly burned
> but your hand wouldn't just melt off. A geologist at the Hawaiian
> Volcano Observatory fell into some lava up to his knees about 11 years
> ago. He was wearing boots and long pants, and luckily there was
> someone to pull him out immediately. He had mostly second-degree burns
> - which were very painful of course and he spent the whole summer in
> the hospital - but he was back at work in 5 months. It is a very scary
> thing to think about, even after all these years.
> -- Scott Rowland, University of Hawaii
He had only 2nd-degree burns?
>From liquid thats red-hot, I'd expect instant fourth-degree burns [all
the way to the bone].
J. F. Cornwall
(quote from Honolulu paper at
http://starbulletin.com/2002/12/29/news/story2.html, about halfway down
the article):
On June 12, 1985, geologist George Ulrich had just taken a temperature
reading of fresh lava, 2,079 degrees. Suddenly a lava crust broke, and
Ulrich stepped into the lava over his boots but was protected by NOMEX
burn-resistant clothing.
Another geologist pulled him out in about five seconds. Ulrich was flown
to Straub Clinic & Hospital on Oahu for treatment of first-, second- and
third-degree burns. He recovered fully.
MelodiousThunk
At first glance, you might expect firewalkers to get at least 3rd-
degree burns regularly, too.
Ever poured molten aluminum? Folks who've done it for some time
develop enough confidence that they can divert the stream with an
ungloved fingertip. I have seen this done (in middle-school shop
class!) but not tried it myself.
John den Haan
Why the morbid interest really? What are you planning?
Radium
> Why the morbid interest really? What are you planning?
Nothing. Just interested for the science of it.
I've heard of those living near volcanoes dying of neurogenic shock --
due to total body burns -- when attacked by a pyroclastic flow.
I wonder if the same thing would happen to an individual who falls
into yellow-hot liquid lava if it's a soft pahoehoe lava that is not
emitting toxic fumes.
I have an interest in serious pain-free DRY THERMAL burn injuries in
which the burns are not accompanied by non-thermal injuries [such as
explosive pressure injuries or smoke inhalation]. Also, I am
especially interested in such injuries if the individual who is burnt
does not experience much suffering. I always hear about burn injuries
being so painful -- unless the victim has diabetes and can't feel due
to neuropathy or is numb to pain because of PCP or other cause. I
would like to hear about an otherwise-healthy [non-drugged, non-
diseased] individual not experiencing pain when burnt by dry heat --
such as a flame or volcano. In no part should there be any significant
pain related to the burn itself, not during the burning, not after the
injury has occurred, not during the healing process, not after the
burn has healed.
Any such cases of painless or mildly-painful burns caused by dry
extreme heat in which the victim is otherwise-healthy?
If an oxyacetylene torch has its flame aimed at my forehead, how long
will it take for the flame to burn into my brain and knock me
unconscious/dead?
AFAIK, an oxyacetylene flame is hot-enough to vaporize steel so it
must be hot enough to do the same to the skull within a similar time
frame.
Lawrence Glickman
>If an oxyacetylene torch has its flame aimed at my forehead, how long
>will it take for the flame to burn into my brain and knock me
>unconscious/dead?
Well, we can see that it already has.
What does your watch say
EskW...@spamblock.panix.com
> Why the morbid interest really? What are you planning?
<PSSSST> ... He's a troll ...
--
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so
certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russel
the_blogologist
where someone accidently put just a hand or food into red hot lava that
death was almost immediate from shock.
Radium
> I think it was a documentary on it I saw years ago that said in cases
> where someone accidently put just a hand or food into red hot lava that
> death was almost immediate from shock.
So a fatality can occur simply from burning the hand? What causes the
shock?
Stuart
> Hi:
>
> Let's say a volcanologist exploring a smooth, liquid, yellow-hot
> pahoehoe volcano suffers a horrifying accident. He/she falls into the
> lava pool.
>
> How long will the excruciating pain last?
Long enough to scream "My Precious!"
Stuart
John Kepler
> AFAIK, an oxyacetylene flame is hot-enough to vaporize steel so it
> must be hot enough to do the same to the skull within a similar time
> frame.
You aren't an engineer, or much of a "handi-man"....are you!
An electric plasma cutter "vaporizes" steel, cutting with pure unadulterated
heat energy. An oxyacetylene torch cuts with chemistry!
The fuel-oxygen flame heats the metal to around a "bright-yellow", but well
below it's melting-point. Then a stream of pure heated oxygen is introduced
into the center of the pre-heating flame, the oxygen reacts chemically with
the iron, and it burns away!
John
>
John Kepler
> become unconscious? How long to pass away?
Having seen fatal "hot metal" accidents in steel mills.....entirely too long
if you're the victim.....brutally fast if you're trying to be a rescuer!
Little understood factoid..... molten siliceous rock is an acid like
something out of the "Alien" movie, it also has just as much mass molten as
it does cool....consider the kinetics of a several hundred ton lump of
granite moving at 50 kph before you focus exclusively on the temperature.
John
George
"Stuart" <bigd...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1180502319.2...@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Hahaha. Good one, Stu.
George
the_blogologist
> On May 29, 4:08 pm, nob...@nowheres.com (the_blogologist) wrote:
>
> > I think it was a documentary on it I saw years ago that said in cases
> > where someone accidently put just a hand or food
i meant foot. lol
> > into red hot lava that
> > death was almost immediate from shock.
>
> So a fatality can occur simply from burning the hand? What causes the
> shock?
Lava is liquid from 1300 F to 2200 F. And being liquid it would tend to
stick to the flesh, not like touching red hot iron. I guess flesh burns
that fast it sends the nervous system into hyper drive.
Radium
> Radium <gluceg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On May 29, 4:08 pm, nob...@nowheres.com (the_blogologist) wrote:
> > > I think it was a documentary on it I saw years ago that said in cases
> > > where someone accidently put just a hand or foot
> > > into red hot lava that
> > > death was almost immediate from shock.
> > So a fatality can occur simply from burning the hand? What causes the
> > shock?
> Lava is liquid from 1300 F to 2200 F. And being liquid it would tend to
> stick to the flesh, not like touching red hot iron.
Red-hot solid is bad enough. Yellow-hot liquid -- now that's some
scary stuff! Incandescent yellow is usually significantly hotter than
incandescent red. Always wondered why they picked "red" for "hot",
when its yellow that's the real scorcher.
>I guess flesh burns
> that fast it sends the nervous system into hyper drive.
Interesting. Is this like neurogenic shock from intense pain? Acute
excruciating pain is known to kill by causing an extreme
parasympathetic reaction. OTOH, the fatality could be caused by the
shock of such a serious injury. Any doctors here?
Sjouke Burry
>> AFAIK, an oxyacetylene flame is hot-enough to vaporize steel so it
>> must be hot enough to do the same to the skull within a similar time
>> frame.
>
> You aren't an engineer, or much of a "handi-man"....are you!
Radium is trolling with STUPID questions on several
groups.
In an electronics group with about 6 crossposts,
about photonic computers, multi milion 1hz parallel
processors, and and adding more stupid suggestions
as the discusions go along.
He is either stupid, or doing it on purpose, or both.
Gerard Fryer
Some years ago a volcanologist lost his footing and half fell into a
lava river on Kilauea. The guy with him grabbed him so only one leg
went into the lava.
There are two things you have to know about basalt lava: first, it is
very dense, so you don't sink far. Second, volcanic glass is a very
good insulator.
The guy went in above the knee. The lava against his leg chilled over
to form a tough insulating skin of glass. In the few seconds he was in
the lava he received serious burns, but not so serious that he lost the
leg.
If you fall into a lava lake, you'll end up on top of the lava rather
than in it. The high density of the lava means you don't sink far, and
the glassed-over surface is very tough and will probably hold you out
of the liquid (and any part of you that punches through the glass will
itself quickly glass over). All lava lakes are covered by a layer of
glass, so the only incandescent lava you see is at the upwelling
"spreading centers" and at tensional fractures that break through the
"subducting" plates. (Lava lakes are a wonderful analogy for plate
tectonics--the surface chills in seconds to form a glassy plate. The
plates separate along spreading centers, slide past each other along
transform faults, and sink one beneath the other at subduction zones.
See http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Products/Pglossary/LavaLake.html or
google "Kupaianaha".
So if you fall into a lava lake and someone can get a line to you
quickly, you'll survive. If you're there for more than a couple of
minutes, though, you'll croak. The reason you'll croak is something
Hollywood always forgets: lava is plurry hot. After you have been on a
lava lake for more than a couple of minutes your lungs will be seared
and you'll get no oxygen.
Perhaps the silliest volcano movie was "Volcano!" (The Coast is Toast)
in which LaBrea tar pits erupted (!). At one point a bunch of firemen
dam an advancing lava flow with highway dividers or some such. They
look over the dam wall at the lava, congratulating themselves. That
scene raised howls of laughter here in Hawaii. Most of us in the
audience had walked on active lava flows, so we knew that anyone as
blase as those firemen would get his eyebrows and eyelashes singed off.
The next most idiotic scene in that movie was when someone jumped off
the back of a subway car and stepped on an advancing lava tongue. In
violation of conservation of mass, the 1.8m human completely melted
into 2-cm-deep lava without the lava growing at all in volume. More
laughter. In reality the guy could just have walked through that stuff
and suffered no more than his shoes catching fire or, more likely, the
glue holding the soles of his shoes melting and the soles coming off
(never, never explore new lava without a roll of duct tape in your
pack).
don findlay
Gerard Fryer wrote:
> (Lava lakes are a wonderful analogy for plate
> tectonics--the surface chills in seconds to form a glassy plate. The
> plates separate along spreading centers, slide past each other along
> transform faults, and sink one beneath the other at subduction zones.
> See http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Products/Pglossary/LavaLake.html or
> google "Kupaianaha".
Is that a bit like the scum on the boiling Jam forming the
continents? Or is it faster than that ( ..seeing we're dealing with
real rock-making stuff? ).
"Separate on spreading centres"...? How come? You mean the whole
spreading centre separates by ten centimetres each year to give the
movement measured on the plate? Yes?/No? That's gotta be piss-
weak. Or do you mean that a 'big one' - a number two - goes off, and
is then dissipated the whole way around to average out at ten
centimetres?
And then it's only the bit of the transform at the ridge that
works, ..the bit between the ridges. The rest of the transform length
there is no movement on at all. It's all 'locked'. So the only way
there can be movement is if the ridge gets pushed up, which the
profile of the ridge shows us.
"Sink one beneath the other"...? But it's not a plate, ..it's a pile
of rubble after all these hundreds of millions of years of getting
shattered by earthquakes every day. How does it have the coherence to
'sink-as-a-plate' ('slab')? And the USGS says anyway (and nasa) that
the other plate overrides the one - not the other way round.
Overriding (due to spin - as the global tectonics show) is not the
same as subduction (due to convection).
You're peddling Stuart's bullshit bike Gerald, ..aren't you. And it's
a shocking colour. You should be ashamed of yourself, an old coot
like you...
don findlay
Anyhow, ..seeing you're in the land of the paheyho, being "wonderful
stuff for a Plate Tectonic analogy" as you say, ..what do you make of
this analogy for crustal crumpling:-
http://users.indigo.net.au/don/to/iranrope.html
??
Do you reckon it's a goer? Do you reckon it 'peddles' - better than
Stu's old clapped out clanger with no brakes? According to Stu,
India has to be moving west for Pakistan, north for the Himalayas, and
East for Burma - all at the same time... Do you believe that? Or
are you oanother trying to pull the wool over our eyes?
Hey, ..some trick, ..eh? ...don't you reckon? (Talk about standing
on handlebars with one leg.)
("Scientists believe...")
MelodiousThunk
On May 31, 1:16 pm, Gerard Fryer <ger...@NUTShawaii.rr.com> wrote:
don findlay
You've lost the plot, you lot, if the best you can find to talk about
is Hollywood's rendition of geology. (not for the first time
either). Will no-one even have a go at answering the objections
(posts immediately above) against Plate Tectonics? Come on, the
reality is far more onerous a challenge! You stand already indicted
of pissing public money up against the wall. Don't soak the place.